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New AACS Crack Called "Undefeatable"

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the go-ahead-revoke-all-the-keys dept.

Media 554

Tuoqui writes "With all the focus on the infamous hexadecimal number, people may be ignoring a bigger weakness in the AACS armor, which emerged two weeks ago. Some hackers have figured out how to crack AACS in a way that cannot be defeated, even by revoking all the keys in circulation."

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Not a good start for the morning (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973009)

I'm just enjoying my coffee, and suddenly I'm faced with an article about somebody's crack!

Undefeatable Crack? (0, Offtopic)

slughead (592713) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973755)

Wesley Willis' mother [lyricstime.com] will be overjoyed!

Re:Not a good start for the morning (2, Funny)

spun (1352) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973831)

If you see a post with a link claiming "You could pound away at this crack with a jackhammer and not defeat it," or "An even bigger crack," or even "Expanding the crack," DO NOT CLICK IT!

FP! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973023)

Fust psot!

Got it! (3, Funny)

otacon (445694) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973025)

Oh I know, don't use HD-DVD...there...defeated.

Re:Got it! (5, Interesting)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973077)

Blu-ray will be effected too, since it uses AACS. Of course, Blu-ray has an added layer of protection which they've never actually used before. This will prompt Sony to tout Blu-ray to studios as a solution to the crack. It will also prompt Sony to cry when, exactly 5 minutes after it's first used, a hacker cracks it too.

Re:Got it! (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973121)

Really? I thought Blu-ray already existed, how can it be effected? Oh, did you mean affected?

Re:Got it! (5, Funny)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973269)

I think you mean "effect," as in "Grammar Nazis are very effective at repelling women."

Re:Got it! (2)

aproposofwhat (1019098) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973323)

Damn, I wish I hadn't used all my mod points already :-)

That's the nicest Grammar Nazi putdown I've seen in ages.

Kudos to you!

Re:Got it! (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973905)

According to MW it's "put-down" [m-w.com]

Re:Got it! (4, Funny)

WED Fan (911325) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973657)

Sony has the added security feature in that in a few short years, like Betamax, MiniDisc, etc, the Sony backed format will fail, players and computer devices will disappear and the format will be safe from cracking. Security Through Undesired Format.

Re:Got it! (5, Funny)

An ominous Cow art (320322) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973809)

Security Through Undesired Format.
Sounds like a good name for a standard. Perhaps we can use the French form of the acronym, STFU. :-)

Re:Got it! (2, Informative)

Fittysix (191672) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973155)

Not really, both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray both use AACS.
There may not be a compromised Blu-Ray drive (yet) but this will allow people to discover weaknesses in AACS itself, just like it was discovered afterwards that the CSS key on DVDs could easily have been brute forced within 24 hours.

Re:Got it! (1)

otacon (445694) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973205)

Agreed...ultimatly I think this won't lead to the death of *both* formats but the slow adoption nonetheless.

Re:Got it! (1)

InsaneProcessor (869563) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973489)

Slow adoption, YES! I still won't buy any HD equipment of any kind. All of my current 3:4 standard def stuff works great. Why fix it, if it ain't broke?

Undefeatable? (5, Funny)

Rik Sweeney (471717) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973029)

Nothing for you to see here. Please move along.

Huh, looks like the new strategy is issuing DMCA Takedown orders against anyone who suggests that it is undefeatable...

Re:Undefeatable? (5, Funny)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973191)

Funny, when you said "DMCA" I heard a loud thump. It sounded a lot like Kevin Rose's knees hitting the floor.

Oh, wait a minute...I think I hear a zipper too.

Re:Undefeatable? (5, Insightful)

Bonker (243350) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973821)

Interestingly enough, there is a very real defeat of the DMCA here: massive disobedience.

The DMCA is an unpopular law passed by surreptitious means. The more people run into it, the more they're disgusted with it.

Most Americans don't feel that it is ethically wrong to behave in ways that the DMCA marks as illegal. Worse, they're inconvenienced by the law and are actively looking for workarounds for the technology it impacts.

The Digg vs. Hex number story is a good example. Digg tried to comply with the law, but its users revolted and forced the site's admins to acquiesce. Even if Digg is shut down by federal authorities, arresting thousands of users for posting a 32bit number is going to prove... difficult.

The RIAA's spam lawsuit settlements have proven that it's massively difficult and probably more trouble than it's worth to go after widespread casual copyright infringement. Widespread casual DMCA infringement, like many other 'casual' crimes simply won't be prosecutable to the degree even the most vicious police force would like.

The Doom9 Xbox crack is much the same. It's certainly a very technical challenge to the AACS scheme. Both its undertaking and disseminating how it's done is illegal under the DMCA. However, nobody cares any more.

What's the worst that can happen? You get arrested, have to pay a fine, and maybe even go to jail. The RIAA is already trying to apply that same punishment to innocent people.

Obeying this law doesn't even carry the benefit of being free from prosecution. Why should anyone worry about breaking it if those behind it are going to press charges anyway?

The DMCA is dead-- killed by apathy.

I reject your reality and substitute my own (4, Funny)

rambag (961763) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973039)

"I reject your AACS crack and substitute my own"

Perhaps if this is proven to be true.... (3, Insightful)

8127972 (73495) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973049)

.... Then maybe media companies will give up this DRM non-sense which does nothing but frustrate consumers and slow the adoption rate of digital media in the mass market.

I'll believe it when me shit turns purple (4, Insightful)

Itchyeyes (908311) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973161)

If they didn't learn anything from the countless other times this has happened to other forms of DRM, I don't know what makes you think they'll learn anything from this one.

Re:Perhaps if this is proven to be true.... (2, Insightful)

aadvancedGIR (959466) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973223)

Not a chance. A more likely outcome would be that only pirates would be able to read genuine HD disks after all the keys would have been invalidated.

Get 'em while you can (5, Interesting)

Kadin2048 (468275) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973081)

Basically this crack relies on using a Microsoft HD-DVD drive for the XBox 360, with a special firmware patch (which requires you to remove the firmware chip, flash it, and then solder it back in). With a hacked drive, you can apparently get the Volume ID, which is one of the parameters used in the encryption, directly off of the disc. Normally the Volume ID isn't passed to the host computer, I think.

Anyway, in the bizarro-world that the people who write DRM systems inhabit, I think that this will probably just push them to make the drives harder to "tamper" with; I fully expect that they'll eventually just pot the circuit boards in epoxy or something, to keep you from desoldering the chips.

So if you're interested in this stuff, you might as well go out and get one of the MS drives or other first-gen drives, because I suspect the hacking possibilities may decrease over time; it's going to be these early drives which are the most hackable.

Re:Get 'em while you can (4, Funny)

boarder8925 (714555) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973159)

So if you're interested in this stuff, you might as well go out and get one of the MS drives or other first-gen drives, because I suspect the hacking possibilities may decrease over time; it's going to be these early drives which are the most hackable.
I'll buy one now in the hopes of selling it in a few years, when people will probably be willing to pay for a moddable drive.

Re:Get 'em while you can (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973299)

I'll buy one now in the hopes of selling it in a few years, when people will probably be willing to pay for a moddable drive.

Good thinking. After all, what better investment over time than computer hardware. I can't even begin to imagine how much I could get for my Atari 800 now. And to think I paid only $1,000 for it! But I'm no fool. I'm passing this one down to my grandkids to help fund their college education.

Re:Get 'em while you can (1)

Threni (635302) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973477)

> I'll buy one now in the hopes of selling it in a few years, when people will probably be willing to pay for a moddable drive.

Assuming it's not `timed-out`. What do they call that feature on the 360? The `ring of death` I think.

Re:Get 'em while you can (1, Insightful)

NitroWolf (72977) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973575)

Why would you bother to do this? There only needs to be one hackable drive out there (which is already out there, obviously) - and the keys can be retrieved from each new disc that comes out and posted online. Then any HD-DVD drive can read them with the appropriate software.

Additionally, you could also just download the un-encrypted version of the movie in question and burn it to your own HD-DVD or Blu-Ray and go from there.

No need to stockpile hackable drives... one or two would be sufficient. There's thousands, so I think we're safe for a while.

Re:Get 'em while you can (1)

eimsand (903055) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973173)

Good points, though I think making drives tamper proof will still only delay the inevitible.

The only way to *truly* secure something is to prevent physical access. At this current time, that's not possible.

If they start encasing circuit boards in epoxy then there is little doubt that people will soon be taking hammers and chisels to their HD-DVD players. Given the time, they will gain access.

Re:Get 'em while you can (5, Funny)

miskatonic alumnus (668722) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973465)

If they start encasing circuit boards in epoxy then there is little doubt that people will soon be taking hammers and chisels to their HD-DVD players.

Then they really will be cracking them.

Maybe it's just me... (2, Funny)

thegnu (557446) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973217)

I fully expect that they'll eventually just pot the circuit boards in epoxy or something

But wouldn't that make it hard to fry eggs on your XBOX? I mean, who are you kidding?

Re:Maybe it's just me... (1)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973761)

Given the insulating properties of epoxy, I'd have to say no. Definitely would make it easier to roast marshmallows over one after the resin catches on fire though.

Constraining physical access to circuit boards would be easy if airflow wasn't such a big issue.

Re:Get 'em while you can (3, Informative)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973237)

I think that this will probably just push them to make the drives harder to "tamper" with; I fully expect that they'll eventually just pot the circuit boards in epoxy or something, to keep you from desoldering the chips.

that did not even slow me down in the 80's and early 90's with the VideoCipher II boards. After 1 week we found a easy way to "unpot" the board and continue on.

I personally hope they try it, it will be amusic to watch their attempts fail as they try things that early hackers defeated decades ago.

Re:Get 'em while you can (3, Insightful)

networkBoy (774728) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973757)

And that is because hackers are much better at retaining tribal knowledge. Hackers tend to stay around a while, as their physical presence and on-line presence are disparate things, while corp. drones move to new jobs, taking the little bits of knowledge with them, as their on-line presence and physical presence within the company are immutable. New company, new on-line & physical presence, you are completely unavailable to your old company (there are exceptions of course, but the norm is the overwhelming majority).

Re:Get 'em while you can (4, Informative)

mhall119 (1035984) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973417)

Anyway, in the bizarro-world that the people who write DRM systems inhabit, I think that this will probably just push them to make the drives harder to "tamper" with; I fully expect that they'll eventually just pot the circuit boards in epoxy or something, to keep you from desoldering the chips.

The article is a little old, the links to the doom9 forum go to posts from early last month. Within a few days of those posts, there was a link to xboxhackers where they were able to accomplish the same thing without having to patch the firmware, ie, no desoldering.

Didn't know they were there yet (mod parent up) (4, Interesting)

Kadin2048 (468275) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973795)

The article is a little old, the links to the doom9 forum go to posts from early last month. Within a few days of those posts, there was a link to xboxhackers where they were able to accomplish the same thing without having to patch the firmware, ie, no desoldering.

That's pretty interesting. (In TFA the [hack|crack]er is quoted as saying that one of their goals is to eventually be able to pull the Volume Unique Key from the drive without a hardware hack, but he made it seem pretty far off.) I didn't know they had gotten to that point already.

Slightly OT: I'm really hoping that someone will write up a good introduction to how AACS works, in semi-layman's terms. I've read the official AACS documentation (as much of it is public, anyway) and it's not the easiest thing in the world to get your head around, if it's not your field already. It's obvious these Doom9 guys know their shit, but it would be nice if somebody made some documentation just so the rest of us know what the hell is going on; AACS has so many keys and keyblocks and keys-within-keys-within-keys that I'm never quite clear what exactly they've cracked, or which key is required to read the actual content without any other intervention from the player.

It would really be good if Wikipedia handled that, but right now the AACS article is just a lot of news-bites about the progress of the hacking, and it's very light on the technical stuff (and it's currently locked due to some pissing contest or other).

Re:Get 'em while you can (5, Informative)

dave420 (699308) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973467)

This crack relies on just one person having one of these cracked drives, and using it to expose weaknesses that can be exploited on non-cracked hardware running custom software. Whether MS took these drives off the shelf tomorrow or not, it doesn't matter. The fact at least one cracked drive exists out there, in the hands of people looking to circumvent the DRM, means this crack can't be stopped. Us normal non-firmware-hacking types will have to wait for where this current hack takes us, as this is the first step to getting an unrevokable crack in the hands of johhny-no-soldering-iron.

Re:Get 'em while you can-MISSING THE POINT (5, Interesting)

Nom du Keyboard (633989) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973499)

You're missing the point here. Everybody doesn't have to do this. One person does this and posts Volume Keys for each new release, allowing everyone else to simply decode with the volume key. If this truly can't be revoked, then it doesn't matter it they make it inaccessible tomorrow. Not until every existing modded player breaks beyond repair would it be secure again.

Re:Get 'em while you can (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973545)

Anyway, in the bizarro-world that the people who write DRM systems inhabit, I think that this will probably just push them to make the drives harder to "tamper" with; I fully expect that they'll eventually just pot the circuit boards in epoxy or something, to keep you from desoldering the chips.


Normally I'd just tell you to see my .sig

But the last time I said that I was told my .sig was not that accurate [slashdot.org]

Having said that, I think you should just see my .sig

A single leak (1)

lullabud (679893) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973661)

The big problem with DRM is the fact that one leak is all it takes. After one person successfully removes the DRM from the protected media, it can be copied endlessly. So sure, HD-DVD might get harder to crack through physical lock-downs on the devices, but we'll still be able to download the results from a successfully cracked movie.

At what point... (-1, Troll)

ushering05401 (1086795) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973085)

Do we walk away. This issue is so stupid it is insulting. We could be discussing important issues but are wasting time on this.

My gripe on this issue is similar to my gripes about U.S. politics. The whole friggin system is irrelevant.

All apologies to those who feel that DRM is still a relevant freedom related issue... But I honestly feel that discussing this is just a drain on resources that could be directed towards more fertile topics.

I have no doubt that many /.ers can make arguments to the contrary, and I respect your opinions. Forgive me for being sick over this waste of intelligent resources.

Regards.

Back to the grindstone, fellows... (5, Funny)

Kadin2048 (468275) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973139)

All apologies to those who feel that DRM is still a relevant freedom related issue... But I honestly feel that discussing this is just a drain on resources that could be directed towards more fertile topics.

Yeah, like arguing the relative merits of Linux versus Windows, or Apple versus MS ... we were getting so close to a breakthrough there, I don't know how we got off-track.

Re:Back to the grindstone, fellows... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973193)

are you saying that vi vs. emacs has been settled ?

Re:Back to the grindstone, fellows... (1)

jeffasselin (566598) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973597)

Yes, it has been settled. You weren't around when the winner was announced officially?

Re:Back to the grindstone, fellows... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973779)

Yes, I read in an article where they took Vi and Emacs, converted the code into liquid and mixed them both in a sweet crucible. The resulting Vimacs was released and much like Electrum in D&D, nobody cared. Although Vimacs had the best features of both Vi and Emacs it suffered from a debilitating user color scheme that could not be changed as nobody wants to program in blood red characters on a black and white zig zag style background. There were a few reports of insanity reported but anybody who uses Vi or Emacs already ran that risk anyway.
Long story short. Use notepad.exe

Re:At what point... (5, Insightful)

boarder8925 (714555) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973201)

All apologies to those who feel that DRM is still a relevant freedom related issue...
DRM restricts what you can do with something you have paid for. How is that not a relevant freedom-related issue?

Re:At what point... (5, Insightful)

inviolet (797804) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973535)

DRM restricts what you can do with something you have paid for. How is that not a relevant freedom-related issue?

Them: "Hey, want to buy a movie?"
You: "Sure, how much?"
Them: "$100,000,000.00."
You: "F*** off."
Them: "Sorry, that was the price to purchase all rights to the movie, including redistribution and royalties. Would you like to buy a subset of those rights instead?"
You: "Sure, like what?"
Them: "How about, the right to public exhibition, and reproduction of media for sale, but no royalties? That'll be just $5,000,000.00."
You: "No thanks, too much."
Them: "How about, the right to public exhibition? Just $500,000.00."
You: "Do I look like I'm made of money?"
Them: "Sorry. How about, the right to private exhibition? Only $5."
You: "Now you're talkin'!"
Them: "So we have a deal?"
You: "Yep." [you hand them a fiver, and they hand you a DVD.]
Them: "Have a nice day."
You: "Hey, wait, this DVD is copy-protected! I want to copy it!"
Them: "Yes, sorry, we didn't sell you the right to do that. If you have more money -- equal to the amount we'll lose on average for each copy-producing customer -- you can buy that right too."
You: "But I paid for this!" [you shake the DVD at them]
Them: "Do you understand that you paid for limited ownership, and that you consented to the limits stated and known to you at the time of sale?"
You: "No, I'm too dumb-stupid to grasp that. I can only handle concrete meanings of the idea of ownership."
Them: "Yeah, we figured. You probably also think HOAs are usurping your god-given right to paint your house pink, eh?"

Certainly the movie studios are obnoxiously attempting to prevent format-shifting, in order to sell you the same movie twice. But that doesn't mean they are violating any of your rights.

Re:At what point... (5, Insightful)

laughingcoyote (762272) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973893)

Or, there's always "Hey, I want to exercise my rights under fair use laws, which have always existed and which you don't have to pay a penny for." Or "Hey, I want to exercise my private-exhibition right (which I paid you for) on a platform of my choosing." Or "I want to make a backup of this, so I can continue to exercise that private-exhibition right (which, again, I paid you for) if my kids scratch the crap out of the original." It's not quite so black-and-white as you put it there.

Re:At what point... (5, Insightful)

sconeu (64226) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973955)

Except for one thing... That's not what they're selling.

They are selling you an entire physical copy, which you can do whatever the hell you want, short of selling copies.

Look at their advertising. They don't say, "Purchase a license to private exhibition today!" They say, "Own it on HD-DVD, today!!!".

Re:At what point... (3, Insightful)

naasking (94116) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973973)

There is a rule in security: "Don't Prohibit what you can't Prevent" [cap-lore.com] [1]. The same rule applies to laws.

Re:At what point... (1)

Shatrat (855151) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973557)

DRM restricts what you can do with something you have paid for. How is that not a relevant freedom-related issue?
Because nobody makes you pay for it.
If I want to pay somebody to chain me up and spank me that isn't a freedom related issue either.

Re:At what point... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973271)

Ah yes. US politics is totally irrelevant. Ignoring the fact that this is a US centered site, I'll be sure to remind you of that when bush throws his "going away" bombing in your country.

So I am a Troll eh? (-1, Offtopic)

ushering05401 (1086795) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973407)

Think about this for a second.

I didn't post a single negative comment about cracking DRM. There are simply more important things to be discussing than our access to privatley generated content such as movies.

But forgive me. The first thing I read upon waking up was that gunmen had siezed hostages in Nigeria, my congress was folding over the Iraq withdrawal, and certain drugs commonly prescribed to menopausal women were significant contributors to cancer.

Why am I modded Troll for thinking that having access to movies is really an insignificant issue? I wasn't even disrespectful. Then again, I have liked very few things Hollywood has produced anytime recently.

Regards.

Re:So I am a Troll eh? (-1, Offtopic)

NitroWolf (72977) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973543)

Of course you are a troll. You are on a technology forum (Or did the "News for Nerds" confuse you?) and you're in a topic about AACS and you're trying to talk about politics and shit totally unrelated to the topic. That's trolling. You want to start a discussion on an irrelevant topic by using inflammatory wording about what's supposedly "important" and what isn't. Of course, what's important is YOUR definition of it... so yes, that's the definition of a troll and you have been modded appropriately.

Alright so tell me... (1)

ushering05401 (1086795) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973613)

Where is it appropriate to say 'let Hollywood take their ball and go home?'

Regards.

Re:Alright so tell me... (0)

NitroWolf (72977) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973835)

On a political forum.

Perhaps, with a stretch, on a YRO posted topic on Slashdot devoted entirely to the political ramifications of DRM, as opposed to one devoted to the technical issues surrounding DRM.

Re:So I am a Troll eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973939)

you have been modded appropriately
I think I might make that my new sig. That made me laugh!

Re:So I am a Troll eh? (0, Offtopic)

rueger (210566) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973599)

That's why I read Wonkette [wonkette.com] first, then Slashdot second!

At least at Wonkette the editors can distinguish between fact and fiction... and they understand simple English grammar.

Re:So I am a Troll eh? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973715)

Because obnoxious fucking twat was not listed on the moderation options?

Points finger of blame (2, Funny)

Rik Sweeney (471717) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973095)

"No matter how many Private Host Keys they revoke we will still be able to get Volume IDs using patched xbox 360 HD DVD drives."

I hope the hacker isn't suggesting that this whole encryption key debackle is somehow Microsoft's fault, could you imagine the lawsuit?

Re:Points finger of blame (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973537)

Actually it'd be Toshiba's fault as they made the drive. It's ironic too, because Toshiba is the primary developer of HD-DVD.

Re:Points finger of blame (1)

Quantam (870027) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973985)

I hope the hacker isn't suggesting that this whole encryption key debackle is somehow Microsoft's fault, could you imagine the lawsuit?

Been there, done that, got modded insightful. [slashdot.org]

OT the digg revolt (1, Offtopic)

Sark666 (756464) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973107)

I wanted to show a friend what happened on digg, and went back a few days and can barely find any of the hd dvd key stories. I know kevin rose posted that entry saying they basically give up, and the users have spoken kind of thing, but at the same time it seems all those additional stories are gone as well.

Re:OT the digg revolt (1)

aadvancedGIR (959466) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973399)

Given that there were about 50 people actually interested by that key (they all have it now) and a few hundreds of thousands that found the thing funny (but who lost interest for something else a few hours later), that's quite normal. Anyway, since there are now far more people knowing that key that the number they can actually sue or force into submission, it is a large victory for the pirates since their secret code is not only de facto public domain, but also made ridiculous.

Let's celebrate DRM (4, Insightful)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973113)

Punishing legitimate customers since it's inception. I got reminded of this again today after not being able to play a DVD in my Powerbook because of region encoding. Funny thing is, this DVD is only really of extreme local interest and any outside interest/sales are negligible - since it's only sold in one region so why do the authors enforce region encoding? Do they not know what it is?

Maybe it's better to pirate afterall. Less hassles that way.

Re:Let's celebrate DRM (2, Insightful)

Billosaur (927319) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973275)

The fact is, this is a losing battle for the MAFIAA... Any DRM scheme that can be dreamed up can be cracked eventually. They would benefit more form making their content easily accessible, readily available, and cheap enough for people to get at that piracy becomes a background issue. Eventually, all that content is going to get from DVDs to the Internet -- if I were them I'd given up trying to stop people via DRM and start trying to woo people by giving some content away.

Eventually (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973837)

True, but they aren't really trying to protect their movies from being copied. If they really wanted, they could use 2048bits RSA keys to protect their content like MS DRMs 360 games. AACS was weak even before the first blu-ray or hd-dvd was released. The drm in the discs only serve as way0 for them to enforce DMCA. DRM+DMCA is somewhat good copyright protection.

You got that right. (3, Informative)

Kadin2048 (468275) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973419)

HandBrake [m0k.org] is your friend.

With the size of today's hard drives, carrying around physical DVDs to watch on one's Powerbook just seems silly. Rip 'em (I personally think most movies look fine using MPEG-4 2-pass, target size of 700MB) and chuck 'em on your hard drive; uses a lot less battery power and it's one less thing to have to keep in your laptop bag.

Re:Let's celebrate DRM (2, Informative)

alices ice (699932) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973551)

hi, just checking you've heard that the freeware player VLC ignores the region coding on DVDs and will play them just fine in OSX

Re:Let's celebrate DRM (1)

Richard W.M. Jones (591125) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973673)

hi, just checking you've heard that the freeware player VLC ignores the region coding on DVDs and will play them just fine in OSX

VLC is great, but unfortunately it doesn't help with RPC-2 drives which don't have firmware cracks -- such as the Matsushita DVD drive in my old iBook. In these drives, the firmware reads the disk and won't even deliver up the blocks to software layers. If hardware can ever be called evil, then this is surely it.

Rich.

Poor Sony? (3, Funny)

shawnmchorse (442605) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973177)

I have to wonder if the huge amount of HD-DVD hack coverage lately is starting to make Sony wish that someone would spend more time hacking Blu-Ray. There's no such thing as bad press?

Re:Poor Sony? (4, Informative)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973511)

I have to wonder if the huge amount of HD-DVD hack coverage lately is starting to make Sony wish that someone would spend more time hacking Blu-Ray. There's no such thing as bad press?


Sony's probably really happy about it, actually. If they can show that HD-DVD is worthless, studios will drop it in favor of the far more DRM-heavy Blu-Ray.

There are things that Blu-Ray could use (they're in the spec) but possibly aren't at the moment.

Basically, HD-DVD only has AACS to protect it. It doesn't have region coding (yet?) or other crap that just didn't work on DVD (someone at the DVD Forum saw the writing on the wall for region codes and just didn't put them in for HD-DVD). Every HD-DVD/DVD combo has the Region 1 logo, followed by "DVD Only" - implying that the region code is strictly for the DVD part. Same goes on the HD-DVD player - Region 1 logo, "DVD Only".

Blu-Ray has the BD+ protection, plus something they call ROM Mark. And of course, region codes. Though, Sony at least tried to be reasonable, and instead of the 9-odd regions of DVD, they reduced it to 3. ROM Mark protection basically says every Blu-Ray disc has to have a fingerprint that tells the type of the disc, and who pressed it. So if a flood of pressed Blu-Ray discs come out, the Blu-Ray association can find out who pressed it, pull their license and shut them down. (And discs without said mark... just don't work). It also keeps stuff like movies from being played if they're on the wrong medium (e.g., BD-R).

Blu-Ray is far more technologically advanced (25GB/layer) than HD-DVD, however, the latter makes use of existing DVD production lines (trivial upgrade, which is why HD-DVD/DVD flipper discs are around), and uses lessons learned about DVDs to produce a better product (like the uselessness of region coding). I suspect that the DVD production tools also underwent just minor changes (support for new codecs and JavaScript) since the HD-DVD releases seem to be of better quality despite the fact that they're 20GB smaller (dual layer BD vs. dual layer HD-DVD) to fit the data... (extras and everything).

Re:Poor Sony? (2, Insightful)

|/|/||| (179020) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973639)

I don't know, but "easily hackable" is certainly one of my top criteria in picking a format. HD-DVD is getting a lot of very good press the past couple of days.

The funny thing is, that means I would actually *buy* movies in the hackable format. I wouldn't make copies, I would purchase physical disks! I'm not interested in distributing copies, either - but if I want to cut out clips from movies and edit them together, or if I want to add funny subtitles for my own entertainment, or if I want to copy the data to a streaming server, or if I want to do a million other things with my copy of the data, then I'll be damned if I'm gonna buy it in a format with DRM that I can't easily get around.

HD-DVD is in the lead. (Yes, I know Blu-Ray uses AACS, but HD-DVD is the one getting all of the press coverage!)

Erm (2, Insightful)

KinkoBlast (922676) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973185)

Erm, how is this undefetable? If they don't mind sacraficeing the 360, couldn't whoever manages these things revoke its keys and not issue new ones, so that it can't get the volume key, so it can't decrypt the disk?

I'm probably misunderstanding something, though

Re:Erm (2, Informative)

Viol8 (599362) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973433)

All this crack needs is for the drive hardware to work. It matters not whether the 360 can decrypt the disk itself further down the line , all the crackers need is the raw info from the disk provided by the hacked firmware.

Re:Erm (1)

mhall119 (1035984) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973579)

Erm, how is this undefetable? If they don't mind sacraficeing the 360, couldn't whoever manages these things revoke its keys and not issue new ones, so that it can't get the volume key, so it can't decrypt the disk?

I'm probably misunderstanding something, though
The device key is used to retrieve the processing key, which is used to fetch the volume ID, which is then used to create a volume unique key, which is used to get the content decryption key, which finally is used to decrypt the movie.

These guys found a way to get the volume ID directly, meaning you don't need any of the earlier steps, including the device key. Revoking it would have no effect on this process.

Re:Erm (1)

Goaway (82658) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973991)

Er, that's not quite it.

You need both a Volume ID and a processing key (I think it was, anyway, this gets confusing) to get the final key.

It has been hard to get the volume ID, this makes it easier. But you still need the other parts, for which there is no reliable hack, only temporary ones.

Re:Erm (1)

pixelpusher220 (529617) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973647)

the reason it's undefeatable is the 'keys' that the MPAA can revoke only protect the 'Volume ID' on the physical HD-DVD media. This 'Volume ID' is then used to decrypt the actual movie content.

By doing some soldering they are able to read the 'Volume ID' in plain text, thus negating any key revoking that can be done.

As the post says, by knowing the 'Volume ID' they can now search the physical media for where this is stored. This will let them have a method for extracting the 'Volume ID' from any AACS protected disc.

And yes I'm probably missing something in the translation as well, but that's the general idea.


Re:Erm (1)

91degrees (207121) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973759)

But isn't the Volume ID encrypted using a number of device keys? Whereby each player uses a device key to get at the volume ID. So the only way the Volume ID is going to be in plain is if the HDDVD can actually be read by the XBox 360. If every XBOx 360 key is revoked, then they'll have to flash a different player's chip. If every key is revoked, then they'll actually end up with a secure anti-copy mechanism. The only downside being that no payer will play the disc.

dear music/ movie industry: (5, Insightful)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973187)

you are attempting to control the flow of ones and zeros in a world where an electronic communication system designed to withstand a nuclear attack is now ubiquitous

you should give up. you've lost, and will keep losing. it's just silly to keep going down this path. there is only more pain in store for you

people will still make movies. people will still make music. it's just that your particular pre-internet business model is now obsolete

go ask the aztecs or the incans if the appearance of new technology was fair to their empires

it wasn't. but it didn't stop technology in the form of gunpowder and sailing ships and metal armor from rendering them obsolete

so it is with you and the internet

sorry

reality is a bitch

Re:dear music/ movie industry: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#18973325)

did you miss the story about the homeless guy who burned down the intartubes?

PS my captcha was "bitches" - i loled

Re:dear music/ movie industry: (3, Insightful)

stubear (130454) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973459)

"people will still make movies. people will still make music."

I can't wait to see all the product placement blockbusters. And all those ad-laden songs are going to be really cool to dance to. </sarcasm>

Just because distribution is easier on the internet does not give anyone with access to a computer the right to distribute content they do not hold the copyrights to. Many new services of downloadable content are springing up and work just fine and they support the production studios. Use them if you want to download movies/music or don't consume copyrighted entertainment. It is really they simple.

Re:dear music/ movie industry: (4, Insightful)

sconeu (64226) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973793)

Just because distribution is easier on the internet does not give anyone with access to a computer the right to distribute content they do not hold the copyrights to.

Who said anything about that?

I buy a [HD-]DVD. I want to play it on my $OS-OF-CHOICE box, as well as my set-top box. However the [HD-]DVD consortium refuses to license a $OS-OF-CHOICE player. Therefore, I need to crack their DRM to make use of my legally purchased [HD-]DVD.

do you own slaves? (0)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973869)

you don't? good for you. but stop criticizing me. i bought my slaves fair and square

"Just because emancipation made some slaves free does not give anyone the right to ask that other slaves be set free. Many new territories out West are being opened up and work just fine without slaves and they produce good crops. Buy from them if you want to consume slavery-free agriculture. It is really that simple."

no, it's not that simple. when a change comes, it comes. it's not about choosing not to respect a law, it's about being unable to respect a law. the paradigm of looking at ones and zeros as freeflowing is not able to respect the world where ones and zeros could or should or would be somehow controlled. in a fundamental way the template doesn't fit the world anymore. speaking the language of copyright on the internet is like someone speaking quechua to someone who only understand spanish: there is no possibility of working together. copyright law was written in an age when only a handful of corporate players could distribute music. now any teenager in his basement can perform the same function an entire corporate behemoth was needed for in 1980. the previous world was easy to police. the new one is impossible to

but of course grumpy old men who don't understand what fundamental change means can still write all sorts of laws attempting to control the flow of bits

grumpy old men: meet poor, highly motivated, unimpressed with copyright, technologically literate teenagers

you tell me who prevails

i'm not asking you to tell me what SHOULD happen, i'm asking you to tell yourself what WILL happen

right and wrong is not the issue. how society understands how things work is the issue. and that has fundamentally changed, inexorably. is it wrong that the best archer in the english army, who has devoted his life to the pursuit of marksmanship, can be defeated by a machine gun in the hands of a blind drunk? is it unfair? yes, it is wrong, and yes, it is unfair. BUT IT IS ALSO JUST THE WAY IT IS. accpet it. move on. the era your mind clings and its legal structures is over, defeated, antiquated, dissolved

it's called "progress"

many an era in human history ends with a few old die hards bitter and clinging to the past and the way things used to work and the way things "should" work and the way things "always worked fine" and the way thing "by moral provenance is the only way to work"

blah blah blah

are you one of those fossils?

Counter-example: Digital TV (1)

Dice Fivefold (640696) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973737)

You are wrong, there are actually places where DRM works for the distributors: A couple of years ago it was possible to buy pirated cards for your satellite-TV receiver, so you could watch all channels for free. People had been doing this since the 80's. Every time the operators invented a new encryption, it was soon cracked and new pirated cards was out for sale. But this ended a couple of years ago, when the current encryption schemes (like Viaccess) was introduced. No one has been able to crack these schemes and most people has lost hope that they ever will be cracked. So the TV networks won in the end. But I guess now people download their their TV-shows with bit torrent instead.

OLD NEWS (1)

legallyillegal (889865) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973199)

Published: April 15, 2007 - 11:30PM CT

teehee. it was inevitable. (4, Informative)

apodyopsis (1048476) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973233)

a fitting quote might be:-

"what physical science can devise and synthesize, physical science can analyse and duplicate" - e. e. doc smith (one of my favorite authors).

sorry almost forgot the obligatory 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0!

Re:teehee. it was inevitable. (1)

germansausage (682057) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973381)

So the MPAA just needs to get Blu-ray/HD-DVD players from Arisia. Problem solved.

Re:teehee. it was inevitable. (1)

curmudgeous (710771) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973983)

It's a good thing the Lens was as much philosophical as physical, otherwise we'd have no way of telling the good buys from the bad guys.

Undefeatable is a relative term... (1)

minotaurcomputing (775084) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973297)

While this scheme may not be defeated, I certainly can by strong armed legal tactics by the movie industry likely to stem from my using this approach.
-m

The Art of Information (4, Interesting)

Nom du Keyboard (633989) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973331)

For a real laugh, check-out the formerly-known-as Secret Number as Photoshop art. [wired.com] My personal favorite is #12. The funniest part of all was as I went through the list, an animated ad for Blu-Ray high-definition movie playback popped in after image #9. It doesn't get better than that!

Old News (1)

Nom du Keyboard (633989) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973403)

Did anyone notice that this article is nearly 3 weeks old? Really on the ball there, Slashdot.

Re:Old News (1)

john83 (923470) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973615)

It took them that long to crack the encryption on it. ;)

Re:Old News (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973653)

Did anyone notice that this article is nearly 3 weeks old? Really on the ball there, Slashdot.

This is not a grouch, as I'm not particularly upset about this, but my submission on this topic was both timely and held pending for over a day before being rejected. I can never figure what makes the editors tick on this sort of thing.

I guess there is no news like old news.

Michael

Thanks! (3, Funny)

Applekid (993327) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973561)

Good, because now I don't have to admit I'm getting old and can't remember that 09 F-something something.

ZKP (2, Interesting)

wwmedia (950346) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973645)

i wonder why they didnt use a zero knowledge protocol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof [wikipedia.org] to defend them disks, bundling the keys with the cds is only delaying the inevitable

Well, what do you know. The inevitable happened. (5, Funny)

laughingcoyote (762272) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973733)

Developing an overblown DRM system: Millions of dollars.

Hiring consultants to tell you it'll really, really work this time after firing all the ones who informed you copy protection is a cryptographic impossibility: Thousands of dollars.

Paying lawyers to send cease-and-desist letters to thousands of websites after the key leaks: $500/hour.

Watching yet another DRM scheme go up in flames shortly after its release: Priceless.

Good News, Bad News (1)

mpapet (761907) | more than 7 years ago | (#18973753)

The bad news is, once the media conglomerate PHB's stop taking meetings about next year's bonuses, they'll finally comprehend that storing private keys on the media they sell is a bad idea.

They'll force Trusted Platform Computing as a new and cheaper High Definition format. The private keys will then be stored on a smart card module. Smart cards run their own OS and are quite specifically designed to self-destruct in the event specific programmed communication protocols are not followed.

Bad guys just sniff the data channel then right? Well, the data channel will be encrypted (about version 3.0, but eventually) Then what? Then they you, your computer AND the media player device and your media are merely rented, just like cable TV with even more harm done to new/independent sources of media.

In the "ownership society" era we are in right now, the limits to your media will continue to expand. This is a perfect example of the consequences politically expedient "free market" and some Libertarian pablum. Those whacky Socialist/Communist ideas that Americans love to hate start looking pretty good. Of course, no American will admit it and call it something new, like "Consumer Friendly Media."

If you've read this far, then what are you going to do about it? Most likely just welcome our new media conglomerate overlords.

At what point is enough just enough already?! (5, Interesting)

blindd0t (855876) | more than 7 years ago | (#18974009)

I own 2 legitimately, untampered-with DVD players, several computers with DVD drives, and an old XBox. When I rent or purchase a DVD that I am unable to play on any of these devices, nothing makes me more livid (especially when I'm already moody because I'm hungry and planned to eat while watching the DVD). It's actually to the point now where I look at the back of the DVD to see who the publisher is before renting or purchasing it, because I've found my devices especially have trouble with Sony DVDs, of course. I've never even made a copy of a DVD or pirated any DVDs, but I can honestly say that as it becomes more painful for me to legitimately watch my DVDs, I will eventually be driven to circumvent their DRM entirely as that would be less painful of a process. It just pisses me off, but there are some movies I would really enjoy watching and owning a legitimate copy of, but I simply won't spend a penny of mine if Sony's name is on it. Furthermore, Sony's BS about hardware manufacturers needing to keep up-to-date with their latest DRM mechanisms doesn't bode well either - I'm not replacing any of these devices which work perfectly fine with the exception of their purposely fouled media.
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