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Miguel Plans Silverlight on Mono & Linux by Years End

CmdrTaco posted more than 6 years ago | from the how-does-miguel-get-to-be-a-vp dept.

Microsoft 350

El Lobo writes "The Mono open-source project will create a Linux version of Silverlight by the end of year, said Miguel de Icaza, a Novell vice president and head of Mono. Asked about plans for Linux, Microsoft executives have been non-committal, saying that it will depend on demand. But de Icaza, who is attending Mix, was able to commit without hesitating."

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350 comments

ItsATrap! (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18979891)

The way I see it, only Novell has a license to be releasing a Mono/Silverlight plugin with Linux. Anyone else who jumps on the bandwagon might get a nasty call from Microsoft Legal demanding that they pay up the $650 extortion fee. Or has Miguel conveniently forgotten that the XAML/WPF framework is Microsoft's proprietary technology? (For which I'm sure they have many patents and trademarks.)

Tag: itsatrap

Re:ItsATrap! (2, Insightful)

ZachPruckowski (918562) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980139)

I don't get it. That just means that if you want it, you just have to get it from Novell. Or Microsoft. I mean, if Novell has the license to distribute it, and they distribute it, then there should be no real issue. While I don't like Quicksilver (I trust MS less than Adobe, personally), I don't think Linux support will dramatically affect adoption, so this is at best a neutral move (possibly a positive one).

Re:ItsATrap! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980223)

The question is: does their license with Microsoft give them full rights to assign distribution privileges for Microsoft's technology? I can't see Microsoft signing over these kinds of rights under any circumstances, especially if they're looking to take up the SCO crusade more directly. Which means that any distro other than a Novell Distro will be in legal hot-water if they redistribute Mono/Silverlight.

Tag: itsatrap

I Want... (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980659)

I want PowerShill on Linux! I want all the power of piping and redirection, combined with the obscurity and insulation that comes with with binary obect orientation!

I know it's not all that, really. It's just that I need something to create columnar output that replaces Perl, which replaced awk...

On Linux platforms... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980821)

Adobe's Apollo (ActionScript3, Flex, AJAX, ..): YES!
M$'s Silverlight (MXML): NO! (10x times bad performance load/avgusers)
Mozilla's Firefox (Javascript, Tamarin, ..): YES!
Novell's Icaza Mono C#: NO! (10x times bad performance CPU/mem)
Sun Java SDK: YES!
IBM Java SDK: YES!

Are you of course with me?

Re:ItsATrap! (2, Insightful)

Locutus (9039) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981155)

this only works if your product only has an expected lifespan of 3 or 5 years. Basically the life of the MSFT / Novell license. Not worth it IMO.

LoB

this should make at least 2 persons happy (2, Funny)

ranjix (892606) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980229)

I don't know them, but I know they are out there..

Re:ItsATrap! (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980825)

Exactally.

So tell me again, we want this to run on *nix, why?

( and i wouldnt call it "extortion" if they really do own the IP rights.. its a licensing payment.. at least call it what it is. )

Re:ItsATrap! (1)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981125)

To release those who might be dependent on applications developed with it from the Windows codebase.

IP IS extortion. It's protection money you pay an organization so they won't use the power they have in our corrupt legal system to bring the power of the state to bear on you despite the fact that you have done no harm.

If you define installing an operating system on your computer in the privacy of your home or office as harm, you've either drifted a little too far into the abstract or you need to check your sense of entitlement at the door.

we'll see (2, Funny)

wizardforce (1005805) | more than 6 years ago | (#18979925)

it's a trap.

Re:we'll see (1, Interesting)

aichpvee (631243) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980195)

I can't believe it took that fool this long to announce that he was going to copy microsoft's crap again. Can't someone please lock this idiot up before he completely turns Linux into a broken, poor-man's windows.

I don't know how he got so influential in the first place, but all he seems to do is copy the worst ideas from windows. That is, when he's not copying the worst ideas from mac.

ha! (1)

cosmocain (1060326) | more than 6 years ago | (#18979951)

TFA:

The code for the Dynamic Language Runtime, which allows dynamic language programmers to create .Net applications


well, THAT'S one example for redundancy. *scnr*

Now we only need a name (5, Interesting)

miguel (7116) | more than 6 years ago | (#18979991)

Sebastien Pouliot suggested we call it "Moonlight" (anagram on Mono).

And I was thinking Silver-light in another language, bonus points if the script is good looking.

For instance, in Arabic it would be fad-da daw' ( ) which looks cool on a large font(thanks to Hisham Bardam for the translation) although it does not roll easily. We might need some shortening.

Miguel.

Re:Now we only need a name (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980155)

Go fuck yourself you little shit.

Go back to sucking Gates' cock and stop trying to fuck Linux up with your garbage.

Re:Now we only need a name (5, Funny)

NaCh0 (6124) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980251)

You know Miguel, I was thinking the same thing. Software names on linux are not obscure enough. Picking a name that can't even be written in latin characters would be the pinnacle of l337ness. Faddadaw' will conquer the market for sure.

Re:Now we only need a name (0, Troll)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980359)

Care to tell me why we need something that's a copy of something else that already runs on linux, to run on linux.

Re:Now we only need a name (1, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980447)



Care to tell me why we need something that's a copy of something else that already runs on linux, to run on linux.


Yes. Because Silverlight does not run on Linux.

Re:Now we only need a name (-1, Troll)

aichpvee (631243) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980717)

Just because garbage doesn't run on Linux isn't a reason to copy it just so it will. Seriously dude, stop shoving crap onto Linux and put your efforts to a good use. People who want to use a mac or windows DO use a mac or windows.

Linux is, and should be, so much more than a poor man's clone of either of these systems. The people who use Linux do so because they like it, not because it's free. If it were just about price any of us could have a "free" copy of windows too.

So please, please, please (we're all begging you!!!) do something constructive with your time, energy, and inexplicable influence. Or at least stop trying to destroy what we've got.

PS We all hate gnome, too. If we wanted the worst of mac combined with the worst of windows we'd just run vista!

Re:Now we only need a name (4, Insightful)

cgranade (702534) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981019)

Linux is, and should be, so much more than a poor man's clone of either of these systems. The people who use Linux do so because they like it, not because it's free. If it were just about price any of us could have a "free" copy of windows too.

...
PS We all hate gnome, too. If we wanted the worst of mac combined with the worst of windows we'd just run vista!
Thing is, we don't all hate GNOME. GNOME has some very innovative features, such as Beagle and the new GNOME File Chooser dialog, which make it ideal for some kinds of users. I personally prefer KDE for its superior customizability, but GNOME is by no means worthless. In the same way, I think that Mono has some very innovative features that are unique to it: Mono.Addins [mono-project.com] comes quickly to mind. Even outside of Mono, the Nemerle language [nemerle.org] is another great open-source addition to the .NET framework. The Gtk# engine is one of the most easy to use and powerful GUI frameworks yet made, and is only possible due to Mono. In short, please don't claim to represent all of Linux userdom when you spout off your hatred of GNOME and Mono. You don't.

I don't think that the word "innovative" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981179)

means what you think it means.

I swear, if I hear the word "innovative" in the wrong context one more time, I will puke on Bill Gates.

Re:Now we only need a name (1, Informative)

overshoot (39700) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980737)

Yes. Because Silverlight does not run on Linux.
And, assuming that your plan comes off, it still won't. It may run on (paid) copies of Novell/SuSE, but that's not the same thing.

Re:Now we only need a name (3, Insightful)

Movi (1005625) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981223)

Miguel, please. I believe you have the sincerest intensions in making Microsofts technology run on Linux (.Net). Mono is a great piece of technology - Banshee would not be without it.

However, i get the feeling like youre doing the devils work for Microsoft - youre spreading their technology when the market doesnt want it. What youre basically doing is helping the "bait and switch" strategy to work - and they get it for free (by making the community do it for them). Silverlight and the other runtime gizmo is not needed and not wanted in the Linux world. However oncw you do port it, some people will look at it, decide it's the fastes/first thing they found good-enough for thir project. Or even more possible, it gets a killer app. Now Microsoft kills your effort (or severs it badly thru legal-foo) and now the project is in shatters. Do you really want that?

.Net got remote attention because of Mono (i didnt meet any windows aplication except crap stuff like the ATi Control Panel that required .net), and i view that as a mixed bag of things. This however should be left alone to either rot or prevail - then the discussion if we should implement should begin.

Re:Now we only need a name (1)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981327)

Well, it looks a lot like Flash to me. I guess in one way this keeps Linux from playing keep up with MS if it does take off.

Re:Now we only need a name (1)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980451)

Sebastien Pouliot suggested we call it "Moonlight" (anagram on Mono).

Just Some Guy suggests that you call it Zunebrown, conveying both the F/OSS community's likely acceptance of the project, and the likeliness of Microsoft to let it to go without litigation if more than 3 people come to depend on it.

Re:Now we only need a name (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980669)

How about keeping the "mono" in there. You could call it "Monopolight" maybe.

Re:Now we only need a name (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981317)

or Monopolist

Re:Now we only need a name (1)

tenchiken (22661) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980731)

It seems to me that the best approach here might be to see if we, Microsoft's customers , could convince them to pren the specs under a organization such as the w3c . Unless that happens no one will trust that Microsoft will not yet to leverage this to attack their competitors.

Re:Now we only need a name (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980869)

Miguel, you and all of Novell are traitors.

I used to respect you, but not after the deal with Microsoft.

Re:Now we only need a name (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981083)

Slither-Light

Re:Now we only need a name (1)

cliffiecee (136220) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981085)

'Tis the season to be jolly

fa-da-da-da-daw da-daw-da-daw

Re-make Flash as a knock off co-py

fa-da-da-da-daw da-daw-da-daw

Re:Now we only need a name (1)

metamatic (202216) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981097)

And I was thinking Silver-light in another language

How about just calling it Thirty-pieces-of-silverlight?

Re:Now we only need a name (2)

ozamosi (615254) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981165)

Moonlight is a great name - not too silly, but still almost made me laugh out loud :)

Although my instincts tell me to say "I don't want no stinking Silverlight" (just like everyone here, apparently), youtube has really teached me an important lession: sooner or later, someone will do something that you actually want to access in these platforms, and that's when I'll be really happy you already did this job, so I don't have to wait forever for it to start working.

To summarise: please go fuck yourself, and thank you in advance for doing this ;)

Why Is This Clown Still Around? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980015)

Miguel de Icaza has done more damage to Linux than any other single person. Ever.

I would rather see... (1)

jhfry (829244) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980049)

Someone at Apache, IBM, or Sun announce that they are going to introduce a truely cross platform, open source, and Free alternative to Silverlight and Flash.

It can be done!

Re:I would rather see... (1)

ErikInterlude (784049) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980401)

Someone at Apache, IBM, or Sun announce that they are going to introduce a truely cross platform, open source, and Free alternative to Silverlight and Flash.

Just off the top of my head there's SVG as a potential format. I think a standard exists for turning XML into binary or hexadecimal (WBXML? WBML? I can't remember what it was called) for optimization. After that you need a set of tools to make content development easy. I suppose you could look towards OpenLaszlo [openlaszlo.org] for a model on the programming end. In other words, JavaScript + XML compiling to SVG (it's more complex and so shouldn't be dealt with directly) and then to the optimized form. InkScape [inkscape.org] , if it's mature enough, could be used for the actual graphical assets. I have no idea what could replace Flash's embedded video, but this might be a good opportunity for the Theora codec (if it ever gets out of alpha).

You're right that there would need to be a big push by a powerful entity, though. It's a matter of visibility plus follow-through, I think.

Re:I would rather see... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981071)

Well, SVG gets you a part of the way, but to really build a flash competitor you'd need to go a bit further. Something like:

A subset of SDL to handle pixel graphics, and sound and possibly input, possibly low level surface management.
SVG rendering libs
OGG decoders for streaming audio and video
A script interpreter. LUA for fast and small, or python for a large developer base. Java script never made anyone happy.

Then a file format that consists of scripts and media resources in a zip or similar so that development does not require a special, complicated IDE. Or at least simple comandline tools that can convert such a file into a binary blob.

  (Flash is based around such an IDE mostly to give adobe/macromedia something to sell.)

Re:I would rather see... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980519)

yes, my appeal at miguel would be to please not support microsoft in pushing one of their new standards, which are commonly designed or implemented to annoy and lock out the competition.

Re:I would rather see... (1)

ericferris (1087061) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980639)

I must agree. That replacement exist. It's call SVG and Java.

Re:I would rather see... (1)

MemoryDragon (544441) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981013)

Add to that openlazlo a bunch of other webframeworks which are moving into the cross platform domain, add to that echo2, and http://blogs.sun.com/chrisoliver/category/F3 [sun.com] ...

Id rather see something truly open being supported instead of yet cloning another windows forever mac for a limited time technology into Linux until Microsoft starts suing it into oblivion once they have enough marketshare!

Re:I would rather see... (1)

ErikInterlude (784049) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981061)

I must agree. That replacement exist. It's call SVG and Java.

The only problem I see with an SVG/Java solution is the lack of video streaming. Right now it's only possible via Quicktime For Java, and the Java Media Framework. From what I've read the Java Media Framework is not held in high regard, and there seem to be rumblings that Apple is unofficially dropping Quicktime For Java (if anyone knows something different, please correct me).

In any case Flash video has become extremely important, with Youtube being the obvious example. This is an issue that would have to be resolved at some point if Java was going to be the main vehicle.

Re:I would rather see... (1)

MemoryDragon (544441) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981145)

Well flash video streaming is limited to currently two codecs which can be done with jmf, yes jmf is not highly regarded, there are various reasons, a) It was overly complicated in its first release b) There was no huge need for other releases, since java found its corners elsewhere But I do not see a lot of reasons why videostreaming could not be done, the main problem is more along the lines, flash has the advantage of having already a runtime on every Windows PC, which recent java vms especially the 6.x have become excellent in itselfs even the good old applets again shine but they have to be loaded and installed separately! I really love the 6.x jdk as desptop platform, but there alyways is th e distribution problem, even nowadays forcing the users to download a 13MB jre can be troublesome!

Re:I would rather see... (4, Funny)

dbIII (701233) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980995)

There is a cross platform alternative for flash in nearly every web browser - the BLINK tag can be almost as annoying as flash if used correctly.

Re:I would rather see... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981355)

... You know, like oh I don't know, SMIL or Animated SVGs or OpenLaszlo ...

The main problem is that out of 30% minority of PCs with people behind them (the rest being drones/zombies and servers) 5% of the people control teh Internets, 90% of the people are clueless, 5% of the people know about that.

I doubt Silverlight is going to gain any popularity unless MS bundles a Silverlight-making application with the latest version of Windows. Otherwise your average failure of a PC user won't know about it.

Someone Forgot To Tell Miguel... (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980057)

that Mono is dead.

Probably the only good thing to come out of the whole MS/Novell mess.

Mono.. (3, Funny)

Mockylock (1087585) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980065)

"mono" Great name. Nothing like naming a project after a virus known for disabling whole cheerleading squads in a single bound.

Re:Mono.. (1)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980157)

If as a geek (other than a medical doctor) that's the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear the word "mono", then you need to seek some counseling.

Re:Mono.. (0, Flamebait)

Mockylock (1087585) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980455)

Or, I may comment about the way someone thinks when they're actually being facetious. Whatever floats your boat, buddy. If it really makes you feel better to tell someone they need to see a doctor because of a joke, the jokester isn't the one with problems.

Re:Mono.. (4, Funny)

aristotle-dude (626586) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981009)

If as a geek (other than a medical doctor) that's the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear the word "mono", then you need to seek some counseling.
If the first thing that comes mind for you when someone mentions "mono" is some obscure open source implementation of the .NET CLR, then you need to seek some counselling.

To be fair... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981177)

> Nothing like naming a project after a virus

To be fair, that name does convey the fact that it's an implementation of Microsoft technology ...

As my old history teacher used to say... (1)

A beautiful mind (821714) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980069)

"The embrace of Prussia is deadly". It was a reminder that for a long time Prussia was mostly victorious, even against former allies.

It is not a mistake that Microsoft's strategy starts with "embrace".

+1 funny plz (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980077)

I for one welcome our new Clippy enhanced silverlight overlords

Seriously, Miguel, give up (3, Insightful)

Rik Sweeney (471717) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980103)

You've clearly got a lot of talent, so why are you wasting your time making Open Source versions of all of Microsoft's products? All you're effectively doing is giving Microsoft the foothold in Linux that they need.

There are plenty of Linux apps out there that could do with your skills and that don't infringe on Microsoft's patents. Why not write a program that'll do something with that number that everyone's been talking about recently. I can't remember what it is, but I'll find it in a moment...

Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (4, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980493)

You've clearly got a lot of talent, so why are you wasting your time making Open Source versions of all of Microsoft's products? All you're effectively doing is giving Microsoft the foothold in Linux that they need.


Well, because I believe that Siverlight will become an important component in future applications. The majority of people will probably be happy to spice up their web applications with a little silverlight as it will run on Windows and MacOS.

But if there is no Silverlight for Linux, we will be prevented from getting access to content and applications that will be available.

So we got a couple of strategies dealing with this:

(a) the ostrich strategy also known as the "i-cant-hear-you" strategy: pretend that Silverlight does not exist and hope that by ignoring it, it will go away and vanish.

(b) Hope that nobody adopts it. I seriously doubt that Silverlight will not be adopted, in particular the CLR version shows a lot of promise.

(c) Be proactive and implement it ourselves: we got most of the hard bits of the technology already (a CLR, a JIT, the GC, the core class libraries, even up to some parts of LINQ).

Considering that we are very familiar with the technology, we can do something along the lines of (c). You can feel free to pursue avenues (a) and (b).

In fact, you can ignore Mono completely, nobody is forcing you to use it; Nobody is asking you to contribute to the effort, and nobody is in any position to force you to stop using whatever other technology happens to be your favorite one.

I loved the Silverlight announcement, it is a way of bringing my favorite platform to the web (the CLR and now the DLR) and it seems like a natural fit and extension to what Mono does.

There are plenty of Linux apps out there that could do with your skills and that don't infringe on Microsoft's patents. Why not write a program that'll do something with that number that everyone's been talking about recently. I can't remember what it is, but I'll find it in a moment...


And why exactly would I care about your pet project?

Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980777)

Jesus Motherfucking Christ.
You truly are an asshole.
Fucking shill...

Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (1, Insightful)

cgranade (702534) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980841)

Thank you, Miguel, for continuing to take a sane and rational stance with respect to .NET and its descendants. I have long appreciated how hard you work to build the Mono community, by helping newbies (such as myself on many occasions) on the mailing lists and IRC channel, by writing extensively about your thoughts and progress, and by supporting the community-building efforts of others. I am somewhat sad to see that many of our fellow Slashdotters have chosen the head-in-sand option, rather than recognizing the place that .NET and Silverlight will most likely play in the IT infrastructure of tomorrow. Whether I may like it or not, Microsoft is a major player, and can push new frameworks into prominence easily. If it weren't for people like you working so hard to make Linux a part of these frameworks, we would be missing out on the many wonderful technologies that have come out of CLR, from Nemerle to LINQ. So, once again, thanks, Miguel.

Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (2, Insightful)

MemoryDragon (544441) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981221)

Problem is, that there are solutions which are more worthwile to push into existence than playing catchup with microsoft with a uncertain future, there are alternatives to silverlight, Microsoft is very late to the game, projects worthwile would be:

a) improve the svg situation now that Adobe has dropped the ball, on windows, after all silverlight is mainly a flash clone with .net added as backend tech

b) try to give a helping hand to one of the projects why try to implement a really opensource flash tech or build on top of flash decent open rich ui frameworks

Miguel again has chosen the hardest way, and helping microsoft to fortify their monopoly in areas which currently are very vivid in the long run just for the sake of trying to clone yet another Microsoft tech!

Sorry to say that, but enough is enough!
It is not like sticking the head in the sand, Microsoft can push such things, but you do not have to help them all the way long until they have enough marketshare so they can easily kill you off...

Option D (1)

geek (5680) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980847)

Invent something better and open source it rather than play catch up and gamble on the evil empire playing nice.

Seriously, rather than copy them, try being creative for a change and invent something better.

Re:Option D (3, Insightful)

miguel (7116) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980939)


Invent something better and open source it rather than play catch up and gamble on the evil empire playing nice.

Seriously, rather than copy them, try being creative for a change and invent something better.


The problem is that some of us want to have access to content that will be produced with Silverlight, inventing a better system will not make the Silverlight content magically be transformed or accessible to us.

Building a "player" for Silverlight is also orders of magnitude simpler than building the complete ecosystem: the engine, the development tools, the designer tools and the partnerships.

Having a better technology does not mean that the better technology will have the reach that something from Macromedia and Microsoft will have.

But my all means, if you want to design, architect and implement a better Silverlight and a better Flash, you should go ahead and do it. But the technology piece is only going to be a fraction of the problem to solve.

Miguel.

Not buying it (4, Insightful)

geek (5680) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980997)

The problem with your argument is that no one has even tried to make something better. You jump on the Microsoft bandwagon every single time. I miss the Miguel from the Gnome project. This new Miguel is just a Microsoft sellout. Silverlight hasnt even begun to take root, not by a long shot, and yet here you are already working hard to make sure it does.

Microsoft is not unbeatable. They have failed at everything they've tried over the last 5 years, whether it's Vista, IE7 or Zune. Making the stupid assumption that Silverlight is the next greatest thing is why people have lost respect for you.

Re:Not buying it (1)

cgranade (702534) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981113)

As Miguel has repeatedly pointed out, the technologies for implementing Silverlight are practically there. Moreover, just because he wants to make a Silverlight client for Linux doesn't mean that no one else can pursue other Flash alternatives (such as my favorite: XHTML+SVG+JavaScript). If I understand things correctly, than the Silverlight/Mono project is just a sane way of making sure that Mono remains relevant.

Re:Option D (1)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981149)

The problem is that some of us want to have access to content that will be produced with Silverlight, inventing a better system will not make the Silverlight content magically be transformed or accessible to us.
If you make it better enough that there is a compelling reason for people to use it as their content platform rather than Silverlight, yes, it will. Well, except not "magically", unless you regard the normal action of the market as "magic".

Re:Option D (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981453)

Or maybe "voodoo"?

Legal options (4, Insightful)

overshoot (39700) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981237)

The problem is that some of us want to have access to content that will be produced with Silverlight, inventing a better system will not make the Silverlight content magically be transformed or accessible to us.
Well, guess what: US law gives a 20-year monopoly on access to that content to Microsoft. If you want access to that content, get a Microsoft system and have at it.

Re:Option D (4, Insightful)

FooBarWidget (556006) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981003)

"Seriously, rather than copy them, try being creative for a change and invent something better."
Oh, you mean this? [mono-project.com] GTK+ is a very good toolkit (the best one, as far as I'm concerned). And GTK is available on Mono. I used it, it's good - VERY good, very easy to use. As far as I'm concerned, this is much, much better than Windows.Forms.

Look around you. There are tons of high-quality non-MS open source projects that run on Mono. You seem to be thinking that copying the Microsoft runtime library is all that Mono does. That's far from the truth.
C# is a good language. I don't care whether MS made it or the Martians - it's good, there is an open source implementation, there are open source libraries, so I will use it.

Re:Option D (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981249)

It's also patented. You might not care about (present or future) freedom, but many of us do.

Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (1)

mackyrae (999347) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980941)

What exactly is Silverlight? The name made me think of Quicksilver on a Mac, but looking at MS's site it looks like they're reinventing Flash. ewwwwwwww

Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (1)

MemoryDragon (544441) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980963)

Miguel, read up the court documents regarding java and Microsofts failed attempt to take over the language which was so cross platform and which made several people very up being scared that Windows becomes obsolete. Lets face it how long do you thing you can clone this stuff into Linux until Microsoft comes down on it full force via the patent laws and copyright laws? Seriously I will give you the estimate, as soon as java and probably 1-2 other technologies are not a serious thread anymore. Dont expect Microsoft to allow anything to exist in the wild in a cross platform manner, it is not their intention, their intention is and has been once they started to take over the browser market to lock the whole thing down on windows. Hence the IE development was stalled in a beta stage with IE6 for several years, hence only a half assed fixup of the worst CSS bugs in IE7, CSS and HTML is cross platform and not wanted by Microsoft period!

Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (4, Insightful)

DragonWriter (970822) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981039)

So we got a couple of strategies dealing with this:

(a) the ostrich strategy also known as the "i-cant-hear-you" strategy: pretend that Silverlight does not exist and hope that by ignoring it, it will go away and vanish.

(b) Hope that nobody adopts it. I seriously doubt that Silverlight will not be adopted, in particular the CLR version shows a lot of promise.

(c) Be proactive and implement it ourselves: we got most of the hard bits of the technology already (a CLR, a JIT, the GC, the core class libraries, even up to some parts of LINQ).


I think you left out:

(d) come up with something better that can be made cross-platform from the get-go that gives people a compelling reason to use it instead of Silverlight, rather than permanently following along a few steps behind Microsoft.

Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981049)

d) it gets implemented but can't be fully compatible with Microsoft's offerings on Windows/Mac. This allows MS to tout it as being a "perfect cross platform web technology." However, everything but the Windows versions will be broken in subtle ways and whenever your version just about fixes the corner cases, they'll introduce new problems as they have in wrt Samba over the years. I can see the MS marketdroids now "Linux is a toy OS that just can't stay current with our continuing innovations and while most applications (just not the important ones) work in Linux, you really should use Windows to ensure maximum compatibility." Microsoft blatantly disregards international standards to their benefit, I certainly wouldn't expect them to play fair with a technology they fully control.

Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (1)

metamatic (202216) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981127)

Well, because I believe that Siverlight will become an important component in future applications. The majority of people will probably be happy to spice up their web applications with a little silverlight as it will run on Windows and MacOS.

Like ActiveX, you mean?

ActiveX might have been successful if fools like you had been around to implement it on Linux.

Re:Seriously, Miguel, give up (4, Insightful)

oGMo (379) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981141)

You've clearly got a lot of talent [...]

Making poor imitations of crappy ideas isn't clear indication of talent; quite the opposite, in fact.

Well, because I believe that Siverlight will become an important component in future applications. The majority of people will probably be happy to spice up their web applications with a little silverlight as it will run on Windows and MacOS.

You forgot "want" before "believe", and we all know the result of introducing yet another nonstandard web extension is. I mean, it's worked so well for Microsoft in the past: proprietary JavaScript extensions, HTML extensions, ActiveX. It's just brought the web together into a nice, unified platform, so you never have to worry about how every different browser handles your website. Oh wait, no it hasn't: just the opposite.

But if there is no Silverlight for Linux, we will be prevented from getting access to content and applications that will be available. So we got a couple of strategies dealing with this:

How about: d) Proactively discourage its use; build, distribute, and support and alternative framework that is not under the control of a corporation known for breaking compatibility regularly to discourage competition. Get this into Firefox and build an IE plugin to support it.

In fact, you can ignore Mono completely, nobody is forcing you to use it [...] I loved the Silverlight announcement, it is a way of bringing my favorite platform to the web (the CLR and now the DLR) and it seems like a natural fit and extension to what Mono does. [...] And why exactly would I care about your pet project?

I think you just asked the question that so many others are asking about Mono.

Not quite true (1)

overshoot (39700) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981213)

nobody is in any position to force you to stop using whatever other technology happens to be your favorite one.
Well, that's patently false (pun intended.)

I've never liked Gnome, so I'm less affected than others who do use it. Even I, however, have a hard time avoiding GTK applications unless I want to, for instance, recode OpenOffice.org for personal use.

As a result, when Microsoft's lawyers send a "cease and desist" order against non-Novell users of the Gnome/GTK software that's been infected with "their" technology, they will be in a position to force them -- and me -- to stop using our favorite technologies.

Now, I don't happen to like the fact that my country is run that way. I'm sure that there are people in places like Egypt who don't like the way their countries are run, too. However, I'm not quite prepared to leave it and in the meantime am doing my best to deal with the reality.

Thus, to return your advice: the ostrich strategy also known as the "i-cant-hear-you" strategy: pretend that Microsoft's patent threat does not exist and hope that by ignoring it, it will go away and vanish.

No thanks. If MS has the patents that they claim to, I'm going to obey the law and not use "their" technology until the law is changed.

That's nice, Miguel (3, Insightful)

overshoot (39700) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980263)

However, since I don't have your "special friend" relationship with Steve Ballmer and he has a much larger budget for lawyers, I'll pass.

Call us again in a few years when the patents (whichever they are) have expired. Say, about 2026.

Re:That's nice, Miguel (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981087)

If the current situation continues, I'd bet that people will be granted patents for this technology in 2026.

Re:That's nice, Miguel (3, Insightful)

HRbnjR (12398) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981469)

That's pretty much just what I thought when I heard the "Icaza, was able to commit without hesitating" thing.

I mean, with Mono they at least tried to pretend like they understood the patent situation surrounding the technology. But with this Silverlight stuff just being announced, there is no way you could have done any type of audit to know what you are getting yourself into!

What a waste of time... (1)

Chineseyes (691744) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980357)

What a complete waste of time this would be. Mono is already feature incomplete as it is and now he wants to take on another project. How about finishing the one you currently have then taking on more projects.

Re:What a waste of time... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980415)

How about finishing the one you currently have then taking on more projects.
Finishing software. Pah! That wouldn't be the Microsoft-way of doing things and Miguel just loves everything Microsoft.

Re:What a waste of time... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980619)

Because the real goal of the mono project is staying perpetually one step behind Microsft.
That way, marketoids can sell .NET as "multi-platform" to clueless managers, if they ever want to switch to Linux a simple "you know, it won't support 100% of your application, your TCO will go up while trying to adapt" by a support drone a few years later (probably to a new manager) will be the way to keep them locked.

And let's not start in the legal minefield that some vital parts for REAL cross platform support are, it does not matter how many promises Microsoft makes, how can anyone trust Microsoft to stick non legally binding statements these days is beyond me.

Re:What a waste of time... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981277)

And the slashdot moderation system is abused once again.
On the other hand is nice to see my trolling posts modded up, perhaps I should use my account for them and whore some karma.

Re:What a waste of time... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18981345)

One advantage of Mono, though, is it runs on more than one platform. You don't have to switch to Linux to be able to test it or develop for it. Just run the Windows version. If it works, then you know you can easily switch. If it doesn't you can gradually move over.

Silverfish should have been a clue. (1, Funny)

killjoe (766577) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980395)

Dear Miguel.

When MS designed this thing they could have used mono as a base. That way they would have had an open source, cross platform base from the start. They could have distributed your (and your contributors) work with windows update and gotten mono on every windows desktop.

They didn't. They instead chose to pull the rug out from under you by open sourcing their own CLR (to some extent) and making it cross platform (to some extent).

They shit on you. Please don't just sit there with a grin on your face and take it. You are much too bright and hard working and don't deserve this kind of treatment.

Re:Silverfish should have been a clue. (3, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980581)


They didn't. They instead chose to pull the rug out from under you by open sourcing their own CLR (to some extent) and making it cross platform (to some extent).


They did not open source their CLR, you are confused.

They open sourced a chunk of code that we do not have, the DLR and as I said on my blog post, we will be shipping the DLR together with IronPython and NRuby (when it becomes

Re:Silverfish should have been a clue. (1)

Salsaman (141471) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980895)

So why not use your skills to create a Linux version which is free from Microsoft patents ?

To do otherwise suggests you are complicit in MS scheming. Do you understand why so many people are angry with what you do ?

Thats great! (1)

rhythmx (744978) | more than 6 years ago | (#18980453)

Finally Linux being embraced . Microsoft is going to let us have our cake and eat it too! Then maybe they'll even provide thier own extended version after the Mono version is stable. Then we can scurry about trying to fix everything before we are extinguished

thanks, but no thanks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980507)

The intellectual property owned by big corporations is a cancer that attaches itself to open source projects and destroys them. I'd stick with gcc and a torn copy of K&R for the rest of my life rather than giving even a slightest chance to Microsoft or any other corporate lawyer-backed lowlife to fuck with an open source project.

Novell now is in bed with Microsoft and so is, wishfully or not, Miguel de Icaza. Heroes aren't forever.

Will the Linux version also... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18980781)

Will the Linux version also be bloated, slow and full of security holes? And will it also have "special added features" for IE? And will it also attempt to hook into every Microsoft product on your system?

Microsoft is coming to the table a decade late on this one, and bringing with them a history of slow, buggy bloatware...

Good luck boys.

ffs (2, Insightful)

wwmedia (950346) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981103)

i dont care if loose karma for this

firstly i wish to say "thank you" to the mono team! yee are doing a great job!

secondly what the f*** is wrong with you ./'s ?! get a grip!

while yee are arguing which distro has the longest .... microsoft came a long and actually made a really usefull piece of technology that ties alot of features together in one package, not only that but some people are sickened that it comes under an open license and are afraid that linux will become that bit more irrelevant on the desktop side of things

keep reaching fot that rainbow! keep playing catchup to microsoft

end rant.

Re:ffs (5, Insightful)

markh100 (696858) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981297)

Agreed. The vitriolic tone of this thread is somewhat astonishing to me. I'm primarily a Windows/.NET developer that is slowly working towards migrating to a Linux platform, and the Mono project is one of the key technologies leading me in that direction. When Microsoft announced that Silverlight was going to be a cross-platform technology that only ran on Windows and Apple, I was extremely frustrated. I can understand why, strategically, Microsoft has chosen not to implement a Silverlight implementation on Linux, but I cannot understand why the majority of those commenting on this thread are arguing so vehemently against Miguel.

Silverlight is not just a reimplementation of Flash. Coding in .NET is a pleasure, and a can gaurantee you that coding for the Silverlight platform is going to be infinitely more organized and structured than coding for Flash. Website developers are going to flock to this new technology. Without a Linux implementation of Silverlight, 20% of websites will be completely inaccessible to Linux users in 5 years.

*sigh* (2, Insightful)

Ant P. (974313) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981231)

What does this format bring to Linux, other than a patent minefield that renders it useless to all but Novell (and then only until MS extinguishes them)?

Re:*sigh* (1)

argent (18001) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981431)

It brings a Windows-specific API that's a really really bad fit for the UNIX programming environment! Two hits for the price of one!

Get A Grip (4, Insightful)

N8F8 (4562) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981475)

Slamming Mono [wikipedia.org] for implementing Silverlight is about as irrational as slamming Opera or Mozilla for implementing JavaScript.

what's with this guy? (2, Funny)

2ms (232331) | more than 6 years ago | (#18981485)

Used to love Miguel and I know him and Nat do a lot of incredible stuff. But this Mono stuff has always completely baffled me. Ever since the very beginning over 5 years ago. Has always seemed like terrible idea to me. Just don't understand his obsession with MS. Can someone tell me what good has come out of Mono? I would like to know (I not denying there is good, I'm genuiously interested in being informed).
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