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173 comments

ORLY? (0, Offtopic)

caller9 (764851) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999047)

So 27,000. That's like a lot huh?

Re:ORLY? (-1, Offtopic)

caller9 (764851) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999123)

Yeah, I realize already that was very snide. I would really like to ask how, in 3 months, only 27,000 users responded. Is that even marginally representative of the user base?

To assuage the knee jerks, I'm a penguin lover myself. I'm typing this currently in Firefox 1.5x because FC6 won't make that leap until 3.x. I don't have a view either way on the distro battles...except that gentoo is for people more patient than myself who might also have less chromosomes(I keed, I keed). Also I enjoy the taste of foot enough to request seconds...that's right... in my mouth.

Re:ORLY? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18999219)

*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_
g_______________________________________________g_ _
o_/_____\_____________\____________/____\_______o_ _
a|_______|_____________\__________|______|______a_ _
t|_______`._____________|_________|_______:_____t_ _
s`________|_____________|________\|_______|_____s_ _
e_\_______|_/_______/__\\\___--___\\_______:____e_ _
x__\______\/____--~~__________~--__|_\_____|____x_ _
*___\______\_-~____________________~-_\____|____*_ _
g____\______\_________.--------.______\|___|____g_ _
o______\_____\______//_________(_(__>__\___|____o_ _
a_______\___.__C____)_________(_(____>__|__/____a_ _
t_______/\_|___C_____)/INSERT\_(_____>__|_/_____t_ _
s______/_/\|___C_____)_GERBIL|__(___>___/__\____s_ _
e_____|___(____C_____)\_HERE_/__//__/_/_____\___e_ _
x_____|____\__|_____\\_________//_(__/_______|__x_ _
*____|_\____\____)___`----___--'_____________|__*_ _
g____|__\______________\_______/____________/_|_g_ _
o___|______________/____|_____|__\____________|_o_ _
a___|_____________|____/_______\__\___________|_a_ _
t___|__________/_/____|_________|__\___________|t_ _
s___|_________/_/______\__/\___/____|__________|s_ _
e__|_________/_/________|____|_______|_________|e_ _
x__|__________|_________|____|_______|_________|x_ _
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_


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Since when do the dead get to take surveys ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18999387)

I counted more than a few names that are bogus. Richard M. Nixon? John Hancock (poor, poor John, teased a lot). Elvis Presley? I'm pretty sure that guy, and many others, have passed from this mortal coil. Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel? OK, that almost sounds about right.

I Wasn't Very Impressed With Suse... (1)

morari (1080535) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999083)

Years (almost a decade, I would say) ago when I had tried it... Bought a nice, big bundled package from the store at that, thinking it would rock. I'm sure that added to my disappointment. At that time however, I really liked Mandrake. I tried my big Suse suite to a friend for American McGee's Alice. Much better :P

Re:I Wasn't Very Impressed With Suse... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18999871)

So, both were horror stories?

Why? (5, Insightful)

Hemogoblin (982564) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999087)

I RTFA and even RTF-PDF, but I still don't know the point of this survey. For what purpose was it administered? As far as I can tell, it simply collected the characteristics of people who use openSUSE. Is some organization going to be using these results for something?

Re:Why? (1)

apokryphos (869208) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000163)

Well, from the article: "Thank you all for your participation. With your input we all are able to make openSUSE better and better." It was a general survey on opinions and usage of openSUSE for the developers and those working in and around openSUSE.

Re:Why? (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000169)

I guess that organization would be Novell. It should be obvious that it's an advantage for a company to know how people like their product.

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19000327)

NO, the organization is Microsoft and they are trying to determine what they should copy for their next OS. :o)

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19000171)

I still don't know the point of this survey.

Well, within the limitation in how far this survey is representative, they have now information about how experienced their users are, how important certain aspects (price, support, stability, ...) are for them, how well in their opinion openSuSE meets these criteria, what aspects people would like to see improved (hardware support, ...), which desktop most of their users use etc etc

Do you seriously not see why such kind of information might be valuable for openSuSE?

Luckily (4, Funny)

Propaganda13 (312548) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999097)

OpenSuse user base doesn't reflect the world. Otherwise, only 2% of the population would be female.

Re:Luckily (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000215)

If they would talk to me, I would happily agree with those odds, but in the real world, none come down to my moms basement where I live.

Tools used (1, Troll)

tftp (111690) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999101)

It's always interesting to check PDF properties; this survey was printed from Mozilla on an Apple box. I just wonder why Novell could not spend 0.5 [wo]man-hour to actually make it nice.

Re:Tools used (1)

value_added (719364) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000299)

t's always interesting to check PDF properties

A perverse habit that I share. My guess is that only people familiar with desktop publishing would get what they're looking at, but it's worth pointing out that while PDFs can contain interesting information, the information is never as interesting (or incriminating) as what we'd typically get from folks who "publish" Word documents, employees of Microsoft included.

this survey was printed from Mozilla on an Apple box. I just wonder why Novell could not spend 0.5 [wo]man-hour to actually make it nice.

Agreed it's pretty amateurish. Someone be sure send off a copy of Unix Text Processing to the folks at SuSE. The book is probably 20 years older than the version of Acrobat mschmidkuntz (or whoever the author is) is using, and among other things, a lot cheaper.

KDE vs Gnome (3, Insightful)

eklitzke (873155) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999109)

I know that Suse has long been a KDE-oriented distribution, but I was still surprised to see such a high percentage of respondents who used it. When I started using Linux several years ago, it seemed that most users were running KDE, but lately with the huge success of Gnome and Gnome-origented distributions, I was expecting to see a higher adoption rate of Gnome (yes, even among Suse users).

Also, did anyone else think it was weird that among all the questions asked, they neglected to ask what geographic region respondents were from?

Re:KDE vs Gnome (4, Insightful)

thatshawnguy (1096811) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999145)

Also, did anyone else think it was weird that among all the questions asked, they neglected to ask what geographic region respondents were from?
Because "In my parent's basement" can't be found on a map.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19000441)

True...otherwise you'd have somewhere to tell your non-existing dates to come back to, eh Shawn? Dumbfuck.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19001199)

You need a fucking sense of humour, AC.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (4, Interesting)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999181)

Considering that GNOME is the default on suse, it is amazing. It looks like the more that the distros push GNOME, they more that they shoot themselves in the foot. Hopefully, this survey will stop that crap, but I am guessing that Novell will disregard this part.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (5, Informative)

sjbcfh (611594) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999331)

Considering that GNOME is the default on suse, it is amazing.

Gnome is the default selection for SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop, but only in that the radio button for Gnome is preselected, rather than that for KDE. KDE is still the default selection for openSUSE.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1)

Nuno Sa (1095047) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999487)

It's hard to find statistics about KDE vs GNOME desktop usage. A few weeks ago I spent one or two hours researching this and every statistic says the same: KDE has 70% to 80% of the userbase. Beeing them from last year or from 3 years ago. Now I wish I have saved the few links I found about this subject.

That or Linus is voting several times!!! :-)

Regards,
Nuno

Re:KDE vs Gnome (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18999617)

There is, as far as I can tell, only one place in the world where GNOME is more popular than KDE, and that is, surprise surprise, on the Ubuntu Forums [ubuntuforums.org]. Everywhere else, KDE appears to lead my a margin of roughly 2:1. In particular, it is a consistent winner of the LinuxQuestions Members Choice awards [linuxquestions.org]. It's also very popular on the desktops of European government [europa.eu], being used on 10.2% of desktops, compared to GNOME's 5.5% (see page 29).

It always saddens me to see the Big Distros rallying around GNOME and pouring funds into it as I've always viewed Open Source as a meritocracy, whereas the decision to back GNOME development is quite clearly not based on its merits (or at least, not its technical ones), nor even, clearly, on what the end users want. It also strikes me as a terrible waste of resources: GNOME's shaky technical base and general bureaucratic attitude means that even though money is thrown at it, nothing ever seems to get done, with GNOME's busiest days barely matching [cia.vc] KDE's laziest, while the KDE team are completely shaking up the code and architecture of their massive [blogspot.com] code-base on a shoestring. A real shame, but - c'est la vie, I guess!

Re:KDE vs Gnome (2, Insightful)

lattyware (934246) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000083)

I'm sorry, but GNOME is important. I have friends, they will run a GNOME distro, but not a KDE one. KDE is harder, and ugly as hell. Note that I run KDE myself, because the software and configurability is better, but to most end users GNOME is way more attractive and easier to use. GNOME will be the desktop of choice for the linux masses if the day ever comes, KDE will remain the power-users desktop, as far as I can see.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19000155)

But the question is, of course, which is the more cost effective approach: Spending time grafting features onto GNOME to bring it up to KDE's functionality, or just giving KDE a face-lift? Heck, most of the (alleged - my 57 year old mum had absolutely no trouble at all with using KDE) usability issues with KDE stem from the clutter of the menus and its crappy defaults, most of which can of course be altered without even changing a single line of code; in fact, a huge amount of this can be dealt with using its Kiosk settings.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1, Interesting)

oergiR (992541) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000497)

I think the difference between KDE and Gnome can be explained sufficiently well by two screenshots, taken from random places on the web.

Copying a CD with KDE [plainblack.com]

Copying a CD with Gnome [launchpad.net]

I don't see much explanatory value in talk about "power users". That I am an expert on speech recognisers does not make me want to manipulate zillions of settings when I'm burning a CD. I have better things to do. KDE is not the desktop of choice for "power users", but for people with too much time on their hands.

Come to think of it, that's exactly the psychological profile of the average Slashdot reader!

Re:KDE vs Gnome (2, Insightful)

hclyff (925743) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000669)

I think the difference between KDE and Gnome can be explained sufficiently well by two screenshots, taken from random places on the web.

Copying a CD with KDE [plainblack.com]

Copying a CD with Gnome [launchpad.net]

I don't see much explanatory value in talk about "power users". That I am an expert on speech recognisers does not make me want to manipulate zillions of settings when I'm burning a CD. I have better things to do. KDE is not the desktop of choice for "power users", but for people with too much time on their hands.

Nice generalizations you have there. What do you do when you know your CD is scratched and won't copy using the default settings? What do you do when you have to leave in 5 minutes and need to quickly copy a CD directly from one drive to another (on-the-fly)? If your answer is 'I wouldn't know how to do these anyway', you can hardly call yourself a power user. And in either case, you can always ignore the extra settings.

Come to think of it, that's exactly the psychological profile of the average Slashdot reader!

Yes, because IT people are generally known to have lots of free time.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (4, Insightful)

dalutong (260603) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000135)

You talk about the open source value of meritocracy. I agree that it is an important value. But it is a value for "consumers" to consider, not Novell (the parent company of SuSE and Ximian.) If people were supposed to only support the development of the better software, then there would only be one choice out there. So I don't think it undermines the value of having a meritocracy to have companies fund alternative environments.

Just as an aside, you say that the "Big Distros" rally behind GNOME. That's just false. Until relatively recently, Red Hat was the only Big Distro to come with GNOME as default. They have to consider their interests in doing such: they have been using GNOME for a long time and probably care more about familiarity and consistency than about which environment is better.

You also mention the Ubuntu forums. Ubuntu uses GNOME as a default and is the most popular linux distribution out there. Couldn't that be evidence that people like GNOME? Or are the statistics only worthwhile when they support your desktop environment?

I started using GNOME way back when there was still a substantive debate regarding which was truly free software. Miguel de Icaza was, at least in my young eyes at the time, one of Free Software's champions. I remember Antitrust's scene where you can see GNOME on the computer. All of those associations, basic familiarity, and the fact that my concept of the desktop matured while using GNOME have caused me to stick with it.

I won't disparage KDE; I simply don't know enough to do so. I just don't see the value in arguing that GNOME shouldn't be supported.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19000323)

First of all, thanks for the level-headed and fair post: reading my own, I think now that it was rather flame-baity, and I'm glad you responded civilly :)

You talk about the open source value of meritocracy. I agree that it is an important value. But it is a value for "consumers" to consider, not Novell (the parent company of SuSE and Ximian.) If people were supposed to only support the development of the better software, then there would only be one choice out there. So I don't think it undermines the value of having a meritocracy to have companies fund alternative environments.
But this is just it: I'm not complaining about the fact that it is funded, per se (frankly, any funding for Free software is welcome in my book, and GNOME technologies quite often benefit KDE, too: see e.g. d-bus and NetworkManager), but about the fact that practically everywhere I have seen, the market has spoken and it has chosen KDE, yet a truly disproportionate amount of funding is directed at the second choice. Does this not strike you as the least bit ... well ... odd?

Just as an aside, you say that the "Big Distros" rally behind GNOME. That's just false. Until relatively recently, Red Hat was the only Big Distro to come with GNOME as default. They have to consider their interests in doing such: they have been using GNOME for a long time and probably care more about familiarity and consistency than about which environment is better.
Hmmmm ... I don't know, Red Hat and Novell are the Big Hitters on the business desktop, and Ubuntu is the undisputed giant of the home desktop, and all are GNOME. I think this particular point still stands, to be honest.

You also mention the Ubuntu forums. Ubuntu uses GNOME as a default and is the most popular linux distribution out there. Couldn't that be evidence that people like GNOME?
I'm not disputing for a second that people like GNOME; the results show a very solid core of support for it, and as one of the few KDE fans on the Ubuntu Forums, I see heartfelt testimonies to it every day. But to address what I'm going to guess is the question you meant to ask: I don't feel that GNOME need be the primary reason for Ubuntu's success. In order of importance, I'd go for:

1) Community!

The Ubuntu Forums number over 200k people, and have a strict anti-RTFM/ trolling code of conduct. They are an immensely helpful resource, and have massive amounts of HOWTO's and documentation.

2) Nicely printed, professional-looking CDs shipped to your door for free!

This one pretty much speaks for itself, I think.

3) It "Just Works" mantra.

The "If it doesn't Just Work, it is a bug" mantra is very enticing.

4) Advertising!

I don't mean to imply that this as a deliberate cynical attempt on Canonical's part, but Ubuntu has a massive grass-roots advertising campaign. For most people, the word "Ubuntu" is their first exposure to Linux.

5) Glamour!

You'd be amazed how impressed people are that it is funded from the personal fortune of a millionaire astronaut.

Or are the statistics only worthwhile when they support your desktop environment?
Since the Ubuntu Forums statistics are so thoroughly out of whack with everything else I've seen, I can't help but see them as an anomaly. Maybe this is remiss/ dishonest of me; I honestly don't know :/

Oh yeah -- and of course KDE is getting more commits, etc, than GNOME. They are between major version numbers; GNOME isn't.
Well ... I can't see how this doesn't reinforce my point that KDE is more active, especially as GNOME have no plans [gnome.org] to embark on a major release.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1)

dalutong (260603) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000143)

Oh yeah -- and of course KDE is getting more commits, etc, than GNOME. They are between major version numbers; GNOME isn't.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1)

oever (233119) | more than 6 years ago | (#19001139)

I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't know there would not be another big GNOME update.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1)

aiwarrior (1030802) | more than 6 years ago | (#19001223)

Even though your information may be true ( i didn't check some facts ) i disagree with you about the "badness" of gnome. You say Gnome is bad in all ways but you also mention that you really dont understand why its still pushed on Ubunutu. I give you a hint. It works. And the fact is that the major part of linux newbie migrants start in Ubuntu and stay. Guess again whats the default desktop environment?Gnome.

Now i have worked most of the times with kde in other distros(Gentoo, Debian etc) and i know that kde is ahead in terms of features, customization and code quality, but eventually they get in the way, at least in my oppinion.

Linus Trovalds says gnome sucks cause it hides options from the users...well i agree with the hiding part but not the suck part. If i really am going to do some extreme config theres no way im going to navigate in a nice GUI, i'll just go to the *.conf file and do my bussiness.
This suits both the newbies, which aren't plagued by crazy technical terms and advanced users as it doesnt create wrapping config files that confuse the overall hierarchy of standard linux to the advanced users.

You are welcome to disagree with me :D

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1)

drgonzo59 (747139) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999489)

the more that the distros push GNOME, they more that they shoot themselves in the foot

Ubuntu's Gnome foot (Gnome logo pun intended) looks pretty good so far.

I was an avid KDE user, used it exclusively on Redhat, Mandriva then SuSE. When I switched to Ubuntu, I promptly added the Kubuntu metapackage to get my KDE back. But then, after playing with a 1001 configuration preferences in KDE I wanted to revert back some settings, it took me a very long time to find them.

Eventually I came to the seemingly paradoxical conclusion that "more configuration choices for a desktop" does not always equal to a good thing. (By the way, Apple has known that for a very long time, and I think they invested more into UI design and research more than any other company ). I wanted good fixed defaults and applications that just worked. I found myself logging into GNOME more and more and eventually I just stopped using KDE altogether. I find GNOME simpler, cleaner and more consistent. As a programmer I would rather develop in KDE and Qt but as an end user I like the GNOME Desktop better hands down....

Re:KDE vs Gnome (2, Interesting)

phrasebook (740834) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999673)

But then, after playing with a 1001 configuration preferences in KDE I wanted to revert back some settings, it took me a very long time to find them.

Name them. Go on, I dare you.

Refer to one of my earlier posts [slashdot.org] if you need some help.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1)

Curien (267780) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999805)

The option that always pisses me off is the one that allows you to change from 'single-click activate' to 'double-click activate'. I end up looking through all the various "Look & Feel" panels to no avail. (Yes, I know where the option is, but I have to hunt for it every time.)

The main problem, to me, is that KDE doesn't differentiate between per-user and system-wide System Settings, but the labels imply that it does. "Personal" and "Look & Feel" are obviously per-user, and "Computer Administration" implies to me that those are system-wide. In reality, it's a mish-mash of the two. This is an important distinction for me, as my wife and I both use the same computer with different profiles.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18999929)

You know, there's a reason [imageshack.us] that the KDE devs went to the trouble of writing a Search tool for you. Car Analogy: This makes as much sense as complaining that cars suck because they make it hard to drive them if you use your knees to steer and your head to depress the accelerator.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1)

EsbenMoseHansen (731150) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000011)

The option that always pisses me off is the one that allows you to change from 'single-click activate' to 'double-click activate'. I end up looking through all the various "Look & Feel" panels to no avail. (Yes, I know where the option is, but I have to hunt for it every time.)

It took me 10 seconds to find, even though I didn't know it was there. How? Open KControl. Type "double" in the search bar. Select the first suggestion.

Of course, this wouldn't work with the awful, awful configuration dialog that Kubuntu supplies. Deinstall it, it is not worth the bytes on your harddrive. I hear it is a clone from the Mac; if so I pity the Mac people for yet another reason.

The main problem, to me, is that KDE doesn't differentiate between per-user and system-wide System Settings, but the labels imply that it does. "Personal" and "Look & Feel" are obviously per-user, and "Computer Administration" implies to me that those are system-wide. In reality, it's a mish-mash of the two. This is an important distinction for me, as my wife and I both use the same computer with different profiles.
That's a good point. Is there a bug report on this on the bug tracker [kde.org]? Of course, you can infer it from the question "does changing this setting require a password?", but I suppose it could be made clearer than that.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1)

Weedlekin (836313) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000455)

" I hear it is a clone from the Mac; if so I pity the Mac people for yet another reason."

OS X's "System Preferences" dialogue has a search bar that works extremely well: it not only drops down a list of "hits", but highlights the applet(s) containing each term as one moves through them, and will take users to the correct page of the relevant applet when a term is selected. The Kubuntu configuration system you are describing is not therefore a clone of the Mac one, irrespective of what you may have heard.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1)

drgonzo59 (747139) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999945)

As a presumed KDE user you should be the one naming them and listing why would every single user need to have that particular option. I on the other hand, don't use KDE anymore, I forgot all the options as I don't have to worry about remembering them .

Re:KDE vs Gnome (2, Insightful)

Daniel Phillips (238627) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999573)

Considering that GNOME is the default on suse, it is amazing. It looks like the more that the distros push GNOME, they more that they shoot themselves in the foot. Hopefully, this survey will stop that crap, but I am guessing that Novell will disregard this part.

Obviously, Novell pushes Gnome because Novell does not have nearly the same level of control of KDE as they do of Gnome, where a number of Gnome poster boys are on payroll. Ahem, and it is no exaggeration that Microsoft is now paying part of those Gnome paychecks. Odd.

To be honest I find it more than a little amusing that Microsoft has chosen to fund (with its "patent" deal) development work on a Linux desktop system. However much I prefer the other desktop, I do not deny that competition between desktops has value. What I do not like is Novell tilting the playing field, turning it more into a political competition and deep pockets competition than an honest features, performance and usability competition.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18999959)

I really like a lot of the work that KDE has done with the desktop. They've made it nice, and have added a lot of really cool usability features that I wish were added to Gnome. I've almost always had both Gnome and KDE installed on my computer, but I still almost never use KDE.

The problem with KDE is that it's buggy. I get a constant stream of segmentation faults every time I use it. The reason that I switched to Linux on my main desktop computer ( back when RedHat 7.0 was still brand new) was stability. While KDE on Linux continues to make Windows ME look rock solid I'm afraid that I really can't recommend it to anyone.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000241)

Uh. The reason it is default is because they want to take as many steps away as possible for the SLES and SLED version.

It is only default. If you wish, you can still install KDE, XFCE, Windowmaker or whatever you like. You can even make your own SUSE based distribution [opensuse.org] for your company, including your own logo's and software (Eat that RedHat and CentOSS)

Also openSUSE still leaves you the choice as what you want to install.

So So saying that Novell is pushing GNOME is mere FUD. I would say they worked hard to bring GNOME on the same level as their KDE.

Re:KDE vs Gnome (1)

friedman101 (618627) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999689)

When I started using Linux several years ago, it seemed that most users were running KDE, but lately with the huge success of Gnome and Gnome-origented distributions, I was expecting to see a higher adoption rate of Gnome (yes, even among Suse users).

I think I wanted to make the exact opposite of this post. For awhile Gnome was the face of linux because QT wasn't free (as in speech) and GTK was. Now that's changed and KDE (thankfully) is winning this battle.

Re:KDE vs Gnome - a theory (2, Insightful)

Balinares (316703) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000795)

I've long thought that distros generally prefer GNOME (probably for license and looks-better-out-of-the-box reasons) but users have different criteria about desktop environment choices (looks better after tweaking, does everything you want, fast, and otherwise remains very much out of your way, etc). It is interesting that distros and users should have wants driving them to opposite choices, though, and probably goes to show that Linux has already spread far, far beyond the demographic of geeks that take part in its development.

Ah... commence lowering of hope. (1)

Jarn_Firebrand (845277) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999143)

I had hoped that after all these years, the % of females who use Linux would have improved. Granted, this is only SUSE, but 539 out of 27000 isn't very good odds.

But we could have one hell of a bukakke session!

Re:Ah... commence lowering of hope. (1)

Tatsh (893946) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999335)

Haha. Would you even talk to any of them anyway if there were, what you consider, "enough" women using Linux? :P

Re:Ah... commence lowering of hope. (1)

essence (812715) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999577)

I had hoped that after all these years, the % of females who use Linux would have improved. Granted, this is only SUSE, but 539 out of 27000 isn't very good odds.

But we could have one hell of a bukakke session!
Well maybe if people like you stopped making such gross remarks about women, more women would join the community.

Re:Ah... commence lowering of hope. (1)

jgrahn (181062) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999769)

I had hoped that after all these years, the % of females who use Linux would have improved. Granted, this is only SUSE, but 539 out of 27000 isn't very good odds.
But we could have one hell of a bukakke session!
Well maybe if people like you stopped making such gross remarks about women, more women would join the community.

Or at least women with no sense of humor. The point of that joke was obviously directed at the male users, not women. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been funny.

Prizes for completing the survey... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18999155)

...include:

If you want to take part in the drawing for five 1 GByte USB sticks and one 80 GByte portable hard disc from Teac, please supply your e-mail address.
This survey must be really old as it probably costs more to ship those prizes now than what they're worth.

Of course, I'm not trying to diss them, but I think most people would do the survey regardless of prizes. It makes Novell look rather cheap to be offering those prizes ;)

It's bigger but it's not new (1, Interesting)

queenb**ch (446380) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999157)

The survey data isn't really telling us anything we don't know already about linux users. Linux users are technophiles who still cannot accomplish everything without having to resort to a command line. This means that linux ain't ready for the Windoze using masses. Almost all of you are men, which makes me feel left out again. Many of the applications that linux is deployed in, even in the home, are still not the primary workstation type-uses - router, firewall, web server, print server. You download your disks and you still aren't using it at work all that much.

There may be more respondents, but the data is still the same.

2 cents,

Queen B.

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18999193)

Since you are a lesbian, you fall into the "men" category.

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (2, Funny)

queenb**ch (446380) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999273)

Oh and I suppose you thought that my "it's bigger but it's not new" comment meant you???

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (1, Offtopic)

sqrt(2) (786011) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999207)

Have you tried Ubuntu? It's probably the most refreshing experience with Linux I've ever had, everything really is done just as well if not better than with Windows. That's not to say that it doesn't have it's hiccups every now and then, but honestly so does Windows. I'm probably more capable of fixing problems on Windows, but the support from the experienced Ubuntu user base is amazing, and fast.

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (5, Insightful)

kebes (861706) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999311)

who still cannot accomplish everything without having to resort to a command line
Hold on a second... where are you drawing that conclusion from? Is it because 64% of respondents answered "Yes" to the question "Do you use non-graphical tools when installing or administering your Linux operating system?" ??

I don't think that's the correct conclusion to draw. The 64% merely shows that alot of Linux users prefer the commandline, because it is quite powerful and efficient. If anything, the fact that 36% of users are able to install software and administer their box without ever touching the commandline is evidence that you don't need to touch the commandline in a modern Linux distro. (Unless you think that 36% of openSUSE users never install software or make changes to their system?)

I agree that many Linux users are technophiles and love the commandline (I know I do), but in a modern Linux distro, there are graphical tools to do just about everything. So can we stop propagating the myth that only UNIX-gurus can run Linux?

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (1)

renoX (11677) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999697)

>64% merely shows that alot of Linux users prefer the commandline, because it is quite powerful and efficient.

Note that it can be because the commandline is efficient or because the GUI tools provided by the distribution sucks: a long time ago, Mandrake's upgrade tool was quite good in the commandline version, but the corresponding GUI shell sucked big time, which made me loose quite some time because while the GUI was easy to find, its commandline counterpart was "hidden"..

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (1)

forgotten_my_nick (802929) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999911)

> Hold on a second... where are you drawing that conclusion from?

Well me personally I would take it from experience. It has come a long way but there are still a lot of things that require you to have some knowledge of the command line to get it working at all.

It is quite annoying and it will turn off the non-tech savvy user.

Saying there is graphical options to do things as well doesn't always mean it is easier. For example I have openSuse and I had to change network settings. Did I use the icon in the status bar? The network settings in the control center? The Hardware settings in the control center? The network settings in YaST? Or the command line?

Answer = Command line because it was the only instructions I could find to help fix an issue I had.

Now you show some newbie that they have to guess between 4 options (technically 5 as one option breaks off into two other options). They aren't going to do it when Windows is just one option to learn.

Linux is a brilliant operating system and if it wasn't for that annoyance I would of moved all my machines over to it by now.

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000275)

For me it is the right tool at the right time. Some times I edit files directly with vi. Other times I use the YaST GUI.. It is as if you ask a carpenter what he uses, a hammer or a screwdriver.

They are not realy OR/OR questions, they should be AND/AND questions.

Oh and using YaST can be done form the CLI as well. ;-)

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (1)

Secret Rabbit (914973) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999351)

"""
The survey data isn't really telling us anything we don't know already about linux users. Linux users are technophiles who still cannot accomplish everything without having to resort to a command line. This means that linux ain't ready for the Windoze using masses.
"""

I'd honestly like to know how you got from A to B on this one i.e. Just b/c the techie's /prefer/ the command line does _not_ mean a GUI doesn't exist or is crap. It just means that they don't typically use it. So what?

"""
Almost all of you are men, which makes me feel left out again.
"""

The primary gender of the user base makes you feel "left out"? You can't be serious.

"""
Many of the applications that linux is deployed in, even in the home, are still not the primary workstation type-uses - router, firewall, web server, print server.
"""

What does this have to do with anything? So what, Linux is not primarily used for lots of things. Does that mean that it /can't/ be used for those lots of things? Obviously not. Especially when you have things like OpenOffice running around. I mean, seriously. The only thing that Linux does /not/ have going for it is games. And event that is starting to change.

"""
You download your disks and you still aren't using it at work all that much.
"""

You may not, but in every job that I've had, I've used it for /every/ /single/ /task/; from administrative type tasks to development.

"""
There may be more respondents, but the data is still the same.
"""

But the conclusion is only the same if you ignore other advances e.g. GUI pretty much everything. Just b/c the techies prefer not to use them doesn't mean that they aren't there. And it doesn't mean that the GUI's aren't friendly.

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (2)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999505)

Do you have a problem with or phobia of men? I ask because I don't understand why the gender of others would cause you to feel left out.

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (1)

Helldesk Hound (981604) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999539)

> Linux users are technophiles who still cannot accomplish everything
> without having to resort to a command line. This means that linux ain't
> ready for the Windoze using masses. Almost all of you are men, which makes
> me feel left out again. Many of the applications that linux is deployed
> in, even in the home, are still not the primary workstation
> type-uses - router, firewall, web server, print server.

Funny that, but I use SuSE Linux 10.2 as my everyday desktop box.
I also use FreeBSD Unix as my file/print server, and SmoothWall Linux as my network firewall/router.

That is what I have at home.

I have to support M$ Windows based PCs at work.

Perhaps it is worth noting that there are things on Windows PCs that *still* require the use of a command prompt - that cannot be done from a GUI.

Things such as, ipconfig & ping - two very useful utilities.

What do I do on my Linux desktop that is easier done using a command prompt? SSHing into my File server - and I only need to do that for administrative purposes.

Perhaps in your sexist bitching about men vs women, have you ever stopped to consider that we are ALL equal human beings?

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (1)

Curien (267780) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999839)

XP has GUI functionality for pretty much all of ipconfig (and in fact does better than an ipconfig /release && ipconfig /renew -- that doesn't /completely/ refresh the IP). But you're right about ping. And add traceroute to the list as well as about half the functionality of the "net" command. Pretty much the first thing I do when logging into Windows is open a command line. (Actually, I open two -- one as me, and one runas'ed an administrator.)

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (1)

jgrahn (181062) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999789)

Almost all of you are men, which makes me feel left out again.

It should make you feel special.

Or better, you should try not to think too much of the relation between yourself and some piece of non-scientific, badly laid out statistics.

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18999941)

Almost all of you are men, which makes me feel left out again.
Pandering to the crowd?

but I'm working with bash since it's what I prefer (1)

zukinux (1094199) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000089)

I do not work with bash since I cannot do this stuff on the gui / whatever.
I work with bash because it's much faster/easier/comfortable/more powerful then the gui.

Now, after 3.5 Linux years, I don't know how I've used Windows before, Shell is one of the best Linux advantages, why we as linux users would want to denial of using it. (and no, power-shell or cygwin are not even 1% of Linux's shell potential).

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19000115)

Windows isn't ready either.

I wanna add a new route to the system... go to the command line.
Wanna add a host/ip mapping... edit %windir/system32/drivers/etc/hosts

Let's not mention the registry. Wanna re-enable that setting that your soundcard drivers disabled (fucking Dell) do a search on the registry for disableMicMonitoring.

There are plenty of examples that show that windows users need to learn to go to the command line, edit files and, on top of that, learn to use the registry, which is a few times more obscure than named text files in Linux.

Re:It's bigger but it's not new (1)

Loke the Dog (1054294) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000389)

"I wanna add a new route to the system... go to the command line.
Wanna add a host/ip mapping... edit %windir/system32/drivers/etc/hosts"

You don't need the command line for that. Yes, the registry is annoying, but I dont need to edit it every time I try to install a dowloaded app. In ubuntu, I have yet to find an app outside Synaptic that didnt need a lot of command line typing to work.

Not using the command line (2, Interesting)

gnu-sucks (561404) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999187)

What really surprised me (besides the large number of female users... haha) is that 36% of the users survayed DO NOT use "non-graphical tools (e.g. YaST text mode, console) when installing or administering your Linux operating system"

Either desktop linux tools have changed a lot in the past few years, or these people aren't digging that far into their systems.

Re:Not using the command line (1)

baileydau (1037622) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999395)

36% of the users survayed DO NOT use "non-graphical tools (e.g. YaST text mode, console) when installing or administering your Linux operating system"
Either desktop linux tools have changed a lot in the past few years, or these people aren't digging that far into their systems.

Actually YaST and the other GUI tools are pretty good. You *can* do pretty much everything you need to for normal (and quite often advanced) administration tasks if you want to.

I personally prefer the command line for a lot of things, but I do use the GUI tools a bit as well.

That's the beauty of Linux, you can use the GUI if you want to, or you can use the CLI and you can switch between.

Re:Not using the command line (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#18999411)

linux has improved a lot since I started using it in 1994.

I have been booting Damn Small Linux on windows machines lately, and find that I
don't need to do any administration at all. The box just worx for me.

It finds my printers, it configures the network card for dhcp, and the video
card works without issues.

I would guess that 36% of the people just want to turn on the computer and do their job.
Modern linux allows people to do just this. Click Click, and away we go.

Re:Not using the command line (2, Interesting)

thrawn_aj (1073100) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999507)

these people aren't digging that far into their systems.
Hmm, perhaps they are, oh I don't know, busy folks who have barely enough time to USE their machines towards the purpose for which they bought it :P?

[sarcasm]

You know what? I'm a physicist, and I am seriously offended at people who show no curiosity whatsoever about the quantum mechanical theory of the semiconductor (which after all, is the basis of the whole shebang) when they use their computers every day.

[/sarcasm] Oh wait, that's rather stupid isn't it?

I have just as much contempt for this flavor of arrogance as I do for the macho idiots who sneer at you if you get an oil change at a shop rather than do it yourself :P.

[offtopic rant]

I have used the Linux commandline in numerous stages of my life (as also DOS and even VMS) and I wasn't impressed. Memorizing arcane commands to do simple things (vi as a text editor is an extreme example of its absurdity) is on par with memorizing Clebsch-Gordon coefficients :P. Above all, why it's become fashionable to run these tasks in your own personal RAM (*points to brain*) when the mindless computing machine in front of you can handle them quite easily is a mystery to me. It's all so...twentieth century... that I'm amazed that people actually consider that "advanced". I would rather have the workstation do the things it's supposed to do behind the scenes and spare me the irrelevant details so I can actually focus on the task at hand.

[/offtopic rant]

Re:Not using the command line (1)

CannonballHead (842625) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999529)

Interesting post - I agree. I enjoy using linux... I'm not a huge fan of the command line. Yeah, it's kinda geeky I guess, but I like graphical text editors better than Vi, I like using YAST and not the command line to edit my preferences and hardware, and I like using NetworkManager instead of ifup (unless I absolutely have to configure two IPs for a nic or something like that).

It'd be akin to me firmly disputing that a DOS word processor is far superior to any sort of modern word processor.

May as well just get a black and white screen and forget all this color nonsense.

I do admit that the command line is helpful at times, though.

Re:Not using the command line (1)

Jussi K. Kojootti (646145) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999779)

It'd be akin to me firmly disputing that a DOS word processor is far superior to any sort of modern word processor.
Of course, for that comparison to be valid, "a DOS word processor" would have to be immensely more powerful and useful in various situations than the modern one.

The analogy could only be better if it was about cars...

Re:Not using the command line (4, Insightful)

jgrahn (181062) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999745)

I have used the Linux commandline in numerous stages of my life (as also DOS and even VMS) and I wasn't impressed. Memorizing arcane commands to do simple things (vi as a text editor is an extreme example of its absurdity) is on par with memorizing Clebsch-Gordon coefficients :P.

You are wrong, or at least wired differently from me and other command-line people.

It's not about memorizing arcane commands. It's about being able and willing to research the tools while using them. "How can I use the find command to list all files larger than a gigabyte? *browses the man page* Oh, that's how. *back to work*" If you still know how two weeks later; fine. If not, you simply read the man page again.

And seriously, how is a GUI better? Take the MS Word preferences which I battled yesterday. A tiny window filled with twelve tabbed screens which jump around at random, each containing more than a dozen settings and frequently sub-dialogues. And no useful reference documentation which explains what these bloody settings actually do.

Above all, why it's become fashionable to run these tasks in your own personal RAM (*points to brain*) when the mindless computing machine in front of you can handle them quite easily is a mystery to me.

It's not fashion; many of us seriously believe the command-line way is superior for most tasks. I truly cannot see how not doing that way somehow offloads work from your brain to the computer. My experience is exactly the opposite -- pointless memorizing, futile searching and mindless repetive tasks is something I associate with non-commandlines (i.e. using Windows and GUI applications).

Re:Not using the command line (1)

Dhalka226 (559740) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000763)

I have just as much contempt for this flavor of arrogance as I do for the macho idiots who sneer at you if you get an oil change at a shop rather than do it yourself

So much so, it seems, that you explode even when there is no arrogance demonstrated.

"Either desktop linux tools have changed a lot in the past few years, or these people aren't digging that far into their systems." That's all he said. There was no value judgment. He didn't declare that these were clearly a lesser breed of human being because of it. There was not even a judgment made about whether or not digging into your system is good or bad, just an implication that you need command-line tools to do so (or that things have changed lately).

Maybe he did mean all the things you assumed he meant, but he certainly did not say them. Let's constrain our rants to actual insults rather than imagined ones.

To make this useful (1)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999191)

they need to conduct the same survey across ALL the distros at the same time. Perhaps set it up again, but get the others to link to it. It would be interesting to see how they all stack up.

Re:To make this useful (1)

daniorerio (1070048) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000767)

One interesting thing that struck me was the high score for "improved hardware support" in "what should be in future versions". Which is actually what Ubuntu has been working on in their last release. Apparently you don't need a big survey to figure this out ;)

Results (1)

Psychotria (953670) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999469)

I like reading results of surveys such as this. However, I always find myself comparing the results to how I would answer. I am a developer, so results like these are invaluable... they highlight that not everyone (not even the majority) of users think/perceive differently to me. It's a great wakeup call.

SuSE - just not up to par.. for me. (1)

Vskye (9079) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999559)

I've used it on and off. I actually bought the retail packages for the 5.x and 7.x releases and always went back to debian. I also gave 10.x series a shot, and for me it's been yast that has sucked compared to apt. Maybe I'm just not patient enough, but yast is slow. As far as I'm concerned, debian based releases are just far easier to maintain. SuSE on the other hand does seem to support more hardware out of the box, (for the most part) and the UI is a tad better from the system/hardware point of view.
 
I figured that SuSE would be on top by now, but it's not happening at this point and time. (any yes, I realize you can use apt in SuSE.. not the same)

Re:SuSE - just not up to par.. for me. (1)

apokryphos (869208) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000147)

Package Manager != YaST. There are great improvements on speed with Libzypp in 10.2, but there's really exciting things planned for this with the new cache introduced into Libzypp for 10.3, so I really do recommend you try that out (when it's out).

100% e-mail response? (2, Insightful)

navyjeff (900138) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999567)

Is anyone else wondering how they managed to get 21,171 e-mail address responses when they had only 21,165 respondents to the survey?

Seems like some restaurant math to me.

Re:100% e-mail response? (1)

pixelite (20946) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000567)

(skipped this question) 6297

you probably missed the next page. there was actually 27k people surveyed.

That was the most useless survey I've ever seen. (-1, Troll)

pair-a-noyd (594371) | more than 6 years ago | (#18999759)

I mean really. WTF does it prove? Nothing.
Not one question addresses the M$/Novell situation.

That one single issue is more important to EVERYONE than any or all of the other questions combined.
No one gives a crap that X number of people over the age of 50 use Open Suse.
EVERYONE gives a crap as to what's going on behind closed doors at M$ and Novell.

Come on Novell, that was exceptionally lame. Who are you trying to impress with your doubleplusgood survery?

Re:That was the most useless survey I've ever seen (2, Insightful)

apokryphos (869208) | more than 6 years ago | (#19000137)

If you got out of your trolling tantrum you'd realise the survey was about the _distribution_ and not political opinions on political decisions. The survey was to get information about the usage of openSUSE, opinions from the users, and hard-data from those taking it. It succeeded, and just because you don't find the information interesting, it's not to say that it's not very important.

I want a Vista Survey that way (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19000479)

15. Where do you usually get Microsoft[R] Windows Vista[TM]?

Steal it from computer or software shop 7%
Download from thepiratebay homepage 70%
"Free CD" from friends (hey, they said it's free) 10%
I actually bought it. 3%
Other (please specify) 10%

Accuracy guaranteed (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19000685)

The survey was live for almost 3 months and more than 27,000 users participated, making it one of the largest Linux distribution surveys ever.

And to make sure the survey was as accurate as possible, I personally voted over 80 times.
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