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Users Being Migrated To New Version of Hotmail

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the windows-live-inspires-confidence dept.

215

An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft has started work on migrating Hotmail users to a new version after testing the new system on select customers for almost two years. Microsoft stated in the article that more than 20 million users provided feedback to the new-look Hotmail. 'For now, Microsoft will give Hotmail users the option to continue using the old version if they don't want to switch to the upgraded version. However, at some point, everyone will be unilaterally migrated over to Windows Live Hotmail ... New users will be automatically signed up for Windows Live Hotmail but, like any user of the new service, they will get to choose from two user interfaces: a "classic" layout that closely resembles the old Hotmail; or the new interface, which was designed to look like Microsoft's Outlook e-mail and calendaring desktop application.'"

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215 comments

20 Million users contributed feedback (5, Insightful)

hudsonhawk (148194) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038531)

...and none of them asked for a "Mark as read" button?

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (1)

sarathmenon (751376) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038599)

Its a feature, not a bug! How else would you be forced to read all those emails?

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (2, Insightful)

EvilEddie (243404) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038613)

Too little too late.....gmail and yahoo mail must have stole alot of market share.

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19039135)

Check out the bar graph at ZDNET [zdnet.com]. Yahoo and Hotmail are virtually tied with Gmail significantly behind.

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (1)

Ucklak (755284) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039293)

Because Gmail required invitations for the first few years and is horrible on retreiving lost account info.

I received in invitation years ago, signed up but realy didn't use it. Now I can't sign up using that old email I used to register and I'm not able to retreive the old account info from Google.

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (1)

chris_mahan (256577) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039703)

OLPC is giving a gmail account with each of the machines. That should be interesting if it really takes off.

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (4, Funny)

fondacio (835785) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038633)

Right-click message, "mark as read", done. Unless you're on an Apple, of course...

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19038977)

What kind of an idiot moderator modded parent as "Troll"?

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (0, Offtopic)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039085)

What kind of an idiot moderator modded parent as "Troll"?

Probably the kind that isn't an idiot and is using a three button trackball on a mac, like I am. Any comment referencing lack of multi-button support on macs is almost certainly trolling. A few years ago, maybe they were just ignorant, but come on this is Slashdot where that crap was debunked in various articles once a week for a year straight.

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19039221)

I thought it was funny because what's the likelihood that a 2+ button mac user would be using a hotmail account?

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (0, Offtopic)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039299)

I thought it was funny because what's the likelihood that a 2+ button mac user would be using a hotmail account?

Well, all macs now ship with either multibutton (mighty)mice or trackpads that support the same functionality via chording. So, pretty good.

mod? (1)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039725)

How is a discussion of the interface to Hotmail with regard to Apple's standard mouse configurations, offtopic for an article about the new interface to Hotmail?

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19040041)

Again, who are all these people buying current macs and also signing up for hotmail accounts? It's not so much whether they could as it is, why would they want to? That's what's funny. Or was until it had to get explained to death.

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19039071)

Sure, it must be a troll because everybody knows Apple has had a multiple-button mouse as standard equipment since day one.

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (2, Informative)

vertinox (846076) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039257)

I know you are trying to be humorous, but if Live is anything like Outlook Web Access 2003, you will be missing a good deal of features because you aren't running it in IE (like the right click options). This would apply to Fire Fox users on Windows as well.

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (2, Informative)

Columcille (88542) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040433)

It's nothing like Outlook Web Access. Windows Live Mail is actually a pretty slick interface, and runs perfectly fine in Firefox. I still prefer gmail over Live Mail, but Microsoft at least moved substantially in the right direction.

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (1)

jbravo556 (869118) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040123)

Talk about interface inconsistency. Why is 'Mark as Unread' a button and 'Mark as Read' isn't? Also, in my Safari, right clicking the message doesn't pop up a menu containing 'Mark as read'.

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (2, Insightful)

joconor (889441) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040359)

This illustrates how Microsoft has taken User Interface development down a very bad path.

The original Mac OS UI standardized on a single location to find actions: The Menu Bar. Whatever you had to do, you knew where to look. This was in direct contrast to command line applications where you either had to keep the commands in your head, or look them up in documentation. Now, we have a proliferation of places to look for actions in a graphical interface: Menu Bar, multiple Toolbars, contextual menus, etc. This proliferation of places to look for actions is leading to greater UI confusion, and back to the UI problem of command line applications, as evidenced by the poster who didn't realize there was a way to mark an email as 'read' in the new Hotmail. The graphical interface is supposed to show you what you can do, you're not supposed to have to 'just know'. I find contextual menus particularly egregious, as there is no 'affordance' to indicate to the user that there's anything to look for. Does one just randomly right-click on everything to see if it has a contextual menu associated with it? Bah. UI design at its worst.

Unfortunately, due to the monopoly position of Windows, even the Mac OS has been forced to go down this path of providing toolbars and contextual menus. One mitigating trend I've observed in some (not all) Macintosh software is the use of contextual menus to duplicate operations presented in the menu bar.

UI design needs to return to a single canonical location to find operations (the Menu Bar). If UI designers want to use Toolbars and contextual menus, use them only as shortcuts for operations that are already presented in the Menu Bar.

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (0, Redundant)

simscitizen (696184) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038933)

  1. Select message.
  2. Right click and hit "Mark as Read"

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (5, Insightful)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039251)

Right click and hit "Mark as Read"

The fact that there is a mechanism for this does not refute the previous poster's point. Right-clicking should never, ever be the only way to get to some functionality. I'm not sure I've ever seen a interface design or usability book that did not mention this. I think even MS's own UI design guidelines mention it. Right-clciking and selecting a menu option is a lot slower and less learnable than a button, but aside from that the important thing is relying upon multiple buttons breaks the interface for a wide variety of alternative input methods. Try doing that using a screen reader for the blind, or a stylus on a tablet, or even using MS's own voice recognition interface. Try it on a touch screen kiosk, using a control stick for people with palsey, or using a browser that does not support that function for one reason or another.

When people are lower level developers and don't have any real UI training and are creating an application for internal use or for a special purpose with limited audience, I can forgive this sort of thing. When one of the largest software development houses on the planet does it for a program they plan to roll to millions of the general public it is just fucking absurd. I want to know. Where does MS hire their UI people and why can't they manage to avoid basic mistakes that have been known to the industry for decades now?

Re:20 Million users contributed feedback (1)

jZnat (793348) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040073)

This is why Apple computers still come with only one mouse button (mighty mouse needs to enable extra buttons): Apple is able to "incentivize" developers to make absolutely sure that the UI is fully usable without a right click button. Microsoft can't force this, hence millions of context menus.

The fact that Microsoft aren't even following their own UI guidelines is pretty stupid, though.

As though millions of users contributed feedback.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19040165)

...and were suddenly silenced.

ObMoffTarkin: "Now we will show them the true power of this battlestation."

Google copy (1)

wift (164108) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040377)

Just switched my MSN account over to it and it just looks like a copy of what Google does. Customized page, drag n'drop, AJAX interface. They still take you to the next message when you delete within an email instead of directly back to the inbox.

I left hotmail when I went over the 2mb limit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19038549)

Switching email addresses is enough of a pain in the ass that I didn't even want to. But some bean counter decided holding pepole's email accounts hostage for money was a smart business plan. Now I'm on gmail and im obviously never going back.

Good job, Microshaft

Dropping the Web-based E-mail Ball (5, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038583)

Two years ago, the company I work for began offering MS Outlook through the web to employees. At first I was skeptical, I didn't think it would be that useful. But, a year after that, it was seriously fully functional Outlook over a website. I also use Hotmail for my personal life and had wondered why in the hell Microsoft didn't apply the same great ideas from the web-based Outlook client to their Hotmail site. I don't think my company would drop its control of its Exchange Servers if Hotmail offered the same look and feel. I didn't think Microsoft would lose any business at all but they would have cornered the market in e-mail.

Sometime between a year ago and today, it's become fully compliant with Firefox 2.0--I'm pretty impressed and actually don't mind using web-based Outlook when I'm out of the office.

Why did Microsoft sit on their hands as Google slowly built up their capabilities to match those of Outlook? Why didn't Microsoft work on porting what they had done for Outlook to their Hotmail servers? I guess server load could always be the answer to those questions but I'm starting to think that Microsoft thought Hotmail would always be number one in personal e-mail. Thankfully, it looks like the competition is putting the pressure on them to improve their service.

I used this tool two years ago, way to drop the ball, Microsoft. You could have beat Google to a calendar application and solidified Hotmail.

Re:Dropping the Web-based E-mail Ball (5, Insightful)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038677)

I don't think that Hotmail was ever number 1 in online email. I think the only reason that anybody signed up was because they wanted to use MSN messenger, and it's extremely hard for most people to figure out that you can use a non-hotmail address, let alone figuring out the process for actually doing so. I've always found their spam filtering, amount of space (2 MB up until google's huge storage made them upgrade it) , and entire interface to be lacking. The biggest missing feature is an option to "Mark as read" as another poster pointed out. The only reason so many people have signed up, is because they think it's the only way to get on MSN Messenger.

Re:Dropping the Web-based E-mail Ball (5, Informative)

Bogtha (906264) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038893)

I don't think that Hotmail was ever number 1 in online email.

Assuming you mean webmail, then yes, HoTMaiL most certainly was number one at one time. It was practically synonymous with webmail. That's why Microsoft bought it.

Re:Dropping the Web-based E-mail Ball (1)

parkrrrr (30782) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039297)

The biggest missing feature is a way to keep the spam from Microsoft's "partners" from pushing the real mail out of your mailbox.

Re:Dropping the Web-based E-mail Ball (2, Interesting)

ady1 (873490) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039665)

Why did Microsoft sit on their hands as Google slowly built up their capabilities to match those of Outlook?
for teh same reason the didn't upgrade IE for several years. There was no competetion in the webmail space. Yahoo! was virtually the only reliable alternate service and it sucked.

I guess server load could always be the answer to those questions
Are you kidding me? that is how microsoft operates. They never improve a product unless:
1. Its market place is in danger or
2. It's a new product.

Re:Dropping the Web-based E-mail Ball (1)

jZnat (793348) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040147)

What about ISP webmail? Or the millions of SquirrelMail and other webmail apps strewn across the intarwebs? Hotmail had lots of competition, but Yahoo! was probably one of the few (if any) large enough to be considered a competitor.

Re:Dropping the Web-based E-mail Ball (3, Interesting)

AirRaven (843900) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039867)

My only gripe with Windows Live Hotmail's Firefox support is that it automatically kicks you down to the slower, less flashy "classic" view if you access it from a Linux client- if you spoof your User Agent string to make it appear that you're using Firefox on Windows, the full AJAX interface works perfectly.

Blatant OS Discrimination from Microsoft. But then, what else is new?

Hotmail features (4, Funny)

sakdoctor (1087155) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038585)

As long as they keep the 'deliver all mail to the trash' feature they can style it however they like.

Ein Tag im leben von Michael Sims (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19038587)

From http://www.trollaxor.com/2007/05/ein-tag-im-leben- von-michael-sims.html [trollaxor.com]

05:45 The first strains of Das Lied der Deutschen surranged from Michael's speakers, shaking the headboard of his waterbed. Opening a bloodshot eye, Michael peeled the comforter off and crawled to the edge of his bed where he reached out and slapped the space bar of his keyboard. iTunes stopped the nationalistic hymn, leaving the room in a vacuumed silence. Turning to the window, Michael opened his Venetian blinds and inhaled as the sunlight hit him. It was going to be a fine day.

06:00 Michael was still damp from his shower. He'd had just fifteen minutes to soap, scour, and shave before he was due in front of his computer. Michael's rigorous routine was self-imposed as a method of keeping rigid discipline and utter efficiency. Otherwise, he would become soft and weak. He itched his scalp where he'd nicked himself shaving. The blood would stop eventually, Michael thought. The shallowest wounds always bled the most.

Michael loaded Safari and watched as his RSS feeds filled with new posts. He sneered as he proceeded to read the latest from Censoreware.net [censorware.net].

07:45 Michael stretched and cracked his neck. After almost two hours of scouring every site, blog, and post by Seth Finkelstein, Jamie McCarthy, and the entire Slashdot staff, he was stiff. He always tensed when he read the meandering lies of the poisonous vipers that had taken his rightful place on the Internet away from him.

In fact, he noted as iCal alerted him, he had an appointment at the dentist today to address his bruxism. Michael had been told he sounded like a trash compactor at night as he slept, slowly chewing his teeth apart. He only remembered his dreams of vengeance.

08:30 Reading the latest issue of Time magazine, Michael sneered at the media's latest attempt to besmear Adolf Hitler by likening Saddam Hussein to him. Hussein was just an amateur, Michael thought. Germany would have marched through Iraq and taken it without a shot if it hadn't been for the inept Italians losing North Africa.

His fantasy was interrupted by the cute blonde receptionist as she called him to follow her back to his exam room. As he clomped to the back of the building in his jackboots, he saw that her roots were just as blonde as her ends. Michael paid close attention to people's hair and clothes. How rare a thing real blonde hair was in New York nowadays, Michael mused. Too bad she was female.

11:00 Michael looked at the mouthguard his dentist had given him and recounted his bad luck. He blamed Finkelstein and Malda, the traitorous bastards that had backstabbed him so many times. Were it not for them, Michael deduced as he clenched the steering wheel of his VW bug, he wouldn't have to use this mouthguard. Or the testosterone shots. Or the Viagra. Or the special, embarrassing combo cock-ring condoms. He was worked up now, breathing hard and near tears.

Michael reached for his mobile phone and called Eric Raymond.

12:37 "This is not what you trained me for. Sitting and waiting while our own people disavow me was not part of the plan!" Michael whined into his phone at Eric

Michael was crying, tears streaming down his cheeks. He couldn't believe how even Eric Raymond, his mentor and commander, was shitting all over him. Any other time that would be just fine but not now. Not when Michael's fragile ego was taking a beating.

"Listen, Michael, I'm speaking at a Linux conference this weekend," Eric said. "If you can just settle your ass down and wait a couple days we can get together and talk things out. I know this must be hard for you."

Michael perked up, happy to hear his Teutonic gas-master would be in town soon. "Can- can we go out?" Michael asked, a tremble of hope in his voice.

"Sure, Michael, anywhere you want," Eric said. "Maybe we can check out the leather district. I haven't been there in a while."

"Oh, I know just the place!" Michael cooed. "There's this place called the Forearm and they have free Crisco!"

"That sounds good, Michael," Eric replied. "Just go home and keep busy until I call you Saturday night."

"Okay," Michael said. "I'll polish my uniform. Maybe you should bring your bear-claw mittens [trollaxor.com]!"

"I was just looking for them, Michael," Eric said. "But I have a half-finished bottle of the ol' Jager calling me, so I'm going to take off. I'll see you Saturday night."

"Oh, alright. I'll be ready. Thanks, Eric, I feel a lot better now that we talked. I can't wait to see you."

"Me too," Eric said. "Bye-bye, Michael."

"Bye, Eric," Michael said before he flipped his phone shut.

He put on Wagner's The Flying Dutchman as he turned his bug into traffic toward home.

13:30 The aroma of sauerkraut, knockwurst, and black bread filled Michael's apartment as his microwave churned back and forth. Michael wanted to eat quickly so he could get back to work, monitoring his enemies' sites.

Just the other day someone had posted [slashdot.org] to Slashdot calling him a Nazi. That wasn't a problem, but the accusations of censorship had been. So what if Michael had chosen -- no, had been forced by his enemies -- to modslap an entire discussion thread of thousands of comments over and over again? It was his right and duty as editor at Slashdot when his sacred mission of homosex and Linux was threatened by the tentacles of subversive information.

*BING*

Michael's meal was ready and he snapped out of his reverie. He would equalize things soon enough.

14:00 Michael had fifteen tabs open in Safari, each with a page of Finkelstein's, Malda's, or some other lying subhuman's open. His eyes scanned each back and forth, desperately seeking new acts of betrayal.

Without taking his eyes off of the Slashdot post he was reading, Michael opened iTunes and began the prelude to Tristan und Isolde. In the background DVD Player was showing Der Untergang, Michael's favorite movie. He had watched it sixty-seven times since he'd ordered it from Blockbuster. He was in the zone now, his mood set and his mind hard at work. He had a while to go before he was done.

You never knew when one of eternal betrayers would post something malicious on the Internet.

17:43 Bingo! Michael found a post on a christian music forum talking about how great his latest album was. Not only had Michael not released a christian music album, he couldn't even sing. Years of smoking unfiltered German cigarettes and shouting along to his favorite Oi songs had rendered his voice a gravelly hiss, as if a snake had gargled broken glass. He could only wonder what sort of tricks the rogue's gallery was up to with a post like this.

He emailed the link to Eric and messaged a few of his buddies in #retakedeutschland. After a gaggle of links and questions he still didn't have any leads, but one of his friends promised to crapflood the forum later that night. Satisfied with that he noted the time and decided to hit the gym. If there was one thing the East Village was good for, it was places to work out. Michael grabbed his bag and ID card and headed out the door. He would change down there.

18:09 Pump You Up was busy at this hour of the night, men just getting off work and stopping by for a quick workout before they returned home for the night. Michael scoped the landscape and noted a few promising individuals as he headed toward the locker room. He stripped and put on his spandex shorts, black leather suspenders, and black biker cap. He took some cinnamon oil and rubbed it on his nipples, gave his underarm a whiff, and headed out to the weight room.

Michael zeroed in on one of the guys he'd eyed on the way in, a tanned twenty-something with short, sassy hair and a Totenkopf tattooed on his lower back. He was lifting and needed a spotter, which Michael took care of.

Michael stood over the young twink's head, watching his arms thrust up and down as he lifted. Michael's penis and nutsack were just inches from the lad's face, and Michael imagined that the edge of his penis would just tickle him if he took his shorts down now. But no, Michael told himself, let it build. Let it build like Eric taught you back in boot camp [trollaxor.com]. Michael always liked giving in at the end though. His shorts bulged.

20:00 Eight o'clock and Michael was home on the dot. He'd had just enough time to manhandle the young queen at the gym, shower, dress, and speed back home. His nuts were sore as his handsome young sexual partner had been into penis-and-ball torture and had really given him a workout.

They had role-played a scene where Michael was the Wehrmacht commander in charge of defending Berlin and the young boy was the newly-appointed gauleiter. They had disagreed on tactics and had only settled the matter in the battlefield of a steam room with piano wire and brillo pads

Michael was now spent.

Just as he was putting his bag away, Michael noticed an iChat bubble on his screen. Clicking it, he found a message from the young boy in question.

rapekampfer08: im only 17. do you think that makes it hotter?

Michael sighed in disgust and closed the window. Would he have to start asking to see these peoples' licenses before he rapefucked them? This was the third time this year he'd been duped by an underaged boy and it was only a matter of time before the authorities got involved. He could always stop picking up boys at the gym, he thought. Like that would ever happen.

21:00 After showering and shaving again, Michael began tweezing his eyebrows, highlighting his hair, and bleaching his teeth. It wasn't easy staying good looking. Bedtime was coming up soon and he was eager to end his day.

22:00 10 o'clock exactly, Michael noted as he jumped into bed. He had an hour of reading to do before lights-out. He slept his mini, turned his swastika-shaped nightlight on, and jumped under his original issue SS field blanket, cozying in.

Opening Mein Kampf, Michael turned to his bookmark and began reading. After a chapter of the Führer's theories on Communists and Jews, he had a chapter of The Cathedral and the Bazaar to get down, tonight about how Linux was the answer to the software industry's shortcomings.

Sighing as he read, Michael's shorn head slumped once, twice, and three times toward his chest. He caught himself, waking, and closed the book. The reading would have to wait until tomorrow when he was more awake. The Führer and Eric would forgive him.

After all, he was the most fanatical of their soldiers in the war for faggot Linux Nazism.

Michael clapped twice and the swastika went dark, leaving him alone in his room. He began snoring, senseless to the world until the next day when Das Lied der Deutschen would rouse him from his slumber and he could begin the struggle anew.

That's a lot of feedback! (1)

DogDude (805747) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038601)

Well, here's hoping that they paid attention to that tremendous amount of user feedback. That's pretty impressive. Now, if only Yahoo would pay attention to their users, and fix their badly implemented new version, or at least not force users to switch.

Re:That's a lot of feedback! (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19038849)

And you know what Billg said about each user feedback? "That's the dumbest fucking idea I've heard since I've been at Microsoft."

Re:That's a lot of feedback! (1)

u-bend (1095729) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039001)

> Now, if only Yahoo would pay attention to their users, and fix their badly implemented new version, or at least not force users to switch.

Amen to that. The Yahoo Beta experience operates like Vista on a PIII. It could be the clunkiest web application I've ever been encouraged to use, and it actually made me to go ahead and move to Gmail.

Re:That's a lot of feedback! (1)

Rolgar (556636) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039113)

If all the Yahoo! to be purchased by Microsoft rumors of the last week came true, you might soon see Yahoo! mail from Hotmail by MSN. Then they could roll all of the Yahoo! users into this new interface while they're moving all of the Hotmail users as well. (This might be Google's wet dream.)

Re:That's a lot of feedback! (1)

TrippTDF (513419) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039383)

I see what you are saying, but MS would be stupid to integrate Yahoo mail and Hotmail... you'd be removing a choice from the playing field, and people might switch over to gmail they don't like whatever interface MS gives them. If MS was smart, they'd keep all the Yahoo branding and make it at least look like there is a choice.

spin city (5, Funny)

Speare (84249) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038605)

Steve: Hey, PR flack, the Hotmail group has been hemorrhaging users ever since I sugges... er, those idiots decided to "update" that user interface. How can we make that sound like a good thing?

PR Flack: Easy, Mr. Ballmer. Voi la

More than 20 million users provided feedback to the new-look Hotmail...

From the article (0, Flamebait)

john83 (923470) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038607)

"However, at some point, everyone will be unilaterally migrated over to Windows Live Hotmail, she said."

Nice.

Re:From the article (2, Insightful)

pilgrim23 (716938) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038873)

I currently have some 8 or so email addresses. One of these is Hotmail. One is Yahoo, I also use Eudora, Outlook, and Macintosh Mail. Oh, and Pine and elm on two systems. To me interface is just eye candy. I DON'T CARE what Hollyweird scandal, or flashing ad for a airline ticket/ car/ toothpaste/, is displayed next to some email that is an advert for Nigerian investments (that is as valid as the ads/articles) -which is what 90% of my Hotmail contains..
I also do not try to juggle my life via some online calendar that can crash/die and leave me all a twitter where I am suposed to be at 10:00.

Mail is mail. you toss the junk mail, you read the interesting stuff, grimace at the bills, and rememeber you need to send that birthday card to Mom.
Online is no different then the paper kind. Hotmail's change of interface is like when the Electric company changed to smaller envelopes (and didn't bother to adjust their sorting machines). Better eye candy means more annoyance, Big Deal, Somehow, in spite of it, I supose I can still delete the spam. Thanks Microsoft for all the improvements.

Re:From the article (5, Informative)

liquidpele (663430) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038997)

I always thought mail was mail too, until I used gmail.
Gmail's grouping/tabbing of related emails makes my life so much easier I honestly get angry when I use other email clients now. I'm really amazed other sites/clients have not implemented that yet.

Re:From the article (4, Funny)

macraig (621737) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039779)

"...at some point, everyone will be unilaterally migrated over to Windows Live Hotmail"

What? How dare they! When did Google and Yahoo give 'em permission to do that?

Kudos to MS (2, Interesting)

EraseEraseMe (167638) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038627)

Despite the long development time (and I've been using the new Hotmail for as long as it's been tested), it definitely is an improvement. Outlook itself is a fantastic e-mail client, and moving Hotmail to that kind of look and feel is definitely a bonus. I wouldn't mind being able to customize it a bit more but in terms of just being able to access my email in a quick and easy fashion, it's definitely ranking quite high in my books.

Dragging and dropping emails
Quick Preview of Emails
Equaling Google's mail storage

It's like there's a party in my mailbox and everyone's invited!

Re:Kudos to MS (5, Funny)

cHALiTO (101461) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038757)

It's like there's a party in my mailbox and everyone's invited!


Okay.. how much did they pay you for this?

Re:Kudos to MS (2, Funny)

EraseEraseMe (167638) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039231)

Even the opportunity to use such a fantastic product is payment enough! Hell, I should be paying them for some of these innovative and web-definitive systems.

Re:Kudos to MS (0)

xtracto (837672) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039209)

It's like there's a party in my mailbox and everyone's invited!

Does that means that everybody is cumming? into your hot mail?

Re:Kudos to MS (1)

EraseEraseMe (167638) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039283)

Judging from the best-in-class Phishing and Spam Filter, I wouldn't be able to tell, as everything remotely interesting gets immediately sent to the Junk Mail filter, which then requires me to drag and drop them all back to the folder structure I had to meticulously create in order to categorize said important information.

Re:Kudos to MS (1)

macraig (621737) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039737)

"...it's definitely ranking quite high in my books."

What, you have more than one ledger? That ringing in your ears might be the IRS and SEC calling.

People still use hotmail? (4, Insightful)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038685)

I havent seen a hotmail account in ages. They seem more rare then aol.com emails. The bulk of emails I have seen are either yahoo.com or gmail.com.

Re:People still use hotmail? (1)

Itninja (937614) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038869)

I do use it, but only as a junk mail collection bin. When I register for something that I am pretty sure will generate spam for me, I give them my hotmail account. I check it about once a month and look for any legitimate email; and delete the rest.

Re:People still use hotmail? (1)

treeves (963993) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040141)

I get more spam in my Gmail account than in my Hotmail account. Of course, it's neatly stored in a spam folder so I can delete it en masse without selecting as opposed to picking it out, then deleting it en masse in Hotmail.

Re:People still use hotmail? (1)

chthon (580889) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040099)

Likewise. The only hotmail accounts I see are from spammers and phishers.

Re:People still use hotmail? (1)

11_biznatch_11 (875790) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040171)

To each his/her own. I hardly ever see gmail accounts, occasionally a yahoo account, never an aol account, but most often I see/get email from hotmail accounts. I signed up for gmail soon after it came out and before I had even sent an e-mail I was getting dozens of spam a week, so I dropped that like a hot potatoe. I get maybe 1 spam a week that makes it through the hotmail filters to my inbox, 5-10 per week in my junk mail folder. And this despite the fact that i've been using the same hotmail e-mail address for over 6 years.

Re:People still use hotmail? (1)

jb.hl.com (782137) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040213)

Maybe it's just the crowd you hang with/get emails from. Certainly, the non-techie users I see around here are mostly using Hotmail, and if not that then Yahoo. GMail doesn't even come into the equation.

pocket msn (3, Insightful)

BewireNomali (618969) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038699)

i was part of the beta. seamless integration with windows mobile is the killer feature for me. i've had my motorola Q for about 8 months and i've needed to log into pocket msn twice (because I switched from original battery to extended life). mail is pushed to my phone and I get IMs etc. - as well as Live Search/Maps etc out of the box. I can honestly say that - having both a gmail account and live hotmail account - that gmail is down way more - which - coupled with the fact that I do most of my emailing and IMing from my mobile unit - have caused me to migrate back to being a dual user from being a gmail user exclusively for a while. i can imagine some of gmails problems are because of scale - so it'll be interesting to see how hotmail reacts when the service is sufficiently wide to test infrastructure.

Re:pocket msn (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19039531)

never have i tried to sign into gmail to find it was down. And I use the thing religiously for work and personal use.

whats ur point??????? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19039961)

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Foremski/?p=89

http://hyperculture.typepad.com/sarah/2007/01/gmai l_down.html

http://digg.com/software/Gmail_Down_12

http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/gmaildown

http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com/2007/03/gmail-down. html

That's using Google to search for gmail+down. Found WAY MORE on other search engines. Gmail is down all the time dood.

Please have normal CSS support..... (0)

moore.dustin (942289) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038709)

.... please have normal CSS support, please have normal CSS support, please have norm --

Shit, I woke up and Microsoft still owned Hotmail... Oh well... here's to pipe dreams friends!

Re:Please have normal CSS support..... (1)

Brad_sk (919670) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039529)

You just need some reason to bash MS...Ever wondered why anything non MS (except few exceptions like Apache or Firefox) have less that 10% of market share even after so much of years?

Re:Please have normal CSS support..... (1)

moore.dustin (942289) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039587)

Idiot. The subject at hand is Hotmail, which is Microsoft, but does not have anything close to a 90% market share. I have to develop emails for a ton of different clients (HTML/CSS) and if they do something stupid is will make my life, or someone's under me, miserable.

...and for the record, I do not need a reason to bash MS, they readily provide reasons that I can pick and choose from at will. I choose this one because it relates to my work.

Hotmail is Awesome (3, Interesting)

milsoRgen (1016505) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038723)

This is just more Hotmail Awesomeness IMO, I remember a few weeks ago the account I use for important communications was brought done due to inactivity, they somehow didn't notice I log into Windows Messenger every day... But the icing on the cake was when I logged into an account I rarely if ever use (it's primarily for junk mail, web registrations, etc) was working fine. Hadn't logged into that account in months and it was all there. My main account however lost all archived e-mails and contacts. Awesome. I use gmail now. Don't much care for it's interface, but it's by far more responsive then the new hotmail.

Re:Hotmail is Awesome (1)

peragrin (659227) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038927)

Use your gmail address for MSN Live messanger service. That way people can reach you from either service via IM's.

Now if only someone would come up with a universal client that allows voice and video.

Re:Hotmail is Awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19039681)

Hm? MSN Live Messenger supports XMPP federated servers?

Microsoft's internal spam (4, Funny)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038753)

the new interface, which was designed to look like Microsoft's Outlook e-mail and calendaring desktop application
Do these desktop application have the microsoft useless celebrity gossip as the main page when you load them?

I'd LOVE it if I could be taken to my gorram emails when I log in, rather than to their fluff pseudo journalism hackfest until I find and click the 'inbox' button.
Gawds, it's annoying enough to be taken there when you log out, but when you log in? Urge to kill... rising.

Re:Microsoft's internal spam (1)

john83 (923470) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038961)

Do these desktop application have the microsoft useless celebrity gossip as the main page when you load them?
Is it possible to stay logged in and bookmark the inbox?

But is it Exchange based? (3, Interesting)

dzelenka (630044) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038765)

I read the article (really) and it never says what servers are being used behind the curtain. They were embarrassed when they could not put Hotmail on Exchange when it was originally acquired. This would be a grand showcase for the scalability of Exchange. Why isn't it being shouted from the rooftops? Are they waiting to see if it _does_ scale?

Re:But is it Exchange based? (1)

giorgiofr (887762) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038853)

Hotmail runs on BSD. I thought everybody knew it.

Re:But is it Exchange based? (1)

dzelenka (630044) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040025)

Everyone knows the old Hotmail ran on BSD. I was wondering about the new Hotmail.

Re:But is it Exchange based? (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040369)

No, in a move to eat it's own dogfood, MS moved hotmail to Win2K about a year after they bought it. Like all migrations, it was not without issues. Some users still complain that hotmail is not as responsive as it once was. I don't about the past but these days I use hotmail for certain functions (it used to be required to get a MSN Messenger account). There's a considerable lag just to read messages.

How is this news? (2, Interesting)

arhar (773548) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038843)

First of all, how is this news? I did this about a year ago.

Now, I've been a hotmail user since early 1997. I switched to Gmail when it came out, but kept my Hotmail account for sentimental purposes. A few months back though, I finally completely gave up on it.

20 million feedbacks? Ha! Most likely, they haven't read any of it - and certainly haven't read mine. I wrote them about the maddening lack of 'Check all' function, and the fact that when you start checking emails one by one, if you miss by a few pixels - it will select that one email, and lose all your other selections.

This pretty much makes Live Hotmail completely unusable to anyone who needs to delete a bunch of spam emails (and with Hotmail, you get a LOT of spam.)

At least it sounded good in theory - Gmail is still far behind Outlook, imho. And when somebody makes GOOD web-based Outlook, I'll be sold.

Re:How is this news? (2, Interesting)

frogstar_robot (926792) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038943)

What's really cute is that they arbitarily decide certain domains harbor spammers when they do not. Hotmail accounts can not be reliably mailed to from our workplace. If a Hotmail user emails one of us then we can reply but we cannot cold send mail to Hotmail. I tried to resolve it with Hotmail and the only solution they offered me was to let a whitelist provider they use to crawl around our network then we'd have to pay them to get on the whitelist. Then MAYBE we could send to Hotmail inboxes again. I simply advised our staff not to rely on Hotmail and I explain "this is Microsoft's fault" whenever Hotmail issues come up.

Re:How is this news? (1)

Zonk (troll) (1026140) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039061)

At least it sounded good in theory - Gmail is still far behind Outlook, imho. And when somebody makes GOOD web-based Outlook, I'll be sold.
Scalix [scalix.com]. It rocks.

Re:How is this news? (2, Informative)

RingDev (879105) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039125)

"I wrote them about the maddening lack of 'Check all' function, and the fact that when you start checking emails one by one, if you miss by a few pixels - it will select that one email, and lose all your other selections."

Uh, there is and always has been a 'check all' button. it's right at the top of the mail list. It does clear your check-selections IF you click on the line for the email, but not the check box as it loads that email into the preview pane. Does it do that if you don't have the preview pane up?

"This pretty much makes Live Hotmail completely unusable to anyone who needs to delete a bunch of spam emails (and with Hotmail, you get a LOT of spam.)"

I would hardly call a minor bug when you miss-click a "completely unusable" issue. Also, I have no idea what YOU are doing to get so much spam, but it isn't MS's fault. I get maybe 3-8 spams a week on my hotmail account, and they all get stuck straight in the 7-day auto-delete junk mail folder. I don't have to delete them, I just let them sit in there and they delete themselves.

I'm not sure if I like the new interface or not, but it's still a good free email service.

-Rick

'certainly' didn't read your feedback? (1)

choseph (1024971) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039331)

Why have they certainly not read your feedback? I see a Check-all box right there at the top of the mail-summary column. Did you even look at the release before you said they didn't fix any of the problems you gave feedback for?

I've seen the new Hotmail.. (1)

zyl0x (987342) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038907)

..in action, and I've got to say, I have no idea what technologies they're using, but the thing is horrendously slow. It's ugly, cluttered with unnecessary buttons, and needlessly flashy. IMHO, quite the opposite of GMail, which has been doing a fantastic job thus far.

"POP" goes the weasels (1)

BigBadBus (653823) | more than 6 years ago | (#19038957)

....and for an extra fee, you can get POP access.... ..or use gmail, where its free. Aw shucks ;)

I'll take the third option, Bill (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19039067)

By closing my Hotmail account. Hotmail has been garbage for the past 3+ years anyway.. I only kept it to collect what friends from the past might be sending, or any account where I didn't yet update..

Yahoo had it before (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#19039087)

Yahoo Mail had me test a new interface some time ago (a year ago maybe), and it looked like Outlook. If you do like how Microsoft Outlook behaves, good for you. I for one, and surely some others, just hate using Outlook for personal stuff. The Google interface is simpler to use. At work I need all the fancy-hidden-features of Outlook, but for personal messages, the easy-going Google interface is a great relief.

My Brief Review (3, Informative)

ubuwalker31 (1009137) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039161)

Looks slick and professional on first glance. No ads. Nice color scheme. Mail isn't automatically saved to the sent mail folder. Attaching a file to an email requires two clicks, one to browse for the attachment, and one to upload it. The interface seems fast. I tried using the gmail hotkeys, like f, c, and it didn't work. bummer. Only 2 gigs of storage space. Overall rating: 78/100

RIP Outlook Express (1)

b0s0z0ku (752509) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039321)

apparently, Windows Live Desktop Mail is supposed to replace OE in XP and Windows Mail is supposed to do the same in Vista. But can it do newsgroups? :) And will the replacement automatically migrate the OE data to the new client, or will people wake up with a new, empty mail client after running Windows Update?

-b.

Re:RIP Outlook Express (1)

Dude McDude (938516) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039717)

But can it do newsgroups? :)
Yes.

 

And will the replacement automatically migrate the OE data to the new client
More than likely.

Re:RIP Outlook Express (1)

Constantine XVI (880691) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040263)

From what I've seen/heard, Windows Mail/Windows Live Desktop Mail is just a slight cleanup and rebranding of Outlook Express to go with the Windows rebranding of everything in Vista. (Windows Internet Explorer, Windows Addres Book, Windows DVD Maker, etc.)

Here's what I got: (2, Funny)

pedestrian crossing (802349) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039375)

Sorry, but it looks like you won't be able to participate in Windows Live Hotmail at this time.

This might be because:

Your account is with one of our partners and has additional features that Windows Live Hotmail doesn't support yet

Windows Live Hotmail isn't available in your area at this time

You have a parentally controlled account

Your Windows Live ID indicates you're under 13

Did they change their 'delete everything policy'? (1)

jcampbelly (885881) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039379)

I lost years of e-mails on Hotmail due to a pretty assinine policy of theirs. I have a passport account, which uses my hotmail credentials, to log into our Microsoft Partner account. I spent months in and out of there reading docs and downloading patches, thinking the whole time that I was "logging in" to hotmail. One day I went to check my mail and all of it was gone, due to inactivity during that period. I called microsoft about it and they said that basically they couldn't do anything for me, there were no archives of e-mail. Unless they've done away with this policy, nobody should use this service.

Nothing to see here, move along (1)

InsaneProcessor (869563) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039541)

I still have all hotmail addresses sent to my spam folder and deleted. If it is from a hotmail account, I don't want it.

Still no Seamonkey support (1)

Little_Professor (971208) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039559)

Their silly browser sniffing blocks out Seamonkey users, dumping us with "Live Mail Lite." But if you spoof the UA to read Firefox, it works fine. I've tried raising this with the Hotmail team and the Seamonkey devs, to no avail.

Hotmail Vs. Gmail (4, Interesting)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#19039669)

Okay, I don't have a hotmail account, although I do have a Gmail one. So how do the two stack up? From reading comments here and looking at public sources I see:

  • Gmail - disk space of 2.6G versus 2G
  • Hotmail - attachment size, Hotmail claims to allow 10M attachments as the maximum, whereas Gmail claims 10M for the attachment and message combined. (Can anyone confirm the marketing is true?)
  • Gmail - Free POP support
  • Tie - I know Gmail has no ads and someone is claiming Hotmail has removed them now too for the free accounts. Can anyone confirm this?
  • Gmail - Spam, last I heard Gmail was winning the spam battle without the high false positive rate that has been plaguing Hotmail.
  • ? - interface. Any interface designers with a clue taken a look at both of these?
  • Gmail - prestige. We interviewed a person with a Gmail address the other day and someone commented that she probably has a clue in technology. At an old job someone made the opposite comment with regard to an applicant with a Hotmail address.
  • Gmail - cross platform support. Gmail works the same way with Safari and Opera, while Hotmail degrades to the old interface in them.
  • Gmail - language support. Gmail claims to support 41 unique languages (not variants) versus Hotmail's 31.
  • ? address book import/export - Gmail supports CSV import and export. Hotmail is unknown?

Does anyone have any other comparative features or info or corrections for the above list?

Re:Hotmail Vs. Gmail (1)

cybereal (621599) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040069)

Mostly I agree, but there are a few things you've missed or mistakened...

Gmail - disk space of 2.6G versus 2G

I currently show 2,849MB of space. It goes up all the time. It's not a static limit. This is important to note because over time hotmail will remain at 2G and google mail will soon reach 3 gigs.

Gmail - cross platform support. Gmail works the same way with Safari and Opera, while Hotmail degrades to the old interface in them.

While this is certainly close to true, it's not entirely accurate. GMail works very similarly across browsers, furthermore, not all features are supported on Safari or Opera, et al. The built-in google talk client does not work on Safari, for example.

Tie - I know Gmail has no ads and someone is claiming Hotmail has removed them now too for the free accounts. Can anyone confirm this?

This is definitely not true, at least on the gmail front. I haven't used HoTMaiL in a long time. But I can attest to gmail, and let me tell you, there are definitely ads. They are context sensitive text ads that use the contents of your email to choose which ads to show. They show up on the right side in a column next to the email you are currently viewing.

I can't imagine anything HoTMaiL does will ever draw me back to their service. I've used a number of email providers over the years and nothing has ever come close to the mass spam attraction that HoTMaiL sustains. And the kind of vendor lock-in they provide just isn't attractive at this point in the history of the internet. Yahoo! has provided a more interesting interface with arguably better usability than gmail, but still it won't draw me in. I won't pay Yahoo! to get rid of 8cm*cm ads when gmail will give me the same features for free. and only some minor text ads to support it. Besides, anymore I'm just forwarding my gmail mail to an IMAP server :)

Re:Hotmail Vs. Gmail (1)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040301)

While this is certainly close to true, it's not entirely accurate. GMail works very similarly across browsers, furthermore, not all features are supported on Safari or Opera, et al. The built-in google talk client does not work on Safari, for example.

I was talking about the e-mail features only. I believe the MSN chat function on the MS client is broken in alternative browsers as well. Are there ant GMail features that don't work (as opposed to integration with other Google services)?

Here is the revised list;

  • Gmail - disk space of 2.6+G versus 2G
  • Hotmail - attachment size, Hotmail claims to allow 10M attachments as the maximum, whereas Gmail claims 10M for the attachment and message combined. (Can anyone confirm the marketing is true?)
  • Gmail - Free POP support
  • Tie - I know Gmail has no graphic ads and some text ads and someone is claiming Hotmail has removed graphic ads now too for the free accounts. Can anyone confirm this or provide feedback on the number of ads and the manner they are shown?
  • Gmail - Spam, last I heard Gmail was winning the spam battle without the high false positive rate that has been plaguing Hotmail.
  • ? - interface. Any interface designers with a clue taken a look at both of these?
  • Gmail - prestige. We interviewed a person with a Gmail address the other day and someone commented that she probably has a clue in technology. At an old job someone made the opposite comment with regard to an applicant with a Hotmail address.
  • Gmail - cross platform support. The e-mail functions of Gmail works the same way with Safari and Opera, while Hotmail degrades to the old interface in them. Gmail's supported browser list is much more extensive.
  • Gmail - language support. Gmail claims to support 41 unique languages (not variants) versus Hotmail's 31.
  • ? address book import/export - Gmail supports CSV import and export. Hotmail is unknown?

Re:Hotmail Vs. Gmail (2, Informative)

Constantine XVI (880691) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040333)

On the ads, Gmail certainly does have ads, they're just cleverly hidden in the news ticker and the side of your mails. I know they exist, but I don't see them unless I look for them.
I'd definitley say Gmail wins out on the interface if WinLive Hotmail is anything like Outlook Web Access. Gmail has a nice clean design, but OWA definitley feels as if they tried to shove a desktop app into a web browser, with little success.

Sounds a bit pornographic don't you think? (1)

iceOlate (1094287) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040007)

Live Hotmail sounds a lot like Live Hot Male... Hmm... If I didn't see it in type, I'd think it was some webcam pr0n site...

Pretty slick! (1)

lpangelrob (714473) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040189)

Looks pretty slick after 5 seconds of using it. My hotmail account is at least 5 years old by now, and some things have changed. For starters, the "Silver" theme looks better when used on a Mac...

Where's the POP? (1)

FalleStar (847778) | more than 6 years ago | (#19040409)

After implementing all these changes to try to match Gmail they somehow overlooked POP? That's why I'll stick w/ Gmail as my primary service & keep my Hotmail around only for signing up for services which are likely to send a bunch of unwanted spam.
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