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Microsoft Selling J++; Discontinuing Development

Hemos posted more than 14 years ago | from the end-of-java-support dept.

Microsoft 420

renaissance59 was the first to write to us with the news that Microsoft has decided to discontinue development of J++, and has signed a deal with Rational Software for them to develop J++. Interesting move, because Rational is not bound under the legal restrictions that Microsoft is when it comes to Java. I'll be keeping a close eye on what's to come.

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420 comments

Pigs Ear > Silk Purse? (1)

stx23 (14942) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486587)

one can only hope rational can make something good out of this, Visual J++ bites, the only nice part of it is the same ide as interdev. Shame interdev sucks compared to notepad tho'.

I'll believe they've sold J++ (3)

jd (1658) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486588)

When Rational go a year without Microsoft buying them up. I'm not paranoid, but I'm not going to trust Microsoft's motives just like that. It would not be unbelievable for Microsoft to turn them into a subsiduary, to try and rake in the profts, whilst bypassing the legal problems.

the end-of-java-support dept.? (1)

BadERA (107121) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486589)

maybe this should be in the beginning-of-java-support dept?

java ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486590)

How did M$ get into the java business anyway? Sun created it, and sudden M$ has this HUGE java development division, what is that about?

Re:I'll believe they've sold J++ (1)

Bobzibub (20561) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486591)

Ummmm.. They already bought Rational.
-B

Good Riddance (2)

Carnage4Life (106069) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486592)

I used emacs to write by Java apps but sometimes wish I could have Intellisense technology as well. Intellisense is the auto-dropdown list that shows the attributes and services of an object. I know AnyJ also does this but J++ had the most developed version I've seen.

Maybe now I can write Swing apps in their fully developed environment. Can't wait.

Bad Command Or File Name

Why bother? (2)

pongo000 (97357) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486593)

As usual, M$ has chosen to ignore the real issue: Their insistence on adding M$-dependent "extensions" to their Java implementation is the very reason why they are in their current jam with Sun. Moving development to a third-party vendor won't solve the problem. Sun will just go after the third-party vendor, as well it should. M$ attempts to trash every standard that comes along which doesn't include M$'s vision of the world according to M$. It's not very smart, business-wise, for Rational to get caught up in this.

Rose generates "standard" Java (1)

Epeeist (2682) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486594)

Rational produce a nice OOA/D package which uses the Unified Modeling Language. It will generate C, C++, Java (and possibly Ada). The generated Java is standard (if slightly behind the times).

XML as an RPC? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486595)

The article said that XML was going to be used to allow windows components to communicate. Is this at all sane in the XML context? Or is this going to create an M$-XML encrypted binary unix/linux embrace and extender type of standard?

rational... (1)

dmeiz (9373) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486596)

i know there are some big names at rational (i.e., the three amigos), but some of the rational software didn't have the quality i expected. it "worked" but some little bugs turned into big bugs the longer i used it (of course, there may be patches or newer versions out). i only hope they put more effort into a robust j++.

Bizzare MS attempt to kill Java? (3)

kmcardle (24757) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486597)

Is it possible that MS is just trying to kill Java by ignoring it? We don't support it, so no one will use it?

It almost seems these days MS is trying to cut down and refocus and re-become the fast young lean company it was. I think the DOJ really wants to help them do that. This could just be a preemptive strike by MS to break the company up on its own terms rather than have the DOJ do it. Look what we did! Sold off business. You _don't_ need to split us up.



--

Sounds good (2)

BoneFlower (107640) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486598)

This sounds good, if Rational is given Microsofts "freedom to innovate". With it being developed by another company, perhaps it will become more universal. Perhaps even ported. I wonder also, does microsoft have an ulterior motive? I don't believe that they always have an ulterior motive(beyond standard business) but something like this, only a couple of months after they were declared a monopoly, with the possibility of a breakup looming, maybe they want to try to see, on a small scale, how it might affect them in the short term. Lastly, the article wasn't terribly informative. What are the terms of the deal? I don't care about amounts of money, but amount of microsoft/rational cooperation, and whether and how the deal could be reversed, those are all important details for judging this event.

Incompatibilities even with 100% pure code (2)

Zigg (64962) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486599)

I used VJ++ a couple years ago (versions 1.1 and 6, I think, were the versions I tried; the former downloaded from MS's site) because I had become familiar with using the MS dev tools. However, I had to turn around and recompile all my code with Sun's compiler because the code generated by the MS compiler would crash non-MS JVM's. This was simple code, too -- all JDK1.0-compliant and pure. Didn't even try to detect platforms or anything.

In any event, I'm glad to see J++ starting to fade into obscurity. It really wasn't a very useful product.

Maybe we'll get a usable and stable Java dev tool? (1)

Malc (1751) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486600)

I personally think that the J++ development tool wasn't too bad. It was unfortunate that it used the M$ implementation of Java: I might have considered using it if I could have cross-platform and CORBA development with it. Instead I was forced to use (very slowly) "crash-a-minute-we're-more-bloated-than-any-M$-pro duct" JBuilder with VisiBroken. I hope that Rational can take a good IDE and produce a decent Java development tool (hopefully not as flaky as Rational Rose too). I'm a bit dubious about the motives, I wonder what the *real* deal involves?

Huh? (2)

pb (1020) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486601)

Microsoft has always tried to be in the language business, no matter how much they suck at it. So I, for one, don't know what they're doing here. Java is definitely the language of the future. Everyone is trying to use it on the Web and decide what to do with it (they changed the introductory CS classes at my school to use it, just recently, but what do I care, the upper level classes use C because it works :) and I can't believe that Microsoft wouldn't want to profit from that. I doubt they're admitting defeat, so either they have some other arrangement with this company, or they'll be releasing something new, and hopefully better.

The article seems to imply that they're competing by using XML as some kind of glue language, to work with COM and other stuff. But that isn't the same thing at all. Of course, Microsoft is trying to subvert open standards, but this is a separate example, and will not help them with the popularity of Java. I guess I'll have to wait and see what they release...

Of course, in a couple of years, we might not be on the x86 anymore, toto. And if any of these proposed future chips execute Java bytecodes at hardware-lookin' speeds, watch out, Microsoft! :)

(Insert Beowulf, Transmeta, Java/XML/C-- comment here :)
---
pb Reply or e-mail rather than vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11] .

Everyone has been expecting this for a long time (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486602)

I was at a MS technet briefing in 1998 when during the question and answer session, a developer asked about the future of J++, because his managers wouldn't let them use it, because they didn't believe MS would keep supporting it. The MS rep said that they were fully committed to it, but no one believed them. Then, this year there were the rumors about COOL. So, not unexpected, but annoying for us who have to use COM and liked JAVA

It's in the licence (1)

shlong (121504) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486603)

Regardless of who owns J++, they still have to keep within Sun's guidelines to call it Java. The Java licence doesn't pick on Microsoft; everyone has to play by the rules. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing J++ wither away.

Re:Pigs Ear > Silk Purse? (1)

SteveX (5640) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486604)

Have you actually used it?

I've used a couple of different Java development environments; as long as you're careful to tell Visual J++ not to do anything Microsoft-specific, it generates good, compatible Java code, and it does it quickly. The debugger is nice, too.

It'd be a shame to see it die; fortunately Rational is a good company and I think they have a lot at stake when it comes to Java and EJB and making things interoperate at the component level, so I have some hope.

- Steve

Good news, but not that great (1)

Enoch Root (57473) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486605)

If I understand correctly, Rational is already owned by Microsoft, so they're just pushing development of J++ to a subsidiary that won't be bound by legal concerns (as is pointed in the introduction to the article.)

So: as a programmer, my question is, what's in it for me? How will this transaction make J++ a better development tool?

I guess the answer is, it won't make it that much better (or less worse, as you may see it; I personally like J++ for it's, ah, userfriendliness.) It will still be a Microsoft-marketed product.

But the thing is, it won't be developped too close to Microsoft's heart. It means the development kit won't be built so much with other Microsoft tools in mind (like Visual Basic or Visual C++.) That means the product may become more intuitive and less restrained by impossible constraints. Like, for instance, the layout of the buttons and menus. You can recognise a Microsoft product by the way they try to make it into an Office lookalike, although the Office layout never made sense in the first place.

Well, that's a slim hope. I guess J++ will stay more or less the same... And when you can code in vi, it's not like the buttons layout matters that much, anyway.

first post (1)

periscope (20296) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486606)

M$ trying to get around legal restrictions again! oh well, give them credit for trying (over and over again).

Re:Good Riddance (1)

thatdelphiguy (118215) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486607)

JBuilder has something called CodeInsight that works very much like intellisense. It's the same core technology as used in Delphi so it's pretty reliable and is very quick.

What do we know about Rational? (5)

Denor (89982) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486608)

Rational is not bound under the legal restrictions that Microsoft is when it comes to Java.
I read this paragraph, and it only vaguely disturbed me. I don't think Rational would do anything even vaguely Microsoftesque, but I had to ask myself: what do I know about Rational?

Things I know about Rational:
  • They make Rational Rose, a UML design tool.
  • One of the guys who works there (owns it?) invented/helped make UML
  • They've got an interest in tools for Java (the non-trial version of Rational Rose can be configured for Java instead of C++)
  • I've never heard of Rational trying to subvert or destroy other, smaller companies. I could be wrong here, as I'm just stating from my own failing recollection. But I think the fact that UML itself is a compendum of earlier models (authorized by the people that made them, IIRC), rather than an 'embrace and extend' helps with this impression.
Looks interesting enough, so I asked the next question: What do I know about Microsoft?

Things I know about Microsoft:
  • Come on, that's too easy.
My point here is, are we dealing with a question of the devil we know versus the devil we don't, or will Rational's track record continue its trend and leave Java alone?

Re:Not a troll - Thanks to MS for breaking Java (2)

pb (1020) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486609)

Explain thyself, Coward.

I don't like Java either, but what do you mean, it isn't portable?

I think its performance bites too, but I'm comparing it to C. Compared to Python, Java looks like a speed freak.

And object-orientation has been the trend in language design, at least officially, for a while. It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's been really proven yet. I've used it to my advantage before, but it doesn't really do anything that can't be done without an object-oriented language.

Your post made a lot of sense until I read your "preemptive return-volley", so consider just posting the message next time. :)
---
pb Reply or e-mail rather than vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11] .

Re:Bizzare MS attempt to kill Java? (2)

sammy baby (14909) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486610)

Is it possible that MS is just trying to kill Java by ignoring it? We don't support it, so no one will use it?

Not necessarily. Sun jumped on MS [itweb.co.za] for changing Java to move it away from the standard and towards a proprietary, Windows-Only version, but that particular ball has momentum. I'd lay money that there are dozens of companies that would love to take that business from Microsoft, just so long as they can be assured that MS won't step on them. Rational would be free to continue developing a non-compliant product, and MS would get to dodge the lawsuit bullet: sounds like a win-win to me.

Oh yeah - except for those of us actually concerned with platform portability. Oops.

Re:java ? (1)

Qybix (103935) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486611)

Actually, this is a very simple question to answer: like html before it, M$ wanted to make sure that what was developed for these middlewares would not work the same on windows as for other os's. Doing this to html and java would mean that the "applications barrier to entry" would remain intact. You could not write html for explorer that would work with netscape and reverse and you can't write java that will work for windows that will work for unix, mac, or os/2. It's called monopolistic force and people are still blindly following them. Only a complete fool uses Front Page expecting to be editing html, and only a complete fool uses J++ expecting to be editing java. Microsoft saw their grip on inovationlessness slipping and had to FUD html and java up. They succedded.

This could be great.. (3)

Rombuu (22914) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486612)

J++ has a great IDE (three cheers for intellisense, or intellicomplete or whatever the hell its called), so combining that with tight integration with Rational Rose and you could design your classes with Rose, have automatic generation of all your stub code dumped straight into your IDE, and then have really nice documentation generated for you quickly in just a few steps.

I hope they have a license for the MS implementation of javac, as it blows away most of the other implementations on an x86 platform.

Intellisense (3)

jabber (13196) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486613)

JBuilder also does this.
And, though I've not tried them, I believe that Cafe, Visual Age and the free and open NetBeans does too... That, the visual UI developer, and you don't have to succumb to the dark side...

Did anyone else notice this? (2)

karb (66692) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486614)

XML will allow software written to Microsoft's Com object model to interact with non-Windows objects. In essence, Microsoft is replacing the DCOM RPC messaging technology with an XML/HTTP technology that allows for remote method invocation.

It nearly sounds like Microsoft is moving from a semi-proprietary technology to a non-proprietary technology. Maybe the millenium will be the end of the world. I probably just misunderstood something.

Re:XML as an RPC? (1)

Rasmus (740) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486615)

Have a look here:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/xml/general/S OAP_V09.asp

That should shed some light on what they mean by XML-RPC over HTTP. If you ask me, this sort of firewall-prevention "standard" is bogus, but nobody is likely to ask me...

-Rasmus

Re:werd (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486616)

wow dewd you are 1337 i want to be like you and get every fourth post in every article.

Please teach me.

Legal issues (1)

Cironian (9526) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486617)

I dont think avoiding the legal issues of customizing Java through this would be a primary motivation, as after all Sun can just go after Rational then if they think R. are violating the Java licenses. Or am I missing something there?

Almost-polluted Java, standards/protocols, etc. (2)

Gurlia (110988) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486618)

Obviously MS isn't going to endorse the write-once-run-anywhere philosophy of Java. But why did they pick it up in the first place? Riding Java hype, perhaps? Anyway, I think this incident is a good sign. MS embraced Java, extended it, and almost got to the exterminate stage... good thing Sun fought up to it and stopped their nonsense. One more protocol not polluted by MS.

Now, if only this would happen more often, for more protocols/standards. Monstrosities as IE-specific HTML, or even Netscape-specific HTML is just... grotesque. Remember the original, unpolluted HTML? I remember learning it back then... there was this emphasis on using logical markups rather than physical -- ie., use tags that express the structure of the contents, rather than express the physical appearance. Well, look at HTML now: almost every bit of "logical structure" is gone from the tags, just about everything is used to control formatting. And recently there some people expressed a desire for web content to be more content-based than visual-based. Well, HTML was supposed to have provided that context, but it was polluted.

What we need are universal protocols and standards, but variety of implementations. MS got it twisted the wrong way -- they make their own incompatible protocol extension, non-universally accepted, and locks it onto their implementation. Then they turn around and say, "wouldn't it be better if everyone just used one OS, one implementation, and our version of the protocol?" I have nothing against MS doing Java. If they stuck to the same standard. But I do have something against MS when they pollute the standard and use that to lock in the consumer market.

(And of course, the above applies not just to MS but anyone else.)

Re: Sounds good (2)

SteveX (5640) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486619)

One problem with this is that the Visual J++ package is probably 10% Java-related stuff and 90% extras that are common to the Developer Studio family.

The IDE is the DevStudio IDE. Does Rational get that? Do they get updates to it? Or is Visual J++ going to simply stay where it is now with some extra Rational hooks for Rose integration Rose while the IDE get moldy...

(I know IDEs are a religious issue and most people reading Slashdot probably prefer Emacs or vi, but as for me, I like the DevStudio IDE).

- Steve

Microsoft helped raise the Java bar (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486620)

Give me a break. Microsoft helped validate Java 100 times more than Sun ever could alone. In fact, their browser's JIT still has the fastest Java implementation of any browser - bar none. Give Microsoft some much deserved credit for a change instead of bellowing blind Sun Micro rhetoric.

Re:Not a troll - Thanks to MS for breaking Java (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486621)

They saved the web from becoming dominated by, and depending on, a closed langauge.

And then they replaced it with ActiveX Controls...oh wait, shit...

Re:Good Riddance (1)

Bobzibub (20561) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486622)

In J++ auto-dropdown can be a real pest. You type "class.

....but your view of all the code around it is blocked by a big window. Also, on bigger projects, the system freezes (PIII@400/w128M!) for a few seconds while it digs up all the methods. Avoid typing periods. ; )

Anyone know how to change the font size in J++? If the font of the window was smaller it would be cool too.

At school, we're making a simple search engine..IE to scrounge web pages (No not Java calls, using COM is a course requirement) and Access for the db.
The PCs were donated by "Microsoft Research", so we *nixers were thrust upon the COM/OLE world. Interesting to see what its like 'tho.

Cheers,

B.

How long before Java-less IE? (2)

realcold (121507) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486623)

I wonder how long it will take before MS removes support for Java applets in IE...

Re:Why bother? (3)

gburgyan (28359) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486624)

There's actually some very good reasons to have some extensions.

In a previous project, we had to take a client/server Java program that we had and put it on the web (no, I didn't develop the original). With the MS extensions, Java and COM and almost interchangeable. This prooved to be a great boon since we had some ASP guys on the team and we could interface the backend server to IIS through COM. The whole thing worked without a hitch.

Keep in mind that this program interfaced with some real legacy systems (10-20 years old on a mainframe) and went through many hundreds of hours of testing with hundreds of small programs that deal with the data that we produced. Rewriting from scratch simply wasn't an option.

Being religous about an issue isn't always the best thing. When you have a project thrown at you with a 2-month deadline, you have to figure out the quickest way that doesn't suck and has a good probability of working the way you want it.

Remember folks, additional options are almost always a good thing.

More info on MS's XML/HTTP strategy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486625)

Could someone tell me where I can find more info about the XML/HTTP strategy they referred to in the article? Are they referring to Soap? I work at a company where we have a middle-tier application which uses its own proprietary way of serializing-deserializing objects and passes them around with home-spun sockets. I've been arguing to move to XML/HTTP since I got here (there are reasons why CORBA won't work as well). Anyhow, even though we don't use MS, being able to point to some standard -- even if it is MS claiming a standard -- may help convince a PHB or two. Thanks. - Scott (sorry not logged in)

Kind of expected. (1)

Sterling (10651) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486626)

Not really suprising. With the injunction against Microsoft from extending Java, and the lack of popularity in J++, it isn't suprising that Microsoft is dropping J++.

Now that Microsoft can't really extend the Java language like MS likes to do with all technologies not developed by MS, just drop J++. You see, they can't fight within Java anymore (by creating MS specific extensions that require Windows), so now they plan on fighting Java directly, with XML as the "lingua franca" of the web, as hinted in the article.
But now, I don't really see how the use of XML will help Microsoft's war on Java. Java and XML can and should be complementary languages. Unless they "innovate" and extend XML to the point you couldn't use Java to parse XML. But thats silly since XML is text based.

We will see how far Rational will go in continuing development of J++, with heavy competition from Sun, Inprise, and IBM.

Well I'm pretty sure J++ won't be missed that much, to Microsoft and everyone else.

Man

Re:Pigs Ear > Silk Purse? (1)

stx23 (14942) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486627)

Yup, I had to endure it to make my way through someone else's code recently, I don't think having to download 68Mb of patches before I could use it is endearing. IMHO, I found both Visual Cafe and Visual Age for Java hugely preferable.
I do agree that it would be nice to see it turned into something useful, but I am rather jaded, and somehow, I doubt I'm alone in that. The issue seems to be that it won't feature in Visual Studio 7 (ETA 4Q 2000), so what does that leave?
VC++
VB
FoxPro
Visual Modeller (Which is rose compatible)
Interdev (which might actually be good by then)
and their new challenger, was it called COOL?
I don't think I could seriously use a program called Visual Cool...

Re:Did anyone else notice this? (1)

SteveX (5640) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486628)

I read an article somewhere on the SOAP technology (which is basically RPC using XML) and how there was a bit of a battle within Microsoft as to whether or not to use it... because it really does open things up. And in the end, they ended up supporting it.

Kinda surprising, but a good thing. Means you'll be able to use DCOM objects from Linux and vice versa fairly easily.

Re:Huh? (1)

Evangelion (2145) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486629)

(they changed the introductory CS classes at my school to use it, just recently, but what do I care, the upper level classes use C because it works :)

Several universities have done this because of deals with Sun. I know at the local University [www.uwo.ca] , they have Sun boxes and the putrid JavaStations everywhere, and have started teaching Java in first year.

Actually quite a good move by Sun - make the CS Graduates of the future at least somewhat familiar with thier language, to try and reinforce thier ubiquity.

Re:Pigs Ear > Silk Purse? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486630)

Visual J++ is very nice, nice ide, fantastic debugger and it's significantly faster than anything else.
If you want to write portable code in it, just don't do anything Windows specific or use it's extensions.
If you want to write a Windows app that has access to almost everything, but in Java, then this tool rocks.
I hope Rational do it justice, they could also develop it further and even it up a bit I suppose (less biased towards using Windows extensions)...

Re:I'll believe they've sold J++ (1)

EasyTarget (43516) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486631)

You said:
> Ummmm.. They already bought Rational.

Ummmm, no they didn't..

I should know, I work for them, this is also a disclaimer.

Re:Good Riddance (1)

Thrakkerzog (7580) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486632)

in MSVC++ 6.0, I would do something like the following:


SomeClass .methodName(...);
or
SomeClassPtr ->methodName(...);


Then I would go back (alt left arrow does it quickly) and remove the space, just to avoid having to wait while it digs up the method names. I eventually turned it off, and just invoked it with alt-space or something when I wanted it. (It actually is a pretty nice feature to have.. those of you who say that you should remember your method names have not worked on projects with many many many methods. You can't remember them all.)


Re:What do we know about Rational? (2)

asad (65703) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486633)

They also make great java optimizing tools like quantify and purify. I haven't actually used them but I had to install them on one of our unix servers. From what the developer told me you can measure how much each routine and system call takes and how much memory it uses. Great if you are trying to find memeory leaks. Althought the software costs a few thousand $ not something you could just buy for personal use.

Re:How long before Java-less IE? (1)

SteveX (5640) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486634)

I think it's already not selected in the "typical" download of IE. If not the "typical" setting, then the "small" setting has it off by default - I know one of them was, and I'm surprised that there's been no mention of it.

Re:Good news, but not that great (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486635)

If I understand correctly, Rational is already owned by Microsoft, *BUZZ* No try again thanks for playing

Re:Bizzare MS attempt to kill Java? (3)

Capt Dan (70955) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486636)

(Before I go into this, I use XEmacs (win32 port at work) and love the command line)

There is an ever increasing number of businesses that depend on java for their e-business/enterprise applications. As computer speeds increase, and the core java tech gets better, the old standby argument of "Java is slow" is moot.

My point is, in my opinion, there is no way that microsoft can kill Java anymore. Java is here to stay. If mocrosoft is really dumping java, there will be a rush by other companies to fill the void with tools and software, so that they can get a slice of the java $$ pie.

Maybe java does not fit in with Microsoft's core technologies road map, or if you're paranoid you might say that they realized that they "lost" and are jumping on XML becuase it's the next great thing. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion.

Microsoft has always been about COM and DCOM (which really aren't that bad, except for the whole cross-platform thing). According to the article, apparently XML gives them the ability to execute COM objects remotely. The objects themselves may not be cross-platform, but the interface to them is or will be. Everyone benefits.

(Hopefully this means I won't hear anyone complaining about microsofts java changes. I agree that it was a bad thing for them to do, but the story was getting old after the 4th year of hearing it...)

"Insightful"? Hardly. (2)

the red pen (3138) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486637)

Python and Perl have prospered as Java's corporate handlers have duked it out in court.

In a word: no. Most new commercial web sites are going either with Microsoft Technology (NT/IIS/ASP) or Java (from Sun, Microsoft, IBM or open sources such as Japhar). Even Perl booster O'Reilly is junking their Perl-based website. Cite a fact or two.

Java isn't portable, its performance bites, and its strict adherence to object-orientation demonstrates an obvious misunderstanding of trends in language design.

This isn't a troll? Oh come on! Java is portable, it's performance doesn't bite and even Perl has jumped on the OO bandwagon. "Design Patterns" by Booch is the hottest CS book out now.

This is such a Troll I can't believe it was moderated up. Slashdot is really starting to suck.

More evidence buying Microsoft is a bad move (3)

DragonHawk (21256) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486638)

I cannot understand why anyone would buy into Microsoft's development tools and technologies. They have shown time and time again that they cannot design a technology that will stand the test of time, and they will happily scrap anything that doesn't suit their business strategy, no matter how many developers it leaves out in the cold.

With every release of Windows, Microsoft scraps the old APIs and introduces new ones. The new ones don't solve many problems but are gratuitously incompatible with everything else.

ActiveX on the web was going to be the wave of the future. A bunch of people bought into that. Now, ActiveX on the web is an embarrassment to MS, to the point where they have changed the name just to help people forget about it. I hope you didn't stake your future on ActiveX.

DCOM was going to be the future of MS Windows IPC, but this article mentions that MS is depreciating DCOM in favor of some XML/HTTP based system. And DCOM hasn't even been fully realized yet!

And "Visual J++" was Microsoft's solution to Java. "Get all the benefits of Java with all the power of Windows", they said. Anyone who bought into that and staked their future on WFC and all that Windows-only Java are now going to find themselves at the unemployment office.

I could go on and on. Microsoft continually demonstrates they are quite happy to give their customers -- end-users and developers alike -- the shaft. My only question is, why do people continue to not only accept this, but yell, "Thank you Sir, can I have another?"

Re:Not a troll - Thanks to MS for breaking Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486639)

It's performance does suck, again I'm comparing it to C. But it's performance is ON PAR with Python. I use both and like both, for different reasons, and rely on the fact that I'm well reasoned enough to select the best for a particular project. The only reason I use Java though is for Web Applets, why anyone would want to use it for anything else is beyond me!

Not the first time Microsoft has done this (1)

BigWorm (103915) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486640)

Microsoft sold Visual Test to Rational a few years ago. I'm only vaguely familiar with the product, so I'm not sure what effect it had on its popularity.

Re:rational... (1)

Plugh (27537) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486641)

#define rant 1

ClearCase *used* to be a great product.. Rational bought it, and it's stagnated BIG TIME over the past 3 years.

Remember Clear Track? KILLED by Rational software.
Clear Guide? KILLED by Rational software.
Pure DDTS? Same thing. KILLED by Rational software.

Rational is A *?&^ Microsoft wannabe. They innovate NOTHING, they merely SWALLOW great products and turn them into uninspired MUSH.

The difference is only that Rational has had a somewhat more discerning palate, and have generally swallowed better products than M$ has.

Thanks, I feel better now.

Re:Not a troll - Thanks to MS for breaking Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486642)

I don't like Java either, but what do you mean, it isn't portable?

Sun only support first-tier ports of the JDK to Solaris and (grudgingly) win32. Why won't they port to linux? FreeBSD? I'll tell you why - they aren't interested in seeing the language shine on these platforms.

Java exists to bolster Sun's dying "end-to-end" support model (hardware, OS, and now a language!).

Perl and python have far more cross-platform support - larry and guido don't have an OS axe to grind.

And object-orientation has been the trend in language design, at least officially, for a while.

Of what decade? Most recent work has demonstrated the efficacy of coupling a system language (C/C++) with a scripting language (perl, python, tcl). You'll notice that this is how a lot of linux/bsd people get real work done.

Object-orientation is the most oversold programmign technology in the last twenty years.

I've used it to my advantage before

Neither have most other people. In fact, most people just create a bigger hairball mess by trying to create whiz-bang object hierarchies. OO may be many things, but it is not a productivity enhancing technology.

Re:Huh? (1)

lgordon (103004) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486643)

A little off the mark. Java is a language and development system that has it's own unique place. Microsoft does not make an ADA95 compiler. ADA95 is useful also. Microsoft has decided that Java is no longer a forward looking language, and they were as caught up in the hype as everyone else was. Oh, and BTW, I'm a C++ zealot :)

But is that Danish Delphi guy still at Microsoft? (1)

Jacco de Leeuw (4646) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486644)

I remember Microsoft "recruiting" the Danish guy from Borland who came up with Delphi. He was going to work on Visual J++. Any status on that yet?

Re:Not a troll - Thanks to MS for breaking Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486645)

>Java isn't portable

So the cross platform support is merely a figment of my imagination as I run applets/applications on any platform with a JVM ? (oh yeah, doesn't perl require the binaries etc to be available on the target platform ?)

>its strict adherence to object-orientation demonstrates an obvious misunderstanding of trends in language design.

This is a troll, right ? It has to be. Speaking with my Hardware Description language hat on, the EDA community appears to be trying to get an Object Orientated varaint of VHDL up and running ASAP, a clear counter example...

Trends in language design? (3)

Rexifer (81021) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486646)

and its strict adherence to object-orientation demonstrates an obvious misunderstanding of trends in language design


Excuse me, but isn't most modern design theory highly object oriented?? I've never seen a design patterns book use procedural languages, not would it make sense to. The gang of four book uses C++ and Smalltalk, but not Perl or C. Any architecture books that I've seen in the past decade and a half focuses on OOP, be it Smalltalk, C++, or what not.


Scripting and procedural programming have their place, too. It's a matter of choosing the right tool for the right job.

Sheesh...

Re:Not a troll - Thanks to MS for breaking Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486647)

>>its strict adherence to object-orientation

What strict adherence? Dont know if you have used the language but there is no truth in your argument. How does java restrict you from writing non-oop code?

Bye bye J++?? (1)

feargal (99776) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486648)

To me I would suspect that MS have realised that they screwed up with J++, ever since they decided to ignore the whole 'any platform' idea.

Selling the rights to a competitor makes them look good, especially in the anti-trust spotlight. It wouldn't surprise me if they drop support for it, and relace it with something of their own.

Then, when J++ becomes defunct, they can say 'Hey, we gave them a fair chance, we can't help it if people preferred our products...'

I dunno, but I expect a platform independent realise from them to compete with Java. They couldn't seriously do so with J++, so they dumped it.

Or so I think...

-Feargal Reilly.
"A goldfish was his muse, eternally amused"

The Second thing you said. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486649)

see subject.

Rational is not owned by MS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486650)

Rational is not owned by Microsoft.

Re:Almost-polluted Java, standards/protocols, etc. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486651)

The reasons are spelled in the Findings of Fact from the monopoly trial. Just load up the findings and search for "Java". The emails make it very clear Microsoft's only reason for licensing Java was to make sure it didn't succeed as a product.

The way they planned to do that was first to attract people to MS's J++ by making a fast JVM. Once they had people on their platform, they intended to break cross platform capabilities by amending the language so programs written with J++ wouldn't run anywhere else, and by making the J++ default GUI builder use Microsoft specific classes that had windows code built in so it wouldn't port.

While the lawyers claimed they were "improving" Java, the emails make it quite clear the only reason they were in the Java business was to break it, and they specifically planned on using the "improving" cover story to cover their actions. As a matter of fact found by the court, it is quite clear that Microsoft plans to ruin other companies by a specific campaign of lies and deceipt tightly controlled by high level management, purposely entering in contracts intending to break them and then fight it out in court.

Poppycock! (1)

jthm (31469) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486652)

First of all the article calls Rational software a "tools rival." Hhmmm.... I wonder how you can be a rival and a be in a strategic alliance at the same time? This allaince was started back in 1996 and renewed July of this year.

My take: They have a vested in interest in Microsoft surviving its probelms intact. Rational's website tauts MS as a "powerhouse" in the industry and refers to this as a "Good Thing" TM. Rational Software will be able to develop J++ along the same lines as Microsoft but w/o all the "restarints." Back to square one Sun.

Check for yourself:
Proof [rational.com]

Corporate intrigue...

bummer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486653)

I for one am a little freaked out...

1. i see a lot of complaints about j++ sucking. I have used many ides for java, and J++ is by far my favorite. I wonder how many complainers have used it, and how many are letting the proprietary extended java issues (which truly do suck) and microsoft hatred (for valid reasons, for sure) color their perceptions...

I do web development, and for the last few years, unfortunately it always seems to be on IIS using SQL server. I nearly exclusively these days use J++ / COM to build all my business objects. J++ is the only game in town to do java + com. I would rather shoot myself in the head than use VB or C++ at this point.

Interdev is a fine product also, IMHO. All the visual studio apps are so integrated, i wonder if that will continue. I hope that rational takes over the development, but somehow moves forward in lockstep with visual studio...

I have also invested quite a bit of effort in building tools to help my development, which I really do not want to have to throw away.

The real Java-killer (1)

udin (30514) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486654)

I think that Microsoft has essentially decided that their main thrust in the distributed web application space (which is how they now view where Java is competing with them) is going to be SOAP -- XML-based RPC, that is.

In other words, Microsoft couldn't corrupt the platform-independent application space, so they'll ignore it and instead try to dominate (by being there first, for now; later they'll no doubt try the embrace-and-extend ploy) internet distributed applications by setting and backing some new standards. Visual Studio 7 will do the whole visual builder/wizard/etc. tools for building a distributed app using SOAP as the glue.

Microsoft has another variation on the embrace-and-extend strategy going on in the XML and SOAP space: propose a standard, implement the proposal and deliver it in products BEFORE W3C and/or IETF is finished with it, and then take their time bringing their software up to the standard so as to sow confusion as to just what is the standard and whether to go with the real standard or Microsoft's pre-standard proposal version or what. The goal, of course, is to make the Microsoft version the de facto standard at the same time they can claim to support open standards. Nifty, huh?

Re:Bizzare MS attempt to kill Java? (1)

Sterling (10651) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486655)

You could tell MS was losing interest in Java. Microsoft's JVM and J++ used to be one of the fastest Java implemenations. And then the Sun lawsuit happened. The performance has dropped so that its performance can be labeled as average at best.

I doubt this was an attempt convince the DOJ. Even Microsoft is not stupid enough to believe that the DOJ would fall for this kind of tactic. Are they?

Man

Re:Good Riddance (1)

Malc (1751) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486656)

It's anything but fast and reliable.

I've often seen it produce a whole list of methods that don't exist in a particular class or base classes or interfaces.

You must have a monster machine because my 450 w/ 128Mb is slow. I try and type something as quickly as possible after a "." so that it doesn't freeze up. It even does it if I type a "." in a comment: freezes up and then it decides to do nothing! VC++ demonstrates how to do it well, it's fast even on large projects, and much less intrusive. It also doesn't screw around by doing things such a inserting ");" and moving my cursor. Thank goodness I can still use Emacs for my editting when I'm using JBuilder!

Re:It's in the licence (1)

McKing (1017) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486657)

That's why the product is called J++, the name _can't_ have the word "java" in it at all because it doesn't follow the Sun standard. The IDE produces code that looks suspiciously like java (and can run in MS's JVM). If you _carefully_ read their ad-speak, the only place it mentions "real java" (as opposed to their bastard version) is where it says it can produce "Pure Java" code that will run cross-platform. A _very_ fine point of distinction, and some lawyers and ad-men got paid a lot of money for figuring out how to sell the product, implying that it is a true Java IDE, without getting sued (they got sued anyway, but that was for the JVM, not the IDE).

M$ is pushing for XML instead of Java (1)

Raphael (18701) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486658)

As the article says, the next version of M$ Visual Studio will rely heavily on XML and will probably forget about Java.

At first, I didn't think much about this. But now I have bad feelings about M$ using XML. Sure, XML [w3.org] is a nice standard and I like many of its applications. But XML is only a markup language; this is not a real programming language. You can use standards such as the Document Object Model DOM [w3.org] (not to be confused with M$'s proprietary COM) to describe in XML (or in an XML derivative) how some actions should be performed on a document, but this is a limited kind of programming.

So if a programmer wants to get something powerful out of XML, the best solution is to define a XML-based markup language that allows you to embed calls to some system-specific components into your documents. And then you can say: "Look at this great set of applications that I just released! They are all based on XML, which is an open standard." That's nice, except that the XML derivative used by these applications is nothing but a glue around some proprietary components that will not work on any other system.

I don't know what M$ is planning when they are focusing on XML and dropping Java. But it could very well be that they use an open standard as a cover for producing more non-portable stuff that will run on nothing else but Windows (because their XML derivative will require Active X, DCOM, and so on). At least with Java, there was some hope to have portable applications, even if M$ tried to lock the developers into Windows-specific Java extensions...

Re:Not a troll - Thanks to MS for breaking Java (2)

gorilla (36491) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486659)

I don't like Java either, but what do you mean, it isn't portable?

I've found that the portability of Java is greatly exagerated. Taking a working Java app from an NT server to a different enviroment took several weeks. None of this was due to Microsoft, the app was written in 'pure' Java.

In addition, you have to considere the rapid pace at which Java seems to evolve. Yesterday you should be using RMI, today JINI. Java 1.0 isn't compatable with Java 1.1, which isn't compatable with Java 2. All of this in a language which was released about 4 years ago?

Re:Huh? (1)

pb (1020) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486661)

I completely agree with you, since I wrote in Turbo Pascal 7, which supports classes and whatnot, for way too long. (and there's definitely some Ada resemblance there)

However, hype never stopped Microsoft from selling a product before. To the contrary, they seem to thrive on it. Hence, why not sell people what they think they want, instead of spending time and effort to make them think they want something else?

Judging by their past history, I would much more easily believe that this is due to the rivalry between Microsoft and Sun rather than any integrity on Microsoft's part. But, I'm willing to wait a couple of years, and see if they can prove me wrong. :)
---
pb Reply or e-mail rather than vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11] .

Re:Why bother? (1)

Nyarly (104096) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486662)

Yes but there's a keyword called 'native.' Not that I'm attacking your solution, but MS approach shouldn't be to pervert Java, it should be to provide clear COM interfaces within Java.

It still bugs me the way MS changed Berkeley sockets when they implimented them in Winx

Rational Systems (2)

Ex Machina (10710) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486663)

Weren't these the guys who made DOS4GW. Ahhh the early 90's.... first person shooters....mmm

I wonder if Microsoft has any stock in Rational. Perhaps a company Microsoft, Bill or Paul Allen owns stock in is a stockholder of Rational.

Is Visual Studio going to ditch J++ ocmpletely or will it still be available either licensed to MS or as an add on?

Re:What do we know about Rational? (2)

Ralph Bearpark (2819) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486664)

They also make ClearCase - an industrial strength source control system for NT and Unix - and DDTS - defect tracking software. Both tools are used on a Big scale by very Big companies.

Regards, Ralph.

Re:Bizzare MS attempt to kill Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486665)

It was only faster because it was broken. Garbage collection? Who needs that?

Re:More evidence buying Microsoft is a bad move (2)

justin_saunders (99661) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486666)

You said:
With every release of Windows, Microsoft scraps the old APIs and introduces new ones. The new ones don't solve many problems but are gratuitously incompatible with everything else.
This is incorrect. The problem is just the opposite. Anyone who has programmed for Windows will tell you that there is so much kruft all over their API's (in order to remain compatible with Win16), the programming is an nightmare. Its Microsoft's marketing dumps technology every six months, renames it and resurrects it.
DCOM was going to be the future of MS Windows IPC, but this article mentions that MS is depreciating DCOM in favor of some XML/HTTP based system. And DCOM hasn't even been fully realized yet!
Nope. DCOM is an extension of COM which is an extension of that old technology, OLE. Microsoft is further extending it to COM+. (arrgh! Just kill it and start again). Whether it runs over RPC or HTTP is entirely separate.

For more info on COM and how it relates to ActiveX have a look here [microsoft.com]

Cheers,
Justin

Re:I'll believe they've sold J++ (1)

thetbone (111767) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486667)

ummm, I think you mean Visio don't you?

Java was awful. Long live C/C++ (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486668)

I never saw the need to create a new language to have a common platform for writing GUI apps. A new language wasn't needed for that. All that was needed was ISO/ANSI whatever STANDARD library, so you could use #include <stdgui.h> and now carry out your "write once, run anywhere" philosophy. Why did we need Java?

Re:What do we know about Rational? (3)

acroyear (5882) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486669)

One of the guys who works there (owns it?) invented/helped make UML

UML is the UNIFIED model language. It is the unification of two publically known "object methodologies", created by Booch and Rumbaugh respectively. Both ended up working at Rational, and thus, unified their approaches to create UML. Neither own Rational as a company, though i'm sure each are major shareholders.

Rational WILL be restricted to the same license that MS signed with Sun. This will NOT change Sun's belief that J++ (in its current form) is not 100% Java complient and thus is allowed to use the Java logo/brand. Rational MAY choose to change J++ to make it complient, or they may not.

My problem with Rational: Anything they haven't bought (they bought purify and clearcase) doesn't exist for non-windows platforms. There will never be a linux purify, clearcase, or rose. Therefore, one can conclude there will never be a linux j++.

For most of us, this migration of J++ changes nothing. It won't change Sun's license on the product; it won't change Sun's belief it isn't Java; and it won't change the fact that it is a Windows-only product.

Re:I'll believe they've sold J++ (1)

technos (73414) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486670)

If you don't mind answering, what exactly does Rational produce? Has there been any buzz about the aquisition of J++?

Re:Not a troll - Thanks to MS for breaking Java (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486671)

I'm confused.. How can you define Java as non-portable? Code once, run anywhere, because of the Virtual Machine architecture. You aren't compiling for a Linux/BSD/Win box, you compile for a JavaVM box. And the Linux/BSD/Win system emulates the VM.

Means a little speed hit, but not a huge one. People spouting 'Java is slooooooow' are generally those who think that that long delay when Netscape loads Java Applets is Java's fault. And what do you mean OOP isn't a trend in language design? You're just spouting gibberish.

Java isn't the perfect language. It is closed, that much is all too obvious. And were it to be opened, it would only be semi-open, under the Sun Community license.

Precedent: Microsoft Visual Fortran (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486672)

Microsoft dropped this one simply because it wasn't making enough money. Microsoft customers were encouraged to start using Digital Visual Fortran.

It could be a simple at that: a straightforwoard business decision for Microsoft.

Rational can't break Java either (1)

the red pen (3138) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486673)

Microsoft can sell Visual J++, but they can't change the licensing terms on certified Java languages.

You can make a language that does whatever you want, as long as you don't call it "Java." That's a trademark of Sun's. If Rational wants to produce something that's called "Java," they have to play by Sun's rules, just like Microsoft.

What Microsoft is doing to "break Java" is investing in Kaffe. Kaffe is a JVM, but it isn't called Java and doesn't bear and Sun certifications. If Microsoft can get to a point where would-be Java developers start using some kind of proprietary twist to Kaffe, they can screw up the Java world. Good luck to 'em.

Re:Bizzare MS attempt to kill Java? (1)

ph1l (88918) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486674)

I think it was probably just due to the phenomenal unpopularity of J++. M$ gave away tens-of-thousands of copies of J++ to anyone who would even claim to work in education, and I'm sure they wrote off every penny of the full retail value on the old tax sheet. So J++ was a moneymaker for them without them having to market it, or even sell it! Now they can just walk away from it and lose nothing in the process.

Re:What do we know about Rational? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486675)

Rational already works with Microsoft through the OMG (object modeling group).
This group consists of Microsoft, Rational, HP, Oracle, Unisys, IBM, PTech, MCI Systemhouse, plus several others.

I hope that they can make a better product than Rose 98i, it has some great capablities but is buggy and has an inconsistant interface (DEL to delete an object in one window, -D in another window, etc...).

And SOAP won't be enough, so what next... (2)

Christopher B. Brown (1267) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486676)

The "new thing," SOAP, [ietf.org] the XML-RPC thing, is quite clearly not going to be quite enough.
  • It'll not be scalable enough.

    For instance, there will need to be a "compression extension" because XML is verbose, thus making messages large.

  • It'll not be robust enough.

    Thus requiring an extension so that messaging can be managed by MTS [microsoft.com] and/or MSMQ, [microsoft.com] or WTCTNY (Whatever They Call Them Next Year).

  • It'll not integrate well enough with whatever tools they're using next year.

None of the technologies are inherently a problem:

  • SOAP doesn't seem to be massively worse than XML-RPC [xmlrpc.com] although it's probably not as good as Casbah's LDO [casbah.org] system.
  • MTS is probably not as good as Encina [transarc.com] or Tuxedo, [beasys.com] but is doubtless better than the nonexistent TP monitors not being deployed in departmental/workgroup systems
  • MSMQ may not be as good as Tuxedo, or as open as Isect, [netcom.com] and is merely derivative of IBM MQSeries, [ibm.com] but doesn't seem to be too bad, again being better than the asynchronous messaging systems nonexistent in non-big-iron systems

The implementations may be run-of-the-mill and derivative, but they're based on pretty good ideas, which is why it's been pretty easy for MSFT to market them.

What is a massive problem is that what gets deployed next year is liable to be massively incompatible with what is available this year.

In a sense, the only hope for developers that use the stuff is if there is some sort of "mass disconnect" where MSFT gets split into MSFT-1, MSFT-2, MSFT-3, ... and this results in the tools deployed having an extra year to stay vaguely stable...

more like the three big... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486677)

MOUTHS that talk and talk and talk... but the results speak for themselves. oh yeah, the names are big, real big...

Good Riddance...but what about XML? (1)

justin_saunders (99661) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486678)

No tears from me for a half-arsed, substandard and dangerously incompatible product. Yeah IntelliSense was good but I'd rather write stuff that is portable (which is the whole idea of Java in the first place).

It looks like they've given up trying to pollute, I mean "innovate" Java. What worries me is this:

Separately, Computing has been given an early preview of Visual Studio 7, which is heavily biased towards XML, formally called extensible mark-up language.
I wonder if XML will stand up to Microsoft "innovation" the way Java has?

Cheers,
Justin

Re:Not a troll - Thanks to MS for breaking Java (1)

pb (1020) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486679)

I'd rather have Sun attempt to tell me why, thanks, but don't tell me you can't find a good Java VM. There are tons of those little suckers! It would be nice if Sun really did open the source to something (especially Java) to show support for open source and more importantly open standards. But they want to control the standards, and I think that will be their downfall. Heck, we can't even handle standards for a simple, fake markup language like HTML.

Perl and Python can be ported by independent parties that show the interest to do so, instead of depending on one central company. But at least the spec for Java is open...

I agree, I tend to use C and shell script myself, and it's pretty handy. I don't really like python or tcl, and perl syntactically annoys the piss out of me, but eventually I'll either find or come up with a fast scripting language that I like, or just stick to C.

I admit that object hierarchies have to be very carefully designed. I think objects are C++ and Java's way of letting you shoot yourself in the foot, when C only had pointers for that. However, this doesn't mean that pointers and objects aren't useful. Rather, the programmer must be more careful in the "design" phase. Which doesn't happen often, if we can help it. :)
---
pb Reply or e-mail rather than vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11] .

Why MS is doing this... (0)

foodmike (90022) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486680)

Here's how I think this thing is working..
MS hears about Java and thinks "Oh no, it dosn't need Windows, it's a threat." In response they use there typical strategy of making a similar, but incompatible, product in hopes that people adopt that and are then stuck using it. In this case J++. J++ isn't as succesful as they had hoped, so what do they do? Cut there losses, sell it off, and redirect efforts. How do they do it? Well.. Java lets apps run cross platform across networks. You don't "need" Windows. So now they are focusing on a new way achieving that same goal, without Java. If they play there cards right well all soon have to be using EI just to browse the web. Ehhh.

Re:Not a troll - Thanks to MS for breaking Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486681)

How does java restrict you from writing non-oop code?

Uh, maybe everything having to be in a class might have something to do with it.

Re:I'll believe they've sold J++ (1)

Bobzibub (20561) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486682)

ummmm, I think you're right. ; )
-B

Re:"Insightful"? Hardly. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486683)

> Java is portable

Well. Yes and no. A good number of the library classes and methods have interesting platform dependant behavior.

Try this: System.out.println( "abc\0def" );

Depending on your platform, you get "abc",
"abc def", or "abcdef".

I don't want to even get into platform specific AWT behavior. I just had a four hour fight with the damned AWT... AGH.

> it's performance doesn't bite

Compared to what? Python, Perl? Sure. C? HA..

It's not just a matter of a good JIT either. In a performance C program, sometimes you write some platform specific code. For example, you might mmap a file. You certainly can't do that in Java though you might use a native method. The problem with that is pinning. It takes a *RIDICULOUSLY* long time to pin arrays (something like 15 milliseconds to pin a 16 byte array). There goes any performance gain from mmap.

It's a trade-off. It is possible, though difficult, to write fast, portable code in C. It's relatively easy to write slower, portable code in Java.

> even Perl has jumped on the OO bandwagon.

I think your missing the point. He said "strict adherance to object-orientation". You can still make unbound functions in Perl but the best you can do in Java is make static functions in some damned object (look at the Math object).

I like functions and I wish Java had a lambda function (I suppose you can use inner classes for this).

OO was hot in 1990 - get with the times folks (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486684)

Most serious language designers realize that OO is now a highly oversold technology. See articles by Ousterhout at Scriptics.com, or a recent interview with STL creator Stepanov.

Active X is coming back (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1486685)

Actually, Active X is starting to come back. I've written client side Active X into several intranets, because with IE as the standard (ie: Netsacpe being gone), Active X is a good solution for intranets. When Netscape is more gone from the public arena, we'll start to see Active X on the Web at large.

We knew this was coming long ago (3)

dingbat_hp (98241) | more than 14 years ago | (#1486686)

Microsoft aren't attempting to kill Java, they're just annoyed at Sun's legal succes. If they can't win the game, then they're going to take their marbles and go home in a sulk.

This move was expected a long time ago. Soon after the lawsuit, Project COOL made it clear that M$oft internal work was going back to C++, after an all too brief dalliance with J++.

I'm a COM developer, so I'm well pissed off. C++ is a ghastly platform for COM work (you can always do everything, but development speed grinds to a halt) and VB is well, still just VB (still my main language, in terms of billed hours, but I know its limits). VJ++ was nowhere near being Java, but it was excellent as a Windows development language for stuff that VB couldn't hack.

Rational's attempt is doomed. It's never going to compete with the PureJava fraternity (Visual Cafe is probably going to be my choice) and it no longer has the tie-in to M$oft internals that made it attractive in the first place. The whole Win32 baggage of VJ++ was the only thing attractive about it in the first place, but if that's no longer a hot track to the latest new Redmond arcana, then it's just a legacy albatross.

Oh yes, and if J++ is going to be anything like as unreliably buggy as Rational's recent products, then it can join them under my desk in the same dustbin. Their UML Modeller was a lot of money out of my budget for a product that wasn't fit to ship as beta-test $10 shareware.

XML as a coding language ? Don't make me laugh... Sounds like VNU still don't know their Arse++ from their ElbowScript

Time to re-write the CV again.
s/J++/Java/

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