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Mozilla Exec Claims Apple is Hunting OSS Browsers

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the firefox-has-always-been-the-enemy dept.

Mozilla 539

Rob writes with a link to a Computer Business Review article on the negative impact Mozilla COO John Lilly sees Apple is having on Open Source. Lilly claims that Jobs' recent discussion of Safari on Windows is an attempt to create a duopoly of browsers (IE and Safari), with Firefox and the rest on the outside looking in. "The graph 'betrays the way that Apple, so often looks at the world,' Lilly said. 'But make no mistake: this wasn't a careless presentation, or an accidental omission of all the other browsers out there, or even a crummy marketing trick,' he said. 'Lots of words describe Steve and his Stevenotes, but 'careless' and 'accidental' do not. This is, essentially, the way they're thinking about the problem, and shows the users they want to pick up.'" We discussed an analyst's opinion on this subject this past Friday.

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Um... what? (1, Insightful)

ZakuSage (874456) | more than 7 years ago | (#19566899)

Apple's introducing a superior browser to Windows, therefore they're trying to weasel out Mozilla/Firefox? If they really want the market share, make Firefox 3 worth going back to, and I, for one, will start using FF again.

Re:Um... what? (4, Funny)

aichpvee (631243) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567011)

You meant inferior, but I'll forgive you since I know you're using a mac and the keyboard has all the keys in funny places.

Re:Um... what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567033)

Apple's introducing a superior browser to Windows


[sarcasm]
What? So soon after releasing Safari for Windows they're going to release an entirely different browser?
[/sarcasm]

Re:Um... what? (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567059)

Apple's introducing a superior browser to Windows

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Re:Um... what? (1)

random0xff (1062770) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567063)

If you read the article you'll see what he's upset about:

Lilly pointed to a pie graph representing the browser market that Jobs showed at last week's Apple developers' conference in San Francisco. The graph was made up with just two browsers: Safari and Internet Explorer.
I think it's just wishful thinking, unless they bundle Safari with iTunes and automatically make it the default browser.

Re:Um... what? (3, Insightful)

Volante3192 (953645) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567473)

That'd be bloody brilliant... Introduce a whole demographic to a new browser.

As Microsoft's shown, best way to introduce a user to a new program is to force it on them...

Not about market share (5, Insightful)

bunratty (545641) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567263)

If they really want the market share, make Firefox 3 worth going back to, and I, for one, will start using FF again.

RTFA. They don't want the market share. They want to keep the web open, as stated in the Mozilla Manifesto [mozilla.org] .

Anyway, they do have the market share. Apple releasing Safari for Windows will increase consumer choice and the competition will help all browsers improve. It will also help web developers realize they can't develop for only one or two browsers, but instead should develop according to standards unless they want to turn away significant fractions of visitors. I see only good coming out of the release, regardless of what Jobs' intentions are.

Re:Not about market share (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567365)

My guess is it will help show most windows users that don't already know, that IE isn't the only browser.

Then they'll try Firefox after enough minor annoyances with Safari, and switch to that.

Re:Not about market share (3, Insightful)

omeomi (675045) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567445)

Anyway, they do have the market share.

I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm reasonably certain that there are more Firefox users on Windows than there are Apple OSX users, period. That's not meant as a slam against Apple, but I don't think Firefox has too much to worry about. I think Safari on Windows will likely be used mainly by developers looking who want to be able to test web pages on Safari without using a Mac...

Then what are they crying about? (3, Insightful)

hotsauce (514237) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567521)

RTFA. They don't want the market share. They want to keep the web open, as stated in the Mozilla Manifesto.

Safari rigorously follows the standards, helping keep the web open for all standards-based browsers. Mozilla should be thanking them.

Re:Not about market share (1)

Score Whore (32328) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567541)

Wait. Tell me again about Mozilla Foundations $40 million a year revenue. Sounds like a company to me. They should butch up and compete instead of crying that somebody is coming in to force Mozilla of the game.

Re:Um... what? (2, Interesting)

Bobartig (61456) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567275)

At the very best, Apple is introducing what is *potentially* a superior browser on Windows. It's entirely premature to claim that Windows Safari is any good yet. Safari 3 for Mac will probably win me back from Firefox, but I think Safari has an uphill battle, what with foisting a lot of Mac-like UI constructs on PC users.

Re:Um... what? (3, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567601)

Exactly. Safari 3 on Mac is the nicest browser I've used for a long time. Safari 3 on Windows seems to be making all of the UI mistakes that FireFox does on Mac. On the plus side, now WebKit works on Windows (thanks to Adobe), it's possible for someone other than Apple to make a WebKit-based browser that does conform to the Windows UI guidelines, such as they are.

Mozilla gets modded down (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567307)

Every time I point out Apple's brutally monopolistic worldview, my posts get modded down. Therefore, we should all agree that Mozilla now has zero Slashdot credibility, because they dare say something bad about Dear Lord and Master, Apple.

Down with FOSS!! Long live Apple!! Buggy and insecure applications and steeply overpriced hardware for all!!

Re:Mozilla gets modded down (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567375)

Given their relatively low numbers but high power Apple fanboys have here on Slashdot to mod down any disagreeing world view, the unavoidable conclusion is that EVERYBODY supporting Apple is a FUCKWAD.

Re:Um... what? (2, Interesting)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567337)

It seems to me that it is Safari that has the uphill battle, not Firefox. I can think of absolutely no reason to move to Safari.

Re:Um... what? (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567363)

Apple's introducing a superior browser to Windows

I have a Mac but "superior" is a matter of opinion. Apple is introducing another browser to Windows. Like Firefox and Opera, it has better standards compliance that IE. I see this as a good thing or all browsers. If Safari can take more of IE's share, it may force companies to code to standards instead of IE.

They tried this before... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19566911)

Didn't work in the 80's, won't work now. Customers, markets & data want to be free. We ignored them then and they almost went away. Same trick will work again.

The shoe is on the other foot (3, Funny)

TrIp0d (671393) | more than 7 years ago | (#19566917)

Instead of Microsoft following Apple's lead, Apple is following Microsoft. What a concept!

Re:The shoe is on the other foot (1)

Altus (1034) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567457)


yea, remember how pissed off Mac users were when Microsoft put out IE for the mac? Everyone was up in arms bitching about how all MS wanted to do was kill off cyberdog.

What, you dont remember that... humm neither do I.

Apple on Windows (4, Insightful)

gowen (141411) | more than 7 years ago | (#19566945)

Gee, I hope its as user friendly as iTunes. I simply live to see the message "You cannot use iTunes because another user is running a copy". That's user friendliness right there.

Re:Apple on Windows (2, Interesting)

Aqua OS X (458522) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567147)

When does iTunes do that?

Re:Apple on Windows (5, Funny)

lewp (95638) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567227)

Presumably when another user is running a copy.

Re:Apple on Windows (3, Informative)

gowen (141411) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567289)

On Windows XP. Log in as a user, start iTunes. Now "Switch user" without logging out, and log in again as another user. Now try and start iTunes.

Re:Apple on Windows (1)

Roofus (15591) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567349)

Indeed, and it drives me nuts. I have to share my only Windows PC with my wife. I don't mind except that I'm forever getting calls when I'm away saying "How do I kill your iTunes again?"

It's asinine that two different users cannot each run iTunes at the same time.

Re:Apple on Windows (3, Funny)

gowen (141411) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567433)

I share it with my girlfriend and what does she do? Kills my iTunes and then uses hers to play Elton John and the Moulin Rouge soundtrack.

It's a fucking travesty is what that is.

Re:Apple on Windows (5, Funny)

MyLongNickName (822545) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567499)

Then uses hers to play Elton John and the Moulin Rouge soundtrack

Damn. I knew Slashdotters were hard up for female companionship, but this is over the top. Why don't you just stick to porn and wanking like the rest of us?

Re:Apple on Windows (1)

DansnBear (586007) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567405)

In all fairness, the same thing happens on my mac. I have the Moto SLVR phone with built in itunes, I keep it plugged into my computer to keep it charged, when the os sees this, it automaticly launches for syncing. Sometimes i dont reaize this, and i use fast user switching to log in my other account, set up for Final Cut Pro. I do find it anoying that I can't run 2 instances of itunes.

Re:Apple on Windows (1)

gowen (141411) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567461)

Oh ... while we're ranting... Have you ever tried to use the mechanism they provide to change the sort field of every Tom Waits song to "Waits, Tom". Who came up with that brutal, brutal interface, Ernst Rubik?

Re:Apple on Windows (1)

neoform (551705) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567421)

Why exactly would you want to have two copies of itunes open at the same time? So you can listen to two songs simultaneously?

Seriously dude, of all the things to complain about that's a really bad example.

Re:Apple on Windows (1)

gowen (141411) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567511)

Because iTunes allows you to share your playlists over a network.
User one is logged in at the PC, playing her songs as she works.
User two is playing *his* songs over via WiFi through a laptop plugged into the hi-fi.

Re:Apple on Windows (1)

bkr1_2k (237627) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567613)

Which would have absolutely no effect on either user's experience. I do that all the time at home, and never get any error messages from iTunes. I suspect it's more likely some confusion of multiple users logged into the same machine (fast user switching or whatever) and something getting borked in the user switch.

Mozilla execs (1)

Trillan (597339) | more than 7 years ago | (#19566947)

Great, that was fun (and completely useless). Can we have one talk about the internal motivations of Microsoft next?

attitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19566949)

Lilly, who admits to spending an "embarrassing" amount of his own money on Apple products, said he was glad Safari would be another option for users.

the toughest thing about switching to apple is to tell your mom that you are gay.. but seriously, whats there to be embarrassed about in using apple prods?

However, Job's thinking was outdated, in part because the web "belonged to people and not companies."

good competition, he shouldnt have whined.. Why opera doesnt get a mention at all, but that doesnt discount the fact that it is an awesome and revolutionary browser

Re:attitude (1)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567161)

I believe the embarrassment comes from the amount he spent, not the company he spent it on.

On not being #3 (4, Insightful)

Animats (122034) | more than 7 years ago | (#19566953)

In computing, you can be successful as #2, but the #3 player usually loses out and disappears. (Remember Amiga? Commodore? DEC? Ask Jeeves?) If Apple wants their browser to have any commercial significance, they have to pass Firefox.

Re:On not being #3 (5, Informative)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567215)

Yeah, like Gateway, Opera, XBox...wait a minute...

Re:On not being #3 (1)

splict (1024037) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567345)

Not to say I disagree with you on your point, but you sure picked lousy examples.
Gateway has had all kinds of financial problems, the XBox is only still here because Microsoft is rich enough to allow it to hemorrhage money, and Opera makes a significant portion of its money from embedded systems of which I believe if it isn't first it's probably second.

Re:On not being #3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567455)

Remember Hotbot? Webcrawler?

Re:On not being #3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567253)

In computing, you can be successful as #2, but the #3 player usually loses out and disappears.

Which is why there are exactly two databases out there, two programming languages, two IDEs and two search engines (I see at least 3 major ones and not anyone of them is disappearing anytime soon).

Oversimplification are usually well, over simplified.

Re:On not being #3 (1)

Sciros (986030) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567311)

Ask Jeeves was #3? Isn't there Google, MSN Live Search, and Yahoo? Ask Jeeves was probably #23508 or something. But yes I do remember it because of that funny butler in the commercials. He was awesome and made me want a butler named Jeeves.

Re:On not being #3 (1)

drix (4602) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567429)

If the commercial did that to you, you should really read the books. Bertie's Jeeves is God, the Oracle, Vishnu, the Illuminati, Yahweh and Tom Bombadil all rolled into one.

Re:On not being #3 (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567533)

So Desktop Linux is going to go away soon.
Perhaps MySql.
BSD Should have been dead a long time ago.
I must avoid DLink routers, because they will go out of buisness any time now.

There are a lot of fields that do quite well as #3 Web Browsers can fall in the catagory if the trend of better website design continues. (Today it is a lot better then say back in 1998, But still a lot of work needs to be done)

Competition (2, Interesting)

simpl3x (238301) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567549)

I take it as more of a focus on competition, but YMMV. There are lots of browsers, and while I do wish that Safari would get kicked to the curb, how exactly is Apple supposed to work with a project that reacts to a presentation in such a manner? My opinion is that they would like to peel away some Windows/IE users, rather than peel away FF users. What's wrong with that? They sell hardware.

I use FireFox on my MacBook. I wish it were a bit more stable at times. I like WebKit. Opera was nice, but not always usable on various sites. I hear OmniWeb is nice. With FF market share increasing every day, why are they complaining about Apple?

The design considerations for the iPhone specify:
"iPhone User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/1A538a Safari/419.3"

I thought OSS was primarily interested in open standards and interoperability with OS applications? An open playing field, rather than market share...

what Apple/Jobs should do is: (1)

FudRucker (866063) | more than 7 years ago | (#19566955)

release the source code to the Safari web browser under the BSD or GPLv2 license and let the developing community contribute and improve it, it cant hurt and in most cases help...

Re:what Apple/Jobs should do is: (4, Informative)

Bootle (816136) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567013)

webkit has been open source for years. It was adobe who really did all the work getting safari to run in windows

So apple spends no time/money, opens a new source of google search bar revenue, AND gets a wider iphone "sdk"

Safari on windows was a success before Jobs announced it

Re:what Apple/Jobs should do is: (1)

Altus (1034) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567525)

It was adobe who really did all the work getting safari to run in windows

got a link for that? or any indication why adobe would have done that?

Im just curious really

Ummm...it is open source...well sorta.... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567209)

From Apple's web site:

"Safari uses open source software -- for its web page rendering engine, Safari draws on KHTML and KJS software from the KDE open source project. Being a good open source citizen, Apple shares its enhancements with the open source community"

Nothing to Worry About... (4, Insightful)

morari (1080535) | more than 7 years ago | (#19566971)

Safari is even less enticing on Windows than it is in its native environment.

Re:Nothing to Worry About... (2, Interesting)

jsdcnet (724314) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567437)

The real value of Safari on Windows is not as a web browser, but as an IDE for the iPhone.

Re:Nothing to Worry About... (1)

morari (1080535) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567543)

I don't know what kind of value I would put behind that... ;)

Pie Chart is all about marketing (3, Interesting)

MSTCrow5429 (642744) | more than 7 years ago | (#19566979)

I find it hard to believe that Apple, which from time to time is king of marketing, seriously believes that the browser battle is between just itself and IE. It's no doubt well aware FireFox is number 2, and Safari is close to last, in terms of market share. Instead, this is Apple trying to create the illusion that it really is the big dangerous new browser on the block, and create the perception of market dominance and leadership. I don't think it will work, and this is likely to make Apple look foolish in the eyes of the non-default to IE market, but that's what Apple is trying to do with these silly charts and pronouncements.

Re:Pie Chart is all about marketing (1)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567257)

Or maybe they were most concerned with taking out IE, so they didn't make a comparison to other browsers which they weren't trying to take out.

Re:Pie Chart is all about marketing (3, Insightful)

trolltalk.com (1108067) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567305)

I don't think it was even that - it was more like trying to show the relative market shares of the two browsers, without complicating the chart by introducing other elements (Opera, Firefox, IceWeasel, Konq, Lynx, Links, etc ...).

In other words, this is a tempest in a teacup.

Re:Pie Chart is all about marketing (5, Insightful)

truthsearch (249536) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567617)

That's not at all how Apple operates. You're completely ignoring their real motives. They don't care if they own the dominant web browser. They know it's basically irrelevant to their business.

What Apple sells is a particular computing experience. To have people develop web apps for the iPhone they need the browser platform it runs on: Safari. So Safari on Windows lets non-Mac users develop iPhone applications (similar to OS X's Dashboard).

Apple does not care if only developers use Safari on Windows. As long as there's a lot of iPhone apps to download. Having people browse the web with Safari on Windows does nothing for Apple's bottom line. But as a development platform it's critical to their latest product.

And this surprises who? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19566983)

I mean these are the guys who came out with the first 64 bit PC right :P

They give no credit to others as a rule.

I love my mac, but I don't expect them to acknowledge their competitors
beat them to the finish.

Garick

I have a MBP... (3, Informative)

imperio (1044250) | more than 7 years ago | (#19566985)

and installed both Firefox and Thunderbird after about a week of owning the thing. The MBP is great, but iMail & Safari are pretty weak. I don't think Mozilla has anything to worry about.

Re:I have a MBP... (2, Insightful)

Mattintosh (758112) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567537)

What the heck is "iMail"? I googled for it, but the first two or three links were either parked domains or 404's.

Perhaps you meant Mail(.app). In that case, I'd have to rate your opinion-making skills as "weak". Mail is way better than Thunderbird. It has everything T-bird has, but with polish and proper system integration. And a handy "bounce message" function that essentially tells automated spam systems to sod off. Thunderbird still has a ways to go before it's at the level of flexibility and polish of Firefox, and only then does it have a chance to be better than Mail.

Your opinion of Safari at least has merit. It would be nice to have plugins (Developer Toolbar and AdBlock are wonderful) in Safari. It's lacking in that area. But Safari (for Mac) is still a damned good browser. Safari for Windows is crap, though. (And, no, they're not the same.)

1996 called (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567577)

It wants its bounce message back. Most spam these days comes from faked, and sometimes legitimate, email addresses, so you're basically bouncing the spam back to an innocent person and possibly spamming them if the original message is included.

Re:I have a MBP... (1)

MBGMorden (803437) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567567)

Try Camino if you haven't already. I don't know what's up with Firefox, but it feels draggy on my Mac compared to my Linux and Windows machines. Camino is the same rendering engine though and absolutely flies.

As a side note, I also started using Epiphany on Linux over Firefox. It too just seems a bit more zippy (though as stated, Firefox on Linux seems faster than on a Mac). Using either does mean giving up Firefox extensions though (that being said, I don't use any extensions myself).

   

This just in... (2, Funny)

mushupork (819735) | more than 7 years ago | (#19566989)

"Public company aggressively pursues marketshare!"

Film at 11.

Film at 11? (2, Funny)

wiredog (43288) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567169)

How last century. These days it's all YouTube Video Right Now.

Comparing to the market leader (1)

norminator (784674) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567015)

Obviously, they're targeting the browser that most people are familiar with. Even with the progress that FF has made, IE still has the overwhelming percentage of the market, so that's what Apple was comparing themselves to. It would be like Creative complaining that the Zune isn't marketed as a Zen-killer.

Get over it, take close to 50% marketshare, and then you'll be in the comparison.

It's really all pretty pointless, though, because I don't think the point of Safari on Windows is really to gain marketshare, I think it's just for developing iPhone apps. But that doesn't stop the FF guys from being offended.

Apple only pays lip service to OSS (1)

The_Abortionist (930834) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567035)

It's about time people start realizing this. It's the most proprietary company on the face of the planet. More so than Microsoft, so dreaded here.

Can you run MacOS on non-apple hardware, including in a VM-Ware session? Answer: no.

But why? For the same reason MS doesnt feel like opening office formats too much. But when it's apple, the appologists, evangelists and shills invent every possible excuse under the sun.

Apple, it's for hypocrites. Thank God Apple staggers at 2% of the market share. Humanity still prevails.

T_A

ps: MacOS X is a piece of crap.

Imminent Death of FireFox Predicted. JPGs at 11. (3, Interesting)

srmalloy (263556) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567039)

Meanwhile, Abraxor has taken available data and projected [abraxor.com] that Firefox will overtake IE in August...

Re:Imminent Death of FireFox Predicted. JPGs at 11 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567163)

Yeah, a linear projection, how astute. So in 10 years, FF will have a 12,000% market share?

Re:Imminent Death of FireFox Predicted. JPGs at 11 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567287)

You have a better projection to show off then? No?

Re:Imminent Death of FireFox Predicted. JPGs at 11 (4, Informative)

Bearpaw (13080) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567267)

What that data seems to projects is that FF may overtake IE6 ... whose numbers seem to be dropping mostly because of the people switching to IE7 . IE6/7 still has a comfortable lead over FF.

Re:Imminent Death of FireFox Predicted. JPGs at 11 (1)

foobsr (693224) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567315)

This graph was generated by taking the data from the W3 Schools Stats and figures were forecast using Excel

And this is valid how?

CC.

Re:Imminent Death of FireFox Predicted. JPGs at 11 (1)

dedazo (737510) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567449)

Abraxor has taken available data

From W3C Schools, which we all know is a high-traffic mainstream web site like Yahoo or MSN.

Firefox will overtake IE in August

Yes, all those people switching to IE7 are really starting to make a dent on IE6.

FF is a fine browser and no one denies its market share is growing. There's no need for this type of stupid arm-flapping.

Re:Imminent Death of FireFox Predicted. JPGs at 11 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567501)

That's IE6. If you take the same data and plot it, you'll see that Firefox will overtake the total share of _all_ IE versions sometime december 2008. There's a clear linear trend.

Apple is Hunting OSS Browsers (3, Funny)

syntap (242090) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567125)

We're on a Safari and we're hunting OSS browsers. (slaps self) I mean we're developing Safari and HURTING OSS browsers.

Re:Apple is Hunting OSS Browsers (1)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567589)

Shhh! Be wery, wery quiet...

Hunting? (1)

FredK (140786) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567221)

"Mozilla Exec Claims Apple is Hunting OSS Browsers". Perhaps they could help Apple find one?

Unfounded (3, Informative)

TheBearBear (1103771) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567223)

From the TFA

The exec also highlighted Mozilla's attitude about market share: "We've never ever at Mozilla said that we care about Firefox market share at the expense of our more important goal: to keep the web open and a public resource,"

I don't see how Safari and IE will be causing problems. The nature of the web/internet is that it's open (except in extreme cases, of course). If Apple/MS does something nasty, the community will cry foul and move to an alternative, or make one themselves. Isn't that how mozilla got started?

Personally, I'm more worried about careless legislation and government regulation, and politicians who may still refer to the web as the Information Superhighway. yeah, I'd trust those guys to be in charge :P

Forgot to close Italics DOH! (1)

TheBearBear (1103771) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567251)

Sorry me so sorry :( quote from article ends on first paragraph.

Apple doesn't need to say anything (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567241)

The communist open-sores browsers such as Firefux is doing it already with terrible memory management and stability problems that causes the piece of shit to crash every other hour. Naturally the fucktarded communist open-sores loving fucktards will fucking stick up for firefux since it is communist open-sores since they are a bunch of fucktarded commies anyways. All fucktarded communist open-sores loving fucktards should go earn themselves a darwin award by finding a razor, running a hot bath, and slitting their fucking wrists.

GO AHEAD FUCKING FLAME AWAY OR WASTE YOUR GODDAMNED MOD POINTS FUCKTARDED SHITDOT SHEEPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pedantry is fun (2, Funny)

jb.hl.com (782137) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567569)

All fucktarded communist open-sores loving fucktards should go earn themselves a darwin award by finding a razor, running a hot bath, and slitting their fucking wrists.

Technically that wouldn't be a Darwin Award, as they hadn't done anything particularly stupid to get themselves killed, they'd explicitly set out to kill themselves.

(Sorry.)

(No, really... sorry.)

I misread the title as Apple HURTING OSS Browsers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567247)

Given the buggy release of the Windows port of Safari, that would not surprise me.

Who gives a shit? (4, Insightful)

beavis88 (25983) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567269)

If Safari turns out to be better than Firefox, they deserve to take their marketshare. If not, well, Apple deserves to see this fall flat on its face. But I guess "OMG teh evils corporashuns!!11!" is likely to attract more readers...

I'm willing to bet (1)

Aqua_boy17 (962670) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567303)

Lots of words describe Steve and his Stevenotes, but 'careless' and 'accidental' do not.
I'll bet after reading that he got into his SteveCar, drove to the nearest SteveBar, and ordered a SteveScotchAndSoda. I mean, wtf? Doesn't this sound kinda childish and whiny?

Re:I'm willing to bet (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567413)

I'll bet after reading that he got into his SteveCar, drove to the nearest SteveBar, and ordered a SteveScotchAndSoda. I mean, wtf? Doesn't this sound kinda childish and whiny?
And a handy SteveFuckOff to you too!

Bah! (4, Insightful)

Moby Cock (771358) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567309)

This is all a tempest in a teapot. Safari on Windows is not going to harm OSS browsers any more than Opera does. There is no reason to think that Safari is going to displace Firefox (or Konqueror or whatever). The users of those apps use them because they had a choice and found a product they liked.

Remember: more competition is always a good thing.

By the way, Safari isn't even the best browser on OS X (that honour goes to Camino) so I really can't see how it will have much impact on Windows.

Well this should be fun (2, Insightful)

dedazo (737510) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567319)

I'm certainly going to enjoy seeing the Firefox "it's the extensions!" and Apple "It looks fine, what's your problem!?" fanboys duke it out.

If the Linux and Microsoft fanboys want to join me in the Asbestos Lounge, the popcorn and beer are on me.

Job's still trying to run the world? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19567343)

|...Jobs' recent discussion of Safari on Windows is an attempt to create a duopoly of browsers (IE and Safari), with Firefox and the rest on the outside looking in. ...|

I aint going to buy an Apple Machine just to run Safari. Job's reminds me of a used (i)phone salesman.

Free has a price all its own.

The deadliest game! (1)

Altus (1034) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567387)


Shhhh... be werry werry quiet... im hunting bwowsers

It's the simplicity, stupid! (5, Insightful)

Protonk (599901) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567393)

Apple (Read Jobs and handlers) left out lynx, Opera, FF, tinybrowser, etc out of the presentation because the end result would have looked much more visually confusing that they wanted, IMO.

TFS/TFA make a critical logical error. They state that nothing Jobs does in these presentations is accidental, because we all know how meticulously planned they are. Therefore, if nothing is accidental, then the omission must be a sign of Apple's malevolence toward open source. QED!

Bullshit. The graph doesn't necessarily 'betray the way Apple looks at the world', it betrays they way apple wants the shareholders, newspapermen and fans to look at the world. Their ongoing conceit (diff than deceit) has always (From the late 90's on) been, we are competing against this giant monopoly, here we are, the valiant underdogs. True or not, this is the image (RDF) that has been provided. Apple's recent success may cause people to forget this, to assume that the marketing message is different now. An assumtpion like that would have to come butressed with facts, not shoddy logic.

Does this mean that Apples wants to make nie with open source, or acknowledge the contributions of open source, etc? Of course not. But that doesn't mean that a graph is really a coded browser battle plan to get rid of FF. Apple would be perfectly happy competing for a plurality in browser market share, especially if it meant that users would/could be intimately familiar w/ the iphone interface out of the gate.

Negative? (4, Insightful)

greg_barton (5551) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567397)

Using BSD as the basis for OSX basically gave FOSS credibility in the consumer market.

It's like a decade of free positive publicity.

Mozilla can take the competition. If it can't it shouldn't be in the game.

Are we supposed to feel bad for Mozilla? (5, Insightful)

ZombieRoboNinja (905329) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567401)

Are they honestly crying in public because a competitor wants to... compete with them?

Firefox has managed to get a 25% marketshare against Microsoft, on their own OS. Hell, I'm typing this from Firefox on a Mac right now, because I like the addons. If Safari is trying to "edge out" Firefox, they just need to make sure Firefox is a significantly better browser. If it's not, well, you can hardly blame Apple for making a better product.

Firefox (1)

techstar25 (556988) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567419)

Anybody who think Jobs is aiming for Firefox users is just paranoid. Clearly Apple has the ability to advertise, and to push (as a download option with iTunes) Safari, more than Mozilla can with Firefox. But there are plenty of IE users to go around, and when compared side by side with IE, Safari will win out. However, no users of Firefox are going to switch. At worst, Firefox's growth might be slowed, but the people who switch from IE to Safari weren't going to try an open source browser anyway. We're talking about people who think that little blue E on their desktop is "the web".

Wake Up and Smell the Capitalism (2, Interesting)

stephenmowry (1117519) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567465)

Dear Mozilla Personnel,

I hate to inform you of this, but you are in the capital marketplace, not the communist bloc. Around here, the best (price/features/etc) product wins. Why would you worry about an Apple presentation that fails to mention you? Maybe you should spend your time doing some other things, like... hmmm... maybe....

1. Reducing the memory footprint
2. Speeding up page rendering (#1 reason I don't use FF). For me speed is king, then memory, then UI, then at the bottom of the list "plugins" and "openness".

Um (4, Insightful)

jb.hl.com (782137) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567493)

Apple is gunning for open source software...and he bases this on a pie chart?

Apple's main target by releasing Safari on Windows is Internet Explorer; they want to basically get newbies who have tried iTunes or have iPods and liked it, and might be willing to try other Apple stuff. They aren't going after Firefox users, so a comparison of Safari v IE v Firefox makes no sense. Hell, why not include Opera as well, and OmniWeb, and Lynx! It'll be one confusing motherfucker of a pie chart, but by god Norwegians, both the people using OmniWeb and text-mode fetishists need representation too!

To me, this smacks of "Yoo hoo! Over here! Firefox still exists! Yes! Wooooo! Give us publicity too!". And he's somehow extrapolated a simple omission from a pie chart into a hatred of open source software in general. Very nice.

(Not that I think Safari for Windows is there yet, it's nice but not wonderful. I still use Firefox if I'm use Windows, but prefer Safari under OSX.)

They are going somewhere else (4, Insightful)

TrippTDF (513419) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567495)

I don't think Apple's interested in the browser market as it exists, I think they are interested in having cross-platform "client" to run a new generation of web-based content that they will release over the next few years- things like a Safari-based Word Processor, or perhaps photo editor- a remote connection client so you can always get to your Mac. I think Apple wants / need certain features to make this work, and it's easier all around if they use their browser rather than IE or FF. Watch Safari turn into a client for Safari apps, not a new entrant into the browser war. They want it cross-platform so PC users will also be able to take advantage of it, possibly selling more Macs in the process.

Sorry, didn't know FireFox was ONLY competing w/IE (4, Insightful)

King_TJ (85913) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567531)

IMHO, this is ridiculous! Safari gets released for Windows, and the Mozilla team immediately has an outcry against it?

The more competition, the better, I say! May the best man win, and all that. I didn't realize Firefox was being strictly worked on as a project with a goal of defeating IE, and no other players were ever supposed to "interfere" with that mission!?

This isn't even a scenario that's real comparable to iTunes - despite that getting thrown around as a comparison. With iTunes, Apple was releasing it as a vehicle to sell music on their store. In that regard, the whole thing was a commercial venture - and it simply made sense to allow the vast number of Windows users a "front end" to be able to purchase Apple's music, instead of keeping it just for the 5-7% of the marketplace that uses Macs.

With Safari, on the other hand, it may become useful or required as a development tool aiding in building apps for the iPhone ... but that won't directly add to Apple's bottom line. They aren't likely to make anything SELLING Safari for Windows either - so it's more or less going to remain a freebie you can opt to use or not use, as you see fit.

who cares? (3, Insightful)

nanosquid (1074949) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567551)

Actually, I think Safari was a bad decision for Apple but a good decision for everybody else. The easy solution for Apple would have been to put Gecko inside a Cocoa app, which would have given them much more compatibility with Web 2.0 sites. By struggling to establish a third standard, they are actually helping everybody else. And if they manage to establish Safari as the #2 browser on the web, all the better: FOSS will simply take the Safari rendering engine (which is open source) and wrap it in a Gtk+ UI.

Ow, my head hurts! (1)

mattgreen (701203) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567565)

I'm really struggling with this one. Why would they put an article like this on the front page? You're pitting two of the Absolute Goods against each other, and I'm really not equipped to handle the sort of critical thinking it requires. I'm not sure what to think here, could you help me along? Next thing you'll tell me is that Google has some employees that run Windows!

It's called competition. (3, Insightful)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567575)

Considering the slide Firefox has been in in my personal satisfaction index, I find myself not giving a damn that they're afraid of a little competition.

I use OSS because I like the way it works. If it doesn't work well enough, I use something else. Firefox isn't going to stay my browser of choice if there is something out there that does the job better.

Now I'm not really fond of Safari, but if it runs fast, loads fast, doesn't hog system memory, I'm going to start using it. End of fricking story.

Safari based on LGPL Webkit/Webcore/KHTML (1)

GodWasAnAlien (206300) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567585)

Apple says: "Being a good open source citizen, Apple shares its enhancements with the open source community",

which should read: "As required by license, Apple publishes its open source enhancements".

The only "firefox killer" would likely be a Open source Webkit/Webcore based browser that is lighter and faster than firefox. This "safire" browser could also be a likely Safari killer.

The Geek Came First (2, Insightful)

moore.dustin (942289) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567599)

Honestly, Firefox is supported by the geek movement towards superior and sometimes, open source solutions. Geeks are geeks before they are Apple fanboys in most cases, so I see them supporting their geek roots over brand loyalty. I would content that Apple users are much more prone to installing and running Firefox than a Windows user is. I do not have the numbers, or if anyone does, but I bet the % of Apple users running FF is higher than the % of Windows users running it.

Geeks spawned the Firefox movement and they will support it as long as it is the best.

What about google and FF (0, Troll)

ducomputergeek (595742) | more than 7 years ago | (#19567609)

I generally use Safari on Mac for most of my websurfing, but sites with invision board and a couple others don't render correctly. Plus if I want to do anything with google documents or pages or any number of their other services, I had to download Firefox. I argue that this is vendor lock in no different than MS or Apple. It may be Free and Opensource, two key buzzwords, but it's still vendor lock in.

With the options of Opera, FF, Safari all out there on various platforms, that's a good thing. There for a while it was shaping up to be a one horse race. So my response is suck it up and produce the better browser that people will want to use.

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