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The Roadmap to Leopard?

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the includes-stops-for-dennys dept.

OS X 152

Alexandros Roussos writes with a link to the site MacScoop, which claims to have obtained a roadmap for the months leading up to Leopard's release. It's a straightforward article, stating how much access individuals outside the company will have access to the product prior to October. "Major build on early August - In a little more than a month, Apple's development team targets a feature-full build. The build that was provided to developers during the World Wide Developers Conference earlier this month is actually not totally feature frozen. Some minor features are currently being finished for the system. These features will arrive in the August build along with user-interface improvements, sources told MacScoop. If you expect major 'wow' features or interface changes, you will be disappointed. What we may expect is additional settings and [some] user interface polish[ing]. Among the most criticized parts of the new user interface [are] the new menu bar and Dock."

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Sensible timeline? (1)

Baumi (148744) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621703)

FTA:

In a little more than a month, Apple's development team targets a feature-full build.
[...]
The milestone that will follow the total feature-freeze is slated for September, as the target of Apple's internal development team is a totally feature-full and stable Final Candidate version of Mac OS X Leopard.
[...]
In early to mid October, Leopard should reach the Golden Master status and Apple will be launching the DVD and packaging production.
[...]
Finally, the release is scheduled for late October
Is that a realistic time frame? Seems to be an awfully short to me, then again I've never been involved in projects on that kind of scale.

Gigantic black penis (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19621835)

In your butt. [goatse.cz]

Re:Sensible timeline? (2, Insightful)

node 3 (115640) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622409)

How long are you thinking it will take to press a disc, stick it in a box, and ship it to the store?

Given that FC is in Sept., and FC is the first *intended* final version, a month+ of going through fine-tuning, and a week or two of manufacturing, seems more than adequate.

WTF? (4, Insightful)

Penguin Follower (576525) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621721)

Among the most criticized parts of the new user interface [are] the new menu bar and Dock."

OK, I watched the WWDC07 demos of Leopard and I thought the new Dock and menu bar looked good. What's the beef? I've not read any "reviews" yet. No matter what happens - come October this MacPro will be running Leopard.

The menu bar... (4, Insightful)

ZxCv (6138) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621779)

...seems to be the main complaint among the bits I've read. And after having used it now myself, I'd have to agree.

Personally, I like the new look of the dock. The menu bar, however, is something I really hope they make an option. For the same reason that I (and many others) don't want or use semi-transparent windows, I don't want a semi-transparent menu bar. It's like they threw readability and usability out the window, all in the name of looking "cool".

Re:The menu bar... (1)

aichpvee (631243) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622049)

I think they're copying from microsoft again on this "feature."

Re:The menu bar... (1)

harry666t (1062422) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622423)

Who isn't copying these days? It's too difficult to be innovative, really.

Re:The menu bar... (2, Interesting)

WhatAmIDoingHere (742870) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622287)

I've had leopard installed for about two days now and the semi-transparent menu bar is actually pretty nice. It doesn't jump out at you when you look near the top of documents.. It's just kinda.. there, but in the background.

The reflections from the dock are also very nice. It actually reflects everything, even video.

Re:The menu bar... (1)

kithrup (778358) | more than 7 years ago | (#19623591)

From seeing several different screenshots, I think it depends on what your desktop image is. Solid colours seem to work real well with it; some pictures work really nice; and a tiger pattern seems to be the worst :).

Patterns are bad (3, Informative)

ghutchis (7810) | more than 7 years ago | (#19623657)

The more small patterns you have in the image (or section of the image near the top), the worse the menu bar looks.

I have my Mac set to change the desktop once a day. At first, everything was great -- it was picking images with sky at the top -- essentially solid color. Then it brought up a zen rock garden, which is one of my favorite images.

On Leopard, it makes the menus unreadable. The dark/light pattern in the rocks makes it impossible to find letters in the menu. I've also found many pictures will make it difficult to read or identify menu extras on the right side of the screen.

They need to fix this ASAP. Oh, and the new Finder icons are horrible too. There's zero color contrast to identify the different folders.

Re:Patterns are bad (2, Informative)

WhatAmIDoingHere (742870) | more than 7 years ago | (#19625255)

I have something like a star field cluster for a background. Pretty much a bunch of black with greenish white dots. There's some of the cluster behind the "Help" menu but it doesn't keep me from being able to read "Help" and it doesn't look bad, either. The regular menus being transparent over my open document/browser/whatever actually is pretty cool.

Re:The menu bar... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19622345)

Hey, PC refugees! Still looking for the "maximize" button when your Mac has "zoom" [apple.com] instead? Take the hint, switcheurs: If you can't cope with multiple windows, GTFO. The Mac wasn't designed for one-track minds.

Re:The menu bar... (2, Interesting)

node 3 (115640) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622453)

I've heard it's optional (an interview with someone important at Apple (Steve?), or maybe even during the keynote). Have you checked in System Preferences? A "defaults write" command? Or maybe that feature is one of the "interface polishes" that are yet to happen.

Regardless, I think the translucent menu is a good idea, and one that probably doesn't grab you at first, but takes some acclimation. Also, I think having it be configurable via System Preferences (or at least via defaults), is also a good idea.

Re:WTF? (1)

Baumi (148744) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621795)

I haven't played around with Leopard myself yet, but I imagine a semi-translucent menu bar and a reflecting dock could get confusing sometimes.

E.g., I've read in a review that the new indicator for running applications - a small glowing dot - is sometimes difficult to spot between reflections on the dock. If that's the case, it seems like an unfortunate case of valuing eye candy higher than usability. I haven't read anything similar about the menu bar, but translucency on major interface items can be a pain.

Re:WTF? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19622101)

"I've read in a review that the new indicator for running applications - a small glowing dot - is sometimes difficult to spot between reflections on the dock."

I would have to agree. I've had some confusing issues with it, when trying it. I hope Apple fixes it.

The Dock & the Menu Bar (0)

Gary W. Longsine (124661) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621801)

People have complained that the dock doesn't look as cool on the side. The reflection design is really an artistic element that only works well when the dock is on the bottom, and always showing. Fine for demos in a keynote, but most people who use their computer move the dock to the side, to make more screen real estate in the vertical dimension, where it's badly needed. I guess teh menu bar looks a little "flat" to some people. I like it myself. I don't want it to be flashy and distracting.

Re:The Dock & the Menu Bar (1)

DDLKermit007 (911046) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621931)

Guess I must just be the oddball then. The dock stays on the bottom for me. Key is having it hide when not in use. Such a waste to have screen real-estate eaten by icons you need intermittently.

You're not alone. (1)

Penguin Follower (576525) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622153)

I keep my Dock on the bottom as well. I wanted more screen real estate, so I bought a Samsung 22" widescreen. Problem solved. Oh and I love DVI.

Re:You're not alone. (1)

Paisley Phrog (685921) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622665)

That's actually why I keep my dock on the side. I have a 20" iMac, so I have more width than height. I'll typically have a window stretch all the way up and down, but rarely side to side...so I found myself accidentally triggering the dock at the bottom. So, left side it is for me.

Re:You're not alone. (1)

Penguin Follower (576525) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622741)

My 22" widescreen has the same vertical resolution as a standard 4:3 19" monitor. Most people don't need more vertical than that. OTOH, I work with annoyingly-wide spreadsheets on a regular basis at work, so having a widescreen both at home and at work is very nice. :D

Re:The Dock & the Menu Bar (1)

osu-neko (2604) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622449)

You're not necessarily oddball, you're just not old school. If you've been using OSX since back when it was called Nextstep, you're probably more used to having it vertically on the side. Likewise if you come from the Unix/Linux/BSD camp and used Afterstep/Openstep/whatever.

If you're one of those oddballs who actually came from the Mac community, it's probably not unusual to leave it on the bottom. ;) But I and everyone I know has it on the right side.

Re:The Dock & the Menu Bar (1)

harry666t (1062422) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622545)

I'm not using OS X but my KDE is trying to resemble it, so let's say I have a menu bar at the top and a dock-like panel which I can move around.

My settings for the panel are: vertical, autohide, aligned to the upper-left corner, appears only when the mouse cursor moves to that corner, disappears immediately when the cursor goes off. And it's kinda perfect. I used to change my window manager to something new twice each week, and I think I already tried everything but what I could eventually code by myself, but this setup is *very* comfortable at the moment, and I haven't changed it for at least a month, which is a success :D Upper left corner of the screen seems to be the easiest place to access, dunno why. I think I'll continue my research now...

Get over yourself (0, Flamebait)

Deadguy2322 (761832) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624207)

Nobody gives a flying fuck how you have your desktop setup, not even your mother.

Re:The Dock & the Menu Bar (1)

Tickletaint (1088359) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624589)

I'm not using OS X but my KDE is trying to resemble it
Aren't you missing the whole point? It's look and feel. Skins won't replicate the subtle behaviors of every carefully crafted aspect of every user interface element. You, and the Firefox developers, would do well to learn that beauty is never skin deep.

Re:The Dock & the Menu Bar (4, Insightful)

node 3 (115640) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622475)

most people who use their computer move the dock to the side
I highly suspect this isn't true.

Re:The Dock & the Menu Bar (1)

iluvcapra (782887) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622749)

It's a common thing where I am, since all of our systems are built for one main application (Pro Tools) that you usually use in a one-window fullscreen mode, and you do a lot of side-scrolling, thus the dock gets in the way if it's at the bottom. The left edge is a compromise, since you're trading horizontal real estate, unless you have a wide monitor.

Re:The Dock & the Menu Bar (1)

node 3 (115640) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622819)

I realize it's common, I just don't believe that a majority of the 60 million or whatever installs of OS X there are out there have their docks on the side.

I suspect, for the aggregate of Macs, it's: dock on the bottom > dock on the bottom + audohide > dock on the side.

Although certainly, among some subsets of the Mac user base, docks on the side are going to be more prevalent than among others, perhaps so much so in some as to make up the majority. But in the general sense (which is what I was replying to), I would be extremely surprised to find out most docks are on the side.

Re:The Dock & the Menu Bar (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19623847)

Pardon me for asking but why is that Apple people have anything to do with slashdot, let alone post your comments?

As far as i can tell this site is about computers and not jewellery after all.

Hey, its cool if you're not into computers for computers sake, but if you just want to get the job done (assuming you have one and you're aware of how short life is) then perhaps you'd wise up to the marketing bilge?

Apart from anything else, doesn't the notion that you can express yourself and your lifestyle, with a nice purchase tend to churn the stomach a bit?

No? Oh well never mind.

Agreed (4, Interesting)

pavon (30274) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621909)

I think the transparent menu is unnecessary, and perhaps counterproductive, but not a huge deal. I'm curious about what is disliked about the dock though. Stacks seemed a nice feature, and other than that there really wasn't much to right home about. Oh actually I do have a complaint about the stack - smartly, the last item placed on the stack is the one visible in the dock, but when you go to fan them out, it become the farthest one away making it the hardest to click, even though it is the one you are most likely to open.

I'm also curious about how they are handling mounted volumes. I noticed that they were not on the desktop anymore (yea! I hate using the desktop for anything but wallpaper). It didn't look like they were available in the dock though either. Is the finder sidebar the only place you will be able to find them now? I'd love it if they were accessible via a special stack in the dock, with newly inserted ones showing up on the top. I use DragThing right now to do something similar.

While I'm drifting off subject, I've wondered how the shared volumes will work for large networks. Jobs mentioned that any computer will automatically be found (via netbios or zeroconf?) and will show up in the finder sidebar. What happens if you are on a company or dorm network - hundreds of computers in the sidebar? I'd hope not. Maybe after a certain number of computers, it is replaced with a "see entire network link" where you can browse and/or pick which computers should be in the sidebar.

Re:Agreed (2, Insightful)

Penguin Follower (576525) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622127)

I,too, am interested in stacks. And Spaces. I always made use of multiple virtual desktops on my Linux boxes. Oh and since I am bad about doing backups any more regularly than twice a year, I'll probably use Time Machine as well.

Core Animation is sweet. As is 64 bit from top to bottom.

Oh and what's the deal with the blazin' speed of Steve's demo machine that was at WWDC07? I've got quad-core 2.66GHz MacPro that just doesn't have the snappiness of the MacPro Steve demo'ed. Is there that much of a difference between mine and a 3.0GHz (quad or 8 core) in running regular apps? I just don't see it....

Re:Agreed (1)

Johnny Mnemonic (176043) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622705)

Jobs probably had it packed to the limit with RAM. How much better would your system run with 16GB of RAM?

Re:Agreed (1)

Penguin Follower (576525) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622841)

From my understanding, the MacPro suffers from increased latency if you fill all the memory slots. So 8GB of RAM would be the balance between the most RAM and keeping latency down. The performance review I read, which unfortunately I cannot remember which site I read it on, stated that using only 4 memory slots was best if you wanted to keep down latency. For me that's the only knock on the MacPro is that it uses FB-DIMMs (expensive RAM and more latency). Other than that I really like this machine.

Re:Agreed (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19624867)

The impact of memory latency is usually overstated, especially when you are looking at the performance of media-related tasks (i.e. throughput oriented). The Core 2 Duo has massive L2 caches to compensate for latency, and the win from having fast amounts of physical memory (instead of relying on virtual memory) would completely outweight the latency penalty.

As for why Jobs' demos really flew... if anything I'd guess that he had a maxed out GPU.

You know... (5, Informative)

SvnLyrBrto (62138) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622285)

> I'm also curious about how they are handling mounted volumes. I noticed
> that they were not on the desktop anymore (yea! I hate using the desktop
> for anything but wallpaper).

You can take HDs, CDs, iPods, servers, and mounted disc images off the desktop right now, if you're so inclined.

Go to Finder>Preferences, or use command-comma while Finder is the selected app. From there, just uncheck the top three ("Show these items on the Desktop") boxes in the "General" pane. Bamf... nothing on your desktop but what you purposely put there.

cya,
john
 

Re:Agreed (1)

dr.badass (25287) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622387)

I'm also curious about how they are handling mounted volumes. I noticed that they were not on the desktop anymore

The current Finder preferences have the option to not show volumes on the desktop. In all probability they've just changed the defaults. I've been using it this way for so long I didn't even notice they changed it.

Re:Agreed (1)

Paradise Pete (33184) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622691)

I noticed that they were not on the desktop anymore (yea! I hate using the desktop for anything but wallpaper)....Is the finder sidebar the only place you will be able to find them now?

Apparently hate is not big motivator for you. I suppose that's a good thing. Anyway, you can already choose (in preferences) which items appear on your desktop. And an answer to your other question is in the Go menu.

Re:Agreed (4, Insightful)

Firehed (942385) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622901)

I just pray that Leopard's Finder doesn't flip out if a network share suddenly goes missing, as Tiger's does. It's enough of a pain that I need to fully quit out of Azureus and iTunes which I have configured to do all of their storage on a network drive, and it's entirely my fault. But when my computer flips shit and locks up for fifteen minutes because I unplugged the network cable before unmounting all the shares... you get the idea. An auto-mount option, preferably with location-based configuration (sort of how I use MarcoPolo.app right now, with its scripting tools) would be great, but I'd be content if it simply gracefully disconnected from network shares that have become unavailable.

Re:Agreed (1)

paleo2002 (1079697) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624643)

yea! I hate using the desktop for anything but wallpaper

So, am I the only Mac user left in the world that has their disk icons and a "Documents" folder lined up along the right side of their desktop? Maybe because my first real computer was a Performa running System 7.1 I'm just used to working on the desktop. What I liked most when the Dock first came out was that it worked so much like the old Launcher.

Re:Agreed (1)

foo fighter (151863) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624907)

Yes.

Put your Documents folder under the Finder icon on the doc. Then click and hold on either to see them popup like the "Stacks" feature coming in Leopard.

That's right, Stacks is already available on OS X, just with a less shiny UI.

I think this is much more efficient than having to clear windows to see the Desktop to access mounted volumes.

Re:WTF? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19621913)

IMHO, the menu bar is a bit too translucent and sometimes hard to read. Yeah, that should be really hard to fix eh? And as for the new Dock, it's pure eye candy, but I think it looks great.

The problem with the new dock (3, Informative)

alms (871430) | more than 7 years ago | (#19623097)

is that you can't tell which applications are running and which are not. In the Tiger dock, running applications have a very visible black triangle under them. In the Leopard dock, there is a much more subtle shadowing effect that indicates running applications. It needs to be less subtle.

Re:The problem with the new dock (1)

duckbillplatypus (596100) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624861)

It depends on how you use the dock. I have the dock set to the smallest setting with magnification and auto hide. I prefer more screen real estate and less clutter. I use command-tab to scroll thru my open programs. This allows for me to move more quickly thru my programs and the command q quits the program. I find this is much faster than mousing to bottom of my screen. I almost use the dock exclusively to launch programs and nothing more. I dont find the subtle glow to inhibit my productivity. However your mileage will vary. So I said all of that to say this, it is a personal preference thing and hopefully there will be settings to address these preferences.

Amazing insight! (4, Insightful)

ZxCv (6138) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621729)

Is it just me, or is the "timeline" the article talks about not just something you could reasonably deduce, knowing where Leopard is at right now and when they plan to release it?

Didn't seem like there was any real new info here, but maybe it's just me.

Uhm (0, Troll)

suv4x4 (956391) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621783)

Among the most criticized parts of the new user interface [are] the new menu bar and Dock.

So basically the entire Desktop change is criticized. That's basically ALL that changed in Desktop: the menu and the dock.

It's kinda funny as well since it's the first time I've seen Mac lift "look and feel" straight from a Windows release (Vista).

other elements (1)

Gary W. Longsine (124661) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621827)

Well, not really. The unified look and feel is quite nice. It's much less of a distraction. The way emphasis of the window of current focus has improved a lot since Tiger, too.

Re:Uhm (3, Funny)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621889)

That's basically ALL that changed in Desktop: the menu and the dock.
I believe your forgot about the dewy grass Desktop image.

Won't somebody think of the dewy grass!

Re:Uhm (1)

sid0 (1062444) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622025)

You know, that seemed like a direct ripoff of Vista too. Innumerable builds of Vista have carried similar grass/leaves/take your green pick images.

Re:Uhm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19622109)

Plenty of gren dewy pictures in old os X... (gawd I can't believe this is what I'm talking about) and pretty flowers too.

"You know, that seemed like a direct ripoff of Vista too. Innumerable builds of Vista have carried similar grass/leaves/take your green pick images."

Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (-1, Flamebait)

sootman (158191) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621831)

A coworker came back from WWDC with his copy. Unless I'm mistaken, stacks are HORRIBLE!!! They don't appear to be optional--if you drop a folder into the Dock now, this is what you get. They do exactly one of two things: if they have 8-9 items, they open up in that stupid fan shape. More than that, you get a dopey grid. (No text, nothing but icons. Yeah, *that's* useful.) THAT'S IT! Right-clicking does NOTHING! So it used to be that you had multiple functions: click to open the folder in the finder, or right-click to turn it into a (nice, neat) little menu of contents. Now it's this one almost-useless behavior. Plus, the "stack" takes the icon of one of the folder's contents, rather than the folder's own icon--so not only is it almost useless, it's hard to use since its icon is constantly changing. (Note that in the Stevenote, the "Applications" folder had the Address Book's icon. While I was using mine, it was changing depending on what I added and deleted.)

Dearest Apple, please ditch this pretty-but-useless "feature", or give us a way to turn it off an revert back to the good old behavior!!!!!

please oh please submit feedback to ADC (2, Insightful)

Gary W. Longsine (124661) | more than 7 years ago | (#19621859)

Re:please oh please submit feedback to ADC (1)

bwy (726112) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622089)

I'm not sure what you tried to link to, but it doesn't go to a forum post or anything like that- just the developer homepage. Anyway I agree, stacks needs work. I'm curious if you found a post or something about this that we can add our 2 cents to.

Re:Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19621987)

Bullshit. In grid mode, the icons display with file names, and a right-click gets a menu, and one of the items is to open the folder in the Finder. Yeah, there are some rough spots that need fixing up, but because of the NDA I won't go into that. But I figured I'd stretch the NDA a little when I saw blatant misinformation about dock behavior, from someone whom I'm guessing doesn't actually have the beta but is just passing on misunderstood info.

Re:Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (-1, Redundant)

Penguin Follower (576525) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622023)

Mod parent up!

Re:Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (1)

FLAGGR (800770) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624211)

You have the best sig ever.

Re:Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622405)

ullshit. In grid mode, the icons display with file names, and a right-click gets a menu, and one of the items is to open the folder in the Finder. Yeah, there are some rough spots that need fixing up, but because of the NDA I won't go into that. But I figured I'd stretch the NDA a little when I saw blatant misinformation about dock behavior, from someone whom I'm guessing doesn't actually have the beta but is just passing on misunderstood info.


I'm torn between (a) breaking my NDA, (b) refusing to post anonymously and (c) watching someone who has very little exposure to Leopard make comments.

I guess I'll stick with keeping my mouth shut :)

For those who block all AC comments, I've repeated the quoted here. Make of it what you will.

Michael

Re:Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (1)

Tickletaint (1088359) | more than 7 years ago | (#19623605)

Those who block AC comments don't deserve to be informed.

Re:Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19622277)

You're right that by default the Stacks sort by and use the last added item icon, but you can change to different sort criteria and thus a different icon will be reflected in the stack.

It may be possible to manually change the stack icon but i haven't looked into it very much.

Another big complaint people had with Leopard is that a previously advertised feature of screen sharing within iChat appeared to have been moved to the new Finder instead. While the Finder does indeed support screen sharing i can state that iChat appears to have the feature there too. At least there is a screen sharing button in iChat and one of the capabilities iChat 4 reports is apple:iq:rd:server and apple:iq:rd:client.

For any XMPP devs that might read this post here's a list of all the capabilities reported when i did a service discovery on iChat:

iChat v3 capabilities

http://jabber.org/protocol/si [jabber.org]
http://jabber.org/protocol/si/profile/file-transfe r [jabber.org]
jabber:iq:version
http://jabber.org/protocol/bytestreams [jabber.org]
apple:iq:vc:capable
apple:iq:vc:multivideo
http://jabber.org/protocol/sipub [jabber.org]
http://jabber.org/protocol/xhtml-im [jabber.org]
vcard-temp:x:update
apple:iq:vc:video
apple:iq:vc:available
apple:iq:vc:audio
Service Discovery (http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info)
apple:profile:bundle-transfer
apple:iq:vc:multiaudio

iChat v4 additional capabilities

apple:iq:rd:client
apple:iq:vc:recauth
apple:iq:vc:ice
apple:iq:rd:server
apple:profile:efh-transfer
apple:iq:vc:auxvideo
http://www.apple.com/xmpp/message-attachments [apple.com]
apple:profile:transfer-extensions:rsrcfork

So it looks like iChat will get some new abilities. I think the ICE stuff will solve one of the major problems that Tiger users have complained about, NAT traversal for audio/video. I believe the efh stuff is encrypted file transfers but am not sure. Looks like there's no Jingle or true SIP support coming though. :(

Re:Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622367)

A coworker came back from WWDC with his copy. Unless I'm mistaken, stacks are HORRIBLE!!!


You are mistaken.

I think that there is enough from the keynote alone to demonstrate that it doesn't operate entirely as you have stated. Beyond that I can't say (NDA). And, in any case, this is still in beta, so don't get tied down on minor points.

As TFA states, there are several releases planned - and I think that whilst I don't know the timescale for the releases any more than you, I'd be stunned if the Developer preview ships unchanged. That is a major point of a beta preview, right? Partly to update your software, but partly to field test the whole shebang on a group of people who aren't going to cry the house down if not every feature is perfect or stable.

It is a preview, for developers. It will undoubtedly change.

Michael

Michael

Re:Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (2, Insightful)

dr.badass (25287) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622549)

. Unless I'm mistaken, stacks are HORRIBLE!!!

You are mistaken. Both views have a "Show In Finder" option, and the grid view most certainly does contain text. The screenshots on Apple's site, as well as the keynote demo both show this, which casts some doubt on everything else you've said.

Re:Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (1)

jimicus (737525) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622623)

ICBW, but if memory serves people were saying similar things about the Dock when Mac OS X 10.0 was in development.

I'm pretty sure they're not saying that now.

Re:Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622735)

They do exactly one of two things: if they have 8-9 items, they open up in that stupid fan shape. More than that, you get a dopey grid. (No text, nothing but icons. Yeah, *that's* useful.)


Actually, someone (not me!) has posted this stuff online:

Example of Stacks [brightcove.com] (Needs Flash, so it won't work on an iPhone!)

I think this shows enough to contradict what you have said.

Check this out before apple no doubt removes it and sets the lawyers on the website.

Michael

Re:Please oh please oh please, DITCH STACKS! (1)

fermion (181285) | more than 7 years ago | (#19623211)

I seldom complain about mods, but this post is indicative of why the mod system does not work well. It seems many people on /. mod to protect corporate stock prices, rather than promote realistic discussion.

I don't know how stacks are going to work. I suspect that I will not like them, in the same way I ddi not like dock. I still have issues with the dock, but have made it work for me. Any changes they make to the dock, might be to the better.

I am not sure what is happening with menus. What I do know is that the fix menu is not working well for large screens. I actually like the fact that I go into x-windows for my office applications. I don't want to go the random order and tiny icon route that MS seems to favor, as I live by the expectations that certain menu items will be in a certain spot, just like I live by the fact that the keys on my keyboard will be in a certain spot. In any case, menus can be improved.

Back to stacks, it this not the piles motif that has been floating around for years? Things kind of come and go with the Apple OS. If people use it, and it is reliable, it stays. If not, it goes. Sort of like the location option for various settings.

I am not in hurry for this version of Mac OS. I think it will mostly be of interest to those who have the new Intel macs and want to run MS Windows. I will likely acquire with my next Mac, and see if it is worth upgrading the other machines.

Transparency craziness... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19621927)

"What we may expect is additional settings and [some] user interface polish[ing]. Among the most criticized parts of the new user interface [are] the new menu bar and Dock."

Okay, I was wondering what the "new menu bar and Dock" were referring to. Here's Apple's page [apple.com] on the subject. Damn, I was really hoping they were bringing back NextStep-like vertical menu bars a an option, but, nooooo, they're making the menubar transparent. Useless. One of the most key UI elements transparent? Why? For a few extra pixels of the desktop that you won't usually see behind windows anyway? What is this? Windows Vista? Thank goodness they are apparently leaving the window border transparency alone.

It's a bad sign when the OS isn't released yet and there's already a patch to remove this new "feature" [manytricks.com] . Please, Apple, at least make it optional in Preferences.

Re:Transparency craziness... (1)

26199 (577806) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622211)

Ew.

Windows reflect in the dock... that strikes me as a really horrible idea.

Re:Transparency craziness... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19623981)

What really is horrible is the fact that you are evidently quite happy to use this site as a forum to discuss your trashy machines.

Hey, loads of people reckon that purchasing stuff can be a form of self expression, after all it seems to be a part of life nowadays.

But not that many people are prepared to use "information processing devices" as a vehicle for their masturbatory lives.

Is this a reason why apple never seem to sell that many computers?

What I'd like to know (1)

An Anonymous Hero (443895) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622105)

Has it been announced (e.g. on Apple developer mailing lists) what versions Leopard will have of
  • apache
  • bash
  • ksh
  • openssl
  • perl
  • postfix
  • python
  • ruby
  • sqlite
  • ssh
  • svn (?)
  • zsh
  • x11
etc...?

Re:What I'd like to know (1)

xSacha (1000771) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622145)

I don't think it's that important what version it ships with. You can guess it would be a pretty recent version and that they would update it when stable updates were released.

Re:What I'd like to know (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19622263)

"You can guess it would be a pretty recent version and that they would update it when stable updates were released"

Apple does not automatically update tools when new stable releases come out with Tiger. Why would they start doing it with Leopard?

Re:What I'd like to know (1)

An Anonymous Hero (443895) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622323)

Well typically point updates (e.g. 10.4.x) have rarely if ever updated those components; except perhaps ssh in security updates.

So, I would expect that the 10.5 versions are already being tested in current builds, and that we'll be stuck with them for quite some time.

Re:What I'd like to know (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622251)

Has it been announced (e.g. on Apple developer mailing lists) what versions Leopard will have of

        * apache
        * bash
        * ksh
        * openssl
        * perl
        * postfix
        * python
        * ruby
        * sqlite
        * ssh
        * svn (?)
        * zsh
        * x11


For some of them, yes.

But seeing that those who know, like myself, have a NDA on the matter, I can't really comment too much.

I don't think that too many developers will be disappointed with these *nix level packages in Lepoard, but then again, alot of developers already know the answer to this question. I can say that apple puts a lot of effort into keeping its developers happy.

One thing I'm sure of - if the package you want isn't the most up to date, Apple won't stop you installing it. They never have in the past, and I doubt that they will any time soon with these sorts of packages.

Michael

Re:What I'd like to know (1)

An Anonymous Hero (443895) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622427)

NDA
Yeah, I kind of expected this reply, since of course the answers are a --version away for anyone with a beta build. That's why I specifically asked about anything said on the mailing lists, e.g. by Apple engineers, which I guess is then fair game to repeat. (I've seen that done before, those are not HUGE secrets; just didn't follow this time.)

if the package you want isn't the most up to date, Apple won't stop you installing it
Of course. It's more about what I can expect other people, who won't bother to use fink or macports, to have as the standard versions.

Re:What I'd like to know (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622689)

Of course. It's more about what I can expect other people, who won't bother to use fink or macports, to have as the standard versions.


Think happy developers.

Michael

Re:What I'd like to know (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19624489)

Is this a hint that fink is installed by default?

Re:What I'd like to know (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19624649)

No, it isn't.
I do know that there's Python 2.5.1 and X11 based on Xorg 7.2
Also Bash 3.2. Haven't seen any info about other stuff.

Multitouch ! (1)

tronnolon (1119261) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622143)


What about multitouch? -- It's already incorporated into the iPhone interface,

and the iPhone is running Leopard ...

iPhone doesn't run Leopard (1)

MasterOfGoingFaster (922862) | more than 7 years ago | (#19623175)

iPhone does run an os named 'OS X' but that doesn't mean it has anything in common with the Darwin-based OS X running on the Macs. Just because Microsoft calls several products 'Windows' doesn't mean they share much (if any) code.

Ported to ARM? (1)

tronnolon (1119261) | more than 7 years ago | (#19623449)

"Ihnatko and Apple's insistence that the device is running OS X contradicts suggestions that, to be blunt, it is not, as a post on tech site Slashdot explains."

There are conflicting rumors [roughlydrafted.com] , with comments coming from Chicago Sun-Times columnist Andy Ihnatko [pcpro.co.uk] suggesting iPhone does indeed run Leopard - pared down and ported to ARM - for shared code base and to take advantage of Core Animation. When a developer SDK is released it would make sense to have cross-compatibilty, and multitouch functionality as a Leopard module would make a complementary match.

iPhone Cocoa, Core Animation, Objective-C, AppKit (1)

tronnolon (1119261) | more than 7 years ago | (#19623523)


... much more on the iPhone codebase here [slashdot.org] .

To the original point, whenceforth multitouch Apple hardware?

iPhone Darwin BSD OS X Port (1)

tronnolon (1119261) | more than 7 years ago | (#19623575)


... and more here [slashdot.org] .

" (2) a substantiated look at how the iPhone is indeed running OS X (contrary to reports that it isn't), and (3) what it means to users and developers, and how ARM is involved, in Mac OS X, ARM, and iPod OS X, and why the supposedly 'closed' system Apple describes for the iPhone won't preclude third party development."

Re:Multitouch: Already there in Mac OS X 10.4 (2, Interesting)

atrocious cowpat (850512) | more than 7 years ago | (#19623645)

"What about multitouch? -- It's already incorporated into the iPhone interface, "

Actually you have (limited) Multitouch-capability already in OS X 10.4. The MacBooks' and MacBookPros' Trackpads will interpret actions you do with two fingers differently than actions you do with one finger. Examples:

click [one finger] = "left click"
click [two fingers] = "right click" ("control click" for you 1-button-mouse-maccies ;) )

drag [one finger] = nothing (unless trackpad-button is depressed, then it's "drag selected item")
drag [two fingers] = scroll horizontally or vertically, depending on direction of drag

The latter function (two-finger-scroll) is actually one of the nicest input-features i've ever encountered, right on par with the scroll-wheel (slightly better even, because it works horizontally too, without having to press any modifier key). I had heard about it and could not quite imagine how this would be good, but once I tried it I was hooked immediately.(*)

I, too, hope that Apple will expand the Multitouch-capabilities of their OS/Trackpads, but the basic functionality is already here.

(*) Yes, I know there were Trackpads before with dedicated strips for scrolling (or software, that would create a "scrolling-area" on your trackpad, but this works without having to think about where you put your fingers (and it works seamlessly in the x/y-directions).

What the future may bring ... (1)

tronnolon (1119261) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624121)


Front [imageshack.us] and side [imageshack.us] , concept multitouch iMac mockup.

Perceptive Pixel [perceptivepixel.com] demo by Jeff Han, TED [ted.com] talk, research homepage [nyu.edu] . Fingerworks [fingerworks.com] , purchased by Apple, 2005.

Re:Multitouch ! (1)

kimble3 (736268) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624111)

Just wildly speculating, but what if Apple announced new iMacs with a multi-touch display? How cool would that be? And a whole lot more affordable than Microsofts coffee table!

Re:Multitouch ! (1)

tronnolon (1119261) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624397)

Indeed! -- See pics here [slashdot.org] on the parent post ...

Still crap resizing of windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19622149)

Yes, only one place, bottom right. Come on Apple, we could resize windows from any edge 20 fscking years ago! Heck, OS X doesn't even let you change the system fonts without the use of 3rd party tools.

Re:Still crap resizing of windows (1)

Goaway (82658) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622593)

On of my favourite changes when I moved from Windows to OS X was getting rid of the goddamn resizing borders.

Re:Still crap resizing of windows (1)

freedumb2000 (966222) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624523)

How true!

Re:Still crap resizing of windows (1)

XaXXon (202882) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624555)

yeah, but half the resizing options are two-step processes. I want to make the top of a window higher? Move the window up. Straight up - not perfect with the mouse? Gotta get it where you want it horizontally again. Now, drop the bottom down. Better move your mouse peftectly down. What? You didn't go straight down? Now you get to line it up horizontally on the right side now.

PITA.

Re:Still crap resizing of windows (1)

Goaway (82658) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624621)

Perhaps the solution is to get rid of this habit of obsessively resizing windows.

Re:Still crap resizing of windows (1)

that this is not und (1026860) | more than 7 years ago | (#19625797)

Indeed. Restricting what the user can do is always an option.

Dock 3D is a major improvement (1)

gig (78408) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622381)

> Among the most criticized parts of the new user interface [are] the new menu bar and Dock."

The menu bar obviously needs a control of some kind in Preferences, that enables you to set the amount of the new effect, even to zero. There is already a third-party app that fixes this for the developer preview, they can make it a non-issue entirely with a single check box or slider.

The new Dock is awesome, though. It is not 3D eye candy, it actually is 3D. Instead of a strip of flypaper with 2D photos stuck on it, now you have a shelf with 3D objects sitting on it. Some objects are behind other objects. In a single position you can have a "stack" of documents where one is clearly in the front and many more behind, and you can leaf through them with a gesture. The Dock's look has not even changed, it just has an extra dimension.

It's like when you're taking a group photo and you get too many people for one row you have to make a second row and then a third. The Dock has a way to do this now. We have more stuff than ever. Vastly improved.

Re:Dock 3D is a major improvement (2, Insightful)

dr.badass (25287) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622639)

The new Dock is awesome, though. It is not 3D eye candy, it actually is 3D.

No, sorry. It's 2D that looks 3D. You don't need 3D to create the reflection effect, or to have objects appear to be behind other objects. Also, Stacks don't work quite how you seem to think. They're just a different view for Dock folders. You can't create a "second row" of apps, for instance.

It's "two-and-a-half" D, no? (1)

argent (18001) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622797)

It is not 3D eye candy, it actually is 3D.

Really?

In the videos it looked like a typical "two-and-a-half" dimension interface, where the third dimension is an effect applied to a two-dimensional interface, like the "3d" drop shadowed-windows in OS X, or the "3d" buttons that have become the norm for windowed GUIs over the past decade and a half: you would get the same functionality with a short vertical stack of objects in two dimensions.

This isn't intended to put it down, or anything... I don't think that full 3d makes a lot of sense here, actually, so I'm curious as to what you mean by "it actually is 3d".

(as an aside, what I want to see is the ability to run applets in the dock... it's one of the things I miss from the enhanced NeXT-style dock in Windowmaker/GNUstep)

Re:It's "two-and-a-half" D, no? (1)

freedumb2000 (966222) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624539)

Applets in the Dock sound like a great idea. I use neither the Dashboard nor do i like the Vista way of putting applets on the desktop. I would actually use applets in the Dock.

Blu-Ray & HDDVD Support? (1)

aldheorte (162967) | more than 7 years ago | (#19622463)

Does anyone have definitive information on what HD formats Leopard will support? Last I checked. rumors swirled around support for one or the other or none. I use a Mac Mini as media center and if Leopard does not support the HD formats (and someone does not come out with an affordable combo, or at least HDDVD. drive), it does not sound like a very appealing upgrade for that use.

Re:Blu-Ray & HDDVD Support? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19622645)

Apple has backed Blu-Ray for a very long time now. They even joined Board of Directors [apple.com] of the Blu-ray Disc Association. Thus, Bu-ray support is a certainty. That said, however, rumors have it they will also hedge their bet by supporting HD-DVD.

They don't BUILD MacOS X (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19622873)

Mortals did not write and build Leopard. It had been hidden away years ago by the Knights Templar.

It's late because the secret to its existence was discovered by his Steve on a trip to the Louvre and it took this much time to discover its true location.

Aqua tweaks (1)

Y-Crate (540566) | more than 7 years ago | (#19623141)

I would hope that the Aqua interface elements get a reworking before the final release. They look absolutely out of place in the new unified interface scheme. If they simply copied over the iPhone style Leopard would look a whole lot better. Take a look at them side by side [appleinsider.com] and tell me which you prefer.

zfs (1)

yahurd (1093957) | more than 7 years ago | (#19624803)

we will add features
like zfs? sun doesnt lie about these things, _you_ do.

It's like Copeland all over again! (2, Insightful)

Bones3D_mac (324952) | more than 7 years ago | (#19625231)

Personally, I think Apple has finally lost it after several years of producing innovations that have changed much of the world. The fact that they are touting a transparent menubar as a major feature suggests their idea pool for MacOS X development is starting to collapse in the same way Copeland did in the mid 90's. They've become too focused on presentation and eye candy, rather than improving what goes on under the hood.

Of course, that isn't to say MacOS X hasn't been a mess in terms of the Human Interface Guidelines (on which the Mac OS was based) since the earliest public releases, but making the one visual concept that has remained consistent and immediately recognizeable in all versions of the Mac OS almost completely invisible has to be the single worst offense to date. The menubar was supposed to be a fixed (and always visible) reference point for the user to rely on while the rest of the desktop evironment continually changes during each session of use. It's the one part of the OS that keeps everything else organized and easily understood.

Aside from Leopard, we'll soon have the iPhone to contend with, which is sure to be a nightmare once the early adopters get past the hype and Steve Jobs' Reality Distortion Field and start to realize just how confining the device really is due to all the red tape that comes with it. It will probably sell as expected, but in the end, it may go down in history as on of the worst products in Apple's history, next to the Lisa, as a result of all the artificial limitations imposed upon it that kept it from being the killer product everyone really wanted it to be.

By the time this all plays out, Steve Jobs may get ousted for both 10.5 and the iPhone, much like Gil Amelio was due to Copeland and mac cloning.
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