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Dot-Com Work Culture Making a Comeback?

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the brace-yourselves-lads-you-know-what-comes-next dept.

Businesses 456

jeebus writes "This week a Deloitte study has shown that high on the agenda of CEOs around the world is the shortage of tech talent. Is a shortage of talented geeks in the market seeing a return of the dot-com culture with foosball tables, beanbags, and inflated salaries used to entice talented workers? Welcome to Web 2.0 work culture, the future of yesterday. 'Global recruitment companies were telling prospecting employees that they were no longer going to be employed just because they were a technical guru. They were going to have to learn to dress, communicate, and adapt all the traditional corporate ideals that IT has been exempt from during the dot-com boom. Fast forward to Web 2.0 and while workplaces aren't as cheesy with their decor as they were were in the late '90s, and developers aren't getting paid $100K for being HTML and JavaScript jockeys, geeks just aren't chuffed with corporate culture.'"

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Anyone hiring? (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19729827)

I'm an excellent slacker... err superstar geek programmer.

sigh (3, Insightful)

wwmedia (950346) | more than 7 years ago | (#19729837)

yea cant wait for DotComBurst 2.0

Re:sigh (3, Funny)

mgabrys_sf (951552) | more than 7 years ago | (#19729897)

re:"yea cant wait for DotComBurst 2.0"

You must be a barrel of kicks at parties:

"Happy Birthday. You're closer to death now you know. Can't wait."

Re:sigh (4, Funny)

Architect_sasyr (938685) | more than 7 years ago | (#19729991)

Nah, I usually grin at my aunts and uncles at funerals and say "You're next".

Stops them suggesting marriage anytime soon.

Re:sigh (0, Offtopic)

Clay_Culver (583328) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730439)

I've heard that before... Anyone know where it came from originally?

Re:sigh (1, Informative)

Short Circuit (52384) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730511)

Saw it once upon a time at [] .

Re:sigh (1)

MontyApollo (849862) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730075)

I thought the dotcom bust came because it was an artificial build-up to begin with - venture capitalists and other investors just throwing bunches of money at companies whose own prospectus said the company had little chance of succeeding.

I'm sure there are natural cycles, but the retiring of baby boomers should should not really lead to an eventual "bust."

it's going to come up (5, Informative)

yagu (721525) | more than 7 years ago | (#19729845)

It's going to come up, so let me save you all some time:

From The English to American Dictionary []

chuffed adj. Someone who describes themselves as being chuffed is generally happy with life. You can also get away with saying you are unchuffed or dischuffed if something gets your back up. Make sure you only use this word in the correct tense and familiarise yourself with the meaning of the word

Re:it's going to come up (2, Funny)

Esion Modnar (632431) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730339)

Is chuffed anything like gruntled?

misconception about salaries? (4, Interesting)

192939495969798999 (58312) | more than 7 years ago | (#19729849)

I really haven't seen any hard evidence that all that many 'web jockeys' were getting some $100k salary, unless they lived in the valley, where cost of living is so bad that 100k is practically minimum wage unless you take the bus 2 hours to work. Does anyone have any stats to back up what the average dot-com era 'web jockey' salary was compared with today?

Re:misconception about salaries? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730001)

I have no stats, only an anecdote from the midwest, where I made $40K a year teaching the TCP/IP stack in a community college for the 2-year networking students (I was the token Unix/OSS guy in an MS oriented program; there was also a token Novell guy who made about $20k more). Evening continuing education classes in HTML/Web use brought another $20K a year. People with the same skillset were making slightly more in private industry. I was later replaced at a cheaper rate by one of my best students. I am now back on the private side, making less, but with greater responsibility and opportunities.

Re:misconception about salaries? (2, Informative)

timeOday (582209) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730085)

I won't be feeling guilty about "inflated" salaries anytime soon. Productivity and profits have been soaring while compensation is stagnant [] for years now. There's still plenty of caterwauling from bosses about worker shortages and jobs people won't take (...for what we want to pay, of course), but I've realized that's just normal and not indicative of anything in particular. Bosses will always want lower wages.

Re:misconception about salaries? (4, Interesting)

cavemanf16 (303184) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730273)

Correction: The average, below average, and just-plain-dumb "bosses" will always want lower wages. The smart "bosses" are more concerned about the holistic profitability of their business, not just how cheap they can get with their workers. Harvard Business Review has a pretty good article [] on this facet of American business.

Re:misconception about salaries? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730579)

Indeed. What these management types think of as inflated salaries is a perception problem on their part, not the developers'. It is well documented that a really good developer can be at least an order of magnitude more productive than the average. Do they get paid 10x as much for their time buy a business employing them? Of course not, that's "not the market rate"...

...Unless you take a leap of faith and go self-employed or start your own business. Now if you're a talented developer, your greater productivity benefits you directly or a company that you own, and you really can get the financial benefits that your skill level deserves on merit.

Realistically, most managers aren't smart and knowledgeable enough to understand this and offer salaries that really are attractive to people good enough to have the other option open to them. That's why they keep bitching about a shortage of talent, yet in the next breath refer to the "inflated" salaries of the dot com boom (where despite all the failures, quite a few small companies made an awful lot of money very fast using good people).

Re:misconception about salaries? (4, Interesting)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730173)

I really haven't seen any hard evidence that all that many 'web jockeys' were getting some $100k salary, unless they lived in the valley

I'm guessing that's what they're referring to. Though it's kind of amusing that they'd be using the example of HTML and Javascript, seeing as how those two are a cornerstone of Web2.0. In fact, Javascripting has gone from a simple thing that you assign to juniors to a full-up development language that now you need sophisticated developers to wrangle. Welcome, Web2.0.

Of course, I'm also bemused by the idea that the Dot-Com "culture" belonged to the Dot-Coms. The Dot-Commers got the idea from the Valley technology companies back in the 80's. Back when Atari stomped the earth, Microsoft had to actually compete, a B&W Macintosh was the height of technology, and new microcircuit inventions were popping up every other day. While those companies didn't go to the extremes that Dot-Com companies went to, they were still well-known for their coddling of developers. Loose dress-codes (shocking!), arcade machines in the office (gasp!), flexible working hours (aka 24x7), comfortable environments (dibs on the bean bags!), and just a general attitude of "do what comes natural" were the way that Valley offices were run from the day that Nolen Bushnell founded Atari on forward to today. (Minus a few wrong turns for "seriousing up" of such companies. Yar, I'm looking at you.)

Re:misconception about salaries? (0)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730483)

The idea of someone being "good" with HTML is hilariously outdated. There are any number of wysiwyg editors that take care of all the annoying html for you. Myself being a coder rather than a graphic artist, I've waded through a lot of HTML in my time, and I can't remember the last time I saw HTML that wasn't machine generated. It was probably back in college.

Now javascript, as it is today rather than the comparatively primitive javascript of 6-7 years ago is pretty valuable, but it's not something I'd want to base my career on.

XHTML/CSS (2, Interesting)

Infonaut (96956) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730551)

The idea of someone being "good" with HTML is hilariously outdated.

I disagree. Someone truly skilled at XHTML/CSS can make a lot of money even today. I know multiple people who are doing just that. Faster rendering, easier maintainability, and protection from vendor lock-in are very compelling reasons for having a skilled XHTML/CSS developer do the work. It's not programming, but it can be extremely important. Just ask one of the many Fortune 500 companies that are still hamstrung by reliance on WYSIWYG tools that generate table-driven layouts and spaghetti code.

Re:misconception about salaries? (4, Funny)

Red Flayer (890720) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730593)

Yar, I'm looking at you.
Yar! right back at you, matey, but what does piracy have to do with this?

Also, please stop looking at me, I haven't had the chance to put my eye-patch on today.

Re:misconception about salaries? (2, Interesting)

Infonaut (96956) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730611)

The Dot-Commers got the idea from the Valley technology companies back in the 80's.

Indeed. The money to fund exorbitant play activities like foosball tables dried up after the Dot Bomb, but the relaxed dress code, flexible hours, and "it's what you do, not how you look" attitude of Silicon Valley entrepreneurism never changed. I can't think of the last time I saw a suit in a meeting, and that includes gatherings with VCs.

Re:misconception about salaries? (2, Insightful)

Stochastism (1040102) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730179)

No, I don't think the average salary is 100k USD. But I do think that companies like Google, MS, Yahoo, Amazon, are massive contributors to the shortage of good technical people. Just think, Google will just about on principle employ any computer science graduate from the top 10% of the good universities. Yes, they have to pass some tricky interviews, but that is what discriminates the top 10% from the others. Google don't need a position for them to fill, they just want to hire them, and for more that 100k. It stops other companies getting those students, their over-inflated work ethics, and their current and future ideas.

And imagine what these companies are doing to the long-term future of CS education. All over the world the best graduates are being sucked up this Web 2.0 straw, leaving the old-farts, and the not quite top notch newbies to teach the next generation of computer scientists and IT professionals.

Re:misconception about salaries? (0, Offtopic)

Broken scope (973885) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730239)

You insensitive clod, I had to have my work ethic removed.

Re:misconception about salaries? (1)

Stochastism (1040102) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730487)

You insensitive clod, I had to have my work ethic removed.


Believe me, you'll thank me when you're 64 and you still alive!

Re:misconception about salaries? (1)

MontyApollo (849862) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730269)

Small point, and maybe not pertinent, but the article is from Australia, so their might be some exchange rate and other issues.

Re:misconception about salaries? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730327)

Wow, to make 100k a year I'd take a bus for 2 hours each way. That much money I could retire in 10 years buy a home back on the east coast and live a modest life :)

Re:misconception about salaries? (1)

IdleTime (561841) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730621)

Hahah,. so naive...

Trust me, that will not be the case, when you make 100k, you still think it is not enough and wonder how you are going to make more money.

It doesn't matter how much you make, it will always be a bit too little.

Re:misconception about salaries? (5, Insightful)

hkgroove (791170) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730347)

It wasn't just the salaries if that was the main problem at all. It was more general mis-management of money and lack of responsibility by upper management or project managers. I made 40k right out of the gates, but in about 3 months I expensed nearly that in travel (first class), hotels (The W in SF, HoB in Chicago, etc). I had no limit / per diem for food placed on me. Instead of returning home on the weekends we would take trips to Vegas or Tahoe or LA. Other project managers would fight to goto lunch with us and normally we'd end up with a group of 10 and daily lunch bills of nearly $400. It was one big college party with catered breakfasts and dinners, fully stocked bar and kegs (usually of Guinness) refilled once a week.

I heard stories of people asking for books of cab receipts and filling them out randomly just to get an extra $10 or $20 here and there.

Multiply all that by the 5 or 6 people they would shuffle around to create the team it adds up.

When you add that to all these companies wanting to get the big accounts / clients and ignoring the smaller ones that could keep them afloat, yes, you're going to bleed money. $150 million in funds gone in 17 months. I still can't fathom it.

Re:misconception about salaries? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730431)

in 1999-2000 i was an HTML monkey at a big tech company. i lived in boston, with relatively high wages and lots of tech jobs. maybe i was getting completely ripped off, but my salary peaked at 42k. i wish i'd known i could have commanded more than twice that much.

granted, 42k is a pretty nice salary for doing about an hour of real work a week. especially since that "real work" was being an HTML monkey.

Cost (5, Interesting)

GWLlosa (800011) | more than 7 years ago | (#19729883)

You see this kind of thing happen whenever demand for IT professionals goes up because of the common perception that IT people are 'geeks/nerds' who are willing to take compensation in the form of casual wear and beanbag chairs instead of in salary... Given that the company is interested in its own bottom line, which is cheaper, a pinball machine or giving everyone a raise?

Re:Cost (2, Interesting)

Architect_sasyr (938685) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730017)

Despite everything else, it's getting harder to find jobs, especially with all the outsourcing to (stereo-type) India. I wear casual clothes to work, something comfortable (which, incidentally, includes suit pants), but the only reason I'm on the wage I am on and not something higher is because if I didn't cut the wanted rate, I wouldn't have gotten the work. Even if the demand is up, there's almost always someone willing to undercut you a few grand to get the job you're trying for.

Clothes are a cost (3, Insightful)

paladinwannabe2 (889776) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730061)

Having to wear nicer (read: more expensive) clothing is a cost, both in terms of purchasing clothes and the time it takes to put them on and iron them (it takes more time to button up a shirt and tie a tie than to toss on a T-shirt). Plus, it's more comfortable. It's probably worth 1-2% of my salary to avoid wearing such things. (Of course, it's a personal preference- it's probably worth 10-20% for my boss, who's picky about such things, and ~0.5% to another coworker, who doesn't mind dressing up, but still sees a slight advantage to not doing so).

Re:Clothes are a cost (2, Informative)

Imsdal (930595) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730415)

I'll grant you that it takes slightly longer to button a shirt and don a tie than to put on a t-shirt. However, the huge time sink is the ironing.

Fortunately, there are excellent non iron shirts nowadays. They are no longer your grandfather's nylon shirts, but high quality 100% cotton shirts. In particular, I can recommend Brooks Brothers (a bit more expensive but quite affordable from outlets) and Lands' End. (No links. I'm not that much of a shill...)

My best estimate is that I make 20%-30% more now than what I would have made, had I not dressed reasonably well. And really, with non iron shirts it's actually comfortable and time saving.

Re:Cost (2, Insightful)

Drew McKinney (1075313) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730083)

the common perception that IT people are 'geeks/nerds' who are willing to take compensation in the form of casual wear and beanbag chairs instead of in salary.

I don't think that perception is entirely true. I think IT professionals are a bit more demanding than your average business folk. We want our beanbag chairs and our big salary, "because without us, you are nothing".

The one thing I've heard from business folk time and time again is that IT professionals "Don't know the business". That is, we deep-dive so much that we don't come up to see the "big picture" and are then seen as low-level in the eyes of the business. In that way, they often don't know how to justify our high wages in comparison to their own - "Why am I, a business manager, only making as much as an IT geek??"

Re:Cost (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730125)

Yes, but take the inverse. I worked IT at one place where there were secretaries making more money then IT staff. Explain that one to me.

Re:Cost (4, Insightful)

Xentor (600436) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730295)

Hey, don't underestimate the secretaries!

In a big firm with a lot of red tape, a good secretary can be the difference between something getting done today, and it taking three to six months. A good one will know who to call and what to do to Get. Things. Done.

If we had a secretary in this department, I would be writing code, instead of trying to coordinate with support people and filling out forms just to get a few computers moved around...

Re:Cost (1)

jshriverWVU (810740) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730599)

were secretaries making more money then IT staff.

They're called Office Assistant, and as long as their banging the boss they can make as much as he can afford. ;)

Re:Cost (1)

tf23 (27474) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730267)

The one thing I've heard from business folk time and time again is that IT professionals "Don't know the business". That is, we deep-dive so much [...]
Yes, but the deep-diving, isn't that what they're paying us for?

Re:Cost (1)

Gregb05 (754217) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730457)

I don't know about you, but... I'm being paid for programming.

Re:Cost (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730301)

"because without us, you are nothing"

Is a defeting mind set. Becasue you are replaceable. The replacement may not be as good but they will be cheaper and get what is needed to get done. If you are getting the fabled $100k a year Programming job and you do a good job and your code is perfect. It still may be better for the company to dump you hire a less experienced programmer at $30K and deal with loss in productivity from poorer quality work. Or what could happen is like right after the Bubble Popped is Managers went to their other employees handed them a VB book and go Here you are now the programmer. Durring the 1990s there was a huge demmand for IT. Now there is a shortage in supply of IT. Both cases raise in Prices and Benefits. But still with a small supply there is a point where it is not worth the price.

Re:Cost (1)

jshriverWVU (810740) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730475)

"Why am I, a business manager, only making as much as an IT geek??"

Because business managers manage, we create. Without creating a product the managers wouldn't have a job either. It's a mutual thing. We need the managers to get our code to the market and sold using his/her resources so he can afford our salary.

Re:Cost (1)

arivanov (12034) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730185)

This dress code on/dress code off is more or less a US specific phenomenon. We never saw it on this side of the pond. Very few companies tried it and all of them tried it for the sole reason of underpaying their workers by 25%+, not for the reason of bringing "talent".

Re:Cost (1)

Sparr0 (451780) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730493)

That perception is common because it tends to be true. Wearing a suit every day is not worth $1000/yr to me (IT guys who work for the state legislature here have to when there is an active session). A "fun" work environment, with common spaces and games and such, is probably worth another $1000/yr to me. I would easily take a $40k job at a "dot com" style workplace over a $45k job at a typical cube farm.

Re:Cost (1)

Utilitygeek (969913) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730571)

I'm an employee at a company that is rapidly expanding (ie went from 6 to 11 employees in a 2-month span, plus outsourcing projects). My bosses right now *can't* pay me outlandish wages and still have the resources to manage our rapid growth. I'm not speculating -- I've seen the budget sheets. So what do they do? They give the employees perqs to make our lives easier, and keep us happy. My cell phone plan is paid for. We have a pool table and a nice TV for when we need a break. There are snacks and caffeine (drug of choice for code slaves!) in the break room. Quite frankly, I'd rather have my life simplified as such than make a bit extra -- but then, I'm in the industry because I'm lazy.

I don't see it (1)

ReidMaynard (161608) | more than 7 years ago | (#19729925)

I have a lot of *nix sys admin / security / prog / telco-grade-networking, and my rate is just getting back to 1994 levels; in RTP

All I know... (5, Funny)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 7 years ago | (#19729983)

Any company that won't let me bring my bong to work isn't worth working for.

Thank God Sony gave me this great job developing games for the PS3.

Re:All I know... (5, Funny)

genner (694963) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730105)

So they are making another Katamari game.

Re:All I know... (1)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730277)

Nah, Katamari is going to be on the Wii [] now. It was too difficult to port to the PS3. Instead, Sony is going for "Nada THREE!"

(Don't get me started on how the Playstation is like television. 5,000,000 options, nothing worth playing at the moment.)

Re:All I know... (1)

genner (694963) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730467)

Ah so now nintendo employees are on the smack.
No one could design a game like that without being high on something.

Re:All I know... (5, Funny)

EveryNickIsTaken (1054794) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730387)

You're an inspiration to us all.

Re:All I know... (1)

hkgroove (791170) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730507)

You can always settle on roof access.

It's not THAT good yet... (4, Interesting)

tjstork (137384) | more than 7 years ago | (#19729989)

I worked at a DOT BURSTER in 2000, in big wide open space in the burbs, and they had free pizza every Fridays, everyone could wear jeans, I could roll in more or less whenever I wanted, and we all had potentially millions of dollars in soon to be worthless stock options. When hired they asked me if I wanted Linux, or Windows, or both. All of our servers were named after Transformers.

Now, I have a little cubicle, a company issued notebook running Windows XP, and no stock options. All of our servers are named based on an established IBM numbering system. I get to work from home a bit more but that's only because I commute 4 hours a day.

Sure, this gig pays more, but the work environment is not nearly the same. There's no heady optimism about the future, and that, really, when you think about it, the collapse of the dot net boom and worse, the later ruling about expensing stock options, and then the war, this decade has been utterly depressing.

Re:It's not THAT good yet... (5, Insightful)

Kainaw (676073) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730067)

There's no heady optimism about the future, and that, really, when you think about it, the collapse of the dot net boom and worse, the later ruling about expensing stock options, and then the war, this decade has been utterly depressing.

In my opinion, it all depends on perspective. During the dot-com boom, I was sitting on a stool in a tiny backroom doing electronic repairs on video equipment. To make ends meet, I spent all my free time going house-to-house doing computer repairs. Somehow, I found time to take college classes and get my B.S. in Computer Science. The entire time, I was continually told that I needed to move to California and get in on the big paychecks. Now, I have a nice office at the top of one of the tallest buildings in town, looking across the city and into the bay. I work pretty much when I want to - as long as the work is done, nobody complains. I make enough that my wife doesn't have to work and she can stay at home and raise our son. I don't work evenings or weekends. I'm still taking classes here and there to get my PhD. For me, there is optimism.

Re:It's not THAT good yet... (1)

epiphani (254981) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730401)

I dont know. I worked for a dot-com back in 2000, and I was bored and slacked off a lot. They wasted huge amounts of money - but it was fun for me. Not very fun for our investors, I bet.

Now I work for a larger company, but I still wear shorts, sandals and a t-shirt in. I get paid well but not excessively. My hours are flexible an hour or two in either direction, and we get free breakfast on fridays.

My work is far more interesting, more challenging, and my management is technically competent and not overbearing. I have found that, at least in immediate area, that the level of clue has gone up substantially. Half of my team dropped out of either highschool or university - the others have done post-grad.

We don't hire unless we absolutely need to - there is work to go around but we're not buried and not bored.

It might be that I am lucky to be managed by incredibly good managers, but all in all I think I got the best of both worlds in the post-dotcom crapout - relaxed atmosphere, interesting work, and real profit and impact out of my work.

Re:It's not THAT good yet... (1)

router (28432) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730423)

About those server names, I _like_ that there is a standard. I always chuckle when I think of the University/.com naming standard (Tolkien/anime chars, flowers, etc). Can you imagine running an outage call? Ayukawa is up, Hikaru is down, Kyosuke can't figure out which one to send the requests to and Komatsu and Hatta are still load balancing requests?
Actually, that is pretty cool, now that I think about it...*cackle* Wouldn't sound very "business" tho.


I still do good (1, Insightful)

Saint Stephen (19450) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730007)

I can get as much done as 20 Indian outsourcers. They let me work from home.

Re:I still do good (3, Insightful)

stonecypher (118140) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730209)

And when you start costing 30x as much, suddenly you'll be able to out-do 35 of them, right?

One thing I've learned is that when someone starts saying they're better than programmers from (insert country here,) they're just trying to tell me either that they've never worked with programmers from that country, or that they have wildly inflated notions of self worth. I'm curious: given that among 20 programmers you'll have two or three successfully completed large projects, where are your fourty to sixty? ... or, hell, even just where's your one big project? Anything? I mean, if you're worth 20 of them, surely you have something to show for all that enormous skill?

When you have some numbers to back up that you're actually worth 20 of them, let us know; until then, it's hollow dishonest bragging. The only people you're impressing are other people like you.

Depends on the place (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730011)

I started working at my job last November and it's the best job I've ever had. I get paid about 36k, full health/dental insurance paid for by the company (about $300 a month out of their pocket), occasional tickets to local sporting events, 2 weeks vacation 1 week sick, plus they are pretty lax. If you need to leave work to do something just go, and make up the hours at your discretion. Plus they keep the kitchen completely stocked with various foods from snacks and cereal to heartier foods all free, including a nice selection of soda's and drinks (saves having to buy lunch every day). Then we have bagel Friday every week, where the boss buys a couple boxes of assorted bagels from Panera bread.

With the relaxed atmosphere we're very productive because people are just happy to work here.

Deloitte ?? (1)

sgholt (973993) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730049)

Deloitte has been involved with the re-write of the Texas Health and Human Services eligibility software for the last 3 years. They were fired early on for software that did not work...the new developers have not repaired the software and are losing their contract in November. Guess who has been rehired? Deloitte.
A shortage of talent was Deloitte's biggest problem and I expect it still is...with companies like Deloitte out there you can be assured that the there will be another crash.

Sorry this is a rant against a company that is making my life hell...don't hire Deloitte if you want to succeed!

Re:Deloitte ?? (2, Funny)

otacon (445694) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730187)

I dunno... we had Deloitte consultants come in before, and the one girl was really hot. I don't know why they were here or what they did but I don't think it matters.

Re:Deloitte ?? (1)

Envy Life (993972) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730577)

I dunno... we had Deloitte consultants come in before, and the one girl was really hot. I don't know why they were here or what they did but I don't think it matters.
Couldn't have described it better myself! That's what you get with the big consulting firms... the good looking people making the big bucks, talking a big game and producing little, very slowly.

Re:Deloitte ?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730237)

My condolences. No need to be sorry for your rant. I used to refer to them as Toilet and Douche.

Laid back work environment, eh? (5, Funny)

Skee09 (987325) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730081)

Goodbye, pants!

You can keep your bean-bags (3, Informative)

IndieKid (1061106) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730091)

I've been working in IT since just after the bubble burst (I graduated in CompSci mid-2003 and joined a corporate graduate scheme at a time when you were grateful for any IT job at all) and to be honest the corporations can keep their bean-bags, I'd just like my salary to be brought in line with those who survived the crash and are still on incredibly inflated salaries.

Here in London, a web expert (read: someone who knows a bit of HTML/CSS/Javascript and has been working in IT since around 2000) can easily be on £60k-£70k, which equates to $120k-$140k, as a result of being in the right place at the right time during the last boom. Someone just starting out in the profession with the same skills would have been lucky to get £25k after a couple of years experience until recently. The recent Web 2.0 boom and a shortage of people with the right skills means that the salary gap is now closing, which is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Re:You can keep your bean-bags (1)

IndieKid (1061106) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730189)

Apologies, just realised the article was talking about AUS$ not US$, so my salary comparisons aren't quite right. It should be AUS$140k - AUS$165k.

Re:You can keep your bean-bags (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730495)

So, in a nutshell, you're saying that people out of college for just a couple of years should be making the same salary as those who have been working for nearly a decade? I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

I was originally hired in at a dot com, have been working ever since, and I know a crapton more today than I did 9 years ago. My code today is 10x better than it was 3 years ago when I had 5 years experience. At 5 years, it was better than when I was a newbie with 2 years.

Experience counts for everything, and you only gain that over time.

If there's a shortage (5, Insightful)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730095)

Then there will be a corresponding increase in salaries to attract good employees... Which strangely hasn't happened, so it can't be much of a shortage.


Re:If there's a shortage (1)

jshriverWVU (810740) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730533)

Then there will be a corresponding increase in salaries to attract good employees

not really, if there is more work to be done, more grunts get hired to do the work. Grunt == India. You dont think a farm owner hires a 6'5 300lb muscle machine to work at 2x the norm, he'll more than likely hire 20 immigrants at minimum wage.

Linus is right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730101)

I am with Linus on this one

My first professional full time web gig (1)

dbmasters (796248) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730109)

Was at a rising star in the .com market, we all dressed casual, company parties were beer bashes, people were over-paid, schedules were relaxed, it was great, I was stoked with my career choice. Then the bubble burst, I was laid off, ended up consulting at various stuffy corporate entities that one could barely laugh without the PC police finding you, dressing in business/business casual with rigid hourly requirements, bosses expecting you to work late/weekend to fix their lack of planning/understanding problems...that sucked ass... It seems jobs are ripe for the taking again, and I am now pretty happy working at a middle of the road cultured place, business casual, relaxed schedule, decent pay and fun people...not everything, but at least something I don't dread going to every day, which is nice.

Bah (5, Insightful)

Renraku (518261) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730111)

"They were going to have to learn to dress, communicate, and adapt all the traditional corporate ideals that IT has been exempt from during the dot-com boom."

IT was never exempt from communication, as IT is all ABOUT communication. Learning to dress usually means adhering to an arbitarily strict dress code that interferes with the nature of IT work to begin with. Ever try to set up a work station while wearing a suit and tie or something similar? You end up fighting your clothes more than the probelm at hand.

And corporate ideals aren't exactly something that I feel good about taking part in. Corporate ideals, for the most part, are trying to figure out how to save the company millions while keeping your mouth shut about anything shady the higher ups are doing. If we went by what people do rather than say, most corporate ideals could be summarized as 'looking for the golden parachute' or 'going to the company picnic to weasel my way into a promotion'.

There's a good reason the dot com companies didn't adhere to most of these. One, if you're working with an open minded crew, dress code doesn't matter aside from a few very basic rules. Two, ideals mean NOTHING if they aren't followed. You can bitch about how its all for the workers all you want, but when you give yourself a nice fat bonus over your workers, all of that just went out the window.

I call it breaking tradition. Tradition is you sit down, shut up, and do your job and whatever else they can trick you into doing. You're to dress up like good little sheeple and make sure not to look any of the higher ups in the eye.

IT people by nature are used to being different. They're used to thinking for themselves, because its probably the only reason they've survived into the IT field far enough to be employed for it. We aren't used to keeping our mouths closed while being treated like shit, or putting on four layers of expensive clothes just to dirty them up by rewiring the networking cabinet.

I wish it could be a wakeup call for all jobs that don't deal with customers/clients face-to-face. Just because the person processing your invoices is wearing a suit and tie doesn't mean he isn't forwarding your account information to his shady cousin. Nor does it mean he isn't talking smack about his co-workers or fantasizing about the new girl down in Advertising. All it means is he's wearing a suit beacuse someone made a policy saying that he had to.

It doesn't even look better than business-casual.

Re:Bah (2, Insightful)

cowscows (103644) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730381)

Don't pretend that geeks are somehow special in a way that no one else ever was. Your average early twenties liberal arts major is no more interested in dressing up in a suit and a tie every day than you are, it's just that by that age, most people have realized that for better or worse the world works in particular ways, and while you can try and fight it, some fights really aren't worth the struggle. That doesn't mean that everyone who's willing to wear a nice pair of pants to work is some roll-over drone happy to give up their humanity for a paycheck, it means they've got other priorities and realize that wearing a shirt with buttons on it is not some callous insult against their soul.

IT nerds found themselves temporarily immune to such things due to the explosive growth of computers/networking/etc. in the business world, and the seemingly magic nature of the internet and all of that. But those days were a fluke, they're mostly over. The good news is that, in general, there seems to be a slow shift towards more casual dress in a lot of places. I work downtown in a decent sized city, and I see way more people without ties than with. But I respect my employer, my coworkers, and our clients enough to dress better than than I would going to see a movie with my friends. It's not a hard thing to do, it's not even expensive.

Re:Bah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730583)

You haven't been to Austin, TX in say, the last 15 years or so, have you?

where? (1)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730119)

Where are these high-paying IT jobs with fun working conditions?

Is it still the case that every job offering in IT requires "minimum 15 years AJAX experience" (or something equally stupid) as was the case when I graduated a few years ago?

Arrrggg....Web 2.0 NOT Again!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730143)

RTFA |...And that's if you had the cash to buy a few as many found themselves out of a job, their salary was on freeze, or had to take jobs at half the pay of what they were demanding during the boom. ...|

That aint the half of it!!!

What 7/24/365 hours with matching pager or cell phone, Machine Gunners from Russia turned program management, Trombonist turn program coders, India and Chinese L1-B Visas granted like leaves dropping from the sky in fall and salaries to match. Anyone who is going into collage as a CS Student or a Electronic Engineer doesn't have a freaking clue. Save yourself the grief, be a shoe salesman and save yourself from Chronic Hypertension and various other disorders.

IT (2, Insightful)

gullevek (174152) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730159)

the blue collar workers nowadays. In the old days it were only coal miners, poor factory workers. But nowadays its the IT too. Not very high pay, long working hours. Very seperate sitting place, never included in most normal activities. Always stick together, etc etc.

I think going into IT was the worst decision I could have ever made.

Re:IT (2, Interesting)

bytesex (112972) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730351)

More like those little engineering companies that do various odd jobs for whoever pays them. I used to work at one of those - long before I was an IT person; blue collar & jeans, roll-up cigarettes and smelling of the soldering iron, paint, welding and metal greese. Sorry, but I stacked a prepared batch of whatever-they-do-boxes on your desk today. Got a few bits of electronic wire sticking out of a breast pocket somewhere. Got calender girls on the wall. Only men work here.

Contrast with today, as an IT person, I work for an all out IT company, only men, blue collar, jeans. Cigarettes have been outlawed, but somebody is still using that soldering iron. And a compressor. Got a USB stick hanging around me somewhere. Got transformer logos on the wall. Only men work here. We work for whoever pays us. What's changed ?

Re:IT (-1, Troll)

killclooney (695501) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730433)

What a whiney little bitch. Serious, grow a spine and get back to coding...

We wont get fooled again... (4, Interesting)

grapeape (137008) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730161)

The reason there is a shortage is that those who were burned the first time wont go back and those that haven't been burned yet have been forewarned by those that have. Very few outside the upper echelons of the .com companies of the 90's saw any real benefit from the .com era the vast majority got hosed. Empty promises, foosball and free juice worked the first time but I can't see many falling for it again. Everyone I worked with in my two experiences with the .com era have moved out of the corporate world and are either with small companies or working as consultants, a few have left the field entirely.

I recently received a call from the Recruiter that hired me on to my last corporate job. I was told the company I was laid off from was looking to hire me back. I told me the whole dog and pony show was starting back up, that the culture had changed and this time would be different and this time it wouldn't be a complete waste of five years of my life. I thought about it for five seconds and told her that I would just as soon bathe in hot lava than go back. She sounded a little upset, and proceeded to tell me that so far she was 0-12 in trying to lure back the folks I worked with. Guess I wasn't alone.

It all started when (1)

genner (694963) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730165)

Managers realized we would take a pay cut for the honor of wearing a tshirt and jeans to work.
Not that I'm complaining.....totally worth it.

Oh PLEASE GOD NO (5, Insightful)

eno2001 (527078) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730169)

If there's one thing that bothered me about the dot-com culture, it was all the wasted money on crap like foosball tables. I don't like corporate culture either, but for god's sake people have some perspective and MODERATE! Here are some plain truths that few people want to admit to:

1. Someone who actually knows what they're doing when it comes to computers is not a business person or an executive. A lot of people who dream about jobs in the technology sector always imagine that it somehow leads to the top of the glass tower and a corner office. It doesn't and it shouldn't. If you want that and you have middling to poor technical skills, then you're not cut out for technology. Instead you should go straight for that MBA now. Sure, there's the very rare and occasional individual who is very good with computers and also has business acumen, but you really have to look far and wide to find these strange hybrids. Most business people just aren't that good at computers other than using Office, maybe some SQL and that's about it. (This is not meant to insult anyone BTW)

2. A good software developer writes applications that are meant to be run as binaries. Sorry web folks, you're not software developers. At the very best, you are WEB application developers. At worst, you're still coding static HTML pages and trying to get that six figure job. Yes, web developers are necessary. Yes, web developers are quite talented. But web developers are rarely well versed in C or C++. However, many web developers have a leg up on software developers in the visual department though. Not always, but more often than not.

3. Everything I said about the web developers above? It all applies in reverse to the software developers. As always, there are some exceptions, but they are rare. Software developers should typically not try to write web applications. At best, you'll wind up re-inventing something some other web developer has already done that's ten times better. At worst, you'll wind up with some ugly monstrosity of a web page that isn't user friendly and while the backend might be super efficient, it won't actually do a lot. Stick to software development, it's a different creature altogether. If you are dead set on becoming a web developer, then try REALLY hard NOT to bring much of what you know about UI design (which tends to be little) to the web app side. Remember that the web is primarily a visual medium, including the text. It has to look at least as good as it works.

4. Microsoft based developers are totally different animal. A lot of you are quite talented within your own realm and can whip up some fantastic stuff much faster than your Java and Unix based C using counterparts in terms of look and feel and reusable objects. (The only possible exception being the QT/KDE folks in Unix land) And the subsets of development apply to you as well. There are those of you who develop web apps and those of you who develop applications for use on the desktop. Once again, it's a rare person who can cross those boundaries and do well on both sides. So stick to your side of the development space, unless you want to make a major career change and can actually let go of what you know and take on a totally different mindset.

5. IT computer and network admins are also not executive or "office" positions. A lot of people seem to think that working in IT means a clean office, and you get to wear suits or at the very least business casual. You're wrong. Computer and network admins tend to be the grunts who crawl under desks in a lot of small to medium sized businesses. If you happen to be lucky enough to work in a large or global business, then it's possible that your position will be considered close to but not quite "suit"-ish. Again, if that's what you want, you're better off focusing on the MBA with a minor in CS.

But the bottom line here is that people who really know what they're doing with computers are rarely business people. They are rarely cut out to function within corporate culture. Anyone who enters into the tech sector should have a damn good idea why you're doing it. If the answer is, "to make a lot of money", then you're mistaken. If the answer is, "power and prestige", dream on. If the answer is, "to help people with their computer problems and hopefully allow them to have a good experience", then welcome aboard. Computers are awesome machines that are capable of doing a lot of things. And the general population really should be indoctrinated in just how flexible these machines are.

Businesses that try to lure "talent" in with artificially high salaries, and amenities more suited to a college dorm are not going to get the best talent. They're going to get slackers. If you want the real talent, then you need to present yourself as a business with some very interesting technical challenges. Ideally, they should be challenges that no one else has tackled yet, and still relate to your business. Then, and only then, may we avoid the disaster that the dot-com era was.

1999 called (1)

beavis88 (25983) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730323)

They want you to know that points 2 and 3 won't be valid in a couple more years, unless you insist on writing web apps with 1999 technology.

Re:Oh PLEASE GOD NO (2, Informative)

RetroRichie (259581) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730461)

you really have to look far and wide to find these strange hybrids

I am one of said strange hybrids, and am seemingly doomed to a life of consulting and air travel. Not really the corner office I've dreamed of.


bishiraver (707931) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730473)

"A good software developer writes applications that are meant to be run as binaries." 2.0 is compiled ;) Application: a program that gives a computer instructions that provide the user with tools to accomplish a task That sounds a lot like a web application (and desktop application). It's tough to get a job outside the online direct marketing industry if you don't have experience developing in a server side language:, java, php, RoR - and sometimes more than one of those. HTML/CSS codemonkeys aren't developers to be sure - but if you knew what went into building a successful business-to-business (or business-to-customer) web application (not, say, or whatever that thinks it's going to make money off of giving people dogs for free) you wouldn't really say that. You sound like a dinosaur that's complaining because his field is expanding into new arenas.

"Golden Age" of Web 2.0? (1)

jg21 (677801) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730171)

All travelers are prone to over-estimate the promise and potential of what is merely new to them.

It is said that the first men to visit America believed that they had accidentally found Paradise, a second Garden of Eden. In the narrative of his third voyage, for example, Christopher Columbus wrote: 'For I believe that the earthly Paradise lies here,' and fifty years later the French essayist Michel de Montaigne was even more effusive: "In my opinion what we actually see in these nations surpasses all the pictures which the poets have drawn of the Golden Age..."

The guy who gave up $40K p.a. to go to Google is no different. And heck, maybe Web 2.0 even *is* going to be golden...for him and for many others too.

As an engineer (3, Insightful)

minorproblem (891991) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730183)

I am not an IT person but an electrical engineer and all I can say is why would you care about beanbags and pinball machines? It is more about the attitude of the people you are working with as well as the company. I would rather work hard, enjoy my work and come off with some sense of achievement than dick around all day.

Re:As an engineer (1)

genner (694963) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730223)

I would rather work hard, enjoy my work and come off with some sense of achievement than dick around all day.
I am not an IT person

Looks like you answered you own question.

Definition of irony (1)

Weaselmancer (533834) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730613)

I would rather work hard, enjoy my work and come off with some sense of achievement than dick around all day.

You posted this on Slashdot, at 10:15 AM.

On a more serious note - IMHO, dicking around is important to being an engineer. I can't work a problem unless I see the whole thing. Sometimes I just don't see it, and can't work until I do. And that means sitting around staring out windows for hours on end. Or posting on Slashdot. It doesn't look like work, but it is.

If foosball centers you and takes you to the place where you find your answers - go play foosball. Anything that produces a net gain at the end of the day is worth doing.

Geeks are under-appreciated. (1)

TWDsje (1095947) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730203)

I say that it's about time I got some just compensation the hard work of being a geek. It's not easy you know! If they really want geeks to work for them they should provide women co-workers in the workplace along with the beanbags and videogames.

The comming screw (5, Insightful)

Anon-Admin (443764) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730229)

Lets face it, many of the IT people were burned during the dot com bust (I still think it was the Y2K bust more than dot com's) We have grown and learned from our mistakes. Many of us have learned how business works, where things can go wrong, and just how the system works. Now it is our turn ;)

I know I have a list.

#1) Do not take options in place of pay.
#2) Do not accept the 50% of your salary now and 50% based on a bonus when the company is profitable.
#3) Do not accept titles in place of raises. Titles are useless.
#4) Make sure the company has a business plan, funding, and a clear way to become profitable.
#5) If something smells funny in accounting, RUN!!! ( If we pay you 45% of your pay as an employee, 40% as a 1099 contractor, 10% in stock options, and 5% in cash, you get to keep more of your money. Or my favorite your pay is $93,000 and your first check comes in and the math only comes up to $85,000. When you ask you find that it is $93,000 - ($1788*3 weeks vacation) - ($1788x 1 week sick leave) In other words, they are not paying for your vacation or time off but offered it when you were hired. )
#6) Do not work more than 55 hours a week unless they are paying overtime.
#7) Document EVERYTHING! Every offer they make needs to be in writing, every promise, everything.
#8) If you want it, negotiate it when being hired!

Any one want to add to this list?

Re:The comming screw (2, Interesting)

sedman (210394) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730437)

#3) Do not accept titles in place of raises. Titles are useless.

While I agree with most of your list and mostly agree with the above statement (the in place of raises part). I can't agree that titles are useless (even they they should be). Turns out when I was called a Senior Network Administrator, I could not get people to return my calls. Once they started calling me the Network Services Manager (same pay, same job...) I started being able to get information and sales people would respond with yes sir this and yes sir that.

Loyalty (3, Insightful)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730469)

Is paid for in cash.


Re:The comming screw (2, Interesting)

91degrees (207121) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730499)

#1) Do not take options in place of pay.

Worked for Microsoft employees in the 80's. It's a gamble. Consider how promising their business plan appears to be. The 80's was a fast growth time for software with clear income source (selling copies of software). The income source for the dotcoms was less obvious.

#6) Do not work more than 55 hours a week unless they are paying overtime.

I'd say it's more a case of don't make a habit of working over 40 hours.

Apart from those, that's all good advice.

As a person who thinks for a living... (2, Insightful)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730249)

What I wear is the least of my [and my employers] worries. I show up, work a mostly honest full day, and get results. All that matters. How I'm dressed, how many free sodas are in the fridge, etc, shouldn't matter.

And honestly, there is nothing wrong with perks at the office. You spend 1/3rd of your day there, might as well be a place you feel comfortable and can relax when need to.

Wish my office had an air hockey table :-)


free men (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730279)

I don't understand why more people do not create solutions at home on their own time and sell/license the work to the companies they work for? If they won't buy they will have to pay you to re-create onsite. When they need some software or solutuion you could offer your work at a price seperate from your salery (no payroll taxes!) and there is nothing wrong with this nor is it adversarial. The truth is "geeks" have a lot of valuble knowledge in their head and these comanies need to figure out a way to make you give it up; cheaply of course. Back in the 90's I was 19yrs old making more than most people in the company (I saw the payroll tables) some of which had 10, 15, 20 years of service to this non-profit and were department supervisors. I just hung out and helped people figure out how to do mail-merges in Word. When I wasn't helping some incometent meander through Word I was at the mall or on the town getting high. Aahh! the 90's

HTML and JavaScript "jockeys" (4, Insightful)

suv4x4 (956391) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730309)

and developers aren't getting paid $100K for being HTML and JavaScript jockeys

Yes, now they're being paid $100K for being HTML and CSS and JavaScript jockeys. What a huge difference.

I hope the author recognizes the differences between a taxi cab driver and F1 driver. Because HTML/JS has low entry bar doesn't mean you can pay 50 bucks to a random college kid and have Google maps with draggable/adaptable routes in a week.

What's the point? (1)

Ryn (9728) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730313)

Granted, I've never worked in the true dot-com environment...ok, we did have a foosball table but it kept getting moved because people who were working through lunch kept complaining, but why is this still important to people? Maybe I'm just a cynical old fart ( 28?), but I'd much rather have:
1. Better salary.
2. Better defined work hours.
3. No perks like pizza fridays, wearing jeans to work (which I still do) and free soda.

rather than:
1. Lower salary.
2. Work all day.
3. But we got great perks! It's free pizza friday, so you can stay and work until 8pm!

Seriously, why does anyone who has ever worked in on at least 1 corporate job still fall for this?

How I survived (1) (745855) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730367)

I survived the Dot Com Bust very well, thank you. Here's what I did:

1) I only worked for Cash, not Options.

2) Keep good developers, not wanna-bees. Fire the rest, or move to a different department. If you can't do that, put them on projects that can't derail the important tasks.

3) Learn the core business you're dealing with, not just the code.

4) Ask how they plan to make money. Really. Ask. Ask the President, the VC's, everyone. If you don't like the answer, give them less of your time.

5) Stay independent. Be a contractor for several organizations. If one gets hurt, you have multiple revenue streams.

6) After things crash, companies will try to fire whole departements, not realizing until it is too late that their function is core to the business. Step in to cover the work as needed.

7) Profit.

Dot-Com Culture -- it never left (1)

BadERA (107121) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730409)

I'm a software engineer in his late 20s who got an early start in his career during the dotcom boom. I've worked or consulted for Global Crossing, IBM, Xerox (two different contracts, two different periods, two different CEOs), Gannett, a major vision care provider, as well as a number of statups and small businesses. In 98, 99, 2000, the tech places were lax. The startups were lax. The small businesses were lax -- I know guys who slept on the couch and wore the same clothes for most of the week ... or month. IBM, however, was still a ball-buster -- shirt and tie. Xerox (non-software department, but software job) was biz-casual. Global Crossing, fairly casual, though not quite as much as the two prior.

Then of course the dot com bomb and 9/11 roll through. After consulting for a small business, I ended up at Gannett -- biz casual. After a few years there, I worked a contract at Xerox for the Software Development Infrastructure team, part of Xerox Office Services - Global Services. T-shirts and jeans were practically the rule. Some people needed to wear ... more, or larger, clothing -- plenty of fat hairy geek belly button on display in some dark corners. I now work for a major US vision care provider ... I was interviewed by, among others, a guy in a raggedy t-shirt and shorts, sporting a few tattoos. Some days, they want us wearing a shirt and tie if there's an on-site customer or potential customer visit. Most of the time, it's biz-casual (no jeans, except for Fridays) and summers, it's super biz casual -- jeans and t-shirts OK.

Here in upstate NY, I don't see a lot of change in the culture over the past eight years or so. When it comes to clothes, hair, piercings, tattoos, big companies tend to be stiffer, more conservative. Smaller companies tend to be more relaxed. It's simply the nature of the beast.

JavaScript, etc. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#19730421)

while workplaces aren't as cheesy with their decor as they were were in the late '90s, and developers aren't getting paid $100K for being HTML and JavaScript jockeys

Its worth noting that, unlike during the late '90's, a lot of "real" (or far more complex) programming/scripting is now taking place within JavaScript. With AJAX/Web 2.0 (yes, I hate these terms also), much of the user interface work now lives within the JavaScript. Also, there's been a bit of inflation since then -- just look at real estate prices.

Shirt and Tie for IT is stupid (1)

LordZardoz (155141) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730455)

As a general matter of principle, I really do not see how it would matter if the employees in your 'geek pit' wear a tie or not. If they are not seen by clients or customers, then what does it really matter?

The excesses of the dot com boom were a result of companies spending money on things that did not really help (like expensive Aeron chairs that they did not really need). As the capitolists among us will happily point out, if this is a bad idea, the company will pay for it in the end.


There's more to a career than "work culture" (1)

admiralh (21771) | more than 7 years ago | (#19730465)

The big reason for this so-called "shortage" is that there is no real career path and no job security for computer programmers.

When you throw out a programmer when he's 35-40, and he can't find a job in the industry, what kind of incentive is there to spend 5 or more years of your life preparing for such a career?
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