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This will only hurt (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474059)

This will only hurt Java developers in the end. Without standardization there is no protability, making everybody's life harder.

Java will splinter sooner. (0)

midh (33638) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474065)

Sun is doing what MS does. This is bas news for developers. Soon, IBM and HP will develop their own versions and maybe then Sun will sit down and talk.

Way to undermine the language.. (3)

Thomas Charron (1485) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474072)

That's one way give a good uppercut to developers who are trusting you. So now Sun completely controls Java. They're reneged on their promises now that developers have put alot of time and effort into Java, because they believed in it, and they believed Sun was making their best effort to move it to a standardized base, and do things for the good of Java, which, in the end, is for the good of then.

Suddenly, *WHAM*. We need to protect our investment.

Goodbye good 'ole Sun, HELLO Microsoft II.

Did anyone NOT see this coming? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474073)

Really. The initial submission was to benefit Sun's case of bastardizing the language by Microsoft and to take away some of the heat from the community for Sun apparently doing whatever the hell they want to the Java core libraries.

"Look! we're trying to make this a standard and they're messing it up... boooooo hooooooo..... We need a preliminary injunction... wahhh haaaa!"

Aww they thought they were a monopoly (0)

I Hate Myself (118516) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474170)

AFAIC, Java has no integrity. I have yet to see anything worthwhile written in it, and after reading this, I doubt I ever will.

No Surprise... (1)

The Babushka (44270) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474174)

My favorite is the McNealy quote...

"The problem with standards bodies is... They can be very political and they need money to run and they have to listen to their constituents, which change over time."

What a bunch of transparent crap. (0)

slashdot-terminal (83882) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474178)

Look at the recent false story at slashdot to give away J++ to another company. It appears that Sun wants to add more goodies to it before it is set in stone. Might make things more interesting but could allow Microsoft to destroy that language through the typical embrace and extent mentality.

Did they jump, or were they pushed? (1)

Glytch (4881) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474182)

Does the European Computer Manufacturers' Association dislike Java, or does Sun just not like the ECMA? Having never heard of the ECMA before, I'm curious how much control they have over international standards.

By the way, I hate Java. But that's beside the point.

Java Standard (1)

PatDunn (23264) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474188)

My question would be is any other programming language besides Javascript part of ECMA?
VBscript I do believe stands on it's own and I think Java should too.

Many companies have been using it for a few years now and I don't believe this will change much of anything except in the minds of some programmers. There was an interesting piece in PC Week (this week's issue) about Java and the standards process.

My $.02 right or wrong.

copyrights? (2)

JohnG (93975) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474194)

I don't really understand the article, it said that Sun would have to abdicate their copyrights. Is that right or am I reading it wrong? You can't hardly blame sun for wanting to keep the copyrights to their work. Like the article said, there is a de facto standard, do we really need an official governing body maintaining the standards.
Take Mesa for example, it has not passed any OpenGL standards and aside from not being able to call itself OpenGL it works fine as a replacement to OpenGL. The problem lies when companies like Microsoft begin to "enhance" the platform, but Sun already sued MS's arses for that so not to many people are likely to try it again.

Re:More power to them (1)

Thomas Charron (1485) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474195)

International Standardization has NOTHING to do with Open Source. It says anything named Java has to stick to these set of standards.

Imagine if every C compiler treated chars differently.. And some called them characters, others called them strings, and yet another called them something different.

Independent Standards (2)

drudd (43032) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474200)

I think Java could only be helped by removing it from Sun's control.

The difficulty with any language or standard which is controlled solely by a corporation which stands to profit from its control is that the company will naturally move to protect its control.

Other companies (Microsoft!) will move to undermine control or use of that standard, regardless of technical merit.

This only undermines the advance in computing technology as major corporations fight over market share rather than promoting the best tools available.


Re:Way to undermine the language.. (1)

slashdot-terminal (83882) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474202)

That's one way give a good uppercut to developers who are trusting you. So now Sun completely controls Java. They're reneged on their promises now that developers have put alot of time and effort into Java, because they believed
in it, and they believed Sun was making their best effort to move it to a standardized base, and do things for the good of Java, which, in the end, is for the good of then.

Suddenly, *WHAM*. We need to protect our investment.

Goodbye good 'ole Sun, HELLO Microsoft II.

Big critical difference here. Microsoft loathes linux and any other OS with a passion. At least the JDK is avaible on a wider range of OS choices than DirectX or anything else that MS creates.

Protect my ass (2)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474218)

Sun wants to control the market as much as Microsoft does and their Java strategy has been vague and lacking direction. Every java VM has its little quirks which render the most important advertised feature of the language -- its ability to run on any platform after the code's been compiled -- worthless.

You'd be better off with perl or scheme in your search for a portable language. I'm hoping someone embeds a Perl interpreter in Mozilla at some point. I'd take that over Java any day.

Question: *how* bad is this for users? (1)

Reinout (4282) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474221)

Hello all,

My section at the university is developing most of it's stuff in java. A good, stable, widely-accepted version of java seems to me to be of extreme importance.

Could anyone give me some insight in the badness of this move by sun for the users of the language. Will IBM save us? Is the language doomed? Please tell me.


Way to go SUNW! Standardized bodies killed c++ (1)

stergios (72697) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474225)

Excellent move on Suns part. The second you let those kind of wining complainer types that love to sit on governing bodies is when you can start to dig a grave for the language. Go SUNW! It will hit 100 by year end.

Re:Way to undermine the language.. (2)

Thomas Charron (1485) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474228)

Oh yes, the JDK is *SO* available for Linux. Lesse, it's been nearly 6 YEARS since the original JDK came out, and *hopefully* by next week we'll finally have an official JVM from sun for the platform..

Re:Way to undermine the language.. (5)

pmancini (20121) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474231)

Sun has always been Microsoft II. I have always felt that the words coming out of McNealy's mouth have been quite disturbing for some time. He is not interested in destroying Microsoft, he is interested in taking Bill Gates' place. For what it's worth, RMS has been advocating people not use Java for quite some time. His fears are now being realized. I tend to agree with the assessment that unlike just about every other computer language on the planet - Java is the only one that is proprietary. Imagine the ruckus if C/C++ remained an AT&T commodity after years of promising to make it "free".

Sun scares me, it should scare you too.

Is Sun Any better than MS? (1)

JamesSharman (91225) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474232)

I know lots of people will flame me for saying this, but a man needs to say what he feels needs to be said. Sun is more than capable of acting just like a corporate spoilt brat as Microsoft is. The last few years has seen Sun pushing the hardsell on the computer industry about the benefits of java by it liberateing us from MS control, however unlikely a proposition this looks today. The problem here is that when salvation from MS finaly comes do we want the replacement to be just as bad.

I'm having flash backs to "Animal Farm" here (not that one you perverts! the G.Orwell book), it's a really gnarly political satire look at the rusian revolution and how it basicly changed nothing in the long term.

Vive le revolution!

Re:This will only hurt (1)

Forty-two (40787) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474237)

Its not that there is no standard to java, there is. All that this is saying (I think) is that they won't give up copywrites to Java just to have a organisation label them as a standard. This is different from them actually being a standard or not and I think that Sun controling Java is a safe bet that they will stick to a Java standard since one of the only things that Java has going for it is that is it cross-platform. If you have ever programmed in java you will know that it is not a very FAST language. In fact it is one of the slowest that I have seen. The reason that Java is popular is that you can write the code once and then you can run it on any platform (Which has a Java VM. but that is a different post :) )

Re:Independent Standards (1)

slashdot-terminal (83882) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474239)

I think Java could only be helped by removing it from Sun's control.

And give it to whom? I have never heard of a language standard which was totally open source. The closest thing that get there is that wonderful godsend perl.

The difficulty with any language or standard which is controlled solely by a corporation which stands to profit from its control is that the company will naturally move to protect its control.

Well if they spend millions on the development they most likely feel that people should listen to such a person. They are feeling frightened about the prospect of having something like Visual J-- control the market and make the creators poorer than church mice.

Other companies (Microsoft!) will move to undermine control or use of that standard, regardless of technical merit.

That is the danger of Sun giving up it's control over the details because that will allow major competitors to take up the gauntlet and make it their little baby.

This only undermines the advance in computing technology as major corporations fight over market share rather than promoting the best tools available.

Well if Java is your cup of tea then go for it. What sun is trying to do it save their creation from the jowls of Microsoft. Do you just want another Visual Basic?

Re:Protect my ass (1)

Thomas Charron (1485) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474241)

It's funny that this is just happening now that Microsoft is backing AWAY from Java. It was WAY to easy for them to declare Java as an open alternative to anything Microsoft had when they needed the defend themselves..

I feel flipped off..

Java to stand on its own? (3)

Rick Razzano (76194) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474243)

According to the article Sun thinks Java can stand on its own. In other words, Sun is saying "We don't need you anymore; we write our own ticket from now on" to ECMA.

They seem to be saying "we don't need you-you need us" to developers too (SCSL?). They might have been better off not portraying themselves as the knight in shining armor, then abandoning that role once it had any disadvantages (at least short-term). At least with Microsoft, developers have no illusions about motive; you know what you get there.

There may be a lot of scorned developers out there who react like they have been betrayed by Sun. If that happens, we will find out if Sun "doesn't need you anymore."

,,, (3)

Signail11 (123143) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474248)

This will hurt Java in the short-term since it will be more difficult to develope code that will be portable to [the now non-existent] Java 2 standardized platform. However, I don't think that this will negatively affect the Java language itself in the long run. Java as a language will live or die on its own merits, of which I believe that it has many. It is a type-safe language built from the ground up to support OOP. For thirty years, C has withstood the test of time despite not _ever_ having a standard platform; the same assessment applies to C++ as well. A careful programmer can exploit the benefits of the language while mantaining portability and efficiency using the same methods that he/she have always used. Sun's decision will probably help Java in the end because of this.

Flames? Think I'm a karma whore?

Closed apps? maybe. Closed tools? NEVER (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474251)

Letting another company have complete control of your development tools is quite unwise. Sun has an axe to grind, and a grudge to settle (M$). They will take Java wherever it needs to go in order to settle this grudge.

Currently, Java developers have no protection against this.

Let's go standard shopping (5)

Alan Shutko (5101) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474255)

It looks to me like Sun is looking for a standards body who will put their name behind Java, while letting Sun handle the actual "standardization" process. Unsuprisingly, they're not finding a body to do this.

So, who's left? I seem to recall they've already tried ISO, they've tried ECMA, and they're sure to get the same reception with the IETF.

Addendum, not found on ZDNet (5)

Cironian (9526) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474256)

This [] article (in german) tells us that "the head of technical commitee 41, Michael Wheatley (IBM), possibly wants to continue with the standardization of Java even without Sun's support.

Maybe SUN should put Java on (1)

cbraescu (59168) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474261)

Hey, I am serious about this. If what they want is a living product should be one of their wisest options. But AFAIK SUNT don't think any more Open-Source than MS. Too bad for them, too bad for our community, too bad for Java itself.

Re:Did they jump, or were they pushed? (1)

Gelf (57371) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474264)

Javascript 1.3 is compliant with ECMA-262 (now also ISO-16262). The standard calls it ECMAscript, but its basically the same thing.

More info at []

Funny, considering Sun was built on standards... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474265)

Sun owes most of its success to the acceptance of TCP/IP networking, without which, they would be nowhere.

Sun has profited immensely from open standards, but refuses to allow others to benefit in the same wway they did.

Huh? (1)

DonkPunch (30957) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474268)

I recall first using JDK 1.0 in 1995. Where do you get 6 years?

What does Sun own? What is Java? (3)

MattMann (102516) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474271)

What does Sun own? What is Java?

I guess they own the trademark, and a bunch of the code that's out there... but do they own other intellectual property involved, or is everyone simply worried about fragmentation?

Why doesn't ECMA simply go ahead and standardize the same thing under another name... perhaps the contracts that the current players in the Java industry have disallow them from going it "together" against Sun alone?

See, I'm speculating. It would be nice if someone who knew the answers could chime in.

Well this puts a twist to Java... (1)

octover (22078) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474273)

3 years ago or so when I was first learning to program my dad and just about everyone was "learn Java its the future language," "have to know Java to get anywhere in computers," etc. I looked at it and really lacked the discipline/desire to sit down and learn a language that to me looked slow runnning, and overall not really the next thing. I have since never taken more than look at Java and depending on what this does for the future of it I just might be glad that I never wasted my time picking it up.

... (0)

Mendax Veritas (100454) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474279)

Sun? Integrity? I must have misread it.

No, you are essentially at Sun's mercy from now on (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474282)

Sounds pessimistic, but this pretty much means that Sun will make themselves the single source for language developments, which essentially puts you at the mercy of one vendor, which is generally bad.

McNealy is E V I L ! (1)

uradu (10768) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474285)

Scott McNealy and Bill Gates have much more in common than is healthy for a grown man. I read an interview with McNealy in a German magazine a month or so ago, and I couldn't believe what a pompous ass the guy really is. He was talking about his Java Everywhere "vision", and when the interviewer brought up security concerns regarding personal privacy (or lack thereof), McNealy totally lambasted him. He went on about how Europeans are such unreasonable freaks about personal privacy and how they want to regulate every last aspect of life. He went on a serious rant against Europeans well beyond the scope of the interview. Since ECMA is a European body, I wouldn't be surprised if that played some part in Sun's decision to withdraw Java. Pure speculation, but McNealy strikes me as the kind of capricious guy that would let personal feelings dictate the course of an entire company.

rational decision but bad PR (5)

jetson123 (13128) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474288)

I understand their decision and don't actually see much benefit from having Java go through a standards body. Sun has been doing an excellent job on designing the language and the libraries; HP, Microsoft, and other "standards" participants would likely make things worse. So, from a practical point of view, I think it doesn't matter.

So far, Sun's Java specs are explicitly open: you can use them to build your own compatible implementation (you just can't call it "Java"). And Sun's Java specs are detailed and quite complete. This is in stark contrast to the Win32 API specs, which are so poorly documented that for practical purposes, it's not possible to make a complete independent implementation.

However, dropping the standardization effort also is bad PR because it gives the impression that Sun is renegging on their commitments.

One point of concern is that Sun every now and then seems to make some fuzzy claims about intellectual property related to the Java APIs. No matter who drives the evolution of the Java platform (Sun or a standards body), those parts of the Java specs would clearly not be acceptable to most users of Java, and that is something users need clarity on up-front.

If Sun does make IP claims related to parts of the APIs (rather than their implementation), that would be a serious matter and would have to be identified up front. That is a point, I think, Sun needs to be pressed on so that we don't end up in a situation analogous to GIF/Unisys. Those APIs would likely be only a small part of the Java platform and easily replaced by alternative de-facto standards developed outside Sun.

Re:Did anyone NOT see this coming? (1)

JamesSharman (91225) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474291)

Of course we didn't, have you not heard? The open source and slashdot comunity is stuffed full of us loving trusting people who never expect a bad, self interest motivated move from a large corporation like sun. After all they could never have got big in the market being nasty. Could they?

He's right about standards bodies (1)

bafful (27467) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474293)

Look at how long it took to complete the C++ standard. I still expect a lot to happen about Java in the next years, so a slow standards body would actually be a Bad Thing.

Java OO from ground up? almost (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474295)

The inclusion of both reference and primitive types precludes it from being a pure OO language.

This is just one example of how JAva is fractured.

The Java LANGUAGE, not the CLASSES! (5)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474298)

Sun's been doing a fine job on the language itself, what we're talking about here. The LANGUAGE. Not the class libraries; not swing; not jmf; not java 3d; not java 2d; just the LANGUAGE.

I've been to many JavaOne conferences, and a few of the other presentations when this topic comes up. All kinds of people have their own little pet additions to Java. Multiple inheritence is one. Do people miss it? Sure. Do they need it? NO. I've been programming in Java professionally for four and half years now (since the day it went public). I've never ONCE run into a situation where I've been stopped by this. And you know what? The code is cleaner because of it. Say what you want, but multiple inheritence is just a huge mess for the next poor slob that has to maintain the code.

What's the point of that rant? Without Sun (and mainly Gosling and Guy Steel) holding the reigns on the Java up until this point, all kinds of confusing crapola would have been added to the language (just look at what Microsmurf tried to add), and it would have gone from a simple, elegant language to a huge mess.

I think Sun (specifically the team of people that keep an eye on what to add) has been doing a pretty darn good job so far. Without the people who knew from the beginning what the original intent of the language was, Java would have degenerated into a mismash of crap.

Re:Huh? (1)

Thomas Charron (1485) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474301)

In the heat of the moment, I spit out a number that sounded right. Ok..

5 Years..

(It was Java before the 1.0 JDK)

Languages DO need to be open source (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474302) you don't tie yourself to one vendor.

This should be common sense.

Standards Compliance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474309)

I'm posting this anonymously because this may be a very obvious question, but here goes anyway. Sun was screwed by MSFT embracing and extending Java, so naturally they're skeptical of throwing standards out to everybody. But is there some legal way they can promote the standard for public use, but copyright the name, of sorts? What I mean is, can no company say "Java" on their product, unless it adheres in accordance to the standards that Sun set? This could prevent companies from calling a product "Java", "Java Compiler", etc, unless it is in true conformance with what Sun meant Java to be.

Re:The Java LANGUAGE, not the CLASSES! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474313)

Oh, forgot one thing. This is very similar to what Linus does with the Linux kernel. That's worked out pretty well so far, wouldn't you say?

Or would you rather have the kernel turned over to a standards body?

It's Linus' vision of what the kernel needed and didn't need. It's the same thing with Java.

Integrity... hmn. (2)

emerson (419) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474314)

"Integrity" is such a nice word, innit? It gives you the warm fuzzy feeling that there's somehow something pure and holy there that's being kept sacrasanct, out of the dirty hands of the teeming masses. Sun Microsystems, noble defenders of the "integrity" of Java2, stalwart bastions of truth and light against the unwashed heathens that would taint their singular manifest vision.

Merriam-Webster [] defines integrity as, among other things, "an unimpaired condition : soundness." So, Sun is protecting Java2 from the "impairment" of the standards process. Standards are somehow "unsound." Sun is saying that Java2 becoming a standard will somehow innately taint, corrupt, or poison the platform.

Merriam-Webster also defines integrity as "firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility." Aha. So Sun keeping Java outside of the standards process is an issue of morals? "It's a moral decision, Doc, and I'll stand by it." Sun-as-priesthood, handing down proclamations on morailty to the ignorant masses who are too immoral and corrupt to See The Java Vision(tm) themselves.

Finally, M-W defines integrity as "the quality or state of being complete or undivided : completeness." Here's the cruz of the matter: control. The One True Java, Sun's Java. The Java Above Which There Is No Other. I-AM-Brand Java. Thou Shalt Not Worship Other Java's Besides Sun's. Sun fears the fork, more than anything.

None of these observations is earth-shattering news, but it's interesting (to me, at least), to look at how Sun has doctored and spun this story with the use of that single word, "integrity."


We need an OS virtual machine (5)

Crutcher (24607) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474315)

Java promised us a compile once, run anywhere solution, and for a few years, it looked like we would get it.

Well, we didn't; and we aren't going to out of java, not for a long time.

I think its time that we consider abandoning java, and starting up a new program. The real wonder of Java is, and should have remained, its virtual machine, and if Sun had developed a robust VM, and kept it seperate from the language, then developing for the VM would be just like developing for any other computer archetecture, and we could have used our languages of choice and cross-compiled to the VM.

In addition, an independant VM would have less security issues than a merged language/VM, and it would become easier to maintain the sandbox.

In conclusion, we need an OS VM, and you can write C, I will write C++, and my buddy will write Fortran and Assembler, and they will all run on it.


Re:This will only hurt (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474318)

I understand what you are saying, but it will be interesting to see if this will cause people to hesitate in using java. I wonder if it has anything to do with microsoft selling J++.

May not be such a bad thing (2)

gargle (97883) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474319)

I'm not sure turning Java over to a standards commitee would be a good thing. Commitees move slowly, they bicker, and ultimately there's no legal reason why individual companies have to abide by the standards (e.g. C). For something as politically charged as Java, it's possible that we may need a company like Sun behind it to sue companies like Microsoft that deviate from the standards. Yes, Java needs to be more open, but I don't think turning Java over to a standards commitee will make things any better than they are now.

Re:Java will splinter sooner. (3)

_Swank (118097) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474322)

I see IBM (and HP also) as entirely different than MS here and can not see them developing their own versions of Java. It makes sense for MS to bastardize Java because they are enitrely for the proprietization of the language to the Windows platform. They have nothing else but Windows and do not desire their "enhancements" be available on anything else. IBM and HP on the other hand have a much larger set of platforms which they support in various ways. In the case of IBM, polluting Java would require polluting it for OS/390, OS400, AIX, as well as Windows, Linux and many other operating systems that they often make their products available for. IBM is very concerned about portability as many of their software applications run on several (or more) platforms. Just check pretty much any product at [] and you will likely see that the product you look at is available on several platforms (MQSeries is available for well over 20 different platforms and is not alone). IBM is making a big push in the Java arena already specifically for its platform independence and development speed, polluting Java would not make sense for them. This is an investment which they have already made and very likely will continue to do so and not by bastardizing the language.

Perl and Python too! Standardize NOW! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474323)

So, I guess Perl and Python should be turned over too, eh? Man, look how junky those turned out to be without being part of a standards organization!

Re:Way to go SUNW! Standardized bodies killed c++ (3)

jilles (20976) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474327)

Indeed, standardization only slows things down. Java is evolving rapidly, any standard would be obsolete before it has gone through the acceptation procedure. I.e. a standard has little other than marketing value.

If you look at standardization of Java, there's three things that can be standardized:
- the language
- the bytecode
- the API

Standardizing the language at this point would not be a good thing since interesting language extensions are being developed at the moment (classes with parameters). As long as the extended languages are backwards compatible that's ok with me.

Standardizing the bytecode would probably be not very harmful but I don't see any immediate advantages either. The bytecode and the VM have been pretty well described already and anybody can make a cleanroom implementation of it. As far as I know the specs have been very stable. It should be possible to compile old jdk 1.02 programs with the latest JDK and run the resulting bytecode on an old java VM (provided the new API doesn't clash with the old one).

Standardizing the API is rediculous. The java API is a moving target, functionality is being added continuously and the existing API is also perfected from time to time. Fixing the API is not a good thing since I want new functionality and I want those errors fixed in the existing API. In any case a standard API would be lagging behind the current version of the API making it pretty much useless.

Official vs Documented Standards (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474328)

Standards provide nothing more than a name. If someone wants to write a VM which happens to work with the well documented Java bytecode it would be perfectly legal, and would be used I'm sure.

Linux is not Unix, but it does not matter. Mesa is not OpenGL, but that also does not matter. Why does everyone want to make "Java" an open name? Why should Sun open their source to Java?

If OSS is incapable of developing a project as complex as Java, OSS obviously isn't to be taken seriously by Sun anyway.

Has anyone used the C++ STL Lately? (1)

Ghengis (73865) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474330)

Why does this cause such an uproar? C++ has the STL, now part of the standard C++ language according to ANSI/ISO, but how many compilers actually implement it? Last time I checked g++ was the closest with only a partial implementation. There's a big difference between saying there's a standard and actually seeing one and getting to use it!

Undermine what? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474332)

Just a thought here... But the article mentioned refers simply to ECMA standards. How significant is it that Java is not "ECMA compliant"?

Put another way, is Apache, Perl, Python, Linux, GNU, or anything else commonly used in the Open Source domain "ECMA compliant"? I doubt very many things are, yet that does not stop us from using them. (Ironically, Microsoft's JScript is more ECMA compliant than Javascript...)

There are many obvious licensing differences between Java and the technologies I list, but they have their mutual "non-ECMA compliant"-ness in common. ECMA is irrelevant to whether or not I use Java or anything else.

Just curious--who *does* ECMA honestly matter to? The obvious answer is Europeans, but is it as significant as say ISO? Also are there any industries, such as telco or anything else, where ECMA is particularly important?

Time to back Objective-C (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474333)

Screw Java, put some effort into GNUStep. It's everything Java wishes it were, minus cross platform bytcode. It's like a JDK that actually makes sense and doesn't grind your system to a halt...

Star Office (3)

finkployd (12902) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474335)

Now that they own StarOffice, is this move an indication of things to come. IE. will future versions of StarOffice only run on SUN's Java VM?
ABIWord is looking better and better.


Standard organizations are NOT always good. (2)

Grue (3391) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474338)

Unfortunately with standard bodies, you get way too much politiking. This company wants something implemented this way. This company wants something implemented that way. The group decides to implement it as a combination of both ways, which is ACTUALLY worse than either method alone. Let's look at a heavily standard influenced language. ADA, need I say more? Argh, nice ideas, but try writing a compiler for it. Sometimes simpler is better.


Re:Well this puts a twist to Java... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474341)

I hope you feel the same way when you are washing cars for a living, dolt. I make in excess of $250,000 doing guess got consulting. The market is there and is growing. A dumb ass kid like yourself will probably wind up being some stupid MSCE. Thank yourself for fucking up your life. Your dad is pretty stupid too. He should have forced you at gunpoint to learn the language. Not it's too late. You'll never learn, never make money and never get women. Damn, I pity you.

Re:Way to undermine the language.. (3)

jone_stone (124040) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474345)

Do you really think that Sun would behave any differently than MS has, if they had MS's power? No, they wouldn't. Corperations are there so that no one person has to take the blame for the corp's dastardly deeds. And Rare is the corperation that doesn't perform nasty acts. They do whatever they can to survive and prosper. If that includes breaking the law (assuming they can get away with it), so be it.

My point here is that when you get right down to it, Sun is no more or less evil than MS. We just like to focus on MS because they have the power. If Apple had won the desktop war, it would be them on trial for anti-trust violations right now, not Microsoft.

What about Sun withdrawing Java from the standardization process? Well, it enforces my point: Sun is not our friend just because they are the underdog in the war. They will do anything they can to gain ground, even if it ends up screwing us, the loyal folks who have faith in the ultimate virtue of the underdog.

Perhaps that faith is their greatest asset?

Re:Java OO from ground up? almost (1)

Signail11 (123143) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474347)

"ground up" refers to Java not having been evolved from a previous non-OO language like the transition from C to C++ with all the cruft that entailed.

Flames? Think I'm a karma whore?

Re:Way to undermine the language.. (1)

rbunten (9324) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474348)

I take issue with your claim that "unlike just about every other computer language on the planet - Java is the only one that is proprietary".
What about Visual Basic, Visual C++ and Visual J++, to name a few?

Re:The Java LANGUAGE, not the CLASSES! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474350)

Now now there's no need to get reasonable about this ;)

Re:The Java LANGUAGE, not the CLASSES! (4)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474352)

I don't see the problem. Guido van Rossum "controls" Python, Bertrand Meyer "controls" Eiffel, Linus Torvalds "controls" Linux. Nobody is complaining. Centralized control of the direction of an OS or a language by itself is not evil, since it prevents splintering. While solitary control can sometimes be confining, possibly preventing some innovation, its benefits can outweigh its costs when applied judiciously. It is only when the control is too tight that programmers and users suffer.

Bzzz (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474353)

Bzzzzz.. Thanks for playing. First public release was in May of 1995. Four and half years.

We now return to the regularly scheduled threads.

Re:Integrity... of the _investment_ (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474355)

It's the "integrity of the investment in Java". Period. Standard definition. "Soundness, completeness, incorruptibility" of the investment has semantic integrity.

Re:Aww they thought they were a monopoly (1)

BeerBaron (120755) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474356)

Guess you better stop visiting a lot web sites that use servlets. BeerBaron (urp!)

Sun+Java = Just as Evil as Bill and Gang (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474358)

I like Sun's hardware. Solaris is quite nice as well, but people should look at the kind of actions Sun takes that make it just as evil as good 'ol MS.

Java is cute, but is full of restrictive licensing problems and therefore will never be capable of true production quality systems development (before I start a holy war, it can be argued that a production quality system can be created in Perl or shell scripts - but your average telephone switching network isn't written in them...).

Sun likes to sue people left right and centre, and they won't let Java be exposed and improved by the community. Sun also has a love-affair with the proprietary, and charges at least 5 times as equivalent-performance pc hardware. Anyways, once MS is out of the way Sun will be next in line to screw the hacker community.

B. Joy: We can't just throw it out in the street! (1)

jeffr (28143) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474359)

Try Sather (do google or deja power search; its now part of gnu). Sather is a more promising language than java, and being GPL'd doesn't have Sun's lawyers lurking in the background.

Even if you don't use it, understanding Sather will greatly enhance your comprehension of OO techniques.

Who will save us?/empowerment (1)

plopez (54068) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474362)

I do not want to flame you, but I am suspicous of IBM as I am of MS, Sun, Cisco or any other commercial outfit. I feel that the entire Open Source movement is mainly about empowerment. If you don't like or can't afford UNIX or Windows, invent Linux. If Oracle is too expensive, work on mySQL. Need a web server, use Apache. If Sun locks people out of Java, let's see what else develops. Expecting another corporation to save us is like expecting the lion to save us from the wolf. It will only happen happen unless we make it happen.

Just my opinion.....

Re:What does Sun own? What is Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474363)

ECMA are very likely to do just that.

Re:Way to undermine the language.. (2)

Cuthalion (65550) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474364)

Visual C++ is a product, not a language. It's a compiler for a nearly standard implementation of C++. For reference, that is how I would describe g++ (GNU's C++ compiler) as well.

They do supply proprietary APIs and stuff and encourage their use, but being aware of that, I've actually had an easier time porting [the non directdraw portions of] my VC++ code to other platforms than [the non-svgalib parts of] my G++ code.

Time To turn the Linux Kernel over! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474365)

It's time to turn the Linux Kernel over too. It's not standardized, and it's in control of one person!

This will only hurt Linux developers in the end. Without standardization there is no portability (sic), making everbody's life harder.

No, the language is CRAP. (1)

jcr (53032) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474366)

People have been trying to claim since day one that the "language is OK, it's just the implementations and the libraries that suck."

Sorry, but Java has the same brain-dead C++ syntax that makes it a pain in the ass to deal with methods that take more than two parameters (see Smalltalk and Objective-C for examples of how to do this right.), it has no way to extend classes other than by subclassing, and after you give up performance for portability, you don't actually *get* the portability. Java is "write once, run away."

The standard excuse for Java is just like the standard excuse for communism. At some point, since *all* the implementations suck you have to admit that the underlying concept is CRAP.


Re:Way to undermine the language.. (2)

Cuthalion (65550) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474367)

Well, to pick nits, the original purpose of the corporation was to dilute/distribute the financial responsibility of running a business. I agree that a side effect has been the dilution of moral responsibility.

Linux too!Re:Perl and Python too! Standardize NOW! (2)

mistabobdobalina (29109) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474368)

linux must be released from the tyranny of linus torvalds and full control of the kernel should be turned over to a byzantine european standards body composed of retirees from groupe bull and versace who will spend 6 years arguing over the relative merits of creating a steering group to debate an initiative to consider adding better smp capabilities

Re:Get a grip people (1)

jeffr (28143) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474369)

The implication is that only proprietary controls assure standardization and prevent fragmentation.

So that's why the internet is so fscked up! It's subject to all this horriblly uncontrolled software like sendmail, linux, apache, yada yada yada.

'who cares about java anymore?' I DO! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474370)

As a Slashdot reader and a Java programmer, I quite frankly find CmdrTaco's heading to this post INSULTING. I've been following the threads for the various Java-related news items over the past few days, and while I've seen there is still a great deal of ignorance regarding the power of the Java platform (with a few intelligent arguments noting Java's flaws), there have also been a great many posts from enlightened Slashdot readers that have experienced Java development FIRST HAND (I suspect that those people that are foaming at the mouth; "Java sucks because its not open source" or "Sun won't open the standard" (only so people can screw it up); HAVEN'T had first hand experience at serious Java development). So I think CmdrTaco is proving that he doesn't spend much time reading what the Slashdot populace thinks!

Re:Independent Standards (2)

drudd (43032) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474371)

What sun is trying to do it save their creation from the jowls of Microsoft. Do you just want another Visual Basic?

If Sun retains control than that is exactly what we're going to get! Sun just wants to take over
from Microsoft.

Java has potential. It is very annoying to use currently, since it is in active development. If the changes to the language are motivated by the desire to improve the language, it will make a good platform. If, on the other hand, it continues to be abused by Sun, Microsoft, and whomever else gets their hands on it, it will never realize its potential.

That's why I wish to see the overall design taken out of Sun's hands.


Re:Protect my ass (1)

Agrippa (111029) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474372)

Good point about a Perl interpreter in Mozilla. I never really understood what the big deal about Java was anyway, to me it's all hype. Supposedly you can write once, run anywhere, but in reality you really can't do much more than a universal Hello World program, if that. For maximum portability I usually use Perl anyway. Sure there are some qwirks going from Unix -> Windows in Perl, but for the most part it's much more portable than Java for the small to medium sized applications I need. But that's just me, I would expect a Java advocate to disagree. :-)

True - the SC22 mailing lists confirm (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474373)

I listen in on the ISO JTC1 SC22 list ( where a lot of the ECMA people also go, and the reaction has been universally hostile to Sun. Many people are anxious to go ahead with or without Sun.

In the end, Sun will sue their asses before letting them define a spec, so it will come to nothing.

Re:Way to undermine the language.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474374)

You're nuts. Kirk had the two-handed fist. He met Abraham Lincoln in deep space. And he had his way with alien women on every planet. He had women in miniskirts give him coffee. Kirk is clearly better than Picard, who can't even speak with the right accent (the French have British accents? yaright)

Cool Java stuff (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474375)

Sounds like you've never spent any time whatsoever doing anything in Java. That's a great way to go through life, judging things you've never used. Take a look at Thier program is in java, and it's very worthwhile.

Re:Java Standard (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474376)

It would be best if Java were an ANSI/ISO standard, like C/C++, SQL, and many of the other really "open" languages. Sun gave up on making that happen a long time ago, because they already would have lost too much control for their liking...So they decided to go with ECMA, who would have allowed Java to be a standard but given Sun much control over its future. Now they dont even want to do that.

Anyone who supports openness, in standards even if not in source, should be totally against Sun's latest crap. Now when companies like HP and IBM splinter off and make their own Java-like language, Sun has noone to blame but itself. The funny part is these other companies have consistently been putting out better Java products than Sun itself, so I wouldn't be surprised if the "offical" Java became a bit of a footnoot in the history of "Open, Portable Virtual Machine" languages.

Man, Sun sure sucks.

Re:We need an OS virtual machine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474377)

I agree. In an earlier post to this thread, I jokingly suggested UAE (universal amiga emulator) as general purpose Virtual Machine, but the idea definitely has merit. If I didn't have so much work to do, i'd work out the details myself. All you'd really need is a RISCy virtual CPU, including a memory management system, a virtual sound output, a virtual network connection, and a framebuffer. the VM could be fed ELF object files, or a compiler layer could be tacked on the outside to handle source code applets.

Re:RMS, Java and Python (2)

Bill Currie (487) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474378)

Interesting point about RMS and Java, I never knew that, but then, I don't exactly hang off his coat tails either (no offence). I wonder how he feals about Python. I don't think Python has ever been offered for standardisation (CMIIW), and I think Guido maintians fairly tight control, but I've never heard of anyone trying (eg MS) to usurp Python. Hmm, I wonder how aware MS is of Python; it seams to be a fairly low profile language and thus may be under MS's radar for cross platform languages. Python seem to fulfill the promise of Java (write once, ease of programming) without the hype and controversy.

Sorry if that's incoherent, I'm in a distracted mood ATM.

Re:The Java LANGUAGE, not the CLASSES! (1)

SETY (46845) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474379)

Something has to be done, but another C++ ,slow as shit standards process, is not the answer.
And polluting the language...arghhh.
Keep it it for the code maintainers!

Re:No, you are essentially at Sun's mercy from now (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474380)

Anyone who has both desire and ability to implement a Java compatable VM can. As has been mentioned before IBM is pretty good. If you don't trust any companies find some OSS zealots who think they can implement it.

Get a grip people (2)

izick (71632) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474381)

Sun wants to control the development of the language. They don't want other companies like HP and Microsoft polluting it for their personal gain. I'm in no way saying Sun is a saint and they couldn't do things better..

I become very cynical toward those who think open source is the answer to every issue and because someone has control of code they are unenlighten individuals that are beneath them. Companies make money.. that's the point.. I'm still amazed there isn't so much backlash against RedHat because they sell open source software. They make money off your work.. But it's not ok for Sun to control and make money off their own work.

Java was created for 1 reason. To sell Sun servers. The more programs in Java, the more portable and the less control Microsoft has over Sun. If in anyway Sun can lose control over the direction Java goes, then HP, IBM, Microsoft, or someone else can add extentions that cause it not to be platform independent and that will spell the end of Java's purpose, to sell servers.

I personally would love a open source standard, but not at the expense of portability. Sun offers me a free JDK that I can code whatever I want and do what I please. If I remember correctly you can still get the JDK source code and can still fix bugs, but you can't go and sell it.. Gee.. There's a big loss.. not!

It's the price you pay.. You want portability or fragmentation.

Re:Bzzz (1)

mistabobdobalina (29109) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474382)

are those green or native?

Multiple inheritance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474384)

There is nothing inherently wrong with multiple inheritance. It's not a huge mess. Maybe in C++ it's screwed up though. I agree that you don't NEED it, but then again I've never really needed for loops or switch statements either.

it's screwed up (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474391)

Sun is a killer hardware company, but a lousy software company. JavaSoft couldn't freeze a spec to save its life. I've aged ten years in the last three, chasing the moving target of the Java platform, courtesy of our friends at Sun. If Solaris was released in such an ill conceived manner, it would amount to not much more than the rubbish that Redmond outfit claims is an operating system. Either JavaSoft needs to apply the same discipline the Solaris folks have, or Java needs to be pushed through a bureaucratic standards body to gel things up a bit.

I was convinced of Java's High Cool Factor(TM) four plus years ago - it's time the marketing people took second place to the needs of the real world developers who have to use this day in and day out.

The utopia of Java is far from fully realized. Sun can't afford to continually make foolish mistakes, even though M$ is on the run. Can someone tell me why I have to pick a platform target for downloading the JDK javadocs or extended APIs?? Wasn't the JAR file format created for this sort of thing too? You need JDK 1.2 (excuse me, J2EE, I mean, Java 2) for Jini; someone thinks we're actually going to cram the 1.2/J2EE/Java 2 bloat into embedded devices?

If I were Sun, I would be wondering how long it would take a group of open source code jocks to create a better, open, and more stable Java-like platform. Something tells me it wouldn't take too long =)

"Standards". (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474392)

Yeah, kinda like the Linux kernel, Perl, Python, and Eiffel are controlled by one person or group. Man, those sure turned out bad. We better hand all those over to a standards organization right away before they're all ruined.

Want an Open Object Platform? Support GNUstep (3)

Nightspore (102270) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474393)

Since Sun obviously can't be trusted to do the right thing as far as opening this platform up I don't install any Java VM on my Linux boxen. Support an open object API for Linux, support GNUstep [] .

Java is over. The future belongs to Objective-C.


Re:Did they jump, or were they pushed? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474394)

But...erm... Javascript is nothing to do with Java. Javascript is a web-page embedded scripting thing that was originally a Netscape-ism, that got standardised after MS pushed for a standard (MS pushes for standards on things it doesn't control, so it can later subvert them.)

Java is different. A Java VM is a little toy computer being emulated on your PC, thus ensuring a common platform for whatever code you write. Personally, I think they should have used UAE (Universal Amiga Emulator) as a VM - it'd be lighter weight, easier to write for (choice of C,C++,68k asm, and a host of others), and with a massive back catalogue... :-))

Re:Multiple inheritance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474395)

It's not a huge mess if you use it correctly; most people don't. Leaving it out was a "good thing"(tm), and makes code a heck of a lot less confusing.

Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474396)

Why is this bad? Has it been bad for other things we use every day? Many of those are controlled by one person, or small group.

Re:Java Standard (1)

PatDunn (23264) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474398)

Thanks, I hope not. I'm about to upgrade my java skills and I'm really looking forward to using it beyond what I've learned in the past. Pat

C++ wasn't killed by ANSI. (2)

jcr (53032) | more than 14 years ago | (#1474400)

And ANSI standards haven't done any damage at all to C, FORTRAN, COBOL, SQL, or any of the other languages that have ANSI committees to define them. C++ sucks because Stroustrup didn't know when to quit. -jcr

Re:No, you are essentially at Sun's mercy from now (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1474401)

IBM is steaming ahead with its own Java project. (and it's better than sun's). They're big enough not to care if they don't get an official compatibility mark from sun. They can just release a Java-workalike, and standardise it themselves, possibly in conjunction with ECMA, as "IBM/ECMA Jika" . Thus you'd have "IBM/ECMA Jika" is to Java as Mesa is to OpenGL, except that Microsoft, Kaffe, HP(ChaiVM), Tower, et al. would throw their weight behind the IBM standard, and ignore sun. This is what ECMA are talking about when they say the might "carry on with the standardisation without sun". They just wouldn't be able to call it Java, they'd call it Jika or some equally silly name (like ECMAScript is to javascript)
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