Miyamoto Speaks, Nintendo Ditching the Hardcore? 314
After Nintendo's very ... different ... press conference, you may be wondering what's going on. In a roundtable discussion with Nintendo, folks like Eiji Aonuma and Shigeru Miyamoto discussed Zelda, Mario Galaxy and WiiFit , giving some context to the message the company had on Wednesday. The balance board begged the question from the people there, is Nintendo ditching the hardcore? According to the Nintendo folks, not at all: "Aonuma believes that control can be pick-up-and-play, but that doesn't necessarily mean a game overall has to be easier. But he still states that his 'goal was always to appeal to...a vast audience.' One attendee pushed the issue further, asking if all Zelda games from now on are going to cater to the more casual crowd--will we ever again need a strategy guide to complete a Zelda game? Aonuma says that judging by Japanese sales so far, accessible 'stream-lined play has been effective,' but he wants to see how Western audiences react to the new Zelda before making a final decision on future games' difficulty levels. Aunoma also hopes to venture into new territory and create a wholly original game at some point in his career." For a lengthy treat, check out Kotaku's series of interview clips with Mr. Miyamoto.
Nonsense (Score:5, Funny)
OHHHHHH, hardcore GAMERS... My bad.
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No way (Score:3, Insightful)
For example: I've been playing Gradius III (SNES) very casually lately: about 7-15 minutes every few days. It's hard as hell, so I die within that time period and look forward to the next time I play when my skills will hopefully be a little better.
Even if all the Wii games are "casual" games, they won't necessarily be easy.
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Strategy guide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would anyone want a game that requires a strategy guide to complete? That's normally a sign that the game has failed for me.
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Re:Strategy guide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Obtaining the best weapons in FF12 is literally IMPOSSIBLE without a strategy guide/faq. Hell to get the "best" weapon, The Zodiac Spear, a player has to refrain from opening 4 specific chests throughout the course of the game. If one does not open these 4 chests, a chest in an optimal dungeon near the end of the game will contain the Spear (otherwise it will be empty). The 4 chests you can't open are not distinguished in ANY way and are in plain sight, making the entire process retardedly obscure.
I enjoyed FF12, but stuff like that made me wonder what the fuck Square was thinking. If Nintendo can make games that don't resort to that kind of bullshit just to sell a $20 game guide, them I'm all for it.
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They were thinking that you would pay $20 for a game guide. You don't really think that someone just sits down and figures out which 4 of the hundreds of chests not to open, do you? 8*)
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A lot of side-quests in many games involve hunting for certain items across the world. The locations these items are hidden in may be somewhat obscure. In addition, various dungeons in games will hide certain bits of treasure in strange places.
Basically, these are exactly the sort of things that I would've picked up on on the 2nd or 3rd replay of a game when I was in high school that made those games great to replay. However, a
Re:Strategy guide? (Score:5, Funny)
(Your estimated IQ is 50)
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Same thing with the Zelda:Oracle games on the Game Boy Color.
I think I stopped using strategy guides maybe 6 years ago. Gaming is a lot more interesting without something to hold your hand.
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Funny how that works, isn't it.
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funny, I got a wii so I could play games with my daughter, and I was just thinking the opposite of that.
Re:Strategy guide? (Score:5, Interesting)
The solution, and it's a simple one, is for manufacturer's to just realize that there are different market segments, and make a variety of games that appeal to each different segment. The market WANTS some really, really hard games. It wants some dirt easy ones. It wants some long games, some short games. It wants some violent games, and some non-violent ones. Give 'em what they want.
Re:Strategy guide? (Score:5, Funny)
What exactly would that strategy guide say? "Run to the right. Jump over anything in your way. Run to the right some more. Continue running to the right..."
Re:Strategy guide? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Strategy guide? (Score:5, Funny)
How could you expect them to jump? The game is about running to the right. No wonder I kept dying. Damn puzzle games.
Re:Strategy guide? (Score:5, Informative)
To get to the warp zone...
Mole enemies are invulnerable to fireballs...
To get over sections full of small jumps, hold the run button and run across.
Likitu is a pain. The best strategy for dealing with him is...
Hammer Bros. are an enemy that require precise timing and movement to defeat. The best strategy is...
Seriously, anyone remember when strategy books were about strategy and not just answer keys? I probably still have my SFII strategy guide somewhere, which goes into detailed strategies that people figured out for playing the various characters in the game. This included sets of combos that were most effective against particular opponents and at what ranges.
Re:Strategy guide? (Score:4, Interesting)
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http://www.dailymotion.com/elephantlarry/video/x1
Some of the other vids that guy did are good too.
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Well, that might be the original SUPER Mario Brothers strategy guide. The original Mario Brothers strategy guide would have to say "Don't touch the enemies coming out of those pipes. Hit them from below to flip them over. Kick them off the platform before Luigi does."
or the ADVANCED TIPS:
"Wait til Luigi tries to kick the enemy off the platform. Just before he does, hit it from below to flip it back over and kill Luigi!"
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I agree with this wholeheartedly.
Personally, I think the perfect difficulty for a game is that it always feels like a challenge, but somehow never prevents you from progressing. You should never just get "stuck" on some part of a game with no idea on how to move on for weeks at a time, the only way to continue is to cheat in some way. (And yes, in my mind, looking up info in a game guide is "cheating")
You can appeal to casual and hardcore audiences (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't have to be a pro to enjoy a sport, an instrument, or a game and yet pros can keep engrossed so long as there's room for growth.
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-uso.
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Why can't they do both? (Score:4, Insightful)
If we look at what happened at E3 and where the anticipation seems to be, I note that Super Mario Galaxy and Metroid Prime 3. Looking at the past, these games predecessors have typically been quite lengthy affairs. Thus, it would seem that these games appeal more to the "hardcore" crowd.
We also see games like Wii Fit and Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Wii Fit, which seems to resemble the mechanics used in Wii Sports and Wii play, will sport short games. SSBB is often seen as a quick, pick-up-and-play-a-round style game as well. These games appear to appeal more to the casual gamer who don't have as much time to play.
I guess what I'm saying is, whether you're "hardcore" or casual, you have some really great games to look forward to this year and next.
I'm not hardcore, but I've been ditched (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm personally feeling alienated, but I'm not really Nintendo's primary focus anymore, I don't think. I enjoy games like Okami, God of War, Guitar Hero, Grand Theft Auto, 2D Castlevanias, and RPGs. I still enjoy my DS, but I can't see myself picking up a Wii again until it's cheaper. I haven't considered myself a "hardcore gamer" for years, but yet I feel like Nintendo has moved on with the Wii. But I can live with that, the DS and PS2 still provide me tons of games I'm interested in.
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I'm not yet sure that all the whining about Nintendo "abandoning" the hardcore is any different from the whining about the GC being too "kiddy".
Play the games you want to play, on the systems that they're available. I don't understand what sense of entitlement moves people to argue that Nintendo should be loyal to them as individuals, all the while claiming that what they really want is a conventional controller and long RPG games, which are already available, and the hardcore probably already ow
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There was a time where Nintendo was not about endless sequels. All those games Nintendo has for the Wii are the same stuff they already had for the Gamecube, not even the graphics are all that different. If Nintendos games would have a continuous story line that might not be that bad, but Zelda is the same thing over and over again and it gets tiring.
Whatever happened to games like Pikmin, Starfox, YoshisIsland, StuntRaceFX
Ask 3rd parties... (Score:2)
Third Party Support (Score:2)
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Somehow a large porton of "hardcore" gamers take everything that doesn't satisfy them as an insult.
Wait. What? (Score:2)
I wonder what's going on with Japanese gaming demographics such that 'stream-lined play has been effective'.
Makes sense (Score:2)
Nintendo the gateway console (Score:3, Interesting)
The Wii could very well be a gateway console for gaming leading people to the harder stuff down the road. I really cant see Nintendo totally abandoning their established fan base, but I can see an extra emphasis being put on grabbing new gamers. There are still plenty of "hardcore" titles in the pipe. Don't worry about it, no need to be elitish about it, the more people gaming the better.
Hardcore (Score:5, Insightful)
Times change. I'm married. 2 kids. 9-6 job in a cube. I now love the fact that so many games that are available are simple 'pick-up-and-play-in-the-evening'. In a way, Nintendo's game console has evolved to match my needs just as my needs changed. I imagine I'm not alone.
Re:Hardcore (Score:4, Funny)
How about these slogans.
Nintendo the game system for people that don't live in their parents basement.
or
Nintendo the game system for people that have a life.
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Not abandoning, but certaintly not focusing either (Score:5, Insightful)
My biggest concern for the platform is that that instead of being known as the "Kid Console", they may become known as a non game console.
I am convinced that it is the 2nd and 3rd generation of Wii titles that will ultimately define the Wii. The first year has, as expected, suffered from a lack of big name titles. The launch was strong, but Metroid, Mario, and Brawl got pushed back too far. And because no one expected the Wii to do as well as it has, no one was developing 'core' games for the platform outside of the launch window. Of course, everyone scrambled to find a place on the bandwagon.
The casual titles are easy to develop. Core titles take alot more time. Until the first batch of 3rd party core titles come on stream, you will get pretty much what we already have. Kid games, Ports, some 1st party Nintendo titles, and casual games.
If Nintendo does manage to completely alienate the core gamer demographic, than that kind of title spread is what will dominate the platform. Certaintly entertaining, but that means that those seeking a more 'traditional' gaming experience will have to stick to the Xbox 360 or the PS3.
END COMMUNICATION
Re:Not abandoning, but certaintly not focusing eit (Score:2)
That said, I'd rather get my parents interested in playing games than have Really Cool Hardcore Games to play.
Re:Not abandoning, but certaintly not focusing eit (Score:4, Insightful)
Everyone's been crowing about how the Wii is expanding the market, but in doing so they had to choose to abandon the current market. Why? Because what they were producing for the current market wasn't expanding the market. The Wii doesn't appeal to me at all, and not that much to my friends either. That's ok, we're not the target demographic for the Wii. We already have consoles. The Wii was never designed to appeal to us, and the only way it will ever appeal to us is if the games we want become exclusive to it. That's unlikely to happen, both the 360 and PS3 are designed to appeal to us by carrying the games we like to play and offering an experience that appeals to us.
So, yes, Nintendo abandonned the hardcore gamers years ago, but that's ok, we don't expect everyone to cater to our tastes. I don't expect the hardcore games to go to the Wii no matter how well it performs in the marketplace. Even if they try to sell them for the Wii at some point the developers of hardcore games will realize that the casual players who own a Wii won't buy their games because they're not looking for those games, they're looking for easy, casual games.
This is nothing new, it's been an obvious consequence of Nintendo's "new direction" since the Wii was released.
Re:Not abandoning, but certaintly not focusing eit (Score:2)
I kind of doubt that there will be any larger change in the games that will be available for the Wii. Third parties are starting Wii development, but they are starting mini/puzzle/cartoon and whatever kind of games, they are not doing the AssassinsCreeds and BioShocks. It just wouldn't make sense to produce that kind of games for a market that is buying the console for a completly different set of game
Only complainers are hardcore gamers (Score:2, Interesting)
The Wii Fit is a technological advancement of the g
Hardcore != difficulty level (Score:2, Insightful)
I define a hardcore game as a game targeted to the age 14-35 male demographic (approximately), and a casual game as targeted to the 6-
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I feel the Wii right now is a classic Nintendo Console. It's just waiting for it's Mario 64, which looks to be Brawl this time round.
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I wouldn't pin down hardcore or non-hardcore on the age demographic, that would be to simplistic. Instead I would pin it down on a games complexity, not just the amount of buttons it needs, but also how many ways there are to interact with the game world and stuff like that. Something like Falcon4.0 is certainly very hardcore, since it simulates
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The irony here is that once up on a time Mario Kart was hardcore, it not only was a rather though game, it was also one of the first console racers to ever be 3D, allowing you to make 180 turns and stuff like that, while other games had you race in front of a 2D background allowing you only left/right steering and acceleration (Top Gear, Outrun, etc.). Mario Kart also had advanced stuff like ghosts racers for time trial.
But as with many franchises, the rest of the world
This is wrong (Score:2, Insightful)
Sequel-itis is the death of entertainment (Score:2, Interesting)
That's a pretty shameful statement on the current state of the 'art' in videogames. I suppose it's a natural result of the big-business nature of videogame and movie making, but the number of 'safe' sequels being churned out is frankly embarassing. Show some guts people and take a chance or two. Our culture will thank you for it.
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It's a sad, sad comment on the industry when a developer 'hopes' to do something original *once* in their career.
depends on what part should be hardcore... (Score:2)
I don't think "learning how to control the damn thing" should be part of what makes a game hardcore, which several "hardcore" games are. That is one reason to started getting less and less interested in console gaming when suddenly you had to remember which commands mapped to which of the 8-12 buttons plus D-pad on the controller. That much complexity? I'll just take a keyboard and pl
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Right. Once FPS on my PC got too complicated (beyond ASDW and mouse) I gave up on PC gaming. There is something to be said for a simple interface.
I personally wish Nintendo would release a high end game+Tivo+DVD system that ran at 1080p. The interface is terrific on the screen and the wiimote is intuitive, I just wish my PVR, DVD, and cable box were half as nice. The 480P looks ok, but it could be better still.
1080p and more GPU may satisfy the hardcore gamers, I would assume. Or do they need more butt
long games for casual gamers (Score:2)
I have never been what people would call "hardcore" about games, but for the right content, I'll work on a game long enough to finish it, and found a couple things about playing non-casual games as a casual gamer.
I don't like having a clock against finishing every level. MAYBE on one part of one level, a short time limit to achieve a small, obvious goal. If I'm under the gun to finish every level, I just get turned off. Yet, the opposite is true too: I don't want to play if I can't save for the next
Answer == yes. (Score:2)
Nintendo doesn't give a rats ass about "Hard Core". They don't even care about "Medium Core".
Bring in the casual games and mini games! We need a good 20 or 30 Mario Puzzle Battle Party games.
Oh an Electronic Arts, you get it great to. You can produce a bunch of crappy games and not have to pay your developers anything, then sell it for a full price game! Then you can take the sa
Press conference (Score:5, Informative)
What's going on is that you witnessed an actual press conference, aimed at the main stream media, as opposed to an enthusiast-oriented hypefest. Nintendo saw the retooling of E3 as an opportunity to return to its intended roots, put on a show, and got their message out to those who needed to hear it. The point of the press event is to build up hype among retailers and the major press, which means communicating your vision, supporting your position, and giving them something to remember. This wasn't about abandoning gamers, hardcore, traditional, or otherwise.
Nintendo knows that the hardcore gamers get their news from Kotaku, NeoGAF, IGN, or other websites and internet fora. The diehards are the ones who are checking Smash Brothers Dojo daily to keep up with the new updates. The fanboys already check obsessively to keep up with breaking news on what is going to be available. They don't need to be the only ones attended to. Right after the conference concluded, Nintendo's E3 site went active, with new trailers for all the major upcoming releases and with lists of upcoming releases. The fans knew where to find it all, and didn't need for it to be shown on stage. And if they had any lingering questions, the round table session was devoted to fielding questions for and from the hardcore crowd.
That's not to say the enthusiasts were ignored. The first thirty to forty minutes of the event was dedicated to showing off the upcoming AAA titles for the benefit of the fans. They revealed that three major releases (Metroid Prime 3, Mario Galaxy, and Smash Brothers Brawl) are all coming out this year, with Mario Kart soon to follow. The announced that EA's entire sports lineup will be online, and that Medal of Honor will support 32 player online matches. They showed that they were specifically working with third-parties on accessory support to enhance gameplay options.
Nintendo then shifted focus and aimed straight for the USA Todays and WSJs out there with the last twenty minutes or so. They brought out the new IP with the broad appeal that is in line with their market strategy, becaues that was the ideal moment to make it known to the world. And they succeeded spectacularly in that the major newpapers were talking about Wii Fit instead of Killzone 2 or Halo 3.
Nintendo isn't abandoning the enthusiast market. What they are doing is making a conscious effort not to abandon the people who might become gaming enthusiasts, given the right gateway.
Contrast between older gamers and younger gamers (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that it's not just "casual" games that can support an audience of people like me (assuming I'm not the only one who feels this way). I believe that it should be possible to switch difficulties on the fly inside games and I also think that developers should include a stupidly easy mode so that people like me can see more of what the game has to offer. Of course I can go and look at cheats etc, but if the developers know that people are going to do that anyway, why not just make the facility part of the package? This way, even more traditional games can be played in a more "casual" manner if the player feels like it.
Hardcore vs Casual (Score:2)
Th
Re:Never wholly geared to hardcore (Score:5, Insightful)
What do you interpret hardcore as meaning?
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But were the games TRULY hard core back then? I suppose something like Sim City came a little close, but comparing Sim City to WoW shows just how hard core things were back then.
Video games have gotten much more hard core over the years, I don't think that's even debatable.
Re:Never wholly geared to hardcore (Score:5, Insightful)
SNES had plenty of challenging games that kept you playing for months because they were that good -- FFVI, Killer Instinct, etc. I still don't know a single person who has beaten Captain America and the Avengers for SNES (Genesis, yeah, but not SNES because in Genesis Captain could at least block with his shield...)
I don't think games have gotten more hardcore at all. In fact I think they've gotten *less* so in terms of challenge. How many people whined and moaned about how difficult the Ninja Gaiden for Xbox was? Those people were all spoiled by the fact that every game that's released nowadays is beatable by even remotely dedicated players. Ninja Gaiden 2 eats Xbox's NG alive in terms of difficulty on every level except Master Ninja (which was added later just for kicks, and isn't really relevant because one could have always slid the difficulty meter all the way to max in Baldur's Gate making that game impossible but who cares).
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How many games today contain the message "You lose. Start over."?
That was almost every game back in the 80's. Lost to the final boss? Start at the beginning.
Not everyone was playing Nintendo... (Score:2)
Meanwhile over in Europe we had Atari STs, Amigas, Sega Megadrives and later PCs- how we wished we could play a pink princess like you.
Yes yes the Atari's, Amiga, Speccy, Commodore, Colecovision, etc, were out during that time. But in the mid 80s to late if you asked a child what a videogame was 99% would simply state "Nintendo" or name a Nintendo franchise. That is what Winckle was alluding to.
I believe the point the OP was trying to make was that during the original 8-bit NES's era of greatest success in the U.S., it was *nowhere* near as dominant in Western Europe. (Certainly not in the UK at any rate).
In fact, do you remember the Sega Master System, the NES's "flop" competitor as far as U.S. and Japanese markets were concerned? Well, believe it or not, the NES was outsold by the Master System in the UK, (partly due to better marketing).
However, this obscures the bigger point- that unlike
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Ever played Rygar? lol
Re:Softcore (Score:4, Insightful)
I can't wait to buy Halo 3 and GTA IV
Oh snap, that's the sound of your point flying out the window.
Re:Softcore (Score:4, Insightful)
Point is, no platform is immune from sequels. But who cares if they have new elements/stories/etc. Mario 1-3 are all basically the same story [well except USA #2], but they're still fun. So were the SNES and N64 versions of "the same game."
Nothing wrong with a fresh sequel. It's when they re-use story/graphics/maps/levels/etc wholesale that it becomes a ripoff [e.g. bomberman 1 vs. 2].
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Re:Softcore (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh wait, you meant that games "hardcore gamers" play *aren't* blasé, infinite sequels. Sorry, I was confused by your contradictory point.
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My theory is that there's very little difference between the mental dedication of Halo and Rayman Rabbids, but that the "badass" meter reads high enough for FPSs that most people who play them on a regular basis, tout the games, and themselves as "hardcore gamers".
Maybe they're slightly re
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I'd be happy if there were a Final Fantasy title on the Wii.
The Final Fantasy games that were on the SNES were
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Videogames are meant to be fun - Nintendo is actually being innovative in finding new ways to be fun (as opposed to the "another CGI movie with talking hamsters" dig). It's Sony/Microsoft that are releasing yet another FPS/Madden game, again and again and again.
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In many ways, it's children who are
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Maybe they all shouldn't be. If you want games to evolve into a respected art form maybe there should be ones that have some other goal other than "fun".
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Yeah, they should instead concentrate on releasing the exact same FPS games and car racing games with shinier textures! Mario Party may be the eighth in the series, but the gameplay is entirely different from all of the previous iterations (though the textures are shinier, that's secondary).
Nintendo is not abandoning new IPs; they are abandoning the idea that the only way to improve is by adding better graphics and more
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I want games involving more than one button. I want to be challenged a little bit instead of having watered down puzzles that a 10 year old could solve. I want a storyline and character development that is slightly more involved than the last episode of Pokemon.
I
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I don't. I want a game that I can play without having to take a college course. I want a game that will let me get out of this damn chair and step away from this damn monitor. I want to PLAY!!. Wiiiiiii!!
Except.... (Score:2)
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I'm hardcore, and I started gaming on NES, so therefore the NES was hardcore.
The games I that I'm better than other people at, and take several workweek's worth of hours are the hardcore ones.
Hardcore = Petulant.
What games are hardcore? (Score:2)
LOL (Score:2)
Oh wait, by "young adult" you may have meant "single male under 35 who still survives on pizza and ramen and spends all weekend blowing shit up while connected online to his single male friends," forgetting that some of us, despite still being young adults, have careers and relationships to maintain.
Re:If you watched their E3 press conference... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think once Super Smash Bros. and a Monkey Ball game manage to come out they'll be fine in my eyes. Both of these games could be considered fairly casual, but my friends and I played them relentlessly when we were back in high school. We'd have ten hour Monkey Ball or Smash Bros. sessions down in my friends basement, trading off the controller for single player aspects of the game or going heads up in multiplayer, trying to break each others records or square off for bragging rights. You can even play Wii Sports pretty hardcore as a few of my friends and I found out over last Thanksgiving when I brought my new Wii home and we ended up playing Wii boxing for almost four hours straight. Even my friend's dad got involved and had a hell of a time.
They reason they spent so much time on Wii Fit is because it's completely new and hasn't really be done before. They want to make sure that it gets good press coverage and that people are aware of it. They want to give something new to the casual gamers who really haven't had much since Wii Sports. You can't build up this great system for the more casual gamers and then leave them out in the cold. With Mario Kart, Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime: Corruption, and Super Smash Bros. all coming out within the next six months or so, I'd say they've got their core pretty well covered.
If for whatever reason you consider hardcore gaming to by violent or mature rated games (in which case I think you're an idiot) then there's plenty of fun to be had with The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Resident Evil 4, and Manhunt 2 as well as the new Resident Evil game when they come out. I'm pretty sure that there will eventually be plenty of shooters and other such games on the console as well. It's only been out for abouth eight months now, give it some time.
I think the problem is that most people tend to think of themselves as hardcore gamers when it's convenient for them to say so. I'd wager that a majority of the people who claim that they are, really aren't. Just remember that because you play a lot of video games doesn't necessarily make you hardcore. Did you explore Twilight Princess without a guide to get all of the extra items? Do you do speed runs through the original Super Mario Bros. in order to see who could get the best time? Have you played a game competitively at a tournament? If you don't answer yes to questions like that, I don't consider you hardcore. You just spend too much time playing video games. Get over yourself.
So until someone can come up with a legitimate reason to suggest that Nintendo has abandoned their core or stopped caring about hardcore gamers, I think you're all just a bunch of whiny bitches looking for something to piss and moan about. Either Nintendo never was hardcore and stopped catering to their core ages ago or you're completely off base and full of crap. Maybe some of you are under the delusion that you're in Nintendo's core when you really aren't. I just think it's a load of crap no matter how you slice it.
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I suppose if you don't enjoy bowling then Wii bowling isn't very fun. There are several other games in Wii Sports that you might enjoy though. I've found Wii Boxing to be incredibly fun when played with friends. To say Wii Bowling isn't difficult doesn't sound right. I'd say that it has a low learni
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Normally I couldn't care less about grammar mistakes, but people misusing that phrase are in almost all cases just using it to sound smart. The indignance comes from the fact that over the years I (and many like me) have trained myself to use small words to avoid the Poindexter image. Sometimes, I'll get excited about a subject and forget to watch myself when I talk (usually when I'm drunk) and start dropping preternaturally's and vacillate's and if I'm lucky I get blank stares just when I'm really starting