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iPods Don't Run OS X

kdawson posted about 7 years ago | from the all-you-need-is-an-undocumented-ls-option dept.

OS X 164

Redrum writes "Everyone thinks that Apple's iPod runs an OS called Pixo, and that the iPhone ushered in a brand new epoch based on OS X. That myth has been busted: the iPod runs Apple's own Mach/BSD kernel, and Pixo is only used as a graphics layer. Daniel Eran outlines the story behind Pixo and what OS X means for Apple. It's no joke; the story was confirmed by Tim Monroe, a member of Apple's QuickTime engineering team, as is easy to verify yourself." Update: 07/15 19:48 GMT by KD : Turns out to be an April Fools joke.

cancel ×

164 comments

actually.. (5, Funny)

jimbug (1119529) | about 7 years ago | (#19868871)

my iPod runs linux.

Re:actually.. (2, Funny)

voraistos (1128439) | about 7 years ago | (#19869113)

My ipod is cooler: There is no screen, no power adapter, and it runs specially-compiled-for-my-brain closed-source software called "sing in your head". the problem is it needs special power supply such as expensive wine and Pink Floyd DRM'ed songs need extra weed to get full quality playback.

Re:actually.. (4, Funny)

Night Goat (18437) | about 7 years ago | (#19869553)

I got one of those a while back. Does yours ever get stuck in a loop? Mine does, and it's infuriating! Good thing I picked it up cheap.

Re:actually.. (2, Funny)

tsa (15680) | about 7 years ago | (#19869871)

Mine always gets stuck in a loop after watching a Will It Blend? [willitblend.com] video.

Re:actually.. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869633)

You poor bitch.

Re:actually.. (1)

smenor (905244) | about 7 years ago | (#19869899)

Indeed

For those who haven't tried it, download and install iPod Linux [ipodlinux.org] sometime.

Nothing else will give you such an appreciate for the time and effort Apple put into the thing.

Old April Fool's Joke (5, Informative)

billatq (544019) | about 7 years ago | (#19868907)

This is an April Fool's Joke, and an old one too: http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/news/comments/dev eloping-quicktime-apps-for-ipod/ [ilounge.com]

Re:Old April Fool's Joke (1)

Nasarius (593729) | about 7 years ago | (#19869031)

Whatever happened to the rule that "jokes" are supposed to be funny?

Re:Old April Fool's Joke (4, Funny)

neo8750 (566137) | about 7 years ago | (#19869195)

Whatever happened to the rule that "jokes" are supposed to be funny?
You must be new here...

Re:Old April Fool's Joke (4, Funny)

HillaryWBush (882804) | about 7 years ago | (#19869999)

Sure must be new here. The funny part is that the summary used to say "iPods Run OS X" and now says "iPods Don't Run OS X". The "This is not a joke" in the blurb remains standing. Who meta-meta-meta-moderates the meta-meta-moderators here?!?!

Re:Old April Fool's Joke (3, Insightful)

91degrees (207121) | about 7 years ago | (#19869429)

This is why I hate April Fools day.

Granted, you do get some good jokes, but most of the time people who are not remotely funny spend the day playing unfunny jokes on each other. But you're not allowed to complain, because then you get accused of having no sense of humour.

Re:Old April Fool's Joke (5, Insightful)

MoxFulder (159829) | about 7 years ago | (#19871125)

Granted, you do get some good jokes, but most of the time people who are not remotely funny spend the day playing unfunny jokes on each other. But you're not allowed to complain, because then you get accused of having no sense of humour.
Not to mention the fact that it's freakin' July!

PLEASE HELP (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869117)

The FBI keep hacking my Slashdot and Kuro5hin accounts and changing my passwords so I get locked out! This is almost certainly because I am now well-known to them as a whistle-blower (I've uncovered such frauds as the moon landing hoax, the face on Mars, all sorts of stuff on 911), is there any way to stop this happening? (Posting anonymously for obviosu reasons)

Re:PLEASE HELP (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869187)

Yes, take your meds.

Re:PLEASE HELP (1)

sentientbeing (688713) | about 7 years ago | (#19869361)

Lock yourself indoors, and for Jobs' sake dont use a computer - Its probably poisoned or infected with fleas.

Re:PLEASE HELP (5, Informative)

technos (73414) | about 7 years ago | (#19869565)

You know how the CIA uses reverse-engineered alien technology to scan your brain, right? Spread frequency directional RF in the low 8GHz range at between 1400 and 1750w. When exposed to the field, your neurons phase-lock to some minor harmonic when they fire. Then they just sit back and listen to all your remaining brain cells chirp away.

How the FBI 'hacks' your computer isn't much different, but it's a lot easier, and shares some of the same gear. Instead of using the RF field to modulate your neurons, they use it to induce a weak localized EM field in the computer and then read back the disturbances in that field from the harmonic corresponding to the sub-gigahertz bus of the machine into a low-cost simulator.

The great news is you don't really have to do anything out of the ordinary to counter the attack. You already have plenty of tin-foil on hand from making your hat. (They wouldn't be scanning your machine if they could scan your brain directly, after all.)

What you need to do is enclose your computer, peripherals, and cables with two layers of foil, shiny side out. (It increases the relative capacitance of the foil layer.) Be especially sure to cover any openings in the case, like fans and vent holes. I recommend a little Super Glue here and there in trouble areas such as the keyboard, where typing through the layer of foil tends to deform it.

The monitor is best dealt with by making a hood out of cardboard, furring strip and foil. Glue a couple of furring strips 8-10 inches longer than your head is away from the monitor to the top of it, and then build a cardboard box around both the monitor and your head, using the furring strips as support. Some people have reported better results ridding themselves of the van parked across the street by cladding both sides of the cardboard with two sheets of tin-foil. The reasoning is that the induced EM field in the monitor tends to be stronger. I'm doubtful of the claim, but it can't hurt!

The hole at the bottom for your head can be left comfortably large to fit your skull through supposedly. I typically build a little 'skirt' out of strips of foil long enough to cover down past my shoulders and then staple them to the bottom of the hood just to be sure though.

Re:PLEASE HELP (1)

DreadfulGrape (398188) | about 7 years ago | (#19869677)

Give that man some "Funny" mod points!

Re:PLEASE HELP (1, Flamebait)

mpaque (655244) | about 7 years ago | (#19869901)

+5 Funny!

I can't believe the /. moderators du jour rated this +4 Informative.

That's a joke, son. A flag waver. You're built too low. The fast ones go over your head. Ya got a hole in your glove. I keep pitchin' 'em and you keep missin' 'em. Ya gotta keep your eye on the ball. Eye. Ball. I almost had a gag, son. Joke, that is.

Re:PLEASE HELP (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19870145)

I can't believe the /. moderators du jour rated this +4 Informative.
You must be new here.

Re:PLEASE HELP (1)

technos (73414) | about 7 years ago | (#19870237)

Moderators are being nice to me, that's all.

Funny doesn't give Karma since the revamp, but Informative does.

Not that it matters much with the cap, which I have only myself to blame for.

Re:PLEASE HELP (3, Insightful)

MMC Monster (602931) | about 7 years ago | (#19870697)

Marking it informative also acts as both a meta joke and may be correct in the off chance that the poster was serious.

I always try to moderate as if the poster was being dead serious. Things are much more surreal that way.

offtopic (5, Informative)

Pharmboy (216950) | about 7 years ago | (#19870291)

Funny gets you no karma, Informative does, so some mods will mod informative to give the post a boost in ranking AND karma to the poster.

The logic in "funny" not giving karma is based on the idea that it is easier to be funny than to be smart, and they want to promote "smart" more than "funny", which makes sense.

Technically, you can write a post, get it modded +5 Funny and lose karma points. Example: your post gets modded up and down as funny and offtopic. 8 mods Funny, 3 mods Offtopic = -3 Karma. Modding Insightful, Interesting, etc. offsets that.

You should read the faq. All of it. That is where you will learn how a post can technically be modded as +5 Flamebait. (I have seen it) -1 Flamebait and +6 Underrated = +5 Flamebait.

Re:PLEASE HELP (1)

Budenny (888916) | about 7 years ago | (#19870173)

Oh, thank you for this. it brought tears to my eyes!

Re:PLEASE HELP (0, Troll)

Vexorian (959249) | about 7 years ago | (#19870607)

oh my gawd somebody give this guy a -2 dontfeedthetroll tag.

Re:PLEASE HELP (1)

Paperweight (865007) | about 7 years ago | (#19870647)

Alcoa and Alcan stock just jumped 10 points in after-hours trading!

How to survive the coming collapse (1)

duffbeer703 (177751) | about 7 years ago | (#19870887)

It's a new paradigm, and everybody who doesn't buy, now, will be priced out forever. Anybody who does buy will be rewarded with a lifetime of riches, as their property will continue its 30% yearly price increase.

Renters, and anybody born in a future generation, will not be able to afford a $10,000,000 starter home in 15 years. They will live in tent cities, and Hondas.

This asset bubble is different than all of the others - it will never slow down, or pop. The gains are permanent.

That's what they all said, but in reality the future is bleak.

  Without 6% they were nothing. They built a house of straw. The thundering machines sputtered and stopped. Their leaders talked and talked and talked. But nothing could stem the avalanche. Their world crumbled. The cities exploded. A whirlwind of looting, a firestorm of fear. Men began to feed on men.

On the roads it was a white line nightmare. Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice. And in this maelstrom of decay, ordinary men were battered and smashed.

Except for one man armed with an AK-47, and a Honda full of silver.

Re:PLEASE HELP (0, Troll)

Joe The Dragon (967727) | about 7 years ago | (#19871017)

the FBI does not need any high tech stuff to get in to windows M$ just give them a backdoor

Re:PLEASE HELP (4, Funny)

dgatwood (11270) | about 7 years ago | (#19869957)

... is there any way to stop this happening?

Quit using your username as your password. Also, quit using the word "password" as your password. Finally, stop using 12345.

Yours,
The FBI

Not an April Fool's Joke (1)

acidrain (35064) | about 7 years ago | (#19869307)

After years of spoofs about running Mac OS X on the iPod, from a macoshints.com April Fools Joke in 2005, to the fake YouTube video regularly unearthed to titillate the readers of Digg, it turns out that truth was that iPods have been running OS X all along. Or at least that makes for a good story.

It really isn't that unlikely or hard for Apple to use the same microkernel on the iPod. Calling it the "same OS" is strictly correct, even if slightly deceiving.

Re:Not an April Fool's Joke (1, Informative)

antime (739998) | about 7 years ago | (#19869353)

The iPods use ARM7-based CPUs. They do not have an MMU, which means you cannot run Darwin on it. Eg. the iPod Linux project is based on uClinux which does not require an MMU.

Re:Old April Fool's Joke (1)

mh101 (620659) | about 7 years ago | (#19869651)

The "Quicktime Movie player" link perhaps, but the main article is dated July 15, 2007, not April 1.

What a bunch of dumb fucking gullible assholes. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19870905)

Quality control, please.

Fucking hello?

HELLO?

Mach != MacOSX (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19868909)

I think the new thing about the upcoming generation is that they will use _MacOSX_ as a _UI_ layer, not the kernel.
That way it gets the benefits of all the underlying graphics/sound/presentation infrastructure. Right?

Re:Mach != MacOSX (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869709)

No, the iPhone runs Mach and has BSD userland, as TFA's linked articles makes obvious:

iPhone OS X Architecture: the BSD Unix Userland [roughlydrafted.com]

iPhone OS X Architecture: Disk, Shell, and Password Security [roughlydrafted.com]

iPhone OS X Architecture: the Mach Kernel and RAM [roughlydrafted.com]

Leopard, Vista and the iPhone OS X Architecture [roughlydrafted.com]

Re:Mach != MacOSX (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | about 7 years ago | (#19869779)

From what I understand, the iPhone will mostly be running widget-type apps -- essentially AJAX apps on top of Safari.

I could be entirely wrong, though. But I still strongly doubt it'll be anything as heavy as Quartz.

Re:Mach != MacOSX (1)

smoker2 (750216) | about 7 years ago | (#19869907)

essentially AJAX apps on top of Safari.
Oh, you mean like *web pages* ?
Woohoo, look Marge, I'm a troll ...
iPhone apps are web - pages
iPhone apps are web - pages !

Re:Mach != MacOSX (1)

gig (78408) | about 7 years ago | (#19869987)

> From what I understand, the iPhone will mostly be running widget-type apps -- essentially AJAX apps on top of Safari.
> I could be entirely wrong, though. But I still strongly doubt it'll be anything as heavy as Quartz.

Even an Ajax app running in Safari requires a graphics layer. Quartz is not heavy, it ran in 2001 on computers that were 5 years old at the time. Windows Vista it is not.

Why Snojob? (1)

haluness (219661) | about 7 years ago | (#19868923)

From the article it looks like they used a variant of SNOBOL. I wonder why such a language was chosen? Was it just a geeky decision?

Re:Why Snojob? (2, Insightful)

sholden (12227) | about 7 years ago | (#19868991)

Because it was a joke, and SNOJOB is the coolest name the joke writer could think of, plus rot-13d SNOBOL is just so stupid it should be an obvious joke.

faboby? (1)

jack455 (748443) | about 7 years ago | (#19869441)

'faboby' is snobol rot13'd right? i don't get it.

Re:faboby? (4, Funny)

BorgCopyeditor (590345) | about 7 years ago | (#19870733)

All the SNOBOL source code is rot-13'd, so when it compiles, the executable cannot be reverse-engineered. It's mathematically impossible! All the same, a kernel module subjects the binary file itself to double-rot-13 encryption, for extra security.

April Fools! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19868959)

More fine "editing" by kdawson. It was a fucking APRIL FOOLS JOKE. This guy is why Slashdot is a JOKE. Nothing to see, move along.

Re:April Fools! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869089)

More fine "editing" by kdawson. It was a fucking APRIL FOOLS JOKE. This guy is why Slashdot is a JOKE. Nothing to see, move along.

Now now. We don't want to hurt Zonk's feelings by giving all the credit to kdawson. Zonk has worked very hard to lower the bar, too.

Re:April Fools! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869607)

If this is what kdawson believes, why should I believe his stories on government oppression or global warming?

Re:April Fools! (1)

Frosty Piss (770223) | about 7 years ago | (#19870223)

If this is what kdawson believes, why should I believe his stories on government oppression or global warming?

Listen, pal, GWB says Global Warming is all in our silly little liberal heads, and China is our friend. Are you suggesting our President would mislead us? I'm shocked, SHOCKED I SAY!

fight those religious zealots! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19868973)

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/ [prophetofdoom.net]
 
FUCK ISLAM!

OS X != Darwin (5, Insightful)

argent (18001) | about 7 years ago | (#19869019)

Oh dear, it turns out the iPod is running Mac OS X--with a Mach kernel and a Unix userland--and has been for years.

Nonsense.

What this listing shows is not an iPod running "Mac OS X". It shows an iPod that may be running "a Mach-based version of UNIX", presumably a variant of Darwin. Darwin is not OS X. This would be like finding a copy of "vmlinuz" in an embedded device and claiming it's running Ubuntu.

Re:OS X != Darwin == OS X 1.0 (1A543a) (0, Offtopic)

DrTime (838124) | about 7 years ago | (#19869735)

My iPhone upon sync wants me to send a file to Apple containing the following information: Auto Submit = Yes Bug Type = 109 Process = Mobile Mail OS Version = OS X 1.0 (1A543a) SysInfoMachineConfigKey = iPhone1,1 SysInfoOSVersionKey = 1.0:aA543a I am no OS X expert, but, well yoiu decide what the iPhone is running. I had to truncate the file due the /. junk in the trunk detector going off.. Details (I hope Apple is right and there is no personal information in this: Process: MobileMail [31] Path: /Applications/MobileMail.app/MobileMail Version: N/A (N/A) Code Type: 0000000C (Native) Effective UID: 0 Parent Process: SpringBoard [15] Date/Time: 2007-07-15 06:13:12.693 -0400 OS Version: OS X 1.0 (1A543a) Report Version: 6 Exception Type: EXC_BAD_ACCESS Exception Codes: KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS at 0xe7ffe405 Crashed Thread: 0 Thread 0 Crashed: 0 libobjc.A.dylib 1 Message 2 Message 3 Message 4 Message 5 Foundation 6 CoreFoundation 7 Foundation 8 Foundation 9 MobileMail 10 UIKit 11 CoreFoundation 12 CoreFoundation 13 CoreFoundation 14 CoreFoundation 15 GraphicsServices 16 UIKit 17 UIKit 18 UIKit 19 MobileMail 20 MobileMail Thread 1: 0 libSystem.B.dylib 1 libSystem.B.dylib 2 GraphicsServices 3 libSystem.B.dylib Thread 2: 0 libSystem.B.dylib 1 libSystem.B.dylib 2 CoreFoundation 3 CoreFoundation 4 WebCore 5 libSystem.B.dylib Thread 3: 0 libSystem.B.dylib 1 libSystem.B.dylib 2 libSystem.B.dylib Thread 4: 0 libSystem.B.dylib 1 libSystem.B.dylib 2 CoreFoundation 3 libSystem.B.dylib got tired of snipping here.

Re:OS X != Darwin (1)

v1 (525388) | about 7 years ago | (#19870057)

my favorite "uh, no." in that article was

That's not very revealing. But if we list the contents of the Device folder using ls with the undocumented option af (for "all files"?), we get a far different picture:

[Kant:/Volumes/iDegger/iPod_Control/Device] monroe% ls -laf


"undocumented" l, a, and f flags? "uh, no." Though I must admit I was curious enough to pull out my pod and look to see what all was really in that folder, which of course was the expected "not much". the joy!ppef I could actually see Apple doing to throw you off the track of what the files really were, but then to do the actual hiding with rot-13? "uh, no." There's a reason two articles up there is a thread on the Zune's DRM being cracked, and not Apple's.

Anyone that got to the link to click before realizing this was a fraud needs more edjumacation.

Re:OS X != Darwin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19870255)

Well if Ubuntu released a mobile handheld computer running its software distribution and called it "Ubuntoo" it would be the same thing.

The iPhone quite obviously is running the same OS as the Mac, from its kernel to its development frameworks to its graphics libraries. This article is contrasting the iPod's ARM architecture with the Mac OS X software and the convergence with the iPhone, which will quite obviously become the foundation for new generations of iPods, as well as other embedded devices. The Apple TV runs the same OS on low power Intel parts.

Introducing the SNOJOB legend and bringing up Pixo just made the story a more interesting throwback. If you're getting upset, maybe you're taking things too seriously.

I thought that was Darwin? (1)

fermion (181285) | about 7 years ago | (#19869029)

Isn't the microkernel Darwin? Mac OS X is the more or less device independent higher level layers. This is why we could move Mac OS X so easily to the Intel platform. Even if it is the same codebase, it mast be a subset. For example, I can imagine Quaetz had to be modified to run on a smaller footprint.

I hope this is not the beginning of a rebranding thing, where everything apple sells runs OS X. If it is, people are going to by a new device expecting a certain level of functionality, and that level will not exist. Mac OS X, like MS Vista, will become have random service levels, except all at the same price.

Re:I thought that was Darwin? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 7 years ago | (#19869107)

Isn't the microkernel Darwin?
The kernel is XNU. It's not really a microkernel though (technically it could be called a single-server microkernel, but there's not much difference between that and a monolithic kernel). Darwin is the kernel + userland, including things like Launchd.

Mac OS X is the more or less device independent higher level layers
OS X is Darwin + Quartz + a load of frameworks (Cocoa, Carbon, QuickTime, etc). While the higher-layer stuff doesn't depend heavily on specific hardware (except for some stuff like CoreImage), it does depend in a number of places on Mach ports, making it non-portable to non-Mach operating systems without some form of compatibility layer.

Even if it is the same codebase, it mast be a subset. For example, I can imagine Quaetz had to be modified to run on a smaller footprint.
If it's XNU (which it might well not be, since the second article is an april fools joke and the first is Roughly Drafted), it could well be OPENSTEP. OPENSTEP ran on a 25MHz 68040 with a megapixel display, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility to imagine it running on an iPod.

Got the reasons backwards... (1)

argent (18001) | about 7 years ago | (#19869367)

Isn't the microkernel Darwin?

No, the soi-disant Microskernel is Mach, and it's not a Microkernel in any useful sense.

This is why we could move Mac OS X so easily to the Intel platform.

The OS kernel in Darwin ran on Intel long before it ran on the Power PC. The GUI layers over the UNIX kernel and utilities are probably *less* device independent than most of the system, due to their close integration with the GPU and OpenGL (have a look at all the Apple-specific OpenGL extensions on a Mac video card some time). The ancestors of the components in Darwin - BSD, Mach, the shells and utilities - were designed (after Bell Labs failed to acquire a Multics system because AT&T dropped out of the project) for hardware independence from the start. The first actual port (from the PDP-11 to the Interdata 7/32) took place a few years later in 1976 (the year the Apple I shipped), and have run on every major hardware platform from thumb drives to mainframes... let alone common systems like Intel.

It's not that the GUI was hardware independent so you could shove a new kernel under it. It's that the underlying OS was designed from the ground up for hardware independence before Apple existed.

Re:Got the reasons backwards... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19870023)

thought the kernel was referred to as xnu and was a whack hybrid of mach and freebsd kernel?

Yeah... (1)

DreadfulGrape (398188) | about 7 years ago | (#19869039)

... even without prior knowledge of the joke, what do you think the chances are that an Apple employee could publish this and still have a job the next day?

Re:Yeah... (1)

larry bagina (561269) | about 7 years ago | (#19869105)

Probably less likely than kdawson publishing this and still having a job the next tomorrow.

Re:Yeah... (1)

realinvalidname (529939) | about 7 years ago | (#19869743)

even without prior knowledge of the joke, what do you think the chances are that an Apple employee could publish this and still have a job the next day?

Tim wrote this long after Steve's return to Apple, and has a history of writing outlandish April Fool's articles. The previous year, he claimed that he'd been slipped a CD-ROM from unknown sources that ran the entire QuickTime stack on every Microsoft-licensed platform: WinCE, XBox, etc. The 2005 article cited here was a little infamous because MacTech publication slipped so badly that the article actually came out in June. Still, when I saw him at WWDC, he said that he couldn't believe anyone had fallen for it even then, given the utter obsolescence and obscurity of SNOBOL, pushed over the top by his fanciful "SNOJOB". Anyways, Tim's activities still seem to be OK with management -- we QuickTime developers appreciate his openness and availability on the list.

Ironically, the one thing Apple won't let him do is put his name on his own books ( 1 [amazon.com] , 2 [amazon.com] ), which are officially attributed to "Apple".

Re:Yeah... (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 7 years ago | (#19870319)

More to the point, what are the chances that Roughly Drafted would post anything that wasn't complete idiocy? I have the following line in my user CSS file:

A[HREF*="roughlydrafted"]:after { content: " [IDIOT WARNING]"!important ; color: red }
It stops me from accidentally clicking on their links.

I was hooked until the guy showed his ls skills (3, Funny)

INeededALogin (771371) | about 7 years ago | (#19869073)

Come on... undocumented ls -af for "all files". That should of thrown all sorts of bs flags.

Re:I was hooked until the guy showed his ls skills (2, Funny)

gEvil (beta) (945888) | about 7 years ago | (#19869157)

Come on... undocumented ls -af for "all files". That should of thrown all sorts of bs flags.

Hmmm, using the -bs flag just gives me some numbers before the file/directory listings...

Re:I was hooked until the guy showed his ls skills (1)

hedrick (701605) | about 7 years ago | (#19869821)

There's nothing undocumented about -af. -a gives all files including hidden. -f supposedly omits the default alphabetical sorting (though it doesn't seem to have any effect when I tried it). Use of ls -laf is perfectly plausible in this context. It's later in the article where it becomes a bit hard to believe.

Re:I was hooked until the guy showed his ls skills (1)

INeededALogin (771371) | about 7 years ago | (#19869973)

There's nothing undocumented about -af

You obviously missed the sarcasm of my post which was to point out that the article was BS for stating that ls -af happens to be some undocumented feature.

Re:I was hooked until the guy showed his ls skills (1)

kasperd (592156) | about 7 years ago | (#19870209)

-f supposedly omits the default alphabetical sorting (though it doesn't seem to have any effect when I tried it).
What file system are you using? A file system can achieve the best performance if it sorts the names internally, but it doesn't have to be alphabetically though, might as well be based on the length of the file name and a hash of the characters. Using ls with -f is going to be kernel and file system dependent. Even if you happen to be using one of those file systems that doesn't sort file names, it could also be the case, that you were in a directory where the files had been copied to in alphabetical order.

Re:I was hooked until the guy showed his ls skills (1)

squiggleslash (241428) | about 7 years ago | (#19870125)

Actually the fact it was Roughly Drafted, one of the worst fanboi sites I've ever seen (yet one that manages to get almost every frickin' article linked to from Slashdot) should have been enough to raise a large number of flags.

This is bad, even by RD's standards.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG! (1)

HungSquirrel (790165) | about 7 years ago | (#19869123)

the iPod runs Apple's own Mach/BSD kernel

No. OSX uses a Mach kernel and a BSD userland. Why do so many articles get this wrong?

Re:Wrong, wrong, WRONG! (1)

splortnik2003 (698008) | about 7 years ago | (#19869245)

According to Wikipedia: [wikipedia.org]

The BSD portion of the kernel provides the POSIX API (BSD system calls), the Unix process model atop Mach tasks, basic security policies, user and group ids, permissions, the network stack, the virtual file system code (including a filesystem independent journalling layer), cryptographic framework, System V IPC, and some of the locking primitives.
Which to me looks like part userland part kernel, but I'm not sure I could put a very fine point on the distinction.

Re:Wrong, wrong, WRONG! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869531)

OP was wrong. BSD itself is a standard fat kernel like Linux or Solaris' SVR4-ish kernel.

Mach can be implemented as a microkernel, but it didn't really work out very well in practice. This is the microkernel architecture with an OS hosted as a personality, used in IBM's Workplace OS or OSF / Digital Unix.

NeXT (and Mac OS X) used the BSD kernel with the architecture of Mach injected into it, making it neither a microkernel nor a standard BSD kernel, but something that borrows from both. Above the Mach/BSD kernel is a conventional Unix userland, allowing Mac OS X to run regular POSIX software. Macs ship with a standard distribution of BSD software, GNU tools, and other common "Linux distro" software.

Recall that Linux is technically only a kernel; most of the software that ships with it and is associated as being part of Linux (including being targeted by Microsoft's patents threats) is really just Unix/GNU software, and is part of Mac OS X as well.

Unraveling the Mac OS X Microkernel Myth: What is Mach? [roughlydrafted.com] .

Re:Wrong, wrong, WRONG! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869903)

NeXT (and Mac OS X) used the BSD kernel with the architecture of Mach injected into it, making it neither a microkernel nor a standard BSD kernel, but something that borrows from both.
Is this the same way that Mklinux worked, w.r.t. Mach and Linux?

You're Wrong, wrong, WRONG! (4, Informative)

r00t (33219) | about 7 years ago | (#19869275)

Mach doesn't support much of anything until you add BSD.

The kernel contains a large chunk of the BSD kernel. Take BSD, rip out the memory management and scheduler, graft it onto a supposed microkernel that long outgrew "micro", and there you have it.

It's a trainwreak of a kernel, proving that the kernel alone doesn't make the OS.

Re:Wrong, wrong, WRONG! (2, Informative)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | about 7 years ago | (#19869289)

OSX uses a Mach kernel...

Mach is a microkernel, not a kernel. Classically, you had to run a OS "personality" on top of Mach to get a full set of kernel features (things like a filesystem, processes, and users are not found in Mach). Back when Mach was a hot topic in the mid 90s, there were POSIX and OS/2 personalities being developed.

OS/X's XNU kernel [kernelthread.com] uses a combination of the Mach microkernel with the BSD kernel - they're co-equal, not a BSD "personality" on top of Mach.

Re:Wrong, wrong, WRONG! (1)

nuzak (959558) | about 7 years ago | (#19869603)

XNU is probably closer to the design of Dragonfly BSD than Mach/BSD. And thank god for that -- Mach is otherwise just glacial performance-wise. It was a fine piece of research work, sure, but when DEC decided to actually base a production OS on it, it gave microkernels a bad name that persists to this day. Which is too bad really ... microkernels have come a long way since, but now the situation is opposite: they're stuck in research when they need to break out into production.

NT is still technically a microkernel, and it does all right when embedded, but the godawful Win32 API is now the OS for all intents and purposes.

In the end though, even though I know all these theoretical details about how my OS is built and functions, I still just want to Make It Go.

Incidentally, WinCE is hardly dead... (4, Informative)

argent (18001) | about 7 years ago | (#19869261)

Apple's OS X is actually doing what Microsoft promised but failed to do over a decade of WinCE development.

Now, let me say up front that my own experience with Windows CE based devices has not been a bed of roses, but then neither has my experience with desktop Windows... which is a market success despite failing to deliver what Microsoft promised. Not only is Pocket PC, now known as Windows Mobile, used in an awful lot of devices... but it's even penetrated the stronghold of its arch-rival Palm. Yes, Palm created that situation by dropping the ball around 2002, but Palm tried their own embedded UNIX as well as their inevitably doomed BeOS spinoff and ended up deciding to embrace the "failed" Windows CE anyway.

In addition, there's a plethora of applications for it, something that Apple shows no interest in even making possible. No, supporting fancy web-based applets is not at all comparable to running actual local applications... particularly when it's rather likely those "iPhone apps" will happily run on Pocket PC as well: if not now, just as soon as someone ports Webcore to it.

And that's just *one* application of Windows CE. You can't license Apple's ARM port of Darwin or any of the rest of the software in the iPod or iPhone, like you can Windows CE. There's no developer's kit, no porting kit, no product.

So not only is Windows CE not a failure, it's not even the same kind of product as Apple's closed fork of OS X on the iPhone or their closed fork of Darwin on the iPod. Most of what Microsoft promised, Apple's declining to even offer. And Microsoft has done a surprisingly good job with Windows CE... in many ways it's a far better and more secure product than desktop Windows.

Does it make money for Microsoft? Who cares, other than Microsoft stockholders? Does it do what Microsoft promised? Absolutely.

Re:Incidentally, WinCE is hardly dead... (1)

nuzak (959558) | about 7 years ago | (#19869639)

WinCE has a lot to recommend it technically (though I thought the CE name was dead now?) but the Windows mentality still pervades some of the devices, representing a serious Inability To Get It. I found myself helping my gf's stepfather with his Axim, where he found he couldn't move a map file to the CF card. It turned out that the map file was opened by a running application that was backgrounded and hung. I ended up rebooting the device to make it work. Unbelievable. Same damn annoying filesystem and process semantics on a device that doesn't need it. You never have this kind of problem on a Palm.

Re:Incidentally, WinCE is hardly dead... (1)

gig (78408) | about 7 years ago | (#19869945)

> So not only is Windows CE not a failure, it's not even the same kind of product as Apple's

Window CE is clearly a failure.

- financial: no profits, many losses
- market share: the installed base is only about 7 million in a market that is 1000 million per year
- technical: after more than 10 years, cannot view a real Web page

You're right it's not the same kind of product as Apple's.

Check out the date (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869269)

Some people are saying that this article is from April Fool's day, but the exact date isn't in the article anywhere.

However, one thing you can determine is that the article was written in 2004! See http://www.mactech.com/articles/ [mactech.com] , and look at 'volume 20 - 2004'. That, plus 'copyright 2004' in the source code clips kind of give it away...

And it's volume 20, issue 4, which hints at April, but doesn't prove it.

Someone else pointed out the 'ls -af' command has got to be an 'April Fool' clue too. All I know is that I've reformatted my FAT partition enough times that any hidden files have long been destroyed, but my ipod keeps on working.

Re:Check out the date (1)

TheNetAvenger (624455) | about 7 years ago | (#19869679)

All I know is that I've reformatted my FAT partition enough times that any hidden files have long been destroyed, but my ipod keeps on working.


Simple people require even simplier devices, enough said.

The MacTech article is an April Fool (1)

kgp (172015) | about 7 years ago | (#19869273)

Hmmm, they find iPod Solitaire is written in ROT-13 encoded SNOBOL using an interpreter called SNOJOB?

And the issue number is vol 20, number 4 ... which if I ROT13 then XOR with a fiboonacci sequence I find is ....

April. Hmmmm :-)

I pitty da Fool, etc, etc.

So whose joke is this one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869293)

Either Dan thought it amusing to continue the joke (despite tipping readers the wink by actually mentioning the original article was an April Fool's joke) or someone hacked his website and posted the article as a joke.

Whichever it is, this one's not in his RSS feed.

Why... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869297)

...every RoughlyDrafted article appears on Slashdot?

Payola, perhaps?

Maybe Digg and its Apple fanboys are hurting Slashdot's and OSDL's revenues THAT much?

Re:Why... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869635)

Roughly Drafted has articles every day. It's on /. once every month or two. It has more articles translated into Spanish, Russian and Hebrew by fans than articles posted here:

http://roughlydrafted.com/RD/Translations.html [roughlydrafted.com]

I doubt OSDL is being supported by an individual writing tech articles that are of general interest. Remember it was Digg that didn't like R D, and that was because of too many "Xbox aren't selling" and "Vista is late and Microsoft has never pushed the state of the art" articles.

Re:Why... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19870153)

Remember it was Digg that didn't like R D, and that was because of too many "Xbox aren't selling" and "Vista is late and Microsoft has never pushed the state of the art" articles.

I doubt being proved to have gamed digg did much for RoughlyDrafted's reputation there.

Re:Why... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19870465)

There are five trolls on Digg who keep bringing that up, and they venture out onto slashdot occasionally to bring their gospel of the evil of roughly drafted. Thank you so much for coming, but no thanks, I'm not interested in your religion.

Say hello to the diggtards for me and have a nice day.

Roughly Drafted (4, Insightful)

jdc180 (125863) | about 7 years ago | (#19869383)

Roughlydrafted is nothing more than drivel made to look like news by and for apple fanboys. It's truly funny that this apple fanboy is sourcing an April Fools joke.

Re:Roughly Drafted (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19869433)

What's funny is that he acknowledges that it's an April Fools joke, but then goes on to use it to support his claim. Actually, it's sad, not funny.

Re:Roughly Drafted (1)

His Shadow (689816) | about 7 years ago | (#19870445)

Yes, you could bother to read the article, or just continue to be an ignorant ass. Guess which option you chose?

Re:Roughly Drafted (0)

patently obvious nam (883358) | about 7 years ago | (#19870715)

Actually I find roughly drafted interesting to read. I can't vouch for the technical sophistication of Roughly Drafted in this article. The technical details of both this article and the /. commentary are beyond me. I'll assume that the article is at least partially the fruit of an embarrassing (for Roughly Drafted) April fools joke. But it does appear that iPods are running on a subset of the kernal that powers OSX. That is interesting.

If you think its drivel, its probably because you are not interested in and/or don't understand the strategic aspects of product design, development, integration, and production. You read the article and see it as drivel because it is incorrect in a technical sense and it mistakenly cites an April Fools joke (that is funny.)

In fact it is NOT a TECHNICAL article. It is a STRATEGY article. It is examines and alludes to the way Apple is using an array of standardized but flexible parts--the kernel, OS, SW, hardware, etc. to stay nimble in the marketplace and reinforce its talent for creating a system of reliable products that fit into the lives of real people (the broad majority of people, not necessarily slashdotters.) Those people are willing and happy to buy these products. Why? Because of their utility and relevance to their lives which they see as tremendously valuable. Meanwhile this allows Apple to make an oversized profit.

That healthy profit margin causes some to have great resentment toward Apple. But more importantly it is the result of an enviable strategic plan that has been well executed. Roughly Drafted (Daniel Eran Dilger) has a talent for understanding strategic plans and explaining them (even if he is a well recognized, confessed, and unrepentant Apple fanboy.) This is what makes RD interesting for me.

Terminology (4, Informative)

Sneeper (182316) | about 7 years ago | (#19869525)

Nah, the kernel is not called OS X, it's not called Mach/BSD, and it's not called Darwin. The kernel is called Xnu [wikipedia.org] .

Xnu [wikipedia.org] -- The Apple Open Source kernel, a combination of BSD, Mach, and IOKit.
Darwin [wikipedia.org] -- the Xnu kernel and BSD userland binaries and libraries. Basically the Open Source parts of OS X. Darwin is bundled as a full Unix OS.
OS X [wikipedia.org] -- Darwin + Aqua, Finder, Quartz, Quicktime, Cocoa, and the bundled graphical tools and apps.

The article would more rightly state that the iPods have always run the Xnu kernel.

While you're at it... (1)

realinvalidname (529939) | about 7 years ago | (#19869645)

...I hear that Bill Gates will give $1 to charity for every e-mail you send him. Why not put that ancient April Fool's joke on the front page too?

Re:While you're at it... (1)

rob1980 (941751) | about 7 years ago | (#19870101)

Because we're too busy beta testing a new e-mail system in exchange for free trips to Disney World!

Bleh, Roughlydrafted (1)

Doomstalk (629173) | about 7 years ago | (#19869799)

I was wondering why the article was so poorly written and aimless. Then I saw it was from roughly drafted and it all made sense

Re:Bleh, Roughlydrafted (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 7 years ago | (#19870385)

Add this to your browser's user CSS file:

A[HREF*="roughlydrafted"]:after { content: " [IDIOT WARNING]"!important ; color: red }
It will save you a lot of time in the long run.

Slashdot - April Fools everyday... (4, Funny)

TheNetAvenger (624455) | about 7 years ago | (#19869815)

Slashdot - April Fools everyday, just to appeal to the fanbois that now control it.

How much lower can your editorial responsibilities go?

This week is just ridiculous, and makes the inquirer seem credible, although /. is still less biased sadly.

Re:Slashdot - April Fools everyday... (1)

my_name_is_steve (455393) | about 7 years ago | (#19871057)

pfft. /. took years to get outta control. It took Digg 4 months.

Next: Vista cellphones (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19870141)

I guess saying ipod/iphone run OS/X is about the same as saying PocketPC's and cellphones run Vista.
The kernel will be written with compatibility in mind (overlapping API's or a subset of the same API's), but I don't believe for a minute it's the same kernel.

Hi, I'm new here. (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#19870197)

What the fuck are all of you talking about??!

Re:Hi, I'm new here. (1)

nebaz (453974) | about 7 years ago | (#19871129)

You must be new here.

pixo os (2, Interesting)

duranaki (776224) | about 7 years ago | (#19870493)

I worked with Pixo a bit back in the late 90's. Their OS was largely meant to run on top of another OS, so why people would think ipods were running pixo OS standalone is beyond me. Pixo was a great UI OS btw and they had lots of talented engineers. They mostly went work for apple after pixo imploded. :)

Slashdot lag (1, Flamebait)

jonfr (888673) | about 7 years ago | (#19870501)

Slashdot must have set a new record in posting April fools late.

Jokes (1)

Psykosys (667390) | about 7 years ago | (#19870669)

Aren't jokes supposed to be funny?

Re:Jokes (1)

youthoftoday (975074) | about 7 years ago | (#19870823)

This could be the famous American 'sense of humour' I keep hearing so much about.
But then I wouldn't know.
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