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KisMAC Developer Discontinues Project

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the when-security-tools-are-outlawed dept.

Wireless Networking 213

mgv writes to let us know that the lead developer of KisMAC, a passive wireless network discovery tool for Mac OS X, is discontinuing the project. Michael Rossberg lives in Germany and that country has recently passed laws that would make his participation dangerous. He urges visitors to take a copy of KisMAC and its source as long as the site is up, so that development might be continued outside the US or EU. From the website: "There has not been a lot of time for KisMAC lately. However the motivation for this drastic step [lies] somewhere different. German laws change and are being adapted for 'better' protection against something politicians obviously do not understand. It will become illegal to develop, use or even posses KisMAC in this banana republic [i.e., Germany]."

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apple security? (-1, Troll)

yourmomisfasterthana (1097719) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029639)

i thought apples security was "well no one really wants to break into an apple computer anyways, i mean cmon... it's an APPLE."

Re:apple security? (0, Offtopic)

Klickoris (1104419) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029653)

I prefer to break into oranges myself.

First Post? Mod parent down. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029657)

This so totally doesn't make sense and is a desperate attempt at a FP that just doesn't fly. Mod down accordingly. Just calling him out. Thanks.

Re:apple security? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029667)

... Kismac doesn't break into Apples, it lets Apples passively monitor networks and has some basic attack functionality integrated. Your post might be [vaguely] on topic if this was a discussion about an Apple firewall, but for a passive wireless network stumbler? I don't think so...

Re:apple security? (0, Redundant)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029797)

... Kismac doesn't break into Apples, it lets Apples passively monitor networks and has some basic attack functionality integrated. Your post might be [vaguely] on topic if this was a discussion about an Apple firewall, but for a passive wireless network stumbler? I don't think so...


Agreed.

In fact, the airport base stations seem to be quite secure from simple attacks.

What KisMAC demonstrates, more than any thing else, is that if you are using WEP for security, you are usually deluding yourself. A decent percentage of WEP base stations will surrender their passcode within 5-10 minutes, even if nobody is on their network.

Its that scary..

Michael

Re:apple security? (4, Informative)

eiapoce (1049910) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030371)

Sirs,

Eventually you are missing the point. KisMac is a tool that can discover APs and Point to Point wireless network, Crack WEP, Crack WAP (given a dictionary) and make Injection Attacks with selected hardware (prism cards mostly). So it's just not a purely listening software neither limited to only apple basestations (Airport).

So long the problem is that Germany choose to make illegal tampering with telecomunications, which could be good, but eventually forgot to leave a exception of fair use for research pourposes which is not good.

Enrico

such a sad day... (-1, Flamebait)

catbutt (469582) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029663)

Oh wait, this is the first I had heard of it. Nevermind.

Re:such a sad day... (1)

megaditto (982598) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030129)

I think the parent makes a good point.

What are the linux/windows alternatives to this 'product' anyways?

Re:such a sad day... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030163)

Kismet.

Seems like a waste (1)

MeditationSensation (1121241) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029665)

Hmm, couldn't he contribute anonymously somehow? Login via an encrypted protocol and send code under a "pen name" of sorts?

Re:Seems like a waste (4, Insightful)

Paradise Pete (33184) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029731)

Hmm, couldn't he contribute anonymously somehow?

Well if he were going to do that he probably wouldn't announce it.

Re:Seems like a waste (1)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030083)

Maybe thats what he's going to do? :P

Cant let his secret identity get out can he?

Its a cracking tool (0, Troll)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029673)

  • MacOS 10.3
  • reveals cloaked SSIDs
  • reveals logged in Clients (incl. MAC Addresses)
  • mapping and GPS support
  • visualization of network
  • PCAP im- and export
  • support for 802.11b & g
  • different attacks against encrypted networks
  • deauthentication attacks
  • Apple Script compatible (in newest SVN version)

Free speech is fine but I don't agree with having this tool available to non-professionals in a nice easily installed package.

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

Klickoris (1104419) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029679)

Is there even a legitimate use for that?

Re:Its a cracking tool (5, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029699)

Is there even a legitimate use for that?
To find out if your own network is vulnerable.

No matter what kind of bullshit laws get put into place to restrict 'cracking tools' - criminals will have them. Legally sticking your head in the sand will not make you any safer. Far better that tools like this are spread far and wide so that countermeasures, or at least recognition of the problems, are also spread far and wide.

Re:Its a cracking tool (4, Insightful)

OverlordQ (264228) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029965)

No matter what kind of bullshit laws get put into place to restrict 'cracking tools'

It's not to restrict the tools, it's just so they have more things to accuse you of when you're charged to get something to stick.

Re:Its a cracking tool (4, Insightful)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030031)

cool, just what every community needs - more ways to have charges stick when the government takes a dislike to you! assholes.

Re:Its a cracking tool (3, Insightful)

angulion (132742) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030899)

To bring in the car analogy, this seems more like making cars and alcohol illegal instead of the act of drunk driving..
Of course driving and drinking everyone knows, so making them illegal would never even come into question.

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030239)

is there even a legitimate use for that?

To find out if your own network is vulnerable.


I know of a company near to where I work who do it as a business for large organisations. They'll be brought in to test network security and use all sorts of tools, including the simple ones like nmap and port scanning.

If you want to check that your network is safe in a similar way but don't have several thousand to burn, what's wrong with checking?

This is another one of those "will limit the rights of law abiding citizens while the criminals continue to ignore it (because they're criminal)" laws.

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

umghhh (965931) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030843)

There is a debate of sorts (i.e. politicians do the talking) currently about german secret police and their right to spy on you in any way it sees fit - by breaking into you private computers too. Could this be a coincidence? Maybe the guy refused to talk to them and they let him know he is next to be thoroughly investigated for possible law violations. Incidentaly abbreviation of state's name can be transalted as Banana Republik Deutschland. It fits quite well actually.

Re:Its a cracking tool (4, Insightful)

bmo (77928) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029805)

"Is there even a legitimate use for that?"

Under German law, now, even nmap could be considered evil. Tools like this and kismac are mostly used to see if your pants are around your ankles with regards to your network, either home or commercial.

Why should people with home networks not have this tool available? The German law is stupid and makes everyone a victim while not taking the tools out of the hands of people who will use them anyway for nefarious purposes.

I can kill people with a hammer, or I can use it to build things. I choose the latter. Should we outlaw hammers because some people illegaly misuse them?

--
BMO

Re:Its a cracking tool (2, Interesting)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030049)

I can kill people with a hammer, or I can use it to build things. I choose the latter. Should we outlaw hammers because some people illegaly misuse them?

Brings to mind the riots in Sydney about a year ago. A sporting goods shop almost sold out of baseball bats in a couple of hours. The manager called the police to ask for a suggested course of action. The cops suggested the store stop selling baseball bats for the time being.

Re:Its a cracking tool (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030135)

Why yes, Michael! Melbourne *is* better than Sydney.

Re:Its a cracking tool (2, Insightful)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030193)

Brings to mind the riots in Sydney about a year ago. A sporting goods shop almost sold out of baseball bats in a couple of hours. The manager called the police to ask for a suggested course of action. The cops suggested the store stop selling baseball bats for the time being.


That is a difficult one. Whilst I think that the problem there is the person, not the bat, sometimes it is worth restricting some actions. I think that even the most pro gun supporter would say there is a limit on selling weapons. Its just where you want to draw the line. Baseball bats, knives, guns, semi-automatics, hand grenades, small tactical nukes? Somewhere along the line most people will agree its not a good idea to have these things for sale in the sports section of k-mart, irrespective of the individual's personal freedom. Most peoples rights to freedom should stop somewhere short of their right to kill them selves with a 10 megaton nuke in a densely populated city.

Now this is a little different from what KisMAC is about, however. Kismac is fairly useless if you have a good password and a network secured by a proper protocol. On networks that aren't properly secured, it can open them up with various amounts of grunt work, ranging from minutes to days.

Mostly, KisMAC helps secure the network by letting you attack your own network. It has very little to do with most current criminal activity online.

Criminalising this tool will not make people much safer, if at all. Arguably it makes things more secure - I've persuaded a number of people to change their encryption to WPA by demonstrating how quickly their base stations can be compromised.

Much better I do it than someone else.

I think the German authorities would be much better working on philshing attacks, scam emails, and so on.

Of course, that would require some real work, not like this...

Michael

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

poopdeville (841677) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030203)

Rioters were buying baseball bats? Sounds like a lame riot to me.

Re:Its a cracking tool (1, Funny)

Ohreally_factor (593551) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030299)

Sounds more like a Canadian riot, doesn't it?

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030511)

Rioters were buying baseball bats? Sounds like a lame riot to me.
Lol! Classic case of the police helping the criminals by preventing the law-abiding people from protecting themselves.

Re:Its a cracking tool (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030195)

I can kill people with a hammer, or I can use it to build things. I choose the latter. Should we outlaw hammers because some people illegaly misuse them?
I'm sorry, what did you say? I was writing my name in the snow with a shotgun.

Re:Its a cracking tool (2, Funny)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030259)

Yes, but a politician can understand a hammer. It's heavy, blunt and simple on the whole (no comments on similarity ;) ) where as this new-fangled intarwebs-net-tubes and its associated applications must be dangerous in some way, otherwise children wouldn't be using it.

Or something like that.

Re:Its a cracking tool (4, Insightful)

muridae (966931) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030205)

Nmap helped me pick out a flaw in my sister's router. She asked me to figure out why it needed rebooting once a day, nmap showed several open ports, and after hitting one multiple times the router locked. Repeat the experiment, it locks again. Experiment concluded.

Kismet showed some family members why they needed both wireless encryption and MAC filtering. Telling them I was going to log every IM conversation, and then showing them the logs went a ways towards convincing them that their wireless was not really all that secure. They now know that MAC filtering only keeps out the honest, and WEP only hides their data with a thin layer of gauze, but at least it is their informed choice now.

Kismet and other wireless scanners have helped me pick out channels for my router based on where they have the least interference. I blame a cranky windows 'wireless assist tool' for picking the strongest AP instead of the one I select, but since it was what I was dealing with I just made the best out of it.

And yes, wireless scanners have also found me open hotspots to connect to when I am traveling. If the coffee shop leaves it on after hours, how am I supposed to ask for permission anyways?

Re:Its a cracking tool (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030391)

And yes, wireless scanners have also found me open hotspots to connect to when I am traveling. If the coffee shop leaves it on after hours, how am I supposed to ask for permission anyways?
So if they leave their door unlocked after hours, it's okay to go in and get yourself a cappuccino? Neat!

Re:Its a cracking tool (2, Insightful)

muridae (966931) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030895)

So if they leave their door unlocked after hours, it's okay to go in and get yourself a cappuccino? Neat!
I turn on my computer, their AP says 'hey, I'm a network, connect to me.' My wireless card says 'hey, I'm MAC address 11-11-11-11-11-11, can I please connect,' and their AP says sure.

The locked door analogy just doesn't cut it. Think of the coffee shop having a robot butler that they forget to program correctly. It serves at all hours instead of just working hours. Who's fault would that be? Now, take your archaic straw man and get lost.

Note: I did not suggest or imply that I decoded their WEP key to get an internet connection.

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030785)

Telling them I was going to log every IM conversation, and then showing them the logs went a ways towards convincing them that their wireless was not really all that secure
Just wondering, but what brain-dead IM service allows connections that don't go via SSL?

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

TorKlingberg (599697) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029691)

So what does it take to be a "professional"?

Re:Its a cracking tool (1, Offtopic)

bky1701 (979071) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029703)

50$ in the right person's pocket.

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030015)

50$ in the right person's pocket.
I think that's "customer". "Professional" is when the $50 goes in your pocket.

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

WS Tu (1045270) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030175)

I think he talk about the license let someone get the "expert" title. Like the Exam Fee of MCSE: http://www.whizlabs.com/mcse-exam/70-290.html [whizlabs.com]

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030247)

I think he talk about the license let someone get the "expert" title.

Like the Exam Fee of MCSE: http://www.whizlabs.com/mcse-exam/70-290.html [whizlabs.com]
MCSE, huh? My statement still stands. ;)

Re:Its a cracking tool (2, Insightful)

AntiNazi (844331) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029729)

Because if you put the book at the back of the shelf no one will ever find it?

I blame George Bush (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029741)

I blame the Jew Puppet George Bu$Hitler Chimpy McHaliburtin.

See this is the type of laws you get when you deal with AmeriKKA.

Americans are Der Juden.

Vote Democrat.

Re:I blame George Bush (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029921)

At the risk of running afoul of Godwin's Law... What are you, a nazi?

Re:Its a cracking tool (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029743)

  • Kismet runs on linux as well
  • If you have sensitive data, why would you try to even put it on a wireless network with known exploits and vulnerabilities?
  • Due to the inherent nature of wireless networking, anybody with a packet sniffer on their wireless interface can do this
  • no argument here -- if people want to share their information about WAP's, that's their thing.
  • oh noes!!1 ettercap anyone?
  • see above -- anybody with a packet sniffer already can do this.
  • most new network cards have support for b/g networks ... do you complain because your 10/100 network card does the same thing?
  • If you run a wireless network based on technology with known exploits, that's your fault. Talk to your vendor / IT Admin / Senator / Lobbyist to get things changed
  • See above
  • A handy tool, nothing more.

Re:Its a cracking tool (4, Interesting)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029753)

Free speech is fine but I don't agree with having this tool available to non-professionals in a nice easily installed package.


Well, I have used it a bit, and I'm no professional. But having shown people how quickly their encryption fails is a good thing.

At the end of the day, your comment is one of security through obscurity.

Kismac doesn't hack the unhackable, it can however open up access points that are much less secure than their owners think, mostly due to failures by the vendors to use proper algorithms. Why this should bother you is unclear to me.

At the end of the day, the vendors are more likely to change their hardware if this sort of tool is widely available. If it was kept obscure, most hardware vendors would never patch their access points.

I've used it alot, but never actually hacked into anyone's computer by using it.

Its likely to be forked anyway and exist on in another country...

Michael (as the original poster of the article).

MOD PARENT UP (1, Insightful)

deftcoder (1090261) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029979)

Also, nice sig. Isn't that a Schneier quote? I could've sworn I've seen it before... and it's been a while since I read Applied Crytography.

Re:MOD PARENT UP (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030115)

Also, nice sig. Isn't that a Schneier quote? I could've sworn I've seen it before... and it's been a while since I read Applied Crytography.


I rather liked it :)

I'm not sure where it comes from - I don't think its a Schneier quote and I've had a quick search on google & wikiquote to try and find the reference - I can't.

Someone posted this on /. and it met the essential criteria - I liked it more than my previous .sig - It describes the futility of DRM better than anything else I could say...

Michael

Re:Its a cracking tool (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030341)

Kismac doesn't hack the unhackable,
Well duh. You're just restating a definition.

it can however open up access points that are much less secure than their owners think, mostly due to failures by the vendors to use proper algorithms.
Isn't that exactly what {cr,h}acking is?

It's a security tool, dummy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029763)

Thanks Michael for your support of free speech. I'm really pleased to hear you think it's "fine".

Why don't people seem to get that making these programs obscure does not make you safer? I for one want to monitor my wireless network to see if they are vulnerable to such "cracking" (goddammit, "cracking" is removing copy protection and has been for two decades!!) tools.

They tried to shut down nmap [insecure.org] in the same way (it first appeared in Phrack, btw), but I think most people will agree it's an absolutely essential tool for securing your network and checking for open ports, etc.

Making these types of programs illegal (it's this just a macafied kismet [kismetwireless.net] ?) is absolutely crazy and will result in more, not fewer security breaches.

Re:It's a security tool, dummy (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029845)

From the AC:

Thanks Michael for your support of free speech. I'm really pleased to hear you think it's "fine".


As there are two Michael's posting here, I'm just guessing you aren't referring to me...

Why don't people seem to get that making these programs obscure does not make you safer? I for one want to monitor my wireless network to see if they are vulnerable to such "cracking" (goddammit, "cracking" is removing copy protection and has been for two decades!!) tools.

They tried to shut down nmap in the same way (it first appeared in Phrack, btw), but I think most people will agree it's an absolutely essential tool for securing your network and checking for open ports, etc.

Making these types of programs illegal (it's this just a macafied kismet?) is absolutely crazy and will result in more, not fewer security breaches.


Its based on kismet. It has the usual aqua gui-ness about it, but remains a pretty powerful tool. One of the most impressive finds on a mac, and part of why I was so impressed when I switched to apple. *nix power combined with a user interface that was just too easy.

And I think that every thing that this german law does for KisMAC, must surely apply to kismet also...

Michael

Re:It's a security tool, dummy (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030033)

To take an extreme position, I do not believe it would be a good idea for the wireless network configuration dialog in gnome to have a text field for the key and right beside it, a button to use network traffic to obtain the key.

Re:It's a security tool, dummy (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030133)

To take an extreme position, I do not believe it would be a good idea for the wireless network configuration dialog in gnome to have a text field for the key and right beside it, a button to use network traffic to obtain the key.


Of course not. Done properly, it would automatically fill the key in for you. :)

Michael

Re:It's a security tool, dummy (1)

mrchaotica (681592) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030279)

You ought to file that as a feature request for both GNOME and KDE.

(Seriously, why not? It's not as if networks using weak encryption would have actually been secure anyway; this just provides better usability!)

Re:Its a cracking tool (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029789)

Free speech is fine but I don't agree with having this tool available to non-professionals in a nice easily installed package.

This statement urks me. So what should we do? Restrict free speech just a little so professionals get the easily installed package? Have someone complete a course and afford them the title of professional?

Of course, if we restrict free speech for this cause, whats to stop it from be restricted for other purposes? Locksmith tools to help people get in their cars and houses?

Tell me, what is the limit?

Personally, I believe there should not be any limit. Its black or white, all or nothing!! Once it becomes grey, its open to interpertation. Interpertation is BAD! This is what allowed the government to take property for "public purposes" (owned by a private corporation of course). Also, peaceful protesting is fine and legal, when the government can decide to regulate the location and timeframe (at night from 10:00 to 10:01 ONLY around a dark alley where no one would see them).

There you go, your gut feeling could send us spiraling down a loss of (more) rights we should be ...... righfully entitled to. No, wait. Rights are NOT a privilege, gift, or anything that should be revoked.

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

Nixoloco (675549) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029803)

Free speech is fine but I don't agree with having this tool available to non-professionals in a nice easily installed package.
And why not? You would prefer to pay a ridiculous amount of money for such a tool?

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

itsme1234 (199680) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029825)

"Free speech is fine but I don't agree with having this tool available to non-professionals in a nice easily installed package."

Apart from the fact that what you self-contradict yourself (if free speech is fine then you can just "free speech" a script that installs any program "nice/easily" and that should be fine too) I should point out that fortunately (in my opinion) it doesn't matter if you agree or not. Well, unless you live in the only countries I know where "cracking tools" are banned: North Korea, China and Germany but then you might have other problems than easy access to cracking software. There are many things some people don't like other people to do but that's perfectly fine it they live it at that (it's NOT fine if they want for example to kill all people working in certain days of the week like some -popular I might add- religion wants).

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

No Tears In The End (452319) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029919)

Free speech is fine but I don't agree with having this tool available to non-professionals in a nice easily installed package.

You're entitled to your opinion. As stupid as it is, you have the right to hold it. Allegedly, Lenin had a name for people like you. [wikipedia.org]

NTITE

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

niceone (992278) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029999)

Hey don't be so hard on the parent, maybe he just talks like Wallace.

It's a cracking tool! More cheese Grommet!

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030001)

Free speech is fine but I don't agree with having this tool available to non-professionals in a nice easily installed package.
You're right. Only professionals should have tools like this. If you're going to have this tool, you better be using it to lift credit card information from unsecured Point of Sale networks.

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030023)

Good! Now we can be sure that crackers will never have this, and that only professionals will.

Re:Its a cracking tool (1)

jimicus (737525) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030553)

I am a professional. Part of my job is to ensure security on our systems.

I appreciate having a nice easily installed package because if I'm looking to test a particular aspect of the network for security, I'm not looking to spend 15 hours getting the tool working in the first place. Alternatively you could provide the nice easily installed package commercially - for a fee - but then you're assuming that those with criminal intent have neither money nor means of pirating. Both of which are patently untrue.

This does not exactly require an IQ in excess of 150 to figure out.

Therefore, I can only assume that you, Sir, are either an idiot or a troll. Which is it?

Hmmm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030807)

"Free speech is fine"

In my experience, people who say this really *don't* think free speech is fine. What they mean is "Free speech is fine as long as it doesn't affect me in any way. If it does, then I'm really not for free speech"

"but I don't agree with having this tool available to non-professionals in a nice easily installed package"

See? I knew I was right.

You're missing something critically important: who gets to define who is the "professional"? Anybody who makes money working with computers? Or some sort of "certification" is required? Stallman is a kook, but you're making the guy look like a genius when it comes to protection.

At what point does a piece of software go from being legal for "regular folks" to one that requires this special license to use? You're the worst kind of person to make this decision because (a) you really don't like free speech (b) you have no idea what should be done (c) but damnit just outlaw it (d) even if you can't understand what you're asking for (e) and if you're not doing anything wrong, what's the big deal with the government intruding into your life even more.

Please please please. Move into the country and never bother normal folks again.

The ignorant Arrogance of German politicans. (5, Informative)

SlashdotTemporaryAcc (1134399) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029713)

Because of its vagueness, this yet to be commenced, but already passed law is a severe threat to the German security community! Experts of different interest groups have repeatedly expressed their serious concerns, but the politicans - naturally knowing better than any expert can - decided otherwise. For more information, please visit: http://www.phenoelit.de/202/202.html [phenoelit.de]

Re:The ignorant Arrogance of German politicans. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029875)

Listen up you disgusting pigs,

I recently logged onto my 14 year old son's computer because I'm having trouble with my office machine. Right on his desktop he has a folder marked Slashdot. I figured that it must be where he keeps his animay movies, but I opened it up and was HORRIFIED by what I saw. It was laden with child pornography, dismembered limbs, and all around deviant, sickening images. You people let my son onto your website without ANY age verification, he was looking at things that I never imagined could exist.

I will be filing legal papers soon unless you take down this offensive site or change your policies so that minors may not access it. In addition, I will be petitioning your webmaster to pay for my son's psychiatrist fees, which are going to be substantial considering what I've seen.

Sincereley,
Kenneth F. Wuori

Re:The ignorant Arrogance of German politicans. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029939)

Mod parent funny!

Captcha : Innards :-)

Re:The ignorant Arrogance of German politicans. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029977)

About the son, Alex :-)

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Alex_Wuori [encycloped...matica.com]

Re:The ignorant Arrogance of German politicans. (2, Insightful)

dballanc (100332) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029991)

The ignorant Arrogance of politicans in general. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but the only thing the politicians really seem care about is making sure it's also a toll road.

Governments do this for one reason (1)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030623)

Make everybody a criminal in theory, so it's easier is to suppress the general population.

Re:The ignorant Arrogance of German politicans. (1)

F-3582 (996772) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030757)

I remember trying to write a story about this on /.

It's been "Pending" for two months, now...

Can he continue 'remotely'? (2, Interesting)

fadilnet (1124231) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029727)

Can he not have a server setup outside Germany and remotely access it and keep the development going on? Simple Example: VNC The development will be outside Germany, in a way. Or, he can break KisMAC into different components, components which are viewed as 'harmless' by the GOV, unless when they get together.

Re:Can he continue 'remotely'? (3, Insightful)

nukem996 (624036) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029783)

If they wanted to charge him they still would and while he may still win because the program is running on a computer in a different country it still would cost him alot of time, money, and energy that he probably doesn't want to spend.

svnsync (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029779)

Quick, someone use svnsync [collab.net] to download the subversion history of the project!

Alternatives... (2, Informative)

fadilnet (1124231) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029881)

Though KisMAC is still out there, there are alternatives such as Airsnort, Airattack, WepLab, Web,.. Can a live CD such as this one http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1814#auditor [securityfocus.com] be booted off a macintelatosh?

Lost Freedom (2, Interesting)

twenty3inhouse (1123651) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029885)

What bothers me (i've never heard about this software before) is the trend for western countries to move away from individual freedom. I live in Australia, it is happening here - the doctor that was held without charge for 3 weeks [sciencedaily.com] . I know it's happening in the US, but now it seems to be happening in other western countries too. Are there any western countries whose citizens aren't losing their individual freedoms?

At least we are having an inquiry into the matter [news.com.au] . How is it in other countries?

Re:Lost Freedom (2, Insightful)

keeboo (724305) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030137)

Are there any western countries whose citizens aren't losing their individual freedoms?

Well.. It's not happening in Brazil.
I guess the politicians here are too busy counting their money.

Re:Lost Freedom (1)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030215)

is the trend for western countries to move away from individual freedom.

It is caused by two factors working together.

First, is the terrorism McCarthyism, and second is big corporations gaining more political influence than voters.
     

Re:Lost Freedom (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030225)

Are there any western countries whose citizens aren't losing their individual freedoms?

Although what happened to Haneef was unjust, he was charged and bailed within two weeks, not three. Also, he's not an Australian citizen, so he's sort of irrelevant to your point.

Re:Lost Freedom (1)

jabuzz (182671) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030897)

I would also add that he gave his mobile phone SIM card to someone who turned out to be a terrorist. It's not like he was picked out at random for no reason and persecuted. He had the misfortune to associate himself with someone that carried out terrorist acts. In such circumstances it was entirely reasonable to bring him in for questioning. That he has been let free shows that the system is working.

Re:Lost Freedom (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030481)

Then the terrorists has won... and the politicians are obviously too stupid to see it.

Doesnt work in all Macs (2, Informative)

bananaendian (928499) | more than 7 years ago | (#20029975)

He urges visitors to take a copy of KisMAC and its source as long as the site is up, so that development might be continued outside the US or EU
FYI: KisMAC doesn't work in passive mode in the latest ibooks with Atheros AR5008 chipset.

Re:Doesnt work in all Macs (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030003)

FYI: KisMAC doesn't work in passive mode in the latest ibooks with Atheros AR5008 chipset.


I presume you meant macbooks here - it works fine in passive mode with the ibooks, they don't have that chipset. It does work fine with a USB prism chipset 802.11b/g key if you have a macbook.

Michael

Re:Doesnt work in all Macbooks (2, Informative)

bananaendian (928499) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030061)

Darn submit button! noticed that myself afterwards. I'm aware that on the older Macbooks (pre 2007) it works fine. But Apple has changed the chipset recently to Atheros and all kinds of problems have crept up, airport dropping connection and so on. It's understandable that KisMAC doesn't support it because its completely different chipset and they haven't updated KisMAC's hardware support after 2006.

FUCK KDAWSON (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20029993)

he's nothing but a dumb ass bitch. fucking cunt.

As someone with dual citizienship and.. (2, Insightful)

Joe Tie. (567096) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030177)

a family of lawyers, I'd caution anyone tempted to think of this as an Us Vs. Them scenario. This kind of shit happens everywhere, and it's really only by having the protection of the guns of any particular country that you gain any measure of freedom past the average level that the man on the street considers the lowest possible. It sucks, but this is the reality of the situation. You've only got as much freedom as isn't either explicitly protected, or passed by when politicians make their rounds in "protecting" you against harming yourself.

It most definitely is "Us versus Them" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030627)

Politicians are the scum of the earth everywhere. There hasn't been a community-loving politician since Ghandi, and even him we see with rose-tinted glasses and behind the fog of history.

> You've only got as much freedom as isn't either explicitly protected, or passed by when politicians make their rounds in "protecting" you against harming yourself.

That would be so if we were all entirely separate individuals fighting independently, but as long as the politicians "allow" us global communications (and it's hard to ban) then we have the force of numbers, and we have as much freedom as we are willing to fight for. Fortunately the "fight" is largely a matter of posturing, with blood lost only rarely --- the main weapon is making politicians look like total morons in public, which they make it very easy to do.

The reason why we've been losing freedoms hand over fist recently is apathy, and the fact that the politicians are better at propaganda than we are, because of TV. But with a bit of luck, the nature of media might change soon, and the online media is far less susceptible to control.

For the time being though, it's definitely an "Us versus the Politicians" world.

3 hour tour (2, Interesting)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030189)

Open-source should buy and island and form a new "country". Call it Stallmanland? Stalland? Nah. Needs work.

OSS Island? I don't see it. How about Free City? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030273)

How about a city? We could call it Stallmangrad. You just have to sign over your rights as you walk through the city gates so that they can be properly protected from the evil capiteelists.

Re:3 hour tour (2, Insightful)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030317)

Come on now, why is it "off-topic"? It is based directly on this statement from the submitter:

"He urges visitors to take a copy of KisMAC and its source as long as the site is up, so that development might be continued outside the US or EU."

OSS-friendly laws and practices can be established in a new island country. Security research could also be done without being visited by mean corporate lawyers or the FBI.
             

Guns... (0, Offtopic)

NEOtaku17 (679902) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030235)

My German friends laughed at me because of my guns.
"Why would you need that unless you are going to kill someone?" they said.
"To protect myself from others who have them" I said.
"Then why don't they make them illegal?" they said.

I wonder if people will ever understand that criminals don't care about the law. After all, if they did they wouldn't be criminals. Outlawing things like this only hurts the good guys.

Re:Guns... (0, Offtopic)

Suicyco (88284) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030269)

Well, guns are only used to kill. Thats their sole purpose. I say so what? Taking away my right to possess killing devices doesn't remove them from the people I most need them for. Namely criminals and the armed authorities. The whole reason a populace needs guns is to allow them to remove those in power should that become necessary. I don't care about hunting. I care about having an equalizer that allows me and my fellow citizens to retake power. No, not retake. To reinforce who really has the true power. No government ever can control an unwilling populace, and they know that. Fortunately for them, most people are willing to take it up the ass. But that doesn't last forever. That is the true fear of any government. It is not foreign invaders. It is their own people. All revolutions come from within. As they should.

Iraq as an example of a success? (1)

fantomas (94850) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030311)

I suppose by your logic you see Iraq as an example of a success, then? A well armed populace sorting out their own problems and fighting off foreign forces, different groups attempting to "retake power"? I assume you defend the rights of the Iraqi people to own their own weapons?

Seems like a bit of a mess out there to me and that things would be better sorted out by unarmed people talking their way through their problems rather than shooting their way through them. You may remember that revolutions have also happened peacefully (e.g. former Soviet republics).

I think Iraq is a fine example of what happens when a heavily armed populace try to sort out their own problems.

Re:Guns... (1)

Baumi (148744) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030353)

My German friends laughed at me because of my guns.
"Why would you need that unless you are going to kill someone?" they said.
"To protect myself from others who have them" I said.
"Then why don't they make them illegal?" they said.
Not trying to start an endless gun argument here, but that analogy is flawed. You wouldn't be able to accidentially kill or hurt someone with this piece of software. And while you'd want to keep the program out of your kids' reach (as soon as they're computer literate enough to use it), if they did manage to get their hands on it, they couldn't endanger themselves and others by playing with it the same way they could if they found a gun.

No matter what you think about gun ownership, the potential consequences of gun abuse are far greater than those of misusing a program like this one, so there's no inherent reason both should be treated equally by law.

Re:Guns... (1)

kinabrew (1053930) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030503)

I think grandparent's point was more along the lines of

If someone's going to break into a network, this law is probably the least of the ones they intend to break.

ie, this law isn't going to prevent anyone with malicious intent from having and using a program like KisMac, but it will prevent people from using KisMac as a tool to learn and test their own network security.

Regardless of grandparent's opinion on guns, that is one similar argument that can be made.

Re:Guns... (1)

mr_matticus (928346) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030629)

Except that it works. Taking away the guns results in tremendously fewer gun deaths. There are approximately 150 gun deaths per year in Canada. That's right, one hundred and fifty; that number before the laws were enacted was ten times higher. There are 12,000 gun homicides per year in the US (roughly 100 times as many with just ten times the population).

Seems to me that's a fairly strong case. Gun control didn't take away everyone's guns (you can still have hunting/recreational weapons and you can get handgun licenses); it certainly didn't affect those in military, law enforcement, and other legitimate security-related fields. Same principle here. If you've got a legitimate use for the software and you've used it consistent with that, there's no reason this law would get in your way. What seems more likely is that this is a sensationalized pot-stirrer reacting strongly to a crowd of excitable Slashdotters via an over-cautious bit of speculation by one developer absent any legal advice.

Re:Guns... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030523)

of course good gun control legislation targets both legal and illegal guns.

"banana republic" (1)

Futurepower(R) (558542) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030285)

Quote: "German laws change and are being adapted for 'better' protection against something politicians obviously do not understand. It will become illegal to develop, use, or even possess KisMAC in this banana republic [i.e., Germany]."

It's amazing when someone calls his own country a "banana republic".

Managers who were older than 20 when the personal computer revolution began have seldom bothered to learn about the new technology. I guess we will just have to wait until the old dinosaurs retire.

Re:"banana republic" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030489)

It's amazing when someone calls his own country a "banana republic".


Know many people who aren't "Bond Babies"?

I have many friends who have started to call the USA a Banana Republic. I've done it myself. To qualify, the country has to achieve a certain level of pervsive and endemic corruption, display a "We on't give a shit" attitude to basic maintenance of infrastructure and evidence a low regard for the value of human lives.

I've gone so far as to call the neocon USA a "third world shithole".

Re:"banana republic" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030505)

> It's amazing when someone calls his own country a "banana republic".

What would you expect after East-Germany took over West-Germany? We call it Stasi 2.0.

> Managers who were older than 20 when the personal computer revolution began have seldom bothered to learn about the
> new technology. I guess we will just have to wait until the old dinosaurs retire.

This has not only to do with computers. Our Home Secretary also talks about planting trojans in PCs, arresting terror suspects without charge and even randomly killing them. In a country where the death penalty is forbidden by the constituion! Oh, and they use fighter jets to intimidate demonstrators here.

Re:"banana republic" (1)

Shohat (959481) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030725)

There is no need to learn about computers to be a good manager.
I personally develop Thermochemical real-time control devices; the owner of the company I work for doesn't own a computer, and all his email is managed by his secretary. He is a brilliant mechanical engineer and a good businessman, much more competent than the email/berry/collaboration obsessed middle-managers that you probably consider the tech-savvy personnel that should lead companies.

Same thing with FPGA passwd cracker at sump.org (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20030411)

The same apparently happened with the FPGA based unix password cracker located at http://sump.org/projects/password/ [sump.org]

Replacement? (0, Offtopic)

tecker (793737) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030509)

Does anyone know of a good replacement for KisMAC. In my opinion it was the best one out there and now that the project is being discontinued I will have to live with the crapshoot that was the passive Atheros drivers.

Can anyone recommend a replacement?

Re:Replacement? (1)

mgv (198488) | more than 7 years ago | (#20030655)

oes anyone know of a good replacement for KisMAC. In my opinion it was the best one out there and now that the project is being discontinued I will have to live with the crapshoot that was the passive Atheros drivers.

Can anyone recommend a replacement?


Wait for the "fork". The code will be moved to another site, and I suspect that development will continue on.

No need to reinvent the wheel...

Michael
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