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US Blocks Entry For German Black Hat Presenter

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the officious-nonsense dept.

Security 348

bushwhacker2000 alerts us to the dilemma of Thomas Dullien, a prominent security researcher who has been a fixture at the annual Black Hat security conference. Dullien was denied entry into the US on his way to this year's conference. Dullien, a German reverse-engineering expert known in hacker circles as "Halvar Flake," said he was blocked from entering the US on the technicality that he had (years ago) signed a contract with Black Hat as an individual, not as his company. Customs agents said he would need an H1-B visa to perform the contracted two days of training at Black Hat, and put him on the next plane back to Germany.

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O well... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034695)

... next time they will just find one did not brush well enough.

Re:O well... (0, Flamebait)

HomelessInLaJolla (1026842) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034951)

What is that? A conspiracy theory? You know it's all his own fault.

Hurrah! (5, Insightful)

zmollusc (763634) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034699)

Another evil terrorist plot foiled! Tax me some more so i can be even safer!

Re:Hurrah! (0, Troll)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034713)

Oh fuck off. It's not some big conspiracy. You need a visa to ***WORK*** in the states as a non citizen. He didn't have one and thus was denied entry. I'm sure if I flew over to Germany they'd be all cool with me [a non-citizen/resident] just taking up any old job.

Actually, the only EU country I know of that lets Cannucks work there [without a visa] is France. Which oddly enough is more than what the UK permits and we're supposed to be all family or something...

Tom

Re:Hurrah! (4, Insightful)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034911)

Uh, it's a conference. Pretty much any conference has workshops and/or tutorials. The presenters are usually paid (at least expenses), and very often foreign. I've been to conferences in the EU where people from the US gave workshops and tutorials, and ones in the USA where people from the EU gave them. I've seen people from China, South Korea and Japan give them at both.

If this is a precedent, then it means that conferences in the USA will only have tutorials run by natives, reducing the quality (since you'll only get the best of a subset of your attendees able to give them, rather than the best).

Re:Hurrah! (1, Insightful)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034961)

I've been to several IACR conferences and Toorcon multiple times. I was never paid to speak at Toorcon, and IACR speakers are not paid either.

And you *can* give a free talk in the states without a work visa. So long as you're not getting paid [or staying longer than the tourist visa allows] they don't care.

So if he just forfeited his pay, he could have done the talk easily. Another way that is legal is to have someone else buy the airfare [if that's the hangup]. afaik it's not illegal to be flown to a conference to give an otherwise free talk, it's probably borderline illegal though, but he could easily and truthfully respond he's not getting paid :-) [receiving a gift en lieu of pay is still considered consideration...]

Anyways, ... not all conferences have paid speakers, and even the ones that do, still have unpaid sessions/tracks.

Look at the big picture, Tom! (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034959)

Tom, you appear to need further context to understand the original poster's statement.

The current administration of the United States has made "fighting terrorism" their top priority. As I imagine you are well aware, they have started two major armed conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq as part of their so-called "War on Terror". Domestically, there was the PATRIOT Act, the No Fly list, the hassling of innocent photographers, and a wide spectrum of other activities performed in the name of "defending the Homeland".

However, at the very same time we have many of the same members of the administration pushing for lax immigration laws. Some even support amnesty for illegal workers from countries like Mexico, Vietnam, and Guatemala. Some of the proposals we've heard of so far make no mention of screening these aliens who are already in the United States.

So in this case, we have a highly-educated and very legitimate individual wishing to share his advanced security knowledge with a number of Americans. Yet he endures nothing but hassle and expense from the American officials. On the other hand, the same people crying about there not being enough security in America turn around and want to legitimize currently-illegal workers from third-world countries. Mind you, many of these workers are highly uneducated, often criminal, and usually able to do little more than work as a janitor.

To any normal person, it seems stupid that a country with such a fixation on security would turn away a security expert for such a minor reason, while at the same time wanting to legitimize the status of the millions of illegal aliens who are probably far more of a security risk.

Re:Look at the big picture, Tom! (1)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034997)

If he just forfeited his pay it would have been fine.

And yes, I agree that foreign workers are screwed over. Consider this, Cannucks have to go through the same shit that other foreigners have to work in the states.

but ... I can drive to the states in 40 minutes. Hell that's shorter than some folks commutes!!! Cannucks [and yankees] should be able to work in opposite countries with much less hassle. Granted there are TN-1s but that's only for temp work [they're not supposed to be renewed].

Tom

Re:Look at the big picture, Tom! (1)

HomelessInLaJolla (1026842) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035135)

Yet he endures nothing but hassle and expense from the American officials
Such conspiracy theory. This doesn't sound like anyone else I know...

You're just making up excuses to blame someone else for his failures.

Mind you, many of these workers are highly uneducated, often criminal, and usually able to do little more than work as a janitor.
I'm highly uneducated, non-criminal, and I still can't get a job... even as a janitor (not that I would want to take it away from those who are much more qualified to be one).

Re:Look at the big picture, Tom! (3, Insightful)

HitekHobo (1132869) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035273)

Its really simple. There are laws that you have to take into consideration before you enter another country. It is your job to know those laws or risk having your travel plans ruined. I don't carry handguns into Canada. I make sure to fill out the paperwork to carry a long gun to Canada. I get to enter Canada!

This guy just didn't know the rules and a customs agent enforced the laws. He is just doing his job. In my mind, the real news event here is that a Blackhat speaker is causing a big stink on the internet because he wasn't allowed to break the law.

If he was really wearing his 'black hat', a little social engineering would've got him into the country without a second thought.

Re:Hurrah! (1)

JimBobJoe (2758) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035025)

I'm sure if I flew over to Germany they'd be all cool with me [a non-citizen/resident] just taking up any old job.

He wasn't "taking up any old job" he was simply doing training for a conference. Under the right circumstances, he needs no visa to do that, but the right circumstances require just the right wording on paper.

And for what it's worth, if you flew over to Germany you could do the same--be sent over for business purposes--for 90 days, without a visa. [usembassy.gov]

Standard B1 visa should have been enough (5, Informative)

EmbeddedJanitor (597831) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035141)

A B1 visa should have been enough since he had no intention of living in USA. I have frequently travelled to USA on a B1 for business purposes. For many nationalities B1 falls under the vis waiver program.

However, when you travel into USA there are certain words you should use carefully. "Work" is one of those. Don't say "I am coming to work in USA". Say "I am on business, attending a conference".

Re:Standard B1 visa should have been enough (3, Informative)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035179)

Bingo. As asinine as the G is, if he had actually lined up his ducks in a row, he'd probably be on his way to the con now.

I actually had an experience like that. I was touring to Broadcom to do a little side project for them. The idea was that the people who wanted the work done were in San Diego, but they would pay me through the Canadian branch of Broadcom. I'd go there to get the specs, then head home to do the work.

I told the customs dude [in Toronto no less] that I was "heading to the states for work." It was at 3am [6am flight] and I wasn't thinking right. The guy asked me about a visa and I said I didn't have one. Then he got all uppity about stealing jobs and all that. I told him that I was doing the work in Canada, but I had to meet the people first. I had to do a secondary check and had my fingerprints taken/etc. Was really unnerving. If I just told them I was heading there for a business meeting it would have been a simple process...

Anyways, I agree, whenever the subject of "work" comes up around US customs you have to make sure you have your wording correct. Otherwise they just assume you're a job thieving illegal alien and will get all uppity.

Tom

Re:Hurrah! (2, Insightful)

Jeremy_Bee (1064620) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035193)

This is hardly an insightful comment and should be modded down if only for the bad attitude and swear words. In fact it seems like whomever posted this did not even read the blog in question.

The blogger makes several excellent points about how foolish the whole situation was, how the application of the law was inconsistent relative both to similar situations in the US as well as international standards, and proffered two different, "do-able," legal solutions that were promptly ignored by the "officers" in question.

The US immigration/Visa regulations are well-known around the world to be something out of the dark ages.
Simply saying "well that's the law" is not informative or illuminating in any way.

Re:Hurrah! (2, Interesting)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035259)

Many people come to the states legally each day, let alone year. If he filled the paperwork properly like he was supposed to, this wouldn't be an issue.

Arguing whether their should even be such draconian measures is a different issue altogether.

For example, suppose I get busted for selling pot in the states. Sure we can sit and talk about the need for said laws, but currently it is on the books, and that's all that matters as far as the law is concerned.

As others pointed out, he could have given the talk via the web [e.g. teleconference] which would have been perfectly legal [oddly enough]. He could have forfeited his pay, he could have filed the correct paperwork, etc, etc...

Tom

Re:Hurrah! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035097)

So let me get this straight. Black Hat and he never bothered to change the contract and didn't make sure they'd be in compliance with applicable law and just assumed because he came in without an issue one year he could continue to do so.

That's crap. He screwed up and he's blaming the US for enforcing its laws as its right to do as a sovereign nation.

Sounds to me like you are whining like Lindsey Lohan or some other self-important person who believes laws don't apply to them. Welcome to reality, you're just like everyone else. Get in the queue, make sure your contract is in order, and have a nice time while visiting the USA.

The law is the law... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034701)

It sucks, but you can't expect immigration officials to randomly let people into the country just because they feel like it.

Re:The law is the law... (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034719)

Well ... I presume the man had a passport, so I don't think this qualifies as "random" exactly, matter of fact given their rationale for sending him packing I'd say it was pretty well targeted. The Feds seem to be sending a "we don't want your kind here" message.

Re:The law is the law... (1, Flamebait)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034739)

A passport is required to get a TOURIST visa, which does not allow you to take up residence or work. You're right, they don't want his "kind" there. That would be the illegal alien kind.

It's one thing to argue the benefits of controlling the migration of labour, but it's not rational to assume this is because he's a "hacker" [oooh spooky!]. Most of the time when I told the US customs that I was going to give talks at Toorcon [or whatever] they didn't even know what cryptography was, let alone that it was all dangerous and "against the interests of the united states government." Mostly they just asked if I was paid, once I said it was a free presentation they told me to fuck off and board my plane.

Tom

Re:The law is the law... (1)

forkazoo (138186) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034907)

A passport is required to get a TOURIST visa, which does not allow you to take up residence or work. You're right, they don't want his "kind" there. That would be the illegal alien kind.

It's one thing to argue the benefits of controlling the migration of labour, but it's not rational to assume this is because he's a "hacker" [oooh spooky!]. Most of the time when I told the US customs that I was going to give talks at Toorcon [or whatever] they didn't even know what cryptography was, let alone that it was all dangerous and "against the interests of the united states government." Mostly they just asked if I was paid, once I said it was a free presentation they told me to fuck off and board my plane.

Tom


I don't know that he was singled out, but I do think that the policy goes too far. I mean, fine, the border agent says, "Hey, I see you haven't got a work permit, but you are apparently here to do some work." Then, there are two options...

- "You are allowed to have a tourist visa, so you can come and hang out and get some vacation snapshots. If, while you are here, you can get your paperwork straightened out, then you can do some work for money. Otherwise, you could lecture for free or something, so long as it isn't for money. If our records indicate that you got paid for work while on the tourist visa, you'll be prosecuted, and we do have an extradition treaty with Germany."

- "OUT, Foreign CUR! AWAY!"

I don't see why turning him back at the border was an effective use of American resources. It cost me tax money to put him on the next airplane out, and it cost my country in terms of knowledge that would have been shared at the conference. That's without any of the public relations issues.

Re:The law is the law... (1)

SD_92104 (714225) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035235)

[...] It cost me tax money to put him on the next airplane out [...]
Not true - if you get sent packing at immigration you will have to pay for your own ticket back - and of course pay the premium because you have to buy a last-minute ticket...

Re:The law is the law... (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035187)

Yes, but the summary does say that "... said he was blocked from entering the US on the technicality that he had (years ago) signed a contract with Black Hat as an individual, not as his company" which does indicate that the immigration folks had some specific knowledge, as opposed to his being just another illegal alien.

Technicality? (5, Insightful)

kcurtis (311610) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034709)

How is this a technicality? He didn't have a visa to do the work here that he had contracted for.

Re:Technicality? (1)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034863)

How is this a technicality? He didn't have a visa to do the work here that he had contracted for.
Neither did he have one the other times he did the exact same thing. Now either this is a technicality, or US customs is seriously SNAFU. Hey, he told them what he was going to do, and they waved him through each time until now?

Re:Technicality? (1)

seriesrover (867969) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035207)

Immigration has shades of grey since its controlled by people who are understaffed. If he came in to work before then he shouldnt have been allowed (assuming the laws at the time needed work authorization for what he did). But I've been through the US immigration process and its full of what if's, who you talk to, arguements you put forward for your case. I hit one big snag at one point and the immigration officer told me that 2 wrongs dont make a right. Hes absolutely right.

Re:Technicality? (4, Insightful)

JimBobJoe (2758) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034905)

How is this a technicality? He didn't have a visa to do the work here that he had contracted for.

Because at its very essence the visa wasn't needed--all that was needed was a piece of paper saying that he was working for a company in Germany who was sending him, instead of going over and being "employed" by a company as a trainer in the US.

This is dictionary definition of technicality. One sentence needed to be worded slightly differently even though both sentence variants meant, in terms of the business relationship, basically the same thing. One variant makes the immigration bureaucracy happy, the other blows a multi-thousand dollar trip.

Re:Technicality? (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034967)

Yeah, ok. I don't think you know the details. You're just speculating.

If the people in the US were paying his company in Germany for him to present then he is a contractor, working in the US.

Personally, whenever I go to the US, I stand at the border with no visa and say "yep, I'm here to attend meetings with my employer, catch up, that sort of thing" and they wave me through.

Re:Technicality? (1)

HomelessInLaJolla (1026842) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035093)

What they should've done was offer to buy some stocks in the German company on the international market and then let his company cut him in on a few priveleged options when he returned home. That's the way international players conduct their money-laundering.

A security researcher should definitely know how to get around such simple rules, don't you think?

Re:Technicality? (2, Insightful)

JimBobJoe (2758) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035111)

Yeah, ok. I don't think you know the details. You're just speculating.

What details are you suggesting I missed? Unless he is fibbing in his blog entry (linked in the summary) it had all the information necessary. No need to speculate.

If the people in the US were paying his company in Germany for him to present then he is a contractor, working in the US.

Under the Visa Waiver Program, an individual working in such a scenario is not considered "working in the US" until they hit 90 days. "The Visa Waiver Program (VWP) enables nationals of certain countries to travel to the United States for tourism or business for stays of 90 days or less without obtaining a visa." From here [state.gov] .

Re:Technicality? (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035237)

What details are you suggesting I missed? Unless he is fibbing in his blog entry (linked in the summary) it had all the information necessary. No need to speculate.
Exactly. There's two sides to every story. As for fibbing, that's often the first thing people do when confronted by border security. They think if they tell just a little white lie they'll get through the screen process faster. The result is the opposite, should they catch you in that lie.

"Will you be doing any work in the US?"
"No."
"Says here you are presenting at a conference."
"Uhh, yes, that's right."
"Are you being paid to present at this conference?"
"Umm, no."
"Well the documentation you've given me indicates that you will be.. come with me, Sir."

"Ok, so you are being paid to present at this conference, why did you lie to me?"

Things go downhill from there.

Re:Technicality? (1)

SnowZero (92219) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034909)

When a hacker finds some flaw and announces it with a zero-day exploit, some want us to call that "security research". So, when an immigration official finds a way to keep a hacker out of the country using existing laws (which apply equally to everyone), shouldn't that just be called "legal research"?

So, a hacker got owned; I for one think that is pretty funny. Just like a hacker might say to regular programmers, "next time he should be more careful."

Re:Technicality? (4, Insightful)

belmolis (702863) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034939)

It's a technicality because he wouldn't have needed a visa had the contract been between Blackhat and his company. What determines whether he gets in is whether he signed the contract as an individual or as the CEO of his company.

What bothers me about this is not so much that they picked up on this rather minor technicality but that the response is extreme and inflexible. Why not let him fix the technical flaw making the contract with his company? The reason they gave was that he couldn't do this because he had already applied as an individual. So what? That may be immigration policy, but its a stupid, inflexible policy. Similarly, it is ridiculous to bar him forever from using the visa waiver program, though they are indeed applying their normal policy to him. The assumption is that any violation of the rules should be treated as evidence that the individual is untrustworthy and should therefore have to go through the full visa application process. That is an obviously unsound assumption - there are plenty of cases like this one in which the violation is trivial and/or unintentional. Exclusion from the visa waiver program should be restricted to serious, intentional violations.

Re:Technicality? (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035183)

It's a technicality because he wouldn't have needed a visa had the contract been between Blackhat and his company. What determines whether he gets in is whether he signed the contract as an individual or as the CEO of his company.

That's actually incorrect. If he is coming under those circumstances he still needs a work visa, but instead of an H1-B it may be an E-1 or similar other classification that doesn't require as stringent an application process.

Re:Technicality? (1)

AtomicBomb (173897) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035123)

Yeah right. Please send a custom officer to each academic conference to arrest those evil foreign professors who "illegally" delivers workshops in advance of the main conferences. As long as the conference is truly international and world class, the officer can be guaranteed to catch a few Indian, Chinese, Japanese, German or Brits "work illegally without a permit".

As far as I know nearly every single one of them fills in the entry form as an individual who travels to US to attend a conference/ workshop. People got to realize these foreign professors or experts are doing US favor, rather than skimming the work opportunity of US citizen.

Re:Technicality? (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035271)

I am sure that academics traveling to the US generally realize what visa they will need. For example here is a web page provided by Duke Unversity that describes what is needed for visiting professors.

http://www.internationaloffice.duke.edu/int_visa_c lass.html [duke.edu]

The fact is this guy didn't do his homework, and was was caught up. He screwed up.

Just move BlackHat off the US! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034717)

It's clear that this kind of conference is now impossible to gather in the US, so relocate it in a free country. Why not Mexico, South Am, East Asia, Russia ?

Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (1)

hacker (14635) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034795)

Why not Mexico, South Am, East Asia, Russia ?

Because by the time the next conference happens, the US will have already shut its borders for anyone "suspect" of leaving the country to attend this conference, from attending.

And do you think they'll let you back into the country?

"What is the nature of your visit?"

"I'm speaking at a hacking conference."

"A what? Turn around and get back on the plane and don't come back."

Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (2, Interesting)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034897)

Why not Mexico, South Am, East Asia, Russia ?

Because by the time the next conference happens, the US will have already shut its borders for anyone "suspect" of leaving the country to attend this conference, from attending.

That may not be the wisest of ideas:

"The largest part of the attendees of the trainings are US-Government related folks, mostly working on US National Security in some form. I have trained people from the DoD, DoE, DHS and most other agencies that come to mind."

Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (1)

jshackney (99735) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035137)

Yes! Brilliant! How about Cuba, Venezuela, Qatar, China, Kurdistan, etc. ?

Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (1)

Lally Singh (3427) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034797)

Frankly, a lot of people wouldn't feel as safe there, nor would the conference seem as legitimate. Justified or not.

Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034835)

Completely agree. Choose a free country instead, all computer conferences and talks will eventually be outside the US given it's current removal of freedoms & idiotic immigration system.

Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (1)

Turn-X Alphonse (789240) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034849)

Because America is seen as "safe" (How safe is a country full of firearms and short tempered people..?) where as most of the above have a slight problem with lawlessness and some murder/kidnapping history.

Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034895)

The writing is on the wall, it is going to happen sooner or later. The US has become quite unpredictable, some of their laws or their implementations are orwellian and chaotic. The US used to be leading edge by attracting best of minds all over the world. This attraction has disappeared in the last 5-8 years.

Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (1)

Fujisawa Sensei (207127) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034917)

Perhaps you should check the 'liberal' immigration and visa laws in Mexico before you make sweeping statements like that.

Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (4, Insightful)

belmolis (702863) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034993)

Actually, this incident doesn't demonstrate any kind of problem with holding conferences in the US. If he had merely planned to attend the conference, he wouldn't have been denied entry. What got him in trouble was his plan to do training for two days prior to the conference, that is, to work in the United States. Granted, he was denied entry on a technicality that he should have been allowed to fix, but what that means is that if you want to work in the US you have to be careful.

Re:Just move BlackHat off the US! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035061)

+anything insightful for parent comment is retarded, unless of course it's a recognition of the absolute absurdity of the comment.

Mexico has some of the most hostile immigration laws in the Americas. They'll let rich tourists in at the drop of a hat, but if you want to do business or live there, good luck. You'll need to stand in line with a fistfull of cash like everyone else.

hm. (1, Troll)

priestx (822223) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034727)

Would it be a problem to set-up a video conference to train these people from around the world?

Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (-1, Troll)

brxndxn (461473) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034731)

Meanwhile.. the Walmart in my area is in Spanish. It's full of Mexicans.. lots and lots of mexicans.. and each mexican has at least 4 mexican kids..

Do they pay taxes? Do they pay their hospital bills? Nobody knows!

Are they illegal? YES!.. BUT THAT'S OKAY!!!

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (1)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034779)

Don't shop there. Convince others to do the same. I mean by this logic, every store that opens its doors in the states must flourish and last forever. Sadly that isn't the truth. Walmart prevails because people whine and bitch and shop there anyways.

Either don't shop there, or change labour laws to include more reasonable minimum wages for adults, language requirements, etc...

Tom

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (3, Insightful)

garcia (6573) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034801)

The ignorance level when it comes to illegal aliens is amazing. Being upset about illegal aliens is one thing but the blatant racism is not only unnecessary but it just makes you look like a fucking retard.

Next time, drop the rhetoric that has been so popular against homosexuals and illegal aliens recently and instead talk about it in civil terms.

Thanks.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (1)

abradsn (542213) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034937)

Maybe you missed something here? It didn't look like racist comments here. I live in Washington state. We have a lot of migrant workers. It's a fair assumption that the Mexicans that you see around where I live are illegal immigrants.

You can argue that is a sad state of affairs or any number of other things, but racist it is not.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (2, Insightful)

towermac (752159) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035099)

I missed the racism. Maybe it was "each one has 4 mexican kids". Kind of stereotypical but not too far above the average.
Explain it to us fucking retards, if you would.

I believe he was making a point about our laws being enforced selectively on a guy who likely was not going to "take" a job from any american, as opposed to illegal mexicans; where every job they take depresses wages and puts one of us out of work. ("us" includes americans of mexican descent, blacks, whites, guest alien workers - everybody).

Not only that, but the fact that they don't (can't) pay taxes and have to go to the emergency room for any medical care means it costs us a lot more than a lost job. Multiply that by the number of kids in the household.

Hell, if anything, a guy like this Dullien raises wages when he comes here to work, and we should be glad to have him. Not my first target in the enforcement of immigration laws.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (2, Insightful)

phantomlord (38815) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035127)

Being upset about illegal aliens is one thing but the blatant racism is not only unnecessary
How can we have a discussion about illegal aliens if one side is always going to cry "racism" in an appeal to emotion to try to shut the other side up? If his Walmart has illegal Mexicans in it, then they do. It's a statement of fact, not racism. Why, just last night, I saw four in my local Walmart in NY. How do I know they're illegals? I know the farmer they work for. Every spring they come up and every fall, he drives them back to Mexico. Am I suddenly being racist just because I said there were 4 illegal Mexicans there? I haven't made a judgment in any way. If you claim I made a judgment by calling them illegal aliens and I shouldn't use that word, well, tough. It's what they are and why are you the one who gets to frame the entire terminology of the debate?

That's one of the biggest problems in American politics today... nobody is willing to speak the truth because of constant appeals to emotion, ad hominems, character assassinations when the message is too strong to shoot down, etc.

Republicans want to starve your kids, kill the old people and erode the foundation of our country by eliminating immigration!
Democrats want to steal all your money, hate America and drive us back to the stone age!
Republicans hate minorities!
Democrats hate Christians!

Facts and logic rarely enter any political debate anymore, it's all about who can sling the most mud and frame their opponent into a seemingly evil corner.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (1)

garcia (6573) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035277)

I didn't ask him to STFU. I told him that he should not detract from his valid argument by being racist.

Two words. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035293)

but the blatant racism
Straw. Man.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035313)

man... shut up, fag.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (1)

Secrity (742221) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034839)

It is not OK if they are illegal -- and you or I have no idea whether they are illegal or not.

Even if they are illegal, they pay taxes because it is withheld from their pay checks. Illegals tend to overpay payroll taxes because although they pay withholding they don't get refunds; they also get social security and Medicare withheld from their wages.

They would be no more unlikely to pay their hospital bills than any other Wal-Mart employee.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034941)

Even if they are illegal, they pay taxes because it is withheld from their pay checks.

OK, how would an illegal worker get a SSN? How do you report taxing an employee who has no SSN?

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (1)

towermac (752159) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035185)

Even if they are illegal, they pay taxes because it is withheld from their pay checks. Illegals tend to overpay payroll taxes because although they pay withholding they don't get refunds; they also get social security and Medicare withheld from their wages.
Good point. Which is why politicians love them - they pay taxes and get work done with none of that pesky voting and other crap those ungrateful citizens are constantly whining about.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034861)

I am sure they pay taxes, either directly or indirectly. How do you buy gas, rent an apartment, or anything else in the US without getting taxes involved? The answer is that you can't. And the sad thing is some of these taxes like SS and Medicare will be for benefits that are never be traceable back to the person who paid for them.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035213)

How do you buy gas, rent an apartment, or anything else in the US without getting taxes involved?

Admittedly, I haven't lived in that many places in the USA, but I've never paid or heard of an apartment tax.

I don't want to go to the US anymore. (4, Insightful)

toQDuj (806112) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034743)

This is the reason I don't want to go to the US anymore.

Now I have to fear that the people here did not do their work properly (i.e. gave me the wrong visa application), and that I'll be rejected at the gates after standing in a huge queue before immigration at the airport.

The other reason is that after providing the security services with boatloads of personal information, fingerprints and other biometrics, some flag will go up in some obscure system, and I'll be (hopefully) sent back straight away by unnamed guys, and if I'm unlucky, get deported to the happy camp of Guantanamo inc. to have all human rights stripped from me for reasons unknown.

B.

Re:I don't want to go to the US anymore. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034809)

Oh quit your fucking lies. The only people in Guantanamo were shooting at Americans after teaching in terrorist training camps. He came here to work and didn't have a work visa. Get a fucking grip. Your country deports thousands of people a year for the same reason.

Re:I don't want to go to the US anymore. (0, Offtopic)

HomelessInLaJolla (1026842) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035043)

The only people in Guantanamo were shooting at Americans after teaching in terrorist training camps.
There you go with your pretend version of reality again.

Re:I don't want to go to the US anymore. (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035045)

Getting work visas seems to be an issue for Germans. Here is a story about a guy being deported from Thailand for the same reason:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic= 130082 [thaivisa.com]

He lucked out getting a suspended sentence on the jail time.

And here is an article where a Tibetan was deported from Germany when he was trying to attend a conference in Brussels (he was only in transit):

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?article=Ge rman+airport+authority+deports+on+baseless+ground+ %3A+Chairman+Karma+Choephel&id=16744&c=1&t=1 [phayul.com]

Conclusion: This sort of thing happens all over the world, and you really need someone experienced to set up your papers.

Re:I don't want to go to the US anymore. (1)

damista (1020989) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035217)

No, the people in Guantanamo are those who dared to shoot at Americans after they invaded their country...and some more who were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. The really big fish aren't there and your government isn't even interested in getting the really big fish. If Osama (who was trained by the CIA I may add) was gone, who would your government use as a boogeyman to justify taking away more and more of your freedom? Samuel Goldstein?

I must say, I am really disappointed. I always though that people who post on /. are the ones who haven't been completely brainwashed by the media. I thought people here know how to use their brains and look at the facts to form their own oppinion. Obviously I was mistaken. There are just as many mindless zombies, who believe everything the media throws at them, in here as in any other internet forum.

Re:I don't want to go to the US anymore. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034819)

That's OK, we don't want you. If you are not willing to follow our rules for entry into OUR country, then who knows what other rules you may break. And surprise, surprise: we are still the NUMBER ONE destination country for the rest of the world. Suck it up, because if you don't, we won't let you in and there are ten other people willing to follow the rules and come in place of your sorry ass.... I mean seriously...you sound like your on drugs or you have a (gay marriage?) bone to pick with us or something. Besides, shouldn't you be in church right now sonny boy? It IS Sunday you know.
 

Re:I don't want to go to the US anymore. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034955)

It also sounds like the original poster would probably be an Iraq-police-action protestor and likely a terrorist sympathizer too. Probably one of those civil rights long-hairs.

Re:I don't want to go to the US anymore. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035169)

Some of you Americans need to get over yourselves.

As for the issue here, they are just doing what small minded individuals in positions of authority do best. Petty harassment of legitimate people to make it look like they are all doing their jobs.

They did the exact same thing to the maintainer of the Linux 2.4 kernel at the time (Marcello Tosatti), who was there to attend a kernel summit. That's indeed twisting a technicality based on the type of visa that he had. Subsequent kernel summits were held in Canada.

Re:I don't want to go to the US anymore. (1)

huckda (398277) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034957)

Now I have to fear that the people here did not do their work properly (i.e. gave me the wrong visa application)
sorry to break it to you...but that is 100% and in ALL ENTIRETY....YOUR responsibility...

they will provide any visa application YOU ask for...it's your responsibility to ensure you have the proper one.

Re:I don't want to go to the US anymore. (3, Interesting)

griffjon (14945) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035143)

Hell I live here and I don't feel all that comfortable. And the gov't has my passport for renewal with no liklihood it'll get back to me any time soon.

Boo Fucking Hoo. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034749)

What a sensationalist article title. It's not a technicality at all, he would have been doing the training illegally. He may be a good hacker, but he certainly sucks at following proper procedure.

Cry me a river.

Re:Boo Fucking Hoo. (1)

toQDuj (806112) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034817)

What about the people that informed him which application to fill out? I mean, it's not common knowledge that for presenting a workshop at a conference you have to fill in visa application 157-12399-b. Oh, he's from Germany and earns more than 25k per year? then it's 157-12399-b'

B.

Re:Boo Fucking Hoo. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035105)

What about the people that informed him which application to fill out? I mean, it's not common knowledge that for presenting a workshop at a conference you have to fill in visa application 157-12399-b. Oh, he's from Germany and earns more than 25k per year? then it's 157-12399-b'

He is being treated like anyone else. A few years back, I was flying to Boston from Canada to attend the Materials Research Society [mrs.org] conference, where I would be giving an invited talk.

US Customs & Immigration asked me where I was from, where I was going, and what would I be doing there. I answered truthfully. They then asked me how much I was being paid to give my presentation. I laughed and truthfully said "Nothing. I have to pay to attend the conference."

They said, "Enjoy your stay", and that was it.

Despite being a white Canadian citizen, born in Canada, I am not entitled to work in the USA without the appropriate visa, even though engineers are covered by the North American Free Trade Agreement, and can get a TN visa at will. To get a TN visa you need to show that you are a citizen, that you have a job offer for one of the professions covered under NAFTA, and that you are a member of that profession. Very easy, no waiting, but you still have to get the visa.

It may come as a surprise for EU citizens who are used to travelling & working throughout the EU without a visa, let alone a passport, that there are formalities go though. Not that long ago, you needed all these things in the EU.

Now, it's much easier to claim a big conspiracy theory...

Re:Boo Fucking Hoo. (1)

seriesrover (867969) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035109)

First of its not obscure at all. Its an H1-B work visa - if anyone decided to *any* cursory check its all over the fucking place. Its very common knowledge and its ultimately his responsibility there. Just about every other country has similar sorts of work permits. Theres this thing, its called the internet. The information is readily at hand. If he got a work permit he'd be fine. And as the blurb says, he was contracted to do some work at\before the conference so hes not just there as an attendee.

Some guy didn't have the right visa... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034753)

Who gives a shit?

Sounds legit (-1, Troll)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034763)

He messed up, and now doesn't meet legal qualifications so he was sent home. I doubt it was some sinister plot, to enforce existing laws..

Now if we can send back the millions that DO get to come in when they shouldn't.

Re:Sounds legit (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034983)

I've known artists going to conventions in the US, from Canada, who didn't fill out the proper paperwork, and were turned away at the border by US Customs. They had their artwork with them, and since they were going to sell it in the US, needed a different visa.

Not that uncommon.

Re:Sounds legit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035197)

This is /. Everything is a sinister plot by the government, done for the reason of just being evil. No other reason. They just feel like being evil. Not sure why, but if you think for yourself and ask such questions, then you're obviously a stupid sheeple (and you don't think for yourself, also obvious) and deserve modded down instead of being replied to intelligently.

Why would an international conference be in the US (5, Insightful)

Rix (54095) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034799)

They've made it quite clear that they don't like "furriners", so why are people still pressing the issue? Canada is a free and open society, and just to the north. We have lots of conference space in environments much more conducive to rational thought.

Re:Why would an international conference be in the (1, Troll)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034913)

Yeah, except you can't take paid speaking engagements up here without a work visa either.

He wasn't denied because the session was on security, he was denied because he's NOT ALLOWED TO WORK THERE without proper approval.

He would have been deported from Canada for the exact same reason had he told them the same story. In fact, if he wasn't a member of the EU he would have also been deported from Ireland, the UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, etc, etc, etc....

So while Canada is cool and all [hey I live in Ottawa], it's not a safe haven for illegal aliens either. They have to file fraudulent "refugee" claims like the rest of the population of Toronto.

Re:Why would an international conference be in the (1)

whathappenedtomonday (581634) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035011)

In fact, if he wasn't a member of the EU he would have also been deported from Ireland, the UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, etc, etc, etc....

Utter BS. Where do you get that kind of information?!

Re:Why would an international conference be in the (1)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035055)

Because I've been to Ireland, UK, France, Romania, and Switzerland.

In all but France have I been told that working is strictly forbidden. So unless he lived in a country that had a treaty, he probably wouldn't be able to work there [hence the non-EU comment].

Tom

Re:Why would an international conference be in the (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035029)

Maybe if the powers in Ottawa [home of the federal government, responsible for immigration policies and legislation] move their ass, it would be less of an option to file fraudulent refugee claims in Toronto.

Re:Why would an international conference be in the (2, Insightful)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035067)

... arrg ... The federal MPs are made up of elected officials from ALL OVER CANADA. I'm so sick and tired of "Ottawa" getting the wrap for what the federal government does.

If you hate the way things are look at what your MPs are doing.

Re:Why would an international conference be in the (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034979)

Yeah, Canada's huge on handing out working visas. Maybe you should have read the article, or perhaps the summary, or a few of the comments before swimming straight out of your depth.

On the other hand, you bashed the US. That's an automatic insightful around here.

From personal experience, I'd disagree (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035291)

Canada's really no better, I got held by Canadian immigration at Ottawa airport and pretty much interrogated for 3 hours the first time I ever visited. I'm not pretending it's a common occurance but they asked many things they have no business asking (What my income is for example) and made a record of this as I've been back 5 times since and whilst I never got sent through to the immigration office since they've still brought up various parts of the original interrogation. They also searched the contents of my laptop, opening various personal documents (C.V. etc.) and took my fingerprint and my photo.

I was only there for a holiday and frankly it's the worst I've ever been treated by any customs/immigration service in any country (including the US). Don't get me wrong however, I completely agree with the sentiment of your post, however I think you'll find most customs/immigration services have their fair share of assholes who like powertripping with people powerless to do anything - during my ordeal I was told they'd send me home on the next flight back if I was lying on a few occasions even though I told them the gods honest truth in answer to every question.

In hindsight I wish I'd challenged them more, because I'm not convinced many of the things they asked me were within their legal remit although I could be wrong, furthermore they clearly logged data which again I'm pretty sure isn't in their legal remit, however after contacting the Canadian embassy in London for information on how I could put forward a complaint I was told the only way was to fax them and that it could take upto 3 months for a response to each fax which frankly was pretty useless.

If you really want a free country to host this type of convention try Norway or Sweden perhaps, when I went to Narvik it was literally straight off the plane, into the arrivals lounge and out the airport, that is, there was absolutely no checking of passports at all however this could presumably be because they figure if British airport security is letting them through then they must have been checked rigorously enough to get through Norwegian seemingly non-existent airport security.

Simple (2)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034877)

just sneak across the Mexico-US border. That's how everyone else gets in. Planes and paperwork? Pfffft, old school.
       

Re:Simple (2, Insightful)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034883)

Or just lie and say it's free. Honestly, if you're only gonna be there a few days it probably won't hurt the economy ANY to just lie. Of course don't get caught :-)

Not A Good Sign (5, Interesting)

Effugas (2378) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034921)

Halvar's been kicked out of the US?

This is not good. It's my understanding that once you've been kicked out, it's much, much, much harder to get back in.

That leaves me rather scared. I've known Halvar for almost six years; we were in Singapore together at Black Hat Asia. He's a very intelligent engineer, doing very good research, and has done more than almost anyone to make people realize that obfuscation is not security. We, as an industry, need his voice. (A bit cynical, but seriously, we as an American industry want his talents put to work here, rather than overseas.)

Simple arguments like -- nobody could figure out how this works, they'd have to be able to read code -- have been destroyed because of Halvar's work. You may not realize it, but without concrete examples of attacks, software developers simply cannot comprehend attacks against their code that they can't do themselves. Halvar is a critical innoculation against technically inept but vaguely plausable excuses why something must be impossible.

Halvar does the impossible regularly. Seriously, he's an artist, and the American security industry is directly harmed by not being able to learn from him. What's the story going to be? That Halvar can only do training in India, and China, and in Europe? Yes, that sounds like a wonderful idea. Everyone else's code gets more secure while ours rots on the vine.

The only thing more embarrassing than this was when Xioyun Wang, the Chinese professor who cracked MD5, was denied entry to the US. Oh well, Halvar, I guess you're in good company...

--Dan Kaminsky

What a sad state of affairs... (1)

LLKrisJ (1021777) | more than 7 years ago | (#20034953)

Maybe (definitely) a bit off topic, but reading this stuff just pisses me off a bit... What did the US ever achieve with all of its draconian checks and procedures in airports and all of their visa crap? Other than (borderline) infringing on the privacy of many innocent individuals it will never be able to stop the most determined people with bad intentions (or desperate Mexican or other immigrants at that). It is deeply disturbing that the USA hands out billions to Israel for military purposes whilst on the other hand supplying Egypt, Saudi Arabia and God knows who else with weapons. What are they expecting? Arming to groups of people who have had beef for ages to the teeth and then expecting everybody to play nice? They are just creating their own (and everybody elses) problems. No measure of retina scans, fingerprinting and other niceties will ever be able to avert the inevitable consequences their foreign policy will have.

I sure wish... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20034965)

I sure wish those goons would show up at the house down the street from me that is occupied by 4 illegal alien families, and deport them for not having the right visa...

But of course that would be racism, deporting 4 mexican families who have been violating immigration laws for years and letting some guy into the US for less than a week on a business trip he's been making without incident for years.

The US govt is incompetent in SOOO many ways, but they're pretty damn good at rigorous enforcement of this double standard.

Don't let your biases override your reason (0)

maelstrom (638) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035041)

While I do think that Homeland "Security" is out of control, this doesn't seem like a good example of it.

Put yourself in custom's shoes.

You search a bag and find a bunch of materials for black hat hacking.

Maybe you look up Blackhat Hacking on wikipedia:

"A black-hat is a term in computing for someone who compromises the security of a system without permission from an authorized party, usually with the intent of accessing computers connected to the network."

You ask the guy about it and say, "Are you getting paid to present these materials?"

"Yes."

"Do you have a permit to work in the USA?"

"No."

In your mind, case closed at that point. I'm sorry this happened, but is it really so shocking?

WRONG VISA (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035047)

He had the wrong fucking visa, why are there so many people here who hate the US saying ZOMG HE GOT DEPORTZ0R3D FCUK THE UNITED STATES I HATE AMERICANS? Big fucking deal people, it happens every day. You just get all inflamed over the stupidest things. Now go back to being afraid that the evil Americans are going to send you to Guantanamo because you picked your nose in the customs line. Fucktards.

RTFA People (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035053)

If you read the article you would see it wasn't immigration that stopped him it was customs when they searched his bags and found the training materials.

So is was a technicality that he did not get into the country. He passed through immigration one time, then got stopped because of training material in the suitcase, which led to the interview after which he was deported.

I'll be the first to rail against the US but... (2, Insightful)

Hangtime (19526) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035081)

every country has this issue. All countries don't like foreigners taken their jobs. Look into any work visa program in any country and it is extremely difficult to gain authorization and very easy to make mistakes. When I was traveling back and forth to Canada with my company I was ALWAYS sure to brief the customs people that I was not there "for work" but rather "attending business meetings." There is a large difference.

Re:I'll be the first to rail against the US but... (1)

goaliemn (19761) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035155)

Exactly. I do work overseas and have similar issues. Every country has rules like this, some worse than the US. Try getting a job in Canada and be a US Citizen. Its not that easy.

DMCA (1, Funny)

spoonist (32012) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035167)

Well at least he wasn't denied entry and/or sent to Gitmo [wikipedia.org] on DMCA [wikipedia.org] grounds.

Should have just snuck in (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20035203)

He should have just snuck across the Southern Border. The administration doen't seem to have a problem with the thousands of people who have done it already.

We don't need no education! (4, Funny)

geoff lane (93738) | more than 7 years ago | (#20035239)

Thank god, the US has no need of foreigners coming in and teaching. If that kind of crazy idea caught on, all hell would break loose. The population might become sufficiently educated to start to question the silly rules.
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