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PS3 Issues Caused GTA IV Delay?

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the cue-wacky-sad-noise dept.

Sony 117

Dr. Eggman writes "According to statements made by Michael Pachter on Gamasutra, 'The Rockstar team had difficulty in building an exceptionally complicated game for the PS3, and failed to recognize how far away from completion the game truly was until recently.' The article goes on to describe an agreement between Rockstar and Sony not to favor the 360 by releasing their version first, necessitating the delay on the 360 as well. Pachter's comments are interesting, because all Take-Two has been willing to say is that 'technological issues' were causing the hold-up. "

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117 comments

Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (2, Insightful)

pl1ght (836951) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102645)

Oh i guess its to be expected. Nowhere in the article does it blame the PS3 for the delays. It specifically states BOTH systems have their technological issues that they need to work through. In typical Slashdot fashion, it is turned into an anti-ps3 article. Way to be unbiased in the news reporting once again.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (4, Informative)

Carbonite (183181) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102753)

RTFA. The first paragraph of the article:

Wedbush Morgan's Michael Pachter says Take-Two management has "stumbled badly for the first time" with the delay of GTA IV, and said that he believes difficulties porting the game to the PlayStation 3 are to blame and that the company's new green light policy appears to be a failure.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (4, Interesting)

sammy baby (14909) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102887)

I'm reading the exact sentence you quoted, but I'm getting a different vibe from it.

The quote says that the difficulty was specifically in porting the environment. Not "the PS3 is hard to develop for," or "we developed this in parallel on the 360 and PS3 and the PS3 version has been harder to do." Just that they developed it on one, and porting it is more difficult than they expected.

I'm happy to blame Sony for a ton of stuff, but it's too early to lay this at their feet.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (3, Insightful)

Carbonite (183181) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103045)

The GP was claiming that the article never blamed the PS3 for a delay, presenting this as evidence of Zonk's bias. This simply isn't true, as the quote I provided proves. You can make the argument that Sony shouldn't be blamed for the delay, but it's obvious that they are being blamed for the delay (at least in the article).

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104521)

The article never blames the PS3 for the delay, and your comment only proves that you are deluded. If it takes three years to walk from Tegucigalpa to Anchorage, that's not Anchorages fault, and that's exactly the sort of delay we're having.

Just because the article says that importing to PS3 is a taking time doesn't mean the PS3 is the problem. You'd need to prove that the porting is hard because of some kind of issue with the PS3. Of COURSE porting to a radically different system is tough. Just like walking a long way takes time.

It's amazing how much people hate Sony! And it's got nothing to do with Sony! Am I really supposed to believe some rootkit thing justifies this kind of bias?

In a sec some crazy nutball will accuse me of being on the sony payroll. Just for stating the obvious fact that this article doesn't negatively implicate the PS3. Slashdot has gotten ridiculous.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20105519)

That analogy isn't really relevant. Sony made a DESIGN decision to go with a more complex processor. My buddy working at EA says that working on vector processors is slow, but that they are getting the hang of it. He said once you get used to em they are really quite powerful. Had Sony gone with a standard multicore chip, porting would be less difficult. There would still be hardware differences but the threading would be the same.

So in your case Anchorage could build a train to make the journey quicker (if they WANT more people), and in this case MS went with a more simplified architecture to decrease the learning curve of working on the system.
Now I dont mean to go "blaming Sony" because thats not the point, I just wanted to point out that your analogy holds, but for the opposite way (that in both situations the town/company HAVE/HAD control over the process. Whether it be adding a train, or making the system less complicated.
And no I dont think you are on Sony's payroll. I think the people here need to get a life and quit bashing the system opposite of their own. They are 2 different systems and while the games are similar right now (short term lack of PS3 exclusives) I think its going to be really interesting come a year or two which direction the PS3 takes. I still am curious about how the small 3rd party attach rate to the PS3 will be, the very same attach rate that made the ps2 an undeniable success.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (1)

GrayCalx (597428) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103141)

I'm happy to blame Sony for a ton of stuff, but it's too early to lay this at their feet.

I definitely agree with you here. Even if it is a specific problem within the PS3, a delay wouldn't be Sony's fault. And while I really don't want to throw Rockstar under the bus, the issue we're seeing is a result of Rockstar having underestimated how long it would take them to get the game working, properly, on both systems.

I'm trying to think of a good analogy here... maybe if my company made a bid on a project and said we'll integrate this new software into your network in x days. We start working and realize, wow this software is tricky its going to take us x+20 days. The company that hired us isn't going to blame the software, they'd blame my company. We gave them an estimate (Rockstar giving the gaming community a release date) but we underestimated what was required of us and now it's going to take us longer (Rockstar pushing back the release date).

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (2, Interesting)

svnt (697929) | more than 6 years ago | (#20106521)

Remember that this is a financial analyst [wedbushinc.com], not anyone associated with the company. While he is no doubt only responsible for a limited number of companies, little information is given about his technical background. We can most likely assume he has little to no experience in software development. For him, "porting" could very well translate to "the versions are being developed in parallel and the PS3 version is taking longer".

But as you said, it is far too early to blame the PS3. The article even states he's guessing.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (1)

Rayonic (462789) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102807)

Uh, the Gamasutra article clearly blames the PS3 (right or wrong). You're just being a knee-jerk.

Also, Take Two did say that both platforms had their difficulties, but:
A) Perhaps they're being diplomatic.
or
B) It's possible that one platform's "difficulties" are more dire than the other's.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20102907)

The ENTIRE ARTICLE mentions it as being PS3 problems. At least one specific mention per paragraph.

Reading is hard :((((((((((((((((((

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (1)

joshsisk (161347) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102955)

Nowhere in the article does it blame the PS3 for the delays.

Huh? The TITLE of the article linked is "Pachter: PS3 Port Caused GTA IV Delay" - now, that might be biased, but it's not Zonk's bias...

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (1, Funny)

HTTP Error 403 403.9 (628865) | more than 6 years ago | (#20105063)

Nowhere in the article does it blame the PS3 for the delays.

Huh? The TITLE of the article linked is "Pachter: PS3 Port Caused GTA IV Delay" - now, that might be biased, but it's not Zonk's bias...
Hey no fair! You're using facts to support your argument. You need to be posting unsubstantiated rumors and bald faced lies! We have high standards on /.!

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (2, Funny)

Nephilium (684559) | more than 6 years ago | (#20109507)

Right! I think I've got the hang of it now!

This guy I work with has a brother who's married to the sister of the lead developer at Rockstar's cleaning man! He said the problem they're having is that the Blu-Ray system requires three sacrificed kittens for each disc. They're trying to get enough kittens in order to provide for the launch day rush. So the problem is entirely Sony's. Sony promised it would only take half a kitten.

That work better? :)

Nephilium

RTFA much? (3, Informative)

Alzheimers (467217) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102987)

Title of the article:
"Pachter: PS3 Port Caused GTA IV Delay"

Quoted verbatim from the article (emphasis mine):
"Wedbush Morgan's Michael Pachter says Take-Two management has "stumbled badly for the first time" with the delay of GTA IV, and said that he believes difficulties porting the game to the PlayStation 3 are to blame and that the company's new green light policy appears to be a failure."

The only confusing part is how you missed all that.

Re:RTFA much? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103263)

well seeing that this is no official statement from rockstar, i'd quote the article differently:

"Wedbush Morgan's Michael Pachter says Take-Two management has "stumbled badly for the first time" with the delay of GTA IV, and said that he believes difficulties porting the game to the PlayStation 3 are to blame and that the company's new green light policy appears to be a failure."

one guy thinks they're having issues with the ps3 and sooner than you know it, everyone's reporting this as being a fact. Information sure is a funny toy...

Re:RTFA much? (1)

king-manic (409855) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103319)

Michael Pachter does not work for Rockstar. He's an analyst. So it's like taking my word forit that they have sharks with lazerbeams patrolling the Iraqie gulf. of here:

"slashdots King-manic says Take-Two management has "stumbled badly for the first time" with the delay of GTA IV, and said that he believes difficulties are related to the lack of strippers in the Take two office."

Given it's not the first time Take-two has stumbled. And it's nto a port his opinion is pretty highly suspect.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (4, Insightful)

Anamanaman (97418) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103225)

Considering the RAGE engine is initially developed for the 360 (Table Tennis), its a fair assumption to make.

Also, Rockstar isnt the only ones having problems. Its widely known that EA sports games on PS3 are currently running at half the frame rate of the 360 version. Also, every Unreal Engine 3 based game on the PS3 this year has had major technical issues (slowdowns, glitches). Its not like its the PS3's fault. 360 was a year ahead of them, and developers are more familiar with it.

Take Two really cant afford this slip. They are in big trouble as it is, and this might sink them (or force them to sell out to another company). They should have gone the traditional route of timed exclusive on a platform (either PS3 or 360). They would have been able to get a nice chunk of change from the console maker plus been able to completely focus on that single platform. And in 6 months they could port it to all the other systems.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (1)

nschubach (922175) | more than 6 years ago | (#20108205)

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Microsoft touted releasing GTA this year and seemed to rub it in everyone's face that you couldn't play it on any other system this winter. So that tells me that the 360 version should be ready for release at a separate time than the PS3. Why would trouble porting to the PS3 cause them to delay a version that was already ready for the 360?

Even if it wasn't stated to come out earlier than the PS3 version, I still don't buy the idea that Sony paid them to release at the same time. There are a number of titles that have been going times exclusive.

On top of that, "hardware" was touted as the reason. Maybe Microsoft is getting rid of the core 360 this fall and they wanted to release GTA as a HDD only game. Doing so while the core was still sold would be seen as alienating a part of the 360 users. After the core is discontinued, they can market it together and say (just like they did with Gears) that they listened to the devs and changed the machine to suit. (and you know they will...)
Anyway, I still smell fish.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (2, Insightful)

jamie(really) (678877) | more than 6 years ago | (#20104315)

Zonk did post the article title with a question mark at the end of it, which to me implied that it was not fact, but a question. The analyst asserts that the PS3 is a port of the 360 version, and speculates that this caused the delay, and further goes on to speculate why this would also delay the 360 version. Hence the question mark in the title.

If the PS3 version is a port of the 360, that's very interesting information. Early in the PS2 / Xbox generation, most developers made PS2 games and ported to the XBox, and it was easy, because the XBox was in many ways more powerful and had a harddrive. (I base this opinion on concrete experience of shipping PS2/XBOX1 games). With the early PS3/360 titles, many developers have a 360 title or engine, and then port to the PS3. In some ways its similar: the later platform in each case (XBOX1 then, PS3 now) has a harddrive while the earlier platform doesn't (PS2 then, 360 now). However, in the most significant ways, its different. The XBox1 and the 360 are "easy" to program. It was easy to go from the PS2 to the 360. It's clearly not easy to go from the 360 to the PS3. The PS3 is a fantastically powerful beast (the Cell is one of my favorite chips of all time), but it simply cannot be programmed like a 360.

The upshot is that because Sony failed to get to market first, and because Sony continued their direction of creating extremely complicated hardware, developers are failing to transition titles from 360 to PS3. The result is more 360 exclusives and more delayed PS3 releases.

The average PS3 zealot may not care about a game that was coming out on the 360 anyway. "It couldn't have been any good because it didn't use full power of the PS3 if it ran on a 360" they say. But for many people, and for many developers, its a reason to not buy / support the PS3. And it is Sony's responsibility.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104781)

I am a programmer let me translate "easy" for you. It means 'i know how to do that but have not thought it thru and will break if you look at it wrong'. "complex" means 'it doesnt look like what I have been using so its crap'.

Also remember the 360 guys are using visual studio. If MS ported that to linux I would switch to it in a heartbeat. It is a VERY powerfull editor/gui/dev/source control/managment tool all balled up into 1 suite. That is what they mean by 'easy'. Its not as big of a pain to use. Programmers are LAZY folk. *TRUST* me (as i write this when I should be coding)...

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (1, Informative)

ravenshrike (808508) | more than 6 years ago | (#20105295)

Dude, they fucking removed flying capability cause the 360 can't support the draw rate needed. Now, it's true that flying's not THAT integral to the game, but it's quite a nice addition. That's however the biggest most clear cut example. What else did they have to gimp to support the 360's lack of ability that we don't know about?

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (1)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 6 years ago | (#20105987)

Was there anything about the draw rate anywhere that I can read? I remember reading about the flying being taken out, but the reason I read was completely different.

Re:Way to spin it into a PS3 problem zonk. (0, Flamebait)

My name is Bucket (1020933) | more than 6 years ago | (#20107197)

Indeed. To paraphrase Jon Stewart: "I like how you can make baseless accusations, but appear even-handed by posing your slanderous headlines in question form."

Next on the news: 99% of Slashdotters actually have no fucking clue what any of these supposed PS3 development issues are?

Return of the "zonked" tag (-1, Troll)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102733)

Please tag this story as "Zonked" to remind Zonk not to return to his bad old habits.

Re:Return of the "zonked" tag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20102921)

The editors post what the users submit. The vast majority of the users want to see Sony fail so you see bad news about the PS3 constantly.

Stop harassing the editors to try to get them to support your minority views. The PS3 is doomed.

Re:Return of the "zonked" tag (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103251)

"The PS3 is doomed."

Thanks for making me smile, that's the funniest thing I've read all day :) When the PS3 comes down in price, it will do fine. I may even get it just to play GTA IV, rather than waiting for the PC release as I've always done in the past (thought I hate playing on a console with a controller rather than being able to use my mouse for pwnz0r headshot aiming, but it's decent enough while driving the cars, and the graphics will probably be as good as the PC version too)

Re:Return of the "zonked" tag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103311)

> When the PS3 comes down in price, it will do fine.

Earth to somersault!

The PS3 is outselling the 360 by 2 to 1 worldwide right now...

But I'm sure Sony appreciates the vote of confidence - no matter how delusional it was.

Re:Return of the "zonked" tag (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 6 years ago | (#20108579)

Okay.. when the PS3 comes down in price.. it will do much better ;) I've heard plenty of people say that they're just waiting for the price to dip lower before they themselves take the plunge. My uncle has one because he's a total Sony fanboy (PS1, PS2, VAIOs, Aibo, Bravia, PSP, now PS3..) and is loaded, and one of my ex workmates has one because we got it as a leaving present (he was one of the people who were gonna wait for the price to drop before getting one), but those with an ounce of sanity are probably waiting until more games come out and the price drops a bit.. :P

Damn PS3's (-1, Flamebait)

Actually, I do RTFA (1058596) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102741)

He said it was a challenge to create an ambitious game for two very different platforms but declined to say what the hitches actually were. "The technology that we're developing for 'Grand Theft Auto IV' is pretty complex. It's a big game. There are technical challenges across the board on both PS3 and 360. Our intention is to create a game that is the same experience on both 360 and PS3. I know that there have been rumors in the market about frame-rate and some other issues. We don't think it's helpful or beneficial to go into what the technological issues are. We are pushing the envelope on both platforms."

So, trying to make two different engines is twice as hard? No shit. But I think it's fair to blame this on the PS3, because their stupid architecture is the one that deviated from the standard.

Re:Damn PS3's (2, Funny)

UbuntuDupe (970646) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102927)

Yeah, even making *one* difference engine is hard. I heard one guy [wikipedia.org] tried to make one for fifty years ... and failed!

Re:Damn PS3's (5, Insightful)

fistfullast33l (819270) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103137)

But I think it's fair to blame this on the PS3, because their stupid architecture is the one that deviated from the standard.

Who said there was a "standard" gaming architecture? What part of the PS3 is not standard? It has a processor, a motherboard, a hard drive (hell, the 360 doesn't even adhere to that standard), RAM, a CD/DVD/Blu-Ray disc drive. I know, it's the wireless card that's throwing Rockstar off!

Want to dive in deeper? You have to deal with threading in the cell, core duo (2), and of course the PowerPC. The only difference is the division of the work to the cells, and Sony has released software to help deal with that. The 360 has that newfangled Unified Shader pipeline versus the PS3's traditional pixel/vertex pipeline.

So what's exactly not standard? The fact that you have those mysterious cells that no one knows what to do with? It's all API'd out at this point. Sony released help for developers [joystiq.com] at the GDC six months ago. So I don't think it's really a good argument to say that it's such a craaaazy hard platform to program for anymore. There's help there if they want this.

Even Pachter said, this was a failure of management to figure out that it was taking so long. They should have known this weeks ago. I personally was surprised to find out that they were going to be able to develop this game so quickly - look at MGS and FFXIII, they're taking much longer.

Re:Damn PS3's (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103351)

Actually it doesn't have one processor. It has seven of them that the developer must use in tandem in order to achieve any level of real performance. The Cell of the PS3 is like having a V8 engine without a timing belt. Yes, it can be damned fast, but only if you can manage to get each SPU processing chunks of data and completing their jobs in a timely manner without having any of the "luxuries" of synchronization features that every other flavor of SMP, including that in the XBox 360, have had since SMP first came into existence. What's worse is that the SPUs don't speak the same language as the CPU so you can't just take a normal task and thread it like you can on a normal SMP system; each task has to be built specifically to be handled by the SPU.

So yes, the PS3 introduces a number of unique challenges. The only other console system which was similarly difficult to program was the PS2 which was basically the same infrastructure except instead of 7 SPUs it had 2, and developers still complained about how massively difficult it was to work with.

Re:Damn PS3's (4, Insightful)

fitten (521191) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103703)

Actually... to extend your simile, it's like an 8-cylinder (not necessarily a 'V') where two of the cylinders are of one size and run on standard gasoline (PPE) and the others (SPE) run on diesel and are a different size and crank length (to reflect the differences in capabilities) and there's no timing belt or single crank shaft or valves :) It's up to the programmers to keep the cylinders fed at the right times and synchronize all of them properly and in ways such that the power can be applied efficiently to the transmission :)

Re:Damn PS3's (0, Redundant)

fistfullast33l (819270) | more than 6 years ago | (#20105263)

It's up to the programmers to keep the cylinders fed at the right times and synchronize all of them properly and in ways such that the power can be applied efficiently to the transmission

Which highlights my point - Sony has released tools to make this easier. So the argument that the SPEs are so hard to deal with is moot.

Re:Damn PS3's (3, Informative)

fitten (521191) | more than 6 years ago | (#20106253)

Which highlights my point - Sony has released tools to make this easier. So the argument that the SPEs are so hard to deal with is moot.


"Dealing" with the SPEs is trivial. An API to take a pointer, a byte count, and a destination to trigger a DMA is trivial to write. Having seven processors all working on a portion of the same problem by communicating and computing efficiently and calling those APIs at the appropriate times is the hard part. So far, that hasn't been solved for the general case (by anyone on any machine) and is still done by using gray matter. To paraphrase the old joke... calling an API is easy... knowing when to call it... that's the hard part.

To say it another way... in parallel programming, data partitioning and data flow are the hard parts of the problem to solve. Once you figure out that, the program kind of falls out based on those things. Knowing how to call an API with the right parameters is trivial. There are no efficient automated mechanisms to solve data partitioning and dataflow for the general cases. Some cases are pretty easy and have solutions (and tools to do it for you) like dataflow pipelines. Other than that, people write libraries to solve certain problems like large sparse matrix solvers, large dense matrix solvers, and such.

So... no... I highly doubt Sony has released tools that make writing parallel programs easy for the general case. It doesn't matter whether or not dealing with an SPE and communication is easy or not. Parallelising an AI algorithm, for example, that's the hard part and has to be done before you even touch the API.

Re:Damn PS3's (1)

voxel (70407) | more than 6 years ago | (#20109087)

You have no point to highlight. Releasing API's to make it easier to pass code to each SPE is by far the hard part of any of this.

Multi-threading in general isn't easy. Game developers generally don't do much multi-threading. I remember reading about John Carmack once "leaping forward and putting the audio code into a different thread".

Now, the PS3 has fairly slow processors, just a lot of them. To use 7 threads to get the power out of it is not only difficult, sometimes impossible given an algorithm or game.

Take it to the extreme if it'll help you, think about the following. Instead of 7 SPE's, pretend there are 4,000 SPE's, but each one only runs at 1.00mhz. Well, you've got yourself 4ghz (4,000mhz) of power in theory, good luck programming GTA IV to run on it. It will never happen in any amount of time that a development budget would allow, if it is even possible at all.

The PS3's development model of massive parallelism would of worked better if each core wasn't starved for memory and slow bus bandwidth etc...

Then you could write GTA IV using a single core, or main + a single SPE and get the same performance of the 360, but alas this isn't the case.

It'll probably be 10 years before massively parallelized games are mainstream and developers can write code to optimize for it as easy as writing single threaded code today.

Re:Damn PS3's (1)

Cheeko (165493) | more than 6 years ago | (#20105687)

Additionally the API's are there from Sony, but that doesn't mean they are in a form that makes them easy to use. Because of the underlying asymmetry in the cells, its likely that you can't just use a simple API call to get the same effect that you can with what is essentially a DX API call on the 360.

AKA: its not just take 360 API to do X and change it into PS3 API to do X.

Despite having the new shader and everything else in the 360, it likely sticks to the same DX style API calls and the developer never needs to care what the shader is underneath it all. Just like you can buy a new graphics card for your PC and DX will handle any new changes to shader technology.

Re:Damn PS3's (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104791)

Wow, did you, like, read that on teh Internet?

I honestly wish people as stupid as you would just fucking die. Right now. Because it isn't just ignorance or simply not being bright enough to understand console hardware and development, it's a willful stupidity that is sickening to read for anyone who sits at a desk writing console games.

What has it been, seven years? And dimwitted fanboys are still sitting around in console forums discussions trying to spout off about which system is 'hard teh program' 'cuz it's not like the pc on my desk' or a million other bits of idiocy like you rambled about.

I really don't know what the fuck you dunces think you are accomplishing? Seven years you would think that that bit of FUD would have finally accomplished something. It's like some poor fuck who keeps telling a lame joke over and over again hoping someone will eventually laugh at it.

Get a fucking life dummy.

Re:Damn PS3's (1)

Richthofen80 (412488) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103391)

So what's exactly not standard? The fact that you have those mysterious cells that no one knows what to do with? It's all API'd out at this point. Sony released help for developers [joystiq.com] at the GDC six months ago. So I don't think it's really a good argument to say that it's such a craaaazy hard platform to program for anymore. There's help there if they want this.

Rockstar is having an easier time with the 360 because they already released a game on the 360 (Table Tennis). Any knowledge and code they obtained by writing that game naturally carried over into the next project. The PS3 is uncharted territory, relatively speaking.

I wouldn't be surprised if its easier to pump out a game on the 360 versus the PS3. Microsoft is a software company, Sony is a hardware company. Even amateurs can write code that runs on the 360 with Microsoft's XNA initiative (which I found really easy to use, coming from a web programming / open source background). I'm not saying Sony isn't a good company, or that their system is bad, because I was a big booster of the original Playstation (I believed using CD media and complex controllers was an important revolution that they helped foster), but now the focus is on HD graphics and sound and game complexity. The enhanced hardware handles the graphics and sound, and an easy to use API allows rapid application development so that more complexity can be added to a game in the same amount of time.

Re:Damn PS3's (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104657)

Always nice to get the input of an idiot...

Re:Damn PS3's (3, Informative)

Fallen Kell (165468) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103293)

But I think it's fair to blame this on the PS3, because their stupid architecture is the one that deviated from the standard.

But what is this "standard" that you are talking about? In game consoles, there is no such thing. Each console is simply the standard for that particular console, no more, no less.

Interesting... (3, Interesting)

FreeKill (1020271) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102757)

If it truly is a PS3 only problem that is causing this delay, Microsoft should just throw money at Take-Two to get them to release the 360 version early. Would be a big kick to Sony. Sadly, they are probably contractually obligated though...

Re:Interesting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103625)

Hey, maybe it's a Wii problem? Or, golly, maybe it's Sun spots? Or maybe it's this crazy post-9-11 world we are living in?

It couldn't possibly be Rockstar struggling to fit a game that models and streams an entire city into a disc that is smaller than was used for last gen's GTA games and no harddrive to rely on.

Nope, couldn't possibly be that...

Re:Interesting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104671)

No, or they would have said that.
It makes me laugh that you sony fanboys were all in a tiff the other day when this was first announced, and now you have to face how wrong you were when it's a confirmed PS3 problem.

Re:Interesting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104875)

"No, or they would have said that."

Uh, dude. Rockstar did say exactly that... Actually they have talked about the problems the smaller than last gen 360 storage was giving them. And they also stated that they didn't know at that time how they were going to solve the 360 disc space problem.

With this delay due to the 360 it is clear they still haven't figured out what to do about getting the game to run on the 360.

Re:Interesting... (1)

IrquiM (471313) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103685)

Well'we've heared earlier that TakeTwo has just as much problems trying to fit everything on DVD9 as they have difficulties programming for a new platform...

Probably a combination of those two which are hard to get compatible or something.

"Zonked" again... (5, Insightful)

Intellectual Elitist (706889) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102809)

As the first article states, it's only the uninformed opinion of a financial analyst that PS3 development difficulties were responsible for the delay. Of course, the financial analyst also believes the PS3 version is a port of the 360 version, when in fact the PS3 has always been the lead platform for the game. Shows how much his opinion is worth.

Rockstar says they have challenges on both platforms (likely Cell development on the PS3 and stuffing everything onto a DVD-9 on the 360). Nothing to see here, folks...

Re:"Zonked" again... (3, Interesting)

Rayonic (462789) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102943)

he PS3 has always been the lead platform for the game

Interesting. Link?

Wikipedia makes no mention [wikipedia.org] of this fact, though it does mention that they're using the RAGE engine [wikipedia.org] from their earlier Xbox 360 release, Table Tennis.

Re:"Zonked" again... (1)

Intellectual Elitist (706889) | more than 6 years ago | (#20107201)

I can't find the original interview from early in the year where I read someone from Rockstar saying that, but here are some supporting [ukrebellion.com] links [gamedaily.com].

Re:"Zonked" again... (1)

DaveCBio (659840) | more than 6 years ago | (#20109319)

So, in other words you pulled this "fact" out of your ass and have nothing to back up the statement. All signs point to the fact that you are very mistaken. Considering they demo on the 360 AND have already released a title using their new engine on the 360. For an "Intellectual Elitist" you are very short on facts to back up your assertions.

MOD PARENT UP for truth (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20102985)

This article is crap, and Zonk has turned it into FUD.

Re:"Zonked" again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103047)

As if that wasn't laughable enough, the clown analyst being quoted is famous for being almost universally wrong on every single thing he ever predicts.

He is so bad that people on gaming forums immediately start making claims that the opposite of whatever his latest claim has got to be true because his track record for being wrong is so good.

I think we can safely say that the PS3 is definitely NOT the problem.

Re:"Zonked" again... (1, Insightful)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103169)

I think we can safely say that the PS3 is definitely NOT the problem.


Not to start a flame war (not like it hasn't already been started from TFA...) but I would imagine that it is indeed the PS3 causing problems.

Think about it. It's a modified version of the engine used in Table Tennis which was what? That's right, a 360 exclusive. They have to port it over to the PS3, not the other way around.

I could see the lack of a garunteed hard drive and the (comparitively) small size of a DVD-9 being an issue, but realistically these are not problems so big that they couldn't figure it out with a little noodle grease.

I can't claim to know what is causing the delay because I'm not developing the game. I will say, however, that between porting the engine to an ENTIRELY different beast (and like it or not, you cannot deny that the PS3 is one fuck of a powerful beast) and all the gameplay footage we have seen being rendered on a 360 and not a PS3, IMO it's the PS3 slowing things down.

I have been wrong in the past, of course. My gut tells me I'm not in this instance.

Feh, no matter, while I like exclusives soley for the reason that they are tethered to a console's specific hardware, I like the idea of multi-platform releases. In this way, the largest number of people have the opportunity to play video games, and at the end of the day that's all I care about...the platform that it is done on is of no consequence to me, really.

Re:"Zonked" again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103277)

Fucking pathetic fanboy. Your piece of shit 360 is gimping GTA for everyone.

But, hey, maybe we can all go back to floppies? Right? I'm sure all it would take is a bit of 'noodling' to get thing working right...

Re:"Zonked" again... (1)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103375)

Did you not even read the last paragraph in my post?

Is it just my imagination, or are the shills on here getting lazier?

Re:"Zonked" again... (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 6 years ago | (#20107267)

If by "lazier" you mean "post more bullshit posts with even less foundation in reality", yes. FFS, those idiots claim the PS3 is selling 400k units every month when NPD doesn't even show a quarter of that!

Re:"Zonked" again... (2, Interesting)

dopplex (242543) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103081)

I'm not sure it's accurate to describe the PS3 as the lead platform for the game.

After all, the demos were shown running off of 360s, I believe. (I seem to remember MS saying as much at some point during E3)

We've seen more evidence at this point to suggest that the 360 engine is at a demoable stage of development than we have for the PS3 engine - we've seen 360 demos, but we haven't seen PS3 demos.

Re:"Zonked" again... (2, Interesting)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103177)

Of course, the financial analyst also believes the PS3 version is a port of the 360 version, when in fact the PS3 has always been the lead platform for the game.

Has it? They've been demoing it on Xbox 360 this entire time, and it's using the same engine as their previous Xbox 360 game. Not that it really matters which platform is the primary development platform, but still, I've never heard that the PS3 is considered the "lead" platform by Rockstar.

Zonk's PS3 FUD Backfires (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103195)

I don't think anyone who is a game engineer is surprised by the delay. How exactly Rockstar is going to fit a game that streams an entire city at even a bare minimum level next gen graphics can possibly fit on the tiny 360 DVD drive and not be able to count on a standard harddrive like on the PS3...it has to be a painful project to work on knowing that you could be making a real next gen game on BluRay for the PS3 and tens of gigs of data on the PC.

Rockstar really should have split the project into PS3/PC with a high end next gen version of GTA and a much smaller less graphically demanding 360 version. They wouldn't be in the situation they are in right now where the PS3 and PC versions are getting delayed while they figure out what they hell they are going to do with the 360 disc size problem.

Honestly, trying to spin the GTA IV delay as anything other than a 360 problem is just silly. The problems with the 360 and a game like GTA is too great.

Re:Zonk's PS3 FUD Backfires (1, Insightful)

Sciros (986030) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103347)

Are you serious? The 360 has no problem running Oblivion. Squeezing what little more (less?) content they'd have for GTA IV on there would in no way significantly delay anything unless they are rubbish at managing their assets compared to other dev houses.

Given the engine GTA IV is being developed on is the same as a 360 exclusive Rockstar made, the issue is most likely on the PS3 side.

Re:Zonk's PS3 FUD Backfires (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103505)

Oblivion?

Are you really that clueless??? Oblivion is essentially the same geometry and textures repeated over and over again over a very large terrain. Are 360 fans really that stupid to try to keep using Oblivion as some sort of 'proof' about disc size?

You tried to do damage control for the gimped 360 and ended up looking like an idiot who knows nothing about game development. Rockstar themselves have repeated complained about not even knowing how they were going to fit GTA IV on the 360's tiny storage format.

Go away dummy.

Re:Zonk's PS3 FUD Backfires (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103679)

Yeah, Oblivion just reuses the same textures for their stuff, whereas with GTA IV they have over one thousand different textures just for brick buildings. That way you can really appreciate that the buildings are unique and tell their own stories. Every discoloration or missing chunk of brick is a reminder of days past, when life was simpler. Don't even get me started on the gigs upon gigs of pavement textures.

1000 different textures for Brick is f*ing insane. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104133)

If you find yourself using 1000 different textures for one type of building, it's time to investigate procedural texturing.

Re:1000 different textures for Brick is f*ing insa (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104437)

I was trying to point out that a city is mostly made out of the same basic materials and that if Rockstar isn't reusing tons of their textures like Oblivion did then they're just being ridiculous. I can't really see why the textures would be the reason they couldn't fit GTA IV on a DVD.

Re:1000 different textures for Brick is f*ing insa (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104607)

Yes, it just so happens that in the entire history of computer graphics and gaming that exactly at the point Microsoft becomes the first company ever to downgrade the amount of disc storage in one of their new systems that suddenly fans of that system start wondering why developers use more space each new generation.

Yes, dude, it's not Microsoft and their crappy little DVD. It's everyone else in the history of graphic and gaming that are wrong and to wasteful with their disc usage...

Re:1000 different textures for Brick is f*ing insa (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 6 years ago | (#20107303)

If you find yourself making posts like that, it's time to investigate sarcasm.

Re:Zonk's PS3 FUD Backfires (1)

Sciros (986030) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103771)

There's a lot more than that to the game, not to mention that clever re-use of textures can go a long way. It's a question of asset management, good recording/compression of voices, etc.

Sure, you can throw a ton of different, high-quality stuff into a game and say "omg we can't fit this onto a disk!" But, well, that "problem" has been tackled by game developers for decades (ever since the first-ever video game probably). You'd have to be clueless yourself to think that *that* is what's delaying the game, honestly.

A dev house complaining about not knowing how to do something doesn't mean it can't be done. Even Blizzard wasn't clever enough to avoid limiting characters to specific servers in WoW. Not that they complained about it, heh.

Re:"Zonked" again... (1)

ch0ad (1127549) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103327)

i have been fighting this fight on another forum earlier today... i wish people would stop taking speculation as fact just because it comes from a so called "game analyst". only r* know why, and until they say the reason for the delay was the ps3, everyone else can go fuck themselves :)

on another game blog another analyst claimed it was the 360's lack of space on a dvd... strange how zonk posted this article instead...

Re:"Zonked" again... (1)

Kelbear (870538) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103657)

I respect Michael Pachter's opinions most of the time. He's made some interesting commentary in the past, but has been drifting too far into blind speculation. To be fair, he's supposed to be an analyst, and he really only has to answer to his employer Wedbush Morgan. But when statements go up without reliable references to back them up, that's fast and loose reporting. Don't know if Michael Pachter should be held responsible for providing that information, or the poster for not corraborating the information.

But in either case, without any evidence, his speculation doesn't amount to much more than any other random gamer's speculation. And with that in mind:

GTAIV's delays were caused by Shigeru Miyamoto's ninja assasins conducting a night raid on Rockstar offices sparking a terrible and bloody war of attrition between the two companies in an underground struggle for supremacy over the hearts and minds of gamers everywhere. You heard it here first people.

Re:"Zonked" again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103831)

"Rockstar says they have challenges on both platforms"

Oh please! Is Rockstar going to say anything else? Do you really expect them to come right out and say Microsoft fucked us with the smaller than a normal DVD and lack of standard harddrive?

Considering the PS3 version is up to date with the 360 version right from Rockstar's own mouths...they ain't having any problem with the PS3 whatsoever.

The GTA 360 disc space problem isn't going to go away because fanboys don't want to face the reality f the situation.

Re:"Zonked" again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104059)

Why are you acting like Rockstar is off developing their game and all of a sudden Microsoft comes in and suddenly introduces the fact that they aren't going to have standard hard drives and are just going to use regular DVDs but some of the disc space will not be usable? Rockstar knew what they were getting in to. Nothing about the 360 platform caught them by suprise. Don't act like the 360 imposed itself on Rockstar, they could easily have made it an exclusive for the PS3.

Re:"Zonked" again... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104179)

That's total nonsense. They started working on the game long before the specs for either machine were announced, and no doubt were expecting increased storage as has been the case with EVERY GENERATION until Microsoft pulled this retarded bullshit. And even when the specs were announced, it was still a PS3 exclusive. It wasn't until it was clear that the PS3 would be released a year later that they changed their mind.

Re:"Zonked" again... (1)

DaveCBio (659840) | more than 6 years ago | (#20109297)

And you know the know the PS3 is the lead platform how? Do you have "insider" information?

Makes sense... (5, Interesting)

ch1a (168446) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102929)

This seems to feasible as all the press demos I've heard about have been on the 360.

Here's [gamespy.com] one I could find on short notice.

I'm not aware of Rockstar ever showing the press the game engine running on a PS3.

Anybody have examples of that?

Re:Makes sense... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104503)

So far the demos have been utter shit from everyone who has seen them - horrendous framerate problems, terrible geometry popin, and a variety of other problems.

That would indicate that Rockstar is really struggling to support the much weaker 360 hardware compared to the PS3 and PC. They are probably at the very limit of what they can stream from the 360's DVD drive and are still having huge popin problems.

There are increasing rumors that Microsoft is about to abandon the Core and let game companies require a harddrive. The timing of the GTA IV 360 problems from Rockstar and the change of policy from Microsoft probably are related with Rockstar telling Microsoft they can't get anything remotely next gen out the 360 right now.

Just look at the problems other developers are having with the 360's DVD drive with PGR4.
And look at how bad the graphics are on the big 360 first party games like Forza 2 and Halo 3.

One look at a game like Lair that absolutely destroys what we've seen from GTA IV so far makes it absurd to try to spin the GTA IV 360 problems as the PS3's fault.

Sony has their next gen shit together, Microsoft doesn't appear to even where the next gen race starts.

Re:Makes sense... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20107245)

Dude, wtf? Sony doesn't have their shit together - there still isn't a system seller game available for the PS3, and only when MGS4 ships next year will they have one.

By that stage Halo 3 will have sold millions of 360s, and Smash Bros, Prime and Mario Galaxy would've sold tens of millions of Wiis. Face it, Sony are screwed - they should've held off until they had a killer app.

This just in... (3, Interesting)

GoNINzo (32266) | more than 6 years ago | (#20102931)

Apparently, we take the opinions of analysts as news now? Especially ones that have been wrong in the past? This is the same guy who said [wordpress.com]:

"At the end of the day, we don't play games for social interaction ... We play games to escape." Microsoft's strategy is "absolutely flawed," he said.

I suppose he has never seen the game of World of Warcraft or any of the other games that allow you to play with your friends.

Seriously Zonk, try to have some news objectivity. I'm sure if you dug around, you could find some analyst on the Sony payroll to say how it was the xbox360's extra content causing the holdup.

lulz (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20102959)

Preformatted fanboy party lines:
Sony: The PS3 is so powerful and complex it takes longer to develop for it!
Non-Sony: The PS3 is so crappy they're having trouble developing for it!

Saved you all some time there.

Hilarious Zonk FUD! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103017)

Let's see, you have:

PS3
25/50 gig BluRay drive standard
20/60/80 gig harddrive standard

360
3.5/7 gig last gen DVD drive
No standard harddrive

Rockstar was on record before the 360 was revealed praying not to have to deal with DVD all over again. Microsoft is forcing them to deal with storage space that is 1 gig smaller than a normal DVD.

Rockstar is on record multiple times talking about the 'challenges'(aka development nightmare) of trying to fit a next gen free roaming game onto a smaller than last gen disc.

Gee, wonder what the hell could be going wrong with a next gen version of GTA on the 360???

Re:Hilarious Zonk FUD! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103471)

It is unfortunate that the 360 does not have HD-DVD as a standard feature. However, even though Microsoft has said that they will forbid it, I'm sure that as the external HD-DVD drive becomes more popular, Microsoft will cave to developers and let them put games on HD-DVDs.

Probably there will need to be a normal DVD to load the game code, but all of the textures/images/sounds/maps/etc. could be stored on an HD-DVD. (I don't think that the HD-DVD is able to load executable code, because that's not what it was intended for.)

Re:Hilarious Zonk FUD! (2, Interesting)

ironwill96 (736883) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103997)

If you're going to troll every games post over the last few days, at least log in so we can flame you properly.

See similar posts here [slashdot.org], here [slashdot.org], and here [slashdot.org].

I think we've all got the point that you're really mad about Microsoft not using a larger optical disc format. Your soap box has been stood upon, you don't need to pick it up and bludgeon us to death with your daily rant.

Thanks!

Re:Hilarious Zonk FUD! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104263)

It's funny if you picture the Xbox fanboy jumping up and down covering his ears screaming "lalalalalalallaalala!!! I'm not listening!!!!"

Direct your anger towards the idiots who designed the 360 hardware - noisy, defective, and crappy disc format. It is funny, though, to think back to before the 360 launched. It was supposed to be the system where Microsoft 'got it right' after the 5 billion dollar Xbox marketplace flop.

Re:Hilarious Zonk FUD! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104149)

The PS3 has effectively half the usable memory of the XBOX 360 (you can only put graphics data in half of the memory map).
The bluray drive is slower to get data off than the 360's DVD drive.

Just exactly what is the advantage of it? More space? Exactly who's going to come up with the content to fill that disk? And what are you going to do with it if you can't fit it in memory?

Re:Hilarious Zonk FUD! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20107175)

The PS3 has effectively half the usable memory of the XBOX 360 (you can only put graphics data in half of the memory map).


No, you can put graphics data in main RAM. The GPU has 2 memory buses, just for this, so it's even efficient.

Re:Hilarious Zonk FUD! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104407)

Not this bullshit again. The following is important and it needs to be said loud and clear:

The Xbox 360 uses a standard 12X DVD-ROM drive, which supports disks up to 9GB in size.

Anyone claiming otherwise needs to prove otherwise. I realize I've never bothered substantiating my claim either, but here we go [teamxbox.com] - the technical specifications for the Xbox 360. Note that the DVD drive is a standard 12X dual-layer DVD-ROM drive.

Not to mention that Rockstar was repeatedly stated that the delays for GTA IV are caused by the insane difficulty in developing for the PS3. There are plenty of other comments in this story that link to that fact, so just check them out.

Re:Hilarious Zonk FUD! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104833)

Hey dummy, your attempt at spouting bullshit about the PS3 isn't going to go over too well when everyone but you, apparently, knows that the 360s has only around 7 GBs of usable space for developers with over a GB used for DRM.

Welcome to two years ago.

Re:Hilarious Zonk FUD! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104993)

Two years ago is before the Xbox 360 was even released. Yes, there are a whole lot of articles from two years ago claiming that the Xbox 360 only supports 7GB of usable space.

Strangely, none of the final spec sheets for the Xbox 360 specs mention this. It's almost like it was a strange rumor based on pre-release information that never happened in the final version...

Unless you can provide some proof otherwise. But you can't, can you, or you would have, right?

"Everyone" who knows this seems to trace it back to - well, nowhere. Personally, I think someone made a typo somewhere, and the anti-Microsoft crowd latched onto this typo as a crusade since they have no valid reasons to hate the Xbox 360.

Re:Hilarious Zonk FUD! (4, Insightful)

toolie (22684) | more than 6 years ago | (#20104951)

PS3
25/50 gig BluRay drive standard
20/60/80 gig harddrive standard

360
3.5/7 gig last gen DVD drive
No standard harddrive
You forgot one:

PS3
No demo of GTA 4 ever shown in public, or private that we are aware of.

360
Demo shown at E3 using the engine developed on the 360.

Re:Hilarious Zonk FUD! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20106433)

>No demo of GTA 4 ever shown in public, or private that we are aware of.

Private to who? Sony? Well guess what you are incorrect.

Re:Hilarious Zonk FUD! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20110061)

Haha look at the little Sorry PS3 fanboy attempt damage control! Choke on crow, bitch!

Okay, for the unaware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20103451)

It ALWAYS takes people -> companies -> game companies a while to figure out the true capabilities of something -> technology -> the latest console.

The PS2 is offcourse the most relevant example with games being released RIGHT NOW that push the system to new limits, several years after its launch. I am currently playing Tomb Raider Anniversary (On the PC offcourse, I am civilized after all) and while on the one hand its PS2 inheritance is painfully obvious in the way its seperates its levels/areas into chunks to compensate for a console typical pathetic memory, it is also bloody obvious that this game pulls of much more then previous tomb raider versions on the PS2 were capable off. Well I presume at least, not actually having played the PS2 version of any tomb raider game, remember, I am civilized.

So the PS2 still gets AAA releases, despite being a well known bitch to code for. The X-box, claimed to be a PC inside (a really crap PC you would donate to your kids because you don't really love them but they keep the wife from wanting to buy a dog), was a lot easier to code for. I use past term because IT doesn't seem to be getting nearly as many AAA release now its succesor has launched.

For those a bit too young, what was the first PC game with FULL speech and when was it launched? No, your wrong.

It pretty much doesn't matter what you answered because you most likely are barking up the wrong tree completly and are in the wrong decade.

One of the first games I played with FULL SPEECH was a air-traffic coordinator game (tracon) which played on a 286 or earlier and came on a floppy and had all the pilot-tower talk VOICED.

yeah, that ain't that hard, that is what soundcards do, just put a lot of MP3's on there. Eh, no. No soundcard, no MP3. Just 1 floppy, no harddrive.

It also did something many modern games ain't even capable off, different pilots used slight variations in tone to make them sound different.

What was simply the case that having been presented with an existing tech for a long time the developers had become fully used to the tech and had pushed it far beyond its original capabilities.

Think back to the first tomb raider that used pre-recorded audio (vs MIDI) stored as ordinary music tracks on the game cd, played by your pc (even the voice bits were tracks) and how the current tomb raider games do it.

The PS3 is a bitch to program for, but it will be programmed for and this might mean that it will become more and more capable. The X-box was easy, and died quickly. The PS2 was a bitch and is still kicking.

Offcourse, history is also full of consoles everyone thought had hidden potential that died anyway.

But playing Tomb Raider Anniversary I am pretty sure that however much of a bitch the PS3 might be, the challenge to fit it all on the 360's DVD, is just as hard, that is not even to mention that the 360 core does not have a HD.

But hey, ultimately computer games are still part of IT. If software started shipping on time and on budget were would we be? Why people might just start to see us as yet an other industry and actuall expects us to put up warranties. This software will run for 10 years without fail or we will fix and pay any damages. Nothing unsuals on a building but a piece of software? HA!

hmmmm (1)

TB (7206) | more than 6 years ago | (#20103715)

If I was making a game of the size and complexity of GTA4, I would at least get some experience on the platforms first, and even if I didnt... id get first party devs in to help. The only one to blame for delays is Rockstars stupidity.

Yeah but what about that other thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20104709)

Infighting aside, the real issue here is Rockstar has uncharacteristically overpromised and underdelivered with GTA IV.

Lately there has been anxiety in the gaming community over Rockstar management's ability to run the company effectively, mostly because of personnel losses. Events like this one, in which Rockstar is not only unable to deliver a crucial product on time, but also bungles the task of keeping the gaming public informed by not announcing the delay until the last minute, do not shine an encouraging light on the skills of the company's current management team. Coming on the heels of the Manhunt 2 fiasco, the current situation gives little cause for optimism.

Here's hoping Rockstar will get their act together by March (Nowhere to go but up, I guess). The gaming public can be very forgiving as long as decent product is delivered.

Not to worry, GTA: Emerald City is for the Wii 1st (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 6 years ago | (#20106467)

And all you PS3 1users can just wait until it's released.

But it will release on xBox360 at the same time as the Wii, so it's not like you'll have long to wait to basejump off of the Space Needle onto the Grey's Anatomy hospital and jump on a skateboard at the new (being built right now) skateboard park that Bill G tried to kill.

Due to the large number of bike paths and pedestrian corridors, there will be a lot more carnage, of course.

Re:Not to worry, GTA: Emerald City is for the Wii (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20108439)

Grey's Anatomy hospital is more or less KOMO TV 4. Although for cool you can't beat channels 5 and 6, KING and KONG respectively.

This is Rockstar's first big game. (2, Insightful)

LKM (227954) | more than 6 years ago | (#20107219)

It's easy to forget that R* has never developed a game the size of GTA III or GTA IV from scratch. They used Renderware for their previous "big" GTAs. GTA IV is the first "modern" GTA to be developed from scratch. Sure, they used an early version of the engine in Table Tennis, but something like GTA IV is in an entirely differen league.

My guess is that they simply underestimated what it would take to polish a game like GTA IV to a shippable version.

Google... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20109191)

google: 'Michael Pachter'
seems to be an analyst that wants to get his name up in lights
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  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
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