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Linux Foundation Calls for 'Respect for Microsoft'

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the so-what-macos-is-chopped-liver dept.

486

kripkenstein writes "Jim Zemlin (executive director for the Linux Foundation) gave a talk at LinuxWorld saying that the open source community should stop poking fun at Microsoft. From the VNU article: 'Open source vendors have to recognize that Windows is here to stay and that together with Microsoft it will form a duopoly in the market for operating systems. This also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it. "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"

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I thought OS X Linux (2, Informative)

LokiSnake (795582) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196313)

Duopoly? Microsoft and Linux? I thought OSX has more market share than Linux does. Well, okay, at least in the desktop market.

Re:I thought OS X Linux (4, Insightful)

Carthag (643047) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196395)

Nah the summary states that Microsoft and Windows will form a duopoly. Sounds about right. :(

Re:I thought OS X Linux (2, Insightful)

Henriok (6762) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196463)

Yeah. I read it on the Internet so it must be true!

Re:I thought OS X Linux (1, Funny)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196551)

Open source vendors have to recognize that Windows is here to stay and that together with Microsoft it will form a duopoly in the market for operating systems. This also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it.

How can I put this eloquently...

Fuck off, Uncle Tom.

Re:I thought OS X Linux (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196679)

How can I put this ineloquently?

YUO FAIL IT

Re:I thought OS X Linux (1)

h4rm0ny (722443) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196757)


Nicely used reference.

Uh-huh. (5, Insightful)

brennanw (5761) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196315)

So he's essentially saying I should respect Microsoft for thinking up all the dirty tricks it used to get it's monopoly in the first place. ... I am not convinced.

Re:Uh-huh. (5, Insightful)

mister_woods (949290) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196393)

Why should I have any respect for an organisation that's been convicted of anti-competitive practices on 2 continents? Microsoft is a bunch of crooks selling a third-rate products. Respect has to earned, not expected.

Re:Uh-huh. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196685)

Maybe you can start by asking yourself who allows a business to develop into a monopoly at first place, you might get some clues (hint: both US/EU do). That both US/EU waited for MS to become a monopoly shoudl tell you something.

Re:Uh-huh. (3, Insightful)

an.echte.trilingue (1063180) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196729)

Because the PHBs do. You don't have to advocate it, just accept it and be willing to work with it when necessary. Then, when the time comes to advocate something else to your PHB, s/he will listen to you.

I got my boss to switch to open source for a lot of things that way.

Not just that. (4, Insightful)

khasim (1285) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196431)

You should also respect them for publicly claiming that Linux "violates" X patents owned by Microsoft.

And that anyone using Linux (unless specially licensed) owes Microsoft some money.

And for Microsoft's continuing attempts to kill / marginalize the ODF standard.

Yes, Microsoft deserves your respect and not your disgust. So says an executive from a company that has purchased a "partnership" with Microsoft.

Re:Not just that. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196483)

When it comes down to it, I don't really think I disrespect Microsoft. I might dislike Microsoft...

Re:Uh-huh. (1)

FyRE666 (263011) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196447)

"There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"

Yeah, and we should also give respect to the mafia for fending off the competition with their protection rackets. Let's also give respect to George Bush for fending off that nasty constitution...

Re:Uh-huh. (2, Insightful)

donpeyote (982729) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196659)

really why dont everyone stops this nonsense about microsoft, they are good and they know what they are doing. Period. Everything else is just fundamentalism.

Indistinguishable from sarcasm (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196665)

"There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"


Other things Microsoft got right about Windows; they now have a patented sudo work-a-like. Will their innovation never cease?

Re:Uh-huh. (1)

Nikker (749551) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196693)

Looks like Billy boy has gotten someone elses pants ;)

I think I'll wait until they ... ahem wait for it.... actually do something to imress me!

That is all..

okay (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196323)

like i have respect for SCO

Respect? For M$? (2, Informative)

bheer (633842) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196325)

What is this, Hug a Grizzly Bear Week? Be Nice to the Sharks Month? This man Zemlin is obviously either a shill or a sad deluded man who needs to be shipped off to the re-education camps as soon as possible!

Re:Respect? For M$? (1)

o'reor (581921) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196379)

"Hug a Grizzly Bear Week"

I like that one. Really. ;-)

Re:Respect? For M$? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196597)

Didn't we already have an april fool's this year?

What the hell is the Linux Foundation? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196327)

And why do they matter? Perhaps if Microsoft stopped threatening the use of patents, there could be some peace?

So MS does marketting, Linux does software? (4, Insightful)

IBBoard (1128019) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196329)

"There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.


So what he's saying is that Linux excels at being good software, while Microsoft only excel at marketing practices? Sounds like a double-edged compliment to Microsoft to me!

Re:So MS does marketting, Linux does software? (1)

lordtoran (1063300) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196617)

That smart guy also said Microsoft excels at being a duopoly with Windows! Erm ... ok, whatever that means.

Re:So MS does marketting, Linux does software? (1)

DaedalusHKX (660194) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196713)

It means that Microsoft software, plus the Windows operating system in general are a duopoly, their stuff, on their OS, or else. Period.

He's got a point, and soon after I will be removing my last "windows" install that matters. My research laptop will go from dual boot windows to single boot linux. Hell Linux has had less issues on it (HP Pav Dv5k).

It will be preference. Access and control over your own machine, or surrender it all to groupthink and continue to pay for microsoft's legal expenses. I say screw them and screw their shills and do whatever you want because you want to, not because some guy who owns stock in Microsoft says so.

Re:So MS does marketting, Linux does software? (1)

Bazman (4849) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196619)

I'm with Bill Hicks on this:

"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself. No, no, no it's just a little thought. I'm just trying to plant seeds. Maybe one day, they'll take root - I don't know. You try, you do what you can. Kill yourself. Seriously though, if you are, do. Aaah, no really, there's no rationalisation for what you do and you are Satan's little helpers, Okay - kill yourself - seriously. You are the ruiner of all things good, seriously. No this is not a joke, you're going, "there's going to be a joke coming," there's no fucking joke coming. You are Satan's spawn filling the world with bile and garbage."

Don't mod this Funny - there's no joke coming. Really. http://sazmatazz.users.btopenworld.com/ [btopenworld.com] for the moreness.

Re:So MS does marketting, Linux does software? (2, Informative)

Bombula (670389) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196747)

Unfortunately, marketing is a necessary evil. And not just in business. You have to sell yourself, you have to sell your merits, you have to promote and promulgate your ideas and your beliefs and your values, whether your a person or a business or any other kind of organization or institution.

But if by marketing you just mean the crap that's on TV intermixed with the shows, well, fair enough.

Re:So MS does marketting, Linux does software? (1)

SgtKremlin (1141307) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196719)

There is also a few things Microsoft does pretty disastrously, like... memory allocation, respecting privacy, respecting the user's choice in using other software in adjunct, providing the ability to use old software/hardware concurrently with new microsoft products...

Wait, what? (1, Insightful)

Virak (897071) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196335)

I'm supposed to respect them because they're bigger than everyone else and thus can put more money into marketing and abuse their monopoly to crush competitors with underhanded tactics? How about they stop making shitty software and play nice with everyone else? Maybe I'd respect them then, but I'll certainly not respect them for what they do now.

Re:Wait, what? (1)

vvulfe (156725) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196405)

"To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy." -- Sun Tzu

I've been saying this forever. (3, Insightful)

DaedalusHKX (660194) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196821)

Linux geeks should just treat Microsoft the way the Chinese government treats the US Government... a necessary enemy. Only there as a stepping stone to sovereignty or self sufficiency. Let them tout themselves, let them think they're winning, and then, when the chips are down, yank the last card from their house of cards... and watch them fall.

Sun Tzu was right though, you can either wean yourself off the enemy and create your own destiny, or you can destroy Darth Vader and take his place at the Emperor's side. Either you choose a side, or you don't play their game. Most Linux geeks have chosen a side, and will eventually find themselves in Darth Vader's shoes. It is inevitable when one takes the path of confrontation. One monster must be created to oppose the existing one, unless the wise man fends off the monster and lets it die of its own irrelevance.

Re:Wait, what? (1)

MPAB (1074440) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196427)

Were they born bigger than everyone else?

Re:Wait, what? (3, Insightful)

garcia (6573) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196453)

How about they stop making shitty software and play nice with everyone else?

Have you ever used XP or 2000? It's not "shitty". It's certainly not the best thing ever, but it sure as fuck beats using Linux for a desktop machine. Please note that I ran Linux as my only OS from 1997 through 2002 and then went back and haven't returned.

Vista was a mistake (much like 3.11 or ME) but they have made some OSs that are quite solid, work just fine for the majority of users, and are deployed (tactics or not) on 100s of millions of computers.

I don't think Microsoft should be hailed for their business practices but they certainly haven't always made "shitty" software.

Re:Wait, what? (3, Insightful)

cmacb (547347) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196621)

Have you ever used XP or 2000? It's not "shitty". It's certainly not the best thing ever, but it sure as fuck beats using Linux for a desktop machine. Please note that I ran Linux as my only OS from 1997 through 2002 and then went back and haven't returned.


It may not be shitty in an absolute sense, but given the amount of money and time that have been spent on it, shitty it still is. If our industry was composed of several large operating system companies rather than one behemoth and a dozen hanging on by their fingernails we would be much much better off. Microsoft didn't get where they are primarily by the strength of their technology offerings but by other less ethical means. Bait and switch, kickbacks, embrace and extinguish, buyout and extinguish and numerous similar gimmickry do more to describe the company than any feature set, or heaven forbid "innovation" that they are responsible for. They are where they are for little other reason than the federal government (followed by the states) eventually standardized on their products forcing a chain reaction of most companies to do likewise.

If they made any other product than software (which still possesses a mysterious legal immunity) they would have been sued out of business by now.

Given the amount of time and money they have had to spend on it, it would be a miracle if they hadn't achieve some degree of stability by now, as it is, it is a miracle that they have achieved as little as they have.

Glad you are enjoying your Microsoft experience again. I switched to Linux in the late 90's too and have seen no reason to go back. Linux is marginally harder to install, but the "thrill" of re-installing operating systems wore off for me while I was still a Windows user. Maybe you actually look forward to each "new" release.

Re:Wait, what? (1)

Virak (897071) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196633)

Have you ever used XP or 2000? It's not "shitty".
I've used both 2000 and XP. I still wince whenever I have to use someone else's computer and they use Windows, because I can't do even half of the stuff I can on a *nix box.

it sure as fuck beats using Linux for a desktop machine.
It doesn't even come close to Linux for anything.

Please note that I ran Linux as my only OS from 1997 through 2002 and then went back and haven't returned.
Please note that I dual-booted Linux since 2001 and have been using it exclusively with no problems for the last few years, and I'll never return.

they have made some OSs that ... work just fine for the majority of users
If by "work just fine" you mean "are riddled with massive security holes through which countless malware comes" then yes, they do.

I don't think Microsoft should be hailed for their business practices but they certainly haven't always made "shitty" software.
No, they've been making shitty software since approximately forever. Sure, not all of their software has been shitty, but the vast majority has and continues to be.

Re:Wait, what? (3, Insightful)

robgig1088 (1043362) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196769)

Please note that I ran Linux as my only OS from 1997 through 2002

Linux as my only OS from 1997 through 2002

1997 through 2002
Perhaps the reason you think that is because you used Linux for the last time 5 years ago. Want to know why theres so many Linux users today (myself included)? Because it's now better than Windows.

Re:Wait, what? (1)

syntaxglitch (889367) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196783)

Have you ever used XP or 2000? It's not "shitty". It's certainly not the best thing ever, but it sure as fuck beats using Linux for a desktop machine. Please note that I ran Linux as my only OS from 1997 through 2002 and then went back and haven't returned.

Myself, I use XP at my day job and Linux at home. The home computer has been a Linux desktop for the last 2-3 years. Overall I find Linux to be a more pleasant experience for my purposes; it's less prone to mystery errors, the documentation is better, and the system is often more responsive even on slower hardware than my work machine.

That's not to say that XP isn't a fine, decent piece of software, but it hardly blows Linux out of the water. It may be better depending on what you want to use the machine for, but it's not a clear victory. I use VS.NET at my day job also, and it's hardly crap software either. Even the much-maligned IE won the browser wars on its own merits, back in the day.

The problem I have with Microsoft is not that their software sucks, it's that they consistently provide products that are merely acceptable, only barely beating out equivalent open-source software, and any "innovation" usually has more to do with copying other people than breaking new ground. They do okay, but they really ought to be capable of doing better than just "good enough". Especially if you look at the amazing stuff that comes out of Microsoft Research, then compare it to the "copy Apple's ideas, slowly and at much greater expense" that is Vista. They're clearly capable of making better software--just look at the huge improvement that IE7 is over IE6, but why on earth did it take them so long?

I just don't get it. How do you take a company that employs huge numbers of very smart people, has ungodly amounts of money, dominates multiple markets, and then manage to produce only mediocre software, very slowly and at great expense? What are they doing all day in there?

How much MONEY have they sunk into it? (3, Insightful)

khasim (1285) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196825)

Have you ever used XP or 2000? It's not "shitty".

Yes they are. Here's why:

#1. The registry. It's too fucking brittle AND it is constantly open by Windows AND it is not automatically replicated X times over Y days so you can recover when it does break. And it will, eventually, break.

#2. Which is why Microsoft shops advocate the "Wipe & Reload" method of "support". It broke, don't spend time trying to fix it. Fixing it is not an option. Wipe it and reload the "base image" that your shop uses. Sure it will take 30 - 60 minutes, but even if you have to do that for a dozen machines a week, it's still faster than finding the real problems.

#3. Viruses, trojans & worms. At least with Linux I can boot from a "Live CD" and chroot the local hard drive and check it / edit it to remove problems. WITHOUT losing all the data that the user has saved to it (see #2 above).

#4. No packaging system (see Debian & Ubuntu). And don't start going on about how you can make a "package" in Windows. That just shows you don't know what you're talking about. In Windows ANY app can replace ANY file when you install it. Under a real package management system, each file is owned by one AND ONLY ONE package. That file is NOT replaced unless you upgrade/remove the package that owns it. (or choose "force" and know that you're probably fucking up your system)

Some of the end-users prefer Windows. That's fine. It's personal choice. But it's still a "shitty" operating system based upon "shitty" decisions.

Re:Wait, what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196459)

A lot of their software isn't "shitty" these days. Take .NET. As a common runtime, it's far better than Java. Sun is trying to make the Java platform less Java language-specific, with the work on JRuby and Groovy. But .NET was designed from the bottom-up to support more than one language. Java just can't compete with that. And the open source efforts, especially Parrot, have floundered.

Parrot had so much potential, but became such a joke. One of the big problems was the acronym hell they created. It's damn near impossible for most hobbyist developers to make any sort of a contribution, as it takes forever just to understand all the acronyms they've dreamt up. Beyond that, they went and kept changing their intermediate languages and representations. It's such a moving target that anything you write for it now will be outdated in two or three months. So why even bother?

Re:Wait, what? (4, Insightful)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196511)

Diplomacy is saying "nice doggie" while you look for a bigger stick.

Re:Wait, what? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196591)

When I was just a computer geek, I thought this way, too. How dare they peddle this crap? Once I got out into the real world, though, things are different. Computers are important, but they're not everything. Windows sucks -- oh boo hoo.

The "Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation" gives hundreds of millions (billions?) of dollars every year worldwide for health, education, and poverty. Where'd the money come from? Windows licenses, of course. Assuming Bill follows through with his promise to donate the vast majority of his fortune (which I believe), then, Microsoft is a pretty interesting company.

They channel massive amounts of money from consumers who don't know much about computers, into improving the lives of countless people around the world.

Let's face it: if you can afford a computer, you're not *that* bad off. He's simply adding a voluntary $100-or-so tax to every PC, and helping to push some of that to people who need it more than you.

It's a crap operating system, but building a great system takes a lot more work. If he spent the time and money to make it great, the margins would be lower, and he might have gotten eaten by Apple or NeXT or Be. So while I don't like Windows (and don't use it, at work or at home), and I don't claim that Bill started out with this plan, I do respect the work that he's doing now.

Please, everybody, keep buying Windows licenses. Or even better, install Linux, and donate the price of a Windows license directly to your favorite charity. Because in the big picture, if you own the computer you're reading this on, you're one of the richest people in the world.

Active Directory (0, Troll)

MicrosoftElitist (1138973) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196673)

You are supposed to respect them because at a minimum they can offer an intuitive directory service e.g. Active Directory. Something the open source community can't even come close to. You can go take a shower now stinky open source zealot. Brush your teeth while you are at it. Then we can talk about how all of the office applications work together seamlessly. People who want their business software to scale as their business grows use Microsoft applications. People who want to remain a mom and pop shop use Open Office, Evolution etc.

Re:Active Directory (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196701)

Wow, trolls these days just aren't what they used to be.

Microsoft is so... 1998 (2, Insightful)

RunFatBoy.net (960072) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196351)

Yeah, acknowledging MS's strengths is a lot like going to your grandparents 50th wedding anniversary; you're thankful for the legacy that they've left behind but at 70 years old and playing Friday night bingo, they're not quite relevant in the same way they use to be.

MS has lost it's way ( as documented in Joel's "How Microsoft Lost the API War" ) and with applications moving more towards the web as a platform, things don't look to improve.

Jim
RunFatBoy ( http://www.runfatboy.net/ [runfatboy.net] ) - Exercise for the rest of us.

Old Idea, Some Quotes to Reinforce (4, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196357)

Orson Scott Card

I am your enemy, the first one you've ever had who was smarter than you. There is no teacher but the enemy. No one but the enemy will ever tell you what the enemy is going to do. No one but the enemy will ever teach you how to destroy and conquer. Only the enemy shows you where you are weak. Only the enemy tells you when he is strong. And the rules of the game are what you can do to him and what you can stop him from doing to you. I am your enemy from now on. From now on, I am your teacher. - Ender's Game

In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them.... I destroy them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don't exist. - Ender's Game
And similar to that is his quote on war:

You can't defeat a powerful enemy unless you understand him completely, and you can't understand him unless you know the desires of his heart, and you can't know the desires of his heart until you truly love him.

Hiding from your enemy is the same as letting him win. - Seventh Son
Quotes from Sun Tzu

To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.

Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time.
I think it's clear that you must respect your enemy to even compete against them. If you don't respect that Microsoft has a great marketing, legal & business development department, you aren't going to get far. Know your enemy, understand them, respect them--only then can you become greater than them.

Poking fun at them is only a sign of overconfidence as Luke once said to Darth Vadar & Emperor Palpatine

Your overconfidence is your weakness.

Re:Old Idea, Some Quotes to Reinforce (2, Insightful)

Torodung (31985) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196477)

You know, I was with you until you quoted "Luke Skywalker..." Then I couldn't stop giggling.

Should I get you a copy of Bartlett's for your birthday? I mean there's got to be someone else who said "pride goeth before a fall," right? ;^)

--
Toro

Re:Old Idea, Some Quotes to Reinforce (2, Funny)

amightywind (691887) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196639)

High minded thinking indeed. But I'm more suited to hurl insults at M$ from the safety of my Gentoo machine in my mother's basement.

Re:Old Idea, Some Quotes to Reinforce (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196661)

Bravo! Quotes from such "luminaries" as a creator of wacked-out visions of vile dog-eat-dog distopias, which the said author fondly dreams of bringing to real life under the name of "Libertarianism", then from a bloodthirsty cretin, whose prime occupation was beheading defensless concubines as "demonstrations" for petty Chinese "monarchs", when not busy overseeing rape and pillage of peasants by bands of thugs and whose main "achievment" was the fact that unlike most of his contemporaries he could use a brush to put his idiocy to parchment, crowned by a quote from a fictional character in a fantasy entertainment flick. All we can do is to shake in our collective boots from the onslaught of such torrent of wisdom .... not.

Re:Old Idea, Some Quotes to Reinforce (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196827)

You assume the whole point of the FOSS community is to compete with MS, seems like your the one thats overconfident is this case.

Now, if you dont mind, i must return to laughing at all those still running AV scanners daily on their MS products. hehehehehehheh

Sarcasm (4, Insightful)

ZigiSamblak (745960) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196375)

This also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it. "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"

Saying all Microsoft has ever done well is marketing and fending off competition is setting an example for not ridiculing them? I believe he's just being sarcastic.

Re:Sarcasm (1)

ralphdaugherty (225648) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196543)


      Doesn't Zemlin have any idea how Microsoft got its good track record fending off the competition?

  rd

Re:Sarcasm (1)

kripkenstein (913150) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196603)

Yeah, that did read like humor to me as well.

In addition, when he said Microsoft was 'good' at fending off the competition, I thought he was making a subtle understatement joke - because saying Microsoft is 'good' at fending off the competition is about like saying Al Capone was 'good' at running a business.

Re:Sarcasm (1)

Nossie (753694) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196759)

my opinion of this guy is one word... shill

but one thing I will say is that GNU/Linux could really do with some decent marketing.

you could drop the GNU for a start /hides

Before I get modded down, I respect RMS and his work on the software he did over the last 20 years or so but that doesnt give him any excuse to try and put some childish in joke abrv into a software title. I don't want to call Linux the full OS, but that doesn't mean I can stand the alternative.

Put GNU/linux and Madriva in the same boat and sink it.

Respect (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196381)

We don't respect someone because someone else asked us to.

Respect has to be earned, not bought nor dictated nor "suggested".

The difference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196387)

Linux is a pillar of civilization. Windows is just some OS that you can buy.

Is this a joke? (1, Troll)

toby (759) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196389)

Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition

Dear Mr Zemlin,

You don't have to market a product that sits at 95%+ market share.

All you have to do is continue the dirty tricks (legal and otherwise) that got it there, and keep it there. I don't respect criminals, thugs and liars, and I think you should resign for suggesting that the open source community should do so.

Yours sincerely

Re:Is this a joke? (1)

Joebert (946227) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196567)

Takes one to know one. :)

No thanks (4, Insightful)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196407)

Microsoft operates in the real world - in the real world I only give respect to those who have earned my respect, or who have it by default and have done nothing to lost it; Microsoft fits neither of these to me.

Some things Windows does pretty well (1, Funny)

Sergeant Pepper (1098225) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196419)

Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.

Too bad that's the only thing!

Marketing Strategy (4, Interesting)

Blobule (913778) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196429)

Microsoft's marketing strategy is actually quite simple. It follows the triple E system. Embrace, Extend, Exterminate. It also has another strategy is the triple B system. Buy Out, Bloat Up, and Bilk.

Server & desktop - different levels of ridicul (1)

pyite69 (463042) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196457)

I have given up ridiculing people who run Windows on their workstations, basically along the lines of what this guy says. However, it is completely ridiculous to ever run Windows on a server.

Re:Server & desktop - different levels of ridi (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196723)

"However, it is completely ridiculous to ever run Windows on a server." - by pyite69 (463042) on Saturday August 11, @01:37PM (#20196457)

http://www.microsoft.com/sql/bigdata/default.mspx [microsoft.com]

There are HOW MANY COMPANIES running Microsoft Windows (of modern NT-based varieties today (2000/XP/Server 2003/VISTA) + SQLServer 2003 on that page, & doing so successfully mind you, that will tend to disagree with you?

Quite a lot!

Guys, I KNOW you guys "love your LINUX" here @ /., but - don't underestimate Windows used in servers, OR for security either!

Windows of modern builds based on NT (2000/XP/Server2003/VISTA)? They're VERY securable as well, above & beyond their default configuration "out-of-the-box/oem stock"...

Really easily as well, via 12 basic simple steps anyone can use (inclusive of Windows admins, & at the DESKTOP CLIENT NODE LEVELS as well as on the server), per this guide:

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?s=731 6c98c36e75835f964972f246c3eaf&p=375355#post375355 [techpowerup.com]

SCORE ON THE MULTIPLATFORM CIS TOOL (by the CENTER FOR INTERNET SECURITY) PHOTO:

http://img.techpowerup.org/070618/APK14SecurityPoi ntsCISToolResult84735.jpg [techpowerup.org]

This multiplatform test runs on SOLARIS, BSD variants (sorry, no OpenBSD or MacOS X versions are available yet, but for example: FreeBSD has a version), Linux, & yes, Windows & has been noted by SANS & other notables/respectable sources, such as these:

COMPUTERWORLD:

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?com mand=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9018362&intsrc=hm_ list [computerworld.com]

SANS: CIS to Release Windows Configuration Assessment Tool (May 1, 2007)

http://www.sans.org/newsletters/newsbites/newsbite s.php?vol=9&issue=36#sID302 [sans.org]

(That's there for folks that have tried to "object to this program" because they did not know who "THE CENTER FOR INTERNET SECURITY" is, & attempted to say this program is "rogueware" etc. such as in the URL below):

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=264303&thresho ld=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=20176577#20185 057 [slashdot.org]

The sad part is this - I have posted the challenge to take this test (especially from SeLINUX bearing distros & users of them, & BSD variant users like FreeBSD) here @ /., around 25 times now - NO TAKERS, but plenty of evaders & spinmasters trying to avoid taking it, for b.s. reasons (saying in others, vs. the URL above's reason, that "there is no registry in LINUX"... & so what? There are other areas in the *NIX family tree that DO (such as the /etc & its subnodes)).

APK

P.S.=> And, don't get me wrong: I like Linux, especially on KUbuntu 7.1, because I LIKE KDE!

(AND, with SeLinux in place + configured on it ontop of the usual methods for helping to secure Linux (chmod/chroot/chown legwork + IPTables (perhaps Packet Filtering built into Linux as well via IPChains oldschool methods (but they BOTH offer things over one another), & even NetConfig to create a "NAT" system too - plus more things I am learning about for security in LINUX that are pretty neat)!

I did that CIS Tool multiplatform test in the URL above for Windows, & am seeking folks that will install it & post their scores on it, from a *NIX environs (preferably SeLinux kernel addon hooks for MAC & BSD variants that this test runs on (this is a stickler - what astounds me in a way, is the same mistake that "killed a unified UNIX", seem to happen on various modern *NIX's too: One LINUX variant, say UBUNTU can run a program, SuSe cannot OR FreeBSD can run this program, OpenBSD & MacOS X cannot, EVEN THOUGH THEY CAME FROM THE SAME BASECODE TREE!)

Someone in this thread wrote "Linux is a pillar of civilization"...

Well, I don't know about THAT, but it might be considered that somewhat, considering it is used so much online AS A SERVER (due to free cost of it most likely, one has to consider that, vs. a paid for OS like Windows), & the fact that folks donate their free time & WORK to making it better (& even companies like Oracle + IBM do as well in code contributed)... making it, imo @ least, a sort of "socio-technological marvel/phenomenon" that proves people can AND DO, good things for free...

Device driver support's gotte better, but it's still behind Windows though (this is where the money is for folks producing commercial hardwares, looking for "mass market" penetration & sales, & WHY Windows wins on this account)...

Software (end user stuff) is good nowadays, but it's still behind the FIRMLY ENTRENCHED Windows on the corporate AND home user desktops out there (tough to beat)...apk

LoL (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196485)

Windows is crap, Office is crap, everything is crap.

Now i'm a happy troll.

"There are some things Windows does pretty well" (1)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196491)

"Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition."

Thos are not things Windows does well. Those are things Microsoft's marketing and legal arms do well. So, if I want to sell something, or crush people who are selling something that competes with what I'm selling, great, Microsoft is the place to be. On the other hand, if I want to, you know, run my computer, I want a good operating system, not a good salesman.

The Linux Foundation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196493)

The members of the Linux Foundation are mostly big companies. One would expect it to identify with business more than the 'enthusiast' community.

Businesses don't usually snipe at each other and do usually treat each other with respect. In that light, it is not surprising that the public face of the foundation calls for the community to respect Microsoft. I, for one will follow his lead. Microsoft is due the respect we reserve for any other convicted criminal.

For better or worse... (0)

QunaLop (861366) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196495)

Whether or not you detest Microsoft, you have to realize the billions of dollars and man hours they have contributed to the industry. Even if some of that was done 'unfairly'.

Worse, actually (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196791)

You're discounting the value of progress they have impeded, the large amount of intellectual property that was not developed for fear of MS "acquiring" it (in the "Stacker" way) or making it deliberately malfunction (in the "Caldera" way), the damage to the industry by impeding natural competition (multiple convictions) and, of course, the gargantuan rip-off that is MS licensing where a company could not use the licenses that came with the equipment when they worked from a standard build, and the loss of many fine products because after acquisition they would, of course never be made available on a platform that simply works (think Visio).

Add to that the many, many , MANY hours lost to industry as a result of the incredible inefficiency by which the products worked and work (try graphics under any other OS), the damage caused to the music market by their DRM and the privacy risks their software creates ad infinitum and you might come to the conclusion that I would disagree with you.

And in /that/ you'd be correct..

Re:For better or worse... (1)

Nossie (753694) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196809)

billions of dollars and man hours contributed to the office 2007 bar?

woah thats a lot of innovation.

Microsoft decline (1)

gilesjuk (604902) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196499)

In effect Microsoft has only been on the radar for the average computer user for 10-15 years. The decline of Microsoft is starting, it's not a decline in profits or user base. But the realisation by many people that they are sick of the Microsoft lock-in.

Microsoft is desperate to branch out into other markets and in doing so their core products suffer.

People arent prepared to pay hundreds of dollars for Office anymore.

Their planning and project management for Vista was seriously flawed and the product has not sold well.

Uh huh... (4, Insightful)

RyanFenton (230700) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196509)

That's akin to telling the viewers of Fox News that it's important to "stop making fun of liberals, because they've here to stay, and they've made important contributions to the progress of the world at large".

No matter how important a role some group plays towards making something else important work, the nature of humans and comedy are going to have everyone and everything important to everyone mocked constantly. And no matter how bad that paints a picture of the large groups who mock other groups as part of that process - people are going to be mocking eachother as long as mental associations can be made.

The message behind this suggestion seems to be more a message to "act more professional people, you're making us look like bozos". Yes... it's nice to imagine sometimes that a loose community of groups and individuals didn't have to act exactly like the kind of human grouping it is. But we are humans, and Windows IS fun to make fun of, and most of us say that as Windows users.

Yes, Windows has contributed much for everyday users of computers - it has made many things possible that may not have been possible otherwise, and it will continue to be the best path towards many kinds of progress for the everyday use of computers going forward for the immediately foreseeable future... but it's still contains an endless variety of deep flaws that both mock the underlying nature (DRM motivations, artificially segmenting functionality for legal/marketing needs) of the software, and the human nature that lies behind these things, and our reaction to them.

Ryan Fenton

not the tech (4, Insightful)

ardor (673957) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196513)

Well much of their legacy tech is crap (see WinAPI). But .Net, DirectX, Visual Studio are excellent projects. So, I have no problem with MS tech. I do have a problem with their attitude towards others (that is, crush them and grab every single dollar in the market). MS got unpopular because of their actions, not their tech.

Respect? Yeah, like I respect... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196525)

Al Capone.

Microsoft will become the arch type 'Evil Empire' mafia structure in Hollywood films for roughly the first half of this century. A company that did not contribute any functionality to the legacy of mankind and predated on software companies, extorting end users through elaborate schemes cannot be considered as anything else.

Thier marketing sucks lately (1)

GregPK (991973) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196527)

Seriously, marketing the current operating system good???? If you want to market your product you need to make the whole organization from the field reps to the CEO, feel an internal respect for the product you are selling. Before I left I most certainly didn't feel that. Heck, the consistent cracks about Vista and other Microsoft related products was rather endless. Not to mention a tidelike flow of people leaving for jobs at other companies like Apple, Google, Netflix, ect. It's like the people in charge are really smart but have no idea of how to market a product. They need to go back to the basics again, rebuild thier marketing program. Don't use it to push defective products like Vista for the corporate suites ambitions show and glitz. Use it to push products within the Microsoft unbrella that currently work well. Also, use it to push for charities that would connect it to the very consumers that wouldn't otherwise buy the product.

It's a sad day in age when you can't even where a shirt that says Windows Vista in public without getting a "Vista sucks" comment. Hell, the people in IT at my new company nearly shot me for wearing that shirt one day. Microsoft's next release better be, AMAZING!!! Because, they have a lot of ground to makeup in IT departments, and companies everywhere.

Getting along with Microsoft (1)

monkeyengineered (1042116) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196529)

I agree with the sentiment of getting along with Microsoft, I use XP at work, mostly because it came on the computer, but most importantly because we use Autodesk Inventor which only supports windows, our Servers were Unix for years till the supplying company dropped it for Windows Server, again not our choice. I don't think Windows is going away, mostly because of Business interests and supported software. I don't have much trouble with XP, I don't download viruses or crapware, I keep up to date on patches, so I don't have the trouble that most people complain about, my computer doesn't crash all the time, Inventor crashes, but it's picky about hardware. all that being said I use Ubuntu on my personal computer at home, I love it, but for a guy without internet access, it can be irritating sometimes.

The reasons I ridicule MS... (1)

DarkDust (239124) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196531)

... are technical. There ARE things MS does well, even technically, but sometimes it's just astonishing how bad the Windows design is. Vista now made that gap to UN*X systems (including Mac OS X) smaller (e.g. symlinks) or even surpassed it (I consider the MS PowerShell to be technically superior to what we have on UN*X systems). But it still amuses me that with all the money, all the people MS has, their OS is still not far ahead of the competition. And if you know the history of MS, the reason for their dominance is ALSO (not purely) a lot of luck: they were in the right place at the right time, but I think it could all have turned out totally different. Nobody would know MicroSoft today if IBM would have used CP/M on the IBM PC, or if the MS guys wouldn't have known QDOS/86-DOS.

and then they will sue OSS out of existence (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196537)

they are already trying to claim they own a bunch of intellectual property in linux, and will eventually sue anyone who doesnt pay them protection money.

i also have respect for the mafia, they do a wonderful job of collecting garbage. its just the random murders that bother me.

Fire Him A.S.A.P. (1)

Delifisek (190943) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196559)

Linux community does not respect anything than better code...

Ridicule? No. Respect? No. (1)

A beautiful mind (821714) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196583)

this also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it
I do not really care to ridicule this corporation, although they can be ridiculed for many things. However, I do not respect the company, because of their methods to screw over everyone that is not them. Respect is earned, not demanded. I have no reason to respect the technological side of their products either, as I don't really think that without them the field of computing would have been worse off. Quite the contrary, in fact.

I had to check my calendar (1)

Skapare (16644) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196589)

Reading the title on this I had to check my calendar since I got the impression this might be the first day of the first full month of spring. But no, it is still the hot dog days of summer.

Respect is earnt. (1, Informative)

miffo.swe (547642) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196593)

And i cant think of ONE single puny nice little thing that Microsoft has done for Linux. I can oth think of pretty many things Microsoft has done to kill or stifle Linux. If Microsoft has earnt anything its respect in the sense you dont turn your back against a raving pitbull.

Re:Respect is earnt. (1)

Conor Turton (639827) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196653)

And i cant think of ONE single puny nice little thing that Microsoft has done for Linux.
Then you're fucking stupid. Without 98 and definitely XP, PC use in the home wouldn't be as widespread as it is now and you'd have sod all chance of getting Linux on the desktop because, as with IBM back in the 80's, nobody ever got fired for installing Windows.

I'll start respecting Microsoft.... (4, Insightful)

kazade84 (1078337) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196601)

when they start respecting Open Source and Open Standards.

Sorry no can do (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196611)

After all the pain they made us go through since windows 95, i cant stop poking fun at them. Thats the only way to withstand.

If i had stopped poking fun, the alternative would be to strangle whatever microsoft representatives i could find. Id rather poke fun.

Some things Windows does pretty well ... (1, Flamebait)

Skapare (16644) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196613)

... like keeping me from controlling the computer I own, bought, and paid for (and built with my very own hands and tools from a few boards and parts).

Makes good sense to me (5, Insightful)

Torodung (31985) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196623)

I too would respect the 400 lb. gorilla, though mostly by keeping my distance.

He's absolutely right on other points as well. If Linux rises to desktop prominence, against a competitor that has a 95% market share on the desktop (a practical monopoly), then the next logical step must be a duopoly, and it is doubtful that Microsoft will ever "go away." They will likely change the way they do business, like IBM did. Perhaps they will produce their own "open source" products, and then the Linux/FOSS community had better be ready for it, because they certainly won't be free software.

Expect it.

They've already proven the first axiom of business. Courts are the slowest moving thing on the planet. Business decisions will always outpace court decisions. That's how they got away with their illegal actions to slaughter STAC and Netscape. It didn't matter by the time the courts had decided. That's how Microsoft managed to pen a patent agreement with Novell, who won the MS-funded patent case against SCO, before the SCO case was even over. Did anyone notice that?

They're moving faster than anyone can litigate. Being right is not good enough here. You have to be right, clever, and decisive. If you can be ethical too, good for you, but ethical doesn't tend to work against an unethical opponent. Try winning a fair fight against a guy who is willing to kick you in the crotch and throw sand in your face some time.

Developers had better keep a careful eye on this gorilla, or you're going to end up working for him. Respect the gorilla.

--
Toro

Translation: (2, Funny)

morari (1080535) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196651)

Microsoft will never go away, so bend over, pass the Vaseline, and enjoy! Linux can coexist, but more so as foreplay.

Paging Dr. Freud? (1)

overshoot (39700) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196655)

"There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'

So on the subject of "what MSWindows does well," the best examples he can come up with are:

  • Marketing, and
  • fending off competition
How's that different from the critics saying that:
  • MSWindows is a marketing tool that
  • is designed to block other market entrants?

He wants them to change their tune, so since the message is the same I guess he just wants us to have the same admiration for software-as-ad-medium and market foreclosure that he does.

I wonder (1)

no-body (127863) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196669)

if there was some of the - what was it? 50 or so Billion $ of cash reserves skimmed off folks - involved?


And - yess, it's all success.....

two kinds of respect (1)

adrianmonk (890071) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196677)

There are two kinds of respect at play here: respect for their abilities, and respect for the intentions.

I would argue that they are deserving of some of the first kind of respect. Not necessarily respect for their technical abilities in most areas (although they've done a few worthwhile technical things), but their overall ability to sell stuff and make a product successful. Whether their methods are good or not, there have been lots of other companies with big monopolies who sat on their ass and lost it. Microsoft is tenacious and doesn't seem to be doing that. And they strategize fairly well (except when they don't).

Then the second kind of respect, I think most of us agree, is not something Microsoft deserves. They aren't trying to be good citizens, and they aren't even trying to make a particularly product from a technical (or even ergonomic) point of view. When it comes to designing things that work, Microsoft is very much about doing the minimum. This is especially annoying given their position as one of a few industry leaders (in the sense that people follow them, not that they lead well).

So anyway, the disagreement about whether Microsoft deserves respect might be a problem with terminology. I think most people agree that Microsoft deserves one kind of respect but not so much with the other kind.

Commentator asks rebels to respect the empire (1)

gnarlin (696263) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196681)

After all, they are here to stay and the sooner the rebel leaders accepts this
the sooner the rebels can learn to live with the empire and not to fight against it.

That guy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20196689)

sounds like a Microsoft shill. Seriously he thinks that illegally becoming a monopoly and flooding the market with retarded advertising makes them a great company? He needs to be beat with the clue stick.

Amazingly the captcha is "resigned". Hopefully we'll read about this yahoos resignation in a few days.

Depends on what you mean... (1)

neapolitan (1100101) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196691)

I hate to resort to definitions, but from Merriam-Webster:

>respect
> Etymology:
> Middle English, from Latin respectus, literally, act of looking back, from respicere to look back, regard, from
> re- + specere to look -- more at spy
>Date:
> 14th century
>
>1: a relation or reference to a particular thing or situation 2: an act of giving particular attention : consideration
>3 a: high or special regard : esteem
> b: the quality or state of being esteemed cplural : expressions of respect or deference
>4: particular, detail

Certainly Linux should respect Microsoft by definition 2, as with any strong contender. Zemlin does not appear to use definition 3, which is often what people mean by "respect" in popular usage. I think we could all agree with that.

You know I was just thinking this? (1)

Simon Carr (1788) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196709)

I'm tiring of fanboyism from every camp, Linux, BSD, Mac, Windows, Sun, all of them. I'm instituting an oath of "Computer Secularism".

This sounds funny, but really the only way computers are going to get better is if we praise and are critical of the best and worst of ALL offerings. Not just sticking to whatever platform we happen to check our mail on at the time.

I use every one (except for Sun, but my current job doesn't require it), and I have to be honest, they all have strengths and weaknesses that are notable. I even secretly think some of Vista's features are neat.

The same Jim Zemlin??? (4, Interesting)

alephnul (150293) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196727)

I wonder what happened in between this article http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may 2007/tc20070525_325967.htm [businessweek.com] and today's comment.

Can you say "Big chunk of Microsoft change in Zemlins pocket"? I can.http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content /may2007/tc20070525_325967.htm

really? (2, Insightful)

onegear (802747) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196731)

"Jim Zemlin (executive director for the Linux Foundation) gave a talk at LinuxWorld saying that the open source community should stop poking fun at Microsoft."

really??? how about MS stop lying about Linux and stop putting small companies out of business.

Respect? (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196761)

Paying respect to MS for using shady tactics, FUD and intimidation to gain their market position is like paying respect to a malware distributor for controling a million botnets. Yes, it ain't easy. But nothing that would be remotely praiseworthy.

excelled in marketing (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196775)

That is about it too, aside from excelling in steaing what they eventually market well.

I have two words for you this "linux community"... (1)

Ferret55 (589859) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196779)

"requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it" Respect microsoft? after it litigates through a proxy (SCO), threatens via patent litigation, disavows the gpl v3 license, astroturfs, tries to subvert the OOXML standardisation process and DRMs everything (not to mention locking up its own software) so that the CIA has a hard time getting its hands on its "trade secrets"? Is this the company you want me to respect? I have two words to deliver to this so-called "linux community" the first word starts with "get" and end with "-ed!". This time Microsoft gets to dance to our tune. And believe me, Microsoft is going to give a whole new definition to the word "flexible".

Nice ways to put it (1)

Zoko Siman (585929) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196793)

Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"
Marketing? Once you are the monopoly you don't have to do all that much work. Add on that mac OS was pretty shitty before 10 and you can see how MS got so much market. Fending off competition? Yeah, I remember a story about that, I think they either bought their competition with their monopoly-money, or sued them to ruin.

There are reasons... (5, Insightful)

HalAtWork (926717) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196799)

There are reasons to respect Microsoft, but it's not because of their marketing or the quality of their software.

One should respect MS as a relationship with MS could be compared to a relationship with any other vendor.

A typical non-OSS user won't exactly be enchanted if they see the OSS community treating another company like degenerates. They don't know the difference between MS and any other company, all they see is OSS devs/users treating a company like crap. If you take a one-sided view, that makes OSS devs/users look bad. That's probably the only view they'll be taking since they haven't worshipped at the church of FLOSS.

If you look at the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King encouraged all to be non-violent, not carry weapons, and not give any excuse for others to even mistake them for wanting to possibly even slightly exhibit any negative behaviour or thoughts. That's to take any power away from the enemy, as they can't say anything if there's nothing for them to point out.

Another reason is that truth can come from anywhere, and a good argument will stand no matter who makes it. If we simply expect everything out of MS to be garbage, then we will also miss any jewels, and that's just hurting ourselves.

Anyway look. Bottom line is to be better than MS, we can't let ourselves go by saying "Oh, well, MS fucks up, we can too, just not as bad." That's pretty asinine. Nope. To be better than MS, we have to actually be better than them, not stoop just as low as them.

Is fear close enough to respect for you? (0, Flamebait)

HiThere (15173) | more than 7 years ago | (#20196811)

I can't respect Microsoft. They are immoral, unethical, criminal, etc.

There may, indeed, be something good that one can say about them. The closest I can come is "They made a good mouse." That's not sufficient basis for respecting them.

Making fun of them? Of course. I'm afraid, and I don't intend to yield, so what else should I do? Cry?

So I cheer the victories of almost anyone against MS. And I especially cheer the victories of "the home team". And I shrug off the victories of MS. I must. Depression is bad for you.

MS, it's not just a disease, it's an operating system.

OK, that was in bad taste. And not original. It's the best I could do on the spur of the moment.
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