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Torvalds on Linux and Microsoft

Zonk posted more than 7 years ago | from the popular-subject dept.

Microsoft 363

Sniper223 writes with a link to an interview on the Network World site with Linus Torvalds. Linus goes through the usual spiel about stuff like why he released the Linux OS in the first place, and how the future is open source. He also has some interesting commentary on the Microsoft/Novell deal: "I actually thought that whole discussion was interesting, not because of any Novell versus MS issues at all, but because all the people talking about them so clearly showed their own biases. The actual partnership itself seemed pretty much a nonissue to me, and not nearly as interesting as the reaction it got from people, and how it was reported ... I don't actually personally think the Novell-MS agreement kind of thing matters all that much in the end, but it's interesting to see the signs that the sides are at least talking to each other. I don't know what the end result will be, but I think it would be healthier for everybody if there wasn't the kind of rabid hatred on both sides. Some people get a bit too excited about MS, I think. I don't think they are that interesting." An interesting contrast to our earlier conversation.

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Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (-1, Redundant)

Mukunda_NZ (1078231) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199419)

Well that's news to me. It's irritating when Linus is given all the credit for the operating system. He made the kernel, at the very least you generally need the GNU tool chain to have something usable, plus a couple of other little things.

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199429)

Stallman GNU-Linux fanboys are funny. And usually smelly.

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (5, Funny)

Omeger (939765) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199451)

Richard, is that you?

Look it up (0)

dbIII (701233) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199523)

It's irritating when Linus is given all the credit for the operating system
Wow - another guy that thinks we are using hurd (the gnu operating system) with a different kernel. I suggest looking up the textbook definition of operating system instead of going by "gut feel" or anything anyone in this discussion (including myself) says. It isn't very hard to tell the difference between an application and something that talks to the hardware.

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (5, Insightful)

thePsychologist (1062886) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199541)

To be fair though, Linux (the kernel) is what started it all: without the kernel, the GNU tools would hardly be as advanced as they are today, because the Linux attracted so many people. Without the GNU tools, well there would be other programs to replace them. There are a LOT more people who can write a userland tool than a kernel. That's why Linus gets a lot of credit, because there are few other people who could have done what he did.

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (1)

Brian Gordon (987471) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199569)

Agreed. For the developer, the kernel is the operating system. For the user they have all sorts of apps and things but when developing a "userland tool" when you're trying to interface with the OS you're trying to interface with the kernel. It's the basis of the whole OS and every single userland dev has to be familiar with the kernel, not each others tools.

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (3, Insightful)

xouumalperxe (815707) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199859)

Arguably, as neat as Linux might have been at the time, it would *never* have picked up speed without a solid set of userland tools on top, so there would never have been a set of tools specifically written for it. Sure, people could've used a BSD toolchain rather than the GNU set, but ultimately the Linux kernel was always dependent on somebody else's userland to carve its space in IT.

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20200177)

That could be true, except that most GNU tools were written before the Linux kernel was even usable.
If it weren't for the GNU project, Linus ("the guy") wouldn't have released the kernel under the GPL (as he says, it could have ended being just another one of his pets projects).
BTW, Linus gets all the credit for the kernel too, but there's actually an army of people working on it. Linus is no longer the irreplaceable hacker you seem to believe (if it ever was).

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (4, Insightful)

HermMunster (972336) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200197)

I am no fan of Stallman and I have some gripes with him about demanding only and all free software. But he clearly had created GNU before Linux (the kernel) was introduced and they were working in that direction. Clearly Linux (the kernel) was better than what they were working on and it was adopted by the industry, but let's not forget to give credit where credit is due. Stallman and his followers were the ones that created this whole thing and it would be unfair to put the credit in someone else's lap.

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199647)

Just because you disagree does not make this a troll, mods.

Book of Dick (4, Funny)

WED Fan (911325) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199939)

1. And it came to pass that the Prophet, Holiness and Peace be upon him, did rise up in the morning and despaired.

2. Behold, a vision I have had, he spoke.

3. God has shown me a terrible vision of heretics and wolves amongst the fold, those who deny his Holy Word the Third GPL.

4. And the Prophet went out unto the People of GNU and raise up his hand from the holiness of his loins, for he had been chatting, and said, I declare a holy fudwah upon the heretic Linus. From this point hence, he shall suffer the wrath of the /. masses.

5. And it came to pass that they rose up, worshiping his glory, and put on their AC guises and did post great numbers of words.

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (0, Troll)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199941)

Is that you RMS? still pissed off some student stole your thunder?

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (3, Informative)

Eighty7 (1130057) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200205)

The irony is it's your freedom at stake here with the GPLv3. RMS doesn't care much about credit. You're biting the hand that feeds you because it has a beard & is slightly overweight. It would be a joke of cosmic proportions if it weren't so tragic.

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199943)

I heard that you never finished Hurd.

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (5, Funny)

dhavleak (912889) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200075)

Oh no, here we go again..

"Linux just made the kernel; it's irritating when he gets credit for Linux"

"Yeah, but at least he made the Kernel -- Gates just made the Basic compiler"

"That's news to me - have you ever heard of this guy called Paul Allen?"

"Doesn't matter - personally I think the Linux kernel isn't all that - I use BSD"

"Screw Linus -- he was wrong about Bitkeeper and Tivo so he's wrong about MS & Novell"

"Yeah, well at least he's not a convicted monopolist"

"Yeah, until M$ stops treating me like a criminal I refuse to buy their software"

Also insert random quotes and mis-quotes such as:
"When Microsoft writes an application for Linux, I've Won." - Linus Torvalds
"640kb ought to be enough for everybody" - Bill Gates

That about cover it? Can we have a non-childish discussion now? If there's any other slime to be thrown, just reply to this post -- let's keep the forum clean for an actual discussion.

Re:Linus released the 'Linux' OS? (4, Interesting)

HermMunster (972336) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200179)

You don't win by sleeping with the enemy.

I disagree with Linus. I think the whole partnership is an extremely negative thing and falls into the same trap that Microsoft pursued through partnerships of the 80s and 90s. The end result was/is always bad for everyone but Microsoft.

In fact, I believe we should be significantly more hostile toward Microsoft because Microsoft is a convicted predatory monopolist that has claimed earlier this year that every user has to pay some dues to Microsoft and they also threatened to kill Open Source, with one of their representatives stating that 2007 was the year of the death of Open Source.

I think Linus is falling into a trap, by virtue of his relationship to many high end corporates, particularly those paying his bills. This is a tremendous influence on him and it is beginning to clearly show.

Microsoft is not the "necessary evil" of the computing industry. I fervently believe that the industry has been stifled in the long run because of what Microsoft has done in being predatory and killing off competition while being a monopoly. It used its power in a criminal way and has created a path down which we may never be able to recover. The hopes are that we can branch and have a 50-50 choice in software or even a 30-30-30. But being 90-10 is not the way to go for any industry. Only through competition with lots of car companies have we been able to produce some exceptional cars that are praised world-wide. Having only one software company essentially stifles all that.

The good thing is that in the short and long term IP will eventually begin to stifle Microsoft because clearly their employees can only produce so much IP each year. The rest of the industry is producing against them in a significantly greater amount, though, maybe not through IP filings but at least through prior art and obviousness. This means that either Microsoft will hit a wall on IP because there are millions of programmers world wide while there are only so many people at Microsoft capable of producing IP worthy of being patented. They also only have so many employees and only so many of those have the jobs doing the development and only so many of those have the skills to create new IP that can be patented. The rest of the world has vastly more people all capable of competing on the IP front.

The other thing that will kill some of their hopes is Vista. Recent, and past, denunciations of that OS have come down hard branding it world-wide as a product that is hostile toward the customer--an adversary of the customer. It can't long endure. The next piece is that DRM in some media is going out the door which was an important locking technology to lock you into Windows. The next bit are that Linux and OSX are growing considerably. This means that people are understanding that there is a choice.

The key to winning this is to educate the people about the fact that there are some solid and wonderful alternatives to Windows. The other thing is to educate them about the DRM, spying, manipulation, and generally bad faith in which Windows has been built to hide the fact that so much spying is going on on the user. Listen, your computer is an extension of your home. You would no more allow Walmart to put a hidden camera in your home to monitor to ensure you are not using stolen merchandise--and hence you should not be allowing Microsoft to install 47+ program on your computer to monitor your usage to determine if you are using stolen merchandise.

When people are educated and understand we all will have a much safer and more protected world free of the nasty privacy stealing immoral and unethical software being installed.

Be loath to accept SP3 for XP as I am sure it also has a slew of technologies to force you to give up XP and move to Vista or live with the same spying nastiness that Microsoft has incorporated into Vista. Be forewarned.

Discussion (2, Insightful)

WK2 (1072560) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199423)

I actually thought that whole discussion was interesting, not because of any Novell versus MS issues at all, but because all the people talking about them so clearly showed their own biases.

That is what a discussion is. A bunch of people giving their opinions, or "biases" as Linus calls them.

Re:Discussion (4, Insightful)

PenGun (794213) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199473)

In no way are opinions and biases the same. I could go on but I'm pretty sure it would act like water on a duck.

Re:Discussion (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199585)

In no way are opinions and biases the same

That's just your bias.

Re:Discussion (1)

PenGun (794213) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199637)

Re:Discussion (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199745)

It was just a lame attempt at a joke, hence my posting AC. You don't need to try to disprove it.

On another note:

It's been 16 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment

Jesus, how long do I have to wait before I can post?

Re:Discussion (2, Funny)

PitaBred (632671) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199927)

Somewhere between 16 and 29 minutes? Just a hunch...

Re:Discussion (5, Funny)

revengebomber (1080189) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200031)

Jesus, how long do I have to wait before I can post?
I'm sorry, Shiva controls posting restrictions.

Re:Discussion (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199481)

Yeah. It's interesting to see Linus talking about someone else's biases. He's never been shy of showing his own, so it's pretty ironic to see him accuse others of showing their own biases.

Re:Discussion (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199497)

I can't prove anything but it seems quite apparent that Linus has taken a lot of money to keep Linux on GPL2.

This is a plausible explanation for his behavior.

But who was it? IBM?

Discussion-Omission. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199583)

"That is what a discussion is. A bunch of people giving their opinions, or "biases" as Linus calls them."

Interesting how "facts" get left out of that definition.

Not interesting... Yeah right. (5, Interesting)

robvangelder (472838) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199427)

Some people get a bit too excited about MS, I think. I don't think they are that interesting.

"When Microsoft writes an application for Linux, I've Won." - Linus Torvalds

Not twisted... Yeah right. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199629)

He also talked about "World Domination" as well. Are you all going to twist that as well?

Re:Not interesting... Yeah right. (2, Interesting)

Vulva R. Thompson, P (1060828) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199909)

Just curious, anyone have a link to a list or interview containing this quote? Google indexed a number of sigs, but not a published source.

Re:Not interesting... Yeah right. (-1, Redundant)

BlueCollarCamel (884092) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200067)

Here's a list. [google.com]

Re:Not interesting... Yeah right. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199925)

Some people get a bit too excited about MS, I think. I don't think they are that interesting.

"When Microsoft writes an application for Linux, I've Won." - Linus Torvalds


I think Torvalds' opinions and weight on FLOSS is way too over rated. Even Linux isn't anything unreplacable.

Re:Not interesting... Yeah right. (4, Insightful)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200159)

Not interesting... Yeah right.

I actually think adoption is going at a fairly high rate, but what people sometimes miss is that there's just a huge inertia in switching operating systems, so MS Windows has a big advantage in just the historical installed base...
MS has a really hard time competing on technical merit, and they traditionally have instead tried to compete on price, but that obviously doesn't work either, not against open source. So they'll continue to bundle packages and live off the inertia of the marketplace, but they want to feed that inertia with FUD.
- Linus Torvalds, from TFA

Linus has no illusions about Microsoft's motives or ethics. He simply believes that Linux is the better operating system, and therefore adoption of Linux is a fait accompli, and is inevitable given sufficient time.

That's a fairly typical engineer's attitude, and ignores the enormous damage Microsoft is doing to the computing community while "inertia" is taking its course.

can you read me the url please (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199433)

if only it was a joke, then again any site called *world.com usually is

http://www.linuxworld.com/cgi-bin/mailto/x_linux.c gi?pagetosend=/export/home/httpd/linuxworld/news/2 007/080907-torvalds-on-linux-ms-softwares.html&pag ename=/news/2007/080907-torvalds-on-linux-ms-softw ares.html&pageurl=http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2 007/080907-torvalds-on-linux-ms-softwares.html&sit e=lw_general

Re:can you read me the url please (1, Interesting)

DaveG, the Quantum P (664195) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199449)

So Linus doesn't care about a company spreading FUD about systems based on his kernel so they can essentially elicit protection money? If so, then I am disappointed in him.

Re:can you read me the url please (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199503)

No offense, but that's why he's Linus and you're a fanboy...

Re:can you read me the url please (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199851)

No offense, but that's why he's Linus and you're a fanboy...
Actually I believe he's Linus because of Linus Pauling [wikipedia.org] , but you were right about the second part at least.

Not Again (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199491)

"I think it would be healthier for everybody if there wasn't the kind of rabid hatred on both sides. Some people get a bit too excited about MS, I think."

And here we have a perfect example of why Microsoft has spent the last couple of decades utterly dominating their two main markets:

1) Competitors who want to prove to the world that 'reasonable guys' and forever falling all over each other with the same tired old "maybe Microsoft isn't ALWAYS evil" BS

2) Microsoft execs with a laser tight focus to destroy all that lie in their path and merciless action against any who threaten their marketshare and cashcows

Apple(in the desktop OS market), Linux, the myriad failed office software vendors, Microsoft doesn't hate you, they DESPISE your weakness. Reminds me of that Mars Attacks! movie where the humans are open source developers and Microsoft are the Martians, except grandma's record collection isn't there to save you.

It is crap like Linus just spewed that lets things like the Mono fiasco happen to the open source world.

Re:Not Again (2, Informative)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199517)

There's a lot in common with Microsoft's upper management and the Scientology crowd. Both are very focused in what they do (mass walletectomies), and both are utterly ruthless when it comes to extinguishing opposition.

Re:Not Again (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199701)

There's a lot in common with Microsoft's upper management and the Scientology crowd.

Congrats! You have just realised that Scientology is a ruthless business! However, Microsoft do not kill people even through inaction so it is a pretty nasty insult to compare the two on any more than a superficial level.

Re:Not Again (0, Flamebait)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199735)

However, Microsoft do not kill people even through inaction ...

You're sure about that? And I'm under no compunction to avoid tossing a little nastiness in Microsoft's direction now and then. Besides, they're big boys, I'm sure they can handle the implied insult.

Re:Not Again (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199807)

Yeah, that will get business to warm up to Linux, accusing Microsoft of murder. Stability is important to business - that includes mental stability. What is the point of bashing Microsoft? You want more people to use Linux? Then don't scare people away yourself. For the average person or business, accusing Microsoft of murder and devil worshipping and whatever is like acccusing Coca Cola of the same, you just look like a retard.

Re:Not Again (1)

fimbulvetr (598306) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199879)

A religion that isn't ruthless doesn't survive. Go ahead, look around, you'll see what I mean.

Re:Not Again (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199617)

Linus is a developer, and doesn't try to be some sort of idealist or software messiah. If he was trying to beat MS and spent all his time hating them then he wouldn't have time or energy to actually write code.

Linus has no foresight (1, Interesting)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199525)

News at 11.

Re:Linus has no foresight (0)

Omnifarious (11933) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199557)

Well, I wouldn't say that exactly. But he doesn't seem to really understand the philosophy behind free software. Of course, he would agree with me and be rather proud of the fact. Philosophy isn't very pragmatic and Linus prides himself on his pragmatism.

But IMHO, it leads him to make some pretty stupid decisions and be blind to the implications of vendor lock-in and restrictive licenses. I also think it's the reason why I could care less what he thinks of the GPLv3 or the various patent issues surrounding Linux. He just doesn't seem to get it.

Re:Linus has no foresight (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199679)

Those implications may look very important but others are likely to have looked at them and dismissed them - I'm assuming you are talking up a storm aout the bitkeeper teacup? As for the US patent system - it's really a gamble based on what a jury in a small town in Texas has for lunch in some cases. It's a big world out there so that balances out - there's plenty of places where copyright is what it is about and not software patents.

Re:Linus has no foresight (3, Interesting)

nevali (942731) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199681)

No, if you read the stuff he says, it's clear that he does get it, he just disagrees.

He doesn't think people should have some god-given right to roll their own kernels on Tivos, for example, and he doesn't want to be the one to dictate that right to the people producing the Tivos, either.

On the other hand, though, he's perfectly happy with other people building their own alternatives to Tivos, complete with custom Linux kernels, if that's what they want to do.

Really, though, I get the impression his focus is really on x86 servers, where the software freedom thing isn't remotely as complicated and doesn't extend past the kernel into the firmware.

In all honesty, I can't help but wonder if Linus would've been happier with the MIT license.

Re:Linus has no foresight (2, Insightful)

GlassHeart (579618) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199753)

But IMHO, it leads him to make some pretty stupid decisions and be blind to the implications of vendor lock-in and restrictive licenses.

I won't comment on "stupid," but being "blind" is usually the folly of those who stick to philosophies. I don't think Torvalds was blind to the implications of vendor lock-in, rather he assessed it and accepted it. Just as you probably do when you fly on a Boeing or AirBus jet run by proprietary closed-source software, or any of innumerable other things you do in "civilized" life. You may believe that opening those sources would result in a better airplane, but you accept the risk differential and wait for your peanuts.

Re:Linus has no foresight (2, Insightful)

iminplaya (723125) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199793)

He just doesn't seem to get it.

Now, I don't know him from Adam, but maybe, to him, it just doesn't matter. I mean, what were his intentions? World domination? Or was it/is it just a fun hobby? If Linux was to be declared illegal tomorrow, he might just think, "Eh", and do something else. He appears quite capable of that. I can only assume he has a nice nest-egg built up. So would he suffer any great loss that he really cares about?

Re:Linus has no foresight (0, Flamebait)

Dhalka226 (559740) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199881)

This is one of the problems of the Free software movement. It's true to some degree of just about any group, but it seems that arrogance is just part of the religion with most Free software zealots.

Very few people here would claim that Linus is not a smart individual, but if he doesn't buy into every aspect of the dogma, it must be because he simply doesn't understand it. There's this "holier than thou" attitude about the whole thing that clearly if you disagree you're too stupid to understand the issue properly. It can't be that Linus simply has weighed the issues and disagrees with you; clearly he's ignorant and making stupid decisions that leave him so blind he simply can not make the "right" decision.

Fuck! Give me a break. You're free to disagree about it, but the attitude that any smart person would have to side with you is pure arrogance.

I like open source/Free software in general. I run linux. I run a number of these tools on my Windows box as well. I do not think it is the best solution to every problem. I do not like the GPLv3. I do believe there are a number of problems with the implementations if not the philosophy behind them. More than anything I believe that this sort of arrogance is probably the biggest obstacle to more widespread adoption. The bottom line is that nobody likes to deal with people who have attitudes like this.

But I guess that just makes me ignorant of somethingorother. The availability of the Kool-Aid, probably.

Re:Linus has no foresight (1)

Eighty7 (1130057) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200005)

Philosophy isn't very pragmatic and Linus prides himself on his pragmatism.

But pragmatism is philosophy. It's a philosophy that says "lets make decisions based on short term practical concerns." It's another way to disregard people's desires without actually saying you disagree. If someone can't easily quantify how much some freedom means to him, do you automatically disregard it?

Linus doesn't believe people should be able to run code without artifical hardware restrictions and should be called out on that instead of being allowed a pass due to 'pragmatism'.

Re:Linus has no foresight (0, Flamebait)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199967)

QuantumG makes another retarded comment then runs. Not News.

I'm not a Linux fan, but... (4, Insightful)

istartedi (132515) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199527)

The one thing he's known for, the Linux kernel, isn't something I particularly like (BSD--more liberal license, Windows--better desktop, Linux? I only use it because of work); but I tend to agree with him on a lot of things. That he would downplay the controversy, and point out that it only illustrates bias doesn't surprise me. He seems to have a gift for cooling things down, for steering clear of immature games and sticking to a clear analysis of the situation.

Re:I'm not a Linux fan, but... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199559)

Unless he is the one who started them...
 
gnome vs kde
gpl2 vs gpl3
 
Not that I disagree with him, perhaps his Finnish-ness makes him more blunt than most people.

Re:I'm not a Linux fan, but... (1)

istartedi (132515) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199593)

Good point about gnome/kde. Nobody's perfect. As for v2/v3, it seems like a classic "dammned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

A *myopic* analysis of the situation? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199633)

[Linus has a gift for] steering clear of immature games and sticking to a clear analysis of the situation.

Linus's analyses are usually clear, indeed, but almost always short-sighted. He doesn't seem to notice anything beyond the end of his nose, and so doesn't recognize the potential for bad things to happen as a result of people being bad.

It was so with BitKeeper. It was so with TiVO. It is so with Microsoft.

Linus treats everyone as if they were fair, generous, and cooperative. Unfortunately the real world is not like that. It's full of deceitful, self-serving, and non-cooperative people and companies who talk nice but do evil.

If all of FOSS and not just the Linux kernel were in Linus's hands, we'd be in trouble. Fortunately almost nobody else in the community is that naive.

Linus's genius is in design and coding (and in herding cats). It most definitely is not in foresight.

Re:A *myopic* analysis of the situation? (1)

EvanED (569694) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199703)

It was so with BitKeeper.

Was it? Linus has said that Linux is far ahead of where it would be had they not used Bitkeeper even for the few years they did.

Without BK, would Linus eventually have given up with the system he was using and written Git? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt he would have done anything else though. And if he had written Git, would it be as useful (to him at least) as he claims it is? Again, maybe or maybe not, but probably not.

So, no, it probably wasn't so with Bitkeeper.

Re:I'm not a Linux fan, but... (3, Informative)

Cathbard (954906) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199805)

BSD license is more liberal? Try so liberal that it is useless. RMS's GPL vision gives us protection against corporate parasites and without it FOSS would be nothing. Just look at the Dlink case if you don't understand the strength and advantages of the GPL.

Re:I'm not a Linux fan, but... (1)

commernie (1141297) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199843)

The one thing he's known for, the Linux kernel, isn't something I particularly like (BSD--more liberal license, Windows--better desktop...
Let me get this straight. You don't like the Linux kernel because Windows has a better desktop? Boy, are you confused.

Re:I'm not a Linux fan, but... (1)

Climate Shill (1039098) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200015)

I think you'll find that the Windows desktop will not run on the Linux kernel. So the confusion would seem to be yours.

Whether or not (4, Insightful)

Bullfish (858648) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199575)

you like Linus, he is right that the hate for hate's sake between some (and I stress some) Linux and MS users helps nothing. Beyond that, as he is the creator of the kernel, I see him as a parent watching his kid grow up to be something he didn't envision or desire for it. He needs to learn to let go, Linux now belongs to the community.

Re:Whether or not (3, Insightful)

GPL Apostate (1138631) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199819)

the hate for hate's sake between some (and I stress some) Linux and MS users helps nothing.

Actually, anything that keeps that group of people off on the side battling each other in their chosen little advocacy 'arenas' is good for the rest of us.

In classic USENET lore, the alt.os.*.advocacy newsgroups were a dumping ground to push the tards onto so everyone else could hold grown up discussions.

Thence we see one of the real problems with Slashdot. Where to park those folks so they're out of the way.

More whitewashing and fence-sitting (0, Troll)

toby (759) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199589)

...which is just not helpful.

Let's see them for what they are: Organised crime. One day justice will be done, Microsoft will be obliterated and the world will be a better place for it.

Re:More whitewashing and fence-sitting (4, Insightful)

Chineseyes (691744) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199645)

Let's see them for what they are: Organised crime. One day justice will be done, Muslims will be obliterated and the world will be a better place for it.
Let's see them for what they are: Organized crime. One day justice will be done, America will be obliterated and the world will be a better place for it.
Let's see them for what they are: Organized crime. One day justice will be done, Jews will be obliterated and the world will be a better place for it.
Let's see them for what they are: Organized crime. One day justice will be done, Gays will be obliterated and the world will be a better place for it.
Let's see them for what they are: Organized crime. One day justice will be done, Blacks will be obliterated and the world will be a better place for it.

Extremism serves no one. And yes I do realize the discussion of Linux and Microsoft is not comparable to the examples above, but you sound no less ridiculous.

Re:More whitewashing and fence-sitting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199717)

not only ridicoulus but offensive...while it's 'only' software
the whole situation is FUD'ded with one fanboy on the right and on the left..
gee ... noone could tell me linux is not the perfect OS for
my needs,desires and pleasures, i still would not go around
spewing that as my one-fits-all philosophy as some MS fanboys do (and saddly, even them FOSS devs sometimes do).

but Linus's right, who really takes MS seriously...
well , ...maybe managers and the likes , e.g. those of minimal complexion and wisdom ;)

Re:More whitewashing and fence-sitting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20200109)

dude - you are right on the money! I'm so sick of these retarded fanboi slugfests on /. Where have all the geeks gone? Nobody seems to have an informed opinion anymore! oh mods -- please mod parent way up!

Now, now... (0, Flamebait)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199693)

MS may be much and some of their tactics aren't what's considered fair competition, but they are not criminals. A criminal is by definition someone who breaks the law. Umm... well, they made some decisions that weren't completely in sync with some monopoly laws in some countries, but that doesn't make them criminals. It's not like they've done anything that hasn't been done before. It's been quite common e.g. to make retailers sell only your product if they want to sell it, or at least offer them more favorable conditions if they do.

Some of their tactics smell a bit like extortion, but putting MS into the organized crime corner goes a bit too far.

Re:Now, now... (5, Interesting)

setagllib (753300) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199747)

What, falsifying video evidence for court isn't illegal? Surely you jest.

Re:Now, now... a bit is not that much (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199755)

it's half of the system , ... e.g. they're 50% over the red line anyways

Re:Now, now... (4, Interesting)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199895)

They broke monopoly laws. By your own definition, that makes them criminals. Calling them organized crime is entirely accurate. I personally think every exec of MS should have been barred from ever working for a public corporation the minute MS was found guilty. We treat white collar crimes far too lightly- if a person steals $100, they go to jail for years. Someone makes decisions that costs the country millions if not billions, and they get a slap on the wrist and a fine for their company. Its fucking ridiculous- every corporate crime should require jail time for the CEO.

Re:More whitewashing and fence-sitting (1)

LighterShadeOfBlack (1011407) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199723)

More whitewashing and fence-sitting ...which is just not helpful.

Let's see them for what they are: Organised crime. One day justice will be done, Microsoft will be obliterated and the world will be a better place for it.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your post is deliberately ironic. ...The other possibility is too depressing to contemplate.

Re:More whitewashing and fence-sitting (4, Interesting)

sinthetek (678498) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199953)

I think it's ironic that so many people defend microsoft's illegal practices and policies. It's funny how people can see things in shades of grey when associated with a big entity (government or corporation) but everything is black and white when it comes to individuals. Just because MS products are more popular and it may seem easier to use/support MS in some cases doesn't make it more justified. They are a giant corporation who can afford to "lose" some money to competition which is why it's more outrageous when they break the law. Why is their management punished so much less than someone who robs a bank or sells drugs out of desperation? That person who robbed the bank/sold drugs is always considered a criminal eventhough they almost always had way fewer options than a big entity does, eventhough in the long run the robbery/drugs affects way fewer people and the criminal has way fewer options. Why does the big entity get defended more? Is it because the big entity is less criminal or because more people think it's in their own best interest to defend them?

Re:More whitewashing and fence-sitting (1)

sinthetek (678498) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199961)

I *really* need to stop posting these so zealously and preview/format appropratiely, haha. Let's just pretend the paragraph breaks are there ;)

Re:More whitewashing and fence-sitting (1)

dhavleak (912889) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200235)

It's funny how people can see things in shades of grey

But it is in shades of gray dude..

Firstly antitrust law is actually very murky territory. Prior to the antitrust cases, expecting the execs and sales people to be aware 100% of the time that some (potentially dirty tactic) is an antitrust violation isn't realistic IMHO. For example, if Apple has a monopoly of the MP3 player market and they refuse to license FairPlay, thereby leveraging their monopoly to expand into the online music sales market, is that illegal or not? Maybe it's illegal when iPods have 80% of the market but legal if they only have 65%?

Next, many countries don't even have antitrust laws. And even in the US, a company actually getting hauled up for anti-competitive behavior tells you more about the lobbying dollars spent by its competitors to get congress to ask the Justice Department to look into it, than anything else.

I don't mean any of this to condone M$ actions - penalizing a vendor for offering alternatives to windows is not nice. (though with over 30% of windows copies being pirated - IMHO they do have a limb to stand on when they say "don't sell a PC without an OS on it". Not a strong limb, but a limb nonetheless).

I don't even mean this to be a defense for any of their subtle protocol-changing dirty tricks etc. But the fact remains that all companies do nasty things like this all the time. That's why it's all shades of grey.

Why does the big entity get defended more?
It doesn't! Quite the reverse from what I see on this thread..

Embrace Your Buddha Nature (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199671)

Both sides are as bad as each other. Change the world? The truth is that the GPL mob have become the enemy. If you can't see that you're blind or don't have the guts to admit it. Microsoft worships the almight dollar. Slashdot worships Stallman. Run through the patent and copyright routine that follows on from that, whether it's for and against, and you wind up in the same shithole. The world's been like this since before man and, most likely, will be that way after we're gone. It's how things are built. Don't blame me, I didn't make the world.

Can't say I care anymore. I've got burned trying to help people out or encourage them. People don't listen or get their panties in a twist. It's difficult but I'm really inclined to just shrug and let people get on with it. People don't listen or give a damn, and only seem to care when things hurt them. Leave them alone with reality for long enough and they'll choke themselves or get a clue. It may sound cold and callous but it saves me hassle. While people fight among themselves I get more shit done.

Repent and ye shall inherit the earth? There's a lot of truth in that. Try it, sometime.

Re:Embrace Your Buddha Nature (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199731)

Slashdot worships Stallman.

This is false, although after making an obvious allowance for exaggeration and caricature it might hold true for a minority.

Quite a few posters on these boards are wary of Stallman and some of his pronouncements.

Now, if you say that Slashdot hates Microsoft, you'd be much closer to the truth. IMO disgust and distrust of Microsoft certainly helped fuel the growth of the free software community.

As for Torvalds, I've noticed he likes to tack back and forth on controversial subjects like Microsoft and the FSF, perhaps so that nobody will be able to pin him down. This is perhaps a tendency he shares with US presidential candidates :)

Linus, Linux (1)

breman (683776) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199675)

He probably hit on the topics that needed to be public most, for him, and the project. He is very blunt. He probably wants to concentrate on Linux and he's probably tired of people coming to him with fud. I don't think he is scared to say what he feels, he just wants to use his time on what he loves, family and programming.

Amen Linus (1)

xednieht (1117791) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199689)

I don't think they are that interesting.


So true.

Exciting (0, Redundant)

tripppy (921964) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199711)

I've never met anyone that was excited about windows. Open source and windows are going to live side-by-side ?
If you look at the main sections to the left. There is no "windows" or "microsoft" section.
GNU/Linux comes in so many flavours you can get a *nix OS for pretty much anything.
I still use windows, I use *nix's aswell.
But I've always hated windows.

Re:Exciting (4, Insightful)

everphilski (877346) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199733)

I've never met anyone that was excited about windows.

Talk to some directX nuts sometimes. They get pretty excited about it.

Re:Exciting (1, Informative)

GPL Apostate (1138631) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199837)

Well, it should be a given for us to accept that Microsoft marketing types are gonna fein excitement about 'the product.'

Re:Exciting (2, Funny)

bcmm (768152) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199739)

I saw people get excited about Vista.

I think they'd got bored and forgotten about it by the time it was actually released though.

Exciting-Yawn! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199771)

"I've never met anyone that was excited about windows. "

And I've never met a double-jointed woman. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

"If you look at the main sections to the left. There is no "windows" or "microsoft" section."

There's no "Hurd" or "BSD" section either. So what's your point?

Re:Exciting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199775)

I've never met anyone that was excited about windows.

Funny, I've never met anyone that loathed and despised Linux as much as some Slashdotters with excellent karma hate Windows.

Just saying.

Re:Exciting (3, Funny)

svunt (916464) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200047)

I've never met anyone that was excited about windows.
Excited doesn't mean that same as enthusiastic, or thrilled, it can refer to negative feelings as well...I think MS cause a great deal of excitement among the Apple crowd (sorry, the Mac Community) and the OSS crowd..I get excited, but not in a good way, by Windows all the time, so excited I could put my fist through the monitor sometimes. I'm pretty sure Torvalds was using 'excited' as an antonym of 'calm' or 'bored'.

oh dear!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199759)

Now that Linus doesn't find Microsoft bashing 'cool' and 'fun', does this mean there's no life's purpose for all the slashdot nerds? What will they do?

Re:oh dear!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199781)

The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world.

Kudos for the conservative approach. (3, Insightful)

pravuil (975319) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199845)

Know the battles that need to be fought and disregard the rest. It's a good way to lose precious energy and resources if you fight against everything without knowing what you are really fighting for.

...our earlier conversation. (1)

iminplaya (723125) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199865)

With whom?

Good for him (4, Insightful)

jorghis (1000092) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199873)


You mean Linus isnt a rabid MS-hating fanboy? I feel so disillusioned.

In all seriousness though it is nice to hear someone who actually matters in the open source community coming out against fud that comes from his own 'side'. (as if open source was about taking sides) The zealots who spread fud on the pro-linux side get way too much publicity and really make everyone associated with them look foolish.

Seems to be a Linux problem. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199901)

Linux users may or may not hate MS, but for 99% (pretty much everyone who doesn't dev software or hardware for a living) of MS users, asking them how they feel about Linux would probably garner a response like:

Linux? What the hell is Linux?

Linus has a massive ego (-1, Flamebait)

Schraegstrichpunkt (931443) | more than 7 years ago | (#20199933)

I don't actually personally think the Novell-MS agreement kind of thing matters all that much in the end,

Why should we care about what you think about it, Linus?

I'm so tired of Linus Torvalds flapping his lips in the media about things he isn't qualified to talk about. He's a technical lead for a systems programming project---not a lawyer, not an economist, and not a visionary. Furthermore, he's one of those types of people who thinks that because something isn't important to him, it's objectively unimportant, and anyone who disagrees is "biased" or "idealistic".

He'd be wiser to learn when to shut his mouth.

Re:Linus has a massive ego (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20199987)

Ditto that.

I TOTALLY agree with you (1)

RudeIota (1131331) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200155)

Whenever Linus gives his two cents about these kinds of things, his analysis always seems somewhat hollow and short-sighted. He often times sounds like he's just flapping his gums about something he doesn't understand, even though he may very well understand whatever it is in its entirety.

Linus has played a recognizable role in global technology and he's a person of importance, but I think he should focus less on press and more on his next great projects. Much like said above, he's not an analyst, he's a programmer.

credit where credit is due.... Bias where Bias is (2, Interesting)

3seas (184403) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200027)

Microsoft is credited with breaking anti-trust law and this is not just one case...

The Rieser (sp?) file system creator is credited with what, besides the file system? Killing his wife?

I think it shows Linus's bias to dismiss the illegal activities of Microsoft and to hide it by saying it is the rest of us showing bias.

Linus is not the only one outside of Microsoft doing kernel work, there are plenty others. BSD flavors, BeOS, ReactOS, AROS, Dragonfly (kernel changed enough to not really be tagged with BSD flavoring), Minix, MacOSX, etc...

For those who want to credit Linus with the kernel being used by a lot of Free Software, the fact is that had Linus not done so then somebody else would have, perhaps even the Hurd would have had better development and focus. And not to forget that the same Free Software is being run on other systems with kernels created by others.

If there is anything to realize here it is that people moved away from Microsoft for any number of reasons, I have my own user frustration related reasons and have additional frustration with the industry as a whole. When something better comes along I will move to it, as will others too. It might just be DragonFly.

Re:credit where credit is due.... Bias where Bias (1)

Cathbard (954906) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200175)

Hans Reiser has been convicted of nothing and that is a personal case that has nothing to do with the software world. That case is as wierd as a case can get so where do you get off assuming that he is guilty? How can you compare that to the plethora of convictions that M$ have received for unethical business practices around the world? Are you dissapointed when an apple doesn't taste like an orange?

Beautifully backhanded compliments. (4, Insightful)

Nazlfrag (1035012) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200119)

"MS has a really hard time competing on technical merit"
"Microsoft simply isn't interesting to me."
"I don't actually personally think the Novell-MS agreement kind of thing matters all that much in the end"
"Some people get a bit too excited about MS, I think. I don't think they are that interesting."

Why anyone thinks this means he's pro-MS beats the hell out of me.

Re:Beautifully backhanded compliments. (4, Insightful)

ozzee (612196) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200231)

Why anyone thinks this means he's pro-MS beats the hell out of me.

They're very kind things he said about MS compared to what he could have said, things like:

  • Microsoft is a convicted criminal monopolist
  • Microsoft commonly uses money to extinguish competition in destructive ways

... and he would have been correct.

Always been non-chalant... (5, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | more than 7 years ago | (#20200203)

It's basicly "I'm over here doing Linux, and I'll keep improving Linux regardless of whatever Microsoft does or doesn't do." That's not just in relation to MS, but seems to be the general case with tivoized kernels, DRM, patents and everything else that's not about improving the code. It's like an athlete saying he's competing against the clock and himself, constantly improving regardless of whether he's far behind or far ahead of the competition.

Usually, that's a very healthy attitude. And if everyone was running their own race, it would be. But Microsoft has proven time and time again that if they can't provide a superior product, they throw all kinds of dirt on the competition. He might not care if Linux is competition to Microsoft or not, but Microsoft certainly does. That's not to say he should start fighting FUD with FUD, but it'd be nice if he showed that he at least understands the game being played.

Microsoft can not kill Linux the kernel, because of the GPL. But there are many ways to kill Linux the market, and Microsoft is an expert at it. Again, I think Linus doesn't care all too much about that, or assume that if only Linux gets good enough the other "distractions" won't matter. Well, I care that Linux can be a mainstream OS that can handle mainstream media, interact with Windows networks and protocols, use common document formats and in general function like a first class citizen. If it's a stunning good kernel too, that's good but it's no good being exceptional at everything but the things I want to do.
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