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286 comments

Might I have this dance? (1)

I_redwolf (51890) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464071)

I just think that this blaming of games for peoples actions in getting way out of control. I'm gonna go play some smash brothers. Does that mean I feel like taking a hammer to my best friend? Blame the game! It's not my fault!; I'm being influenced by pixels and colors.. It seems the world is in a sad state when it can blame computer games for peoples actions.

Anyway thats enough 2 cents from me for a while. I feel like playing some quake and then going out and commiting random acts of crime. When I get caught I will blame it on quake. Or plead insanity.. whichever I can get away with

Really Arbitrary (2)

randombit (87792) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464072)

OK, DOOM is really really bad, but Quake, Quake II, Quake III, Daikatana (did that ever get released?), Unreal, and who knows how many other games are perfectly OK? What the hell?!?!? At least they could try to be consistent with their censorship.

However, I've got to admit it, Blood is a very violent game. If you ever get a chance, play it. :) If you like dark comedies and FPS, you'll probably like Blood. The literary references are great, and there really is a lot of humor throughout the game. Also, the continuity between levels is better than any FPS I've seen before or since.

almost first :) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464073)

closest I been so far

Doom? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464074)

Was not made my 3d realms...

Doom, Mortal Kombat, Duke Nukem ?! (1)

RAMLoss (103164) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464075)

Wow!, I guess authorities must get up to date with video games.
I wonder how many copies of these games are still sold. Even en Brazil this games are really oldies.
The measure seems to match the age of the games: really outdated.
At least that leaves us about 4 years of Q3 to play before they ban it.

No, I don't like sigs

homicical motivations: duke nukem (1)

Phexro (9814) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464076)

Hell, he was most likely just frustrated with those crappy DN controls; I sure feel more aggravated having to deal with that wretched excuse of a game. Another fine example of your tax money at work.

BRAZILisNUTS (2)

LocalYokel (85558) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464077)

The only thing lamer than a rehashed game with more 3D eye candy and higher system requirements is a ban on them. Darwinism works here -- eventually people are going to get sick of playing Wolfen^H^H^H^H^H^H Quake (and its pretenders) on their own -- we needn't extend that period by adding attractive taboos...

Interesting, this was posted as game news, not as a censorship article...

Other factors (3)

jhughes (85890) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464078)

> However, this is only a version of the >prosecution, which also stated that Meira had >traces of cocaine in his blood and had in the > >past been treated for stress-related problems.

When I was in high school, some kid in a nearby town slammed his car into building, killing himself. There was a note about how all his hard work had been for naught and all that sort of stuff and that's why he decieded to take his own life. When the police interviewed his friends they learned that in a recent game of Dungeons and Dragons, his character who he had worked on for nearly a year had fallen victim to a fatal curse or something like that.

When they interviewed other people they learned a injury was forcing him to miss out on his Senior year of high school football, and his girlfriend had just left him.

Guess which one that Media picked up on and blamed? Being in a town just a short ways away, we felt the impact a lot. I play RPGs a lot and during this time I was insulted a few times and even talked to by teachers at school, didn't like being called a satanist much either.

Almost all of the people who spoke to me had read the original news report which stated that D&D possibly caused this sucide run, very very few people read the later articles which started to point towards his other, real world problems.

Point I'm trying to make (in a long round about way and what is probably beaten to the ground by now:)) is this: how many of these cases where Video games have been blamed initially have actually turned out to be "not the whole story"?

I think there's just a whole idea of media and people as a whole who just run to the first thing they see and say "That's the reason!!"

Sorry for the ramble :) 3am on 4 hours of sleep :)

I thought it was Carmageddon (1)

TheRogue (71674) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464079)

The article refers to the game "Armageddon", which I have never heard of. The description sounds a lot like Carmageddon... Always a good time!

More Info, an error... (2)

bravehamster (44836) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464080)

The list of the games banned are: Doom, Mortal Kombat, Requiem, Blood, Postal and Duke Nukem. Personally speaking, I've played 4 of these (Doom, MK, DN, and Postal). I don't know about the other two, but these are rather old games. Is Brazil's game market just behind the times and these games are the new ones there, or are they just banning the violent games that this man had in his possession?

One error I noticed in the story...Brazil had previously banned the car racing game "Carmaggedon" which the article refers to as "Armageddon"

One final note...I think this too shall pass. Does anyone besides me remember about 9 or 10 years ago, when Dungeons & Dragons was all over the news because some kids had used a sword to kill one of their neighbors and they played D&D all the time? This same type of hysteria and irrational attacks that focus on video games now focused on D&D then. Quite a few schools banned it from being played. Guess what? D&D is still here. 10 years from now, violent video games will still be here, and the level of detail will be incredible. Check here [bungie.com] if you want to see what level of realism video games will be attaining next summer.

This hysteria shall pass, and shall come again some other time. Kinda like Halley's comet, only more frequent and quite a bit more annoying.

Idiots... (0)

BackSpace (41879) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464081)

I can't beleive this.. it is really idiotic.. using this logic they should ban all movies/books/novels that have killing, fighting and/or violence..

btw, is there any one still playing Doom these days ??

A distracted soldier (1)

Ricardo Casals (103689) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464082)

So I was runnin around fraggin people and I saw this story and I just had to put my gun down. I said "Yo, what the !@#$^&? That's FUBAR, they have gone AWAL! Somene call the MPs to get those crazy Brazilians outta here!" After this I picked my BFG back up and started killing my enemies.

Did you notice how that was, like, FICTION?! HELLO! Wake up you Brazilian freaks! I mean aren't you the ones doing those military experiments on people and stuff? Sheesh!

Re:Doom? (1)

plunge (27239) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464083)

id is going to be fucking pissed!

Re:Doom, Mortal Kombat, Duke Nukem ?! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464084)

see the thing about this is they get finally get around to banning the game once it's no longer "cool" so I assume it's not a really big deal anymore.. And with the fine.. who the hell still sells duke3d and doom!
lol!

Sad day (1)

Fong Sai Yuk (33255) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464085)

Sigh. It makes me so mad to see that people can blame everything but the system. "Hey, not everybody is a maniac running around shooting people. What could have caused this person to go on a killing spree? Hmm." Then insert your usual scapegoat reason. TV, movies, video games.

Maybe it's because mommy and daddy didn't raise this individual correctly.

But, what does logic have to do with it?

Re:Other factors (1)

Fred Ferrigno (122319) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464086)

I have to add, anyone who plays the same character for a year (as if that weren't stupid enough), then allows some jerk DM kill it off with a stupid curse needs to go and buy a pair a boots to kick the DM in the nuts.

It's more fun if you switch characters often anyway. Once you've already got the perfect character, what's the point?

Chicken or the egg... (0)

KillKenny (125228) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464087)

I think people find it hard to pinpoint if these games are the cause of increased violence in society or the symptom. I believe they are certainly a perpetuation of the desensitization towards violence but it is pointless to classify them as symptom or cause since the genie is already out of the bottle. Unfortunately the media and politicians like an escape goat and these are very easy to target. It is easy to blame an outside source so that you will not have to look to yourself. If we as society blame the games then we do not have to blame ourselves for the violence.

games don't kill people, people kill people (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464088)

Why should a harmless game be baned? whats the use of doing that when theres probley mroe violence on the news now days then there is in games like doom, doom is a simple fantasy game, if you can't tell real life from a game then your a) too young to being playing that game or b) have a mental problem of some sort. i use to play doom, duke 3d, mortal kombat etc all the time and i'm a perfectly normal person now, i still get a kick out of snipering someone in a game of action quake but that doesn't mean i'm gonna take a drive down to the gun shop and buy a rifle and start shooting people at random...

Gun control (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464089)

You know, it's really hard to kill three people and wound eight with an automatic handgun if automatic handguns are illegal.

Let's how long it takes for the gun nuts in the audience to moderate this down.

Killings like this are usual in Brazil (5)

jquiroga (94119) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464090)

From The Economist, 'Gun Law in Brazil' (19-Jun-1999):

When gunmen attacked a bar on the southern outskirts of Sao Paulo last weekend, killing four women and three men in a hail of bullets, perhaps the most terrifying feature of the incident was its sheer normality. It was Sao Paulo's 28th multiple shooting so far this year, and such carnage is a familiar weekend event in several other Brazilian cities.

[...]

The Justice Ministry estimates that the country's 160m people hold perhaps 20m guns, of which only 1.5m are registered. According to a recent United Nations report, 88% of murders in Brazil are committed with firearms, a higher figure than in any other country.

Duke Nukem is virtual. If you live in Brazil, you play the game for real.

I know it! (1)

TunaPhish (81577) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464091)

He felt like kicking ass and chewing bubble gum...
But he was alll outta gum!



Kicking ass works just as well. :)

Re:More Info, an error... (1)

Gregg M (2076) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464092)

Got any Pokemon cards?

No, But we sure do have a bunch of cabbage patch dolls!

Re:Doom, Mortal Kombat, Duke Nukem ?! (1)

Fred Ferrigno (122319) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464093)

Yeah, exactly. Anyone who wants it already has it, or can get it ReallyEasily.

When I heard about Columbine, I couldn't stop thinking about what kind of kid was still playing Doom after all this time.. I thought maybe they were playing something more recent like Quake, and the reporters managed to over-generalize FPS's as Doom. Can anyone confirm that they were actually playing Doom, and if so, what version (1 or 2)?

When something like this happens, you have to... (1)

T.Hobbes (101603) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464094)

... bring in the Katz. (time for sleep)

Such a waste. (1)

jidai (74229) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464095)

I am constantly growing tired of hearing about "such-and-such" caused "so-and-so" to do "this-horrible-deed". When are people going to be held responsible for their actions? Blaming sick people's actions on anything from games, to TV, to (even our beloved friend) the internet has been a nice skapegoat for the press and people to say "Well, I'll be sure to look out for that." I'm sure that whoever that man was, he would have done the same thing regardless of whether he had played alot of duke nukem or doom, etc, etc. Plainly, this man was sick.. Instead of governments, parents and societies blaming people's actions on things that (i beleive) have no relevent baring on their own "free-will" actions, other steps should be taken. The Brazialian governemt has wasted time, money and manpower on banning things that are just going to become easily attainable through the internet anyway. Why not instead do they invest more time, money and manpower into finding ways to help people who are afflicted with these sorts of mental illnesses. I remember when Ice T's "Copkiller" album was released, and it was banned through-out a large portion of North America.. Any police shootings that happened afterward were then blamed because the shooter "had an Ice-T album." Wake up. People do horrible things because they want to, not because they see or hear them in games, TV music, etc.

"coke fiend" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464096)

Note how the people quick to jump up and say "violent video games don't make people kill each other" will still say "drugs make people kill each other". Maybe no inanimate objects are at fault for what people choose to do.

Re:When something like this happens, you have to.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464097)

No doubt...hey Jon, where the hell are you? Aren't you going to come and tell how this relates to the Chicago riot of '68...I'm just asking 'cause I know how you like to take old news, relate it to your current crusade and then babble like a whiny little bitch about it...

The same police that kills the children! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464098)

Incredibile. In Brasil there are Death Teams, that kills children without a home, in the streets.

Dude! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464099)

D&D killed my dog, you bastard!

It's people like you that make me sick.

Re:"coke fiend" (1)

punkass (70637) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464100)

video games - alledged pyschological effect
drugs - documented chemical effect

See the difference?

Garth Brooks in the life of John Wayne Bobbitt (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464101)

Come on doctors now, smile on my penis, everybody piece it back together... right now, right now, right... now.

Re:Gun control (2)

rappybaby (53126) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464102)

You know, it's really hard to kill three people and wound eight with an automatic handgun if murder is illegal

Wait a minute, they already made murder illegal. I guess it didn't work.

Re:"coke fiend" (1)

Darchmare (5387) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464103)

Perhaps it has something to do with the little trait many drugs have of altering the chemical balance of the mind?

If you shove a video game up your nose, I doubt it'd be good for you either.

- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com] )

Zany Brazilians? (1)

Karma Sucks (127136) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464104)

My first reaction was: those fucking brazilians are stupid, who cares about them. Then it occurred to me that a few hours ago my own Quebec government had banned smoking in the work place... for similar reasons. Smoking's bad for you vs violent games are bad for you... where's the difference?

Moral of the story: It can happen to anyone.

Re:The same police that kills the children! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464105)

Lighten UP! It's not like they are killing people who have jobs and homes. Eliminate Poverty....literally.

Heh,where have we heard all this before... (1)

Inkey$ (115300) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464106)

Lets see,about a thousand different times and places.Computers are just a good scapegoat nowdays.chat on 'em if you want,but if anything goes wrong no matter what it is,blame it on a computer.Y2K hasn't been a huge help either...

Re:More Info, an error... (1)

wnissen (59924) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464107)

I don't know if it's exactly an error, but somehow saying that Postal "converts the player into a stressed-out clerk who kills his office colleagues." seems a big far-fetched. Heck, half the gamers in America would have become stressed out postal clerks by now...

Walt

Yep, I still do. (1)

Shadox Tsurien (125711) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464108)

Yeah, I still play it (using Zdoom.) Even though I have Quake 1 and 2, and Unreal tournament, Doom still has unique qualities and a level of fun equal to or greater than the new games. Plus, it's cheap and it will run on almost anything.

Over reaction, but still.... (1)

SYS2066 (37710) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464109)

Banning theese games seems like a gross over reaction, the games are certainly not the real question here. However, the games reflect, in some way, the society as a whole, and that should be bothersome..

I haven't played games for a while (Quake II proably the most recent), and one have to wonder - where is the fun in games like Postal? It seems that fast 3D games have become synonyms for fast gory violent games. Seems unessesary to me.

(Go Tetris! Go Boulder Dash! Go nibbles!) ;-)

// Simon

Games influence kids (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464110)

Make no mistake about it. Games do influence kids in a major way. Warcraft, for example, can lead kids down a corrupt path of illegal logging, which is a very big concern in Brazil. And do we really want our young fishermen to have unrealistic expectations of fish sizes when they delve into games like Trophy Bass Fishing?

If I... (2)

Graymalkin (13732) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464111)

were going to ban a video game because it "trains" people for violence or some such I would ban Rogue Spear. I jump back in my seat when I get nailed in that game (due in part to my speakers turned to maximum). The realism of Rogue Spear train people for tactical situations alot more than Quake with its rocket jumping and plasma guns. Video games are the LAST reason people kill other people unless you're a fscking camper out on the up on the quad damage platform. I suppose video games are being banned because coke and selective fire weapons have already been banned. Or so it goes.

insert foot into mouth... (4)

LocalYokel (85558) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464112)

Robin, would you like something to wash down that foot? The Brazilian government chose to make violent video games the scapegoat -- you made it cocaine.

People like to draw conclusions that match their personal convictions and blame the problem on something else. If you like violent games, you blame cocaine, and vice versa. Personally, I think it's got everything to do with boredom, watching overdubbed American sitcoms on Brazilian TV. We'll never REALLY know why it happened -- trying to find the WHY and pointing the finger elsewhere isn't going to do any good.

Speaking of futile quests to find meaning in things that have none, I feel another JonKatz article coming on...

Re:Zany Brazilians? (1)

Karma Sucks (127136) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464113)

I might agree with you, except that I strongly object to your implicit insults towards gays and men with "small" penises. *that* was uncalled for, but you are right that Quebec is one of the more braindamaged provinces of Canada - I live here.

I might also add that I'm personally quite happy about the non-smoking laws as I quite hate cigarette/cigar smoke.

Re:Really Arbitrary (2)

drix (4602) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464114)

No, Daikatana did not ever get released. It probably will never get released, seeing as that egotistical prick Romero is heading up the efforts. It's already using outdated technology. The game will be lame.

--

Why does this keep happening? (1)

homerj79 (58075) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464115)

Why must such tragic things such as this be blamed on video games? It seems even more common now, with the Columbine situation, than in the past. I'm assuming the media and governments need some place to put the blame, rather than themselves, and video games seemed to meet the criteria. I've yet to come across a game that will get me so worked up and enraged, that I will decide to go on a shooting spree in public. Also, one question in regards to the article, since when was DOOM published by 3D Realms? I thought GT Interactive did the old id publishing... w3rd.

Oops (2)

drix (4602) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464116)

Well.. nevermind. Looks like they might have actually completed the game. Two years behind schedule.

--

On Fear And Understanding (4)

Effugas (2378) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464117)

It is not so much that we fear what we do not understand, as that we scapegoat what we do not enjoy. That which may be scapegoated may be suppressed; that which we enjoy ourselves we refuse to live without.

A recent poster mentioned a case in which, faced with the choice of blaming a suicide upon either a high school breakup, a sudden injury ending a football career, or a loss of a Dungeons and Dragons character, the media placed blame firmly upon the latter.

One can complain about the unfairness, or one can analyze it to determine the source of its absurdity in utterly plain terms.

Suppose, for a moment, that the media had chosen to scapegoat the breakup as the cause of the suicide. Immediate result--teen relationships deemed dangerous, parents advised to keep close watch on their out-of-control youth...but it doesn't work, because parents both remember their own, non-suicidal relationships and directly experience the estrangement caused if they meddle in teen relationships. Similarly, the many teens that had survived and moved on after a breakup realize the inaccuracy of blaming all breakups for the results of one breakup, and wouldn't care what their parents said anyway.

What's interesting, is while all parties involved in this scenario could *understand* the suicide in terms of a breakup, it's an ineffective scapegoat, and is thus curiously unsatisfying. If you can't suppress anything, the theory goes, you haven't done anything. It Could Happen Again.

What's really sad is that it's a direct consequence of being unable to put a dollar value on life! After all, if you absolutely *have* to do something, and you're not willing to take "acceptable losses" on the life side, you have to do something: Find non-life "acceptable losses" that are, of course, as little of a loss to you as possible. Teen dating is just too familiar to eliminate, so it's unsatisfying to blame.

And what of the two remaining options--football and D&D? Football's an American tradition. Only satanic freaks play D&D(note the distinct lack of understanding). Guess which makes the better Acceptable Loss.

And the real tragedy? Isolation is the real killer, but nobody wants to be forced to incur the "acceptable loss" of being friends with the isolated.

Yours Truly,

Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com

Re:"coke fiend" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464118)

drugs - documented chemical effect

And this chemical effect causes otherwise sane people to lose all control of themselves and go on a violent killing rampage?

Re:"coke fiend" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464119)

Perhaps it has something to do with the little trait many drugs have of altering the chemical balance of the mind?

Video games alter the chemical balance of the mind. Everything you do alters the chemical balance of your mind.

Re:On Fear And Understanding (1)

Karma Sucks (127136) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464120)

Not to be rude, but can someone give the short version of this so that I can figure out what the fuck he's talking about?

As far as I can see this is just another weakly disguised attempt to write something that seems intelligible just to gain more Karma.

(and yes, feel free to moderate this down)

Re:"coke fiend" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464121)

uh oh..I guess I better stop! This is my fourth coke in an hour. I can't seem to resist the cool refreshing beverage. *KILL* *KILL* Oops, that must be my chemical imbalance kicking in.

An age old problem in Brazil (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464122)

Really, does anyone think this is going to work? Brazil is a country beset with many problems. Drug abuse, AIDS, miscegenation, murder, infantcide, and alcoholism. How can these problems all be blamed on computer games? These problems existed in Brazil for many years. In the 1940's when Orson Welles [imdb.com] tried to make a movie titled It's All True [imdb.com] exposing this corrupt hedonistic society, it was deemed too sensational for American tastes. The studio cut off its funding, destroyed much of the footage, and would not let it be released. It would not be until 1993, 51 years after it was filmed (and after Welles's death), that salvaged segments of this shocking film could be released. So you can see that the problems of 1942 are still there today. And who could blame DOOM in 1942? Digital Computers were just being conceived. Brazil's problems are with its people, not with the games they view on their computers.

Reverse Psychology (1)

reflector (62643) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464123)

Well, banning those games is one sure way to make them more popular. Speaking for myself, anything that is made illegal by a bunch of arrogant, spineless, and simple-minded politicians is something that I'm going to try, and definitely something that I'm going to support.

How long do you suppose it'll be before there's sites to download these games all over Brazil? If they try to shut down those sites, how hard do you suppose it will be to find a place in the US or elsewhere else to make the games freely available?

Prohibition does not work! It failed in the US against alcohol, it's failing against marijuana everywhere in the world, and it will fail against this, as well. Unfortunately, the people that run for office are rarely of a calibre that can learn from history, and almost invariably doomed (sorry for the pun) to repeat it.

Of course... (2)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464124)

Cocaine is their number 1 cash crop. Can't crack down on the guys who grow that stuff. 'Sides which they kind of run the place. And shoot you if you try to crack down on them. So blame the video games. Much safer. No one was ever dragged from their car and shot execution style by a pissed off video game cartel.

My Last Little Two Bits (0)

NatePWIII (126267) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464125)

Ok I agree I've spammed a little this past week if thats what you want to call it. Yah, I slipped my link into practically every message that I wrote. Basically all I was trying to do is let people know that there are some good deals out there and I think we're offering a pretty damn good deal. We are just starting out (as of oct.1999) so we are a tiny little company of four who can barely make ends meet let alone pay for a t1 line. You have to understand who we are competing against... Multi-million dollar webhosting companies and domain registrars like Network Solutions. We don't have the manpower nor the money to produce the kind of advertising that they compete against us with. So I figured maybe I could get the word out by posting a few comments in slashdot. Now I realize I was wrong in trying to advertise on Slashdot. So I won't do it again. The reason I gave my personal email account is because I didn't want to clog up our business account but you can send your two bits to it if you want at: nathan@npsis.net Sorry for the annoyance.

Re:On Fear And Understanding (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464126)

Basicly, he's just saying that whatever the media deems responsible for tragedy becomes a new public enemy. The media chooses the reason most "abnormal" reason, and everyone jumps on (us vs them).

You mean Frogger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464127)

Have you seen the new version of "Frogger" (really)? It is awesome.

Re:On Fear And Understanding (2)

Effugas (2378) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464128)

Short version:

Given:

Kid kills himself. Depressed for three reasons:

1) Lost his GF
2) Lost his Football Playability
3) Lost his D&D

Life is of absolute value, so you NEED to eliminate/suppress/change the way things are so that the infinitely valued Life isn't lost again.


Question:

Which something gets changed to defend the absolute value of Life?


Theory:

That which will cause the least suffering by its suppression(per influential / popular person), or is least understood by the general population, will be the activity suppressed.

Everyone understands love. (Or, more accurately, everyone fails to understand it in a similar manner.)

Everybody loves football.

Ah! But what the fuck is that D&D shit? Blame it, and you're not isolating a significant portion of the population BUT you've done something to defend the absolute value of Life.

Karma dude--go ahead, email me privately. I usually don't go off all philosophical, but if I do, I do generally have a point I'm trying to make. I spent about four years studying Locke etc., so that's why I'll end up speaking like 'em.

Feel free to shoot me if I ever start impersonating Kant.

(Seriously. Contact me. I'm sure you have more to talk about than how Karma sucks ;-)

Yours Truly,

Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com

Fuck you moderators. (1)

Karma Sucks (127136) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464129)

I noticed the above was moderated down. Let me say this: I WILL NEVER SAY WHAT THE MODERATORS WANT ME TO SAY. I will speak my own mind and not give a FUCK for what moderators think.

Sao Paulo is the murder capital of the world (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464130)

It beats out Los Angeles by a wide mile. I don't have the exact figures, but it is in the thousands yearly.

Re:"coke fiend" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464131)

Funnily enough, I've tried both! (1) The video game party trick was substantially easier on the bank account. (2) Both moves impressed roughly the same number of women. (3) Of the the women that were impressed, those who were impressed with Doom expressed a significantly higher incidence of 2nd date interest than their sisters. I wont go into the pharmacological deatails as to why.

I guess what I'm saying is Brazilian police should be shoving Doom up coke head noses instead of banning the game. Its really simple if you apply a little logic to the situation.

Brazil is a funny place. (3)

Captain Zion (33522) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464132)

I live in Brazil, and this is just another case of authorities doing something stupid just to calm down the media. It happens all the time.

The "theatre massacre" had an enormous repercussion in Brazilian media. The first move from the ministry was to restrict "The Fight Club" to sessions after 10PM and to adults only. Not a good deal IMHO -- the shooter is an adult, and it happened after 10PM anyway! Besides, the shooter declared that he didn't watch the movie before acting. What if it happened in Disney's "Tarzan", and if the guy was addicted to Civ or Tetris? Would they ban that too?

Last month a bank inside my school was robbed. The day after, they checked everyone's badges to enter the school. What's the idea? Would the bank robbers return using bad badges or something?

There's a clear difference between a guy that is already a psycho and happen to have certain (very popular) games in his computer, and all the rest of game players. How many of you slashdot readers have played Doom or DN and went to the streets exploding barrels and shooting people?

Brazil is a funny place indeed.

Re:Gun control (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464133)

Go back to Russia

I'm your moderator... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464134)

and that's exactly what I wanted you to say!

(Posted anonymously 'cause I want the moderation to stay that way.)

Moderation as trolling.

I love it.

Re:Sao Paulo is the murder capital of the world (3)

jquiroga (94119) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464135)

Here you can find a human rights report from the Department of State. It's not pretty at all.

This excerpt is downright scaring:

The shooting of two suspected bank robbers by a police officer in Rio de Janeiro, recorded on video tape and broadcast in its entirety on the national evening news, graphically illustrated the commonplace use of lethal force by the police and the public's tolerant attitude toward such practices. On August 5, a uniformed police officer on duty in a busy public square in the Ipanema neighborhood of Rio de Janeiro, alerted by a bystander, approached two men on a parked motorcycle who were suspected of just having robbed a local bank. The uniformed policeman drew his gun and approached the two men. As he came close enough to question them, he also attempted to take a gun from one suspect who then attempted to draw the gun himself. Without further warning, the policeman shot both suspects in the head at point blank range in succession and fired four more times as the suspects lay on the ground. The initial intense media coverage of the incident focused mostly on the positive public response to the policeman's actions. His superiors decorated him for bravery. Some media and human rights observers questioned the appropriateness of the officer's action, his lack of training and preparation to deal with such an incident, and his use of lethal force in a crowded public area.

http://www.usis.usemb.se/human /human1998/brazil.html [usemb.se]

Will someone give a little? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464136)

OK, computer games, or violent movies or X does not cause people to go out on a shooting spree.

However, will someone admit that by playing something like Quake, the player's aim in reality may be improved?

Can we keep saying that computer games, or violent movies, or X are 100% completely innocent? How about 99.99% innocent?

Does anyone understand what I'm trying to get at here?

MODERATORS -- moderate this one up! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464137)

The uncapitalized "y" is the very height of ironic commentary. It's really sad that whoever moderated this didn't realize that it was an extremely sublime attack on attitudes held by almost every poster so far on this article.

Ah, what I'd give for a few moderators who "get it"..... Not that I ever write anything that intelligent, but I'd love to see it get the recognition it deserves.

Re:On Fear And Understanding (1)

Effugas (2378) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464138)

Basicly, he's just saying that whatever the media deems responsible for tragedy becomes a new public enemy. The media chooses the reason most "abnormal" reason, and everyone jumps on (us vs them).

Pretty much correct, except you hit on something I forgot to mention:

When designing an Us vs. Them conflict, you want as much of your audience as possible to be the "Us", lest you lose the respect of an excessive number of your readers/viewers/developers because you just called them..."Them".

It's not just the media. It's basic social behavior.

We need a patch...

Yours Truly,

Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com

so who's fault is it? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464139)

Brazil blames the games, Rob blames the coke, the rest of you blame the guns. What the hell, I'll blame Bill Gates. Murder is nothing new. I don't recall Cain ever playing Doom, snorting coke, or owning a Smith and Wesson. Maybe I missed that chapter.

Where does this stop? (2)

CaptainSuperBoy (17170) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464140)

Some guy starts shooting people in the street, with one of those cool nerf guns. After a while he's arrested, and the officer sits him down.

Officer: Why did you do it?

Dude: Nerf Arena Blast made me do it.

Dude! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464141)

Cain didn't do coke!

He did crystal meth!

Re:A distracted soldier (1)

Snotboble_ (13797) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464142)

> Did you notice how that was, like, FICTION?!
> HELLO! Wake up you Brazilian freaks! I mean aren't you the ones doing those military experiments on people and stuff?

It's very simple: The Brazilian police and military hates competition.

Re:Gun control (1)

Snotboble_ (13797) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464143)

Well, you know, to some (both people and legislators), gun control is using both hands to hold it.

Re:More Info, an error... (1)

ralphclark (11346) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464144)

Brazil is one depraved country and Sao Paula is truly one of the most evil places on Earth. Apart from all the drug abuse that is.

Homeless orphaned children are routinely gunned down by policemen (the city authorities treat them as a pest). Child prostitution is rife - including children as young as nine or ten years of age. And young men pay plastic surgeons to mutilate them, turning them into "ladyboys" so they can earn more money as prostitutes.


It seems as if the whole country has adopted Rimbaud's nihilism: Nothing is forbidden, everything is permitted. The ultimate in liberalism. Some of you may recognise similarities to the Netherlands (particularly Amsterdam).

The people of that country have seriously lost their way and now their society bears many of the hallmarks some of us associate with hell itself. Will the West go the same way? Will we also, in the name of tolerance and political correctness, relinquish the right to judge others for their behaviour and/or morals?

The police and courts in Brazil will likely jump on game playing because it's practiced by too narrow a section of the population over there to have gained any political protection. Drugs and child prostitution, OTOH, are probably secretly encouraged by their corrupt politicians who derive both revenue and venal pleasure frm both.

Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction

Re:BRAZILisNUTS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464145)

Brazil nuts? Hell, in Alabama we call them "Nigger toes".

Re:Gun control (1)

morbid (4258) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464146)

That's a very Reagan-esque opinion.
We here in the UK have very strict gun control and a mulit-party democracy that is more varied and effective than that of the USA.

Guess what? Hardly anyone gets shot here, and those who do are usually just bigh-time drug dealers and gangsters.

One nutter went ape in a church recently with a samurai sword though.

People were critically injured, but no one died.
What if he'd been able to walk into a shop and buy a gun?

Yes, we have police armed response units, and if someone in the congregation had had a gun too, yadda yadda etc
.. but, if people don't carry guns, they can't just shoot someone who looked at them the wrong way or "called their pint a poof". Usually, the worst that comes of it is a bloody nose.

Free, unregulated possession of guns does not a democracy make. It makes for suspicion, fear and opression of one's fellow human being.

Re:On Fear And Understanding (1)

mpe (36238) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464147)

Short version:

Given:

Kid kills himself. Depressed for three reasons:

1) Lost his GF
2) Lost his Football Playability
3) Lost his D&D

There is also point 0 which has been missed, that is that the direct reason for the victims death was that they were driving a motor vehicle at the time.

and the moral of the story is... (1)

neko the frog (94213) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464148)

...never accomplish through analysis of a situation what you can cover up by a good knee-jerk reaction.

Re:On Fear And Understanding (2)

Effugas (2378) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464149)

There is also point 0 which has been missed, that is that the direct reason for the victims death was that they were driving a motor vehicle at the time.

Ah, but what are you gonna do, ban driving?

Now smoking's another story...lots of people don't smoke, go ban that...

Yours Truly,

Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com

Re:Really Arbitrary (1)

WowTIP (112922) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464150)

"I live... Again..." Puts a smile on my face every time... :)

From yahoo's story : "Duke Nukem and Doom have been designed by 3D Realms Co., Blood was made by GT Interactive Software Corp , Mortal Kombat was produced by Midway Games Inc , and Postal -- by Ripcord."

I thought DOOM was designed by Id software?

If A --> B and B --> C then A --> D, ban D. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464151)

This is so fucking sick. When I was in the army, we had this dude in our room who listened to all sorts of speed and death metal and the like, you know "ddddieeeee, kill muahghaghhu kill mghghhghm" sung with a low guzzling sound. We played beat-em-up Playstation games on our free time. We had some athlete types pumping creatine and some other shit (steroids?) before they went weightlifting. It was winter so we had people drinking cough syrup with DXM and very little sorbitol in it. We hated one of our trainers. So there were all the elements: violent music, "drugs", violent games, guns and hate.

Then we went shooting with assault rifles and live ammo. And guess what? Nobody got killed!

Had we played Doom or Quake or whatever, I don't think the situation would have changed, not one bit.

He copied the game to do his killing... (1)

ffatTony (63354) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464152)

If this is really true, someone hand me a BFG and I'll show 'em all. ha ha.

The above post was humorous... video games do not cause people to kill, perhaps the reverse is true, violent people are attracted to violent video games, thus they already possessed the desire before playing the game.

Get a clue brazil or the next time i'm playing x-pilot I'll make sure to bomb the hell out of your country.

Minor corrections (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464153)


1) This is a federal judge ruling. It will, probably, be overturned.

2) Some one here blamed guns for the shooting. The gun he was using is illegal here. So much for gun control.

Maybe they *know* these are old. (3)

urkidnme (114492) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464154)

Maybe they just banned these to quiet down the folks who must have something "external" to blame. Forcing retailers to remove these from the shelves probably didn't make many retailers too upset. They didn't make them do anything with Quake II, Quake III, Rainbow Six, Unreal, etc... This way, the gov't was able to do what gov'ts are good at. Satisfy the whining ignorant masses without upsetting the people with the bucks.

Evil burn the brain damaged justice here in Brazil (1)

galmeida (37917) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464155)

The police and justice here (I live in Sao Paulo - Brazil) are "TWO PIECES OF S**T", and if a crazy guy goes to a theater (the movie was Fight Club) with a Machine Gun and shoot lots of people, they have to do something just to "show" they're doing something. So what would be better than banning some old famous games they found at killer's house? (hey! it'll put then on TV!) If they try to ban some "new games" they'll make the big stores unhappy (who wants this ?).

In fact banning games will not stop people playing them. About 80% of the games here are pirated copies. Here, you easily can buy an "unoffical" game CD for R$10-R$15 (US$5-7) while the offical one may cost R$100 or more (US$50+)

PS.: when I say crazy guy I really means CRAZY (NUTS, BRAIN DAMAGED). The guy was under psycho treatment.

PS1: I don't think it's cool to buy or sell pirated games.
--
sorry about my poor spelling

/. is getting funny. (1)

Lalo Martins (2050) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464156)

<rant>
I'm Brazilian. I even live in São Paulo. I submitted this the day it happened. I was rejected. Now that it's old news, it gets posted.

I used to trust /. to inform me. Guess it's time to get on with my plan of a news site, now that I have the server.
</rant>

No, no comments on the story. I even have some, but I'm too disappointed to remember them.

Update (1)

Lalo Martins (2050) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464157)

Oh, actually I do have an update. They later added a lot of other games to the list, including Quake. Nice thing to do on the week before Xmas.

Violent Games (1)

equus (126690) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464158)

Anyone remember Bed Bugs - for the C64 I think.

Re:Update (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464159)

Do you have a list?

Some clarification (5)

KGBear (71109) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464160)

I live in Sao Paulo - Brasil; I see some of my countrymen have already replied to this but I wish to clarify a few things:
  1. The version of Carmageddon sold in Brazil is called "Armagedon", because the pun makes no sense in Portuguese. "Carmageddon" means absolutely nothing while Armagedon is a perfectly valid Portuguese word. Also, this game is from the times when companies still tried to translate game titles - nowadays they don't bother anymore partly because time time to market is everything and partly because when the games are officialy released here people have been playing them for a while, either downloading from the 'net or ordering a copy from some American Internet shop. Some game fans don't wait for the 2-3 monthes it takes to translate all the dialogs, user manual, etc.
  2. Some kinds of shooting are indeed (and sadly) common in the streets of Sao Paulo, but they're usually related to gang fights, "vigilantes" and organized crime. This case caught everyone's attention because the perpetrator is a med student with no involvement with those underworlds.
  3. Coke is not Brasil's #1 cash crop. Although we are an important part of the route drug follows to reach the US and Europe, it's actually grown in the bordering countries of Bolivia and Colombia. I also wish to remind you that the only reason the drug is grown and follows this route is because people at its destination will buy it.
  4. The weapon used is actually illegal here, which doesn't make it impossible to buy from black markets. Just like cocaine is illegal in the US, by the way.
  5. Yes, this ruling was made just to show the government is doing something, it's just a media stunt. Yes, it will probably be overruled by a superior court.
  6. Meira was not immobilized by guards while reloading, he was overtaken by the moviegoers when he ran out of amo. This is causing some protests against the mall administration.
  7. Finally, and more to the subject: all kinds of explanations were ventured by the media. One of the more stupid I've seen is he did it to emulate so many similar cases happening in the US, a kind of "wish to be in the 1st world". Games, drugs, everything is to blame. The fact the he had just interrupted drug treatment for his mental condition - against medical advice - was barely reported.

Whew. Sorry for the long post...

whata fag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464161)

Go home you rectum ranger.

Brazil and US (2)

Lemmy Caution (8378) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464162)

Of course this is a ridiculous over-reaction, and misguided as well as misapplied. Entirely in keeping with Brazil's governence-by-overreaction (there's an interesting situation regarding the issuance of travel visas that is largely a consequence of this attitude.)

However, let's put things in perspective - Brazil would never ban a game for nudity or sexual depictions. As wrong as this action is, it should be compared with American tolerance - even mainstream celebration - of hardcore violence, couple with their puritanical fear of sexuality (as if people aren't supposed to be sexual before the age 21!) Despite the wrongheadedness of the approach, I think Brazil has its priorities right.

Coincidentally enough, I'm in Rio do Janeiro at the moment.

What else is new... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464163)

More clueless, uninformed clowns in places of power making decisions they are not even remotely qualified to make. That's my definition of government and again it applies..

Re:More Info, an error... (4)

Molina the Bofh (99621) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464164)

>Is Brazil's game market just behind the times and these games are the new ones there,
> or are they just banning the violent games that this man had in his possession?


I live in Brazil, and we are not so behind the times. Games and movies usually arrive here about one or two monthes after being released in US.

What I believe is that these may be the only games some judge or other bureaucrat may have heard of.

And frankly speaking, I think it's ridiculous to ban these games!! First of all there are much more realistic and violent games (such as Half-life), where you kill persons, not only monsters, wich, I guess, makes a huge difference from the psychological point of view. In Duken Nuken you kill monsters, instead of people !

Another thing: I read here in Slashdot they said the sicko was being treated for stress. That's not true. He was being treated for schizophrenia, and his doctor told his family he should not live unattended. But they left him living alone.

And this case had so much repercussion in the press because it was the first time in Brazil a psycho goes to a public place and starts shooting people without having a reason.

Re:More Info, an error... (1)

qazwsx (78379) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464165)

Of course you has been living in Brazil and seeing all of that in the streets everyday, right?

Give me a break. I live in Brazil and I can assure you that where I'm living is a lovely place.

I went a few times to the USA, and I was really afrait of all the violence I could see on the streets.

The americans are very funny, they are quick to complain about other countries and can't accept they have they own problems!

If they at least allowed us to sell some of our best industrial goods to them to allow us get some dollars to pay our debts with IMF... It's hard to get enough dollars selling only commodities, and that way we can't give better conditions to our people.

Re:Zany Brazilians? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1464166)

"I might also add that I'm personally quite happy about the non-smoking laws as I quite hate cigarette/cigar smoke"

Good. I hope you'll be just as happy when we get cars banned for personal use. They kill people and cause air pollution too after all. And I hate them.

Banning products because someone doesn't like them or is competing with their own product is really, really, bad news. I hope you like the world where all movies are from Disney, all stores sell only low-fat goop, and all OS's are Windows, cause that's where we're headed. Fast.

Nope. (1)

LinuxGeek (6139) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464167)

Why are you asking for confirmation of your questions? Either you know why you think and believe the way you do or you are just parroting something taught by others. Consensus doesn't mean correct.

The theme presented in the article is that some Brazilian officials believe that the games had some influence on the man. That Brazilian officials were most probably ( I can't know for sure ) motivated by their fear of the press. The people in the theater just want to know why some unstable freak was allowed to kill them without provocation.

My belief is that different people have different weaknesses. This fellow may have had a weakness for believing that aliens were attacking Brazil and needed to be stopped. I know people that have had weaknesses for ladies other than their wives, alcohol, drugs and money. Some of them no longer have to worry about their wives ( or their houses, cars, etc..) or their old jobs. Just because one person has a weakness dosen't mean that everyone has the same problem.

Your question: "However, will someone admit that by playing something like Quake, the player's aim in reality may be improved?"

This question probably seems valid if someone hasn't fired a gun. Its more like assuming that someone who has played TombRaider must be able to swim because Lara goes swimming in each game. Or that someone must be able to ride a bicycle because they watched re-runs of The Brady Bunch(tm) or be able to play basketball because they are tall.

Moving a dot around and clicking a mouse button aren't the same thing as firing a real weapon. The games help some people to improve their hand & eye coordination.

And about your "Can we keep saying that computer games, or violent movies, or X are 100% completely innocent? How about 99.99% innocent?" questions.

How can a game be guilty or innocent? If a book describes a bank robbery, is the book guilty of something? A person can be guilty or innocent but not an object. If this were not the case, then my car would be the one guilty of speeding, not me.

People make choices everyday. I usually choose between lunch choices, but I have never chosen to kill someone. Some people have chosen to take the life of another person. The killer made that choice, it didn't just happen without any responsibility.

Re:insert foot into mouth... (3)

Roblimo (357) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464168)

Excuse me. Slashdot reader "Captain Carrot" wrote that. The words you see in a Slashdot article in italics, surrounded by quotation marks, are verbatim from the reader who submitted the story.

Sometimes I agree with what a reader says in a submission, sometimes I don't. In this case, I think Captain Carrot made a valid point: that the Brazilian government was blaming video games for violence done by a person who had other influences in his life that were at least as likely to have caused him to start shooting strangers as game playing. Like cocaine use, for example. Or perhaps it was bad American sitcoms, as you suggested. ;\)

If our friend Captain Carrot had chosen to say, "It's about time some government had the guts to ban some of the violence-spawning computer games that Satan has unleashed on society. Too bad it was Brazil, not the U.S., that took this courageous moral stand," I probably would have run that verbatim, just as I ran the comments he did make - and I would have taken plenty of heat for letting someone express an unpopular opinion. (Or at least an opinion that is unpopular among Slashdot readers, who are not exactly a representative sample of the world's population.)

Please try to remember, when you read Slashdot, that many/most of the opinions you see are those of other readers, that the Slashdot editor who posted them may not agree with them, and that any words written by a Slashdot author or editor are always clearly separated from those of the reader who submitted a given story.

As far as Katz, his take on this *would* be interesting, wouldn't it? But he chooses his own topics, so we'll just have to wait and see if he decides to pick up on this one.

- Robin

Re:A distracted soldier (1)

qazwsx (78379) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464169)

> I mean aren't you the ones doing those military experiments on people and stuff? Sheesh!

Where did you get this???

Oh, and are you able to point me where Brazil is in the World Map? I'm just curious...

Re:Gun control (1)

Fross (83754) | more than 14 years ago | (#1464170)

We here in the UK have very strict gun control and a mulit-party democracy that is more varied and effective than that of the USA.

Guess what? Hardly anyone gets shot here, and those who do are usually just bigh-time drug dealers and gangsters.

One nutter went ape in a church recently with a samurai sword though.


i dont like this implication much - it sounds to me like it's condoning a ban on samurai swords, for instance.
(which was the immediate reaction of the media upon the release of this story, of course *sigh*)

if he hadn't been able to get a samurai sword, he'd have probably used a cleaver, kitchen knife, giant toothpick, whatever. the sword isn't the problem, it didn't imbue him with a demonic possession that caused him to go out ans alughter people. the basic of the situation is, that he was nutso.

i think all this media/government action scapegoating anything vaguelly "unusual" about the crime (role playing games, weaponry, being a 'goth', playing video games, etc) is essentially a refusal to acknowledge the underlying problem of violence and hatred.

in an ideal world, there could be guns and swords and violent video games everywhere, but no-one would want to kill each other.

at the other extreme, where anything even vaguelly sharp is hidden away... so what, people will club each other to death with dead puppies if they want to.

i'm ambivalent about the effects of exposing impressionable young children to violence, whether it be video games, tv programs, or what have you. i'd say desensitisation is an issue. but any rational adult who knows right from wrong can differentiate between the two. anyone who's had kids can probably testify you have to teach them that hitting people is wrong, as they'll likely try it at some point.

but getting back on topic for a moment (ha), while violent video games should be kept away from very young, impressionable minds, anyone who is able to differentiate reality from fantasy should be allowed to do so.

ObTechnology: as Doom was released to shareware, would downloading it in brazil be considered an offence, or does the ban only cover its *sale*?

fross

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