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Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Announced

CowboyNeal posted more than 7 years ago | from the roll-for-initiative dept.

Role Playing (Games) 463

bigstrat2003 writes "For the past day, Wizards of the Coast has had a countdown to "4dventure" on their web site. The countdown ran out at 6:30 eastern time today (and the web site promptly crashed), but stories are already appearing on the rest of the web. Wizards also has had their 4th edition forums up for a couple of days."

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A CHINK ATE MY BALLS (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256445)

Oh yeah, you can laugh, but you haven't experienced the pain of having your balls eaten by an elite, highly-trained killer nip. I remember distinctly, I awoke on a sweaty, balmy night, strangely unable to move but with a peculiar sensation around my groin area. It stang so badly that I threw back the covers and found a yellow devil staring up at me, his evil slitty eyes staring up at me as he chewed on my balls, laughing as his teeth tore them from their fleshy housing and gulped noisily as my spunk-filled sacks disappeared down his yellow gullet never to be seen again. Weakened, I was unable to do anything as he made his escape but call 911.

The doctors did a pretty good job of patching me up, you can hardly see the scarring on my now-empty scrotum, especially as my relatively-huge western cock hangs enormous but now sadly impotent in front of it, but the fact remains that a chink actually ate my balls. Tell me, what is the woefully ineffective Democratic Senate going to do about these homosexually-motivated cannibalistic attacks by these slim-dicked rice-wogs on our throbbing Western members?

We need to establish a system of internment camps for gays and ethnic minorities, and fast, lest you or your children be next to fall victim to these sexually sadistic slant-eyes.

STAND UP FOR YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL NUT-RIGHTS, AMERICA!
WE SHALL NOT FALL TO THE GAY YELLOW BALL-MENACE!

Re:A CHINK ATE MY BALLS (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256477)

Child torture is my Lifestyle

Re:A CHINK ATE MY BALLS (1, Insightful)

SuperRenaissanceMan (1027668) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256479)

I think it might be a first: An anonymous coward, posting racial slurs, who openly admits that he has no balls. Truth in advertising at long last?

Re:A CHINK ATE MY BALLS (0, Offtopic)

EdBear69 (823550) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256523)

Whatever happened to just posting "FRIST POST!!!1!" ?

When did we devolve to this level of inanery?

Maybe I'm stuck in dreams of a past utopia that never was, but in any case, I feel old and slightly soiled now.

Re:A CHINK ATE MY BALLS (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20257257)

> When did we devolve to this level of inanery?

"Welcome to Slashdot!"

If he'd written it about a gelatinous cube eating his balls, he'd have earned the elusive "Keyboard of First Posting +5". The trick is to come up with a cliche that's actually on topic. He almost got it.

Re:A CHINK ATE MY BALLS (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256781)

Who's the guy who keeps modding offtopic? Yeah, the parent poster deserves it, but if you reply to an offtopic post, doesn't that make you immune to further offtopic modding? I mean, you're on the original offtopic's topic, therefore on topic on a microscopic scale (whereas the parent, being the first to turn to the offtopic side, is offtopic on a macroscopic scale). If it doesn't make you immune to subsequent offtopic mods, it should.

Stand up for the rights of offtopic repliers!

Re:A CHIN ATE MY BALLS (0, Redundant)

said213 (72685) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256955)

were you aiming for a funny mod?

Re:A CHIN ATE MY BALLS (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20257205)

No. I want one offtopic and six underrateds.

So good it deserves a repost (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256455)

A few years ago, while browsing around the library downtown, I had to take a piss. As I entered the john a big beautiful all-American football hero type, about twenty-five, came out of one of the booths. I stood at the urinal looking at him out of the corner of my eye as he washed his hands. He didn't once look at me. He was "straight" and married - and in any case I was sure I wouldn't have a chance with him.

As soon as he left I darted into the booth he'd vacated, hoping there might be a lingering smell of shit and even a seat still warm from his sturdy young ass. I found not only the smell but the shit itself. He'd forgotten to flush. And what a treasure he had left behind. Three or four beautiful specimens floated in the bowl. It apparently had been a fairly dry, constipated shit, for all were fat, stiff, and ruggedly textured. The real prize was a great feast of turd - a nine inch gastrointestinal triumph as thick as a man's wrist.

I knelt before the bowl, inhaling the rich brown fragrance and wondered if I should obey the impulse building up inside me. I'd always been a heavy rimmer and had lapped up more than one little clump of shit, but that had been just an inevitable part of eating ass and not an end in itself. Of course I'd had jerk-off fantasies of devouring great loads of it (what rimmer hasn't), but I had never done it. Now, here I was, confronted with the most beautiful five-pound turd I'd ever feasted my eyes on, a sausage fit to star in any fantasy and one I knew to have been hatched from the asshole of the world's handsomest young stud.

Why not? I plucked it from the bowl, holding it with both hands to keep it from breaking. I lifted it to my nose. It smelled like rich, ripe limburger (horrid, but thrilling), yet had the consistency of cheddar. What is cheese anyway but milk turning to shit without the benefit of a digestive tract?

I gave it a lick and found that it tasted better then it smelled. I've found since then that shit nearly almost does.

I hesitated no longer. I shoved the fucking thing as far into my mouth as I could get it and sucked on it like a big brown cock, beating my meat like a madman. I wanted to completely engulf it and bit off a large chunk, flooding my mouth with the intense, bittersweet flavor. To my delight I found that while the water in the bowl had chilled the outside of the turd, it was still warm inside. As I chewed I discovered that it was filled with hard little bits of something I soon identified as peanuts. He hadn't chewed them carefully and they'd passed through his body virtually unchanged. I ate it greedily, sending lump after peanutty lump sliding scratchily down my throat. My only regret was the donor of this feast wasn't there to wash it down with his piss.

I soon reached a terrific climax. I caught my cum in the cupped palm of my hand and drank it down. Believe me, there is no more delightful combination of flavors than the hot sweetness of cum with the rich bitterness of shit.

Afterwards I was sorry that I hadn't made it last longer. But then I realized that I still had a lot of fun in store for me. There was still a clutch of virile turds left in the bowl. I tenderly fished them out, rolled them into my handkerchief, and stashed them in my briefcase. In the week to come I found all kinds of ways to eat the shit without bolting it right down. Once eaten it's gone forever unless you want to filch it third hand out of your own asshole. Not an unreasonable recourse in moments of desperation or simple boredom.

I stored the turds in the refrigerator when I was not using them but within a week they were all gone. The last one I held in my mouth without chewing, letting it slowly dissolve. I had liquid shit trickling down my throat for nearly four hours. I must have had six orgasms in the process.

I often think of that lovely young guy dropping solid gold out of his sweet, pink asshole every day, never knowing what joy it could, and at least once did, bring to a grateful shiteater.

Re:So good it deserves a repost (-1, Offtopic)

Corpuscavernosa (996139) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256525)

Ok, yeah that was clearly offtopic, but I remember reading that in college back in the 90s and laughing and dry-heaving so hard that I almost puked. Perhaps not the proper forum, but in a disgusting way, I'm glad that crept back into my life. A quick dry-heave, some laugher, and some hilarious memories of me, my roommates, and anyone else we could convince to read it... please don't kill my karma any more than it already is!

Oh and I can't wait to see the new D&D!

I knew if I waited long enough... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256467)

Yahoo!

*dances around happy because he held out from buying 3.5 books*

Re:I knew if I waited long enough... (1)

PresidentEnder (849024) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256493)

Ya know, calling it 3.5 was a good idea. Maybe it will shut up that annoying guy who kept writing letters to Dragon about how Wizards was evil for releasing new editions. The ".5" implies that it was intermediate.

Re:I knew if I waited long enough... (1)

cyphercell (843398) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256683)

And it was indeed intermediate, I remember the conversion sheets, the day they came out, they weren't that big. And they were available before the books came out.

Re:I knew if I waited long enough... (5, Funny)

Arthur Grumbine (1086397) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256697)

I think that I am (rolls a d20)...happy for this news.

Re:I knew if I waited long enough... (5, Funny)

Surt (22457) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256895)

Come on, this deserves positive moderation for the oblique futurama/gygax reference:

                        GYGAX
                                                  Greetings! It's a ... (rolls dice) ... pleasure
                                                  to meet you!

http://www.imsdb.com/transcripts/Futurama-Anthlogy -Of-Interest-I.html [imsdb.com]

Re:I knew if I waited long enough... (5, Funny)

NosTROLLdamus (979044) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257013)

I don't think he meant for him to be modded funny...

Re:I knew if I waited long enough... (5, Funny)

Arthur Grumbine (1086397) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257023)

Hey, WTF!! He was talking about my post! Not his own! I'm the one that needs validation, not him!!
*shakes his fist at the gods of moderation*

cumming in ya bum (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256511)

Dead Nigger child-sex

Why did the site crash? (4, Informative)

tonsofpcs (687961) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256515)

Well, I left the countdown running on my computer, when it ran out, it auto refreshed and showed me the new page. Maybe a few thousand other people did the same. Anyway, the site looks quite different now, and seems to have a lot of new content, although I can't navigate it (the server being down and all). the coral cache [nyud.net] does work though (at least it was around 8pm).

Re:Why did the site crash? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256639)

They failed on their save vs. nerds roll.

I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (5, Insightful)

thesymbolicfrog (907527) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256529)

First they cancel the popular and successful Dungeon and Dragon magazines by not renewing the subscription with Paizo, and next they pull a stunt like this? I don't believe I'm the only one to find the DRM-laden "Digital Initiative" to be potentially a very poor substitute for the magazines, and this blunder will only compound the ill will directed against them.


This move will only alienate their consumer base. The fact that 3.5 is working, and in no need of overhaul, exposes the fact that they are doing this under the motivation of short-sighted greed. I shudder to think what sort of backlash (as before with Dungeon and Dragon were canceled) is taking place on the forum.


I'm literally in shock right now. I thought Wizards of the Coast understood its consumer base better and was comprised of people more concerned about the integrity of the game and more competent about long-term business strategies.

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256595)

nerd

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (2, Informative)

porl (932021) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256773)

um... slashdot, remember?

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (3, Insightful)

jaseparlo (819802) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256603)

FWIW my favourite version is still the old Basic/Expert/Companion version - the technical parts intruded less on the role playing, and you didn't need to by loads of stuff to get going. Advanced that came out around the same time was OK, you could get going with three books at least, but you got caught up in stats and dice rolls and technical aspects of the game. I thought the version 3 upgrade was mostly about selling books, let alone a new upgrade. The integrity went once the game was sold to WOTC really.

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (5, Funny)

Hawthorne01 (575586) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256965)

Bah! Back in my day, we just had Greyhawk! And we liked it! You kids and your fancy-schmansy role-playing games these days! Back in my day, the nearest store that sold polyhedral was a four-day walk from my house! Uphill! Both ways! In the snow! You kids have it easy these days!

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (5, Funny)

Nazlfrag (1035012) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257159)

Bah! You think that was hard, do ya sonnyjim? Back in my day, the only polyhedral die were marbles, and we didn't have no fancy books, just stone tablets. Of course, we had knights and dragons back then too, which made things easier in some ways. Didn't need an imagination, for starters.

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (1)

dreamchaser (49529) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256629)

I've never bought one of their products. I stuck with 1st/2nd Edition hybrid+house rules. I've yet to see WotC do anything worth purchasing, unless I was out of paper to wrap fish with or something I suppose.

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (1)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256699)

That's a matter of opinion on the rules more than anything else. I hate 2nd ed rules, so just for making D&D a game I'd be willing to play, WotC rules the world in my book. (Note that I'm not trying to turn this into a "which edition is better?" debate, just saying that they did do a major update with 3rd ed, which is either good or bad depending on who you ask)

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256647)

I played D&D in the transition of the 1st and 2nd edition, and I think the reason they release new versions even when the old ones are working is to stabilize things. Dragon Mag articles, supplements, special rules in modules, house rules, con rules, third party rules, and so on eventually made the game kind of a mess. I look on a new release like a "STABLE" branch in software - it's a way to allow flexibility, but occasionally fold the results back into the core.

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (2, Informative)

cyphercell (843398) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256737)

I played 2nd edition, first edition cyclopedia, 3rd edition, and I've been interested in Open Game Licensing since around 3.5 I have visited the thread yet, but here's a link.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?s=a7885fd 86618b84315bbfab43af9fe41&t=905801 [gleemax.com]

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256743)

"The fact that 3.5 is working, and in no need of overhaul"

Clearly you've not noticed how horribly broken some of the 3.5 rules are. Check out some DnD forums and you might be surprised.

When a first level character can literally do infinite damage every turn, I think you're in need of a rules overhaul.

That's called 'Bad GMing' (2, Informative)

Elemenope (905108) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256885)

Most rules books for RPGs explicitly say 'these rules only at the discretion of the GM', and they are right to do so. If a character is doing infinite damage every turn due to munchkining and slavish and/or badly twisted interpretations of some rules set, the GM is not doing his/her job, period. My favorite D&D system was 3rd ed, right out of the box (well, corebooks); needed few dice, easily scalable, removed most of the cruft from prior eds, and was easy to ad hoc or homebrew rules. When a book rule gave a counterintuitive mechanic for something, I or whoever else was GMing would craft a house rule that worked better. I have found that so long as the players trust that you are being fair and attempting for a fun game, they tend not to be crummy sports about the rules.

Re:That's called 'Bad GMing' (1)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256979)

If a character is doing infinite damage every turn... the GM is not doing his/her job, period.
Heh heh heh... if I were a DM, I'd allow that. Unless my other players complained about it, of course. I'd think it was hilarious. Really, it's about what you want out of the game. But you are right in saying that if you have a problem with the rule balance, then change the rules to fix it. The DM's discretion, not Wizards', is final.

Re:That's called 'Bad GMing' (1)

TaoPhoenix (980487) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257001)

Fascinating comment compared to their other lead flagship that allowed them to buy D&D at all.
In the Magic world, they did whatever they wanted and/or had to, to declare a central ruleset. There are no house rules at sanctioned events. Also, no turning back the clock. No "ditching all the new sets and playing like it's 1993".

I really expect that a movement will grow that will adhere closely to their 4th ed. rules as the central corpus. I expect Wizards to forcefully deprecate any prior version. However, the consequences of this are thunderingly unclear.

Re:That's called 'Bad GMing' (3, Insightful)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257031)

Not really. The difference between D&D, and Magic, is that people (as far as I know) don't play D&D in any sort of tournaments. If there were WotC-run D&D tournaments, they'd be within their rights to specify which version of the rules were used. You have to have a level playing field.

D&D, on the other hand, is played by small groups of people, rather than in tournaments. There's nothing they could do to stop house rules if they tried. Similarly, there's nothing they could do to stop house rules in Magic if they tried, as long as you're not talking about a sanctioned tournament.

Re:That's called 'Bad GMing' (2, Funny)

mazarin5 (309432) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257203)

Of course people play at tournaments! [youtube.com]

Re:That's called 'Bad GMing' (1)

bladesjester (774793) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257223)

The difference between D&D, and Magic, is that people (as far as I know) don't play D&D in any sort of tournaments.

Unless you count D&D minis, and then there are quite a few tournies. But for standard D&D rpg? I just can't see a tournament working.

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (2, Interesting)

Planesdragon (210349) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256865)

I'm literally in shock right now. I thought Wizards of the Coast understood its consumer base better and was comprised of people more concerned about the integrity of the game and more competent about long-term business strategies.

They are. Go over to enworld.org and read the information.

3e was a much-needed refresh. 3.5 was a patch. 3.5 + all the cruft is an unstable, annoying, POS that I haven't played in years. Not because the game has gotten worse, but because a better game is so easy to make.

4e is necessary, and if they do it right I might just come back into the fold.

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (1)

smartr (1035324) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256959)

The rules could use more of the core simplifications that 3e did to 2e. It also is interesting to see that they're going to apply Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed style races, and apply it to the core D&D races. I wonder how much they'll take from his much better scaled magic system... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcana_Unearthed [wikipedia.org] Yes, you heard me, more powerful base races with advanced levels... It's coming in 4e. Maybe the plan was something like, Step 1: make things uncomfortable for top developers. Step 2: Wait for them to develop stuff on the OGL. Step 3: Steal it... I mean legally use the OGL. Step 4: Profit.

Re:I'm not buying any more WoTC products... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256919)

I'm literally in shock right now.

I hope you're near a hospital. Do you want me to call 911 for you?

Or perhaps find a dictionary so you can look up "literally"?

Well at least the "news for nerds" part is back (5, Funny)

Liquidrage (640463) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256551)

A front page D&D news story. That's gotta be hard to top.

Re:Well at least the "news for nerds" part is back (5, Funny)

jimbug (1119529) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256627)

I'm posting this with my level 20 monk.

Re:Well at least the "news for nerds" part is back (1)

porl (932021) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256803)

damn straight! those other classes with their fancy "weapons" and trinkets an such.... bah! a good punch in the groin from a high level monk is all you need in almost any battle! :)

Re:Well at least the "news for nerds" part is back (2, Funny)

adelord (816991) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256911)

Cheater, I know you faked most of those experience points! You are so out of our playgroup! You'll never run a character in one of my games again!

Re:Well at least the "news for nerds" part is back (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256667)

A front page D&D news story. That's gotta be hard to top.


You misspelled advertisement.

Re:Well at least the "news for nerds" part is back (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256729)

A topper to that might be something like...

"Natalie Portman prefers hot grits. NAKED."

Yea, that might bring back that old /. nostalgia....

Re:Well at least the "news for nerds" part is back (1)

porl (932021) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256825)

i think a 'natalie portman up for auction on ebay' might have a larger effect though :)

SPOILER!!!1!! (-1, Flamebait)

Stormwatch (703920) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256609)

Tiamat killed Dumbledore!

That probably signifies the end of new books (2, Interesting)

bigtangringo (800328) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256653)

I own damn near every 3.5 book there is. I haven't looked too much into the "new version" but I have no intention to replace the books I own. If the "new version" is mostly moot, as far as system changes, then I'll continue to buy their books.

Given that the system is fairly hashed out, I don't see much reason to change.

Re:That probably signifies the end of new books (1)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256725)

I saw something saying that anything coming out between now and 4th ed (besides things which were already in the pipeline, I imagine) will be written in such a way that you could use them with either version. Either that means that they're not planning on having anything in the way of game mechanics in those books, or that 4th ed isn't going to change much.

old news (3, Insightful)

DreadSpoon (653424) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256909)

People said the same damn thing about D&D, and then AD&D, and then second edition AD&D, and then D&D 3.0. "I'm not buying the new edition, I wasted more money than I can count on these [lame-ass over-priced useless] source books!"

A year or two after the new edition was out, they all usually break down and buy the new edition, sell off their old books to collectors or hobby stores, and move on.

Or you can be one of those old foggies who swears by the old edition, never upgrades, and then runs out of people to play with. But then, if you honestly bought every single 3.5 source book (seriously, why the hell would you possibly need all of those?), I imagine you have bigger problems than finding people to play with.

Website Down (5, Funny)

JezTheBandit (1143783) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256657)

So how much xp do we get for killing the website?

Re:Website Down (2, Funny)

Jarjarthejedi (996957) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256715)

10,000 xp since it was CR 40.
-20,000 xp since the DM didn't want you to kill it this early in the campaign, it was supposed to return for an epic battle around the time of 4.5, then a final confrontation when 5 came out. Now the DM's stuck trying to figure out a new arch-villain for the rest of the campain.

Re:Website Down (2, Funny)

jombeewoof (1107009) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256779)

Any DM worth his dice would find a way to bring the server back online.

Re:Website Down (4, Funny)

Nephilium (684559) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256815)

Or use the classic:

Rocks fall. Everyone dies!

Nephilium

Re:Website Down (1)

jombeewoof (1107009) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256935)

I used to hate it so much when my DM did that.
Until I started DMing, then I loved the reaction from players.

Re:Website Down (1)

daft_one (532587) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256805)

None, but there's mad RP points in it for defecating on the server!

Re:Website Down (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256817)

Internet Information Server

Climate/Terrain: Windows
Frequency: Common
Organization: Solitary or cluster
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: RAM
Intelligence: Non- (0)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Chaotic evil
No. Appearing: 1-1,000,000
Armor Class: 9
Movement: 1
Hit Dice: 2
THACO: 20
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 1-4
Special Attacks: Crashing
Special Defenses: Nil
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: L
Morale: Unreliable (2)
XP Value: 12

First edition forever! (4, Insightful)

mark-t (151149) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256663)

I had to try 3e when it came out... I figured it was really cool that my favorite RPG was getting a facelift, as I was never really satisfied with the 2nd edition rules. But alas, after trying it out and playing it for a few weeks I concluded that it was a big mistake to have sold all my 2e stuff to finance the purchasing of 3rd edition material. 3rd edition D&D was not a role playing game as I understood it... it was basically just a pen-and-paper version of a computer game, requiring a ridiculous amount of number crunching and bean counting. Suddenly every single thing that a character was supposedly able to do was governed by a skill associated with a number... taking away a vital element of creativity that in my opinion is a vital core of any real RPG. Rather than trying to reacquire the 2nd edition stuff I formerly had, however, I decided instead to go all the way back to the beginning (well, almost) and go with first edition AD&D, because the number of books published for it was small enough that it wouldn't completely break my pocketbook to get them all. I spent a couple of weeks hunting for bargains on ebay and eventually got all the hardcover rulebooks for the game. I bought pdf's of modules through rpgnow, and I was good to go. I have now have a group of 4 players, and we play weekly.

Fans of 1st edition AD&D, check out the Dragonsfoot web site [dragonsfoot.org] . 2nd edition is well received there too.

Speak it, my brother! (1)

Infonaut (96956) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256789)

3rd edition D&D was not a role playing game as I understood it... it was basically just a pen-and-paper version of a computer game, requiring a ridiculous amount of number crunching and bean counting. Suddenly every single thing that a character was supposedly able to do was governed by a skill associated with a number.

So true. IMO, the profusion of classes, monster types, feats, and other additions were really just an excuse to keep pumping out new rules supplements. Rather than fostering creative roleplay, for a long time D&D has fostered hack & slash gaming.

For my money, the game system that best fostered role play and realism was RuneQuest 2. The game system was easy to learn, lean and mean, and the Glorantha setting was developed in a way that filled in many details while leaving room for plenty of GM and player creativity. Then Avalon Hill got a hold of the game, and the third version headed downhill. The recently-released Mongoose Publishing version is even worse. It's sad to see such a great game fall into such a state of disrepair.

Yes, I realize most Slashdotters have no idea what RQ 2 is, but please allow us dottering oldsters our reminiscing.

Re:Speak it, my brother! (1)

Nephilium (684559) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256849)

Hmmm... my favorite systems to play under (in no particular order) were:

The Morrow Project
Feng Shui
Call of Cthulhu
Earthdawn (Yes... I liked the fact that a windling could kill a dragon if they were damned lucky!)
Mechwarrior
Mage

I never got a chance to play RuneQuest... but I will say I hate all RoleMaster system games with a never ending passion...

Nephilium

Re:Speak it, my brother! (1)

Infonaut (96956) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257009)

I never got a chance to play RuneQuest... but I will say I hate all RoleMaster system games with a never ending passion...

Cthulhu uses the same underlying game mechanics. Gotta love a game where your favorite PC stories are about how your character turned into a gibbering idiot. Chaosium has put out some great stuff in their time.

I bought The Morrow Project but never could convince anyone to play it. Perhaps the fact that we were so firmly entrenched in Aftermath! had something to do with it. Talk about a game for geeks. Three hours to resolve a combat scene involving four or five PCs and a like number of bad guys.

I also bought Earthdawn and really liked a lot of the concepts in it (not surprising because I played Shadowrun for a few years). It looked like a well-balanced game, but I never found anyone who was playing it.

Another vote for Runequest. (1)

khasim (1285) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256933)

Runequest - where you can play a duck.

Forget the ducks. You can play a baboon.

Don't forget the "cults". When choosing a religion MEANS something to your character.

Yep. When Avalon Hill got it, they ruined it. Particularly if you've ever read the errata for their stuff. Lunar sorcery beats everything.

Battle magic was the best idea ever. And their hit chart was great, too. Lose a leg in combat? Well you're out of the fight (unless you're a scorpion man). But if your teammates surrender soon enough (and the enemy accepts surrender), you can be healed. Finally a combat system that doesn't encourage "fight to our last breath" scenes.

Re:Speak it, my brother! (1)

Hawthorne01 (575586) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257007)

Well, from a pure game mechanics point of view, I thought Victory Games' "James Bond 007" game was *outstanding*: It was easy-to-understand yet complex and open-ended and really allowed you to get into the spirit and flow of a Bond movie/book. And of course for sheer flexibility, it's either GURPS or The Hero System (flamewar in 3...2....1...) :-). An underappreciated system, IMO, was Traveller 2300: Nice and light with a great setting.

Re:Speak it, my brother! (1)

Infonaut (96956) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257051)

GURPS or The Hero System

GURPS definitely had it for flexibility. I thought the Hero System tended to create really quirky characters, but I suppose that's part of its charm. I'd give Hero System the nod for encouraging roleplaying, and GURPS for breadth.

Traveller 2300 was a fun game too. I really got a kick out of the future history they created for it, and it was more fun than regular Traveller in my opinion. Then again, you have to love the compact form of the original Traveller books. Perfect for a quick pick-up game.

I never played James Bond 007. How would you to compare it to Top Secret in terms of game flow?

Re:Speak it, my brother! (1)

sgant (178166) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257231)

my friends and I played Fantasy Hero and Danger International all the time. You do get some pretty quirky characters, which was great for our group.

Our favorite was Call of Cthulhu though...by far. I never played it when it converted to d20 though.

Re:Speak it, my brother! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20257235)

A lot of good games from the 80s got bought up and turned into rule bound nightmares. The secret is that the original rules systems were abstractions, realism wasn't given much consideration.

Just look at an old "Murphy's Rules" for some examples of applying rules from ANY of those games without a GM with commons sense. You get: infants that can throw a football 100 yds, people who can hold their breath for 20 minutes, normal people who can survive having a limb torn off and still being able to move around with no ill effect, and so on. You could also munchkin out and have invulnerability, infinite damage, 1st level spells that were more effective than 9th level spells, no insta-kill sling bullets, and all that.

Realism shouldn't be a consideration for anything but a tactical wargame IMO. I developed my GMing style from the limitation of playing between classes or on the bus home - so rolling dice became a "cliffhanger". The players and I both recognized that going to the dice meant stopping the story, so even when we played evenings or weekends we could go an entire session and spend maybe 5% of our time rolling dice and figuring results.

I don't want to sound too much like some old man pining for the good ole days, but I think getting too caught up in the structure of the rules misses the point of an RPG. It's cooperative, structured storytelling. It's make believe with rules.

Re:First edition forever! (1)

the_ed_dawg (596318) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257085)

Suddenly every single thing that a character was supposedly able to do was governed by a skill associated with a number... taking away a vital element of creativity that in my opinion is a vital core of any real RPG.

...only if your DM wants it to be. We regularly play fast and loose with the rules, allowing us to spend more time with the role-playing aspect.

Re:First edition forever! (1)

deniable (76198) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257135)

OSRIC [knights-n-knaves.com] is trying to replicate 1st ed with OGL material. I've not given it a good look because AD&D isn't my thing.

Re:First edition forever! (1)

Acer500 (846698) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257249)

3rd edition D&D was not a role playing game as I understood it... it was basically just a pen-and-paper version of a computer game, requiring a ridiculous amount of number crunching and bean counting.
My feelings exactly. I'm not an RPG fan, but I do have some books and computer games and I play WOTC's other money-sucking game (Magic: The Gathering)... and the 3rd edition game stuck me as impossible to manage with just pen and paper...

Fortunately there are several cool games based on the D&D rules engine which I enjoyed a lot because I wasn't stuck with the pen-and-paper stats management (see: Bioware).

I am really pissed off. (1)

Sniper223 (1140179) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256681)

The last couple of years I have spent around a thousand dollars updating my books from AD&D 2nd Edition to D&D 3.5 and now they decide to release 4th Edition...

Re:I am really pissed off. (2, Funny)

jombeewoof (1107009) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256755)

I lost interest when they started coming out with all the specialized books for the various specialties.
When I realized I had more money tied up in D&D than I had in my stereo and computer systems combined I decided to quit cold turkey.
And I realized trying to get a game of D&D together when you're 19 is a pretty sad thing. Everyone else with their girls and drugs and booze, and me with my Horseshoes of a Zeyphr, and bag of holding.

Re:I am really pissed off. (2, Insightful)

KTheorem (999253) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256771)

When 4th Edition comes out it will have been about 8 years since the 3rd edition books came out. Being mad because they were inconsiderate enough to release a new set of rules after that length of time seems a bit silly to me. Especially since the new edition coming out in no way makes the version you have less fun to play.

How come you aren't pissed that they made a 3rd Edition in the first place? How dare they give you a new system to use!

Re:I am really pissed off. (1)

Sniper223 (1140179) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256823)

Ok so you have valid points but come on! How long after I buy the fourth edition books until they upgrade to 4.5 and I am once again stuck with obsolete material?

Re:I am really pissed off. (1)

Sniper223 (1140179) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256855)

Also, 3.5 was released in July 2003 so it hasn't been 8 years.

Re:I am really pissed off. (1)

KTheorem (999253) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256893)

I don't really consider 3rd and 3.5 to be much different, but even if 3.5 is considered to be completely separate from 3rd then it will still be very close to 5 years since any major revision or change.

Re:I am really pissed off. (1)

Atlantis1982 (1131649) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257081)

No way i'm rebuying the core books again, I got the 3.5 edition books and quite happy with them. Now I just need people to play DnD. :(

Please God! Let it kill DDO. (3, Insightful)

dameron (307970) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256703)

That would be a very good thing.

Predictions:

1) reductions in all rules requiring any DM adjudication
2) more caster nerfing to "balance" the classes across all levels
3) a new campaign world
4) idiotic marketing

Wizards doesn't seem to get the idea that it doesn't have enough momentum to carry the MMORPG market.

Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and the (incredible) Planescape:Torment put them on perfect footing to make a huge splash in the MMORPG arena, but they chose to hack their dong off by setting Dungeons and Dragons Online in Eberron, their new PnP setting.

Mind you DDO launched well after WoW.

They actually decided, I can only assume, to set their 1st mainstream attempt at an MMORPG in a completely foreign world to most of their customers in order to drive book sales.

Books.

Pulp.

Magazines. (now sadly gone)

That's how out of touch they were.

Wizards is still trapped in a world where metal must hit paper to make money, to their loss.

Re:Please God! Let it kill DDO. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20257037)

I don't know why, but "hack their dong off" is the funniest phrase I've seen this week.

Remember... (4, Insightful)

Rix (54095) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256745)

WoTC got its start with Magic, the object of which is to purchase as much printed matter from WoTC as possible.

It's down again (1)

coppro (1143801) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256753)

I managed to get a glimpse of the new website before the /. effect took its toll and they shut it down. It looks nice. I like how they're integrating it online, but more importantly, they're fixing various broken things that they couldn't before. I also like the idea of integrating racial substitution levels directly into the racial/class entries (mixing races and classes from different supplements probably will still be difficult, or maybe the online content will mitigate that). Also, half-elves now have inspiring presence. Sounds like they aren't just a bridge between elves and humans anymore. I'm worried about the 18 3.0/3.5 books I own though. Most of the fluff is probably still applicable, but I hope that the 700+ dollars doesn't just get thrown away.

Oh, man, have to spend more money (5, Funny)

Jim in Buffalo (939861) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256795)

I'm going to have to spend all my money buying the new books! If I had a girlfriend, she'd kill me!

Re:Oh, man, have to spend more money (1)

LordEd (840443) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257011)

If you had a girlfriend, perhaps you would have to put on your robe and wizard hat [adamchance.com] .

Tor like oatmeals! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20256799)

Tor like oatmeals!

My autistic, mentally handicaped nephew (0, Troll)

polygamous coward (1127507) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256819)

loves this game!

The Saga Continues (5, Informative)

ShakaUVM (157947) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256871)

I run a nationwide 3.5ed D&D campaign (anyone can play -- www.livingplanar.com), and have talked a little bit with some people at WOTC about 4th edition. If you've been paying attention to their releases over the last year or two, you'll have noticed like I did that they've been experimenting with a lot of new 'systems' for doing stuff. The Tome of Battle completely redid combat for non-spellcasters, the Tome of Magic introduced 3 new magic systems which didn't fit in with the standard magic-user/cleric model that we've had since the '70s. Magic of Incarnum was another alternate magic system. Complete Scoundrel introduced 'skill tricks' which rewrote how skills worked. Complete Mage introduced 'reserve feats' which allowed spellcasters to cast (weak) spells all day long. Hell, the Warlock (which was a weak spellcaster that never ran out of spells) was probably their first real attempt at 'fixing' magic in D&D, which has long been problematic, is it has always overshadowed your mundane fighter types.

In 3ed or 3.5ed D&D, if you want to play a fighter (and you're optimizing your character), you play a spellcaster, and use spells to make yourself more human than the human.

At the San Diego Comicon this year I was a WOTC volunteer who was basically the 'Star Wars Saga Edition Guy' who got to explain the rules of Saga Edition to maybe 50 tables of people, running half hour games each time. Since Saga Edition is supposed to be real close to 4th edition, I'm probably as familiar as anyone with the hypothetical rules right now. Saga edition, in a nutshell... is okay. It removes your armor class and saving throws. Instead you have a joint AC/Save thing called Fort Defense, Reflex Defense and Will Defense, and the attacker makes all dice rolls (with the defense numbers normally 10 points higher than your old save, so a +5 reflex save would be a 15 reflex defense in the new system) so if I were to, say, fireball the party as a DM, I'd roll one d20 with my 10d6 fireball damage. If I got a 15 on the d20 'attack' roll, it would do full damage to everyone with a Reflex Defense of 15 or lower, and half damage to everyone higher. So you don't have to wait for 6 people to break out their dice, figure out their saving throw bonuses, etc. You just pitch the dice together, announce the result, and move on. A nice touch, though I'm a bit leery of running spells like Wail of the Banshee that way, as it will greatly increase the chance of TPKs -- we'll see if they keep one save for the party with that.

AC is now your Reflex Defense.

They have something called a condition track which runs concurrently with your hit points (you still have hit points -- Saga Edition is 90% the same as D20 rules). Any time you take more than your 'damage threshold' in damage (it's usually somewhere around a number between 15 to 20), you get a point of impairment, which adds a cumulative penalty to all your D20 rolls (-1, -2, -5, -10 KO), until you get knocked out at 5 points of impairment. So even if you have 200 hit points, if you take 20 damage 5 times in a combat, you'll be KOed, because they were bigger hits to you than 10 10 point hits.

The main thing that annoys me about the new system is that it is a little too generic. There's very little difference in the classes, with saves being almost totally revamped so that everyone's saves will be within 2 points of each other (your class save bonus only applies once, and you get the best of all classes that you multiclass in, and then progresses the same for everyone). Likewise, everyone gets a bonus to damage equal to half their class level. So a 20th level noble does the same damage with a blaster as a 20th level Jedi (3d6+10). The only difference in the classes are their 'special ability' talent trees, which work like in World of Warcraft. Essentially, every other level you get a new 'talent', many of which have prerequisites of other talents. So if you want the ability to reroll an attack roll once per day (a rogue ability) you might need the talent to reroll a skill check once per day. Sneak Attack is a talent, so if you want full Sneak Attack, you have to give up all these special abilities. :p

You still get feats. You get them every other level from which you get talents (and you get both a talent and a feat at 1st level). Feats are still the same. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, etc. The focus on combat now is making only a single attack roll a round, so things like Rapid Shot now give you -2 to hit in exchange for +one die of damage (of whatever type you roll). The only way of making full attacks now is by taking feats which give you iterative attacks -- for the most part, you'll be rolling one d20 a round, and that's it, which should speed up combat. And, again, homogenize the characters. In 3.5, there's a huge difference in damage between a person that full attacks and a person that attacks and moves.

Dying is nearly impossible in Star Wars Saga Edition. It might just be an artifact of playing Star Wars, but essentially all PCs are given 6 or so 'extra lives' per level. If they die, they just mark off an extra life, and stay at 0 hp. You also can't die unless you take more than your damage threshold in damage in a single hit. So you can theoretically be tossed (at 0 hit points) into a pit of ravenous wolves, and if you have a high damage threshold, still be there the next morning, since they can't kill you.

I once spent three rounds in a row coup de gracing a PC for 50 points of damage (he old had 30hp total!) and he didn't die, since he had extra lives (they're called force points) he just kept marking through.

I'm personally kind of pissed at WOTC over the decision, since 3.5 still had a good two years or so left in it, and that would have put the release of 4th edition 10 years after the release of 3ed, which is a much more psychologically ok time period to wait than 8 years (and 4 years after the release of 3.5). Any time you piss off your paying customers, you lose a little goodwill. Lose enough (like Best Buy has for me), and people won't purchase your stuff any more.

I am excited about the online gaming aspect of it though, and think Gleemax.com has the potential for being something very cool indeed.

Re:The Saga Continues (1)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257075)

magic... has always overshadowed your mundane fighter types.
Did you play the same D&D I did? Magic users are incredibly gimped compared to fighters. Maybe it gets better at higher levels (I never had the patience to play past level 10ish), but you find yourself either a) having the completely wrong spells for your situation prepared, or b) out of spells, constantly. I swore that if I ever ran a campaign, spell preparation would be GONE as a house rule, and I'd use the spell point system from Unearthed Arcana.

Then again, this was my experience, and may not be indicative of the game as a whole, which is why I ask.

Re:The Saga Continues (1)

oscarmv (603165) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257103)

Yeah, things do invert after level 10, with the full-fledged spell casters overshadowing the fighter-types. Badly.

Re:The Saga Continues (1)

jombeewoof (1107009) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257177)

That was the intended result as far as I thought.
If your caster could survive to the 10+ level mark then he/she would become one of the all powerful wizards.
I always played it like I read in the books, where the spellcaster characters would be vastly superior to hack-n-slash types except for either low level or when they are grossly under prepared.

I think it even said something like that in the original rule books. (circa 1978)

New disclaimer on the cover too (5, Funny)

rsanta74 (1003253) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256879)

WARNING: The following product contains orcs, trolls, wizards and knights. Neither the author nor the publisher shall assume any explicit or implied responsibility for potential loss of sex, lunch money, or dignity. Prolonged use may result in permanent retention of "virgin" status.

Re:New disclaimer on the cover too (0, Troll)

jombeewoof (1107009) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256989)

this might be the funniest post I've ever read on /.
oh how I wish I had mod points.

Dungeons and Dragons. (1)

momerath2003 (606823) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256901)

Satan's game [themadmusicarchive.com] .

Kinda like software... (2, Interesting)

ConceptJunkie (24823) | more than 7 years ago | (#20256993)

There's a pattern here that was also the same with DOS, Windows, Netscape, and perhaps others.

Version 1 was awful.
Version 2 was a little better.
Version 3 was excellent and stable.
Version 4 was big and bloated.
Version 5 fixed all the problems with version 4 that shouldn't have been made after version 3.

Of course, I played mostly 1ed and a little 2ed. I haven't played since the 3ed came out, but I always liked the 1ed rules with all the leftover nonsense from miniatures and wargames and stuff (1" = 10' indoors, but 30' outdoors).

To be honest I thought TSR was totally jumping the shark by the late 80's with all their "If it's not 'official', you can't use it." crap, and by 1992 or so most of the people I played with had moved out of town.

I really can't speak to WotC, but I thought of software given the comments I've read. "3.5 is stable" "3.5 is buggy"...

In more ways than one (1)

Kittenman (971447) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257183)

As per the mantra ...

1: Release base version

2: Make money

3: Release patched version

4: GOTO 2 and meanwhile ..

5: PROFIT !

Timelords (0, Offtopic)

Jedi Holocron (225191) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257187)

Bah! Just play Timelords by BTRC [wikipedia.org] instead.

Great Potential, Worrisome Indications (4, Insightful)

logicnazi (169418) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257209)

I really like the idea of a new D&D version. It's a chance to improve some of the imperfect rules in the last edition. For instance the fact that it's nearly impossible to create a fast moving dexterous fighter that has parity with a burly strength based one.

As far as people complaining about having to buy another version I sympathize but you don't have to buy the new version and WoTC shouldn't be forced not to fix the system just because some of us bought the previous version. I don't know if I will buy the new one (I have 3.5) but the next generation of gamers shouldn't be stuck with the imperfections of the system we played.

On the other hand I'm a bit worried about the online subscription part. The publication of feats and other rule changes in dragon was bad enough but an online subscription has even more of an official air about it and will give WoTC a very strong incentive to put overpowerful feats in the subscription. Hopefully, they will mostly just include story/background material and the occasional fix but we will have to wait and see.

Re:Great Potential, Worrisome Indications (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20257263)

For instance the fact that it's nearly impossible to create a fast moving dexterous fighter that has parity with a burly strength based one.

You want the Scout, from the Complete Adventurer handbook.

To be fair, it's nearly impossible to create any sort of fighter that has parity with a full caster.

mod, up (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20257239)

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Yeah, right (0, Troll)

crumbz (41803) | more than 7 years ago | (#20257243)

Wizards is a terrible company and will not get a single cent from me.

I'll wait for bittorrent.
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