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Valve Says Choice to Make DX10 Vista-Only Hurt PC Gaming

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the they're-in-a-place-to-know dept.

Microsoft 463

Erris writes "Valve's President Gabe Newell is calling Microsoft's choice to make DirectX 10 Vista-only a 'terrible mistake' that has harmed gaming. His company's latest hardware study shows the strategy has not moved gamers onto Vista. The result is that almost no one is using the newest version of DirectX, and companies are shying away from creating new input devices that support it. Nine months after release, after Christmas, after graduation, and with school mostly back in session, still only 8% of gamers are using it." Update: 08/27 21:09 GMT by Z : An AC points out that these numbers may be framed poorly given uptake numbers for XP's release.

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Huh? (0, Offtopic)

Macthorpe (960048) | more than 6 years ago | (#20374973)

Didn't you already write about this? [slashdot.org]

Re:Huh? (0, Offtopic)

The Living Fractal (162153) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375649)

You must be new here. Your UIN seems to suggest you have at least a little experience though. Strange.

Re:Huh? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376145)

Maybe if you took the time to pull your lips off your a dick and open your eyes to things other than gay porn you'd know. But nope, you like manmeat too much. Keep telling yourself it's not an addiction, even though you can't go more than a day without the hot semen of another man, without feeling the long thick penis, without being able to caress another man's balls. You crave the liquid of a man constantly. I mean, what kind of sick fucking pervert pretends his sperm cannot produce children just to get access to a sperm bank so you have some man-juice to drink while on your second honeymoon. If only your wive knew about your twisted addiction to man steak.

Re:Huh? (1)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376209)

Since when did six digit ids count as not being new?

Re:Huh? (1)

The Living Fractal (162153) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376245)

I guess since we've started eating up seven digits.

You're practically an old Vet 'round these parts.

Re:Huh? (2, Informative)

Dr. Eggman (932300) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375659)

Hmm, not if that link is correct. These appear to be two different user's journal entries. One of which has now been mainstreamed, the other which is still just somebody's journal entry.

Re:Huh? (1)

LiquidCoooled (634315) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375779)

From what I have been reading, twitter and erris are one and the same.
Look at the comments lower down in the discussion for a full rundown.

It was a headscratcher for me at first, but I think I believe it as well now.

Re:Huh? (1)

Dr. Eggman (932300) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376023)

Ah, I see. I had misattributed 'you' in the gp to indicate Slashdot, rather than the journalist and concluded the gp thought it was a dupe.

Re:Huh? (3, Interesting)

dedazo (737510) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375797)

No, 'Erris' (whose journal this got published from) is one of twitter's (the one linked to) sockpuppets.

Re:Huh? (2, Insightful)

pilgrim23 (716938) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376027)

Regardless of the troll source, the point that DX10 being Vista only as a driving force for Vista sales: SO WHAT?
    Microsoft makes DX10, Microsoft Makes Vista, and Microsoft makes money, not good feelings, not altruism, but good old MONEY off sales of Vista. Last I saw, XP was a money drain on Microsoft as they no longer sell it but must still support it.

Gaming the system for fun and profit (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375627)

This exact same journal entry [slashdot.org] was penned by twitter [slashdot.org] , who had it rejected from the Firehose probably because of his negative moderation and the fact that editors are starting to wise up to him.

The original journal entry already had comments that poke holes in twitter's claim about those numbers, which is probably why it became inconvenient and forced him to switch to his sockpuppet [slashdot.org] account instead.

Ironically, the same story in Heise.de has a link to another one [heise.de] about a gaming convention in Leipzig drawing all-time record attendance. I suppose it's possible that DX10/Vista will hurt the gaming industry, but with the game release cycle being 12-16 months, I'd say that will be apparent later on.

Here [steampowered.com] is a direct link to the original Valve survey, which amusingly enough shows Vista as having an even larger market share among Valve gamers as it has overall (8% vs 5-6%). That means Vista's market share among gamers has been increasing at a rate of about 1% per month since it was released, which is even higher than XP's uptake vs. Windows 98/ME. I can't even begin to imagine what the relevance of Christmas and back to school as claimed by twitter is for gamers who probably switch OSes only when they switch their $3,000 boxes anyway, but I'd say that 8% share is actually not bad in that segment. That share will probably start growing more exponentially as time goes by.

Welcome to the Trolled By Twitter Club, Zonk.

pwn3d (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375677)

have a nerd cookie

er on second thought, that sounds kinda gross

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (0, Offtopic)

Janek Kozicki (722688) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375719)

you should have an account for writing such insightful comments. Now you are not too likely to get modded up.

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376183)

(Score:5, Informative)
Yea, I don't think his posting AC hurt his score at all...

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (1)

jollyreaper (513215) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375789)

This exact same journal entry was penned by twitter, who had it rejected from the Firehose probably because of his negative moderation and the fact that editors are starting to wise up to him.
Betcha this was posted by twitter on his AC alt.

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375833)

I find it hard to believe that twitter would ever forgo the hilarity of spelling Microsoft with a dollar sign. If he and Erris are actually the same person, though, at least I have the pleasure of knowing that only 27 people have me foe'd, not 28!

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376215)

Well, they clearly are:

twitter comment:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=24993&cid=2716 111 [slashdot.org]

RazzleFrog reply:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=24993&cid=2716 156 [slashdot.org]

Containing the sentence "Did you even read my post?"

Eris reply:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=24993&cid=2717 040 [slashdot.org]

Where he says: "Sure I did, did you?"

Smoking gun...

Attention is flattering and sometimes useful. (-1, Troll)

twitter (104583) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375897)

This exact same journal entry was penned by twitter, who had it rejected from the Firehose probably because of his negative moderation and the fact that editors are starting to wise up to him.

You ACs and M$ spammers do this to me all the time. No big deal, it's not like I'd enforce a copyright or anything. Enjoy Twitter's work anyway you like.

It's funny that you would argue with what the president of Valve has to say about M$'s marketing strategy. What typical M$ bluster. Sometimes it can be useful, thank you so very much [slashdot.org] !

I can't even begin to imagine what the relevance of Christmas and back to school as claimed by twitter is for gamers who probably switch OSes only when they switch their $3,000 boxes anyway, but I'd say that 8% share is actually not bad in that segment.

If I can't run Vista on a $3,000 computer, what will it run on? Don't you think that kind of doubt is bad for the gaming market? If I'm going to buy a non free gaming system right now, it's going to be a $600 PS3.

As for the fortunes of Vistsa [slashdot.org] , we'll see. Looks like a sinking ship to me.

Re:Attention is flattering and sometimes useful. (0, Offtopic)

Macthorpe (960048) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376071)

I'll do everyone a favour and actually link to all the comments [slashdot.org] on your journal. That way people can be slightly more informed as to how dedazo and I 'helped' you.

Re:Attention is flattering and sometimes useful. (0, Offtopic)

Racemaniac (1099281) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376075)

roflmao, you're hilarious ^^
where did he say you need a 3000$ box (or that a 3000$ box isn't enough?)
it's just that most pc gamers make big updates from time to time, so dx10 cards and vista will grow in marker share when people feel the need to update their dx9 generation rig to a dx10 generation monster :).
also, about the ps3 (and xbox360), yeah, we know, it's cheaper, but the hardware stays the same for the next few years, so little progress over that time, and the pc's are already matching it's performance, in 2 or 3 years pc games will be a lot better than the console games. not to mention it are also different kind of games (besides the generic cross platform hyped crap for teens)

and just wondering, why a ps3? i'm no console player myself, but from what i heard so far from xbox360 vs ps3 is that the 360 is cheaper, better graphics (for now at least), more and better games, ....
or is this another episode in your great quest against m$?

Re:Attention is flattering and sometimes useful. (1)

theantipop (803016) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376129)

or is this another episode in your great quest against m$?
Read up on his journal and comments. It's pretty entertaining for such a one-dimensional troll.

Why a PS3. (-1, Troll)

twitter (104583) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376281)

why a ps3? i'm no console player myself, but from what i heard so far from xbox360 vs ps3 is that the 360 is cheaper, better graphics (for now at least), more and better games

PS3 has way more capacity than that silly Xbox and will last much longer. It's also got a better chance of being a non free video hub, as it already is in the EU and Japan. Xbox 360 is just like the original Xbox, it's only a few months old and it already looks obsolete. PS3, on the other hand, is going to be around for years and that kind of stability encourages game makers. There's a reason PS2 so completely dominated the market and I expect things to stay that way.

Re:Why a PS3. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376299)

twatter is fat attention whore with an obsession with mikkkro$$oft

Re:Attention is flattering and sometimes useful. (1)

theantipop (803016) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376101)

If I can't run Vista on a $3,000 computer, what will it run on? Don't you think that kind of doubt is bad for the gaming market? If I'm going to buy a non free gaming system right now, it's going to be a $600 PS3.
You missed the point entirely. Gamers generally only upgrade OS when they put together an entirely new box. Most top-of-the-line hardware owners I know or speak to generally only build a wholly new box once ever couple years, merely upgrading choice components in between.

As for the PS3 comment, what does that have to do with anything discussed here?

Re:Attention is flattering and sometimes useful. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376127)

You spent $3000 on a computer???

There went your nerd credentials.

More seriously, sometimes you have good points but you rarely make logical or well reasoned arguments. It's your reasoning that is most often ridiculed.

Anonymously yours,

AC

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (3, Insightful)

Gryll (23531) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375915)

I would bet that Microsoft was not narrowly looking at the next 12 months when they made the decision to require Vista for DX10. This is more like a 2-3 year strategy to force people away from XP and perhaps even Wine/Cedega. DX10 itself wasn't even targeted for todays graphics cards.

That said, I don't think it's healthy for the industry and I dread the day I break down and install Vista to get the most out of Starcraft2.

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (1)

theantipop (803016) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376167)

Play it on a Mac. There should be nothing stopping them from using D10-level effects in OGL.

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (5, Informative)

pantherace (165052) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375997)

However, even while Vista has about 8%, Vista + DX 10 is 2.3% of users. That's about half as many as are using DX 7. About 15% use DX 8, and the rest are DX9 types.

In terms of being able to sell one's product to the most people, it then makes more sense to make sure DX 7 runs it well, than it does for DX10. Unless you want to jack the price up, to compensate. Let's see, to make a new game for just DirectX 10, that would be about... 2000$ for the same revenue stream, based on steam's percentage.

The other thing people forget, is how Microsoft's tools are no longer targetted at the PC, instead they are targeted at the Xbox. This has had rather (IMO) disastrous consequences for one game I play, Supreme Commander. GPG was being partly funded by Microsoft (or would have been, my memory is foggy), and it was intended to be the first DX10 game and use Microsoft's networking, etc.

This is great and all, but the way Microsoft and GPG used it, it has to be peer to peer. And each computer runs the sim. Which would be fine, if it weren't one of the most taxing games on a cpu currently existing. This would be fine in a homogeneous environment, such as the Xbox. However, PCs aren't. So if one person has a crappy computer, it will slow EVERYONE down.

Microsoft stands to make more money from Xbox, so they are either intentionally, or unintentionally, doing things which are killing the PC games market.

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376057)

Juvenile drama from AC's that should get their asses back to Digg, on my /.?

It's more likely than you think.

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (1)

seebs (15766) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376061)

I'd say "welcome to the Only Able To Troll Zonk Club, twitter".

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376139)

twitter is gay

It's not 8%! (4, Informative)

Jartan (219704) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376147)

He is talking about people who can use DX10. Not people who have Vista.

This is the relevant part of the survey you need to look at:

DirectX10 Systems (Vista with DirectX10 GPU) - 2.31% of users
NVIDIA GeForce 8800 18,005 1.65 % ##
NVIDIA GeForce 8600 3,487 0.32 %
NVIDIA GeForce 8600M 1,087 0.10 %
ATI Radeon HD 2900 XT 1,068 0.10 %
NVIDIA GeForce 8500 990 0.09 %
NVIDIA GeForce 8400M 461 0.04 %
ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT 106 0.01 %
ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2300 30 0.00 %
Intel Bearlake B Express Chipset 2 0.00 %

So indeed the author of that Journal was correct: ~2% or 1 in 50 users can't use DX10. In other words the people "poking holes" need to learn to read.

Just looking at the Nvidia card numbers we can easily see the problem is most likely Vista and not the cards themselves.

NVIDIA GeForce 8800 49,850 4.56 %
NVIDIA GeForce 8600 11,330 1.04 %


Roughly 37k out of 61k Nvidia users on Steam have DX10 cards but can not utilize DX10 because they have not upgraded to Vista. So approximately 60% out of a group of people composed of people who are cutting edge sorts, buyers of new computers, or people who've done a recent computer upgrade have not yet upgraded to Vista.

None of this is proper statistics of course but as far as this sort of thing goes that's a pretty shocking number. I want to believe gamers are being smart but the realistic side of me though says the most likely reason is simply that Vista has a lot of problems for gamers right now and they are just waiting till driver issues resolve.

Re:Gaming the system for fun and profit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376207)

Nothing inconsistent here, you only need DX9 to run Vista. The fact is that AT BEST almost 100%-8% i.e. 92% of gamers are still on XP and cannot use DX10 even if their hardware is capable of it (and most of their hardware is not capable of it) because of an artificial restriction.

Apart from this the poster did not elaborate on Newell's comments, the underlying message is that Valve and Gabe think this has been a disaster.

If you want to take issue with that then offer something more than their own numbers which ostensibly back up the OP. Ultimately your disagreement is with Valve's conclusions. Your attack on the OP is just ad hominem distraction.

There is no question this is holding gaming technology back based on the numbers, and Valve's conclusion agrees. You offer nothing substantive to counter that.

Vista's growing at 1% per month?! That is alarming, that means XP and DirectX 9 will be the platform of choice for at least another 4-5 years, in which case it's much worse than anyone could have anticipated. Now imagine NVIDIA and ATI/AMD not being able to release a single new feature on the largest platform for another 5 years (at which point you project XP will pass it). What a disaster!

Informative? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376253)

Why is an anonymous personal attack modded +5?

Re: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375687)

No, really?

XP unable to support dx10 or what? (2, Insightful)

Soulfarmer (607565) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375695)

Was there any other reason NOT to have dx10 support on XP than attempt to boost Vista-sales among gamers? If not, it is even bigger mistake. One should not try to shove new os's down our throat etc.

Don't know what the biggest reason was, but still, seems like stupid thing to do.

Re:XP unable to support dx10 or what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375773)

Microsoft has ALWAYS been trying to shove new stuff down consumer throats to make another buck. You must be new here.

Re:XP unable to support dx10 or what? (5, Informative)

n dot l (1099033) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375825)

My understanding is that it requires significant changes to the driver model and that they couldn't back-port the changes to XP. Then again the DX10 equivalent OpenGL extensions all work (or will work) on XP (or so I've been promised by NV's reps at GDC) so that's probably only part of the issue (the other part being the Vista push).

Re:XP unable to support dx10 or what? (4, Interesting)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375879)

Oddly enough there are projects to make Vista games (Direct X 10 games) and apps run on Windows.

http://alkyproject.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]

It can be done, but Microsoft just wants people to jump to Vista. I think they are barking up the wrong tree. Gamers who want the best possible performance aren't going to jump to an OS that eats more resources and slows their rig down. I'll consider buying a Direct X 10 game the moment Wine/Cedega supports it.

Re:XP unable to support dx10 or what? (4, Funny)

alxbtk (1009019) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375931)

"I'll consider buying a Direct X 10 game the moment Wine/Cedega supports it."

You won't have to buy it. It'll be abandonware by then.

Re:XP unable to support dx10 or what? (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376001)

Funny, Cedega supported Half-Life 2 shortly after release, and World of Warcraft. Cedega makes a bigger effort to support current games than older games.

Re:XP unable to support dx10 or what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376005)

alky for games has been in a perpetual unrelease state, and now have just let their "it'll be out Aug 15, we swear!" promise float on by. it's a scam to collect $50 a pop to join their so-called "sapling" club while baiting them and the public with periodic "we're working on it!" press releases.

That's nonsense (1)

cbreaker (561297) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375951)

It's software. You can ALWAYS make it work. I hate all this "you can't back-port it" bullshit. It's their API on their OS that they wrote. They can do whatever the heck they want to do.

It's not like DX10 uses a new expansion bus that only works with 64-bit operating systems or something. It's just an API, and the cards are already plugged into the PCIe slots.

Re:XP unable to support dx10 or what? (3, Interesting)

Climate Shill (1039098) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375865)

If people buy Vista to get DX10 it's a win for Microsoft. If people are discouraged from using Microsoft's gaming competititor, the PC, it's a win for Microsoft. So it's not stupid at all.

Re:XP unable to support dx10 or what? (2, Informative)

InsaneProcessor (869563) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376047)

If people continue to use XP and buy only games that are compatible, M$ loses which is what is happening so far.

Re:XP unable to support dx10 or what? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376367)

If, on the other hand, it encourages game developers to write their graphics code using OpenGL, it's a loss for Microsoft. Why? Because that makes it much easier to port their code to Mac, Wii, etc, and also makes it more likely to run in WINE.

and yet, thanks to nvidia's incompetence... (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375707)

their inability to get memory virtualisation working for them caused MS to drop the requirement, and as such there is NOTHING about DX10 that makes it technically undoable on XP.

yet here we are!

Proud of game makers (3, Interesting)

jshriverWVU (810740) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375723)

The reasons MS made DX10 Vista only is to force people into upgrading just so they can play Starcraft 2008. The developers are luckily breaking MS's grip but telling them, we're the content providers, the reason people buy your system now do what we need or we won't follow.

PLEASE! (1, Redundant)

gerf (532474) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376323)

STOP calling it "upgrading."

This story can be tightened up a bit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375725)

before: Gabe Newell, president of Valve Software, said that Microsoft made a terrible mistake releasing DirectX 10 for Vista only and excluding Windows XP.

after: Microsoft made a terrible mistake releasing Vista.

You know... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375735)

Doesn't matter if it's dx10 or dx 18.

Computer gaming sucks, that's the end of it.

p.s Gabe Newell eats babies.

correction (1)

Spy der Mann (805235) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375967)

Computer gaming sucks

Except for emulation :)

Microsoft-controlled content (2, Interesting)

Boa Constrictor (810560) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375743)

DirectX is one of the few things that Microsoft controls in its entirety. While the hardware and the drivers are (were) outside their control, DX is probably the only thing MS can withhold from users of XP without someone else devising a work-around. Come to it, are there any other "killer features" of vista (even if you assume blu-ray, etc. is mature)?

Sure, it's bad for games and indeed gamers, needlessly straining the hardware more for one thing, not to mention content-protection, buying vista, etc., but it's a gamble MS are taking to force users onto their OS. Of course, it will shrink the DX10 market and thus slow graphics development of games. Who knows, maybe a little emphasis on other things would be good for the industry?

Re:Microsoft-controlled content (1)

Macthorpe (960048) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375973)

What I don't understand are his comments about input peripherals.

I mean, people are perfectly to use the WiiMote as a Bluetooth device on Windows, and Guitar Hero guitars work fine when plugged to a PS2-USB adaptor as an HID-compliant device. There's no limitation inherent in DirectX that stops these devices from working. Anyone remember the P5 Glove?

Too bad Valve. (4, Interesting)

IPFreely (47576) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375763)

There is a lot more going onin DX10 than games. The whole driver-OS interface was changed. Those changes were necessary to put the 3D hardware into sharable mode.

Now multiple applications and games can share the 3D hardware. In DX9/WinXP and earlier only one App at a time could use the 3D hardware. It needed to be done, and it could only be done with the cooperation of the OS. This cannot be put back into XP because this sort of control and separation could not be done in XP.

Re:Too bad Valve. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375801)

So, you mean, make it more like how OpenGL has operated for years?

Re:Too bad Valve. (1)

InsaneProcessor (869563) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375861)

And I still do not have, nor plan to have any copy of vista on any of my machines. It looks like the game manufacturers really don't care about sharing 3D on their games. It isn't necessary and nobody who is spending money on this stuff want it or cares. When you are playing a game, that is all you care about doing on that machine.

M$ still doesn't have a clue.

yeah its a big issue (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375875)

i mean it has affected me prescisely 0 times since DX launched back in 95.... Must be equally as bothersome for other users

Re:Too bad Valve. (2, Interesting)

DDLKermit007 (911046) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375881)

Yeah, because we all want to run 3 games that'll eat up the GPU at the same time. Thats a function that could have EASILY be left out for XP. It doesn't need 3D support for it's GUI.

Re:Too bad Valve. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375925)

Oddly a simple google search disagrees with you. There are several projects which allow DX10 only games to run on XP. I guess DX10 could be built on XP. The most damning evidence is that DX10 began its beta's on XP. Sorry to disappoint you.

Re:Too bad Valve. (3, Informative)

pla (258480) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376083)

This cannot be put back into XP because this sort of control and separation could not be done in XP.

I call BS.

At the lowest level, a video driver (for XP or any architecture, really) just translates requests from applications (including the OS itself) into something the video card understands. Whether the video hardware can handle multiple simultaneous renderings or not depends only on the hardware and the API (in this case, Direct X provides the API, as exported by the actual driver).

For XP to support DX10 would require literally nothing more than compatible hardware with functional drivers supporting the DX10 API.
Now, some older apps may cause problems by trying to monopolize access to the screen, but that differs entirely from saying XP can't do it.



The whole driver-OS interface was changed.

Well... Yes, it has, because the OS changed. Which makes that something of a circular argument - DX10 will only run on Vista because the interface changed because OS changed and the only DX10 implementation uses that new interface. And Apache for Linux doesn't run on Windows, surprisingly enough.

Re:Too bad Valve. (2, Insightful)

Jartan (219704) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376297)

There is a lot more going onin DX10 than games. The whole driver-OS interface was changed.


That is a logical fallacy. The driver-OS interface changing does not necessitate the need for an gaming hardware API to be tied to a particular OS.

The entire purpose of DirectX is to provide an abstraction layer ontop of the drivers in the first place. It's quite true that it might mean writing two versions of DX10 but the API does not depend on the changes Vista implemented.

Re:Too bad Valve. (1)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376365)

In DX9/WinXP and earlier only one App at a time could use the 3D hardware.

...and as a primarily Linux user who really just uses Windows XP for gaming, this affects me precisely how?

As far as I'm concerned, XP runs some great games - why do I give a stuff how many apps can use the graphics hardware at once?

I always laugh about analysis like this (1)

AssCork (769414) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375781)

Because, seriously, who gives a shit?

PC Gamers can smell a Rat - And it's Vista (3, Interesting)

gadlaw (562280) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375787)

Vista is what it is, a bloated, DRM filled, resource hog designed to take more of your computer away from you and in exchange it gives you unrecognized drivers, unsupported software and nothing but aggravation. The new spectacular games that were supposed to be there are not there, all we can see are promises and vaporware for sometime in the future but for now all you get is pain and misery. Tell me again why I want that? Tell me Microsoft why DirectX 10 is so much more special? I see the side by side comparisons and I don't see much difference, certainly not worth me busting everything I own now and investing in something with no real tangible difference. I hear the FUD, the hear the huckster Microsoft cheerleaders saying how great it is but this is the internet and the voices of everyone else are heard loud and clear so the lying isn't being believed. 8 Percent using it? Sounds on the high side to me. It's just a matter of how long until Microsoft admits they've created a loser and perhaps we can get to real innovation. I won't hold my breath on that second part though.

Re:PC Gamers can smell a Rat - And it's Vista (4, Insightful)

dedazo (737510) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376017)

Actually I'd say they are aware of the problems and are trying to fix them [istartedsomething.com] . Whether or not they fix them and whether or not that results in faster adoption remains to be seen.

huckster Microsoft cheerleaders saying how great it is but this is the internet and the voices of everyone else are heard loud and clear so the lying isn't being believed.

Alternatively, you can also hear the FUDsters and hysteria-inducing misleading rants about the DRM boogeyman, UAC and just about anything else in Vista. The "poor Google, they are being victimized by Microsoft" crap when Vista search is much better than GDS and all Google had to do was give the user the option to shut down the indexing service. The wailing cries by the AV snake oil vendors. And let's not forget the concerted efforts by the FSF to convince everyone that Vista is "defective by design" and directing their minions to the closest Amazon product page to astroturf and vandalize the hell out of everything. It goes on and on and on.

I sure as hell haven't seen much more than FUD coming from the groups of people who would be the most affected once Vista gains traction. I don't have a problem with people doing that so much - Microsoft is known for those types of tactic as well. The problem is that the same people doing all this are the ones that have repeatedly claimed they own the moral high ground. The ones that claim Microsoft is not "honest". FUD always works both ways. It erodes your credibility when people realize you've been feeding them soup to undercut your competitors. It happened to Microsoft, and it will happen to them as well.

what is ur favorite (1)

R00BYtheN00BY (1118945) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375793)

WHat IS ur favorite DBZ (DragBALL z) cgHARACTER mine is SJJ GOKU!! sometime he power up and kill freeza with 1 million powerlevel

Microsoft Making Life Miserable For All Gamers (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375831)

With Microsoft fucking up the already dying pc game market, all the crappy pc developers like Valve and Id are now trying to dump their crap on consoles...and crying like retards that "Waaaa!!! All this directx code and x86 code we wrote doesn't work!!!"

Thank you Microsoft!

And why should I? (1)

Bobb Sledd (307434) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375841)

And why should I? I'm really not much of a gamer; having problems with my arms, wrists, and fingers, I can't really play games anymore. I still have and use on my main home computer, Windows 2000! And it works just fine for what I need, thank you! It's fast, solid, reliable. XP is an OK OS, and I use it at work.

I've seen and used Vista, and it just frustrates me to move around in. I don't like it, and I'll likely end up buying a Mac before I ever get Vista.

Forced Upgrade (4, Insightful)

ryanisflyboy (202507) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375847)

Everyone will experience a forced upgrade. It is simply a matter of time. When your non-tech friend buys his next gaming machine it is going to come with Vista because XP won't be an option. I remember a similar reluctance between 3.11 and Win95. Eventually everyone got there - or skipped Win95 and went right to Win98. In another year the landscape will be much different. Microsoft will eventually pull the plug on OEMs who are still selling XP (Dell).

This is a great time to consider an alternate desktop OS.

Re:Forced Upgrade (1)

pla (258480) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376229)

Eventually everyone got there - or skipped Win95 and went right to Win98.

Some of us skipped right from DOS 6.2 to NT4. 2K rocked, and XP, meh, I resisted until SP2 but decent enough now.

And if MS keeps pushing this "Vista or else" crap, I'll "skip" right from XP to Linux.

I'm not the most tech savvy person... (1)

Ub3rT3Rr0R1St (920830) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375853)

...Will this mean that if my graphics card is optimized for DirectX 9, that it won't work at the same level with DirectX 10? If so, can I simply uninstall DirectX 10, and go back to DirectX 9? I haven't made the download yet.

Sorry if this is a noob question, but I'd like to know before I decide to upgrade. Please, no flaming.

Re:I'm not the most tech savvy person... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376313)

DirectX versions live side by side. You probably already have DX9, and installing DX10 won't erase it.

If your card is a DX9 card, it won't work with DX10 at all. Not without a big driver update anyway, and that's pretty unlikely to happen. All the current DX10 games on the market will degrade to DX9 for the near future -- though if they're vista-exclusive, they'll still remain so unless fixed by a hack. At some point, a game will come out that will require DX10, and then you're basically screwed on that card. But it takes a while -- the Source engine will degrade all the way to DX7 if it has to, and since DX7 has a software renderer, that means it can support anything at all. Slowly.

where all men are christian, no one is christian (1)

VORP Matters (1148313) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375869)

can anyone help me port RO to my Zune?

DX10 won't be Vista-only forever (1)

thezig2 (1102967) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375899)

Future versions of Wine will be compatible with DX10, so Linux (and maybe XP) can use that. Also, there's Alky (at http://www.fallingleafsystems.com/ [fallingleafsystems.com] ) which promises DX10 on XP in the future. Of course, with developers dragging their heels it's not impossible that Microsoft might bite the bullet and release DX10 for XP. I don't know how DX10 works, but I guess it's also possible that somebody might find a way to hack a DX10 redistributable to work with XP.

Re:DX10 won't be Vista-only forever (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376173)

It's bullshit, a scam to swindle people out of $50 to join their pre-release list without ever delivering the promised DX10 game compatibility.

Game developers chose this (4, Insightful)

symbolset (646467) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375901)

When game developers chose to standardise their efforts on Windows they bit the hook. Now they are unhappy about being on the line. Too bad.

We warned them. Now if some forward thinking company thought to maintain some cross platform efforts they are ready to seize a significant opportunity. Unreal engine? Id? Is that you?

Re:Game developers chose this (1, Offtopic)

huckamania (533052) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376043)

It's hard for game company VPs to understand how they will make money by releasing free software. The 4 freedoms and such are kind of anathema to their current business model of selling software for money (as opposed to good will and community driven software improvements).

Now quick, someone post a link to the top 100 open source games, cause that will show them.

Re:Game developers chose this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376097)

We warned them. Now if some forward thinking company thought to maintain some cross platform efforts they are ready to seize a significant opportunity.

Cross-platform with what, Windows XP? Even the submitter's various Vista-crazed personas aren't claiming there's anything going on here besides the market shares of various forms of Windows.

Re:Game developers chose this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376319)

DAMN STRIAGHT!!!
The next game on the shelf (hopefully a first person shooter) that i see with tux the penguin on it (like UT2004) is the next game i buy. i love playing video games and I'm perfectly fine with paying $$ for them IF they'll run on my linux box. fsck microsoft.

Its true - we're missing the next big feature set! (1)

QX-Mat (460729) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375905)

Instancing, geometry shaders and fast critical paths are just some of the developments DX10 has to offer developers with an eye on better games... and we're not seeing any of them on XP. The OpenGL ARB, while faster under the purview of the Khronos group, still lags behind the direct-x pace of adoption.

Does Microsoft know they are driving developers onto the PS3 by forcing the adoption of OpenGL on XP... ultimately a lead in to OpenGL ES - the standards compliant graphics API of choice for the PS3.

OpenGL 3 will be officially granted ARB status by the Khronos group come the end of September - if Microsoft still hasn't gotten their act together, they might find the next big start-up with a game engine to offer won't be using DX, and won't be an exclusive 360 product!

Matt

In all their glorious wisdom... (1)

MidVicious (1045984) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375907)

I mean really... providing your customer base with a buggy, heavy GUI (XP with drop shadows and a huge gut), having to have a middle-to-top tier video card regardless of RAM and CPU just to run the OS, and then slapping a new version of DX-10 that is allocated only to the remaining memory on the video card that's not being used by Vista... and then saying this is the ONLY way to have DX-10 prior to releasing Vista-only games...

Somebody actually thought this would be a good, marketable idea? You would think, in this age of backwards-compatibility, that Windows would have maybe, I dunno, thought this through a bit more...

Re:In all their glorious wisdom... (1)

Ramble (940291) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376231)

Could you give some evidence to support your claims? I've been running Vista and Gentoo for probably a year now, and since I'm not a shameless FOSS hack I can admit that Aero is better than Beryl/Compiz-Fusion. I can't believe you'd be so close minded that you think a GUI takes up all my video memory. People are running Aero on a Geforce 4 MX, it's far from heavy (And it's disabled in full screen apps).

Not at all surprising... (1)

Arctech (538041) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375913)

...but it's nice to hear the industry say what everyone else has been thinking, especially when they have the Steam user statistics to back it up.

Devil's advocate (1)

iamacat (583406) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375937)

Is Microsoft obliged to provide new technology for old versions of Windows, free of cost? Graphics card manufacturers are free to agree on alternative standards, such as OpenGL, to expose new features of their products without forcing an OS upgrade or locking game writers into a particular OS. Last I heard, OpenGL works fine on Vista, XP, Mac and Linux.

Re:Devil's advocate (1)

Spy der Mann (805235) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376029)

Is Microsoft obliged to provide new technology for old versions of Windows, free of cost?

... and this is why the OS manufacturer shouldn't be the same company that makes the multimedia API's.

Re:Devil's advocate (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376051)

Microsoft is under no such obligation, but what's troubling is that it's quite likely this backport nonsense, is just that, nonsense, and is more likely simply if(ver=='WinXp') print "You're fucked!";

The real question is what will Microsoft do when someone does get DX10 running on XP. Are they going to have a temper tantrum, make threats and the like?

Re:Devil's advocate (2, Insightful)

jollyreaper (513215) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376093)

Is Microsoft obliged to provide new technology for old versions of Windows, free of cost? Graphics card manufacturers are free to agree on alternative standards, such as OpenGL, to expose new features of their products without forcing an OS upgrade or locking game writers into a particular OS. Last I heard, OpenGL works fine on Vista, XP, Mac and Linux.
No, but they're smart if they do. DirectX keeps gamers wedded to the Microsoft tit. Let's be honest, the two drivers of PC tech are games and pr0n. When I made my choice between PC and Mac as a kid, I wanted the machine all my friends had and that was so we could share games. Going on a BBS? Hell, an Atari ST could do that with its cheesy 300 baud modem. My best friend had to suffer through that until his dad finally built a 386. But games? PC's were where it was at, at least for the then-current generation.

There's a lot of Vista hate right now. If Microsoft was smart, they'd just release DX10 for XP and hope they get Vista ironed out by SP1 and DX11 and catch the gamers on the next upgrade cycle. If they don't, they're just giving more ammunition to the "anyone but Microsoft" camp. Vista's already making distros like Ubuntu look better and better. And we only have to look back to the sweeping mass extinctions in computer history to realize that no order is permanent.

Re:Devil's advocate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376213)

Certainly not. It's just an example of how the OS vendor can lead the market around by the nose. You'll eventually switch to Vista, either because you like games, but can't stand the crappy interface of a console, or you just don't have a choice anymore (product X needs DX10; XP is no longer sold). I love OpenGL, but it doesn't have the speed advantage in XP or Vista the way that DirectX can and does thanks to source code availability. OpenGL 3? How many OpenGL 2.0 compliant hardware video cards are out there? That's limiting OpenGL, too.

DirectX10 is not compelling all on its own (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20375985)

It may provide programmers new features and supposed efficiencies, but all the DX10 games kick the ass of any top hardware in even SLI and crossfire (hell most of the DX9 PS 3.0 games can slow the best hardware). It doesn't turn any DX9 turds into diamonds. And any visual improvements will go largely unseen if I have to drop from 1600 x 1200 to 1024 x 768 to see them. DirectX 10 is about the future, not about changing the now.

Even if they had an XP/2003 port, DX10 will not be rocking anyone's DX 9 world anytime soon.

and Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln (4, Insightful)

xigxag (167441) | more than 6 years ago | (#20375993)

It's pretty funny that Microsoft in its stronghold (PC OSes) made the same exact mistake that Sony made in its stronghold (consoles). Sony thought that tying Blu-Ray to its new console would be a win-win for format licensing and for the Playstation sales, but instead, high prices and lack of compelling software have kept people back. Similarly, MS thought that tying DX10 to its PC OS would be a win-win for gaming licensing and Vista sales, but instead, high prices and lack of compelling software have kept people back. As a result, people generally prefer to keep buying last-gen PS2's and Windows XP.

Quit sucking off Direct3d and Microsoft (4, Insightful)

zymano (581466) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376059)

Use opengl.

These game producers are idiots.

You got what you wanted when you only support Microsoft.

They got you by the balls.

Re:Quit sucking off Direct3d and Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376081)

Spoken like a true expert in the field.

Only a busy MS fellator would say that. (1)

FatSean (18753) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376133)

In other words...takes one to know one!

It's strongarm tactics, IMHO (1, Informative)

Like2Byte (542992) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376109)

This is nothing more than a ploy by M$ to force users to buy Vista. I loved Halo and 'Privateer' - both MS games. I was going to Buy Halo 2 until I saw it was Vista only. Did I say, "Man, I gotta upgrade my computer!"? Sure I did. But, if MS thinks for 1 second that I'm investing ~$300 into their Vista OS, they got another thing coming.

Microsoft's approach to 'Vista only' has only propelled me further from their business. I used to be of the mindset that gaming platforms are so one dimensional and not useful for anything else but play games why would I want to buy one? Now, I'm actually considering buying a PS3 - and I *loath* Sony far more than Microsoft right now - but, I've determined that MS's gaming division isn't getting any more of my money because I see right through their shoddy business practice of strong-arming consumers into buying their OS.

I'll be damned if an XBox or Vista enters my house.

That being said, I also will refuse to purchase any product from any gaming company that *also* supports 'Vista only' games whether the title I'm currently interested in supports XP or not.

Windows-only (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376117)

Valve making games Windows-only has hurt PC gaming.

8% is huge (1)

MobyDisk (75490) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376161)

It seems like the article is trying to be negative, but if 8% of gamers are on Vista that's actually amazingly good for Microsoft. Especially since I don't know a single soul who uses it except the QA department at my company. That much market penetration for a product that has been bashed and beaten in the press is amazing.

It just goes to show how Microsoft can force people to upgrade by pushing Vista through the manufacturers.

So long MS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20376187)

I've been a video gamer for the last 25+ years (nerd), since the early 90s this meant I was a PC gamer with the last console purchased being the original NES. Most of my games no longer work on my current PC, Win XP, just because they are too old and backwards compatibility isn't what it used to be, or ever was. I'm tired of MS, the poor documentation and the lousy user experience, it got where it was by being the low cost alternative and now it isn't. My XP box is old, P4ish with AGP and IDE drives. When I last looked at buying a new box all the major retailers were pushing Vista, which I wasn't thrilled about. Instead I bought a MacBook Pro, which I now love, don't know a thing about what it does in the background but I don't need to, it just works, perfectly, all the time. At this point I don't see any reason to pump out that much cash for a new PC, or move to vista. If I buy new games they will need to work on my Mac, which many don't but that's OK by me. If the Mac doesn't work out for me as a gaming platform I will need to buy a console, I guess. Being that I feel MS has put me in this situation, I won't be buying an XBox, screw them.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, this is just how I see it.

Dx10, Vista and Network Problems? (3, Interesting)

happyfrogcow (708359) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376295)

You'll have to excuse me for not being able to test the following. I do all my gaming in Linux (no seriously, I do!)

We all know that if you play music on Vista, it causes a degradation of network performance. What happens if you have a networked game decoding an MP3? Is this all handled in the game's own system, or does it depend on the OS to do it. Do you get a drop in network performance in the game? That would be incredible...

Is this news? (0)

HerculesMO (693085) | more than 6 years ago | (#20376355)

Anybody remember Windows XP and the adoption of DX9?

Jeez, for nerds we have a bad sense of history.
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