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Sun Says OpenSolaris Will Challenge Linux

kdawson posted more than 7 years ago | from the color-us-skeptical dept.

Sun Microsystems 405

E5Rebel writes "Sun Microsystems has ambitious plans for the commercial and open source versions of its Solaris operating system. The company hopes to achieve for Solaris the kind of widespread uptake already enjoyed by Java. This means challenging Linux. 'There's an enormous momentum building behind Solaris,' according to Ian Murdock, chief operating platforms officer at Sun, who was chief technology officer of the Linux Foundation and creator of the Debian Linux distribution. Isn't it all a bit late?"

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OpenSolaris (5, Funny)

smitty_one_each (243267) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462551)

OpenSolaris
Won't a new one tear us,
Unless they first
Have Ballmer chair us,
Great documentation--
Now that could scare us.
Burma Shave

Re: Masturbation in Showers (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20462809)

We have recently found several blockages in showers in university owned accomodation, mostly commonly caused by human hair.

However, over last term we found many of these blockages to be caused by large quantities of what we have now determined to be semen. This is intolerable, and we shall be tracing the culprits by means of DNA matching if the problem persists.

May we advise students who wish to masturbate to do so in the comfort of their own rooms, rather than in the showers.

Thank you for taking time to read this document.

Re:OpenSolaris (3, Interesting)

arivanov (12034) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462965)

Great documentation--

This is probably correct. With a "--".

I recently had to try to read the spagetty which is the OpenSolaris TCP implementation and frankly it felt exactly like this "--". Great documentation--; for very line, through the entire monolythic single multimegabyte .c file.

No thanks, compared to that I will actually take BSD any day. That is actually documented. Both outside the code and inside it.

It is quite entertaining to see Murdock making such claims. He actually forgets that the greatest strength of Linux is that most of its codebase is understandable. While it may be missing some high end enterprise bells and whistles a relative newbe can sit down and understand most of the code straight away. Granted, his attempts at coding anything for it may end up being futile, but he will like it none the less. On top of it he has the greatest possible documentation - the code and it is readable.

Solaris codebase is anything but understandable. I have read some of the code and the best way to describe it is "brainnumbing exercise". As such it will always have a limited appeal to any new developer who is facing a choice of where to put his efforts.

This is as far as developers are concerned. And as far as users Solaris is late to the party as well. Apple got there before it.

Re:OpenSolaris (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20463185)

"spagetty", eh?

Learn to spell before you criticise someone else's work.

Re:OpenSolaris (1)

fimbulvetr (598306) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463217)

Mr. Murdock hasn't forgot about Linux's strengths (or weaknesses for that matter), he's just paid to say other things. Ironic as it is, since he's the one who founded the most free linux distribution to date, one that will never be ran by a corporation and one that does not bend to officially include non-free software.

What is the platform? (4, Insightful)

BadAnalogyGuy (945258) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462557)

What's the point of an operating system when you've got Java running on top of whatever is there? The OS is just a bootloader for the Java VM.

Sun's interest in pushing two separate platforms is baffling.

Re:What is the platform? (5, Insightful)

setagllib (753300) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462595)

Sun has a lot more than just Java software, and has a lot to gain from having firster-than-first class support for Java in the operating system (e.g. kernel-level code caching, pushing code into kernel space, etc). Linux can technically have it all now too, with Java being GPLv2'd. But really, Sun has packages like StarOffice, which needs a lot more than just a JVM.

I encourage more competition for Linux. A free market is built on competition. Now that Microsoft is becoming a competitor rather than an oppressive regime, it'll be naturally selected out and increasingly powerful Unix systems will dominate the market. A Linux monopoly is not a good thing either, and whether BSDs or Solaris share the market, we all stand to benefit.

It'd be even better if we had some license consolidation, but hey, that's a pipe dream. I'd rather have license-incompatible code than no code at all because people refuse to use GPLvX.

Re:What is the platform? (1)

namekuseijin (604504) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462775)

"pushing code into kernel space, etc). Linux can technically have it all now too"

thanks but we don't a wanted a Big Bloated Java Kernel. we want a lean c one...

Re:What is the platform? (3, Funny)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462921)

we want a lean c one...

Dr Tanenbaum, please come back.. all is forgiven [minix3.org] :-)

Re:What is the platform? (4, Interesting)

setagllib (753300) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462969)

Allow me to clarify. The JVM currently has a lot of clever optimizations like lock coarsening. It's proving it's pretty smart. Now, imagine if the JVM could detect a certain procedure is doing a LOT of user-kernel switches, and therefore can be moved to kernel space. When it needs to communicate memory back to userspace, it can be moved back in, ideally, only one switch. This is a pretty simple optimization which has a lot of room for improving performance. Some processes like servlet containers and their servlets could, in theory, be moved entirely into kernel land, without having to program any kernel code at all. I wonder if this is planned for any JVM?

Re:What is the platform? (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462985)

I don't think he was referring to coding the kernel in Java (which would IMO be a really strange use of Java since Java is intended to be interpreted, though I suppose a Java kernel would be more portable), he was talking about coding the kernel in such a way as to be able to run Java apps more efficiently. Sorry if you knew that, your post became a bit ambiguous to me when you mentioned C.

Re:What is the platform? (1)

namekuseijin (604504) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463197)

twas sarcasm

Re:What is the platform? (1)

somersault (912633) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463237)

Ah. May have been better along the lines of "w00tz, Java Kernel lmaoolwtflolz!".

Re:What is the platform? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20462781)

The concept of competition does not apply to free software because competition implies a winner and a loser. In OSS, there is no winner, nor is there a loser. OSS projects progress by the input and enthusiasm of the users. There is no reason that a single "monopoly" project would necessarily lead to lower innovation. Since the project itself is not in any competition to lure users away from a competitor, there is no incentive either way to innovate except for the "itch" to keep making the project better.

A monopoly-style OSS project would lead to more innovation, in fact, because with more users wanting more features, the project will have both a larger pool of ideas to choose from as well as a larger pool of developers to implement and grow the project. Growth encourages growth, at least as far as OSS is concerned.

Competition, OTOH, draws finite resources away from the developer pool. While ideas may be freely shared, developer time cannot be, so a project that gets X number of hours of work will have monopolized that time for that project. Sometimes this work can be easily shared among other projects, but most of the time it cannot be shared without significant porting and adaptation. Competition fragments the development effort of all OSS projects.

The only competition that truly exists in OSS is the competition of ideas. The actual implementation of code is where this is fought. If idea A has more support than idea B, it will be idea A that gets implemented. In this way, in democratic fashion, the best ideas (alternatively, the most popular ideas) get turned into reality. When the small group of idea B supporters break away from the main project to proceed with implementing their idea, only time will be able to tell whether idea A or idea B was the right way to go. But it is an unnecessary competition and draws resources away from the improvement of the platform.

Competition against Microsoft or Sun is not the reason Linux improves over time. Rather, it is because users who want to use Linux implement the features that they want so that the platform grows to fit them. As it grows to fit them, it also grows to fit everyone. The additive nature of OSS sees to it that the best ideas stick around and the lousy ones get tossed away. That's not to say that Linux isn't stuck in the Unix rut, because it is. It's that if there were no Linux, there would be something else.

Re:What is the platform? (1)

smitty_one_each (243267) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462971)

OSS projects progress by the input and enthusiasm of the users.
Be sure that your definition of "input" extends to cold, hard cash, and "users" also includes companies.
A variety of companies in one market, say, CPUs and motherboards, might avoid significant cost by sponsoring a consortium to write a kernel that scales across architectures and configurations. Linux is an example. The trick is to find an HMFIC with enough technical skill and managerial talent to keep the wheels on the bus.

The only competition that truly exists in OSS is the competition of ideas.
Ideas are indeed important, but service also carries weight. If not, then companies would not exist to sell admin services for PostGreSQL, for example.

In summary, though proprietary vendors may cringe, OSS is not solely a hobby for teenagers and hippies. It is a no-kidding business force.

Re:What is the platform? (4, Interesting)

setagllib (753300) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463043)

You've missed an important reality of FOSS development, which is that most projects have a core team (or, often, a Benevolent Dictator) which decides everything. No matter how much the users might want, that core team still decides what gets implemented and widely deployed. Look at Python vs Ruby - they're competing in a very similar space, and both growing in different directions, with uses for both of them. They simply cannot become one project without losing their individual advantages. But they can co-exist rather nicely, and cross-pollinate ideas that are compatible with both.

Linux has Linus as the benevolent dictator. Linux is freakin' awesome, but other projects do things differently, and can often justify them one way or another. If these projects are allowed to bring those ideas into reality, and demonstrate their value, Linux could copy the ideas.

Look at BSD's kqueue, spawned in FreeBSD. It's really good. Around the time it was spawned, Linux still had poll, and then later epoll, but epoll isn't that great. Now Linux is getting new event notification systems, of varying sanity, because kqueue has shown it can be done much better, even if the Linux guys don't quite agree with it in its entirety.

For all we know, Linux might end up re-architecturing to have natural SSI like DragonFly plans to have. DragonFly can be a great proof of concept. And if, a few years from now, the market situation is such that implementing drivers, software support, etc. is easy, the developer resources can focus on making a competitive, usable product instead of playing catchup with basic hardware support. We'll see an explosion of useful, interoperable operating systems, that would have otherwise died just trying to be runnable at all. *Especially* with virtualization platforms reducing the amount of code necessary to get a live kernel, and improving debuggability, deployment flexibility, etc. The mere anticipation floors me.

Re:What is the platform? (1)

Alioth (221270) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463163)

You're making a false assumption. A monopoly OSS project might not necessary garner any more developers than a non-monopoly one. For example, if KDE didn't exist, it wouldn't mean that all KDE developers would be working on Gnome - because those developers in all probability still wouldn't want to work on Gnome (and may work on a totally unrelated project). KDE and Gnome both exist because not all developers want to work on KDE and not all developers want to work on Gnome. The disappearance of one or the other wouldn't necessarily mean that developers from the one project would work on the other.

The set of all developers is not necessarily the same as the set of developers who are prepared to work on project $FOO.

Re:What is the platform? (5, Insightful)

Starker_Kull (896770) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462801)

I encourage more competition for Linux. A free market is built on competition. Now that Microsoft is becoming a competitor rather than an oppressive regime, it'll be naturally selected out and increasingly powerful Unix systems will dominate the market. A Linux monopoly is not a good thing either, and whether BSDs or Solaris share the market, we all stand to benefit.

Your faith in Microsoft being 'naturally selected out' is.... amusing. Considering, after years of barely adequate products, they still have 90% plus marketshare of desktops, and last I checked, they were still oppressing various standards bodies, hardware manufacturers, small software houses, etc., I think the corpse is still walking around, talking FUD, and otherwise making a nuisance of itself. The Linux Monopoly you fear is... a bit far-fetched just yet, IMHO. When I start seeing KDE desktops in some of the small offices I walk into, then I'll believe it.

Of course, this move by Sun is to try and make that happen; many non-computer people like 'simplicity', in the sense of getting everything from one computer vendor with minimum fuss on their part, assuming that things will work together more smoothly then. So, Sun offers a machine running OpenSolaris, with StarOffice preinstalled, as well as a really fast JVM. Worth a shot...

Re:What is the platform? (4, Insightful)

setagllib (753300) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463091)

Why do you think Microsoft is scrambling for OOXML standardization? Because the document format lockin is a huge, huge part of Microsoft's monopoly strategy. If they're forced to be an equal player in the office suite space, making Office largely replaceable, then Windows is largely replaceable too. When Linux + KDE + Firefox + OpenOffice.org can replace a Windows + Office + IE setup with lower costs, minimal training and solid vendor support (Canonical, Red Hat, ...), how much incentive is there to run Windows any more?

Gradually the government switches, corporations switch, and finally users switch. The numbers indicate it's happening anyway, and the format war is just going to nail the coffin on Microsoft's monopoly. They never even had a monopoly on servers, gaming technology, etc. so the office is their last stand, and in a matter of days it will be confirmed that they have lost that too.

And of course, as the demand for Linux installations grows, and more vendors sell pre-packaged Linux, then hardware contracts will also require useful drivers or even documentation, and the hardware situation will be largely solved too. Sit back and relax, freedom has won and the liberation continues as planned.

Re:What is the platform? (1)

edittard (805475) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462621)

Sun's interest in pushing two separate platforms is baffling.
You could at least try to live up to your name. Sun's action is like a shoe factory that also makes landmines. Something like that.

Re:What is the platform? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20463171)

Im not going to check who the parent poster is but let me guess: BadAnalogyGuy? Anyway, thanks, you broke my brain.

Sun and what army? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20462577)

I admit that I don't know much about Solaris, but is their community comparable to those in the Linux camps?

Re:Sun and what army? (1)

Nossie (753694) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462637)

I'd say that Solaris does have a comparable community following to a popular linux distro such as RH, mandriva or suse.

I do however find it hard to believe Solaris can take on Linux as a whole and come out tops.

Good luck to them however, if they dont play any MS scare tactics I'll be glad to have them as another viable competitor to Linux. I've not really had that much joy with Solaris personally, but like Novel I respect their roots and believe that if any big iron corporation can do an IBM then Sun can.

They are mostly the same anyway (1)

Alif (705217) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462587)

Linux and Solaris look about the same anyway - Gnome (or whatever), Firefox, Thuderbird (or whatever), Apache ...

Re:They are mostly the same anyway (1)

Bartas (929484) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462617)

you are confused with software that runs ontop of operating system and the operating system itself...

Re:They are mostly the same anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20462741)

You are confused with look vs work

Solaris (4, Insightful)

Borongo (794885) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462597)

The kind of Solaris penetration sun really wants is at the corporate
level. There are a lot of Sun Servers out there so they'd like to increase
that further in companies who want cheaper hardware than the sparcs.
From a TCO point of view, add Solaris X86 to your existing Sparcs isn't
that big of a deal and Sun has made pretty good progress in making Solaris
10 much more on equal footing with Sparc based Solaris so now you only
need admins who are expert at one OS, you've got easier compatibility
with your software etc. Then from there I see a push to companies who
don't use Sparc hardware.

This is basic Business 101 stuff.. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20462871)

I dont see Solaris having much of an impact, and here is why. Sun Micro makes most of their money by selling hardware, whereas their services market is quite low and I do not see this changing. If they are to push OpenSolaris onto average low cost machines and were successful, it would no doubt hurt their bottom line. Because of this, they will be forced to play both sides by saying that there is "Solaris" and then "OpenSolaris" essentually implying to the end user that one is inferior to the other. In the early days they probably will try to say that they are the same, but eventually it would seem that they would be forced to seperate them to create the perception of added value.

This to me seems obvious, but am I missing something here??

Re:This is basic Business 101 stuff.. (4, Interesting)

Ajehals (947354) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463213)

If OpenSolaris sees adoption on low end machines, it would provide an incentive to enterprise level customers to go the whole hog and buy Sun hardware to run it on. What could be better from a corporate point of view than having a single vendor to go to for all your support and other issues, not to mention that my experience of Sun support is pretty damn good.

Re:Solaris (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462977)

From a TCO point of view, add Solaris X86 to your existing Sparcs isn't
that big of a deal and Sun has made pretty good progress in making Solaris
10 much more on equal footing with Sparc based Solaris so now you only
need admins who are expert at one OS, you've got easier compatibility
with your software etc.
No way. Solaris X86 doesn't add any more compatibility with Solaris apps than what Linux already brings to the table. Solaris SPARC apps have to be recompiled to run on either Solaris X86 or Linux -- doesn't matter which. Admins skilled on Solaris don't need much more expertise to be skilled on Linux, as Solaris is the closest OS to GNU/Linux of any other UNIX-like OS except perhaps FreeBSD. Solaris X86 and Solaris SPARC have enough differences to make Solaris X86 somewhat of a similar learning curve for Solaris SPARC admins as compared to Linux and Solaris SPARC.

Really, I don't see any value add for using Solaris X86 over Linux, even on Sun X86 hardware.

"Isn't it all a bit late?" (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20462607)

I don't think so, but then again, I'm still holding out for an Amiga comeback.

It's rarely ever too late (5, Interesting)

inflex (123318) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462629)

Consider MS with IE and then Mozilla with Firefox.

MS Word vs WordPerfect 5.1

What about Linux, itself was probably considered "too late" or such at the time "Everything's been invented/done".

What about when Redhat was top dog - who'd have thought that Ubuntu would come along and change a lot of things.

The point is, it's [almost] never too late, just sometimes you have a harder job ahead of you.

Re:It's rarely ever too late (4, Interesting)

javilon (99157) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462661)

yes, and there is something that solaris has that linux doesnt. ZFS.

If zfs is not ported to linux due to license problems, Ill install solaris on my home file/backup server.

LOL (0)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462733)

oh, please do. ZFS still has issues (mostly minor, but issues, none the less), like anything that is fairly new. With that said, do you believe that Linux is not working on new FS's that take it on? Since you do, please jump.

Re:It's rarely ever too late (1)

IckySplat (218140) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462955)

http://www.wizy.org/wiki/ZFS_on_FUSE [wizy.org]
Works ok on x86, sparc(Linux) version is there but had some problems
a few version back, Haven't checked the latest build so the sparc(Linux) version
might be ok now.

Enjoy!

Re:It's rarely ever too late (3, Insightful)

Alioth (221270) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463209)

ZFS is irrelevant to the desktop user, though. (How many desktop users care what filesystem they have?)

However, a stable kernel ABI - which Linux doesn't have - is FAR more important, as it means hardware manufacturers are far more likely to release drivers for your platform that can just be installed with the hardware. If Solaris on the desktop started outnumbering Linux on the desktop, my bets would be it would have everything to do with hardware manufacturers being able to ship a driver for $random_hardware, and little to do with ZFS.

Linux/*BSD: not beholden to Sun for a reason. (1)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463241)

There's something that Linux, and some of the BSD's have that Sun insists on not having - a wide range of hardware support. Sure, it's not going to run on the Sun3 easily, but non-Ultra sun4's that can take the load aren't beholden to bmc giving them the HCL blessing.

Re:It's rarely ever too late (1)

fymidos (512362) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462759)

Timing is important though, 8-10 years ago this move would have changed the world. But at this point, i just don't see it...

Re:It's rarely ever too late (1)

epistemiclife (1101021) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462973)

I agree. It is certainly not too late, when one considers that Linux has just caught up to Windows 98 in terms of current operating system installed base. Additionally, considering the shifting dynamics of operating systems, with things like Mac OS gaining marketshare against Windows every day, I would agree that "it's never too late." It certainly wasn't too late for Java to gain widespread usage, even when C++ was quite well-established.

Interestingly, I installed Solaris in a VM just last week (I use a Mac), since our graduate CS department at Emory uses SanRay computers.

unix, funny name (1)

namekuseijin (604504) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462631)

unix, unique, union... nothing more detached from the truth: Unix companies are always fighting each other, building conflicting standards, and letting the real enemy safely escape...

Re:unix, funny name (2, Funny)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462671)

and letting the real enemy safely escape...

The Judean People's Front?

Re:unix, funny name (2, Funny)

supersnail (106701) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462777)

No its the Peoples Front for Judea

Re:unix, funny name (2, Funny)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462863)

Wait a moment, I thought we were the People's Front for Judea?

Re:unix, funny name (3, Funny)

IckySplat (218140) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462915)

Splitter!

Re:unix, funny name (2, Funny)

JudeanPeople'sFront (729601) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463159)

Bloody Romans!

What can Sun bring to the table? (3, Insightful)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462633)

What can Sun Micro Systems bring to the table that rest of the Linux could not? Its name, some kind of relationships with corporations and provide "not a bunch of amateurs in their spare time, this OS is backed by professionals" kind of sales talk. But that niche is already occupied by IBM. As for SUNW's vaunted professionalism, they fumbled the lead they had in unix and are struggling to keep up. As for their corporate vision, these guys never realized until it was too late, that Windows OS was the loss leader, in grocery store parlance, and the real deal is the vendor lock in office documents, email addresses and calender applicaions. MSFT might have fumbled many balls and lacked vision on the technical side of the market, but when it comes to business side, MSFT has been nothing less than visionary in gunning for monopoly and achieving it. Now SUNW is going to take on Linux? yawn. Nothing to see here, move along, folks.

XFS (1)

gvc (167165) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462699)

Try this on yer a-ver-age Linux system:

bash-3.2$ df
Filesystem kbytes used avail capacity Mounted on
zpool1 17193093120 39 17193092990 1% /zpool1

Re:XFS (1)

pyite (140350) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462751)

Judging by the zpool there, I think you meant to say ZFS, not XFS. ;-)

Sure, XFS (3, Interesting)

Junta (36770) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462933)

I can do XFS too (I know you made a mistake, and mean ZFS). However, I will point out:
$df -h .
Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /mnt/t/something 16T 1.1M 16T 1% /mnt/t/t
$df -k .
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on /mnt/t/something 17100669952 1056 17100668896 1% /mnt/t/t

I just ran this on my laptop (an 'average' system, though I assume your system with 16 TB of storage is not really 'average'. I too can have big block devices with a single filesystem, big deal. Go commercial, ala GPFS and you can do bigger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_s ystems). I just have a hard time having enough storage to build such a filesystem. The biggest real block device (not sparse) I have readily available not on GPFS is an 8 TB ext3 filesystem.

ZFS's power is not the filesystem size. It unifies a lot of things historically in different layers. I.e. software raid, storage pools, dynamic new filesystems, long term snapshotting. Most of these can be done without ZFS, but the creating filesystems and long-term snapshotting can be done with such ease and efficiency when all the 'layers' work together, and that is what ZFS brings to the table. I will say ext3cow would give me the single feature that most appeals to me about ZFS, and the rest I can do using LVM and such.

In the end, ZFS is the single point that tempts me in general about Solaris, but I'm not about to jump platforms when I know enough 'tricks' to get 'good enough' out of my existing platform.

Re:Sure, XFS (2, Insightful)

Eivind Eklund (5161) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463067)

In the end, ZFS is the single point that tempts me in general about Solaris, but I'm not about to jump platforms when I know enough 'tricks' to get 'good enough' out of my existing platform.
I hear and understand you.

So does everybody that use Windows.

Eivind.

Good! (1)

drolli (522659) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462643)

That is the right spirit. I like to have a choice and i think linux can only get better by being in a more direct comparison with solaris. However, since i am conservative i will run linux on my laptop for some more years and i believe many other will do the same.

How can we lose? (2, Interesting)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462647)

I was first going to write a blurb saying "Great! How can we lose! Let the best OS win!"

But on second thought, I can think of one bad scenario: OpenSolaris and Linux end up with different groups of users, where-as they previously would have mostly used Linux. This makes it harder for *either* open-source OS to get enough market share to attract ISVs, manufacturers writing device drivers, etc.

I guess the best of both worlds is if Linux and OpenSolaris kind of merge, resulting in a single OS with the strengths of both (for example, the goodness of getting dtrace into Linux).

Re:How can we lose? (2, Insightful)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462711)

But would the people who would have used GNU/Linux have all used Ubuntu?

Or would some of them have used Fedora, and some SuSE*, and some Slackware, and some...

Really, you don't need Solaris to fragment the base. It's also worth mentioning that back when I used BSD, I had no problems with the fact GNU/Linux had the marketshare and all the binaries because pretty much everything only available in binary form, from RealPlayer to Netscape, "just worked" with COMPAT_LINUX. Unlike, say, Windows via WINE, it's extremely easy to provide the same APIs across multiple Unix clones as long as they support the same underlying architecture. I have no idea of Solaris already has Linux ABI and GNU/Linux API support, but if fragmentation poses a real problem I don't doubt it'll be added.

Re:How can we lose? (3, Informative)

mdhoover (856288) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462953)

I have no idea of Solaris already has Linux ABI and GNU/Linux API support
BrandZ (or whatever it has been rebadged as) lets you run RH linux userspace in a solaris zone on x86...

No, I don't think it's too late at all (2, Insightful)

pomakis (323200) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462649)

Isn't it all a bit late?

No, I don't think it's too late at all. If it's a decent operating system and has certain advantages over Linux (regardless as to whether or not Linux in turn has certain other advantages over it), then it will eventually catch on. In the world of software, it's never too late to introduce competing technologies.

Sure it is fscking late ! (5, Interesting)

udippel (562132) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462657)

(Just missed the FP, but still)
this chance was missed a few times. The last one was when Nexenta was treated like a mother-in-law.
If SUN wanted acceptance instead of l33t, GPL(v3) would have been the order of the day.
As long as they dangle about with CDDL, they might as well pass away. Don't get me wrong, CDDL ('cuddle') is quite a good FOSS licence. But it has its problems with a coexistence side-by-side to GPL. And GNU is, love it or hate it, thousands of great applications; and moreover a licence accepted by the majority of FOSS developers.

I hope(d) Ian would have the power to apt-ing Solaris, but he doesn't seem to. And when you read the OpenSolaris lists, you find as much ego-tripping as on OpenBSD or Mac. They rather sink with pkgadd.
And I cry for them, yes, because SunOS is the greatest kernel around, with limited hardware support. Back to licencing and square one.

Re:Sure it is fscking late ! (1)

mdhoover (856288) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462837)

They rather sink with pkgadd
LOL, give me pkgadd over rpm etc any day of the year Nice to be able to find exactly where a file on your OS came from with a simple grep filename /var/sadm/install/contents Plus packaging up anything is a breeze...

Re:Sure it is fscking late ! (2, Insightful)

LarsWestergren (9033) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462895)

If SUN wanted acceptance instead of l33t, GPL(v3) would have been the order of the day.

How could they have chosen this as the license already when it was finalized just a few months ago?

GPLv3 is their big chance (1)

ivan256 (17499) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463001)

The embedded space is where Linux is most widely accepted but with the (harmless in reality) anti-Tivoization clauses in the GPLv3, and the amazing levels of FUD that IP lawyers are dumping on CTOs everywhere to get more billable hours, embedded device makers are getting more and more scared of anything GPL. If the kernel goes GPLv3, Linux will lose a majority of that market whether the worries are well-founded or not. If Sun plays it's cards right (there's a first time for everything), they could pick up a lot of that market.

Re:Sure it is fscking late ! (1)

jimicus (737525) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463047)

Solaris isn't really being aimed at the hobbyist crowd.

Most major Linux developments these days are sponsored, and so I would expected it to be with OpenSolaris.

Re:Sure it is fscking late ! (3, Insightful)

Eivind Eklund (5161) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463093)

No, the GPL has the problem of co-existing in the same app as CDDL.

Place blame where it belongs - GPL is the one bringing the heavy restrictions creating license incompatibility with EVERYTHING that cannot be converted directly to the GPL (including all BSD style licenses, if you do an exact reading of the GPL and BSD licenses.)

Eivind.

MS says Zune is doing great! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20462663)

'There's an enormous momentum building behind Solaris,' according to Ian Murdock, chief operating platforms officer at Sun.

It would mean so much more if someone outside of Sun said that.

I remember when they opened the source (2, Insightful)

ylikone (589264) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462667)

I remember when Solaris was going open source and everybody was saying how they would over take Linux... well, it hasn't happened... not even close. So why the optimism from Sun now?

Re:I remember when they opened the source (4, Insightful)

E-Lad (1262) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462847)

So what you're saying that you expected it to happen overnight?

I recall people saying similar things, only about Linux, back in the 90s. "Linux is the next big thing", Pundits and advocates trumpeted "Corporations will move to Linux as their preferred server/service platform", and so on. That pretty much did happen, but it took the better part of a decade to realize it. It took the one thing that a not even the most talented coders can't create during an all-night coding binge: Time.

OpenSolaris is a hair over 2 years old now. If you think about it, most decently sized shops change out comodity infrastructure every 3-4 years, a time frame pimarily goverened by hardware warranties. If an organization says "Let's try another OS the next time around... lets try Solaris" then the proper time to do that would be consumate with normal upgrade cycles. In other words, no one can reasonably expect one thing (Solaris in this case) to massively gain meaningful, measurable share instantly. It takes time. Just like it did with Linux.

Not too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20462687)

Not too late. IMO, the real important thing here is that a company is willing to spend money and time to develope a product and that they are not using a fragmented Open Source model, that in my opinion, does more bad than good. Concentrating in a product will often lead to better results (OSX, BeOS, Windows) are examples of closed source OS that are in many fields superior to almost every Linuzz distro out there. The key, IMO is non-fragmented Open Source approach. Many will here disagree with me, and that's OK, I'm a BIG Open Source skeptic.

Too late, too irrelevant (0, Flamebait)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462695)

Java? Wide uptake? Surely, you jest.

I see how much Sun loves Java -- they rename everything to "Java This" or "Java That", like, an ancient version of Gnome they ship suddenly became "Java Desktop", their stock ticker is now JAVA instead of SUNW, but this doesn't mean Java means anything more than another pet language of choice. Python, Tcl, Ruby, etc, etc -- they do have their use, have their own niche following, but neither is well-fit for a client language.

Java tried this, and failed. It's quite rare now to see any client programs written in Java; it's a bad idea to install a huge framework just for a single program (yeah, Azureus, but that's pretty much the only big one), and Sun doesn't have as much clout as Microsoft, so there's no pushing .NET in the core OS. Java is quite widely used as a scripting language for web servers, but this doesn't make it any more important than PHP (bleh), ASP (bleh*2) or anything of the kind -- everyone uses what he feels most comfortable with, and Sun invested quite a lot into pushing Java into schools.

For Solaris, they slept for the last ~10 years, I'm afraid. Having met a couple of Solaris servers then, and having taken a look at their much-hyped gratis mailings, I hardly see any difference. On the other hand, getting used to a new version of a Linux or even BSD distribution makes you feel like the older one is all musty, obsolete and unusable.

Oh, and Sun still didn't put a POSIX-compatible shell as /bin/sh

Java is *the* business language (2, Informative)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462779)

Java? Wide uptake? Surely, you jest.
Most server based business development is done in Java these days. It's replacing COBOL as the business language.

 

Re:Java is *the* business language (1, Insightful)

supersnail (106701) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462827)

At the moment but there is a technicaly superior and easier to use and more reliable platform available:- .NET

And big business is taking it seriously. Lots of feasibility studies and pilot projects at the
moment but thats how java started off.

Plus java on the mainframe has been tried and found wanting, big iron developers are returning to COBOL
and good old C.

Java is tomorows legacy language.

Re:Too late, too irrelevant (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20462795)

Not a client language? They put Javascript in every browser, which is the basis of the Web 2.0, and that is changing everything. It is obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

Re:Too late, too irrelevant (0, Redundant)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463179)

Not a client language? They put Javascript in every browser
Wrong emphasis. It's Javascript, not Javascript. It has nothing to do with Java except for Sun pushing the Java trademark everywhere, it's not compatible with Java, doesn't look like Java, doesn't smell like Java and, most important, doesn't require Java.

which is the basis of the Web 2.0, and that is changing everything.
Yeah, I admit, Javascript is the only extant widely-deployed client web language. Lots of folk, me included, boycott anything even remotely related to Flash, client-side Java is a bad joke, attempts to put Tcl in JavaScript's place are almost forgotten now (except for HTML4 still requiring explicit <script language=javascript> to make validators happy), ActiveX is fortunately on its way out, and SilverLight faces people who by now should recognize crap when they see it

It is obvious you don't know what you're talking about.
It is obvious that Sun's marketing machine managed to confuse you about relations of Java and Javascript. Score 1 for them.

Re:Too late, too irrelevant (3, Informative)

LarsWestergren (9033) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462853)

Java? Wide uptake? Surely, you jest.

No [tiobe.com] , hardly.

It's quite rare now to see any client programs written in Java;

Not in the business world, where Swing clients are probably second only after Visual Basic. Sun is also currently putting a lot of effort into improving the JVM desktop experience [java.net] .

Re:Too late, too irrelevant (1)

Cronopios (313338) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462995)

it's a bad idea to install a huge framework just for a single program

Yep, but after the opensourcing of Java, I see a bright future for gcj and classpath.

Re:Too late, too irrelevant (2, Interesting)

Marcus Green (34723) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463223)

According to Johnathan Schwartz of Sun
".. Java runs on more devices than Microsoft Windows, Linux, Solaris, Symbian and the Mac combined. Nearly 4 billion devices at this point, from smart cards to consumer devices, DVD players to set top boxes, medical equipment, all the way up into the majority of the world's transactional systems and 8 out of every 10 cellphones sold."
http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/fueling_the_ne twork_effect [sun.com]

sun's newclear power repels unprecedented evile (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20462703)

it's both a fairytail & whoreabull malady @once?

previously (dis)allowed post(s):

many of US never look up (or ever really see anything)
(Score:?)
by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 03, @09:34PM
too busy getting somewhere? we could still afford to pay attention, as it is cost effective, & time efficient.

it's not as though we weren't already being treated to more misinformation than we could ever disbelieve.

infactdead corepirate nazis still WAY off track
(Score:-1, Offtopic)
by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 01, @09:35AM (#20433195)
it's only a matter of time/space/circumstance.

previous post:
mynuts won 'off t(r)opic'???
(Score:-1, Offtopic)
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 30, @10:22AM (#20411119)
eye gas you could call this 'weather'?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8004881114 646406827 [google.com]

be careful, the whack(off)job in the next compartment may be a high RANKing corepirate nazi official.

previous post:
whoreabull corepirate nazi felons planning trips
(Score: mynuts won, robbIE's 'secret' censorship score)
by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 01, @12:13PM (#20072457)
in orbit perhaps? we wouldn't want to be within 500 miles of the naykid furor at this power point.

better days ahead?

as in payper liesense hypenosys stock markup FraUD felons are on their way out? what a revolutionary concept.

from previous post: many demand nazi execrable stop abusing US

we the peepoles?

how is it allowed? just like corn passing through a bird's butt eye gas.

all they (the felonious execrable) want is... everything. at what cost to US?

for many of US, the only way out is up.

don't forget, for each of the creators' innocents harmed (in any way) there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/US as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile will not be available after the big flash occurs.

'vote' with (what's left in) yOUR wallet. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious life0cidal glowbull warmongering execrable.

some of US should consider ourselves very fortunate to be among those scheduled to survive after the big flash/implementation of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate.

it's right in the manual, 'world without end', etc....

as we all ?know?, change is inevitable, & denying/ignoring gravity, logic, morality, etc..., is only possible, on a temporary basis.

concern about the course of events that will occur should the ife0cidal execrable fail to be intervened upon is in order.

'do not be dismayed' (also from the manual). however, it's ok/recommended, to not attempt to live under/accept, fauxking greed/fear/ego based pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking hypenosys.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators. providing more than enough of everything for everyone (without any distracting/spiritdead personal gain motives), whilst badtolling unprecedented evile, using an unlimited supply of newclear power, since/until forever. see you there?

yay! (1)

thatskinnyguy (1129515) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462715)

As long as ZFS is a feature of Open Solaris, count me in!

Java popular? (1)

Wowsers (1151731) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462727)

Java is popular... let's check out that 64-bit Sun Java plug-in for Firefox on Linux, oh wait, it doesn't exist.

Re:Java popular? (1)

squoozer (730327) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462879)

While I too have waited and waited for 64bit Java plugin you mention I struggle to penalize Sun for not producing it. Up until recently the adoption of 64 bit was very low in the home market - the only market that uses the plug-in really. What little adoption there was was mostly Linux as well thus reducing the market further. There was just no scope for making any money or even winning wide spread praise for producing the plug-in and hence no business case for it. If you want to have a crack at Sun for Java why not try the way they did virtually nothing with the language until .net started providing interesting new features. If you don't like that one how about the fact that they provide really nice looking specifications or some interesting stuff and then pretty much abandon them with (generally) at best a poor reference implimentation (e.g. JSF)

Oh... (1)

durin (72931) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462731)

I thought it said "OpenSolaris Will Change Linux" first. But then again, that may also be true.

Futurama FTW (1)

Synthaxx (1138473) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462739)

"Well yes, in the same way an infant may challenge Muhammed Ali!"

The Worst Job in the World (1)

SimHacker (180785) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462763)

Subject: The Worst Job in the World
From: Michael Tiemann <tiemann@cygnus.com>
Date: A long time ago in a galaxy far far away...

I have a friend who has to have the worst job in the world: he is a Unix system administrator. But it's worse than that, as I will soon tell.

Being a Unix system administrator is like being a tech in a biological warfare laboratory, except that none of the substances are labeled consistently, any of the compounds are just as likely to kill you by themselves as they are when mixed with one another, and it is never clear what distinction is made between a catastrophic failure in the lab and a successful test in the field.

But I don't want to tell you about biological warfare, I want to tell you about what makes my friend's job so terrible. First, some context.

The training for Unix system administration is a frightening process. When machines start dying, users start screaming, and everything grinds to a halt, the novice feels the cold fingers of terror clutching about his heart.

#!/bin/sh
# this doesn't work, but no time to fix it -- hope nothing crashes
progname=$0

But if one stays the course, one might some day achieve the dubious satisfaction of being able to mutter "at least I know why it broke!".

#!/bin/sh
# This works...I wonder if it will get me laid
progname="`echo $0 | sed 's:^\./\./:\./:'`"

But there are many who must dwell in this miasma both day and night. What makes my friend's job so ugly is that he doesn't only work with just any strain of Unix -- he works with Solaris. And he doesn't just deal with just any braindead users -- his users are the executives at Sun Microsystems.

Let me tell you about Sun Microsystems. At Sun, there's a long history of executives playing pranks on one another. For April Fools, these rowdies would play tricks like putting a golf course (complete with putting green) in Scott McNealy's office, or floating Bill Joy's Ferrari in one of the landscaped ponds. Things have come a long way since then. Now every day is April Fools, and my friend doesn't like it one bit.

VP: "Admin!! What the fuck is this thing running on my machine?"

Admin: "It's Solaris, sir."

VP: "Get it off of my machine at once!"

Admin: "But sir, Ed Zander told me that you should be running Solaris now."

VP: "Zander, huh? I'll fix him. Is he running Solaris?"

Admin: "No sir."

VP: "Why not?"

Admin: "If he ran Solaris, he wouldn't be able to get any work done."

VP: "Very well, restore my machine to SunOS, and put this Solaris crap on Zander's machine."

Admin: "But sir..."

VP: "That's an order! And tell him Scott gave you the directive himself!"

Admin: "Yes, sir."

Zander: "Admin!! What the fuck is this thing running on my machine?"

Admin: "It's Solaris, sir."

Zander: "Get it off of my machine at once!"

Admin: "But sir, Scott McNealy told me that you should be running Solaris now."

Zander: "McNealy, huh? I'll fix him. Is he running Solaris?"

...

The only thing worse that being a Unix system administrator is doing the job for ungrateful users.

Re:The Worst Job in the World (1)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463123)

I don't get it.

fine (2, Insightful)

SolusSD (680489) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462807)

as long as Linux distros and Solaris play nice together. An open source solaris can only be good for the OSS community as a whole and will hopefully guarentee compatibility

Solaris has known stability... (3, Insightful)

TooTechy (191509) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462835)

Solaris has known stability in certain supportable configurations. Linux supposedly does too. I know that statement will get a lot of hackles raised but just hold on. I am a continuous Linux user since 0.99pl8 and I love it. But, as time moves on I see some instabilities creeping in as complexity rises and hardware moves on.

One of my boxes downstairs, a recent machine (less than 6 months old) running stock Debian (amd64) without a mod to the sources.lst has a slight instability (almost certainly in a driver) and crashes every week or so.

Now, one could say that I should replace the hardware which has the suspect driver (always seems to be on a disk access). Or I should get on the Debian lists and report it. If it was a Sun Solaris box I would know that the hardware I had was (or was not) supported. The word 'Supported' in the Linux world really (I am sorry) does not mean as much as it does to Sun.

Now I have other Linux boxen, (a little older) which have uptimes of over a year. No problems. But on odd occasions as this I would like to have stability and I can't find it. (Read, maybe don't have the time at the moment). And I need the box UP. I can't rebuild it AGAIN! I am on the 6th distro in an attempt to gain stability. That's an aside.

In Sun's world. You pay a little more for your hardware and 'Know' it is going to work.

I could not case less for Solaris,... (2, Interesting)

Tanuki64 (989726) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462845)

...or *BSD, or Linux. I am working with Linux, I am developing under Linux. My programs compile for *BSD and for Linux. I am pretty sure they would compile and run as fine under Solaris. So why am I using Linux? It has the best driver support, the best documentation, the best software support. Would I change when *BSD or Solaris get the same quality of support? No, why should I? They have to be better and solve at least one problem, I have with Linux. Currently I have no problems with it. Would I change if there was a problem, which one of the others solve? At once. As I said, I could not care less, which one of the three I use.

So please could anyone tell me, what are the USP's of Solaris?

Solaris as Hypervisor for Linux VMs? (2, Interesting)

tji (74570) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462861)

After looking at newer Solaris offerings, one thing that struck me as a good option is to use Solaris as my Host/Hypervisor OS, and use Linux within Xen VMs on top of Solaris. You get Solaris advantages at the root { ZFS, Solaris Zones, Stable Unix platform, good management tools } while still running any instances of Linux I want, enclosing my services in lightweight Linux VMs.

Last time I checked, Xen was not fully ready for prime time on Solaris. But, that was quite a while ago. If it's Xen is stable, and has good management tools, Solaris would make a good hypervisor. For security reasons, I think it's also nice to have different OS's in the hypervisor and VMs -- making it less likely a single exploit can rip through all layers.

Re:Solaris as Hypervisor for Linux VMs? (1)

E-Lad (1262) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462907)

In that case, you may want to bookmark the following and check in on it regularly: Xen at OpenSolaris.org [opensolaris.org]

Isn't it all a bit late?" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20462873)

Ha ha, that's why I read Slashdot, for the humor. There's room enough for a lot of OSes, that's why Windows is still everywhere, why people aren't interested in installing somethng over the top of it.

Got to go, I have a client who wants me to tattoo "Ubuntu" on his ass. Thinks it's gonna get him laid.

Oh, really? (1)

HangingChad (677530) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462925)

There's an enormous momentum building behind Solaris

And where's that? In the Sun break room? Look out! It's a Solaris Tsunami!

Don't think so.

It's NEVER TOO LATE because..... (1)

Danathar (267989) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462939)

Nobdy expects the Spanish INQUISITION!

Bad Article Title (1)

kildurin (938538) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462941)

I think the author of the article needs to reread what he wrote. He is the one thinking that Solaris is set to take on Linux. I believe that is not correct nor do I believe that it is Sun's direction. In several key places in the article, they are offering Solaris as an "alternative" to Linux. Sun offers Linux and Windows on their servers. I did not read anywhere that they are setting up to take on Linux directly and I am betting they hope to do things as well as Linux has done them. They are way too late to take on Linux.

Re:Bad Article Title (1)

E-Lad (1262) | more than 7 years ago | (#20462997)

I must say that I agree. TFA seems a bit scatterbrained... as if someone tried to take a summary and streach it into a two-pager. It never really touches on the meat of why Solaris could to x to Linux.

2 powers houses (2, Interesting)

JeremyGNJ (1102465) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463045)

Windows + .NET
Open Solaris + Java
Linux + ????

Basically leaves Linux as the bastard step-child with no framework of their own. They kind of have MONO...and they DO have java....but how long til "incompatibilities" start popping up, now that Sun is pushing into the OS market?

Not convinced... (2, Informative)

Junta (36770) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463053)

Sun has done an excellent job of astroturfing. I know a lot of technical people who have tried it once again, and got the 'neat' factor of ZFS, was not that impressed with DTrace (we know how to do most of this sort of stuff in linux already), and containers, well, are nothing unique to the platform. So ZFS remains the cool thing that, while Linux has facilities to kinda-sorta get there, can't get there as smoothly and flexibly. Meanwhile, they were bitten by a distinct lack of drivers, and their random whitebox platform they used to evaluate was being strangely flaky in the face of Solaris when it seemed solid with Linux.

So on the technical front, there remain kinks to work out. In the meantime, Linux has incredible momentum, incredible talent in the market, and from a business standpoint, is in an advantageous position. Linux has more corporate backing (you want serious software support for Solaris, you have only Sun to choose really, while in Linux, well, at least Novell and RedHat are serious software support contenders, and more hardware vendors embrace Linux than Solaris).

The other sad thing was the Solaris platform package management. Nexenta was a refreshing thing to evaluate, but looking at the community at large it seems Nexenta gets the shaft. It's all up to Indiana to see if they can pull off a well-accepted, decent package/repository system. I have to admit, this is by *far* the biggest thing Linux platforms have going for it (apt/yum) and very much outweighs the benefits of ZFS (it's like apples and oranges, true, but when you have to pick one or the other...). Of course, the Nexenta situation points to them not pursuing the other thing they need to be a Linux contender, they'd have to allow other companies to have control and be able to provide software support on their own without any help or money exchange with Sun themselves. The question is if they did that, would Sun's share of the Solaris market still be more than the current Solaris market in the face of a dominant Linux market, and I really have no idea. They might just have to lose out on Solaris to make it have a chance, and that really gets them nowhere. It's a fine line to walk and it wil be interesting to see what they do to try to pull it off.

Division is not good. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 7 years ago | (#20463089)

Back when linus released linux as open/free software, there were no other choices for a free operating system:

- Minix had switched policy to 160$ for the diskettes.
- The BSDs said that they were going to go free, but the board of directors didn't want to lose potential profits and that was constantly delayed.
- MS-DOS is not an operating system.

We were in a deadend. Linux was the right thing at the time.

*After* linux took off, the others got scared and as a *reaction* to linux, started giving out open/free operating systems. The BSD alliance in fact went for "totally free -- you can rip it off and sell it and never give back".

But the thing is, all these moved happened in REACTION to linux. We wasted a lot of time and money hacking device drivers for linux without any documentation. Now that our efforts have succeeded they want us to give it up and go fix Solaris bugs and write device drivers for it? Or fragment the community of hackers?

Sorry. Been there, done that. Too late now.

It's not going to take over anytime soon... (1)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463119)

Given their haphazard application of their HCL (sun4m - need I say more) and the cutting out of perfectly usable sparcstations (no dtrace and crippled KCF is fine enough tyvm), it's left a sour bit in more than just a few.

Re:It's not going to take over anytime soon... (1)

E-Lad (1262) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463265)

It's not going to take over anytime soon because Solaris dropped support for hardware that has been EOL'd for 10 and more years? The future is forward, not reverse. Solaris isn't looking to court the computer museum curators of the world.

SUN is horrible on the desktop (1)

emj (15659) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463165)

It works sure, but it is no where close to a Windows desktop, and far behind Linux Desktops. You would think they would have solved printing in some nice way but not even that is available.

Though their Sun Ray clients are easy on the administrator and the best on the market, you just got to love a thin client with two monitors at 1920x1200 (Sun Ray 2FS) [sun.com] . They are also pretty ceap $200 - $600.

"...uptake already enjoyed by Java" (1)

ilovegeorgebush (923173) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463181)

So that means they'll create a successful product that's bloated, overly strict, and was open-sourced too late? Perhaps OpenSolaris has the advantage being that it has had a decent amount of attention since its source opening, but the comparison to Java should stop there.

Personally, I already think Java's becoming obsolete [beplacid.net] , but I don't see the same fate for OpenSolaris.

Sounds good to me.. (4, Interesting)

target562 (623649) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463251)

...After years of migrating most of our datacenter operations from Solaris & IRIX environment to Linux, we have pretty much migrated everything back to Solaris. Reasons? Cost - Solaris licenses are free. Support is good, and also relatively inexpensive. Cheaper than RedHat Enterprise. Stability - We're talking interface stability, backwards compatability, etc. Storage - Linux's storage subsystems are still a joke. A hodgepodge of filesystems, and don't even get started on enterprise storage technologies such as fibre channel & multipathing, where the linux solution requires a spool of duct tape, a pack of chewing gum, and some string. Compatibility - Solarisx86 has had no problems running on any enterprise-grade server hardware (Dell, IBM, Sun). Many complain about Solaris not having the "driver base" of Linux -- but the question is, would you really want to run that hardware in your enterprise?

Yawn (2, Interesting)

Pecisk (688001) | more than 7 years ago | (#20463273)

Wake me up when Sun has:
* Has as much open drivers as Linux has;
* When it has ALSA (I know, it sucks sorta, but it works at least);
* When it has very vibrant and lively developer and user community;
* And when you don't have to release such PR to say 'momentum is building behind OpenSolaris'. I know hyping is sometimes quite cool, but it is just sick.

People hype about ZFS. But do really there are mass defection to OpenSolaris because of that? I don't.
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