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Indian Software Firm Outsourcing Jobs To US

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 6 years ago | from the turnabout-is-fair-play dept.

Businesses 444

phobos13013 writes "NPR is reporting Indian software maker Wipro is outsourcing positions to a development office opening in Atlanta, Georgia. Although it sounds good for US job growth, the implication is that firms outside the US appear to be dominating more and more in the global economy, even from developing and underdeveloped regions of the world. Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today."

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444 comments

Ah India. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509465)

Our greatest friend and ally!... After the UK, Australia, Canada, and of course Bosnia.

Re:Ah India. (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509639)

Our greatest friend and ally!... After the UK, Australia, Canada, and of course Bosnia.
Don't forget Poland!

http://www.goatse.cx - Just wasting your modpoint! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509643)

I have successfully wasted one modpoint. EXCELLENT!

qualified applicants? (5, Funny)

oni (41625) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509467)

large pool of qualified applicants in the market today

qualified. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

Re:qualified applicants? (2, Funny)

heelrod (124784) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509523)

Yea, I dont think I would use the word qualified.

But hey, with the way software gets crappier and crappier, I guess they are

Re:qualified applicants? (1, Insightful)

cromar (1103585) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509789)

Qualified to be payed 20k more than me while knowing less than me after being in the field longer than me and qualified to get promoted to another dept with higher salary. Qualified to write really shitty code I have to maintain^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hrewrite. (And, apparently, qualified to teach a C class once or twice - shudder.)

See, the word isn't misused, it's that the qualifications have little to do with skill or... anything besides politics and ignorance.

Re:qualified applicants? (5, Funny)

CaffeineAddict2001 (518485) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510425)

If you are going to outsource code, do it to someplace COLD. The Netherlands, Finland, Sweden, Russia, etc. All of those countries seem to have unusually large supply of good coders. The only problem is that you end up with functions like b0rk(B0rk *bork) { }

Hey, its not like.... (4, Interesting)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509469)

Hey, it's not like we didn't willingly give it all away...

We freely sent off our manufacturing, then our IT, and a good bit of agriculture. But thankfully, we still have a great service industry, lots of restaurants, etc. That'll keep us safe in times of financial/world troubles.

Re:Hey, its not like.... (1)

sznupi (719324) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509575)

It's not like it depends only on whether US decides, or not, to give it/something away.

This could be a new meme... (0, Offtopic)

Hanners1979 (959741) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509483)

In India, jobs outsource to you!

Or, as Scott Adams has put it.... (5, Funny)

DrYak (748999) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509755)

Dilbert is just visionnary :
  • strip 1 [blogger.com] (and here is some text to feed the spam filter)
  • strip 2 [blogger.com] (again some text to please the spam detector)
  • strip 3 [blogger.com] (sorry SlashCode : this isn't ads for viagra, these are actual dilbert strips)


Theories vs Facts (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509491)

Isn't it just a THEORY (i.e. not fact) that a "larger pool of qualified applicants" would hurt wages?

And isn't it just a THEORY (i.e. not a fact) that all this outsourcing (on either side) is supposed to HELP American workers?

When my wages get cut, that doesn't sound like it helps.

How about more facts, less theory.

Re:Theories vs Facts (4, Insightful)

JeanBaptiste (537955) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509567)

Its just a THEORY... just like EVOLUTION and GRAVITY

Market theory is well tested and proven...

Re:Theories vs Facts (3, Funny)

liquidpele (663430) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510089)

Market theory is based off statistics.
And we all know where statistics are in relation to lies and damned lies.

Re:Theories vs Facts (4, Insightful)

zeromorph (1009305) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510275)

You must be joking. Models in market theory are mostly oversimplified. Often to the extent that the results are useless for practical purposes.

Why do you think investments in stock markets are still a risky business? Because all the investors do not listen to the academia? If models and theory in physics would be that unreliable nuclear power plants would regularly go boom!

I love this game! (5, Funny)

Champ (91601) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509497)

U.S. companies outsourcing jobs to foreign countries: bad for the U.S.

Foreign companies outsourcing jobs to the U.S.: bad for the U.S.

Re:I love this game! (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509619)

U.S. companies outsourcing jobs to foreign countries: bad for the U.S.

Foreign companies outsourcing jobs to the U.S.: bad for the U.S.
Of course it doesn't actually mean what the editor's comments say. All we can really conclude is that the Indian company found labor more accessible and/or cheaper in the USA. Or has some totally irrational motive, for all we know.

Doesn't say anything about labor prices either. If it was outsourced because they couldn't find enough cheap labor in India, that's *good* news for wages.

Remember son, (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509939)

life is a struggle, and in order to survive, one must aim high. Remember: nothing in life is free.

- Fairlight: We Control

You missed one... (1)

StressGuy (472374) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510029)

US companies outsoucing jobs to Indian who THEN outsource back to the US ==> Bone-headed AND bad for the US

Re:I love this game! (1)

mabhatter654 (561290) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510405)

bad because it's work for other Foreign companies not growth by US companies. So even the "corporate masters" are foreign now!
But it is a good thing because US workers really do know their stuff as much as their bosses badmouth them. US workers still increase actual productivity faster than anyplace else they're just not "cheaper" when you front billions of dollars of new capital for new plants .... elsewhere.

We need more Engineers! (4, Funny)

Trojan35 (910785) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510485)

Last week on Slashdot: We don't have enough engineers! Should we subsidize those majors in college?
This week on Slashdot: Too many engineers! Salaries are falling!

Re:I love this game! (3, Insightful)

GnarlyDoug (1109205) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510501)

Pretty much. As funny as it sounds, both are bad, at least if they represent large scale trends. Option one means America's labor force is not competitive. The other means that the other countries now have first world economies, infrastructure, and most importantly that the dollar has become so weak that American labor is now cheap.



This is not a case of saying all news is bad news. These two items do not represent the only options. Both are flip-sides of America now being a bad place for capital investment. You can thank our massive beucracies, regulations, byzantine and high tax codes, and increasing Statist tendancies for that. Most of the capital investment is being put into foreign markets now because it can be grown more rapidly due to freer markets and less taxation. The engines of the global economy are less and less centered in the U.S. We are looking at becoming a low-wage work farm for the new economic powerhouses building up around the world. We'll all have jobs, just not good ones.

Why is this so surprising? (4, Insightful)

Judg3 (88435) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509529)

Seriously, why is this such a surprise to everyone? When you going a global economy, it's like opening a flood gate; initially there's a huge rush out (everyone outsources), then some smaller waves back (people demand more insourced jobs), then - well, then it all balances out (US Company A outsources to India, Indian Company B outsources to the US, Mexican company G outsources to the UK, UK Company L outsources to Oz, etc etc).

In fact, isn't this exactly what everyone was telling us would eventually happen 8 years ago? So shouldn't we have been expecting it?

Re:Why is this so surprising? (1)

The One and Only (691315) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510199)

Of course you are right. In fact, you are too right. Protectionists can no longer remain in denial that its happening, so they try to put a negative spin on it when it does happen. They may be right in one respect--the U.S. can't power over other countries economically--but I'm not interested in an international pissing contest.

Re:Why is this so surprising? (1)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510243)

initially there's a huge rush out (everyone outsources), then some smaller waves back (people demand more insourced jobs), then - well, then it all balances out

"out" indeed; just like farm work and automobile manufacturing.
         

Hardly. (0, Troll)

C10H14N2 (640033) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509555)


You can bet your paycheck they will be looking to hire a gaggle of H1-Bs they've already selected back home.

This ploy is not new.

Re:Hardly. (2, Interesting)

posterlogo (943853) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509909)

Hardly. Do you have any idea how hard it is nowadays for companies to apply for H1-Bs for workers? Given how limited the number of H1-Bs are every year, there is actually stiff competition for qualified workers. Considering the firm is planning to open up 500 jobs in the coming years it is impossible for more than a small fraction of these to be filled with H1-Bs, I seriously doubt your "ploy" is what this is all about. (Also consider that ONLY ~25% of H1-Bs are for Indians, whereas they actually have one of the largest pools of qualified applicants).


Moreover, you seem to think this is automatically bad. As a generally benign tax-paying and extremely low crime population, I hardly think Atlanta will suffer from inclusion of these H1-Bs.

RTFA, and consider using better language next time -- "gaggle", "ploy" -- just smacks of a snooty, condescending attitude.

Re:Hardly. (1)

Beyond_GoodandEvil (769135) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510257)

and consider using better language next time -- "gaggle", "ploy" -- just smacks of a snooty, condescending attitude.
As opposed to telling someone on the internet to use better language? Oh, the irony!

Re:Hardly. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510385)

Humm... And why a capitalistic company, not run by the State would do that? Is capitalism different in India? Do capitalists there will willingly increase their costs just to give a job on the US for some of their fellow contrymen?

Re:Hardly. (1)

phobos13013 (813040) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510465)

Actually, from the audio from the NPR story, Wipro stated that they will hire American employees because they have specialized knowledge to currents and trends in American markets. Also, because US programmers are typically better than other national counterparts! Although, this could be PR BS....

Here we go again (4, Funny)

Cro Magnon (467622) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509557)

Another story about outsourcing to 3rd world countries!

Re:Here we go again (1)

monkville (987042) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510133)

Hide!! Hide!!! Dont let the political correctness police get you. Nowadays, they call it Developing!!!!

<ballmer> (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510311)

Hide!! Hide!!! Dont let the political correctness police get you. Nowadays, they call it Developing!!!!

Developing! Developing!! Developing!!! Developing!!!!

</ballmer>

Large pools? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509587)

This sounds a bit weird "Large pool of qualified applicants in the market today". What large pools, there is a shortage of qualified applicants in the IT industry as a whole, or is this just in issulated areas of the world? In Denmark at least there is a HUGE shortage of qualified people, especially if your a softare developer.

Re:Large pools? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509685)

POOL'S CLOSED!

/. must outsource editorial positions to India (1, Redundant)

jkrise (535370) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509599)

Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnant or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today."

Stagnate, not stagnant.

Re:/. must outsource editorial positions to India (1)

HTH NE1 (675604) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510349)

I've taken to tagging these with (for this example) "typo !stagnant stagnate". Though maybe "typostagnate!stagnant" might be better if internal bangs were not rejected if prefix matched "typo".

Americans are very expensive (3, Insightful)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509603)

There is a LOT of bureaucracy to comply with, and a lot of countries are now offering simplified corporate taxes and regulations to boost interest in their economies. Eastern Europe is a very good example. Not only have many of those countries adopted flat corporate taxes, which cut down on the cost of compliance, and the rates are pretty low and getting lower. The last I heard, the total cost of compliance with our income tax, personal and corporate, is about $286B a year in lost productivity, added bureaucracy, etc. It's ironic, but ending the variable-rate (I'm loathe to call such a stupid system "progressive") income tax in the United States alone, and replacing it with a very simple flat tax would constitute a sweeping tax cut just in terms of the resources freed up from the bullshit compliance efforts.

It doesn't help too that many Americans view things like health care as their God-given right. Many people don't want to even pay for their own health care. They foist those costs onto their employers, and the result is that we have an auto industry that is collapsing because it has to cut corners on the quality of its cars to price them at the same rate that Japanese companies, which don't lavish effectively unlimited health care coverage, onto their employees. GM, for example, has about $1,500/car in expenses just for health care that it has to pay for its union workers, many of whom haven't gotten the memo: most corporate employees don't get these benefits, why should they?

Deregulation, a simplified tax code and making people pay their own way are the only things that will make America able to compete with these leaner, cheaper countries.

Re:Americans are very expensive (-1, Flamebait)

KlomDark (6370) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509763)

Either you don't live in the US, or you are a complete traitor.

The problem with healthcare in the US (1)

vlad_petric (94134) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509953)

is that it is incredibly expensive to begin with. A week in a hospital can cost as much as 100k$. The result is "drive-through" surgery. WTF?

Also, if I have an insurance policy that the hospital accepts, the cost of a procedure is X$. If I don't have insurance, it'x 2X or even 3X$. Again, WTF?

Re:The problem with healthcare in the US (1)

ThosLives (686517) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510403)

Two words explain both these phenomena:

Insurance

Liability

Liability causes high cost to entry to healthcare, so there is not sufficient increase in supply to bring prices down. Insurance allows costs to remain high because it distributes a cost of services used by a small fraction of the population across the entire population - this means the actual demand of the service is no longer related to its price, so traditional economics don't hold very well. What you end up with is a twisted relationship between people who pay insurance but don't get services, people who pay insurance and get services, and people who don't pay insurance but get services. People who don't pay insurance and don't get services are not exempt from the complication: there are always incidental effects related to the benefits to society to having health care for everyone. Also, even if you or your employer is not directly paying for insurance, if you (or your employer) purchase any product or service out there you are still paying for insurance in the form of higher prices for those goods and services (unless you live in a completely closed community like in The Village or something).

Drive-Through Surgery (1)

everphilski (877346) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510489)

The funny thing is, though... drive-through surgery works. Damn well. It's freaking amazing. My wife had to have two this summer: the first was a gallbladder removal, the second was a result of pain during her pregnancy (baby broke something, doc went in and fixed it). Cost $300 a pop, insured, in and out in less than 4 hours. Had 1-2 checkups for each following the surgery.

Would you rather recover in a hospital, or in bed at home? I think that might be half the battle.

Re:Americans are very expensive (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509977)

About the health care you've got to be kidding. So everyone should pay their own way?

Hmmm, most countries have government health care. In the US people are already paying their way and it sucks. Health care is insanely expensive if you have to pay for it yourself. It's cheaper with insurance even if you're paying the bills. It's all one big scam.

Re:Americans are very expensive (2, Insightful)

Zontar_Thing_From_Ve (949321) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510147)

The last I heard, the total cost of compliance with our income tax, personal and corporate, is about $286B a year in lost productivity, added bureaucracy, etc. It's ironic, but ending the variable-rate (I'm loathe to call such a stupid system "progressive") income tax in the United States alone, and replacing it with a very simple flat tax would constitute a sweeping tax cut just in terms of the resources freed up from the bullshit compliance efforts.

I certainly wouldn't disagree with this, but I'd like to know if you've been, uh, shall we say "smoking something" since you seem to imply that such cost savings would go towards creating more jobs in the USA. My experience has been that the more money companies save, the more of it that goes into the pockets of upper executives.

It doesn't help too that many Americans view things like health care as their God-given right. Many people don't want to even pay for their own health care. They foist those costs onto their employers, and the result is that we have an auto industry that is collapsing because it has to cut corners on the quality of its cars to price them at the same rate that Japanese companies, which don't lavish effectively unlimited health care coverage, onto their employees. GM, for example, has about $1,500/car in expenses just for health care that it has to pay for its union workers, many of whom haven't gotten the memo: most corporate employees don't get these benefits, why should they?

Now your post veers into the irrational. You take the single most extreme example you can of a totally atypical industry and act like it's typical. Yes, we know that the American automobile industry is on a path of self-destruction thanks the autoworkers union. Why pull this extreme example out and go on about it when you even admit "most corporate employees don't get these benefits"? Indeed. Everyone I know has to pay something for their own health care, even if some of the cost is paid by their employer. In fact, the cost me and my co-workers pay goes up every year.

Deregulation, a simplified tax code and making people pay their own way are the only things that will make America able to compete with these leaner, cheaper countries.

Not only am I skeptical that this will work (deregulation doesn't solve every problem, it sometimes leads to worse situations - have you forgotten the California energy deregulation debacle of a few years ago?), again, my experience has been that the more money American companies save, the more money that goes to the upper executives. I would not expect such a plan to result in more jobs. In fact, it might actually result in less because the executives would have even more money to keep to themselves.
Never underestimate the greed of business executives or their ability to safeguard or even increase their own perks.

Do you have any idea about Indian bureaucracy ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510167)

We have been outsourcing jobs to a country with one of the most suffocating civilian bureaucracies in the world, with government-provided healthcare to boot.

So tell me why India has not been moving IT jobs to the US?

You do understand that the US is ALONE in all developed nations in NOT providing universal healthcare? Do you know that the tax burden in the US is almost the lowest in the industrial world (I think maybe Japan is less)?

You understand that US manufacturing has been effectively outsourced to the People's Republic of China? This is a country run by the Communist Party for Christ's sake! If "free markets" are so great, then why has the last great communist dictatorship swallowed our jobs (and own a huge chunk of our debt)?

Of course, don't let reality get in the way of your political rant. Rather than look at incompetent political and corporate leaders, you would prefer to blame the average person for wanting a better life. In your fantasy world, it is the powerless who are to blame, for not granting the rich and powerful event more power and wealth.

It reminds me of the dumb things people say (4, Insightful)

tkrotchko (124118) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510483)

Back in the 80's when Japanese cars made real inroads in the U.S. car market, people would comment that Japanese cars were built better and more reliable than their American counterparts. Inevitably this would lead to talk of "fat lazy union workers", and would conjure up pictures of some fat slob with a cigarette dangling from his mouth only putting in the occasional bolt if the mood struck him.

The reality is that quality in cars is engineered from the earliest drawings. It goes into the manufacturing process to ensure there is only one correct way to assemble something. It comes about because management is committed to a quality product. Not just the words, but they take concrete steps to ensure what goes out the door is the best that they know how to build.

So the Japanese really were building better cars simply because the management of the company committed to building good cars. The proof was when Honda and Toyota moved manufacturing to the United States with no loss in quality. Nobody cares if their Accord is built in the U.S. or Japan, the cars are simply quality products.

To this day, the myth of the lazy American work persists, I assume partly because American cars for the most part still fall below Japanese standards. Now somehow the Union makes line workers stupid and lazy, which is ridiculous.

A large part of the reason unions arose in heavy industries was because management treated workers so poorly. That culture still exists in American automobile plants and leads to workers understand that the company will cheat them blind without a good contract. So the company treats people poorly and suffers the consequence in the factory.

It's like you punch somebody in the face, and then complain when they punch you back.

I'm confused (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510223)

Aren't the car companies private companies? Aren't the workers private citizens?

Did not a private company agree to pay for private citizen's health care? Are there any other costs I can foist on my employer? I'd like them to pay for my car and house. Is there some foisting forms I need to fill out to compel them to pay for whatever I'd like?

No seriously, you're onto something about shifting costs, but this example is really an awful one. It would have more meaning if the government mandated that companies provide health care, but they don't. So explain how you prevent companies from offering a legal benefit to their workers, and why this would be good public policy?

If my company wants to offer me free pizza on Friday, is that something government needs to be concerned with? How about if they offer me a gym membership... is that something the government needs to start setting policy around?

It's almost like you want a laissez-faire government, and want to back it up with strict government regulations to make sure of it. It's an oxymoron.

Re:Americans are very expensive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510439)

I guess someone should tell the Japanese that their national health insurance is hindering their competitiveness with the U.S. auto industry. Er, no, it isn't. Well then the German national health care system is why German cars are so poor...

No, wait, I have it. The U.S. auto industry is inefficient because its compensation for its executives is ridiculously high, and because it specialized in automobiles that fewer people want now that fuel is USD3/gallon and Americans accept that global warming is real.

Good luck find a country that produces a successful automotive industry that doesn't have a national health care system.

Re:Americans are very expensive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510557)

Nice try pushing your agenda, bub.

It doesn't help too that many Americans view things like health care as their God-given right.

Tax-payer money funds health care research. I don't need any God to give me the right to the benefits. I fucking paid for it in the first place!

Dilbert comic strip? (3, Funny)

TheLink (130905) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509613)

Wasn't there a Dilbert comic strip where Dilbert's company outsources to X who outsources to Y who outsources to .... who outsources to Dilbert's company.

And everyone lies a bit about meeting the SLAs and so quotes cheaper prices. ;)

Yeah, but what about quality? (1)

ebunga (95613) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509653)

The fact that software development is often outsourced, off-shored, and then off-shored again should make it quite clear that the work quality of the average developer is about the same as cheap commodity coffee beans.

Re:Yeah, but what about quality? (1)

Medievalist (16032) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510319)

The fact that software development is often outsourced, off-shored, and then off-shored again should make it quite clear that the work quality of the average developer is about the same as cheap commodity coffee beans.
I guess you've noticed that the expensive fair-trade, organic, shade-grown coffee tastes incredibly good. Sometimes you DO get what you pay for.

from the turnabout-is-fair-play dept. (1)

goldaryn (834427) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509661)

Heh. I once worked on servicedesk for a well known gases company, with global IT operating out of the UK. The servicedesk was exported to India.

A few months later I noticed in the news that the Indian firm to which the servicedesk had been outsourced had purchased a call-centre in Northern Ireland. My guess is the Geordie, Scottish, Worzel Gummidge, Scouse accents were too confusing. Oh, to listen in to some of those conversations...

Apparently that company has since brought IT back to the UK. The price of trying to save a few pennies...

Re:from the turnabout-is-fair-play dept. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510093)

...a well known gases company...

Microsoft?

Why it's called Bangalore (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509663)

There's a reason why they call it Bangalore.

It's because projects outsourced there go Bang! Galore!

So does this mean... (5, Funny)

SkinnyKid63 (1104787) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509669)

So does this mean that when Indians call for tech supported, they will get angry because they can't understand the American accent of someone claiming to be Raehan?

Re:So does this mean... (2, Funny)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510331)

So does this mean that when Indians call for tech supported, they will get angry because they can't understand the American accent of someone claiming to be Raehan?

"I recon therza varmit wedged up right in yer fan, that spinny thingamabob thats humin' like a lassy bittin' by a thirsty ol' swamp skeeter".
     

In Soviet Russia... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509673)

In Soviet Russia... oh shit!

Re:In Soviet Russia... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510071)

You meant to say...

In the Soviet USA, jobs are outsourced to YOU.

Misleading summary (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509715)

"Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnant or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today."

TFA only mentions the Indian tech industry. I'm sure you could make a case for a world-wide effect from this, but the article doesn't mention it.

OMG! The developing world... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509745)

...is developing!

Something must be done!

large pool of qualified applicants in the market (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509773)

As an employer, I have to say that this is total BS. If there was a large pool of qualified applicants, we'd have a larger workforce.
The reality is that the market for IT talent with actual talent (as opposed to fluffed up CVs) is VERY tight, at least across
North America.

Outsourcing is not all that cost effective, due to miscommunication leading to wasted effort, weird working hours, telco and travel costs, etc. Organizations outsource because they can't find local talent, and apparently talent is getting pretty short in places like India too - meaning that we're still stuck.

Re:large pool of qualified applicants in the marke (1)

tfaust (888625) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510581)

Can you really not find qualified people, or are you removing yourself from their consideration? If you want a superstar developer for cheap, they aren't even going to reply to your ad. And all the people you do see are probably no more qualified than the offshore resources you'll eventually hire. I agree that people who can think are in short supply, but the reality is you don't get that automatically just by going offshore for staff. In my experience, offshoring isn't about talent as much as cost savings. Coders are cheap and plentiful, developers are expensive and rare. Most companies that can't find talent are trying to hire developers at coder rates.

We'll See What Really Happens (3, Informative)

tshak (173364) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509811)

This recent article [rediff.com] discusses an interesting paradox India is in: It will have high unemployment among the educated, but only because those educated are not skilled enough to perform the required jobs (including, but not limited to, IT). The point is that India will not be able to come close to meeting the demand of an estimated workforce shortage of 40 million by 2012.

Qualified applicants? (1)

xENoLocO (773565) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509829)

Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnant or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today.


If by qualified, you mean "willing to undercut someone who can get the job done right", then sure. The fact remains that some companies will understand that to get the job done right will cost a fair salary.

Lots of people play football, too... but not everybody makes it to the NFL.

Which way is that pool exactly? (1)

cyngus (753668) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509841)

Can you show me exactly where this pool of "qualified" applicants is? My company is desperate to hire quality people. Despite extensive pre-screening, I'd say no more than 20% (and that's optimistic) of people who make it to an in-person interview are nearly qualified. Maybe 10% I'm impressed with.

Knowing how to write C/C++/Java or anything else is not sufficient to be "qualified". In fact, I'd sooner hire someone who was bright, creative, well-versed in computer *science*, and doesn't know a compiled language from an interpreted one than hire a wizard at Java who can't think (him|her)self out of a paper bag.

Re:Which way is that pool exactly? (1)

ErikZ (55491) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510003)

If only there were some sort of online forum where dedicated geeks hung out. Then it would be easy to find people!

Re:Which way is that pool exactly? (1)

cyngus (753668) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510119)

That doesn't help if the geeks are already employed!

Re:Which way is that pool exactly? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510333)

Just because someone is employed doesn't mean they aren't available. It just means you have to offer them something their current position isn't/can't. I'm employed and also looking for work. As many people have found, the best time to find a job is when you're already employed.

Re:Which way is that pool exactly? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510145)

I would guess that another 10% out of the subset that you weren't impressed with do not do that well in an interview setting and possibly are not adept at pulling syntactic minutia out of the air but otherwise are more talented than the 10% you were impressed with.

Re:Which way is that pool exactly? (1)

cyngus (753668) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510559)

If I didn't make it clear from my original post, I could care less about syntactic minutia. In fact, I've never asked a syntax question. I've never asked a question that required more than psuedo code or got more specific than programming concepts that are found across many languages. I care much more about the ability to think than anything else. A good answer to "How would you design the object memory layout for a language like Java?" is much more important than "What are some examples of ternary logic operators?" Most interviews I conduct, less than 50% of the time is spent on questions related to computers. The "doesn't interview well" question comes up a lot and I and many other interviewers take this into account if the candidate seems nervous.

Re:Which way is that pool exactly? (1)

Clover_Kicker (20761) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510567)

You're probably right, but how is the interviewer supposed to know if you're a smart guy with poor interview skills or just plain dumb?

Re:Which way is that pool exactly? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510507)

Can you show me exactly where this pool of "qualified" applicants is? My company is desperate to hire quality people. Despite extensive pre-screening, I'd say no more than 20% (and that's optimistic) of people who make it to an in-person interview are nearly qualified. Maybe 10% I'm impressed with.
Let me ask you this: What is the salary range you're looking to pay? I think the answer to this question will determine where the qualified applicants are.

It's not WHERE you outsource to (3, Insightful)

blueZ3 (744446) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509851)

it's communication with co-workers and the difficulties that come integrating remote teams.

My brother-in-law is a developer for a big fininacial services operation, and they attempted to outsource a project. Eventually management gave up and brought the work back to the home office, as the quality of code coming out of the outsourcing house was crap. Basically, a lot of the code they sent back was buggy or hard to integrate and had to be debugged and redone by the on-site developers.

But I'm not sure that that's an indication that the coders were poor (though that's a possibility). Basically, you're asking folks to communicate across both a language barrier and time difference that just makes it really difficult to do so with good results. Not impossible, perhaps, but difficult. Considering the difficulties that folk speaking the same primary language and sitting in the same room have communicating, I think it's safe to say very difficult.

Moving your "onshore outsourcing" to Georgia or wherever might address language issues, but the problems that come with integrating a remote team aren't going to go away.

Good! (1)

homer_s (799572) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509855)

Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnant or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today.

Similarly, the price of computer hardware world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to improvements in technology and an increase in the number of manufacturers. We all know that cannot be good for the industry.

When the cost of any product (or service) falls, more people/companies can use that product due to the reduced cost and produce more/better stuff for the end consumer - this is true for microchips, shoes, tools, janitors or programming services.

Yeah, it sucks if you are the producer of the product whose price falls, but the consumers of your product or service do not have to support you. It does not matter if the price falls because of technology or because of cheap "foreign" imports - either way the consumer has more money in the pocket now to create other, new stuff (either by himself or by investing).

Depends on what you call qualified. (1)

mrjb (547783) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509857)

Over 90% of the IT coworkers I've had in the past 10 years of my IT career had NO education in IT whatsoever. I'm also sorry to report that it reflects in the quality of their work.

Re:Depends on what you call qualified. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510283)

Oh please... IT training does not an expert make! Last I saw the paper-cert-chasers had flooded the IT labor market with their certifications in everything and no talent, ability, comprehension bodies were just cluttering up the place. I know many of those bums have fallen off, but many still cling to their jobs somehow. They have "training" as evidenced by the testing for which they gained certifications. To be short, I see the problem as being the other-way around. The real lack is in people who have the talent, ability and cognitive skills to be a good person in IT.

Re:Depends on what you call qualified. (1)

WwWonka (545303) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510377)

Over 90% of the IT coworkers I've had in the past 10 years of my IT career had NO education in IT whatsoever. I'm also sorry to report that it reflects in the quality of their work.

I don't know if that is you Chris on the other side of my cube, but that 90% of us here at ZippoTech find 100% of you to be an arrogant prick.

let's start a union (1)

lib3rtarian (1050840) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509875)

I, for one, will not work for less than a certain sum. I'll go back to cooking before I do I.T. style work for less money.

why does bloat matter? (-1, Offtopic)

david_bonn (259998) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509925)

lago:~/Music david$ cd /Applications
lago:/Applications david$ du -s iTunes.app/
199896 iTunes.app/
lago:/Applications david$ cd ~/Music/
lago:~/Music david$ du -s iTunes/
33180792 iTunes/
lago:~/Music david$

'nuff said? Maybe. From my point of view, for a lot of applications the volume of data you are fooling with (like the above example) completely overwhelms any software bloat.

Sometimes bloat does matter. If I wanted to make a little fanless machine that would boot off of flash drive, I'd need to use damned skinny software on it because I'd be faced with very limited disk space and I wouldn't want applications using that poor flash drive as virtual memory.

Dependencies matter too. A smallish application with a mess of dependencies (especially if it is at all fussy about those dependencies) is a lot more trouble to deal with than a bloated application that doesn't have that mess of dependencies. Sometimes there is much to be said for statically linking things.

Re:why does bloat matter? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510077)

Dude, wrong article [slashdot.org] ....

everything changes and people never get used (1)

icepick72 (834363) | more than 6 years ago | (#20509967)

Hey if somebody else is knocking at your country's door and catering better to business (as far as business is concerned) then more power to you. The rest of us will have to learn to adapt to a changing world, choose to die, or die trying. Everybody is adverse to change, but it's often not such a big deal if you embrace it -- only then will you be able to see the opportunies when you learn to work with it instead of fearing it.

Are we a 3rd world nation yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20509979)

I know our [US] economy has been sliding badly... the gap between the haves and the have-nots has been ever-widening and the middle class is moving to extinction... but I didn't know it had progressed so far along that we are being treated like a nation of "brown people." How long before I am chastised for having an American accent when I speak on the phone?

Not what you expect. (3, Informative)

king-manic (409855) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510015)

There are a lot of cautionary tales about outsourcing and often the infrastructure necessary to successfully out source over seas almost negates the cost benefit. You need good bilingual managers, well thought out specifications, a good out sourcing firm or subsidiary, rigorous hiring practices and a "friend" in the over seas government to protect you investment. It's worth it if you need extra capacity with more flexibility (as over seas hiring/firing can be easier). From personal experience hiring an over seas firm does not guarantee any cost savings and if your only looking to shave your costs you may find out like my previous company that out sourcing can be a multi hundreds of million dollar catastrophe.

I've been part of small companies that hired a over seas company to to find out they paid a retainer for almost nothing. I've been part of a large company that spend a couple hundred million and got back a unusable piece of trash. The company was Isreali. Many heads rolled.

India. Outsource our health care problems (3, Interesting)

zymano (581466) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510053)


We need internet FAST ENOUGH(which it isn't) that we can hire indian doctors for the poor.

Thats right. I am sure outsourcing to india would save the lower incomes a good penny.

Robotic Surgery with a doctor all the way in India or China?

Sounds good to me. I am sure the medical lobby will deem it too dangerous since they care for us so much.

 

They always have to find negative news (2, Insightful)

kuriharu (756937) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510139)

Although, it sounds good for US job growth, the implication is that firms outside the US appear to be dominating more and more in the global economy, even from developing and underdeveloped regions of the world.


First, the bad news was that jobs were being outsourced. Now the bad news is that the jobs are coming back to the US.

Its all fun and games until ... (1)

tgd (2822) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510165)

the job you had before it was outsourced was outsourced back to you at 1/3 the pay!

wipro shampoo (1)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510179)

Wipro [wiprocorporate.com] is a conglomerate that makes and sells soaps and shampoo and other baby products. Are we sure it is the IT division that is opening the office in Atlanta, GA, and not one of the soap division opening an export office?

Reasons for this (4, Informative)

Necroman (61604) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510187)

Listening to the audio version of the story, I found a few key points:

* US programmers are still much more expensive than programmers in other countries.
* Wipro has software houses in multiple countries around the world, their is their first Software house in the US though.
* US programmers know about the culture and idioms of this country, which is needed for some jobs.
* Any defense contracts must be worked on my US based developers.

FUCKER (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510205)

Come on Baby...and Tan operating system

Excellence is no longer the goal (LOL) (1)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510229)

I laughed out loud at this.

Businesses consider cost over quality 80% of the time.

So you are always losing excellence as they cut meat, defer upgrades, stifle PO's for required software and then get upset later when you do not achieve excellence.

The easy ride for businesses of cheap IT is ending in 2010. We are already losing people left and right at my corp because other local businesses are giving them 20% raises-- and we pay what I thought was darn good salaries (around six figures after bonus).

In George Bush's America... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20510249)

India outsources to you!

LIES LIES LIES!!! (5, Informative)

MCHammer (110588) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510371)

I live in Atlanta Georgia and a lot of people are talking about how this company will be bringing jobs to Atlanta. The truth is that while they will be hiring people, this will result in a NET LOSS for Atlanta and the United States.

The way this works is that Fortune 50 companies in Atlanta like Bell South, Coca-Cola, Delta, etc. have contracts with US based firms and employ US based resources. The movement is now to outsource to India. The problem is that they realize that they have to have someone in the United States to actually talk to the customer and deal with problems. These people will be the business analysts and the technical architects that feed the people off shore. While they say that these companies are creating jobs in the United States, the truth is that most of them will be landed resources also from India under H1B visa.

The result of this is that the 50 people in Atlanta that were working in IT are now replaced by 40 off shore people, 5 landed people in Atlanta, and 5 local people. I'm not judging whether it's good or bad or right or wrong, I'm just clarifying what is really happening because most people are way off on this one.

USA has low cost of living areas also (4, Interesting)

MarkWatson (189759) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510373)

About 10 years ago my wife and I moved from a beach area in California to North Central Arizona - partly because it is a beautiful place and partly because a much lower cost of living in Arizona has freed us up to be more flexible in our working (or not working). Neither one of us has had a job in an office since our move, and we both only work on projects that interest us.

Frankly, I can not understand why so many people trade both their time and preference to work on interesting projects for material stuff like frequently buying new cars, homes that are much larger than they really need, etc. I believe that this odd behavior is caused by a lifetime of subjecting oneself to advertising, but that is just a theory :-)

Non news (2, Insightful)

suv4x4 (956391) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510415)

NPR is reporting Indian software maker Wipro is outsourcing positions to a development office opening in Atlanta, Georgia. Although, it sounds good for US job growth, the implication is that firms outside the US appear to be dominating more and more in the global economy

So let me get this straight, a single company was found to open a US office, and the implication is that firms outside the US dominate the global economy ??

NPR should adjust the weight they contribute to a single anecdotal case I believe.

In a global economy you'll see Indian companies opening US offices and US companies opening offices in India. You'll see Japanese companies having US devisions that outgrow the Japanese ones and basically everything.

Borders don't mean jack anymore. You pick a place that has the people you want, the market you want and the taxes you want, and go for it.

Kids choices? (3, Interesting)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 6 years ago | (#20510423)

Would you really recommend IT to school kids evaulating future careers with the canon of globalization pointed right up IT's ass? Things may turn out okay, or they may get worse. But you have to admit the global monkey is on IT's back, making it a risky career choice.
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