AT&T to Help MPAA Filter the Internet? 219
Save the Internet writes "Ars Technica is reporting that the MPAA is trying to convince major ISPs to do content filtering. Now, merely wanting it is one thing, but the more important point is that 'AT&T has agreed to start filtering content at some mysterious point in the future.' We're left to wonder about the legal implications of that, but given that AT&T already has the ability to wiretap everything for the NSA, it was only a matter of time before they found a way to profit from it, too."
Prepare for boardin' by the MPAA! (Score:5, Funny)
Arr, where isOliver Wendell Jones and his swashbuckling Banana PC when ye need them!
Avast, all the p2p sites need to do is mask the activity by sendin' and receivin' "noise" (content of random or random packets of encoded content with pre-arranged means of embedding send and receive commands, encoded by phrases passed by other means.) Arr, I be reading too many cryptographer tales.
Re:Prepare for boardin' by the MPAA! (Score:5, Funny)
Tomorrow. [wikipedia.org]
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Re:Prepare for boardin' by the MPAA! (Score:4, Insightful)
they would prefer those removed anyway. they're competition.
Re:Prepare for boardin' by the MPAA! (Score:5, Insightful)
If we used encryption for everything, in all our endeavors, it would be hard for them to declare something mainstream illegal. They tried it with alcohol, remember what happened? Mafia was an example of the free market prevailing, everyone wanted alcohol, and they got it, regardless of whether the government said it was bad, or even ammended the Constitution to ban alcohol... Even after being driven underground, the actual free market prevailed... alcohol remained available, despite ALL of the efforts of the government to deny people to buy and use what it was they desired. Of course, afterwards it was "allowed" again, merely because the state wanted to tax it... and it was allowed to do so, because the masses were just that... ignorant.
Re:Prepare for boardin' by the MPAA! (Score:4, Interesting)
What stops you? All the people who say stupid things like "I don't care if the government watches what I'm doing... I'm not doing anything illegal and they'll catch more bad guys!"
You need the complicity of these people and their willingness to encrypt stuff that doesn't really need to be encrypted (say, like google searches for stock information).
But, let's say that one was able to get a bunch of Joe Sixpacks to start encrypting traffic that wasn't of some deemed dubious nature. All it would take is a threat letter from an ISP to the effect of: "We see that you're sending encrypted packets on our network consistently. We have a policy against such activity, so you must not encrypt it or you'll be banned!"
Can an ISP really ban encrypted traffic?
No.
Might Joe Sixpack believe it?
Sure.
He'd turn it off (see previous erroneous logic about giving up privacy) and leave only the "trouble-makers" who could be dropped without a loss of revenue. Heck, the ISP might even make money from the MPAA for such actions.
Hmmm... re-reading this response, I think I have a tinge too much "tin foil hat" mixed in, but I think the general gist stands: it would be nearly impossible to get average people to collude without strong motivation to do so, and I just don't see from where that motivation would stem. 8/
Works both ways (Score:2)
In the 1930s, the government had high technology. It wasn't the same high technology as the government has in 2007, but it was sophisticated for its time: telegraphs, teletypes, keypunches and card-sorters. Similarly, people who wanted to flout the law didn't have nearly-unbreakable encr
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Two things generally stop one from encrypting their communications.
Sure, the people here on /. can set this stuff up, but the average user cannot. The only way this will happen is if we come up with a way to blanket encrypt everything that comes out of a box, and then enable it by default. The e
if only (Score:2)
Re:if only (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, there are numerous cases in the past (around 2000-2002) of "content owners" trying to sue OSPs and ISPs. When good lawyers have been involved on the part of the OSPs/ISPs, as long as take-down notices have been properly handled, the cases have been thrown out of court. Some smaller ISPs and OSPs - in some of the earliest(IIRC) have settled. That trend died after the "content owners" started losing the cases against bigger OSPs/ISPs. I seem to remember NetCom as being one of them. The initial problem - back then - was that some of the suits pre-dated the DMCA (the DMCA not always being a bad thing). In some of those earlier cases, judges (with no technical knowledge of how the Internet works) had even ruled against ISPs/OSPs - ones that would have been protected by the DMCA.
Now, there has been an argument that an ISP/OSP who does start filtering that "unfilterable" content is opening themselves up to tons of lawsuits for anything they miss - part of the argument is that they are no longer providing the role of (just) a transport mechanism, since they are picking what content does - or does not - go through their pipes.
This situation may grow into something that tests that legal theory. I've personally talked to lawyers who think such actions would damage an ISPs/OSPs Safe Harbor claim. But then again, it's not their opinion (since it hasn't been tried yet) that matters... it's the outcome of any lawsuits that stem from AT&T failing to filter content that they should have.
While they may get blanket immunity from the **AA over such errors, other content owners have been looking for a wedge in (again numerous lawsuits) to hold OSPs/ISPs liable. After all, it is far more profitable - I mean easier to recoup losses - to win a lawsuit against an AT&T than against John Doe.
This also brings in the grey area of certain judges deciding that if AT&T can manage to filter certain types of content or traffic, then everyone should - opening more doors to suing OSPs/ISPs. At least in that particular case, the OSPs/ISPs have one particular clause in the DMCA still in their favor - which is (poorly paraphrased) an exclusion from being required to do so if that method makes the service unusable or creates ridiculous undue hardship on the ISP/OSP (for instance, a 20 person ISP needing to hire a team of thousands, or install tens of thousands of servers to be able to filter traffic in real time). That part of the DMCA though is kind of vague on specifics... leaving it open to interpretation... thus, what AT&T can do, and afford to do... most ISPs/OSPs cannot - but would a judge of questionable technology and Internet knowledge understand that?
Legal implications: none (Score:5, Insightful)
No we're not. When AT&T permitted NSA to infiltrate/subvert its network in order to monitor all domestic and foreign Intarweb traffic, it broke enough privacy laws that the legal consequences would require the dissolution of the company.
Unlike Arthur Andersen and the Enron scandal, AT&T and the other US telcos are "too big to fail". Because no penalty can be assessed without bankrupting AT&T, no penalty can be assessed, period.
Now that the precedent has been set for some crimes (to date, those involving national security), there's nothing to stop it from being applied to other crimes (namely, those involving copying pictures of a cartoon mouse, or sounds emitted from a plastic-titted starlet).
As prophesized by the late, great Douglas Adams, the legal implications to AT&T are as follows:
"Have you any idea how much damage that bulldozer would suffer if I just let it roll straight over you?" said Mr. Prosser.
"How much?" asked Arthur.
"None at all," replied Prosser.
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So, in the context of this discussion, wtf does that mean? You gonna hack AT&T's Gibson?
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Re:Legal implications: none (Score:4, Insightful)
Source please?
Here's a thought experiment for you: you're a big company with lots of government contracts. A well-known government law enforcement agency comes to you and says "we need you do X, and it needs to be secret." Wouldn't you think that you could presume that the actions the government asks you to do are by definition legal? Or if they turn out to be illegal, you have reason to have acted in the manner you did, which dramatically lowers any punishment.
Has any controlling legal authority (to use former VP Gore's phrase) actually ruled that AT&T et. al. violated the law as opposed to having done something which smells bad?
I'm not a lawyer (thank God), but I've hung out with a bunch to know the difference between unpleasant acts and illegal ones.
Now, mind you, the above has no bearing whatsoever on any dealings between AT&T and the MPAA - I prefer my ISPs to behave as common carriers in the technical and legal sense. I do know that an ISP which actively filters then becomes more responsible when *bad stuff* gets through, so AT&T could be buying themselves a barrel of trouble if they implement this on a widespread basis (as opposed to an ad-hoc, subpoena-driven basis).
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Re:Legal implications: none (Score:4, Informative)
However, if a member of a law enforcement branch of the government says "this is legal" and it's plausible, I might answer differently.
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Now imagina you have a staff of hundreds of lawyers at your disposal. Would you say "hey, let's not ask the lawyers if this is legal, and let's just blindly assume it is"?
AT&T has every tool to know the exact legality of their actions. "We didn't know" is not a valid defense.
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Imagine you are driving, and a cop is directing traffic. He directs you to drive the one way on a one way street. If you comply with his directive, that would be an affirmative defense against another cop giving you a ticket for driving the wrong way
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Good lord no, and not even from an ideological perspective. If I were running a company, I would hope that my lawyers would thoroughly investigate what we were being asked to do, because from a purely pragmatic viewpoint we want to make sure we don't expose ourselves to lawsuits from our customers. The government enjoys a lot of protection from those, but people simply doing favors for the go
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Has anyone who has standing to do so actually ruled that AT&T did anything illegal as opposed to unpleasant? Perhaps they do have legions of lawyers after all...
(also, there are PR implications in refusing a direct order when it's couched in national security too...)
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Here's a hint, in the U.S. even the President is required (by law, ironically) to obey the law.
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I was not saying "because the government said / did X is was necessarily legal"
I was saying "because the government said / did X, the entity who was asked for assistance does have a reasonable presumption that X is legal" - i.e. they can be shown to be acting in good faith.
Godwin invoked (Score:2)
seeya.
justification for moving away from net neutrality. (Score:2)
Re:justification for moving away from net neutrali (Score:2)
I mean. What's to stop a politically submissive cash cow from cutting off the pr0n? You think prohibition was bad? That could spark the first coup in my lifetime.
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Blatant Censorship if Goal. (Score:2)
It's already happening to your email [slashdot.org]. Big brother does not want you to share stories about how you got locked away and tortured for five years without charges, so the free internet must die. You will not be allowed to run a server of anykind. When you do, ATT will drop it on the floor. ATT and friends are dependent on government protection of their racket and will be happy to treat you the way AOL, Yahoo and M$ have treated people in China. Oppressive governments can not tolerate truth.
I would just love to see... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Repeat after me:
ISPs are not common carriers
ISPs are not common carriers
ISPs are not common carriers
I'm not sure why everyone keeps thinking otherwise, but ISPs are not common carriers. They already do actions that would be in violation of common carrier status, and no, no one has or will be suing them for it.
Legalese vs. common parlance (Score:3, Informative)
ISPs are not common carriers
ISPs in the United States are not "common carriers" for the legalese sense of "common carriers". But they are "common carriers" in the broader sense of "entities providing communication services with similar immunities to common carriers", such as entities compliant with Title 17, U.S. Code, section 512 [copyright.gov]. Likewise, uses of a copyrighted work under 17 USC 108 through 112 [copyright.gov] are not "fair uses", which in the strict legal sense refers only to uses under 17 USC 107 [copyright.gov], but they are "fair uses" under common parlance.
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Oh, good I can sue (Score:4, Funny)
The winners in other categories are... (Score:3, Interesting)
Companies such as Endace [endace.com]. A start up from a NZ university, they've been on the Deloitte/Unlimited 50 fastest growing companies for several years (peaking at 1000% growth).
Someone has to make the product to enable this functionality, and if this goes ahead, it will prove very lucrative.
"The Encrypted Internet" (Score:2)
Personally I think that is a good thing.
Encryption (Score:5, Insightful)
ISPs are NOT COMMON CARRIERS! (Score:4, Insightful)
If ISPs were common carriers, there would be no 'net neutrality' debate - it'd be a settled matter.
-Isaac
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No. The cable companies lobbied the FCC (not congress) to explicitly classify cable internet access as an "information service" not a "communications service" - which they did. Independent ISPs sued, and the US Supreme Court held that the FCC
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So.... how can they do this? (Score:2)
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In fact, it must. Otherwise the whole AT&T spying thing would only work on their customers.
Fits the pattern (Score:4, Informative)
And don't forget, they shut down the time service too. Bastards.
sellouts (Score:2)
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Consider the various US firms which helped make the great firewall of China - that certainly takes skill.
Now, could someone evade detection? Probably. Given the lack of detail in TFA or in TFATILT (the June source for this), the impression I got was that this was a "hey check out that user" sort of system: something which sends an alert about some squicky behavior, and then a human takes a look.
Can we take care of filtering spam first? (Score:3, Insightful)
FTFA:
"...given the money and time that will be required to implement such a system..."
Indeed. Did you guys not learn anything from DRM? How about copy protection? Maybe the anti-virus arms race will jog your memory? Oh wait, I know how about 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0? Still nothing?
There's always going to be faster gun, and you cannot "invent" a solution around that.
Message to ATT (Score:2)
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I hope you don't have this for a cable company.
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/04/2014236 [slashdot.org]
http://torrentfreak.com/comcast-throttles-bittorrent-traffic-seeding-impossible/ [torrentfreak.com]
Over the past weeks more and more Comcast users started to notice that their BitTorrent transfers were cut off. Most users report a significant decrease in download speeds, and e
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profit? (Score:2)
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Going back to 2.4k dialup (Score:3, Funny)
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Change the words "sue" to "levy" and "broadband connection" to "writable media" and you've basically described the situation in Canada.
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What I'm more worried about... (Score:3, Interesting)
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AT&T carries traffic from its customers to other ISPs, and AT&T carries traffic from other ISPs to its customers.
A bunch of ISPs are themselves customers of AT&T. This is true of any of the big players - nobody carries anything for free: "peering" is what happens when two ISPs agree that metering their back and forth traffic isn't worth the cost of doing so.
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Wait a second! (Score:2)
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Good luck... (Score:2)
Oh yea? History says otherwise... (Score:5, Insightful)
Does This Mean...This Can of Worms (Score:2)
This can of worms, which I totally bet was opened without consulting with their engineering and programming staff first, is as ugly as it can possibly get.
Fuck AT&T.. Fuck Freedom... Fuck America. (Score:4, Insightful)
I for one, welcome our regular censoring, anti american corporate overlords.
The system is broken, and the country is dead.
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If I had mod points, I would use them.
Whats worse, is that when it fails the first time around... something will be presented to MAKE people demand this 'filtering'.
The country is dead, and its a great fear of mine as to what is going to happen when that critical mass of people realize that reality.
will it be by conquest or consent? Well, we are where we are now, because WE consented to it.
Here comes more Comcast commercials (Score:2)
Re:Here comes more Comcast commercials(FIXED) (Score:2)
Lovie: Well, when downloading a song do you ever get the similar feeling of watching a Bears game when Rex throws a 30 yard pass to Mushin for a touchdown.
Guy In cart: No. I have AT&T
Lovie gets in his car and starts chuckling as he drives off
Communist (Score:2)
This sounds like the Great Firewall of China. Oops, It is exactly like it. Chinese government filters internet content and MPAA wants to do same thing.c
AT&T to be guilty of conspiracy? (Score:2)
Seems if they technically "can" filter, then that opens the door to "forcing" them to filter -- if for no other reason than to classify the traffic as legal or illegal -- if they can do that, seems like it's a no brainer to see some state telling AT&T to enforce their decency / obscenity standards.
Another area -- if someone speaks/writes/posts/ (whatever) abo
Re:Not surprising (Score:4, Funny)
Aye, the more ye be tightenin' yer grip, MPAA and AT&T, the more p2p content and customers will slip through yer fingars!
arr, wrong idiom!
Re:Not surprising (Score:4, Funny)
There, fixed that for ya.
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Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously, the current government does not. And sadly, I suspect, it will be some time before we get one that does.
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Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Informative)
I'm sure I've mentioned this before.
CORRECT (Score:3, Informative)
ISPs have often been able to claim the "common carrier" defense in court when users tried to sue them for things h
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-t
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If I could remember the name of the judge, it would be a lot easier. But it shouldn't be impossible to find if som
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A am not a lawyer, either, but my understanding is that Telcos are common carriers (a.k.a. neutral carriers) as long as they treat all content equally. If they start to block content at the request of the MPAA (or anyone else), they are no longer a common carrier. Which would make them liable if they fail to stop traffic the MPAA doesn't like.
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http://www.cybertelecom.org/notes/telecom_carrier.htm [cybertelecom.org]
http://www.cybertelecom.org/notes/jones.htm [cybertelecom.org]
thus far, the law (CA 1934, CALEA, 47 U.S.C. 153(h)(1991), etc.) does not differentiate between a "communications provider" that uses voice or analog signal, and one that does packet pushing for data (which lately, could also be voice). Of course, as soon as you go modifying what you're carrying (snooping on traffic, prioritizing traffic for whoever pays the most, etc.) that
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The FCC and the Supreme Court seem to have decided upon a different interpretation [coe.int]. The court upheld the FCC's interpretation of the 1996 Telecommunications Act.
This quote is interesting:
The Court seemed to be somewhat uncomfortable, however, with the fact that the FCC's holding imposed common carrier o
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Where they may get into hot water is that anyone with enough money and/or legal time on tap can sue the crap out of AT&T the first time they get a virus if it can be proven that the thing passed in or out of AT&T's networks. After all, if AT&T is busily filtering those nasty ol' bootleg movies, they should be reasonably expected to filter out the dangerous stuff, spam, and most of all to control any customer machines in their network that might have become
Certainly (Score:3, Insightful)
--
So who is hotter? Ali or Ali's sister?
Deeeep pockets (Score:2)
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Get it in writing (Score:2)
Keep a copy.
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However, if what you were talking about was a foreign tunnel encryption service, such a thing could certainly work. However, if your local DSL or cable provider sees nothing by crypto packets, that might be a violation of terms of service. Perhaps what you want is a service which provides you the ability to tunnel nasty stuff in harmless-l
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-Mike
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It's Kind of Like Censorship.Re:content filtering? (Score:2)
Today it's "pirate" media tomorrow, it's whatever Big Brother feels like [slashdot.org]. The people doing it won't ever really tell you what they are doing. If you thought this kind of shit could only happen in China, WAKE UP NOW! Control is ultimately what the MAFIAA are all about. You will never be free if your computer and internet have owners. The destruction of net neutrality is the natural extension of non free computing and will bring us all right back to 1936 as far as freedom of press is concerned.