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Java Success Stories

Roblimo posted more than 14 years ago | from the good-news-for-a-change dept.

Java 235

gark writes "The Java Lobby has a weblog on Java success stories. Many of the successful applications are servlet based, and several use Apache JServ. Perhaps WORA [write once, run anywhere] really has been achieved, at least for server apps."

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FOR KRISTMAS (0)

KillKenny (125228) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433939)

TAKE MY KARMA PLEASE!!!

Re:FOR KRISTMAS (0)

KillKenny (125228) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433940)

btw FIRST WOO FUCKING HOO

Last Post! (0)

Last Post! (121290) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433941)

Java *successes* eh?

What about all those Java failures that no one ever talks about. The charred, smoking wreckage. The orphans.

Wake up people, there's a side of Java that the industrio-trilateral commission regulated media doesn't tell you about.

Viva la revolucion!

_.......................__
||.....__...._._||_..||-\\..._...._._||_
||......_\\.(/_'..||....||-//.//.\\.(/_'..||
||__((_||_,_/).||_..||....\\_//.,_/).\\_
The final word; anything following is redundant.

Reminds me of the Gary Larson cartoon (2)

glomph (2644) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433942)

Where the guy shouts all sorts of admonishing remarks at his dog; and all the dog hears is...

"Blah blah Java blah blah blah Java".

Re:Last Post! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433943)

Flamebait or Funny? You're a moderator's nightmare.

Java's dead. Get over it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433944)

Who cares about Java anymore, now that Sun has officially decided to kill it off by making it propriatary.

Java was a good try - but it's time to move on to a better (and open) solution.

You mean.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433945)

Kwanzaa......Happy holydays & Kooky Kwanzaa everyone. Chappy Channukah Chaps.

I've had great luck with WORA with servlets (2)

Rombuu (22914) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433946)

Although there are certain well known problems with using Java on the client side (speed issues, GUI issues, etc...) the company where I am am doing some work at currently has had some great success doing work with Java servlets. We were able to take some code written and tested on WinNT and Solaris and get it up and running on a Linux box in less than two hours from the time we took a completely bare box, install the OS, and have the app up and running, with absolutely no changes to the code. I don't care how portable your ANSI C code is, but that is almost unheard of.

Now if only we had a spare IBM mainframe sitting around to try it under that environment...

Starting Java... (1)

ReadParse (38517) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433947)

Why was I surprised when the first thing that happened when I clicked the javalobby [javalobby.org] link was Netscape's infamous "Starting Java..."?

I guess not everybody has given up on client-side Java.

RP

Our JServ success story at Webstakes.com (4)

nabucco (24057) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433948)

I work at Webstakes.com ( http://www.webstakes.com ) - we're a very popular site, on the Media Metrix 500 and so forth...our entire operation runs on Apache JServ and we're very happy with it. We actually migrated from a Java-based application server and this is much better. I'm the UNIX system administrator, and in the past I have worked with many commercial application servers, from Broadvision to NetDynamics, and I have to say Apache JServ blows everything else away...I love how flexible Apache is and how JServ fits into it...it makes me wonder why so many financial companies have such a love for Netscape Enterprise server or IIS

Open source application servers are the best - I can tell you from personal experience over the past couple of years...they really blow away commercial application servers. My friend has mod_perl on Elance.com and I'm curious as to how that's working out...I know PERL is a very web-friendly language, maybe even a little more than Java.

Java Success Stories (5)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433949)

A major part of the game in introducing any new
technology to the MIS-managers is producing a
panoply of success stories in the "trade press".
If you read back issues of "Information Week"
"Datamation" etc. you will find endless gushing
stories of successful implementations of
(pick the fad of the last 10 years).
What is *never* covered are the projects that
got abandoned, canceled, or crashed and burned
in some other way... these are politely buried
and not talked about... the programmers fired,
and the memory traces remain only in the minds
of the survivors - again never talked about, and
never included in survey tabulations...
The only way to find about project failures is to
talk to seasoned survivors over a beer, or
to read anti-patterns books or occasionally
the halloween issue of Datamation - and even
then they never give names and places...

Yep, Java is great for server-side (3)

Ledge Kindred (82988) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433950)

I've been doing a LOT of really good work with things like servlets, GSP, Apache-JServ, and so on. Java has really come into its own on the server-side, thanks to things like JDBC that make database integration relatively painless. Java is starting to become The Technology of Choice.

Which is precisely why Sun is pulling stupid stunts like pulling Java out of ECMA stadardization [slashdot.org] and trying to charge royalties [slashdot.org] for the use of the J2EE logo. Sun realizes that Java is A Big Thing now, so they want to get their cut, one way or another.

It's the same old bait-n-switch we've grown to know and loathe from Microsoft, only with a different brand underneath.

These little shenanigans, along with the way Sun is milking the Open Source cow with their so-called SCSL and their treatment of the Blackdown fiasco has got them on my sh*t list but good. They had better realize pretty quickly that the industry isn't going to stand anymore for the same old tricks that Microsoft's been pulling all these years and that Sun isn't anywhere near as powerful and influential as Microsoft to be able to pull them off.

It's enough to want to make me give up Java and learn Perl... Well, ok, maybe Python... :)

Who woulda thunk it a couple of years ago that a die-hard Linux fan who does a lot of Java and database work would today be saying, "At least there's IBM to look to for real support of Java on Linux without trying to screw us over."

-=-=-=-=-

Java == Server Side Revolution (3)

auntfloyd (18527) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433951)

People who say that there are no Java apps miss the point. For the non-server applications, they're pretty much right: there are very few end-user, shrink-wrap apps written in Java. Why? Because portability is not an issue for most software companies. If it runs on Win95 and NT, then it's good to go.

However, a large number of server-side applications use Java servlets or the related JSP technology. Bought a computer on line? If it was from Compaq, HP, or a host of others (such as those listed at http://corporate.pcorder.com/customers/), then you benefited from the speed and robustness of the Java platform. Even the Ford e-commerce site, which Bill Gates so lovingly demonstrated in his Comdex keynote, is based on Java (and runs on NT).

And don't count corporate software, either. Lotus Notes web mail runs through a Java applet, and companies like Oracle are increasing their use of Java everyday.

The fact is, whenever you need fast development, good networking capabilites, and (I hate to say it) 'enterprise' support, Java is a good candidate. WORA is just a small part of it.

One last thing. With the advent of GCJ, it is possible that more native software will be written in Java. This will be a huge boon because it will allow GUI apps to run natively on a large numeber of platforms without changing a line of code. Java, I think, is a good argument for having a large, all-encompassing library (GUI, networking, database, ORB, etc). If only it was so easy with everything else...
~~~~~~~~~
auntfloyd

Re:You mean.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433952)

"Sometimes I drink a little beer, Sometimes I make a little mess, Sometimes I get a little angry, Sometimes I kick a little ass."

happy holidays from the stone cold guy

First you will need (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433953)

a sound card.
is your computer on?

Re:Java's dead. Get over it. (1)

ry4an (1568) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433954)

Acutally they're expected to GPL the Java 2 Standard edition in January.

A matter of speed(naive question)? (2)

hoser (95281) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433955)

My question is this:

Java is supposedly slow. Is this a matter of the speed of the computer? Will Java's ponderous pace become irrelevant as processors become faster? Is it something more inherent in the language???

Re:Last Post! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433956)

I vote 'Insightful'.

Re::) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433957)

Here's how to properly install Linux:

Go to http://www.openbsd.org/ [opebsd.org] and order your 2.6 CD. Wait for it to arrive, pop it into your CD drive, set your PC to boot of the CD, reboot, and follow the incredibly easy install instructions, and *BAM*, you'll have a secure, powerful, functional system much cooler than Windows ever was. And those stickers kick ass, too.

Re::) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433958)

3 hours, wow you did the quick install. You have to do the extended install (69 hrs) to get sound.
We are ZEALOTS, we don't need no stnking sound!!!!

Java is usable in the servlet arena, but... (2)

drf (120802) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433959)

Java is usable in the servlet arena, however Java has two things that cause people like me to choose other solutions (C/C++ is what I am using, perl is another good choice, as well as Python, and plenty of other tools which I forgot to name.)

The first problem with it is its lack of speed. On a server answering a ton of transactions, the JVM needs to have some sort of native machine code cache where Java bytecodes are stored as native code for sake of speed. What would make this a nonissue for servers would be a PCI card (preferably two models -- one 32-bit, one 64-bit wide, both able to select 33/66 Mhz depending on the main bus speed) with a good Java bytecode processor. If these were made inexpensive enough, and put on the motherboards on new SPARC boxes as coprocessers, this would solve the slowness problem.

The second problem is the bad perception of Java. Two big whammies -- Blackdown, and the pulling out of the standards committee hit Java quite close together.

Not to say that Java is a lost cause. When Java was the hot thing amongst computer groups, every vendor with something that runs a CPU got some sort of JVM out for it. So, the write-once, run anywhere thing does still apply. Java 1.0 was, for the most part, a toy, but with the latest iteration, it really has matured into something usable.

Personally, I really don't know as much as I should about Java, but I have seen some very cool things done with it (www.jars.com has a good amount of examples of this, and the main application that drives www.hushmail.com is another good example.) to write it off as a toy language.

As for Sun, its a mixed bag. They come up with some good things, and then trip on themselves. I don't want to write them off just yet.

there weren't _that_ many items at that link (2)

poopie (35416) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433960)

If the story would have been about PERL success stories and that's all they came up with, I'd be disappointed.

Searching FRESHMEAT for JAVA [freshmeat.net] returns 378 links, and they're almost all GPL. That's more impressive to me

anyway... I think the most impressive java app I've used is NetBeans (now owned by Sun). That was the first java app that made me really believe that significant java apps were on the way.

Here's a list of related topics I'd like more slashdot stories on:

ZOPE success stories

comparison of slashdot-alike web-based discussion apps like squishdot, etc.

compare and contrast of OPENSOURCE application servers

Re::) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433961)

Who needs sound when you have 'THE VOICES' inside your head. They are all you need to hear.

Java Servlets are great! (3)

TurkishGeek (61318) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433962)

Finally an article on the server-side successes of Java. IMHO, Java servlets are the best thing that has happened to Java since its inception, but for reasons completely unknown to me, Java-bashing has taken its place next to Microsoft bashing as an official Slashdot sport. Perhaps the reason is the early failure of Java when Sun touted it as the single platform that will replace everything. Anybody else remember the Java ring and the Java OS?

Dear fellow Java-basher Slashdotters: I know most of you have very little free time on your hands, but please set aside a couple of days to take a look at this exciting server side technology, Java servlets. It is truly write-once, run anywhere; it's a widely accepted industry standard, almost all popular databases and application servers support it, and Java is a very good OO language after all. Take a look at some nice servlet tutorials or better, O'Reilly's servlets book [amazon.com] , download the awesome Tomcat [apache.org] or Apache JServ [apache.org] to run with your Apache Web server, get the latest JDK from Blackdown [blackdown.org] or even better, IBM's JDK [ibm.com] , add Jikes [ibm.com] for good measure, and explore the beautiful world of Java servlets. Sun's site completely relies on Java servlets, Yahoo uses servlets for some portions of the site, a host of smaller Web sites and e-commerce companies completely rely on servlets and/or JSP (which is based on servlet technology), (epinions.com, mercata.com come to my mind; there are lots of others)

Whatever server-side programming technology you're using, you will like servlets. Most likely you will want to forget about CGI.pm, sell your books about Netscape's proprietary server-side JavaScript on Ebay, erase memories of hours of fiddling with ISAPI/NSAPI extensions, shred your printouts of ASP error message explanations from the Microsoft knowledge base, and lament about the time you spent posting aimlessly on every bulletin board about those pesky, undocumented Oracle functions of PHP. You will easily have time for all these when you start to use servlets.


--

BluetoothCentral.com [bluetoothcentral.com]
A site for everything Bluetooth. Coming in January 2000.

Re:A matter of speed(naive question)? (1)

drf (120802) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433963)

Java is inherently slow in the fact that it is an interpreted language. When you compile your source, it is turned into Java bytecode, which is converted to native code while its executed. Thus, the overhead of translating, which is generally slow.

There are some advances around this, that people have done. Caching native code is one way, where if a function is executed repeatedly, the first one is slow, then the next run-through will be much faster. Another way is to do something perl-esque, and translate the whole application to native code before running, but this takes some time to do.

The last way to speed it up would be a hardware coprocesser that spoke Java bytecodes natively.

Re:Java's dead. Get over it. (1)

Pomme de Terre! (69783) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433964)

>Acutally they're expected to GPL the Java 2
>Standard edition in January.

Actually they will do no such thing. Sun has been quite clear in their opposition to the GPL. It is possible, however, that they will release it under their Sun Community Source License.

You know this license, don't you? (Ask any Blackdown team member.) "You do all the work, we take all the credit."

Dave

WebMacro, Java servlets, and other comments (4)

trance9 (10504) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433965)

I developed and wrote WebMacro [webmacro.org] which is a free (GPL) Java servlet framework.

I use Java for about half my web projects. The other half of the time I use perl. In my opinion, here are the strengths of Java for server side development:

1-- It allows clean and clear design. Since you can declare compiler-enforced interfaces, you can easily separate out functionality in well defined chunks. This allows you to plan for the long term, hand different parts of the project to different people, and so on. This tends to be what makes me choose Java over Perl: If I want to enforce a long term design (such as re-usable constraints on busisness logic), or break the project up into several different segments, then I choose Java over Perl.

2-- It's fast and scalable. Java is often criticized as being slow, but on the server, it's not. It's fairly fast compared to things like perl (which are usually fast enough to begin with), and add to that the threaded nature of servlets, plus the built in scalability, and you have a big performance gain over other scripted solutions. In particular the ability to automatically distribute a single servlet across multiple webservers, without modifying the servlet itself at all, is a big win. You can be sure that whatever you do will scale.

3-- You do need to make an effort to keep your HTML and your SQL and your Java program code separate form one another. The whole reason for using Java was to get clean, well designed code, and you don't have that when you have HTML obscuring your servlet. This is what prompted me to write WebMacro [webmacro.org] , which is an HTML template system, but you could also do this with FreeMarker, or XSLT, or if you are very careful, with JSP.

4-- Write once, run anywhere is fairly real on the servlet. I routinely develop under FreeBSD, deploy on FreeBSD, Solaris, and Linux, and I have about half the users of WebMacro running it under NT, even though I myself hardly ever use NT. And it all works.

5-- On the downside, the free Java solutions don't appear to work very well for servlets. I have had lots of trouble with kaffe, and the free JVM's are not as fast as the non-open ones. This is too bad, and it's something I expect will change over the next while. I always try kaffe every time it comes out, but it hasn't yet been stable enough for me.

6-- You do need an experienced designer around if you are going to use Java. Unlike perl, where your goal is to hack out something working ASAP, in Java the point of the language is to allow you to do clean design. Well you won't get clean design without an experienced designer. Without a good designer you are probably better off with "write-once" perl-code that you throw out and rewrite whenever you need to fix it. While Java allows you to do really good design, I have seen some really nasty Java code. If you aren't going to use it right.. don't use it.

Server side Java works; client side just slow (2)

Visoblast (15851) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433966)

I work for an e-commerce commpany, (Netran [netran.com] , that has done a lot of Java stuff. We put out a client side Java app to let people shop for groceries (grocer didn't like web browsers). The only problem was the lack of speed and memory usage on the 1.1.4 to 1.1.8 JVMs (The Hotspot stuff with 1.2.2 is much faster). It *DID* run on just about anything, including Windows, OS/2, Mac, and IRIX. Those are all the platforms we tried it on, and it worked on all of them. I have no doubt Solaris and Linux could run it, too. There are a few things the platforms do a little differently, but there is almost always a single way that works and that way is never contorted or weird; just a little different. The one thing that doesn't fit is using a slash for the directory seporator; the Mac didn't like it. In case you're wondering, I wrote most of the GUI code, and some other stuff. I delt with litteraly all the platform incompatibility issues. I worked on the project for over 2 years.

I also got to do some server side Java. It is fast and works great. Using JSP's is much better than ASP's because of the language -- Java is a full language while the ASP stuff is for scripting. VB is just full of inconsistant syntax. Furthermore, the Java Servlet API is very well done. There are a few things that ASPs make difficult to code and JSPs make almost trivial, like a file upload over HTTP (I don't why they were insistant about not using FTP).

Java has other nice & cool things, too, like the communications API. It works with serial and parallel ports. Like most Java API's it is very well written an easy to use.

For a poorly done Java API, look at the InfoBus. It sucks! I made a better one, but its more basic in function (part of the reason I think its better). Its on my web page [ro.com] , if you're interested. I call it the dataBus. All free with LGPL, of course.

Re:Starting Java... (1)

kijiki (16916) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433967)

Client side java rocks. For webgames: http://kijiki.resnet.gatech.edu/breakout

It crashes Netscape/X though, for Linux, I suggest IBM's JIT or Blackdown/Sun's latest RC: "appletviewer http://kijiki.resnet.gatech.edu/breakout/play.html " and goto the link off the main page to see your highscore.

Enjoy!

Re:WebMacro, Java servlets, and other comments (2)

trance9 (10504) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433968)

BTW, WebMacro [webmacro.org] is actually an HTML template langauge. You write a template that contains some dynamic content, but without knowledge of where that content comes from. These templates look like ordinary HTML documents, with a few extra things dropped in.

In the back end you work with ordinary Java objets, anything vaguely bean-like. You just drop these into a hashtable and WebMacro's introspector figures out how to fit what you've supplied in the hashtable together with what you've asked for in the template.

The goal, of course, is to keep your Java servlet code clean and clear, with no HTML--and similarly to keep your HTML clean and clear, with no program code messing it up.

There are other template solutions for Java servlets besides WebMacro. FreeMarker is one. Another way to go is to use XML with XSLT. I would advise against using JSP. JSP is great if you are familiar with ASP and you're looking for something familiar in the Java world--but I don't think it's a good use of the Java langauge. On the other hand, attracting all these ASP peope to Java is good *for* the Java langauge :-)

Re:I've had great luck with WORA with servlets (1)

soulhuntre (52742) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433969)

I don't care how portable your ANSI C code is, but that is almost unheard of.

That's interesting, and untrue. Porting straightforward C/C++ code among those OS's is no bigh trick at all.

But hell, by THAT standard PERL is WORA, so is Python. We sure don;t need all of Sun's Java overhead for that.

Of course, no matter what SUN would liek you to believe, java was SUPPOSED to be WORA on the >CLIENT side as well... it just couldn't cut it - reinventing itselve as a server side tool is cute, but hardly important.

Ken

jdbc:mysql:// (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433970)

i've done some work with jserv and servlets and it is likely the best way to handle database requests over the net, now how do you hook up mm.mysql to StarOIffice jdbc thing. this could be real usefull to me

Re:I've had great luck with WORA with servlets (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433971)

Add anything requiring networking and have fun..

Re:there weren't _that_ many items at that link (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433972)

"comparison of slashdot-alike web-based discussion apps like squishdot, etc"

Not in your wildest dreams... Andover.net has no intention of pointing users away fromt heir closed-source cash-cow (Slashdot).

BTW - source that is 10's of releases behind is no longer useful to call yourself "open source".

&sign($AC[0]);

Does write-once makes sens on the server side? (1)

SpanishInquisition (127269) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433973)

I mean does people change OS of their web server that often? Why would people need that feature?
Apart from that, what is the advantage of Java over more traditionnal languages like Perl or PHP? What is that craziness all about?

Re::) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433974)

and god forbid you want to keep a legacy windows partition. Then you get to wrestle with disklabels and bizzare fdisks. I think Corel's Linux is probably the best choice for newbies, OpenBSD is most certainly not, despite being an excellent system.

And the stickers really do kick ass.

Re:Why _Java_? (0)

zmooc (33175) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433975)

Why?

Enhydra? (2)

Tim Macinta (1052) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433976)

Somebody should add Enhydra [enhydra.org] to the list (I would, but I don't remember my login information for the JavaLobby). Enhydra is a very rockin' application server written in Java. It's open source too, which is always a plus.

offtopic, please moderate as such (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433977)

!!

Re:Java == Server Side Revolution (1)

dyskordus (102372) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433978)

Java is wonderful on the server side, but has failed miserably on the client side.
For a client side revolution, Write Once Run Anywhere simply doesn't work. A different approach should be taken.
It would be wonderful if a completely and totally os-independant, standardized API was developed. The bottom would drop out of porting time, and porting cost.
With a reduced porting cost, revenue from non-mainstream operating systems would be higher, and perhaps profitable. That means, of course more Linux apps, more Mac apps, more BeOS apps.............

Re:Our JServ success story at Webstakes.com (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433979)

...it makes me wonder why so many financial companies have such a love for Netscape Enterprise server or IIS (emphasis mine)

It's because IIS has extremely easy integration with truly heavy duty databases. No other package will let you go from ground zero to an industrial strength database backed site in less time and training. (I mean from complete ground zero - including installing and confinguring all software needed)

Re:Why _Java_? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433980)

Why not.

Re:Java is usable in the servlet arena, but... (2)

trance9 (10504) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433981)


I can't believe you propose to use Python on the server, and in the next sentence you are complaining that Java is slow.

There are lots of great things about Python, it's an amazing lanaguage, and a substantial improvement over Perl. However, speed is not one of it's attributes. Python is dog slow, and Java runs circles around it.

Putting a bytecode interpreter on a PCI card is a bad idea as well. The problem is that you wouldn't have a processor on the card nearly as fast as the one in your PC.

Java is only slow on the server if you compare it with C. Versus any scripting language, it's lighting fast.

With WebMacro [webmacro.org] servlets I find that I get performance equivalent to what I get out of PERL running as an Apache module.. and WM is doing a lot of work for me.

how about this? (5)

macpeep (36699) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433982)

The company I work for recently programmed an SMS (cellular phone text-messages) server complete with a fancy web based user interface and a vCal integration that allows you to synchronize your cellular phone calendar with your desktop calendar automatically with SMS's as the carrier protocol. One team had worked on this for months and months using C/C++ and Perl. The deadline came closer and the app was still packed with bugs. So a hail-Mary manouver was performed only days before the deployment date and the whole thing was re-engineered in Java with parts of the vCal integration being Visual Basic. On the deployment date, we had a ready package which was actually FAR better than the C/C++ & Perl version. It had more features, was more easily integratable with other systems, featured a pluggable SMSC (short message system center) driver architecture, had a fancy self-repairing system which did self-monitoring of the whole thing. We had a home-brew RMI based distributed debugging service that allowed us to receive stack-traces and exceptions that occured at run time, from several servers at once and view them on the web. We had about a million other equally cool things, all put together in less than one week by a handful of programmers.

A few weeks later, there are still no major bugs reported and everything seems to be running perfectly smoothly.

What does this prove? Absolute nothing. However, it does raise some questions about how it's idiotic to just do everything with C/C++ because it's traditionally "the right thing to do". By using "traditional" programming languages, you will often be forced to spend so much time thinking about language issues, memory allocation & leaks, complex threading issues etc. that the application logic will suffer and become a secondary priority.

Pick the right tool for the right job. If you develop a web browser, you would probably be insane if you did it in Java (I would love to be proved wrong) because it would be so much slower. If you develop a complex server side application in C/C++ or Perl, you're nuts because there's NO WAY you will achieve the same quality in the amount of time you can achieve it in Java.

If you diss Java because of some stupid web applets programmed by some 13 year olds who know nothing about programming, it's just very sad because Java can do so much more. Unfortunately we see lots of "write once debug everywhere" statements by people who have little or no first hand experience with Java. The experience I have with Java tells me that while the Win32 platform still has the best virtual machines, Linux is gaining FAST, mostly thanks to IBM. Linux users: don't just use Kaffe because you've heard it's the right thing. Try running Java on a Win32 platform so you see what it CAN be like. I'm quite sure you will be amazed of the speed.

There are not many platform inconsistencies left, and if you know what you're doing, you can easily move a Java app from one platform to another without having to change any code or recompile anything. I've done this several times, even for very large and complex applications.

If you read the Java 2 Enterprise Edition Application Programming Model specification which now has an even more complex name which escapes me at the moment, you will see how SUN has worked hard in the EJB specification to define a great component architecture that is scalable, clusterable and avoids many common causes for platform specific bugs. Please read it!

A client side Java application (4)

gargle (97883) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433983)

A friend and I have just released a Java application. We use encryption to password protect web pages securely (plug: www.guardbot.com [guardbot.com] ). The software comes in 2 parts, a Java applet decoder which performs the on-the-fly decryption of web pages, and a Java encoder which performs the encryption.

Without the Java's write once run anywhere capability, the decoder would have been impossible to deliver succesfully (without resorting to platform specific browser plugins, which would have put off a lot of users). Writing the encoder portion of the software let us deliver the software simultaneously to any Java supporting platform - without Java, we would probably have limited our software to Windows (at least initially).

Client side Java is not worthless, and I'd say that write once run anywhere is an extremely worthwhile goal - I'd very much like to see Sun deliver on this. As it stands, only Solaris and Windows have working Java 2 implementations, which is extremely disappointing.

Re:Does write-once makes sens on the server side? (1)

Visoblast (15851) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433984)

E-commerce servers now often includes Windows NT and commercial UNIX's. If you only have to write it once, then all your clients who do e-commerce can use whatever platform they like without giving you huge amounts of grief in portability problems.

Re:A matter of speed(naive question)? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433985)

Java is NOT an interpreted language: You compile to java byte-code prior to excecution: the hallmark of an interpreted language is execution of your source-code. As far as speed goes, expect a 10-20% performance penalty over native C/C++ code for server-side code. If you're using a GUI (typically client-side), the performance hit can really increase. The real benefit in java is in development time. For serious distributed computing, expect to cut your dev time in half.

Re:Java == Server Side Revolution (1)

TummyX (84871) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433986)


then you benefited from the speed and robustness of the Java platform.


ROFLMAO. Hello Mr McNealy, how's Sun stock doing these days?

If you want to see examples of 'unscalability' etc visit Sun's java bug site.
There are major limitations to java's network support (thread per socket connection for example) that makes it so much less scalable than traditional C/C++ or COM applications.
It'll be interesting to see how java scales when sun get JTS going (ripoff of MTS ofcourse)...unfortunately JTS isn't free.

What I love about java is the language, the platfrom frankly just sucks.
What would be better (now that java is realistic only on the server side) is a cross compiler, many java apps are written one enviroment (say NT) and deployed on another (say Solaris), having a cross compiler would save all those valuable CPU cycles servers need....and it would still be easy for literally _anyone_ to write java apps cause of the simplistic language.

Re:I've had great luck with WORA with servlets (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433987)

ROFL! Portable C/C++, now that is funny. Maybe a "hello world" but beyond that the mixture of hardware, versions, and compilers require lots of #ifdef's.

Java + webmacro speed issues. (1)

fingal (49160) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433988)

I think that I have to agree with this. I don't have equivalent benchmarks running perl, but I spent some time recently playing with webmacro for a client and using the following development machine:
  • 300 AMD K6
  • 128M RAM
  • IDE HDD
and running
  • blackdown jdk 1.1.7
  • Apache + JServ
  • Webmacro
  • MySQL
I was getting a maximum sustainable hit-rate of 25/second with a complete data output of around 250-300 K/s. Considering the low-end spec of the machine, the fact that all the components are running on a single machine and that there are now considerably faster JVM's floating around, I reckon that it should be relatively easy to double this speed without much investment. Either way it is still definately up in the usable range.

Interesting, but irrelevant fact: On profiling the servlets I found that the major time overhead for the complete process was in the jdbc driver (mmmysql) when it was converting byte[] --> String. Memory allocation. Booo. Anyone done any work on getting a mysql/jdbc/webmacro integration that: caches used data buffers and reuses them if possible in the jdbc driver and/or permits direct use of data[] blocks into webmacro without the String overhead?

The slow parts are: (techical) (2)

Visoblast (15851) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433989)

First of all, Java is starting out a bit slow because the JVM (thing that runs Java byte code) is still being improved. Hotspot is a lot faster than the regular 1.2 JVM or the 1.1 JVM's. Speed will improve.

The parts of Java that are slowest, from my experiance, are:

  • GUI
    It still needs work, and I'm not sure that JFC will improve it much. Java software that doesn't use a GUI usually isn't very slow.
  • Object creation
    Making a new object takes time. A bit much time. Minimize usage of the new operatator to maximize performance.
  • Poor programming
    Admit it -- this is the cause of most problems for almost anything.
And yes, as computers get faster Java's speed will be less relavent. But that is true of anything. You probably don't care how long it takes for your email client to do anything, nor do you care how long your computer takes to deal with number crunching for your undergraduate college classes. That is because your computer can do these things so fast that you don't wait long, if at all. Thus, if those actions became twice as fast, you probably wouldn't care becasue you wouldn't notice.

Re:Java is usable in the servlet arena, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433990)

It really depends on the JVM that is used. If the JVM compiles the code before running the app or applet, then it will have a great speed improvement. If its only translated on the fly, it will run much slower.

Why no private individuals use JAVA/Corba (2)

heroine (1220) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433991)

99% of all the posts are concerning corporate projects and every business I've ever seen is doing all their work in Java/Corba so you can satisfy yourself that Java/Corba is required if you want to be employed. At the same time in the non-business world, take a look at Freshmeat and you'll see almost everything done in C and Python. So we have the corporate world using Java almost strictly and the private world using C. Why is the corporate world so allied with Java and the private world so focused on C?

Re:I've had great luck with WORA with servlets (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433992)

Client-side Java was sabotaged by being integrated by startlingly incompetent organizations (the NN and IE authors). The JRE1.2 plugin gives much better results, except that hardly any other platforms have adopted it.

And Java, server- or client-side, is still our best chance at getting safe mobile code, which will be the first important advance in computing since the seventies.

Re::) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1433993)

...except for all your hardware that BSDers decided was unworth of support. (Though they're finally improving, having grudgingly admitted a distro that runs would be handy.)

Re:Java's dead. Get over it. (2)

seaportcasino (121045) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433994)

Java ain't proprietary; it's just still too rapidly evolving to be handed to "api by committee". We should be thanking sun, not condemning them. Once it is mature (as in Unix mature) then let the "api by committee" lord it over the place.

Re:Our JServ success story at Webstakes.com (1)

nabucco (24057) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433995)

I'm a little confused, how is the web server involved with database integration except peripherally? Many of the large commercial application servers give you multiple options for web servers - usually Netscape Enterprise server and IIS (with a little hacking you can usually get Apache and the like, although you give up their NSAPI/ISAPI for a slower CGI).

Apache is very easy to install - configure, make, make install. But it's still very flexible and ready for heavy duty usage as Netcraft attests to. The application server is what has to be integrated with the database, be it Oracle, SQL server or what not...when I'm digging around for Oracle drivers for my Operating System, it's always been for the application server, not the web server

Re:Java Servlets are great! (2)

Roundeye (16278) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433996)

The reason there is so much Java bashing on /. is that Java's client side has not been WORA yet, Sun's PR is awful and has systematically pissed off and alienated much of the Open Source contingent -- which is the bulk of the /. contingent -- particularly recently but steadily over the past year, and in spite of all this bashing there seem to be an endless stream of Sundrones willing to spew the same "but it really is WORA (so long as you're on Win32 or Solaris), and it's not so slow (if you've got a quad processor Xeon or a quad Ultra2), and Sun really isn't out to screw everyone to the wall just to make a $...".

I myself have posted repeatedly on Java issues. My companies have lost months due to Sun and its dicking around with Java. Fortunately we had the insight to get off the Java wagon a few months ago before things got really stupid. For those who can get Java to work for them: great. For those trying to make Java work for them: good luck. For those considering Java: spend your time more wisely and find an alternative -- if you don't have reason to be sorry now I can guarantee you Sun will give you reason within the next few months.

Re:I've had great luck with WORA with servlets (2)

seaportcasino (121045) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433997)

I'll tell you, those Servlets are fantastic. I've changed OSs and Web Servers and my code just doesn't break (expect for one annoying problem, which of course turned out to be my own coding problem!)

Re:Reminds me of the Gary Larson cartoon (1)

JamesKPolk (13313) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433998)

I wish I had some moderation points left, for this post would say (Score:2 Funny) if I had a say.

Though, I'm sure it would very quickly say (Score:1 Flamebait) not long after... and I'm pretty sure that's also an accurate moderation. ;-)

Re:I've had great luck with WORA with servlets (1)

seaportcasino (121045) | more than 14 years ago | (#1433999)

I don't care how portable your ANSI C code is, but that is almost unheard of.

Yeah, and with your ansi C your networking code, database code, threading code, and basically everything else worth mentioning will be left far far behind. I suppose if you were just using your computer as a big calculator that ansi c code might be ok.

Re:Does write-once makes sens on the server side? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434000)

WORA does make sense. There are still many developers using Windows as authoring platform and a *nix system as production environment. Also, according to Murphy, you *will* be faced with the task of migrating your apps to another OS sooner or later (if you're a die-hard Murphy fan, you'd say sooner).

I don't see substantial advantages over PHP or Mod_Perl though. PHP is cross-platform and can even invoke Java methods from inside a script. Indeed, since some weeks PHP can even run as Servlet engine, if you're inclined to want this.

Re:Our JServ success story at Webstakes.com (2)

seaportcasino (121045) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434001)

I'm using Netscape Enterprise right now. I tried an earlier version of apache JServ but didn't have much luck. Does your servlets really run as well on JServ compared to Netscape. NES is supposed to have the best/fastest implementation of servlets out there, but it is a really buggy program with a lousy interface and sometimes I swear worst configuration tool and help I've ever seen. I would LOVE to go to apache, but I'm just waiting to make sure that they've "done it right" with Servlets. Please report what you think of their implementation compared to NES. Thanks!

Re:A matter of speed(naive question)? (1)

OnlyNou (90455) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434002)

java is slow becuase it's not a low level language as C. but that can be compensated with an Athlon 1000Mhz; you'll get plenty of java speed.

of course, some JVMs are faster than others but sooner than later, java speed won't be that much of an issue.

i remember when people weren't happy with perl cgi performance. C coders often complain that it's just not as fast as C, but if you don't notice the speed difference, then it doesn't matter.

Corel Java WP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434003)

Can someone comment on Corel Java WP and Lotus Java eSuite?

Re:Java's dead. Get over it. (1)

ihxo (16767) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434004)

There are many company using java on embeded systems, and many university has changed java as the entry level language, it'll be a nightmare for those University it java is dead.
Javva is far from dead, though I don't really care about it..

Re:Yep, Java is great for server-side (2)

seaportcasino (121045) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434005)

Who woulda thunk it a couple of years ago that a die-hard Linux fan who does a lot of Java and database work would today be saying, "At least there's IBM to look to for real support of Java on Linux without trying to screw us over."

If you actually believe that IBM cares one lick about anything but profits and keeping shareholders happy; if you actually think they wouldn't sell you, me and every other linux nut out for an extra dollar's profit at day's end; if you actually think IBM wouldn't put a hit on Bill Gates if they thought they could get back what Microsoft stole from them; if you do believe any of that, then you are believing exactly what their PR/Marketing dept wants you to believe.

Re:Java == Server Side Revolution (1)

kdart (574) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434006)

It's called POSIX.

--

Wait for version 3.1. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434007)

Most things aren't ready till then. And Java looks like that too. It was changing like crazy in 1.0. It's only just stabilised with 1.2 (and they dare call it Java 2).

What can you do with server side Java which Python , Perl, PHP can't?

How easy is it to split a string in Java? e.g. array=split ,

As far as I know, Java still lags behind. Don't see much point in enduring the pain dealing with a adolescent solution yet.

Plus, another thing - when a colleague was looking at Java for database and web stuff, what put him off was every other step was "pay pay pay". e.g. database connectivity, which you can get free for Perl, Python, PHP etc. He's now doing his stuff on Perl.

I prefer spending time actually doing stuff, rather than looking for tools, or filling out forms to buy tools. And I prefer not to have to make my own nuts and bolts, or look all over the place for decent ones.

Cheerio,

Link.

Re:Java's dead. Get over it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434008)

Nah... writing a java program sure beats the heck out of writing in C. I'm a college student, and no matter what Sun has done, java remains a good language for educational purposes. Here at UC Berkeley we've replaced C with java for an entry level class. On surveys many students end up choosing java as their favorite programming language.

Re:Why no private individuals use JAVA/Corba (2)

trance9 (10504) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434009)

This is just nasty propaganda, with hardly any truth to it.

(1) What's this BS about corporations using Java and private individuals using C? Do you have any evidence of it? It seems like a wildly ridiculous claim at face value. My best guess is you are saying all Linux programs are written in C, whereas the websites corporations build are backed up by Java. That's confused and silly, since those are two different kinds of programs.

(2) What happened to perl? Almost everything done on Freshmeat is NOT python. It's mostly perl and C. I think your biases are showing, as is your lack of factual data.

(3) I am a private individual, self-employed in fact, and I use Java and Perl about equally. I even wrote and contributed a template engine for Java servlets, which you can find on freshmeat, called webmacro [webmacro.org] . It's free under the GPL, go try it out.

Also I don't have any clue why you mentioned CORBA. CORBA certainly has had problems gaining widespread acceptance--but I don't know why you think there is any connection to Java. CORBA is just as well connected to python and C; the Java bindings came fairly late in the process (after python, for example). So while your criticism of CORBA may have a point, it isn't relevant to a discussion on Java.

Re:Java is usable in the servlet arena, but... (1)

mistabobdobalina (29109) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434010)

what is the future of webmacro now that jsp is out???

Re:Wait for version 3.1. (1)

TurkishGeek (61318) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434011)

Plus, another thing - when a colleague was looking at Java for database and web stuff, what put him off was every other step was "pay pay pay". e.g. database connectivity, which you can get free for Perl, Python, PHP etc. He's now doing his stuff on Perl.

Anything that has to do with Java database connectivity comes free with the JDK, except the JDBC drivers, which are to be provided by the RDBMS vendor. My company has paid zilch for Java connectivity to our Oracle servers. Your friend was probably using MS SQL Server, but then, he deserves everything bad.

--

BluetoothCentral.com [bluetoothcentral.com]
A site for everything Bluetooth. Coming in January 2000.

Re:there weren't _that_ many items at that link (1)

mistabobdobalina (29109) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434012)

FYI i posted an ask /. [slashdot.org] awhile back on opensource java app servers, spurred some pretty good discussion

Re:WebMacro, Java servlets, and other comments (1)

mistabobdobalina (29109) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434013)

please elaborate on why JSP is not a good choice - seems to be getting a lot of traction...

These benchmarks disagree... I disagre... (2)

Analogue Kid (54269) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434014)

I've done a bit of Java programming myself, and I sure can't say that it strikes me as particularly fast in terms of development time. Perhaps for something relatively large it's faster than C. But I have never found an app which can be more quickly developed in Java than it could with say... Perl. Java is so strongly typed that it takes forever to parse data (which is a big deal for making web content draw from databases). Also, I've found that not only C, but even purely interpreted languages such as Sed or Perl yield better execution speeds as well.

Don't take my word for it, though. In Kernigan and Pike's classic, The Practice of Programming (C 1999), there's a pretty decent comparison. In the design and implimentation chapter they implement a Markov Chain algorithm as a decent test of perfomance/speed of development comparison between several languages. Here are the results:

PentiumII400MHz ----- Lines of source code
C ----- 0.30sec --------------- 150
Java --- 9.2 ------------------ 105
C++ --- 1.5 ------------------- 70
Awk ---2.1 ------------------- 20
Perl --- 1.0 ------------------- 18

Looking at the results above, Java doesn't look like much of a winner at anything. It comes in dead last in execution speed, and edges out only C (the performance winner) in development speed (based upon lines of code). Perl on the other hand, is a contender. As I see it, Java's only true strength is its propaganda machine.

Re:Java is usable in the servlet arena, but... (3)

trance9 (10504) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434015)

WebMacro [webmacro.org] will gradually kill JSP :-) In fact, it was recently selected in a Java Report survey as one of the best three servlet products of 1999.

JSP is not a good use of the Java langauge. It's non-standard, and requires extra junk in your webserver (whereas WM works in any pure Java environment, without requiring add ons). On top of that, it doesn't take advantage of Java's features. It looks and smells like ASP, and as a result, obscures your ability to write good clean Java code.

If that's the kind of programming you want to do, you should look into EMBPERL. It does a much better job of mixing script codes into HTML.

My view is that you should NEVER mix program logic and HTML together. WebMacro implements a template langauge, the idea being that all your rendering logic and HTML goes in the template--leaving your servlet as pure and simple Java code.

JSP's model is the opposite, though they claim you can do MVC programming with it. (A claim they started pushing *after* WM was announced, by the way :-)

With JSP you can do MVC programming, keeping your busines logic separate from your display logic, but you have to enforce it yourself. Every time you do anything everywhere you have to follow self-imposed rules. Late some tired night you'll get fed up and sick some Java into your HTML--like a cancer it'll grow, until the point in separating them is lost.

WebMacro, or any other template system, supports the model/view/controller way of thinking architecturally. It's analogous to doing OO programming in an OO language, as opposed to in C. Separating display from logic in JSP is like doing OO programming in C--it's possible, but the language doesn't really support it.

It is worth repeating that I created WebMacro in response to JSP. I had come from a perl/C++ background, and had made extensive use of good template systems in both langauges. Coming to Java, I naturally expected to have a good template system, so I looked at JSP. When JSP turned out not to be a template oriented system, I naturally wrote one and GPL'd it :-)

Of course I'm biased. However, I will say that the bias caused me to write WM, and not the other way around :-)

Java != WORA (1)

Ice Tiger (10883) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434016)

Because Java is not Open Source you can only run the servlet on whatever platform sun deems you to have. So even if you had a JVM that could with a recompile run on any of the Linux hardware platforms, tough because Sun deem that Linux is x86 and nothing more.

As for those of you that say making Java a GPL product would fork it to death, then why has this not happened for example with the Linux kernel? Think about it. If Java was GPL it might have been using CORBA from the start instead of RMI and it might bind to OpenGL instead of it's own Java3D. In fact you might have Open OS's intigrating Java into themselves in such a way that the VM becomes part of the kernel.

A GPL Java with Sun acting as it's Linus would probably be more in goal with the actual language design criteria than it's closed source form is now. There are many platforms which would be excellent for servlets, which could have become the glue for exchanging data from platform to platform but unfortunatly this is not the case right now as the limited JVM ports impeed this.

Java is the BEST!!! (0)

Schnake (99890) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434017)

Java is the best thing to happen to computing. Not the JavaVM, but Java the language. It is the refined version of C combined with SmallTalk. If Microsoft did try to exploit it, we would end up with it being the dominant platform after Visual Basic. Forget Visual C++, it would not exist, when MSJava could be made to do twice the code in half the time, and still be extremely readable, and extremely object oriented. And its speed would be as fast as a C application, because there would be direct to x86 code compilation.

Now, the Linux guys are stingy, because Java was never a big thing on Linux, no vendor would support it! The pure-C guys are stingy, because they would rather toil over hours of code in order to be one level above direct control of the machine.

And furthermore, Sun is doing great making Java as proprietary as possible. Sun has the speed, and enough hatred of Microsoft, to keep pushing Java to become a very full-featured platform, and even maintain their write-once-run-anywhere promise. A standards body is the death of any technology, because they're slow! Sun ofcourse has the perfect model for letting Java grow, it controls how, everybody else suggests... Consumers demand, Sun listens and decides.

I have used PHP/Perl/ColdFusion.. Java Rocks!!! (1)

Pengo (28814) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434018)


I don't think that I will ever go back to anything else. I -love- JSP/Servletes. I have been able to increase my development time significantly and the performance is not (in my perception) lower than Perl or PHP.

Oracle has made a HUGE commitment to the java world with its Oracle8i server and Java Stored Procedure integration. (Hell of a lot better than PL/SQL!!).

With big players like IBM/Oracle pushing the backend, I would hardly say that Java is DEAD. Even if sun doesn't release the API to a standards commitie, someone will standardize it. I don't *fully* understand the problem with sun being a steward over the API _for now_?


I agree that what they did to Blackdown was a bit lame, but welcome to the corporate world.

In the end, I can use Tomcat or Jrun (at no cost) and it allows me to do my job quickly and very low cost. I am working on a large and complex side project, and right now the development machine is sitting on a Compaq Pentium 90 with 96 megs of ram. After the JSP Pages are compiled and sitting in Ram, the thing goes surprisingly zippy.


If performance is an upper end issue, you can load balance the application server in a cluster.

You can start development on a compaq pentium 90 running linux, and move it to a 64 cpu SGI machine if that tickles your fancy!

I believe that Java offers the most flexible solution for my needs, but I do have a choice. I don't understand the Java bashing on Slashdot, I really enjoy the stability and managability that it gives me.

Java on the server solves a Unixflaw (1)

Otis_INF (130595) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434019)

I think java on the server is so successful in Unix land because it solves a serious flaw in OS design: the availability of Binairy Objects on OS level. When you build an e-commerce system you can choose between (besides the HTML :)): a) writing it all in C/C++ or other binairy compiling language (not many do that) b)a scripting language or c)Java. Choosing a) has the drawback that however you probably can use objects within C++ or object pascal, it's hard to share these objects between pages in your e-commerce system. Choosing the scripting language gives you the sharable objects (if you use PHP for example) but these objects are living in an interpreted language environment. When your system needs speed because of the high load, it's not that recommended. Choosing Java on the server brings you an optimized binairy world, with binairy objects using CORBA. Because of the usage of a JIT it's faster than scripting languages plus the binairy objects available with CORBA bring more advantages than the scripting languages do: the sharable objects are binairy and optimized for execution by the JIT. Advantages, it's hard to say, people at NT with IIS are having for years: binairy, speedy COM objects used in ASP scripts on the server. Java on the server bridges this gap, but only with CORBA.

Re:WebMacro, Java servlets, and other comments (2)

trance9 (10504) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434020)


Basically because in order to use JSP you have to give up most of the advantages that the Java language offers you. If you're going to do that, you would be better off using EMBPERL intead.

If you're going to abandon the design capabilities of the Java langauge, and just use it as an embedded script language, you should consider using a different language, such as perl or python, which are really much better scripting languages than Java is.

Java is a powerful *design* language. It's got all kinds of strengths in that area. If you're not going to benefit from those features, why use Java?

WebMacro takes a different approach. WM assumes that you do want to do most of your programming in Java. It steps completely out of your way and allows you to implement all your program logic in standard Java. Java is an excellent, extremely powerful langauge.

What WM does instead is provide you with a set of classes which can be used to load and execute HTML templates. These templates don't contain any program logic, though they might contain some display logic.

What JSP is good at is attracting non-Java programmers to the Java platform. It's modelled after ASP, and ASP programmers are going to find it more familiar than if they'd made a cold leap into the Java language as a whole.

This is good for Java. But it is not necessarily good Java. The ASP programming model isn't well suited to the Java language.

yaY for java (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434021)

i wonder what would happen if somebody tried to catalog all of the C success stories on the javalobby sight? probably crash the thing :P...

i'm getting a bit sick of all this deer-in-the-headlights hype over java. first java was the great applet language. once that failed, people took the write-once run-anywhere philosophy and decided that java was going to take over the client. now that java has been proved fairly useless on the client (how many applications that we use are written in java?), people start the java-on-the-server (?!) bandwagon. *please*, if we are running it on a *server* we know the architecture, we can use something called a "compiler" (btw, C code compiles on a hell of a lot more platforms than java ever will). if we are writing a server app, we better know when the memory gets allocated and freed, and we better have good design and methodology. java will never replace good engineering and sound design. give me my faster C / C++ / Perl / Python "servlets" anyday over Sun's proprietary hyped java garbage.

3% branding fee anyone?

How about a meaningful comparison??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434022)

Why don't you develop a multi-threaded, distributed piece of code in Perl and Java.

Let me know how many lines of code that takes you.

Or in C. Add a third column called "Core dumps".

Re:how about this? (1)

DreamerFi (78710) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434023)

What does this prove? Absolute nothing.

On the contrary. It proves you've got a damn good developer, who knows how to pick the right tool to do a succesful Hail Mary, and who has the know-how to pull it off. Good job.

-John

Have you used mod_perl? (2)

Paul Crowley (837) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434024)

I'd love to have a go with this, though I don't know if Kaffe/Classpath/Apache currently does it. Have you had a play with Apache's mod_perl, though? That's the technology that drives Slashdot itself - integration of a Perl interpreter with the webserver, that allows damn fine perfomance and scads of flexibility.
--

Like between you and "Analogue Kid"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434025)

It looks to me like he made a pretty clear argument... even if he can't spell 'implement' the same way twice. ;)

I've seen the implementations of the Markov Chains, too. What's your bitch with them? Both C and Perl have been used for much larger "multi-threaded, distributed pieces of code." Perl still beats Java hands down in both areas (though Java's execution time has improved 2%-3% since the writing of The Practice of Programming). C of course cleans up in execution speed, but is hell to develop. But what in the name of all things rational are you talking about with a column for core dumps!? Kernigan and Pike write better code than that. The core dumps column would just be 0's.

Are you implying that C and Perl are useless for anything big? Why do you have to make an inflamitory post just because you don't like what you hear!!? You're argument's senseless, you're a dickhead, and you're wrong!!!

Uh, like no or something (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434026)

No. What I'm saying is that for developing stable, multi-threaded, network or distributed code, Java's development time kills C or Perl.

Perl's socket implementation is crap. It's doesn't recover very well from network interruptions.

C, while extremely fast, is a bear to code threads and tedious for networking.

Don't get me wrong. I love perl. At my last job, that's about all I used for projects large and small.

Now I'm doing tons of disributed multithreaded code. Java has really cut down on dev time.

Okay. Go ahead and call me some more names. It makes your posts more convincing.

native code compilers? (1)

browser_war_pow (100778) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434027)

Didn't microsoft and symantec each create one for win32? I heard that there is going to be a gnu one in the future. Java would gain more respect if the JVM would give the user the option to compile to native code so it runs almost like a native app the next go around

Re:Java == Server Side Revolution (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434028)

Much less scalable? Where do you come up with that at?

Where java has not yet begun to shine. (1)

bons (119581) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434029)

The main problems with java have been speed (or lack thereof) and portability (the fact that many people do not want it).

Let's look at any discussion of frames, graphics, the Opera Browser, or other aspect of web design. People code for their perceived top 95% (Netscape & IE 5.0+ running on Windows). We're used to everyone who uses Opera, Linus, Mac, or NoFrames just getting the shaft. We don't like and and we protest, but we are no longer surprised.

Java is only accepted as a serious application choice when there is a need to run on more (not all) machine types. (Let's be real, if you claim Java is viewed by everyone you've just screwed over those Lynx users on dumb terminals. They're still out there.)

With the new processors coming out (Alpha vs Intel) it will be interesting to see if the compiler market supports both processors equally. If they do not it will either mean a death for one of the processors or an increased demand for Java.

Currently, in my opinion, the forgotten market of choice would be education. Since schools and universities tend to have a wide spectrum of machine types available and since speed is not normally a factor in educational software, then Java fit's the bill perfectly.

Currently I'm working on two alife (artificial life) applets. Java is fast enough for alife (where speed is desireable) on Windows and portable enough that I can be sure other people will be able to use and study these applets. If I was to do this work in C, it would make a decent thesis, but it would be limited to people who A: like to download unknown .exe files, and b: like to read college papers. (Wait. that would be nobody...)

Re:Yep, Java is great for server-side (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434030)

That should get a score of funny...
Imagine the PR stink they would have to deal with from ordering a hit on the worlds richest man
LOL!

Re:Corel Java WP (1)

ben dovar (131194) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434031)

How about all other non-java clients apps be tossed for browser based clients. It ain't just java that sucks on the client.

My, aren't we a bit touchy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434032)

I suppose the only meaningful comparisons would be those that speak the glory of java hmm?

I agree (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434033)

My companies servlets run mostly without incident on both Solaris and Windows. We mostly run into problem with JDK classes that make native calls. Often one will work properly on Windows but not on Solaris. I have been told that weird as it sounds the reference JVM is developed on NT so the work to port it to Solaris introduces bugs. You think they would develop on Solaris.

Re:yaY for java (1)

ben dovar (131194) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434034)

Perl & Python & C++ Ha ha, java's got those beat - I guess then you are used to really sucky C performance as well.

We need a new moderation category...Insulting! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434035)

This guy makes a decent point, but geez! Not only does he personally attack one guy but he even has to nit-pick at the spelling of the one he's defending. Sigh. Free speech is ugly sometimes.

Re:First you will need (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1434036)

and sndconfig. have you installed the greatest distro there is - redhat ?

It's not that Java is slow... (1)

ben dovar (131194) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434037)

It that it is easier to hide sloppy algorithms in C. Not that I have anything against C.

"Write once, run anywhere" _achieved_ by _Java_??? (1)

Florian (2471) | more than 14 years ago | (#1434038)

You wrote:
"Perhaps WORA [write once, run anywhere] really has been achieved, at least for server apps."
Even if WORA is true for Java on servers, Java has certainly not achieved it. Please remember Perl, please don't forget Python (which IMHO is at least as complete, consistent and clean as Java for building serious applications). Funny that one has to mention this on Slashdot!
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