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Croal vs. Totilo - Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the battle-of-the-titans dept.

The Media 75

Another round of considered commentary from two game journalism luminaries is now completed, and ready for your consumption. Newsweek's Croal and MTV's Totilo go back and forth on the merits of those 'other' console shooters, the ones without Halo in the title. What follows is a fascinating conversation focused on the titles BioShock and Metroid 3, with a wide-range of topics explored. They touch on the importance of a memorable opening, the sense of empowerment required for a good game, and a few words on what may have been lost in the move to 3D in the Metroid series. 'There's a very real argument to be made that something was lost in the transition from 2D to 3D, which is what the Wii's backers have been happy to talk about. While it's worth exploring why the transition ruined things for some gamers, I think little has been discussed about why other gamers didn't lose touch and what kind of tastes may have developed in those of us who stayed hardcore on both sides of the break. What do such gamers have to add to a discussion that so often deals only with the lapsed 2D gamers and the children of the 3D era, to say nothing of the outsider casuals?'"

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Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be happy. (5, Insightful)

trdrstv (986999) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699541)

If you want to compare both, you need to play both. I do recommend BioShock first however since Metroid simply controls better than any Dual analog FPS could. If you play Metroid first you may you might deduct points on BioShock for a control scheme that was natural before, but now feels "clunky". For the record, I prefer Metroid Prime 3 controls over Dual Analog & PC FPS's.

While mouse sensitivity is still greater than the Wiimote (at least here, but it is a narrowing margin) The Analog stick kicks the shit out of WASD.

Both are stellar games however, if you own a Wii60, buy both.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (2, Interesting)

HalAtWork (926717) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699791)

I like both too. Bioshock is a good experience for me since I haven't enjoyed an FPS since Doom and Doom II... Bioshock takes it back to the roots of what made an FPS a lot of fun for me, the killing in a new and thrilling environment. You don't have to worry about vehicles, you get most things available to you within the first couple of hours of gameplay, and the rest of the game is spent enjoying the level structure, interesting enemy dynamics and situations unique to this game, an interesting ability upgrade system, and multiple ways to play through the same level. Every style of gameplay is accomodated, so everyone can enjoy the game no matter how they play (RE4 does this too I believe). To me I think part of this often overlooked aspect is due to the fact that there is no multiplayer so they didn't have to balance things for player vs player.

Metroid Prime 3 is an excellent style of game (find upgrades, access new areas, defeat unique and interesting boss characters) taken to a new level with interesting architecture to move around in, especially because jumping and manouvering through the levels in various ways is a focus, unlike other FPSes, which makes it interesting to traverse the levels. The enemies are somewhat dumb but there're lots of them and they're very unique, often not even humanoid. Plus, like everyone says, the controls.

They're both very worth playing.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (0)

wisenboi (1154441) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699861)

It's not so much a matter of that for the preliminaries. You need to also look at the people who are critiquing the games. MTV and Newsweek. Companies who have no real grasp of solid console and/or computer gaming beyond anything that doesn't require much intellecet. MTV has a demographic of indecisive, low attention, fickle viewers. The value of any critic on their staff for video games can't and shouldn't be taken seriously versus any other critic from a gaming site or group that does what they do for a living (yes they're even biased but at least they're not from a former music station or newspaper company, either of which never really started into gaming in the first place). In short, there's no point arguing which is better based on the sources that argue for or against either one. Both are awesome games in their own respect. I'd rather hear or read from other groups than MTV or newsweek, groups out of their league in terms of gaming and esp. of critiquing them.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (1)

C0rinthian (770164) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700525)

You haven't read the vs. discussion then. It's suprisingly deep discussion of game design, and both make interesting arguments.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (1)

morari (1080535) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699867)

The Analog stick kicks the shit out of WASD.
Precisely why I use , . alt and right mouse button instead! ;)

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20700073)

While mouse sensitivity is still greater than the Wiimote

My penis after a week long, methamphetamine fueled masturbation session is more sensitive than the Wiimote.

I don't want to be seen as a Wii hater, so I'll also point out that my penis is more popular than the PS3 and has a lower failure rate than the 360.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20700383)

I don't want to be seen as a Wii hater, so I'll also point out that my penis is more popular than the PS3 and has a lower failure rate than the 360.

Okay, but we really _don't_ want to hear about the red ring that appeared on it yesterday morning.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20700401)

In all fairness, herpes is more popular than the PS3, and the Ford Pinto has a lower failure rate than the 360.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20700341)

"The Analog stick kicks the shit out of WASD"

What a massively absurd conclusion.

Duct tape a paint-ball gun to the hood of golf cart and enter a match. That way you can simulate and appreciate a real-world analogy to playing a FPS with a joystick.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (1)

Salamande (461392) | more than 6 years ago | (#20701219)

He didn't say it kicked the shit out of a mouse (which would be silly, yes), he said WASD - the other side of the equation. I'd certainly agree.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20700659)

You PC mouthbreathers need to stop deluding yourselves that you need Macs, or even that you're Mac-compatible at all. Real Mac users don't use Macs for the image, you pencil-pushers--it's not about being cool. It's about finding the right OS for your personality. And sorry to say, but most of you people just don't belong on the Mac.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (1)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700759)

So, what you are saying is that I don't belong on a mac because I'm not an elitist prick? Gotcha.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20703823)

no he's been saying to shave your fucking neckbeard and grow the fuck up and stop being a douchebag. Have a nice day.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (1)

khellendros1984 (792761) | more than 6 years ago | (#20709217)

I own a Mac. I also own a PC. I don't see the point of elitism over either one. It's just an OS choice, you don't need to be rude about it either way. That being said, you've reinforced the stereotype of Mac users being complete and total fuckrods. Nice going, asshat.

Why I didn't buy BioShock. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20703911)

Looks fantastic. Downloaded the demo off of live, played maybe a little more fantastic. All in all looked like a great single player experience, maybe one of the best, and I've heard nothing to make me doubt this estimation. But it's just a single player experience. I thought gears was a lot of fun single player too, played through the campaign several times before trying online play. But yeah, going up against other people, that's where the real fun is. BioShock not having it makes me really question whether it is worth the money. Ok, 40 hours and then what? Versus something like 100s of hours for Gears.

Re:Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock. Play both, be hap (1)

IIIKrazyKiDDIII (1007019) | more than 6 years ago | (#20711969)

The Wii remote will not do good on competitive FPS's though. Try playing counterstrike with a wii remote vs a pc player. You will get pwned all day long. You might want to think about your statement with analog vs WASD...

wheres my feet?! (1)

BlueshiftVFX (1158033) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699583)

my problem with any first person shooter game is when it comes to making jumps count you cant look down and see your feet. In metroid of 2D platform jumping was part of the game. To a degree it is still in the 3D metroids as well. but nothing is more frustrating then trying to make a jump when you have no idea where your feet are and falling because of it.

Re:wheres my feet?! (1)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699617)

I haven't played Prime 3, but I know that the first two Primes had the best first-person jumping I've ever personally seen...I never had a problem determining a jump, and rarely did I have to try more than once to make said jump (compared to something like Mario Sunshine, in which some jumps take repeated attempts) You have a massive amount of control over Samus in mid-air in the original games, and that is something that DID in fact translate well into 3D

Re:wheres my feet?! (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#20721457)

I think this comes from the fact that most 3D platformers are 3rd person, which, while being great in theory, also have some severe handicaps. It's much harder judging exact depth in 3rd person than in 1st person. The 3rd person games tend to vissually resemble their 2d counterparts more, which gives them a bit more nostolgic feel, but they become clumsy in their control. Mario 64 wasn't nearly as precise to control as Mario 3/Mario World. You may not know exactly where your feet are when in first person, but you learn to account for the added distance very quickly, and can make very precise movements. Also, not having to worry about a camera is an added bonus.

3rd person is great for adventure games that don't require precision in placement. It's perfect for RPGs, in which all action elements are computer controlled, and Zelda does incredibly well, since close combat is much better represented. Pure platformers, though, are attrocious in 3rd person. Metroid Prime would have been aweful in 3rd person, and Mario 64 and Sonic Adventure really lost alot of ground in their series due to lack of control.

Re:wheres my feet?! (1)

LKM (227954) | more than 6 years ago | (#20726811)

I think Mario Sunshine really nailed the third-person platforming aspects with the "floating" water cannon. This helped you manage platforms, and it also gave you some reference of where you are via the streams of water going down from your pipes.

Re:wheres my feet?! (1)

Steauengeglase (512315) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700021)

In the Prime games the character looks down for a half second when quickly nearing ledges and jumping.

Re:wheres my feet?! (1)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 6 years ago | (#20705223)

I've heard this complaint a lot. Now, with a flat screen, you don't have the advantage of stereoscopic vision and you have to instead rely (mostly) on relative motion of objects on the screen. This naturally means that level design is important to implementing a successful first-person jumping experience: the jumps need a lead-up to gauge parallax, rather than requiring jumps in close quarters.

But beyond that... do you need to look down at your feet when you walk in real life?

Re:wheres my feet?! (1)

BlueshiftVFX (1158033) | more than 6 years ago | (#20705503)

no but like you said, there is a diference in the feild of view looking at a TV. Ever played the original Turok? that game was fun for the most part. I enjoyed running around like a maniac with just the knife. or sometimes using the obscenly powerful weapons. it was fun until the whole game came to a halt while I tried to pass this f#%King jumping from moving pillar to moving pillar. the running around killing dinosaurs with a rambo knife? fun in a game but no way in real life (Obviously) the jumping from little platform to platform? boring in real life but I could do it. Infuriating in the game. Mind you for the most part Metroid is much better for the jumping puzzles then Turok was.

Re:wheres my feet?! (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#20721757)

I agree completely. And stereoptics is actually pretty weak. The eye judges distance MOSTLY from other kinds of visual cues besides stereoptics. I think people will find that if they played a game with a stereoptic screen, it wouldn't actually be that much better, if really at all.

I honestly think that people complain about first-person platformers, NOT because of precision movement, but because they don't as closely resemble their 2D counterparts. If people are used to looking at, and identifying their characters in 2D, they often ask for the same in a 3D environment. Unfortunately, this is a lot harder and more subjective arguement to make, so most simply default on the "3rd person is more precise" arguement, which I believe to be completely untrue. Play Mario 64, then play Metroid Prime 1, and I dare you to tell me that Mario 64 is more precise. There's really no comparion, first person wins hands down on that one. We're more used to first-person anyway, since we control ourselves from a first-person standpoint. As you said, you don't need to look at your feet in real life when you walk, you've just learned to take into account the added distance your feet will be from the bottom of your vision. I find myself doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING in Prime 1, and my jumps are within inches of where I want them to be, and completely perfect in side/side dimensions. In Mario 64, I may be over a foot off in both X and Y dimensions. As I said, there's no comparion.

Now, Mario 64 would suck in first person. Not because of control, but because of concept. The cartoony presence of Mario is essential to the game's look and feel. A game without Mario without his hat and big nose on the screen would simply not feel like a Mario game, because his character essentially makes the series what it is. Basically, the Mario series is fucked either way in 3D, which is why its 3D games will NEVER reach the level of Mario 3 or Mario World.

Metroid is different, however. Samus's presence, while it became an expected tradition in the series, is not central to the game's look & feel. In fact, her presence is actually a distraction to the environment, which is really the core of what makes the series what it is. When in 2D, Samus's sprite could be relatively small on the screen, but 3D characters must, by nature, take up a lot more room on the screen. Having a big orange/yellow robot suit taking up half the height of the screen, at all times, would be a huge detriment in the player's immersion in the surrounding environment. Add to that the fact that shooting is much more natural in first person, not needing camera control, and more precision in jumping, and the choice to go first-person in the Metroid series becomes unbelievably clear.

Funny thing is, Samus was not really much of a character prior to Prime/Fusion. For all the complaints that "first person viewpoint takes away from character portrayal", there really wasn't much of any character development prior to the 3rd person games. Probably the best in the series, for that, was Zero Mission, but that was months later, and Prime 1 isn't that far off in it's character portrayal. Samus's character really isn't important to her series, I hate to say... her story is intriguing, but her personality is completely non-existant. So any complaints that first-person viewpoint takes away from character portrayal is kind of moot, anyway.

Re:wheres my feet?! (1)

Orange Crush (934731) | more than 6 years ago | (#20745945)

. . . her story is intriguing, but her personality is completely non-existant

I think Samus should hook up with Link. They'd have so much to talk about.

3d ruined Metroid (1)

Henry V .009 (518000) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699639)

I enjoy the 2d Metroid games a lot. The 3d games range from horrible (3d on the DS, what the hell?) to "Meh."

In my opinion, the 3d games ruined the franchise. They turned Metroid into Zelda in space.

Zelda itself didn't fare too well in the 3d transition. Playing Minish cap on my Gameboy reminded me just how good things used to be.

Re:3d ruined Metroid (2, Funny)

Chineseyes (691744) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700115)

3D ruined chess too.....oh wait.

Re:3d ruined Metroid (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20700521)

Metroid Prime Hunters for the DS was not developed by Retro Studios, and pretty much every fan of the Metroid Prime series agrees that it sucked. Unfortunately, pretty much every other Metroid fan out there disagrees with you and thinks that Metroid Prime was a perfect translation from 2D to 3D.

Re:3d ruined Metroid (2, Interesting)

Jackmon (170028) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700689)

I have to strongly disagree. The 3D transition wasn't really a transition. It was the beginning of a totally different franchise. The 2D Metroid games were great (and they still are). There's just nothing in Metroid Prime like the arcade-style simplicity and precision of control that 2D allows. 2D games just have a certain appeal that can't be achieved in 3D no matter how many pixels or Gflops you throw at them. Nevertheless Metroid Prime was such a perfect combination of 1st person shooter and puzzle-solving/exploration. The subtleties of mood and sense of wonder the 3D Metroid games are able to convey is so far beyond anything in 2D Metroid games that I just don't think they can be compared. Honestly, it blows me away that anyone could play MP and come away with a "meh" reaction. But to each his own.

I feel the same way about the Zelda franchise. It's really 2 franchises. The puzzle-solving/power-ups/exploration is shared between both. But games like Minish Cap are just too different from something like Twilight Princess to truly deserve comparison. (I'm a big fan of both btw).

Re:3d ruined Metroid (1)

danbert8 (1024253) | more than 6 years ago | (#20707923)

2D games just have a certain appeal that can't be achieved in 3D no matter how many pixels or Gflops you throw at them.
I disagree. I think Super Mario 64 converted the original 2d Mario experience superbly to 3d. Then again, it was a 3rd person camera, which makes a big difference, and wouldn't work for a FPS (obviously).

Re:3d ruined Metroid (1)

cowscows (103644) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700703)

I think that the 3D zelda games (in particular the N64 ones) are some of the greatest games ever. Although I love the original Zelda as well. Zelda 2 was different than the original, but still 2d, and I don't care for it much.

I've enjoyed what I've played of Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii so far. I never gave the GC versions a shot. I went back and tried to play the original metroid again a couple years ago, and couldn't really get into it.

I guess my point is, it's too bad you're not that big a fan of 3D games. It must be a tough time for you.

Re:3d ruined Metroid (1)

Glytch (4881) | more than 6 years ago | (#20701035)

The original Metroid was good compared to its' contemporary competitors, but it's totally outclassed by Super Metroid in every way. If you get the chance, try Super Metroid. It's also worth trying Metroid Zero Mission. It's basically a remake of the original, but with all the gameplay problems fixed.

As for Prime and Prime 2, they're easily on par with any Xbox/PS2/PS3/360 FPS in terms of gameplay and art direction, but after experiencing Prime 3's elegant control style you might have a hard time downgrading to an analog stick FPS.

Re:3d ruined Metroid (1)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 6 years ago | (#20708325)

And if you actually enjoy Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid: Zero Mission... then for the love of the gods, stay the hell away from Metroid Fusion.

A Linear Metroid? WTF were they smoking?!

Re:3d ruined Metroid (1)

khellendros1984 (792761) | more than 6 years ago | (#20709245)

*quietly, to avoid the flames* I liked them all....the exploration of new places and upgrading Samus with kickass new the fact that Metroid games tend to be more challenging than a lot of the crap out there right now!

Re:3d ruined Metroid (1, Interesting)

grumbel (592662) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700779)

Metroid on DS was plain awful, the Primes weren't that bad, but I don't consider all that great either. I don't blame this on 3D, but mainly on the first person view. When jumping is a central part of the gameplay it just flat out sucks to not have a body. Which not only makes jumps annoying (even so Prime was always rather tolerant in that aspect) it also, and this is far more important, makes them uninteresting. In the 2D Metroid you had way more possibilities when jumping, you had the ledge-grab, walljumps, screw-jump and could combine them more or less freely, in the 3D ones some of that is still present, but its degraded to a special gimmick that you use in a few special places, not everywhere you want.

I would love to see a 3D third person Metroid next. While 2D is fun, they also tend to just be clones of SuperMetroid. A third person Metroid would give the freedom to do something new without losing the core of the 2D ones.

Re:3d ruined Metroid (1)

edwdig (47888) | more than 6 years ago | (#20701923)

I enjoy the 2d Metroid games a lot. The 3d games range from horrible (3d on the DS, what the hell?) to "Meh."

Metroid on the DS was just an FPS game with Samus thrown in. It's not a real Metroid game.

Prime 1 felt like Super Metroid from a different camera angle. Slower moving, but just about all 3D games are slower than 2D games.

Prime 2 and 3 are Super Metroid with some elements of Fusion thrown in.

Zelda itself didn't fare too well in the 3d transition. Playing Minish cap on my Gameboy reminded me just how good things used to be.

It's not the transition to 3D that's hurt Zelda. It's Miyamoto handing control over to Eiji Aonuma. Aonuma doesn't like the 2D Zeldas much and prefers story driven games over exploration driven.

Re:3d ruined Metroid (1)

Khaed (544779) | more than 6 years ago | (#20704807)

I have to respectfully disagree. I grew up on the NES and SNES, and loved the Metroid and Zelda series's. I'm the biggest Zelda/Metroid fan I know.

I absolutely adore the 3D games. Twilight Princess is my second favorite Zelda game ever (after A Link to the Past), and the Metroid Prime series has yet to disappoint.

It's all down to a personal preference. I feel that Twilight Princess had a very good grasp of what was GREAT about Zelda 3, and I feel that the Prime series translated the exploration and feel of Super Metroid very well.

Re:3d ruined Metroid (1)

Emetophobe (878584) | more than 6 years ago | (#20711653)

(3d on the DS, what the hell?)

The control scheme on the DS version of Metroid was absolutely horrible, the game itself was okay, but I had major issues with the controls. It's the only game I can think of in recent memory where the control scheme actually caused me great amounts of pain. I'm no stranger to game induced pain, I used to get blisters after playing SNES games for hours on end. Also, I used to suffer from mild carpel tunnel from all the PC gaming I did a couple years ago, but that pales in comparison to the amount of pain I got while trying to play Metroid DS.

The way the control scheme was set up, you had to hold the DS with your left hand while simultaneously using the D-PAD and the top left button. Imagine clenching your left hand in a fist, now imagine using your thumb to control the D-PAD while simultaneously using your index finger to control the top left button on the DS, all the while the remaining 3 fingers are used to hold onto the DS. Well you can't just use those 3 fingers to hold the DS as they are on placed on the back of the DS, you also need your thumb to help clench the DS, but the problem is you also need that thumb to use the D-PAD. You may be wondering, why don't you just use your right hand to help hold the DS... Well you can't use your right hand as you use your right hand to hold the stylus pen so you can look around, aim, etc...

I couldn't even play the game for more than 15 minutes before my left hand was so cramped I had to stop playing. I tried lots of different ways of holding the DS as I really wanted to enjoy the game, but I could never find a pain-free way of controlling it. I ended up shelving that game and I haven't touched it since.

Prime is one of the best games of all time. (1)

LKM (227954) | more than 6 years ago | (#20726839)

First of all, I too was disappointed with the 3D DS Metroid. The DS is perfect for Metroidvania games, as the two Castlevanias have shown. Now Hunters is not a bad game; in fact, it is one of the best games on the DS, and the best portable FPS you can have, even winning against a whole bunch of dual-analog FPS with its control scheme. Still, I agre with you: I would have preferred a 2D Metroid on the DS.

However, the Metroid Prime games on the Cube are clearly amongst the best games ever made. In fact, the first Metroid Prime is the third-best ranked game ever on gamerankings, and it deserves that place. It is an awesome, great game; probably one of the best 2D->3D switches ever. No other franchise did it that well; few can even compare (maybe Super Mario, Zelda and Prince of Persia - although the 2D Marios and Zeldas are still way better than the 3D versions).

Yes, it's not a 2D Metroid. Yes, we all want a new 2D Metroid. No, that doesn't mean it's a bad game.

Re:3d ruined Metroid (1)

spocksbrain (1097145) | more than 6 years ago | (#20755851)

I think I just heard the sound of the 7.6 million "Ocarnia of Time" owners go "MUUUAAAAHHHH???!?!?!?"

Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20699641)

Let's one corner you have a mediocre follow up to a pc gaming classic with a huge marketing budget that was used to obtain high review scores and tons of media hype


A weak follow up to one of the best games last gen with stupid Wii controls tacked on.

Neither game is worth arguing or discussing. Too many other high quality games out this year.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (5, Insightful)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699709)

Based on you saying this, I can only assume you haven't played either game for more than 5 a long time first person shooter fan (played them since Catacomb 3D) and as a die hard System Shock/SS2 fan, I can say that BioShock does indeed deserve every outstanding review that it gets...the controls are tight, the weapons are well balanced, the plasmids make for some VERY interesting fights, and the graphics are quite pretty.

As a fan of the metroid series since the very first one on NES was released, I have to say my number one reason for liking the Prime series so much is because of this: even if it is 3D, it still FEELS like a Metroid game...The atmosphere, music, weapons, enemies...even the areas that seem like dead ends but have some small little hidey hole or passage to find are intact. Prime is Metroid, through and through.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (3, Informative)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699889)

Based on you saying this, I can only assume you haven't played either game for more than 5 minutes...

Pfft, as if you could play Metroid for any length of time and call the motion controls "tacked on". They're integral, and they're better than anything any previous console controller could produce.

5 minutes is how long it took before I swore off ever playing an FPS with dual analog ever again. I bet Bioshock for the PC is fun, but damned if I want to play the Xbox version.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (1)

Pojut (1027544) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700127)

While an analog stick will NEVER be a replacement for a keyboard/mouse combo, all it takes is a little bit of use...after playing through only a couple of FPS with a controller, I found that I got used to it to the point where I feel comfortable picking up a controller and just playing. Granted, as I said, there really is no replacement for a keyboard and mouse, but it doesn't take long to get used to using the controller.

In some ways, I prefer the controller for games like Rainbow Six: Vegas and Bioshock...even with as well as I type and with how long I have played games on the PC, I sitll find it more conveinent to have all the controls right at my fingertips...I don't have to worry about having my hand in the wrong position and hitting a key I don't mean to hit. Bioshock's 360 controls are very well laid out, and it takes only a couple minutes for the scheme to feel entirely natural.

Blasphemy, some might say...but it's simply a different type of Micro []'s just a different skillset that is required. Not to mention if you play FPS on a console, you will find (or at least I did) that my keyboard/mouse accuracy actually increased since I got used to something that wasn't quite as accurate.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 6 years ago | (#20702019)

Granted, as I said, there really is no replacement for a keyboard and mouse, but it doesn't take long to get used to using the controller.

It's not a matter of "used to"; I've logged many many hours of console FPS play. Yet it has always been and will always be an inferior input scheme compared to keyboard and mouse. I simply accepted this as the cost of playing an FPS on a console.

Now that I've played Metroid Prime 3, I no longer consider it acceptable. Now even on a console I can have fast, accurate aiming. If only you could turn as quickly as with a mouse, the wiimote would be the perfect input device for FPS. As is, it's only so awesome that I never want to touch dual analog FPS controls again. My Time Splitters 2 GC disk will miss me. :P

I don't have to worry about having my hand in the wrong position and hitting a key I don't mean to hit.

Yes, the keyboard is in many ways the weaker half of the mouse/keyboard pair. It does allow you to fit all the necessary functions without resorting to things like the L3/R3 buttons on the Sony controller, but has the problem of having roughly 80 unnecessary keys.

This is one of the beauties of the wii, by the way. The analog stick is a great method for moving your character, since you really only need two speeds anyway (full run, and slow cautious), you never need to stop on a particular pixel, and your character is rarely supposed to be so fast that they can run back and forth across a room in a second. Whereas aiming is something where you're inherently supposed to be able to whip the barrel of your gun around to shoot people on opposite ends of a room, since you're not really moving yourself you're just moving the angle of the gun. Analog sticks turn this into basically the same thing as moving your character. Analog thumbsticks suck for aiming, even if you're as familiar with them as it is possible to be. So the wii gives you the best of both: The nunchuck has the analog stick for moving your character, and the wiimote gives you fast and precise aiming that no thumbstick can.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (1)

xenocide2 (231786) | more than 6 years ago | (#20701689)

You know, someone has to say it: The Prime 3 controls are not perfect. They're somewhere between okay and not any better that the GC controls. Locking on for circle strafing is great, but it also re-centers the screen on the object of interest, without your cursor being re-aimed. So in a fast battle, you point at the man badguy, lock on to dodge and fight more effectively, but your aim is way off. There's a setting to fix this so that when you lock on, you're also aiming at the opponent. It's not very good at motion prediction though.

More importantly, the lack of turbo fire on the wiimote kills your thumb in ways NESmaniacs never imagined.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (1, Flamebait)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 6 years ago | (#20701979)

You realize, of course, that your "way off" aim is because you're aiming somewhere else, right? Don't blame the controls for the fact that you wanted to play the game on Pussy and have it do all the killing for you.

Apologies for being harsh - my serious comment is as such - you already knew you could turn that off. Did you think that having the game actually do all your aiming for you would make it more fun? Also, you can switch the firing control to the trigger (and I don't get why that wasn't default) which makes it a hell of a lot nicer. I've fired something like 100,000 shots across two games in the last week and I'm not having any trigger finger issues.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#20721557)

Well, to be honest, for an adventure game that's not a pure trigger-happy FPS, the control scheme for Prime 1 was close to perfect. Granted, in a mulitplayer combat situation, most FPS fans would find it extremely limiting, but for what's required of the Metroid series, the GC controls are practically superior to a keyboard/mouse control scheme.

Now, however I tend to feel about Corruption trying to become more like a traditional FPS (which bothers me), I'll say that the control scheme was VERY GOOD in that regard. The lock-on may have actually been completely unneccssary. I think that maybe circle-strafe without lock-on would have been the best method, but besides that it was close to perfect. The ONLY gripe I had is that the crosshairs needed to be much more visible. Unlike traditional FPSs, with the Wiimote, the crosshair is not always in the center of the screen, which requires them to be a bit more blatently visible than in other games. First and foremoet, they should never be obsucrred by bloom-lighighting or gunblast effects (which they were in Corruption), they should always sit on a layer above everything else, they should be completely opaque, and possibly even have an outline of another color for added visibility. I can't count the number of times I went "okay, where are my crosshairs again?"

But that aside: Corruption did have the best control scheme of any FPS on a console. I really can't argue against that. Sure, it wasn't "perfect" but it was pretty damn close when compared to Halo, Bioshock, or other duel-analog control setups.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (1)

revlayle (964221) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699913)

I agree... as a fan of Super Metroid (and used to speed run is regularly), I was VERY skeptical of Prime. While it is NOT the same, the feel is certainly Metroid and was loads of fun to play. Also, kudos to Retro for not giving in to excessive Samus eye-candy at the very end (of the first game anyways), it was totally tasteful and believeable and just right.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (1)

GroeFaZ (850443) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700321)

What I liked most about Bioshock was how it took those many ideas from all the stellar titles in the action genre: the implant system from Deus Ex (plasmid system), the Gravity Gun from HL2 (Telekinesis plasmid), sneaking and hacking from various "Thief" descendants, and, my personal favourite, the camera from Beyond Good and Evil, complete with the exact same piano notes played when taking a good picture. Despite those many games that served as inspiration, all those elements combine seamlessly and are held together by a narration style that never distracts from or interrupts the game flow. Outstanding voice actors conveying an interesting background story, nice graphics, only very few, minor bugs (that I have experienced, anyway), moral choices that actually matter and a very good balance of suspense and open action. I could go on. It's not a revolutionary game as the usual hype wants it to be, but evolutionary it's darn close to being the perfect shooter of our time.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20702045)

What I liked most about Bioshock was how it took those many ideas from all the stellar titles in the action genre: the implant system from Deus Ex (plasmid system), the Gravity Gun from HL2 (Telekinesis plasmid), sneaking and hacking from various "Thief" descendants, and, my personal favourite, the camera from Beyond Good and Evil, complete with the exact same piano notes played when taking a good picture. Despite those many games that served as inspiration, all those elements combine seamlessly and are held together by a narration style that never distracts from or interrupts the game flow. Outstanding voice actors conveying an interesting background story, nice graphics, only very few, minor bugs (that I have experienced, anyway), moral choices that actually matter and a very good balance of suspense and open action. I could go on. It's not a revolutionary game as the usual hype wants it to be, but evolutionary it's darn close to being the perfect shooter of our time.
Yes they took all this, by using the Time machine (STOLEN from Back to the Future) and taking all of these ideas, implementing them in System Shock and System Shock 2 BEFORE any of those games were made! I'm glad you're here to inform all of us exactly how BioShock has taken all these from thin air.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (1)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 6 years ago | (#20709357)

Is Bioshock a continuation/spinoff of the System Shock series?!

If so, I may have to pick it up and go to my brother's to hog his 360 for awhile...

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (1)

LKM (227954) | more than 6 years ago | (#20726881)

It's in large parts the same team and basically a kind of spiritual sequel, just without the rights to the actual name.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (1)

ByteSlicer (735276) | more than 6 years ago | (#20701177)

[...] and the graphics are quite pretty.
While true that the rendering quality has increased significantly in the last few years, one thing that really annoys me in games like Bioshock (and others, eg. Doom3) is that there are human-like characters in it that look identical. I mean, same face, clothes, wounds, stains. That really breaks the realism for me.

Re:Marketing Hype Vs Waggle (1)

Khaed (544779) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700083)

I never played either System Shock game, but I'm currently on my second time through BioShock.

I like it a lot. The atmosphere, the story itself, it all just sort of rolls together in a really fun game. I'm not an FPS fan, and BioShock doesn't come off as a typical FPS.

What other high quality games are you talking about?

Lair, Heavenly Sword? ;)

Bioshock (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20699705)

Bioshock. That is all.

Stop The Hurting (1)

roadkill_cr (1155149) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699817)

Guys... why do we need to hate games. Why not just play and love both.

Memorable openings (3, Interesting)

Dr. Stavros (808432) | more than 6 years ago | (#20699887)

Indeed, a memorable opening is important.

Unfortunately, what was most memorable to me about the opening of BioShock was that, as soon as you gain control of the player, the water splashing up in your face as you swim in the sea leaves drips on the screen, as if it were hitting the glass lens of a camera. There's my sense of immersion destroyed in the first few seconds!

In fact, "Something splashing on the lens, such as water or mud" is listed on Wikipedia's page on breaking the fourth wall [] as a "technical limitation" that can remind the viewer that what they are seeing is [a film, and] not real life!

Otherwise, the opening was quite good :)

Re:Memorable openings (1)

MenTaLguY (5483) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700183)

Interestingly, the Metroid Prime games do this too -- but there it doesn't constitute a fourth wall violation since you (Samus) are supposed to be wearing a helmet with a visor.

Re:Memorable openings (1)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 6 years ago | (#20708363)

In MP2 (and possibly the first, I don't remember) you could actually see Samus' face reflected in the visor when there was an explosion nearby. In MP3 its even better. Whenever the visor darkens in scan mode, you can see her face and her eyes move to follow the scanning reticle.

It breaks the fourth wall in that I know I'm not a blue-eyed anime chick, but it's a sweet effect nonetheless. :)

Re:Memorable openings (5, Funny)

sanjacguy (908392) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700983)

Unfortunately, what was most memorable to me about the opening of BioShock was that, as soon as you gain control of the player, the water splashing up in your face as you swim in the sea leaves drips on the screen, as if it were hitting the glass lens of a camera. There's my sense of immersion destroyed in the first few seconds!
Of course, those of us with glasses find this completely immersive. :)

Re:Memorable openings (1)

straponego (521991) | more than 6 years ago | (#20711087)

Yeah, that annoyed me too. It's like when they add lens flare to medieval/fantasy games. Introducing errors that contradict the story just because... hey, the engine supports it! George Lucas syndrome.

Re:Memorable openings (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20705755)

So, are you saying that if you left your eyes open as you splashed around in water, you would not see water splashing in your eyes? Never played BioShock, so I can't comment on how well it was done, but they should certainly leave some level of splashing on the "eyes".
On a similar note, something that I really enjoy about Metroid Prime is that when a bright flash of light (such as going close to a wall and firing your gun) shows a reflection of Samus in the visor of the suit - really adds to the feeling of actually BEING an alien woman in a space suit. *sigh* we can dream can't we?

Re:Memorable openings (1)

Txiasaeia (581598) | more than 6 years ago | (#20707611)

I don't know how many people haven't played the game yet, so FAIR WARNING FOR SPOILERS:

The fact that you are reminded that you're playing a game in the first few seconds of playing makes perfect sense, given the "Would you kindly" scene with Ryan (think about the connexions between what we do when we play a game and what Ryan does). Bioshock is more than a game; it's a philosophical discussion on what it means to play games. What I'm trying to say is that it might break immersion at the beginning, but when you reach the climax, it all fits, beginning to end.

I still play both styles (3, Interesting)

IceCreamGuy (904648) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700055)

I have all my old consoles still, and I play them about 25% of the time I'd say, but only a select few games that I just absolutely love playing, like Megaman 2, Metroid, LoZ, Lolo, and a couple others. There's something so attractive and moving about the simplicity of them visually, combined with the superb level design that just touches me in an extremely meaningful way. The music is also something that I love, it's so pure, no overtones and no human elements to make it imperfect, simple sounds juxtaposed against extremely complex musical arrangements; I actually ripped all my favorite NES music into .wav and listen to it in my car on a regular basis (Maniac Mansion gets me pumped when I'm driving). So the original 2D has this dichotomy of simplicity and complexity that makes it extremely unique and highly enjoyable, but the 3D games like Metroid Prime and Ocarina of Time just have so much depth to both the gameplay and the visuals that they just work for me. Obviously it's not the same type of enjoyment as the old ones, but that's why I keep them around. The 3D ones, I feel, have the same attention to detail and reflect just as much effort as the 2Ds, the only difference is that the incredible effort put into them can be directed into more areas of design and with greater depth than before. It's like eating a meal from the best chef in the world made from only 6 ingredients as opposed to a meal made by the best chef in the world with 20 ingredients; they'll both be the best meals you've ever had, but of course they'll be different.

Re:I still play both styles (1)

Akaihiryuu (786040) | more than 6 years ago | (#20701619)

I play both too. I still have my Super Metroid cartridge, but I haven't played it in awhile since I sold my SNES before I moved (no point in keeping it for just one game that I knew was coming to VC anyway). I got the VC download of Super Metroid 3 days before MP3 came out, and I ended up playing the two games together pretty much (take a break from one by playing the other...and I took a 2-week break from WOW to finish MP3). SM and MP3 are both fantastic games...they are very similar and yet very different at the same time. I really don't think I would say that one is "better" than the other, they are just different. Sure, SM is more nostalgic, but in 13 years MP3 will probably be nostalgic too. Heck, MP1 is getting a bit nostalgic to play now that it's been years ago and I've played 2 and 3. If you enjoyed a game when it came out, the older it gets, the more nostalgic it's going to feel to you. You tend to view old games that you enjoyed in the past through rose colored glasses. Sure, some games (like Super Metroid) stand the test of time, but I don't think 2D or 3D are "better" than the other...only different. There was a lot of crap in the 2D days too, but noone remembers the crap, only the few gems that stood out. The whole 2D vs. 3D argument is just another variation on the whole "kids these days...back in MY day" argument that's been going on for generations. Things change, things evolve. There are fantastic 2D games and crap 2D games, fantastic 3D games and crap 3D games. All that matters is that the game is fun to play. You can't expect a 3D iteration of a formerly 2D series to play exactly like the 2D one...besides, would you want to play the exact same game again? Not that I'd be against a "modern" 2D game in the Metroid series...imagine what could be done in a 2D game with the power of modern consoles. I had every bit as much fun with Metroid Prime 3 as I did with Super Metroid. No they aren't exactly the same, but they are both fun. Super Metroid is actually a lot more frustrating in places, there are powerups that you can see but are damn near impossible to get. The one that stands out in my mind is in that vertical room in Norfair where all the floors are collapsable, and the powerup is behind a shootable block on the left. ARRRRGH!

It's been posted before, but it deserves attention (3, Interesting)

Glytch (4881) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700481)

A Bioshock review. []

I love the outcome... (1)

SetupWeasel (54062) | more than 6 years ago | (#20700975)

when two 'hardcore' gamers get into the same room. Mario, Metroid, and Zelda are different games in 3D. It is unfair to judge a 3D game by the merits of the mechanics of a 2D predecessor. The fact that all three franchises have become critical and financial successes after the switch to 3D suggests that for any great thing that was lost, other things were added.

Too many gaming enthusiasts are ridiculously conservative when it comes to things they love. I can't tell you how many threads I have read angry at changes in X or Y franchises that infuriate the enthusiasts but make the games more enjoyable for others. Get over it, things change. If you enjoy Super Metroid more than Metroid Prime, shut the fuck up and play Super Metroid. Nothing is stopping you. I wished Twilight Princess was more like the Wind Waker, so I played the Wind Waker again. Maybe Wind Waker 2 would have been too much like the first if they had made it.

I, for one, like to be surprised. If there is no change, I get bored. Sure, this means I open myself to surprises I don't like, but it is better than getting the same thing over and over. I wish some would hire video game journalists that feel the same as I do, so I could start to trust reviews.

This argument about Metroid where one person says 3D isn't good because of what it has lost and the other says it is good because it hasn't lost certain things is moronic. What about what it has gained? Why did I, owner of Metroid in 1987, never complete a Metroid game until Metroid Prime? They don't care or they are unable to understand.

Re:I love the outcome... (1)

sesshomaru (173381) | more than 6 years ago | (#20707519)

Hmm... Wow!

That's incredibly insulting. All the "3-D" Metroid games I've played have been boring (I got 1 and 2 as gifts). B-o-r-i-n-g. However, unlike you, I don't begrudge other gamers their enjoyment of the spinoff Metroid series "Metroid Prime." Live and let live, I'd normally say. (After all, I enjoy Metroid Prime Pinball, a spinoff of a spinoff.)

Unfortunately, the Metroid Prime series is killing off the good Metroid games, from my perspective. You never liked Metroid, but you like the spinoff so you don't care, and you feel that it makes you right. Well, bully for you (pun intended).

I wouldn't care if they were still making decent Metroid games. After all, if I want to play a First Person Shooter, I'd rather play something good (i.e. for me, not Metroid Prime). I could care less about "financial success" of Metroid Prime, considering that Gamecube trailed far behind Playstation 2 shows that it wasn't exactly a system selling game if you want to get into arguments about it.

Which I don't. Why tell me I have to like something that I don't like? Oh, right, because you don't like platformers.

But it's stupid to call fans of the Metroid platformer series "conservative," they just like platformers. Heck, I even like non-boring First Person Adventure games like System Shock II. (However, I'd be irritated if that's all there was.) You can't force your taste on me, try as you might, any more than Jack Thompson (your idol?) can.

Oh, I assume you are not getting Phantom Hourglass which is more like Wind Waker, eh? After all, there's no novelty there.

Re:I love the outcome... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20708207)

I don't think that anyone with an Inuyasha character for a username has the right to call anything boring.

Re:I love the outcome... (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#20721365)

wow, dude, such anger! I happen to agree with him, and I love Super Metroid. I place Prime 1 and Super Metroid at the top of the list. I think the 3D games are VERY faithful to the original series in all but the action-element in the gameplay... of which I think is not so much a defining feature of the series. Not all the 2D games are great, and not all the 3D games are great. It's all pretty mixed from "good" to "meh".

Super Metroid and Zero Mission are amazing
Metroid II and Fusion are "pretty good" though they go against some of the series' core stylistic elements
Metroid I was good for its time, but is no fun to play today accept for nostolgic value

Prime is amazing
Corruption is very good
Echos is alright
Hunters is crap

So I don't think you're viewpoint really an all-encompassing one, I don't think a lot of people agree with you here, that there's some kind of objective reason why the 3D series is inferior. Many believe, as I do, that there's nothing particularly better about one side of the series than the other, they both have their ups and downs. I happen to think that Prime edges out Super Metroid by a hair... but that they're both so great that it's bearily worth noting. If I were to break things down, I think that Super Metroid has the greatest sound design of any game ever made, but Prime edges it out, though slightly, on atmospheric elements, and they're about tied everywhere else. The games are very comparible, IMO, unlike what you suggest. I played Super Metroid quite a bit back in the day, and then I replayed it a few times before I got Prime... that didn't stop me from loving both games equally.

Re:I love the outcome... (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#20721283)

I agree with you except for Zelda. I think 3D Zelda and 2D Zelda are essentially fairly similar, since the game itself doesn't revolve so much around control mechanics. The game is essentially a puzzle game with fighting thrown in the mix. This means that although the perspective has changed, the way in which you methodically play through the game has not. Case-in-point, I don't think that Phantom Hourglass, which is fundimentally a 2D game, is going to feel or play all that differently from Windwaker

Also, I think that top-view games have a much easier time transitioning to 3D, since 3 dimension are traditionally implied by 2D top-view games. If you think about it, the way you control a 3rd person 3D game and a top-view 2D game are fairly similar. Top-view games usually have a "height" element in them, repesented by various vissual tricks, like stairs the seem to run at an angle, and shadows that denote depth. Side-view games, however, with very few acceptions (Mairo 3, going behind the scenery) have no depth element at all, and the player must accecpt the game world as a 2D plane.

Here's my take on the 3 series in question:

Zelda - 3D games basically are able to carry over everything that made the 2D games what they were, and add to it. Almost to the point of not NEEDING to continue the 2D series. Link to the Past could be redone in 3D and wouldn't stand to lose anything but nostolgia, which I believe to be fairly irrelivant when talking about these issues.

Metroid - 3D games were able to carry over a part of what made the series. The series has basically 3 major componants: action-based gameplay, navigational problem solving, and a diffinitive style. The navigation and style carried over perfectly (particularly in Prime 1), yet the action-based gameplay had to be completely redone from the ground up. My take is that the Prime series is every bit as good as its 2D counterpart, but that it does not replace it in the same way that Zelda's replaced it. 2D games in the Metroid series are still very welcome.

Mario - I think this series made the least-successful transition. As good as Mario 64 is, very few believe it to be superior to Mario 3 or Mario World, in the same way that Ocarina of Time and Metroid Prime have become pennultimate games in their series. Mario is a pure platformer (originally). It's style is noticable, but most would agree that the meat of the series is in its action/platformer elements. The transition from 2D Sideview to 3D third-person radically altered the platformer element, changing the fundimentals of what makes up the Mario series. Mario 64 is esentially, for the most part, a completely new series based on stylistic elements of another series.

The overall feeling I get is that Zelda's transition was natural, as if the series was meant to, from the beginning, be in 3D, but they had to wait for the technology to catch up. The same with Final Fantasy (being another top-view series). Metroid sat out for a while, and then Nintendo decided to resurrect the franchise by creating a game very faithful to some of the core stylistic elements of the series, but with altered gameplay. Mario simply made the transition because it was the trend of the time, not so much out of neccessity or that it would actually better the series.

Commentary requires breadth (1)

tooler (36824) | more than 6 years ago | (#20701379)

Have these two "game journalism luminaries" played anything beyond a few console hits? I had to stop reading midway through the third article because they couldn't stop talking about Metal Gear Solid.

These articles seriously deserve some commentary from the designers to make them complete. I'd love to hear Ken Levine's response, although he'd probably rather see gamers work these things out on their own.

Re:Commentary requires breadth (1)

xenocide2 (231786) | more than 6 years ago | (#20701545)

Near the end it becomes clear that one of them was relatively new, and never played Metal Gear before the 2d-3d transition. I"m not sure whether they're for or against MGS in 3d. Ghost Babel was a fantastic game that brought the most interesting parts from the 3d back to 2d, so I don't think it's clear-cut. But I think partly when you write for MTV maybe you don't want to use obscure references when a reference your entire audience would understand exists.

My 2 cents (1)

renegadesx (977007) | more than 6 years ago | (#20722803)

Ive yet to play either but both are games that I am looking foward too. Definatally when I get my new video card, BioShock is top of the list. Its one of those games that seem to stand out in a world flooded with the same stuff. It looks sweet, looks like it handles sweet and if it has stratergy other than running and gunning, it's a good thing. I quite liked the previous Metroid Prime games. The first and second Primes are still to this day my fave 1st person expereince of this decade, I felt it stayed true to the series. Throw in a control scheme that I feel was made for FPS's I cant wait for Corrupion (In australia we have to wait till November). Hunters is fun online but no Counter Strike and I am very disapointed about lack of online multiplayer as Hunters showed it could be done. I personally have not been impressed with what Ive seen with Halo 3, I could be supprised with the final version but I am not expecting much. So far it looks like BioShock and Corruption are worthy contenders for GOTY while Halo 3 will make it on fame alone. Nobody forget we got plenty of AAA titles on the way: Assassins Creed, MSG4, CoD4, Crysis, DMC4, RE5, SSBB
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