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Novell Linux Business Spikes Since Microsoft Deal

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the there's-a-linux-that-works-with-windows-now dept.

Linux Business 147

StonyandCher writes "Novell's divisive deal with Microsoft has apparently resulted in some financial success for the company. PC World is now reporting that the company's Linux business has risen about 250% since the deal was announced last November. From the article: '[Novell director of marketing Justin Steinman] said part of its growth was directly related to the Microsoft deal, adding that Novell has billed more than US$100 million in business through its Microsoft relationship. He added that the growth was also due to the halo effect of the arrangement. "When we're out there competing with Red Hat, [our salespeople] are saying, 'Our Linux is recommended by Microsoft,' and customers that already have a Windows investment say it seems to make sense to pick the Linux that works with Windows."'"

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Maybe there are other reasons (2, Insightful)

LiquidCoooled (634315) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767463)

It could be people are moving their business from SCO to Novell ;)
I don't know how much novell charges for their Linux but its got to be less than $650 per seat.

Amazing savior (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20768429)

I'll bet Novell would have never imagined they would owe any success they have to Microsoft.

Kind of like Apple, really: had SteveJob not received a hot cash injection from Gates, Apple would be just another third rate PC manufacturer right now. It's kind of funny how it took the supposed Microsoft monopoly to save the Apple monopoly.

Marketing (3, Insightful)

porkThreeWays (895269) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767509)

and customers that already have a Windows investment say it seems to make sense to pick the Linux that works with Windows
Which is pure marketing because all the major distributions work equally well (or not well) with Windows. What I guess people still don't get is you pay for a support contract, not the distribution. All the major distributions are all basically of the same quality and use almost the exact same software. Maaaaaaybe a few configuration tools are different, but they are configuring the same software so it doesn't matter.

Re:Marketing (0, Troll)

DogDude (805747) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767559)

All the major distributions are all basically of the same quality and use almost the exact same software.

Really? That's news to me! So then Red Hat Enterprise Edition is the same as Linspire? Gentoo and Ubuntu are the same? SUSE and Fedora? Wow. Well, what's the point of having lots of different groups of people make their own distributions, then?

Re:Marketing (1, Informative)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767737)

Well, what's the point of having lots of different groups of people make their own distributions, then?
The freedom to do so.

HTH.
 

Re:Marketing (4, Insightful)

porkThreeWays (895269) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767751)

I never said they were the same, I said they all use basically the same software and major distributions are all of very high quality. I wouldn't exactly call Linspire or Gentoo "major" distros, but RHEL/Fedora, Suse, Ubuntu/Debian, are all very very very similar. I've been working with Linux and Unix in general for over 10 years and once you know what's under the hood, you realize distro wars are silly because they are all basically the same. What differs are high level configuration tools and support contracts. Regarding Windows interoperability, do you think MS has hacked together some super compatible version of Samba for Novell that Red Hat or Ubuntu don't have access to?

Re:Marketing (1)

IANAAC (692242) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767975)

I've been working with Linux and Unix in general for over 10 years and once you know what's under the hood, you realize distro wars are silly because they are all basically the same.

You must not have had to install and maintain any sort of enterprise software (Oracle and Domino come to mind) on different distributions, or you would know that different distributions are indeed different. Library naming conventions and filesystem layout are two reasons that you only see certain distributions supported for enterprise applications.

Re:Marketing (2, Insightful)

aichpvee (631243) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768203)

What does any of this have to do with "working with windows?"

Re:Marketing (2, Interesting)

Etyenne (4915) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768887)

File system layout have been standardized in the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard and, AFAIK, all Big Three (Red Hat, Novell, Ubuntu) have been adhering to it pretty strictly. Anyway, third-party commercial applications should go in /opt and not mess around with the rest of the system, period.

Different distros ship different version of libraries, yes. But naming convention for libraries differ from distro to distro ? I do not understand what you talk about here.

And, yes, I have installed "enterprise" software, and their installer have been pretty consistently an awful hack slapped together as an afterthought by the vendor. And that include the horrible Oracle Java wizard. So, the blame lie squarely on the vendors as far as the crappiness of their installer is concerned if you ask me.

Re:Marketing (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 6 years ago | (#20771383)

> Library naming conventions and filesystem layout are two reasons that you only see
> certain distributions supported for enterprise applications.

NONE of that matters due to how "Unix in general" works.

Software that comes with 7 figure support contracts is "certified" on only
a few versions of a few products due to simplifying the support process. It's
a convenience for both sides and does not mean that you can't run Oracle 10g
RAC on Ubuntu.

Once you disable the installer's "is this RHEL or SLES" check, it does quite
well actually.

Re:Marketing (1)

neurovish (315867) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768627)

Try SAN booting SLES and RHEL, then come back and say that they are the same.

Re:Marketing (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 6 years ago | (#20771415)

What? They don't use the same qlogic drivers? They don't use the same dm multipath if you haven't bought EMC's commercial equivalent?

Re:Marketing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20768801)

I wouldn't exactly call Linspire or Gentoo "major" distros

Actually, I'm always surprised by the number of Gentoo users I've met in the wild. It seems that any time I meet some random person who turns out to be a Linux user, they run Gentoo.

Must be a lot of masochists out there ;-)

Re:Marketing (1)

guruevi (827432) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767801)

Yes, they're all the same. They're all POSIX compliant, most run on the x86 architecture (both 32-bit and 64-bit) and they have a similar kernel, similar hardware support etc.

The few reason you pick is because: useability out-of-the-box (I can't imagine someone new to Linux using Linux From Scratch or Gentoo), package management (do you like emerge, apt-get or rpm/yum?), available packages from vendor and stability/security thereof (one of the reasons people use Debian or Red Hat for servers and Ubuntu for Desktops)

But technically, taking general management of the boxes aside, most packages you can compile on any of those distributions and with some prerequisites (Processor architecture, Major library versions, Major kernel versions) you should be able to compile your binary and run it on any of those machines. Scripts and interpreted languages are even better since most of the time you don't even have to think about those prerequisites.

Re:Marketing (3, Funny)

ta bu shi da yu (687699) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768211)

Alternatively, it appears, you choose Novell's distro because "it seems to make sense to pick the Linux that works with Windows". Good to see CIOs are making rational business decisions.

Re:Marketing (1)

trolltalk.com (1108067) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768899)

"> Alternatively, it appears, you choose Novell's distro because "it seems to make sense to pick the Linux that works with Windows". Good to see CIOs are making rational business decisions."

Since when is the computer world run based on rational decisions? If it were, we'd have all been using motorola cpus with flat memory spaces, not intel segmented-architecture, people would have realized that Windows 3.0 was, for the longest time, just vaporware, nobody would have bought Windows ME, or Microsoft Office upgrades when there's OpenOffice or StarOffice, or Vista ...

... hmmm ... the "or Vista" bit ... maybe the market is becoming rational after all ... people aren't buying Vista.

Re:Marketing (1)

jav1231 (539129) | more than 6 years ago | (#20770311)

Exactly. Microsoft continues to be the OS for the ignorant. I can simply pick Microsoft "because" and know I've made a choice that a lot of other people have made. Ultimately, I can rely on the ignorance of everyone else and know I'm risking very little. My ROI may not be as good as with another Linux but I, nor anyone else in my company with a voice, will likely ever know it. Hope these lemmings can swim.

Re:Marketing (1)

jollyreaper (513215) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767909)

Really? That's news to me! So then Red Hat Enterprise Edition is the same as Linspire? Gentoo and Ubuntu are the same? SUSE and Fedora? Wow. Well, what's the point of having lots of different groups of people make their own distributions, then?
It's a conspiracy amongst CD manufacturers! It's too late for me but you, you still might have a chance! Run, and tell the world! *GASP!* [dies]

Re:Marketing (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 6 years ago | (#20771321)

Different distributors can customize the available options to suit a particular purpose.

Different distributors can provide different levels of configuration control, testing and validation.

Different distributors can add different value added options (like commercial X or GL).

Different distributors can provide paid support in a manner similar to Oracle, Sun or IBM.

Choices enable customer driven competition.

Debian is used differently than RHEL than Ubuntu than Damn Small.

Re:Marketing (1)

dumb_jedi (955432) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767595)

Which in turns shows how knowledgeable people in decision positions are. I bet some guy will buy Suse thinking it's a cheaper version of Windows.

Re:Marketing (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20768561)

Which in turns shows how knowledgeable people in decision positions are. I bet some guy will buy Suse thinking it's a cheaper version of Windows.
Well, they did mutilate the Gnome desktop to look like Windows... Applcations/Places/Settings in the same place as the start menu, "quick launch" in the same place, taskbar in the same place, notification area in the same place, clock in the same place, "Computer" icon on desktop, urine-colored theme, etc.

When I tried 10.1 it felt like a very slow, cheap knockoff of Windows 2000. Unlike Ubuntu, which despite the baby poop color scheme comes off as a polished* desktop that's not a ripoff of something else.

* Needs more graphical configuration tools. It's still behind Fedora in that, while Mandriva and SUSE are far beyond any thing else in this area (imho, both surpass Windows in this area as well).

Re:Marketing (1)

psbrogna (611644) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767809)

"all the major distributions work equally well" Your statement above conflicts with what my personal experience has been (which has primarily been limited to many versions of Suse, Redhat, Centos, Yellowdog &Slackware). What I think you're trying to say is that all the major distributions CAN work the same way. As far as what they do out of the box though, ie. without reading how-to's and tweaking alien configuration files (alien that is if you're coming over from the Windows world), that is a different matter. It has been my experience that OpenSuse, out of the box, does work more seamlessly in a heterogeneous Linux/Windows environment.

Re:Marketing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20768139)

echo "what they do out of the box though, ie. without reading how-to's and tweaking alien configuration files (alien that is if you're coming over from the Windows world)"|sed -e 's/Windows world/Dark Side/'

There, fixed that for ya.

Re:Marketing (1)

RobertLTux (260313) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767843)

this is also marketing but Novell does have that deal where they get access to certain bits of MS code
  (and supposedly MS coders are told not to do some stuff that will break the shared code)
If I had a business that was part MS part Linux I would have a SLED farm just to make sure i could get
THE CODE THAT THE EU COMMISSION SAID I COULD GET

Re:Marketing (1)

certain death (947081) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768085)

Actually, Novell works better with windows. I currently manage an entire AD structure with tools on SuSE Linux (Novell version). Desktop OS cost is $50 US, but only if you want the support and some of the tools that are offered with the paid version. I like it!!

Re:Marketing (5, Informative)

SpiritGod21 (884402) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768311)

This is blatantly incorrect. I can connect SuSE to our Active Directory during installation through a GUI quite easily, or after installation at any time through the YaST administrative utility. In a Microsoft environment, SuSE makes things easy.

Ubuntu, on the other hand, requires roughly 3 hours of hacking and coding. Canonical has no interest whatsoever in making it play nice with Windows beyond implementing and supporting SMB.

Re:Marketing (2, Insightful)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769963)

Ubuntu, on the other hand, requires roughly 3 hours of hacking and coding. Canonical has no interest whatsoever in making it play nice with Windows beyond implementing and supporting SMB.

Probably because Ubuntu and SuSE are aiming for two entirely different markets? (home desktop users v. enterprise business)?

Sort of like the reason why I wouldn't expect a typical Dell desktop to come with multiple hot-swap drive bays, two built-in NICs, or a RAID controller, nor would I expect a Dell server to come with a pair of GeForce 8800's in SLI configuration, y'know?

/P

Re:Marketing (1)

SpiritGod21 (884402) | more than 6 years ago | (#20770165)

Exactly, which is why it's silly for the parent to write "Which is pure marketing because all the major distributions work equally well (or not well) with Windows." Ubuntu and SuSE do not work equally well with corporate Windows, particularly in respect to Microsoft Active Directory et. al.

Was just trying to point out that different distros, developed for different markets, do not in fact work equally well (or not well). They are not all created equally in respects to Windows integration.

Novell is more than just Linux (1, Interesting)

LinuxDon (925232) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769215)

Please remember that Novell offers much more than just the basic Linux stuff.
It offers a Novell client for windows, eDirectory, ZENworks, iFolder, iPrint, Groupwise etc, etc.
These are products targeted at managing Windows (and linux) workstations and servers but through a Linux server.
Novell products integrate seamlessly with Windows and they even (implicitly) solve many of the typical windows problems for you.

SLES on itself, however, does not offer a Windows advantage when compared to other distro's. It is the commercial closed source software that Novell offers that makes the advantage.

RedHat does not offer such services for Windows.
(Please note that I am just a Novell Open Workgroup Suite customer. http://www.novell.com/products/openworkgroupsuite/ [novell.com] )

Nope, Suse does things smarter. (1)

duffbeer703 (177751) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769305)

I totally disagree. Novell does some things that I am not happy about, but they have leveraged tools like Yast to make cumbersome configuration activities much easier and more reliable. Working with a Microsoft domain is a great example -- unless you have a heavily customized AD, Yast makes it VERY easy to become a member of the domain and authenticate users. Red Hat has the capability though Kerberos, LDAP and Samba, but it's harder to set it up.

In the long term, Red Hat is going to need a tool like Yast as Linux continues to penetrate into other areas of business networks.

Re:Marketing (1)

glug101 (911527) | more than 6 years ago | (#20771307)

1.

Which is pure marketing because all the major distributions work equally well (or not well) with Windows.
Yes, I agree totally with this. Ubuntu (just to pick one) works beautifully with windows file formats and networking (or mac for that matter) with minimal configuration.
2.

All the major distributions are all basically of the same quality and use almost the exact same software. Maaaaaaybe a few configuration tools are different, but they are configuring the same software so it doesn't matter.
Not strictly true. Yes, most of the software is exactly the same with a few (freely available) patches applied to the taste of the distro. But the configuration software can make all the difference in the world. Imagine having to install a new software patch on 1,000 boxes. AFAIK there is no generic Linux program to do this. You might hand install on all 1,000 (not recommended). You might create an install script that installs the software automatically but likely needs to be customized and tested for each package. OR, you COULD use the happy global configuration utility that came with your chosen distro and designed to work cleanly.
I used to be somewhat familiar with Suse, and I think it has a program that can do global configuration of all, or a group of computers on your network. I really have no idea if RedHat does or does not (I would be surprised if they didn't). And I'm pretty sure Ubuntu doesn't have this application. Such global configuration tools could make a big difference when deciding between distros for a company.

This story sound familiar? (4, Funny)

sammy baby (14909) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767511)

"When we're out there competing with Red Hat, [our salespeople] are saying, 'Our Linux is recommended by Microsoft,' and customers that already have a Windows investment say it seems to make sense to pick the Linux that works with Windows."


Translation 1:

Wow! That "embrace" part was great, and this "extend" phase is fantastic! I wonder what's next?

Translation 2:

Wow! These guards are great - they gave me a delicious meal, and now they're taking me out to meet their "squad!" Wonder why they want me blindfolded?

More seriously: I haven't worked with Novell stuff since this deal was announced. Anyone have any insight as to how much easier it really is to integrate with Microsoft stuff?

Re:This story sound familiar? (1)

jimstapleton (999106) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767713)

Wow, talk about OT.

If you think MS has the power to E^3 Linux...

Well, I have this bridge in Kansas, it connects two mountains, and has a great ocean view. Just $1,000,000.00 CAN.
Send me the check/money order, the bridge will be in the mail after it clears.

Re:This story sound familiar? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20767965)

Hey that sounds gre... wait, did you say canadian? Why would you list a property in Kansas using Canadian funds? Something doesn't seem quite right here...

Re:This story sound familiar? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20768489)

It's okay. He just meant $1000000 in a "can". his caps lock must have been on. Just send the money. It's okay. Just go ahead and send the money.

Re:This story sound familiar? (1)

mhall119 (1035984) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768051)

Wow, talk about OT.
Really, you think so? If Novell is banking their business on selling their Microsoft relationship, what do you think is going to happen to that business when Microsoft backs out of their deal, and start publicly denouncing Suse's inability to remain compatible?

This really is classic Microsoft strategy, make your competitor's success dependent on your compliance to something (HTML, Java, CIFS, OS/2), then stop complying with it. Microsoft's market weight guarantees that customers will follow them, and not their competitor. If tomorrow Suse Linux stops working well in a Windows network, which do you think businesses are going to dump?

Re:This story sound familiar? (2, Interesting)

jimstapleton (999106) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768195)

what do you think is going to happen to that business when Microsoft backs out of their deal, and start publicly denouncing Suse's inability to remain compatible?


SUSE will loose market share, and may even go to the Linux-distro graveyard. But remember, while SUSE is Linux, Linux is not SUSE.

This really is classic Microsoft strategy, make your competitor's success dependent on your compliance to something (HTML, Java, CIFS, OS/2), then stop complying with it. Microsoft's market weight guarantees that customers will follow them, and not their competitor. If tomorrow Suse Linux stops working well in a Windows network, which do you think businesses are going to dump?


The situation is different here. Linux has a lot more loyalty than some of your examples. Linux will only lose the people who tried Linux because there was an MS approved variant, and those people wouldn't have come over without this anyway. Some of them might even stay.

If MS is trying an E^3 with this, they might as well try putting their guns to their collective feet, because, they aren't going to decrease the popularity of Linux below what it would have been without their intervention. They may raise it above that level however...

Re:This story sound familiar? (1)

mhall119 (1035984) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768477)

SUSE will loose market share, and may even go to the Linux-distro graveyard. But remember, while SUSE is Linux, Linux is not SUSE.
My post and, I suspect, the original post that started all of this, are talking about Suse, not Linux in general (since Linux in general hasn't signed a co-op agreement with Microsoft).

Linux has a lot more loyalty than some of your examples
True, but Suse really doesn't. Linux may have nothing to worry about, but Novell sure enough does.

If MS is trying an E^3 with this, they might as well try putting their guns to their collective feet, because, they aren't going to decrease the popularity of Linux below what it would have been without their intervention. They may raise it above that level however...
If Microsoft can kill off Novell, and Linspire and Xandros just for fun, I think they will be pleased with the result of their deal. Probably they would have liked to hook Red Hat as well to kill the top 2 commercial providers, but even Microsoft can't fool everyone.

Re:This story sound familiar? (1)

jimstapleton (999106) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768567)

I guess I don't see the big deal.

MS might hurt some companies making less than brilliant decisions. So what? It won't hurt Linux.

Re:This story sound familiar? (1)

mhall119 (1035984) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768701)

It never was a big deal, we're just mocking Novell for making "less than brilliant decisions".

Re:This story sound familiar? (1)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769659)

Microsoft beating down Suse at this stage? Sure, I think they could do that much in the manner you describe.

Question is, what does that really get you, if you're Microsoft?

It doesn't make Linux in general go away.

Even if we take as granted the idea that Microsoft is evil and focused on the utter destruction of all that is free, this isn't a smart way to do it. They're in a better position to influence the community and drive business their way by supporting Suse than by crushing it.

Re:This story sound familiar? (1)

mhall119 (1035984) | more than 6 years ago | (#20770489)

Question is, what does that really get you, if you're Microsoft?

It doesn't make Linux in general go away.
It will make a competitor go away. Not just an OS competitor either, just about everything Novell sells is in competition with something Microsoft sells. If Microsoft can get Novell to bet the bank on MS-backed Suse, then pull the plug, it would seriously undermine Novell's business strength, and getting business going again around another product will take years.

Even if we take as granted the idea that Microsoft is evil and focused on the utter destruction of all that is free, this isn't a smart way to do it. They're in a better position to influence the community and drive business their way by supporting Suse than by crushing it.
It is in angler's best interest to let the fish eat the bait, but only for a time. For now Microsoft is backing Suse, because it gets them the market position they want to be in, but eventually it will be more advantageous for Microsoft to pull the line and hook the fish.

Re:This story sound familiar? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20770267)

Maybe not tomorrow; maybe they'll wait 4 years until that deal is over, then MS can start sueing all Novell customers for "stealing their 235 patents". (Statute of limitations for patents was 6 years ISTR). Also by that time they probably hope the US DOJ has forgotten about the oversight on the anti-trust case, or maybe that Thomas O. Barnett [eweek.com] guy will be the next US attorney-general.

Re:This story sound familiar? (1)

sammy baby (14909) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769373)

Wow, talk about OT.

If you think MS has the power to E^3 Linux...


For the record: I don't.

But I absolutely think that Microsoft would like nothing better than to "control" the growth of Linux by partnering with a major Linux vendor. Let's say as a hypothetical that Novell managed to wrest a sizable majority of corporate/enterprise level business from Red Hat. Do you think that Microsoft would hesitate for a second to put a shiv in Novell's back if they thought it would remove a major competitor?

Re:This story sound familiar? (1)

flyingfsck (986395) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767721)

I think the Mandriva wizards for Samba and Active Directory integration are better than Novell's. However, the end result is the same - they both work and the both use Samba, Winbind and PAM.

Re:This story sound familiar? (1)

grasshoppa (657393) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768437)

Anyone have any insight as to how much easier it really is to integrate with Microsoft stuff?

Same crap as before, no change on the front lines. You still have a gazillion different management interfaces ( imanager, remote manager, consoleone ). You still have a hodgepodge of software that make up their flagship products ( zenworks, groupwise ). Novell still has a pretty good file server, but actually administrating the software is painful still.

Talk about a PR scam... (5, Insightful)

tgatliff (311583) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767529)

If this isnt a PR pushed document, I dont know what is.... Of course Novell's business increased simply due to the fact of M$ handing out vouchers to people which M$ then ends up paying for when they give it to someone. What they would like to give the impression is that this makes people feel safe, so they go this route instead of the unsafe route with RedHat. You will also notice that they did not point out the Redhat had an amazing quarter as well with them attributing it to botched Vista rollout.... Hm... I wonder why they felt compelled to release this press release now?? :-)

Re:Talk about a PR scam... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20767633)

Novell, Redhat; what does it matter so long as they aren't buying Vista.

Re:Talk about a PR scam... (4, Interesting)

arivanov (12034) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767667)

Nothing to do with botched Vista rollouts or MSFT vouchers.

Linux vendors best quarters are the quarters when the financial market looks plain ugly. As a result people presenting projects to CIOs have to start making "immediate savings" noises instead of the usual TCO noises to get budgets approved. As a result the Linux vendors get a jump in revenue.

Disclaimer: I very well knoe that Linux TCO is considerably less than MSFT (as most of Slashdot). I am not a CIO though :-)

Re:Talk about a PR scam... (1)

MagicBox (576175) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767793)

Put that tin-foil hat back on......they are reading your thoughts.....

Re:Talk about a PR scam... (1)

AmaDaden (794446) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768037)

So the question is how different would things be if there was no Novell and MS deal? Or better yet is this MS backed Novell growth a bad or a good thing for Linux? I get the feeling that it's a good thing in the long run. Getting people to switch to Linux is the hard part, switching to a different distro should be easy after that.

250% increase! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20767553)

They went from selling 2 to selling 7. Whoo!

Red Hat is also doing well (4, Informative)

sayfawa (1099071) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767599)

The Aussie PC World has a current article [idg.com.au] about Red Hat's profits which are also up heavily since last year.

So maybe Novell and Red Hat's recent success is independent of the MS deal.

Re:Red Hat is also doing well (1)

everphilski (877346) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767695)

64% vs. 243% ... slightly different orders of magnitude. Note both articles make different attributions to success: Novell to subscriptions and Red Hat to overseas expansion, particularly in Japan.

Re:Red Hat is also doing well (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20767903)

64% vs. 243% ... slightly different orders of magnitude.

Yeah, those darned less-than-a-third-of-an-order-of-magnitude-orders.

Re:Red Hat is also doing well (1)

everphilski (877346) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768123)

Yeah, those darned less-than-a-third-of-an-order-of-magnitude-orders.

Well, if you were to invest your dollar, would you want a 64% return ($0.64) or a 243% return ($2.43)?

Re:Red Hat is also doing well (1)

Per Abrahamsen (1397) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769851)

> Well, if you were to invest your dollar, would you want a 64% return ($0.64) or a 243% return
($2.43)?

I'd prefer an order of magnitude better ($6.40).

Re:Red Hat is also doing well (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20768425)

Keep in mind though that Red Hat is significantly larger than Novell. They do more Linux business in the first place, so a smaller percentage growth is more significant.

Re:Red Hat is also doing well (1)

everphilski (877346) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769309)

Keep in mind though that Red Hat is significantly larger than Novell. They do more Linux business in the first place, so a smaller percentage growth is more significant.

Not really. Percentages are percentages. Growth normalized to the size of the company. They may have had more business, but they had more to start with.

Also, note the wording in the article. They have netted $100M in new business, above and beyond what they were attaining before the deal (which granted wasn't all that hot).

Another indicator - go compare Novell and Red Hat from Nov 2nd of last year to today - Novell stock is up 30%, Red Hat 21%. Go compare novell and red hat for a 1 year period before that (they are in a dead heat). Or a 2 year period before that (Red Hat up 40%). Theres a definite momentum shift in Novell's direction.

It stands to reason. (1)

KGIII (973947) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767631)

They've had a huge financial gain from Microsoft's wallet that translated directly. Now not only do the numbers look good but they can easily point and say that the transaction resulted in greater numbers in the sales department. It is a "feel good" story to justify more than anything else. I'm still waiting for the man to step out from behind the curtain and admit that it is all a sham and then I can click my heels and say, "Home, home, home."

My post is recommended by the one that'll mod down (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20767635)

"[our salespeople] are saying, 'Our Linux is recommended by Microsoft,'"

Wow from salesman I've heard "this knife is made of adamantium" "This vacuum cleaner has 70 year warranty" but that one takes the cake.

So lets say "I need one and only one Operating System to be an upgrade from XP. I already know Vista isn't doing that well. And now u say that Linux is recommended by Microsoft". Should i call Microsoft to ask why they made a 6 bilion dolar OS if the recommend another?

One or two customers (3, Informative)

xzvf (924443) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767679)

Wal Mart going to Novell is enough to spike the numbers 250%. Red Hat had a solid quarter even with the drag of JBoss. Maybe the increase has a lot to do with Linux moving past the "Replace expensive proprietary Unix Phase" where hardware costs in addition to software costs made the savings obvious to pin head bosses, and is now moving into the "Replace hard to manage and support Windows phase" where the initial cost advantage is lower and required the establishment and training of quality Linux administrators? Unix replacement phase created the staff and cost advantages to allow for easier justification of Windows replacement. The fact that Novell is up significantly from practically nothing, and Red Hat is growing solidly from a strong base, indicates deeper market penetration for Linux.

Re:One or two customers (1)

mr_mischief (456295) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768631)

Lots of it is probably, "Replace the rest of our proprietary Unix on x86 because SCO's not going to be around to support us and that whole specter of them suing anyone else is long gone", combined with "Well, if there are any conflicts between Unix and Linux, Novell is surely aware of them now and is willing to sell Linux under the GPL anyway. So there's no chance they can claim what SCO tried to claim."

Do you expect SCO customers to all switch to Solaris or AIX? I sure don't.

Works with Windows, or MS? (1)

Icarium (1109647) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767735)

I'm confused at how Linux can work 'with' Windows. How do two OS'es work with each other...

I can only assume that they are actually refering to the fact that this is a Linux distribution being backed by MS, as opposed to 'working with Windows'.

My Beetle also works with my Porshe, as long as I don't try and drive both at the same time.

Re:Works with Windows, or MS? (2, Informative)

psbrogna (611644) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767875)

They usually mean common (shared) file sharing & authentication service. I'm sure in certain cases this extends to other services but I'm pretty sure these two cover the vast majority of the functionality referred to.

Re:Works with Windows, or MS? (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769747)

No, no no. You've got it wrong. He gave you a car analogy. You have to do the same otherwise the OP won't know what you're talking about.

Let's try this:

- Your Beetle and your Porsche can coexist in the same garage without starting a fire.
- For some iterations of Beetles and Porsches you can use the same distributor and spark plugs (think the very old 914's).
- They both have documentation available in German.

Got the idea now?

Re:Works with Windows, or MS? (1)

SpiritGod21 (884402) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768569)

SuSE integrates with Microsoft Active Directory much more easily than any distro I've used.

Novell New Business Model (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20767739)

So playing whores for Microsoft *is* actually profitable. Surprise ?

What about GPL3 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20767741)

Microsoft say their indemnity doesn't cover GPL3 software, perhaps someone from Novell can comment on that? Last I looked Windows interop is largely via Samba [samba.org] ... Speaking of which, perhaps Novell are also in a position to comment on all the anti-GPL3 FUD we've recently been subjected to?

Clearly a piece of PR puff (1)

jimicus (737525) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767783)

From the summary:

"customers that already have a Windows investment say it seems to make sense to pick the Linux that works with Windows."

Define "works with Windows".

Can speak TCP/IP? Yep, no problem. (I've met plenty of Windows-centric IT people who seem to think networking is some sort of black magic and two different operating systems cannot coexist on a network.)

Can see windows file shares and share files with Windows servers through SMB? Any distribution will do that.

Integrates perfectly with Active Directory, including applying group policies and user authentication? I'm not aware of any distribution which does all of that, though I'm sure you could handle the "user authentication" part easily enough as it's essentially LDAP+Kerberos.

Runs Windows applications? Well, there's Wine, but it's really more a case of "might run your windows application, might not - and if you want support for that application from the app vendor you're almost certainly wasting your time".

Integrates with other server applications such as Exchange and Sharepoint? I'm not aware of any Linux based solutions which do that, but even if there are it's really a function of software on top of the distribution, not the distribution itself.

Re:Clearly a piece of PR puff (5, Insightful)

badfish99 (826052) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768107)

I've met plenty of Windows-centric IT people who seem to think networking is some sort of black magic

I'm not surprised. Getting two Windows boxes to talk to each other on a network is black magic.

Re:Clearly a piece of PR puff (1)

Pecisk (688001) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769585)

Wtf moderators, it's not *Funny*, it's *Insightful* post! :)

What Microsoft have done to SMB protocol is similar how Orcs where created - twisted, tragic parody of real stuff. Starting from Windows 2000, SAMBA actually are more realible than Windows server, from my expierence (For others it could be different. It is also one element of that black magic :)).

Re:Clearly a piece of PR puff (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20769773)

Seriously chap - use a spellchecker. You know it makes sense.

Re:Clearly a piece of PR puff (1)

TechnicalFool (719087) | more than 6 years ago | (#20770951)

Bee cause spell chequers, as whee no, all ways get it write.

Re:Clearly a piece of PR puff (1)

deets (1072072) | more than 6 years ago | (#20771157)

I actually had one windows admin ask me if TCP/IP would work on a Linux box. They seemed to think it was a MS only networking option.

Meaning... (1)

Capt James McCarthy (860294) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767803)

Describe 'works with windows.' Are you having a cluster of mix OSs or is one managing the other?

You have to figure that should another desktop start to take over that MS would just buy them.

Re:Meaning... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20768271)

Works with Windows: Can bastardize itself enough to make up for the shortcomings in Windows software.

Novell's taking advantage of dumb customers (2, Insightful)

TemporalBeing (803363) | more than 6 years ago | (#20767891)

"When we're out there competing with Red Hat, [our salespeople] are saying, 'Our Linux is recommended by Microsoft,' and customers that already have a Windows investment say it seems to make sense to pick the Linux that works with Windows."'"
So they're basically taking advantage of dumb customers that don't know much, if anything, about Linux as basically all Linux distros use the same software (e.g. Samba) - however, they vary in their packaging and support software & tools - to achieve that interoperability. It has nothing to do with being "blessed" by Microsoft - which is really just a death sentence - kind of like the one Hitler had in mind for Japan, and Italy, and the one he did try to carry out on Russia:
  1. Make some "allies" and sign some "treaties"
  2. Let your "allies" help you carry out your "war" on the "enemy"
  3. Wipe out most everyone together with your "allies"
  4. Turn on your "allies" one by one without telling the others
  5. Wipe out your "allies" last when they are least suspecting it
Funny - Hitler had and Microsoft has the same basic plans. Just substitute "competitors" for "enemies" and "partners" for "allies".

Re:Novell's taking advantage of dumb customers (2, Insightful)

e4g4 (533831) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768207)

Hehe - looks like Godwin kicked in a little early in this discussion :P

"Works with Windows" (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20767895)

Using pure marketing like that with clueless CIOs to make sales is going to backfire something fierce in the long term. As soon as there are any problems with compatibility they'll drop Novell and move back to Windows for whatever they were doing and it'll get counted as a win for Microsoft (cue the "xxxx switched from Linux to Windows!" tripe).

sour grapes (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20767991)

i love to see you linux fanbois squirm because ms made something out of a product that you could hardly get off the ground in over a decade. suffer, morons. you keep talking big like you know how this game works but the fact that you're all a bunch of do-nothings with no business prospects proves the truth.

I'm Bill Gates (1)

darth_linux (778182) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768005)

and I approve this Linux.

dance with the devil in the pale moonlight (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20768027)

might leave one (particularly a penguin type, who would normally have no fare with evile) feeling a bit evile all the rest of the time??? they do it for the phoney stock markup FraUD monIE. butt, anyone whois been there can say for certain the cost (loss of integrity/regard for yOUR fellow humans, etc..) is prohibitive.

Novell and M$, I'm confused (1)

boudie2 (1134233) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768039)

So would this make Novell the Jane Fonda or Neville Chamberlain of Linux distros?

Re:Novell and M$, I'm confused (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20771121)

I think a better analogy is Novell is to Lunix as Apple is to Unix.

Apple would be nothing more than a memory if SteveJob wouldn't have gotten Uncle Bill to come through with a hot cash injection. Same thing here: MS is saving teh Lunix from itself, especially since GPLv3 has the potential to take all of FOSS down the toilet with it.

Novell - Coming to Xbox Live? (1)

Alzheimers (467217) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768079)

He added that the growth was also due to the halo effect of the arrangement.

Maybe all the problems with Active Directory is what causes A.I. Rampancy [wikipedia.org]

Marketing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20768155)

Businesses continue to look for better ways to spend their marketing and advertising dollars while their customer base continually grow more and more suspicious of every claim they make. Advertising apathy continues to dominate the individual consumer while it is surprisingly absent from corporate decision making. Word of mouth is still the number 1 force in individual consumer decision making and yet surprisingly absent from corporate decision making. All of the individuals here are asking good questions about how this news relates to them or how it affects them and blowing holes in the PR machine behind such statements. Meanwhile the corporate world is still believing everything they read.

It reminds me of something a writer friend of mine once said about the newspaper he works for. "We can't print it unless someone else said it. It doesn't have to be true. Someone just has to say it so we can quote it".

The individual consumer, who can apply logic and reason to their purchases have no use for anything that smells remotely like PR or marketing "untruths". Where as the corporate world has to rely on printed and published "facts". As my friend knows, those printed "facts" don't have to be true, they just have to be printed.

Thanks to Slashdot (and other web sites) our corporate decision makers can now print pages of individual consumer comments and introduce word of mouth to their decision making process. Well... they COULD, but articles like this kind of speak to the fact that they aren't. They obviously don't consider the voice of the individual as having any weight in the board room. Oh wait... we already knew that didn't we?

The oldest story in a book. (1)

moshennik (826059) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768197)

When you sell your soul to the devil you tend to make more money. Of course the price is eternal damnation. I guess Novell made their choice clear.

It's cool (1)

old_skul (566766) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768201)

I for one welcome our new SuSE overlords.

No one ever went broke... (1)

Shotgun (30919) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768269)

No one ever went broke counting on the stupidity of the corporate manager.

Of course Microsoft say..... (1)

HartDev (1155203) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768281)

Of course MS says that it recommends Novells version of Linux, because now they make money off the people that are fed up with Windows problems, yes Novell benefits heavily, but MS has its very calculated reasons to be helpful at all. My father worked for Novell for over a decade and he used to get mad at me a kid when I hosed a machine trying out different distros of Linux, then Novell bought SUSE and he had to buy a four inch thick Linux programming bible! Well he moved back to Canada (where we are all from) cause he could not stand the politics and how nothing could be done in a highly profitable business unless you are someones family member or really good friend. I would still go with redhat because MS does not have a dirty hand in them and Redhat is firm against the ridiculous claim that 235 infringements (that MS can't seem to pin point) have been made by the open source community. Hey here is a thought, keep working on Netware, Netware 6 was really cool!

Re:Of course Microsoft say..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20768475)

>Well he moved back to Canada (where we are all from) cause he could not stand the politics and how nothing could be done in a highly profitable business unless you are someones family member or really good friend.

Sounds like he jumped out of the frying pan into the fire to me. Nepotism is the Canadian way.

Re:Of course Microsoft say..... (1)

Stu101 (1031686) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768869)

You may jest, but we run Netware 6 / 6.5 and ill tell you what, its a whole world easier that the BS MS servers gives you. The netware boxes just sit there and hum away. With Novell we don't have "patch Tuesday", we don't have script kiddies trying to crack it, we dont have to spend significant time doing repairs on it. Our uptime on Netware is easily 99.99 on a month to month basis, wheres as the windows servers are still up there, but noticably less uptime.

Re:Of course Microsoft say..... (1)

HartDev (1155203) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769029)

No I do not jest, I really do like Netware, that was the first file server I ever ran, my dad had that at home since he was a programmer there, and I almost got my CNA in Netware 5.1, and the new things they were rolling out with for Netware 6 was Awesome! I sincerely meant it when I said they should continue their Netware project. In the future when I got out of my microscopic apartment I want to run a Netware file server or a Linux Media center that will double as a file server. I also really enjoyed the Novell Admin tool (that was written in C) and the Console One (not for it's speed but for it's cross platform ability)

This was the expand. (1)

defuse3388 (1012227) | more than 6 years ago | (#20768519)

That's sounds to be wonderul. Mr.Gates had already declared that its a process of embrase and expand.

Suse is the LInux that works with Novell, not MS (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769873)

Most of the companies I've heard that are switching to Suse on desktop or server from MS Windows are doing it because they're still Novell shops, where Novell has been the way of doing things, and MS has been a necessary evil. Now that SLE[S/D] has a lot of built-in Novell goodness, these companies are buying up Suse like crazy. The Novell/MS deal may have triggered minor sales via advertising that Novell has a linux option, but I doubt any serious Novell admins would have been blind to that fact before the deal.

SUSE 10.0 is sleek indeed (2, Informative)

snikulin (889460) | more than 6 years ago | (#20769985)

I have SUSE Enterprise Desktop at work (we are in MS Srv2003 world).
It's very nice as a corporate desktop.

Pros:
It has connected to our Directory seamlessly during installation.
All network printers and shares are OK, with correct access rights.
Installation and driver support, IMO is the best among all Linuxen( ~xes? :).
The domain controller recognized it as a domain member and listed it as such.
Nice and laconic KDE (but the installation defaults to Gnome).
Slack-derived init scripts and layout (well, I personally like it more then Debian-derived one).

Cons:
It does not have text mode installation target.
Yast is absent (I really liked it in previous versions!).

Conclusion:
I like it!

Disclaimer:
I run at home two SUSE (old 10.0, non-enterprise one) servers for about 3 years.
Previously they were powered by SUSE 9.3 and before that by Slackware.

Money talks, Open Source walks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20770237)

For business it was never about Open Source, FSF, GPL (1, 2, or bloody 3). No one who signs purchase orders is listening a "community"; they want good pricing but they also want a contract with someone they can compell to repair and someone who has $$ of their own to lose. This alliance between MS and Novell, no brainer that it was going to sell like hotcakes.

Now, watch the alliance hamper the adoption of GPL 3... If GPL 3 turns out to be enforaceble and MS/Novell stay clear big business will no doubt choose GPL 2.

Novell apologists (1)

Vexorian (959249) | more than 6 years ago | (#20770497)

So, please try defending the deal now, where it is clear Novell is actively FUDing against other distros and Microsoft is succeeding in the embrace part of the strategy.

If you want Linux's success go anything but Novell, if you want Novell's success and eventual dead + MS keeping the desktop monopoly go Novell, please, I don't want the apologists to ever say again that the deal was good for Linux, I am tired of reading BS.

speaking from a marketing perspective (1)

crazybilly (947714) | more than 6 years ago | (#20771315)

Speaking from a marketing perspective, this seems like boder line great marketing on Novell's part, border-line FUD. I would guess that quote started in the marketing department, got rewritten by the CEO to something a bit more honest, then went back to the marketing department where they changed a couple words back to give us that dumb "already works with Windows." For the first time, though, this whole Novell/MS thing makes sense to me from Novell's standpoint: get MS on your side, and knock down that whole "well, what about moving from Microsoft--that's going to be a pain in the butt" thing real quick. Saying 'works with Windows' doesn't really make any sense, which is a pretty clear indication that the marketing department wrote it (I'm in marketing--I have no clue how our products work (particularly compared to the competition); I doubt Novell's in that much better a position, at least with their low-level marketing grunts like me). I wouldn't call it FUD. I'd call it misinformed/misspeaking Marketing Dept. And I'd call Novell pretty smart for figuring out a way to get past one of the major obstacles for Linux adoption.
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