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More Lich King Details, Apologies For Burning Crusade?

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the because-we've-all-been-deeply-offended dept.

Role Playing (Games) 165

1up is hosting content from the most recent edition of Games For Windows magazine. The front page of that august publication features the grimacing face of Arthas, poster boy for the upcoming Wrath of the Lich King expansion to World of Warcraft. The article inside has a bunch of new details on the game update, as well as a lengthy discussion with Blizzard's Chris Metzen on the first WoW expansion, Burning Crusade. Some of Metzen's comments along those lines are a bit surprising: "'It had a lot of high-concept ideas, high-concept environments,' he says, calling to mind the psychedelic mushrooms of Zangarmarsh, the tragic majesty of Tempest Keep, 'but other than some really nice moments, there was nothing really personal about it.'"

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august? (4, Funny)

gEvil (beta) (945888) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815277)

The front page of that august publication features the grimacing face of Arthas...

File this under "old news." We're already in October, Zonk. Sheesh... : p

Re:august? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20815383)

I don't think august means what you think it means ;)

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
august
-adjective
1. inspiring reverence or admiration; of supreme dignity or grandeur; majestic: an august performance of a religious drama.
2. venerable; eminent: an august personage.

Re:august? (1)

QMalcolm (1094433) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815799)

sarcasm /srkæzm/
-noun
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.

Re:august? (2, Funny)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815895)

august /aw gus t /ln augustus - fr auot
-month
1. referring to the month when people should stop wearing white in summer
2. referring to the month when people should stop quoting thing
3. a time when the Lich King will take your soul for pubbing silly asides that have nothing to do with WoW

Re:august? (1)

ultranova (717540) | more than 6 years ago | (#20820641)

the Lich King will take your soul for pubbing silly asides that have nothing to do with WoW

So put your soul into a phylactery and the phylactery into a bank vault of a Swiss bank. As a nice side effect you'll lose weight, your voice will get lower and sexier, and your looks will improve, increasing your sex appeal - at least if you're a typical Slashdotter.

There's not that much different between your parent's basement and a crypt, you know.

Re:august? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20816021)

That dude not only got a Month named after him, but his own frickin' adjective? Who was "megalomaniacal" named after?

Re:august? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20815559)

The front page of that august publication features the grimacing face of Arthas...

File this under "old news." We're already in October, Zonk. Sheesh... : p


That word you use, I do not think it means what you think it means

Uh, august isn't just the eigth month of the year:

Main Entry: august
Pronunciation: o-'g&st, 'o-(")g&st
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin augustus; akin to Latin augur
: marked by majestic dignity or grandeur

Note the lack of the capital "A", meaning he is not talking about the August issue. Poor choice of words.

L2EnglishLanguage, kthnxbie!

High concept (2)

Protonk (599901) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815313)

Too bad, I liked Zangarmarsh. Much more fun to lvl there than Terrokar Forest or HFP. Even blade's edge and Nagrand seemed to be a little uninspired. The first zone i liked after Zangarmarsh was Netherstorm.

Re:High concept (1)

Kris_J (10111) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817565)

I agree. I really enjoyed Zangarmarsh and happily played my (herbalist) druid through it without getting frustrated and feeling a great need to switch to an alt for some fun. The quest density was amazing; Just fill your log to the brim and kill anything and it counts. And those Sporegaar dudes are so cute.

Re:High concept (1)

fractoid (1076465) | more than 6 years ago | (#20818729)

Zangarmarsh was OK, Hellfire had some nifty tricks early on (bombing run anyone?) but in the end was just Badlands 2.0, Nagrand was OK but for gods sake, enough with the "kill 30 raptors" and "bring me 25 raptor wangs" quests! Blade's Edge was just far too painful to get around without a flying mount, I guess the quests there are meant to be done for gold for your epic flying mount. At least they showed a small amount more variety.

Re:High concept (1)

tsm_sf (545316) | more than 6 years ago | (#20818835)

I thought Nagrand was beautiful. Nice to have a well-lighted open environment in a video game instead of the usual son-of-Id toestubbers. The sky reminds me of a Wyeth, and the floating 'islands' are a nice touch.

Not an apology (3, Interesting)

Tridus (79566) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815451)

What a silly title. Its not an apology. Metzen's said that they wound up not liking how Illidan was just off in the Black Temple, and he doesn't really matter throughout most of the content.

They want a more personal experience in Lich King, in the sense that Arthas will be more in your face. Think Pathaelon the Calculator, who you keep running into as you level in BC. They want Arthas to be more visible and more interesting, rather then off in the background most of the time.

I view it as a good thing. They learned a lot from BC, and that should make for a better expansion this time.

Re:Not an apology (4, Insightful)

KevMar (471257) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815709)

It dont matter much to me. I just auto accept every quest then look up the cords in thottbot or wowhead. run to those cords, do quest, run back. Never even read the story. Just collect the loots/xp/gold and on to the next yellow question mark.

I'm sure some people will eat it up. I'm just not one of them.

Re:Not an apology (2, Interesting)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815845)

I do similar, except I read the story bits. The WoW content people write pretty good quest stories, so I like to read them and get an impression of what's going on in-character.

Re:Not an apology (3, Interesting)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815959)

That's why they make it work both ways. They have all the story stuff in there, because some people get really in to it. They enjoy the lore of the world. However, they don't force you to sit through it if you are one of those for whom the fun is in the doing, not the reason behind it. Good overall design that way.

Re:Not an apology (3, Insightful)

StikyPad (445176) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816669)

Hmm.. so it comes down to large numbers of people either running around mindlessly, or running around pretending there's a higher purpose behind it. Sounds like something else I've heard of... ah, right.. life! Funny "escapes", RPGs.

Re:Not an apology (1)

ultranova (717540) | more than 6 years ago | (#20820675)

Hmm.. so it comes down to large numbers of people either running around mindlessly, or running around pretending there's a higher purpose behind it. Sounds like something else I've heard of... ah, right.. life! Funny "escapes", RPGs.

If people ran around more, summertime would be more aesthetically pleasing. But instead they drive around in cars, polluting the environment and collecting fat. Not that I should speak, sitting down writing this message instead of being at the gym, but still...

Do your civic duty and run around for real to get firm buttocks so your fellows can ogle them come summer and short skirts - or shorts, if that is your preference - instead of running around in WoW accomplishing nothing.

Re:Not an apology (2, Insightful)

Kidbro (80868) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817021)

I just auto accept every quest then look up the cords in thottbot or wowhead. run to those cords, do quest, run back.

Fascinating. With a few rare exceptions, I find that it's usually faster to just read the damn quest descriptions (which generally tell you exactly where to go) than to head off to thottbot for coordinates.
Yes, really.

Re:Not an apology (2, Insightful)

SilentOneNCW (943611) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817229)

It dont matter much to me. I just auto accept every quest then look up the cords in thottbot or wowhead. run to those cords, do quest, run back. Never even read the story. Just collect the loots/xp/gold and on to the next yellow question mark.

Then why do you even play the game?

Re:Not an apology (2, Insightful)

Das Modell (969371) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817389)

Uh... why wouldn't he be playing? WoW isn't an adventure game. You spend almost all of your time fighting and collecting loot.

Re:Not an apology (1)

Funkcikle (630170) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815869)

Think Pathaelon the Calculator, who you keep running into as you level in BC.
That's an excellent point - every time I was doing a quest in which Pathaelon popped up and turned up to be the antagonist behind the scenes, I'd think "Not YOU again! You bloody troublemaker! Some day I am going to hunt you down in the Mechanar and farm you silly".

Some kind of incidental music that goes "Dun dun DUUUUUN!" every time Arthas pops up twiddling his moustache would be good too. "Where is the rent? I must have the rent! Dollars, dimes and nickels, I need them all right nooooow!"

What they SHOULD apologize for (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20816235)

What they SHOULD apologize for is their habit of putting uber-powerful wandering elites in zones where individuals or small-groups are trying to accomplish individual and small-group quests.

The presence of a monster that can sneak up behind you and kill you in two hits does NOT add to the challenge of the game, but rather, the frustration.

Re:Not an apology (1)

Kingrames (858416) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817523)

From the very first line of the actual article:
"We're still playing far too much of The Burning Crusade -- but, for some reason, Blizzard vice president of creative development Chris Metzen seems to be apologizing for it."

hence the word apology. If you'd read the first sentence, you'd probably have read just as much as the submitter, since that's the only place where there's an apology, but you'd have at least read some of it.

The Expansion they wish they made first (2, Insightful)

EggMan2000 (308859) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815499)

It's funny how Blizz seems to lament BC as if they made too many mistakes. I do appreciate that experience with the first big expansion gave them a lot of lessons learned to apply to this latest expansion.

My main bone of contention though is that the 1-70 grind is not getting much attention. Do they feel that all of that is throw-away? I understand adding new content to the end game to keep fanatics engaged. My guild is just finishing TK and getting ready for Black Temple so the timing is perfect to keep them all interested in future content. But what about adding new players, and expanding offerings for players that are new?

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (4, Informative)

Admiral Justin (628358) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815621)

Patch 2.3 *the one coming to a PTR near you in about 24 hours* has:

Level 20-60 Quest EXP has been increased, while EXP to Level has been decreased

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815677)

So essentially, they're making changes so that the "middle" level grind is shorter.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

BlackCobra43 (596714) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816165)

Why make the low-level grind any shorter? It already takes good players less than a day to get to level 20...and just over an hour to get to level 10.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816359)

I agree. Even by going all the given quests, getting to 10 is easy, and 20 is harder only if you get bored easily or have to pee. Nothing particularly interesting gameplay-wise happens between 20-60, sadly. Sure you "get stuff" and improve abilities, but most of the time it's quest-quest-grindgrind-run-from-bored-70's-that-need-to-get-their-stupid-asses-in-a-raiding-guild-instead-of-ganking-in-stv-quest-quest

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

ZombieWomble (893157) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816667)

The middle grind is where all the shameful content is - the early zones received massive amounts of polish (particularly the expansion ones) and the 60+ zones are already tuned to a pretty exacting degree (and filled with a much better overall structure). In the middle you have a lot of zones which just aren't as well put together as the early and late zones, so Blizz has apparently decided to hurry everyone through that so they can focus on the "good" content.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Kris_J (10111) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817459)

One of the things I've noticed about the "middle levels" is that if you're not careful about moving around zones you can end up with all orange and red quests. My first character basically had to grind green mobs for a couple of levels around the high 40s because I missed a couple of entire zones and the quests there were grey by the time I found them. By simply upping the XP you get and reducing the XP per level Blizzard are saving themselves from ever having to add any more quests from 20-60. They don't need to worry about below 20 because every time they add a new starting area for a new race (or whatever) they give players even more ways to get to 20. In fact, there's already more than enough low-level quests for you to pretty much only do green quests from about 6 to 20 if you know where to go. (That reminds me, I should take my little rogue to the Draenei starting area.)

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

fractoid (1076465) | more than 6 years ago | (#20819299)

Not only that, but there are deliberate cockblocks to levelling every 10 levels or so between about 35 and 60. I generally find 36-39, 46-49 to be horrible because there are no real quest hubs, you either grind or you spend 90% of your time running around trying to find quests. They did this because during development, they wanted to eke out the 'last little bit' before level cap (which started at 40, then went to 50, then 55, then 60, afaik).

If they're doing something to speed up the levelling doldrums that start mid-40s, then that's excellent. It doesn't take 20+ days /played to learn to play your class, they should just take out all the 'filler' quests. There's enough content to keep anyone occupied now without grinds.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Homr Zodyssey (905161) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815717)

Typical. I just hit 61 last night and now they're doing that....

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815795)

My main is smack in the middle, so I'm a happy Drae for that.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Kris_J (10111) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817533)

The 20-60 news hit my guild's forums a few days back. I've been working on a hunter I'd got up to 40-something and a Shaman at 20-something, but I've parked both and been working on my 60-something since the news.

I'm going to have a lot of fun burning my alts through the levels once the change comes out.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (0, Redundant)

everphilski (877346) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815833)

OK, so they have made the mid-leveling shorter, but they haven't made it any more meaningful.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815875)

What would you consider an addition that would make it more meaningful?

Not that I'm disagreeing with you (I might be, dunno), but I'm curious as to what would make 20-60 meaningful in your eyes.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

fotbr (855184) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816217)

Different quests. So that those of us re-rolling new characters can do something different, rather than the same thing we've done before.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

everphilski (877346) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816239)

I'm not for sure myself, I do have a few ideas, but I believe there is a distinction to be made between the initial post and the reply. The initial post stated, "Do they feel that all of that [1-70] is throw-away?, to which the reply came that leveling would be quicker, essentially saying yes, leveling is a throw-away.

I haven't played WoW since 3 months after the release, I can't speak to the game as it is today (I hit 60 and got bored. Sold my accout and came back to EQ). Actually right now I'm playing a lowbie in Everquest with my wife. That is meaningful to me (1) because it is with my wife and (2) because I'm revisiting old content I haven't seen in 5+ years. I do think leveling in EQ means more because you can lose it along the way (death = xp loss).

I have thought of some ways to make it more meaningful, and most do revolve around experiance, using and losing it. Basically make it a commodity, something to buy and sell (both between yourself and the character sheet, and yourself and the open market) instead of a percentage ticker to keep you out of level 70 content :)

1) xp funnel into abilities, not just raw levels. Instead of randomly skilling up when you use abilities, you have to funnel a portion of your XP torwards. The more you funnel, the better you get (the less goes to actual leveling, player level). and the more damage you can do at lower levels. You can then strike a balance between speed of leveling and how much damage you put out. You could then make the system totally de-classed and have different pools to dump XP into, by picking the right ratios then existing classes will naturally arise.
2) xp loss on death. You break it you buy it.
3) stuff based on expending experiance. In Everquest, the necromancer class could resurrect one soul by slaying another. They would have to kill one player (over level 46) and store their soul in an 'essence emerald' (EE) and then they could spend it in a resurrection spell to rez another player of any level. (there were other spells/quests that required EE's too) Anyways long story short, experience should be able to be funneled into other resources. Some examples I can think would work: (1) resurrection (EQ did it) (2) major instant hit potions (EQ did it, and didn't D&D have certain spells that required experiance to scribe or cast? been waaay too long) (3) item enhancement (get a bonus to the stats on your gear)
4) alternate advancement experiance. In Everquest you can funnel your experiance into an alternate pool and spend it on abilities, similar to talents, except there are like 2,000 points now to be spent on hundreds of abilities. Some have prereqs but they are all permenant. Kinda similar to dumping experiance into skills, except these generally either (1) (mostly) provided passive bonuses like enhanced run speed or DPS or (2) gave you a special ability.

I mention Everquest a lot, I know, but I think they did some good things wrt to experience and how they handle it. I think you can take it further in a MMO and make it a real commodity second to gold/plat itself

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816323)

There's some value to your ideas, but I think you're overlooking the fact that WoW has a huge allowance for the casual player. So making the system increasingly complex will hurt their revenue stream.

I'm not convinced that having more and more options is better, anyway. Inevitably the "choices" get narrowed down to a set of fairly-well-known templates that are optimal for a given task, and the other specs get left along the road.

Also, I don't really think that experience loss makes leveling more meaningful. It makes it more stressful and gives a penalty for death, but meaningful? I'm unconvinced. Exp would have to be much easier to amass for that not to be frustrating really fast (especially for a gimped class, for example).

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

everphilski (877346) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816635)

I'm not convinced that having more and more options is better, anyway.

It wouldn't have to be overly complex. You start out as a man, woman or orc. You have four bubbles on your stat sheet which have to total to 100%: one is experiance, one is healing, one is spell damage, the other melee damage, the fifth is personal enhancement. You can change at any time, from kill to kill, etc. Pick what you want to do.

Of course WoW would never go it. You'd quickly disenchant your least-common-denominator player, of which most of their players are it seems.

It makes it more stressful and gives a penalty for death, but meaningful? I'm unconvinced.

After a long, hard dungeon crawl, yea, I think it does. Especially if you have been in the place where you come out a night with negative XP. You tend to learn your class **very** quickly. I can remember a number of instances from back in 2002 when I was in a bind but was able to pull out and survive, sometimes miraculously. I'm not sure I can remember that many newbie instances from my paladin in WoW, and that was a number of years later.

My personal opinion is, MMO's shouldn't design for the masses. WoW is just that - a MMO for the lowest common denominator. MMO's **should** strive for something unique. Design for 50k, 100k or 500k players. You don't have to break WoW to compete. Come up with something unique. It's sad but (most of the new MMO's) feel like we are back playing FPS's in the late 90's: it's essentially all the same game, just a slightly different skin.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Pzychotix (949807) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817063)

*ahem*

Money.

Enough said.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

everphilski (877346) | more than 6 years ago | (#20819551)

I know. It's too late for Blizzard, they are a lost cause.

But I don't think its impossible for a new studio to think small. See, profit = net - costs of operating. So if you can minimize your operating cost, you can profit with a much smaller number of users, or more users at a lower subscription rate. So instead of shooting straight for millions of users, shoot for a more moderate level, reduce costs accordingly and you can survive with a smaller player base.

People (here, notably) keep preaching gameplay trumps graphics. It wouldn't be impossible to make a game with great gameplay that appeals to the masses, but I really think you can carve out a dedicated fanbase with a more specific, more intense, perhaps more difficult gameplay. Might have to sacrifice some things like x million users or glitzy graphics to stay in budget for a MMO of 10,000 or 100,000 users ... but I think it might be worth doing.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 6 years ago | (#20820693)

Mid levels needn't be a grindfest.

Up to lv 20, you learn how to play the class. You get a new skill every now and then, then you get to play around with it and find an application. Up to lv 20, you also get to see all the "quest flavors" (i.e. bring A to B, kill X of Y (and its variant, kill X for Y and bring me Z of Y), find A and bring him back here...). In other words, you have seen everything when you're 20.

And that could be changed, for example. After lv 20, it is actually a grindfest up to endgame. There's no meaningful content in between. There are no new skills (aside of a few that you rarely if ever really need until endgame). So how about a mid level nemesis? Some lv 40 boss whose minions you slaughter throughout 2-3 areas with a story that builds up to slaying him? Where you have to gather a few keys, goodies and whatnot to unlock his chamber? Yes, it's essentially still grinding, but you have a "face" to it, some rather tangible "end" to the means. What bugs me most is that from 20 to 60 you have mostly unconnected instances and quests that are by no means connected to each other in any way. You just do them, lacking anything better to do and the need to get gear.

Sure, that lv 40 boss is a farmfest at 45, but by then you should rather be out to hunt down the next bosses minions. The Defias were a good idea, something similar for lv 40ish would be an idea. While at low levels, slaughtering the minions "outside" and the boss in an instance is a good idea and nice buildup, for lv 40 I'd envision a few instances where you gather the keys (i.e. the instance bosses drop the keys for the main instance). Much like it is in endgame.

The "medium" levels should be a prep for endgame. And I don't only mean in terms of getting to know your class. They should teach you how the endgame works. And endgame works that way. So what's wrong with using those levels to "teach" the players what kind of gameplay to expect in endgame?

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20816375)

Do you mean meaningful or fun? The real problem is that 20-60 is boring, and once you've done it a couple times so is 61-70. There is no 'massive multiplayer' in that part of the game at all, if you do the multiplayer quests or dungeons at all then you most likely have a high level friend rush you through.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

EggMan2000 (308859) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815933)

Well then that confirms it, breeze thought the middle leveling grind and get to 70/80. That could make it more fun, you would spend a lot less time in specific zones, and get to experience fresh content as you progress. There's a lot to see and do at the lower levels, and I suppose there is a point that if you are new, it's *all* new to you anyway. It's those of us that re-roll that get more frustrated grinding up.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815997)

DAoC, in its later revisions, introduced the ability for people who had max-level characters to start another character at an advanced level, in order to avoid the low-mid-level grinding (which was pretty bad in that game at times). This was done partially for the reason you mention, and partially to increase the diversity of character types for PvP (which was much better in DAoC than WoW, if you ask me). Since some character classes are also, obviously, harder/more tedious to level, and since DAoC has something on the order of 40 character classes, this seemed to work out fairly well and make a good measure of sense.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

fotbr (855184) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816187)

While I'd love that ability in WoW, the argument is "then people won't know how to play their new characters effectively, and raiding / instances will suck".

I say, what does it matter, when people buy characters or buy leveling services, have a high-level alt, and STILL don't know how to play.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816261)

While I'd love that ability in WoW, the argument is "then people won't know how to play their new characters effectively, and raiding / instances will suck".

I say, what does it matter, when people buy characters or buy leveling services, have a high-level alt, and STILL don't know how to play.
Not only that, but if they don't know how to play their new characters effectively, then I guess they'll just have to learn, won't they? I don't really see the problem with that.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Rjak (1098857) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816577)

The problem with THAT is you're supposed to learn the basics of your class on *YOUR* time, not on the 10/20/25/40 other-people-in-your-raid's time. As it sits, this is kept to a minimum (not a zero, just a minimum, which means the majority of players are at least somewhat competent). It's hard enough now to put together a guild of competent players...if you make it even easier to breeze through the lower levels, you reduce that pool and make guild-forming even more slow and painful than it already is. I think what they've done is a decent compromise.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20816735)

But what is there about 20-60 that causes players to learn their class? Doing bear ass collection quests and playing package delivery guy don't teach you about aggro, or mana management, or raid preparation. Skills learned while leveling have almost nothing to do with learning your place in a group or raid.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817377)

Correct. The players that want to learn their characters will, but the PvE content previous to end-game raiding doesn't exactly concentrate on preparing people to do group work (not to mention some of the pet classes can do a *lot* of the group quests while solo).

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20818075)

Even the lower level group quests and instances won't do a lot to prepare you for raiding. Doing instances and fighting elites with a group will teach you tank and spank aggro and basic resource management. Raiding include a lot of preparation work, raid encounters themselves require encounter-specific skills and organization for each new raid encounter.

So unless your raid guild grows solely by poaching members from other raiding guilds (which is fairly common) you are gonna have to deal with the fact that most players are gonna learn to raid on your time.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 6 years ago | (#20820721)

Handing someone a lv 20 char will not change whether he knows how to play by the time he's 70. There's plenty of time 'til then. If he can't learn in 50 levels, he can't learn in 70 either.

I'd rather fear rushing people through the levels 20-60, that's where you learn to play in a group. Until 20, you're mostly on your own anyway, and play style is vastly different solo vs. team.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (2, Interesting)

RalphSleigh (899929) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816125)

They should leave the previous XP level at it is, but rebalance much of the pre TBC endgame content to fit in before the players hit 58. Places like Winterspring and The Plaguelands are dead now, they should balance it so these areas have more use before players hit 58 and head to the Outlands. I suspect the same will happen for the current TBC endgame areas when this new expansion is released.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

EggMan2000 (308859) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816231)

I agree that those zones are dead. I have a lvl 70 TBC Shaman and am only keyed for BWL. The only time I ever stepped into BRD was to run a guildie "twink" through. So much of that lvl 50-60 content has been thrown away.

I think they should actually re-tune those zones and quest lines to be post 60 content so that it's used. Put some rare spawns in there, give us a reason to go to WPL, Winterspring, and EPL. (I know that Nax is turning into the first lvl 80 instance)

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 6 years ago | (#20820661)

In other words, we'll get to see even more people at lv 70 who don't have the foggiest clue how to play. Just effing great.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815673)

My main bone of contention though is that the 1-70 grind is not getting much attention. Do they feel that all of that is throw-away?

All I know is I've got lots of level 4 to 29 characters and somehow the grind makes me not push hard to make them higher level.

It would help if they more clearly marked group quests.

For example, if I have to go into a physically constrained mine, in oh say, the Barrens, to get an elite level 25 surrounded by 10 level 20-24 warriors bound to aggro me, that's a Group Quest - not an Individual Quest (unless I was a Rogue).

Just a hint. It's no fun dying 20 times and getting nowhere.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815733)

I do believe that at least the Cosmos addon will mark quests with a "g" as known group quests.

You mean like that (Group) marker? (1)

BlackCobra43 (596714) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816195)

The one clearly added in your quest log? With the little "Suggested players : X" in the description log?

Granted, they haven't gotten around to doing every single Elite-Mob-Bearing quest yet but it's there.

Re:You mean like that (Group) marker? (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816373)

Yeah, frequently not (selected) for quests involving high-aggro situations (like Murlocs) and highly-constricted environments like caves where just attacking one brings ten down on you.

Seriously, most of us waste a lot of time before we clue in it's a Group quest they didn't mark as "Group".

Re:You mean like that (Group) marker? (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817121)

I hate to sound like an elitist ass, but get some skills. While I might occasionally die doing murlocs I completed all relevant quests two levels before recommended with both my mage and my hunter. My tanks types didn't do murlocs as they did those levels elsewhere to stave off boredom, but I don't think you should have a problem with proper pulling techniques. I don't play WoW anymore due to boredom, so perhaps they made the murlocs super strong post BC launch?

Re:You mean like that (Group) marker? (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817255)

Look, now that I know they are group quests, they're no prob.

But they aren't labelled as such. It's fine for my hunter or rogue to do them.

And pulling inside caves doesn't work well for warriors.

Re:You mean like that (Group) marker? (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 6 years ago | (#20820729)

Though sometimes you wonder. I had a group quest (suggested: 4), only to find out that 2 would've been plenty (if one is a Warrior and the other one a Priest).

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

brkello (642429) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815899)

Players that are new don't need new content. There is plenty of content at the lower levels for them to go through. It is only boring if you are leveling many characters to 70. I don't see the complaint for a new player though...they have all that content that we had (plus more beginner zones).

Really, you want to keep the people playing so you need to please the end game people. They are the ones that have played the longest and invested the most. The early game content (while dated) is still quite good.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (2, Interesting)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815955)

Was just talking about this with someone else. The original WoW noob zones could really use some fine tuning, as there's some situations where you run out of quests for your level and have to old-fashioned grind to get back up to speed. Plus the chaining of quests isn't all that well developed.

The Blood Elf and Draenei 1-20 quest chains, though, are extremely well developed not only with regards to keeping you stocked with appropriately leveled quests (and making those quests seem interesting and immersive), but also with regards to adequate equipment as quest rewards, to alleviate the need to buy equipment from vendors or make it yourself.

They definitely learned how to optimize the whole beginning-of-game experience between the initial release and TBC.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

EggMan2000 (308859) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816257)

The Dranei 1-20 quest line is amazing. The whole town meeting and applauding you is a really nice touch. It keeps the quests from feeling so static.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (3, Interesting)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816649)

Yeah, you can try to level 30-46 without going into Stranglethorn Vale but it's damn near impossible. The other areas of the game (Desolace, Arathi highlands, etc) have nowhere near the same quest density that STV does. And 46-58 are a rut of their own with quests forcing you to travel halfway across the world to complete them and if you don't want to play that game you're pretty much stuck grinding. Once you get out to the outland at 58 you're back in nice, focussed quests again. Although it does seem to be possible to run out of them before you hit 70. Anyway, some new pre-60 zones around the world would be nice to take up a lot of that slack.

Also, I don't get the impression a lot of people are running the old 60 uber-epic quests anymore. Not much point when you're just going to be replacing those Tier 1 and 2 epics with greens as soon as you get to the outland. If that's true, they could just make those dungeons challenging for 70 (or 80) level characters in groups of 5-10 and add some incentives to go back in there. There's no point in letting those dungeons go to waste.

It'd also be nice if they could add incentives to play classes that are needed. It's generally priests and tank guys but I bet they could come up with a dynamic way to encourage class creation of any class that's out of balance at any given time. Possibly give them better starting gear or a boost to the professions they choose or something along those lines. If the current state of affairs is going to continue for healers and tanks, lowering the respec cost caps for those professions would definitely be a nice gesture (If a priest is going to HAVE to respec for solo questing it should either cost a lot less or he should get some free ones every week.)

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

k8to (9046) | more than 6 years ago | (#20818357)

Yeah, you can try to level 30-46 without going into Stranglethorn Vale but it's damn near impossible. The other areas of the game (Desolace, Arathi highlands, etc) have nowhere near the same quest density that STV does.
Everyone says this but it's just not true. I really dislike stranglethorn, and so I don't do it. Arathi and Desolace have plenty of content to get you to 35, at which point Dustwallow Marsh, Badlands, and Aterac Mountains all open up, giving you plenty of content to get to 40, whereupon Tanaris, Feralas, and the Hinterlands are available to you.

There's no need to spend any time at all in Stranglethorn if you aren't interested in it. Stranglethorn does have the highest quest density, so if your goal is to get to 70 as fast as possible, I guess it's the place for you. I don't really understand why so many people have this goal, but the time to achieve that is being cut by around 20-30% in the near future, so rejoice.

With the rest, I agree. The later-azeroth stuff has too much round-the-world silliness. Late 50s is ignored by most (although in my second character to do this I'm deliberately choosing to run scholomance, etc, because they're GREAT!).

As for class balance it's quite fiddly, it takes some time for classes to level so there are very different populations of classes at different levels. Healers for example are on the upswing (wow census data). I also haven't really encountered much of a lack of tanks, although I've certainly encountered players who insist certain class/specs can't tank who can! Eg. booting arms warriors from ramparts groups then finding they can't get a "proper" tank.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 6 years ago | (#20818911)

Also, I don't get the impression a lot of people are running the old 60 uber-epic quests anymore. Not much point when you're just going to be replacing those Tier 1 and 2 epics with greens as soon as you get to the outland. If that's true, they could just make those dungeons challenging for 70 (or 80) level characters in groups of 5-10 and add some incentives to go back in there. There's no point in letting those dungeons go to waste.

When the concept was announced, this is what I thought "heroic mode" dungeons were going to be: the old dungeons, re-balanced for the new level cap. I mean that's what it said, that heroics were dungeons re-balanced around level 70 players and with similarly upgraded loot. Sounded great to me. Instead, what we got was the -new- dungeons, including the ones that are already level 70 dungeons, made harder and with a pre-requisite rep grind. Yay?

If the current state of affairs is going to continue for healers and tanks, lowering the respec cost caps for those professions would definitely be a nice gesture (If a priest is going to HAVE to respec for solo questing it should either cost a lot less or he should get some free ones every week.)

Respec costs are a gold sink, nothing more. There's no real reason for them to exist as far as gameplay goes. It's just another way for Blizzard to suck money from the economy. Money sinks are needed, but I think respec costs are an ill-conceived way to do it.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

Kopiok (898028) | more than 6 years ago | (#20818407)

The problem is, it's fun to about level 30, maybe less, then it poops out and becomes a chore. It's just not fun anymore.

Allegedly (1)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816135)

They are going to rework the 20-60 leveling a bit to streamline it.

Personally, I think that's all they need. There's plenty to do for lower level characters, the only problem is that for someone who's new to the game the higher levels, and thus the ability to play with their friends, can seem very far away. So allegedly they are going to quicken the pace of the lower levels some, so that 80 isn't so far away.

Re:The Expansion they wish they made first (1)

BandoMcHando (85123) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817025)

It is probably worth mentioning that Dustwallow Marsh is due to get a rebuild in a coming patch before WotLK, with a new goblin town and a lot of the questing redone, with the stated intention of improving the 35-45 area. (Well, that's what I remember off the top of my head anyway).

To be honest... (1)

UbuntuniX (1126607) | more than 6 years ago | (#20815663)

I don't like TBC in general. I'll admit there are some parts I do like, but really I'd prefer if they'd never released it.

Assimilating all MMO concepts... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20815785)

Race vs Race (Realm vs Realm) combat in wide open areas with the objective of capturing elements was done in games like Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online and even Shadowbane (to name a few). In fact, virtually every concept presented in the article has been done before. The easiest comparison would be DaoC which...
  • provides "Relics" which you can capture, which then provide bonuses to all members of the realm (and owning guild).
  • has keeps and towers can be sieged, walls shattered and ultimately claimed for a given realm and guild.
  • allows players with max level accounts (50) to create alts at 20 (30 on some servers)

I'm glad to see WoW pulling from the better elements of some of the older MMO's. This should lead to some very fun gameplay as DaoC was -very- addicting.

Re:Assimilating all MMO concepts... (1)

SynapseLapse (644398) | more than 6 years ago | (#20820263)

" In fact, virtually every concept presented in the article has been done before. " I don't know if you've noticed this yet, but virtually all of the content in WoW has been done before in MMOs, rpgs, and even muds. What makes Blizzard such a great gaming company is the fact that they took established concepts and create games based off of them with tons of polish and care for the material. Just look back at Blackthorne. It was essentially Prince of Persia/Out Of this World/Flashback with a shotgun, but it was a great game nonetheless.

The expansion decline (5, Insightful)

MLS100 (1073958) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816591)

Every expansion will mean less new players because the investment required to 'catch up' to the rest of the game is growing at a rapid pace. Slowly the rate of old players losing interest will outpace the rate of new players. As the server populations drop, the effect will become even more drastic, since the less people that are playing, the less fun the game becomes for the leftover population (less people in guild, tougher to find people for pick up groups, tougher to find quality replacements for quitting guild members).

I give WoW another one or two expansions before work begins on a new MMO incarnation. Whether it be WoW II or otherwise.

Re:The expansion decline (4, Insightful)

Shados (741919) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816767)

The problem with every MMO out there is that while they always start looking at others trying not to repeat the same mistakes, and initially they often succeed, is that they all fall in the same trap eventually, that is, focusing on "End Game". Most people who get hooked to an MMO, get hooked on the way, not at the end with the so called hardcores running high level events. The -vocal- majority is all there, so if you look at forums, etc, it feels like its all what people want... and its how all MMOs eventually get ruinned.

As you said, the investment to "catch up" become huge, competition becomes fierce, the amount of cheaters go up (to try and catch up), and its just a downward spiral. While its easier to say than do, MMO devs (not just WoW) need to stop thinking that the end game, "long term" players are their main customers. At any given moment, they indeed are, but for the continual longevity of the game, its not these people that will fuel it, its the constant supply of "newbies", so to speak. People rediscovering the trip from level 1.

The games should make it interesting to continually start over, that way new players and old are closer together, mix better, etc. Originally FFXI had that decently, making players continually start back up, mixing up with the new, it was quite the experience. Then somewhere along the line they got caught by the vocal majority and down it went. Its not to say that adding content at the end isn't a good idea: people who are attached to some characters will continue paying longer, but it shouldn't be the main concern like it is in 99% of long lasting MMOs out there.

Re:The expansion decline (3, Insightful)

BandoMcHando (85123) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817143)

Well, in some ways I second this, I'd love to see some new content lower down the levelling ladder, as the old instances and quests can get a little boring after having run through them a lot of times, and they never quite have the same magic redoing them on an alt as they did when you first when in and everything was new and mysterious, but you do need to consider that of the subscribing playerbase, quite a large proportion is at the endgame stage, ok, maybe not Black Temple/Mount Hyjal/etc, but a large proportion are level 70. (Census details [warcraftrealms.com])

I'd actually quite like to see some more stuff to do around the karazhan level, for those who aren't really interested in the 25-man stuff, or who can't commit to the time/organisation required. Zul'Aman could be quite good for this, but we shall have to see how it turns out.

Re:The expansion decline (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817577)

I understand this, but I'm not talking of WoW specifically. I'm talking about MMO design in general. Most MMOs start in a way that is NOT based on end game (obviously), and its how they get popular. Then a bunch of extremely vocal "end gamers" then end up being the turning point of the game, and since they are vocal, and the rest are not, the game ends up shifted about them... I did not play WoW, but I spent several thousand of hours playing just about every other MMOs out there, and it always ends the same way, based on the end game content. Yes, a large portion of the user base is 70, and play on their max level characters: because thats how the game is built and designed. It does NOT have to be that way...

The game could be designed on starting over and over (like FFXI was originally, but fell in the same darn trap), or maybe not based on levels at all, or something. I'm no designer :) But everytime I game ends up "based" around end game, the same thing happen: the same peoples stick around, the same people move on to a new game, and sooner than later, the game goes to ruin. Then a new game comes around realising that mistake, until they too cave in under the pressure of the "hardcores" and make the game yet another Everquest wannabe.

Re:The expansion decline (1)

j0nb0y (107699) | more than 6 years ago | (#20818635)

world of warcraft has a ton of content suitable for casual play.

Tons of 5 man dungeons, once you get through them, you can then do them on heroic. No need for a larger group.

Battlegrounds. Hop into a battleground anytime, the battles are usually over in less than 30 minutes.

Arena. You do need a regular group for these, but the regular group can be as small as two people. Not difficult for casuals to access. The matching system will try to match you against similarly rated groups, so while you may get beat by the occasional hardcore group, you should mostly be matched against other casual groups who you have a chance against.

There's not much need to generate new content for lowbies. New players haven't played the already existing low level content (which in WoW is quite good), and old players for the most part don't mind playing through the content again if they want to level alts (not that they have to play through the exact same content. There are many options in WoW as to what zones you want to level in, and which zones to skip. It would be quite an undertaking to do every quest in the game.)

As far as the "keep adding onto the endgame" trap, WoW hasn't at all fallen into this trap. Why? With each expansion, they are not adding onto the previous endgame content. They are obsoleting the previous endgame content, and adding a completely new endgame. With a new level cap of 80, all that 1337 level 70 gear the hard core raiders worked so hard for will be obsolete. They will level their characters to 80 and start working on getting new 1337 level 80 gear. In Burning Crusade, few people enter the pre-BC endgame dungeons, and those that do just do them for fun. The same will be true of BC endgame dungeons once Wrath is out. The exception is that BC raid dungeons are very tough to get attuned for, so it will be hard to find enough people who are attuned to do them for fun. Most people won't want to bother when they can't get any current endgame relevant loot.

A common complaint I hear from WoW casuals is that the game is "over" for them when their character hits max level. While I say there is a ton of good casual content at the max level, these players obviously disagree. And for them, they now get ten new levels worth of content to play through. I expect 70 - 80 to take about the same amount of time as 60 - 70 did. There will be hardcore players there the first week. Casual players will be content to work through it over the course of a few months. Note that WoW has been out for almost three years. Most casual players, even those who started "late," have characters at or near the level cap.

WoW has a lot of issues. Lack of content for casual players is not one of them. The last expansion added new starting zones and new races. Casual players loved these. I don't expect Blizzard to forget casual players with this expansion either.

I let my subscription lapse in august. I'm constantly tempted to reactivate, but I'm in law school now, so that would be a bad idea. Besides, Hellgate: London is coming out, and that is going to rock =]

Re:The expansion decline (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 6 years ago | (#20818767)

As far as the "keep adding onto the endgame" trap, WoW hasn't at all fallen into this trap. Why? With each expansion, they are not adding onto the previous endgame content. They are obsoleting the previous endgame content, and adding a completely new endgame. With a new level cap of 80, all that 1337 level 70 gear the hard core raiders worked so hard for will be obsolete. They will level their characters to 80 and start working on getting new 1337 level 80 gear
Which is exactly like 90% of other MMOs out there, and what I meant :)

Also, I didn't talk about just casuals. I talked about new players. Not exactly the same thing... The problem with adding stuff at the end (or as you describe it, semantics) is that the population becomes separated. That may be what a lot of people want, but it still ruins games. WoW has actually nothing new to it aside what they -originally- did right, and the fact that they were able to hype it up to a new market... they still do the same mistakes, in the same order.

Re:The expansion decline (1)

fractoid (1076465) | more than 6 years ago | (#20820543)

Which is exactly like 90% of other MMOs out there, and what I meant :)
I believe that the problem he was referring to is not that as the game gets older and expansions come out, newcomers have more levels to get through before hitting 'endgame'. It's more what we have between expansion packs. For instance, heroic dungeons are meant to help players gear up for 10-man raids, but the 'bubble' of raiding players has passed heroic dungeons and it's now impossible to get a run on my server. Same thing with Kara - high end guilds can only get new players by poaching them from up-and-coming guilds (thus destroying said guilds) because they don't run the old raids any more, and so fresh players can't gear up. Expansions are really the only points that new characters can get into the 'endgame' because they're effectively gear resets.

Re:The expansion decline (1)

fractoid (1076465) | more than 6 years ago | (#20819227)

Tons of 5 man dungeons, once you get through them fifteen to twenty times, you can then do them on heroic.
Fixed that for you. The rep grind to get into heroic dungeons is a pain in the ass if you didn't farm the lower level dungeons as you levelled up, and even then you're running for rep long after you've got all the loot you need. And this is set to get worse:

"When is a game more than a game?" says Metzen. "When it's making you feel creepy or elated or heroic -- it's not just a mechanical experience of clicking and looting and killing and raiding. We want to provide as much context and fiction and psychology as possible, at least the first time -- you'll probably roll this dungeon 80 times -- but the first time was a hoot!"
<rantmode>Why the hell would they ever believe that running the same dungeon 80 times is fun? It's not. NOT FUN. NOT BLOODY FUN! Hell, I probably ran UBRS a total of 30-40 times between all my lvl 60 pre-expansion characters, and that was way too much and only because there was nothing else to do. The 15 runs of Steam Vaults that I needed to get my heroic Coilfang key were too much. What could possibly delude an experienced game designer, who is obviously passionate about his job, into thinking that players would enjoy spending over 200 hours in the same damn dungeon? </rantmode>

Re:The expansion decline (2, Insightful)

CyberKender (135686) | more than 6 years ago | (#20816851)

I understand that the v2.3 patch is going to change the leveling from 20-60, speeding it up somehow. While I understand the need for this from the point of view of people who've already made it past 60, it's rather sad that it will mean that all of the raid content below 60 will be even more abandoned than it is now. It would be nice if they came up with some way to make it worthwhile to still do BWL/MC/ZG/AQ/Naxx/etc.

Re:The expansion decline (1)

Kris_J (10111) | more than 6 years ago | (#20817885)

From what my guild's high-level (purpled) tanks tell me, the first thing that would need to be done would be to reduce the durability hit simply from being the tank. I'm told that an epicced-out level 70 tank, even if they don't die, will get a repair bill higher than the amount they make from being on the run.

This fact alone seems to be more than enough to make the old-skool raid instances into ghost towns.

Re:The expansion decline (1)

umbrellasd (876984) | more than 6 years ago | (#20818481)

They should start everyone at 60, but that would obsolete everything before the first expansion, so they'd have to rebalance those areas. That would be pretty fun, because it would be great to have an actual reason to run something like LBRS or UBRS or Naxxramas even after you are into the 60-80 zone.

A better solution is to just focus on the content and challenge (strategy, tactics, etc.) instead of: expansion = current level + 10. If it's always about level, new players don't want to play, and old players have a smaller and smaller part of the game that's entertaining for them. I think it's just very dumb and sad that the most widely played MMOG in the world has such a limiting design.

Re:The expansion decline (1)

rpillala (583965) | more than 6 years ago | (#20818641)

Blizzard has had open postings [blizzard.com] for people to work on "next-generation" MMO development for some time now. Since they certainly can't think of World of Warcraft as "next-generation," I think you're right. Personally I'm hoping for a Diablo game.

Re:The expansion decline (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20819377)

The thing is, people just don't lose interest that fast. At least not in wow. People who've played for years will still feel thrilled by something new, even if its just a new town or something. Expansions keep players in, moreso than limiting player intake. I just don't see it dying that fast. Also, new expansions let Blizzard sell the base game in a package that costs a wee bit more than separate purchases. Capitalism at its best: ripping people off at every possible opportunity.

Itemization? (1)

dczyz (239366) | more than 6 years ago | (#20818041)

The one I question I have is what will they do on itemization. BC broke the progression rate that they had been at for 1-60. (and I do not count the tier 5/6 stuff)

Morale questions? (1)

dczyz (239366) | more than 6 years ago | (#20818159)

Okay, two questions. Lol

What moral questions does WOW have? That is one of the flaws in it. You only can progress - quests are complete or not - you do not have alternative choices.

The only thing even close to a moral question was the one to support the pirates or not in SV. And those that did never had any progression down that path after the initial quest chain.

Re:Morale questions? (1)

fractoid (1076465) | more than 6 years ago | (#20819715)

Well, the only morale question is "can I be bothered levelling yet another character?" :P

But there were a few morally dubious quests in the game, especially from some of the undead questgivers. Take the one where the undead woman is angry that her neighbours survived the plague unscathed and still have a running farm - you have to head off and kill them. Or the 'new plague' questline where you end up poisoning a bunch of captives (Geneva convention anyone?) And another in Hillsbrad where you have to hunt down and kill some defecting undead - read the research journal that Warden Belamoore drops, without this quest in the storyline there would be some real chance of reconciliation between Forsaken and Human factions. They never adequately finished that quest chain though, I wonder what the artifacts they stole were for... regardless, on my undead character I did all of the above quests, but my orc refused on moral grounds.

Re:Morale questions? (1)

SynapseLapse (644398) | more than 6 years ago | (#20820295)

I think the parent was more looking for quest choices rather than morale issues per se. Think of some of the quest choices from Ultima, Deus Ex or Oblivion. This person wants me to go to kill this bad guy in the next town. But then I get over there and discover he's not actually a bad guy. Do I continue my quest anyway? Or go back and kill the original person?

Re:Morale questions? (1)

Fulcrum of Evil (560260) | more than 6 years ago | (#20820503)

If you hadn't noticed, the undead aren't very nice. It's refreshing to see some more variety than three flavors of boy scout to choose from, even if I don't go for it.

Re:Morale questions? (1)

fractoid (1076465) | more than 6 years ago | (#20820553)

I always thought the Magram/Gelkis quest chains, or the ability to gain Bloodsail rep, were wonderful. I wish they'd do more areas like that, have two zones that you start off neutral with, and one faction become friendly and the other hostile by gaining/losing rep. That's what reputation SHOULD be used for, not as a second XP bar that lets you use some piece of gear when you 'ding'.

Imagine a neutral battle ground between Tuskarr and Nerub, where the faction you befriended determined what side you were on. That would be awesome! Or imagine grinding up your Undercity rep past 'unfriendly' to allow your human character to enter unmolested (by guards at least). So much scope, wasted! :(
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  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
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