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MS's Hilf Named Windows Server Marketer

kdawson posted more than 6 years ago | from the lengthening-the-lightning-rod dept.

Microsoft 98

netbuzz writes "The director of Microsoft's Open Source Lab, Bill Hilf, has added a new duty — general manager of Windows server marketing — to his already established role of shepherding the company's efforts to have open source software peacefully coexist with Microsoft technologies. What the company calls a 'natural evolution' of Hilf's job description may not be considered quite so natural among segments of the open source community that eye every Microsoft move with suspicion if not hostility." Bill Hilf answered Slashdot's questions two years back and sounded quite friendly to OSS; yet at other times he has come off like a hardcore Microsoftie.

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acronyms (4, Funny)

User 956 (568564) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905641)

MS's Hilf's Named Windows Server Marketer

Ok, I know what MILF stands for, but HILF? You've lost me.

Re:acronyms (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20905671)

I'm leaning towards either "hacker" or "hamster". Since it's Microsoft, he's probably a rodent.

Re:acronyms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20906007)

You want to have sex w/a rodent?

Ewwww (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906365)

Either way, that's gross. Back to 4chan with you!

Re:acronyms (0)

cp.tar (871488) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905699)

To cut the long story short: I don't think you'd like to fuck him.

So just wave and smile...

Re:acronyms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20905707)

It's a recursive acronym, kind of like GNU.

It stands for Hilf I'd Like to Fuhh ... nevermind.

Re:acronyms (0, Troll)

CoreDump01 (558675) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905709)

Worst topic ever.

Re:acronyms (0)

CheddarHead (811916) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905713)

Hermaphrodites?

"Hardcore Microsoftie" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20905715)

Ya man, totally!

How dare he not rage against the company he works for.

Re:acronyms (1, Funny)

ianare (1132971) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905729)

Horse I'd Like to Fuck ?

Re:acronyms (4, Funny)

Digitus1337 (671442) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905773)

Maybe this T-shirt could shed some light on it [threadpit.com] .

A message from Miguel de Icaza (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20905791)

Dear Slashdot community,
Wow, this is awesome! I'm glad Bill Hilf was promoted to this exciting new position at Microsoft! It is my hope that Bill Hilf will be able to help open source users synergize open source products with Microsoft's awesome, innovative Windows Server technologies. Well, I better go back to putting up posters of Steve Ballmer on my wall while I wait for my Windows gnome port to finish compiling in Visual Studio .NET C++!

Sincerely,
Miguel de Icaza
Microsoft marketing contractor and part time developer
--
I wish my sig were a picture of Steve Ballmer or Bill Gates!

Re:acronyms (0, Offtopic)

mezron (132274) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905803)

Hey I'd Like to Fart....

got nothin else sorry

H.I.L.F. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20906003)

Hilf
I'd
Like to
Falafel

Re:acronyms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20906223)

Bill is no doubt, a HILF.

Re:acronyms (1)

mrbluze (1034940) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906513)

Ok, I know what MILF stands for, but HILF? You've lost me.

Crikes, if they had MILFs to market servers, that's what I'd call a service!

Re:acronyms (1)

rts008 (812749) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906979)

It may be beyond me to answer your question about 'HILF's', but this is where I ended up upon completion of cleaning my Logitech TrackMan Marble mouse ball...Grhhh!

I feel somewhat cheated that my mouse only has one ball, but so do I, so we get along well.

Since I'm here tho'- I LUV MILF's! I even married the MILF I met! Where else can you get a one-balled BJ without going to a scary pr0n site?
HILF's....mmmm, maybe 'Heterosexuals I'd Lovfe To Fsck?

But never would '* like to fsck' and Windows would come up in the same sentence from me.
  More than likely it would be 'In Soviet Wherever, MS fscks YOU!

Re:acronyms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20907905)

Highly Intelligent Life Form...

Re:acronyms (1)

Z00L00K (682162) | more than 6 years ago | (#20907921)

Anybody that has read Ursula LeGuin [ursulakleguin.com] knows what a HILF [passagen.se] is.

Re:acronyms (1)

kinglink (195330) | more than 6 years ago | (#20913005)

The problem is there's no way anyone on Slashdot is willing to believe a HILF according to that site, is working at Microsoft.

Re:acronyms (2, Funny)

mcgrue (104691) | more than 6 years ago | (#20908607)

Husband.

Uhhhh (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20905719)

Why is this under Linux? Also, why does the one of the first and most popular OS's not have a slashdot section?

Re:Uhhhh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20905789)

Also, why does the one of the first and most popular OS's not have a slashdot section?

Windows one of the "first OS's"? Are you joking?

Re:Uhhhh (1)

gujo-odori (473191) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905981)

Joking? I certainly hope so. Windows doesn't come even close to making that cut, even if we restrict the scope to "One of the first personal computer OSes." Even the first version of Windows (which I have actually scene with my own eyes, running on a PC-XT, and which may be the reason I need corrective lenses today ) was a relative latecomer among personal computer OSes. Well before Windows there was CPM, Amiga, Apple, DOS, and many others.

One of the most popular OSes? Sure, at least for the "market share" definition of popular (for the definition of popular as "well liked" it might be another story).

did you miss (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20905863)

the BIll Gatus of Borg icon?

What's with all the fud? (0, Flamebait)

Alexx K (1167919) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905777)

Microsoft software can co-exist just fine with other open source software! Quit spreading fud!

Of course, Windows Server, in particular the upcoming Windows Server 2008, co-exists better with open source software better than any Windows version to date!

Re:What's with all the fud? (2, Interesting)

webmaster404 (1148909) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905927)

Although I don't know much about the Server edition MS software does not work well with OSS software. First off, playing of Ogg s are impossible without installing a third party codec (And its not patent-restricted like mp3) Second, Windows doesn't show Linux drives, yet Linux can see FAT16, FAT32, NTFS, ETC. Linux can also play WMAs (provided you installed the codecs) Linux can open up .zip files while Windows can't open .tar files. Linux recognizes many different formats by default, unlike Windows (Windows can't even recognize an ISO by default...) MS has done too much trying to make Linux look like a small project, yet Windows (And OSX) recognize that there is competition and can detect the filetypes and such. As I said though, this might not be true about Server 2008, this is based off of XP and Vista Windows editions.

Re:What's with all the fud? (1)

Alexx K (1167919) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906047)

I sure hope you aren't a webmaster for any humour-related sites.

Re:What's with all the fud? (0, Troll)

normal_guy (676813) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906075)

Good thing the summary and article are about server software, which has nothing to do with Ogg or various compression formats. Any serious lifting of Ogg or Zip/tar on either server platform will need some serious custom development regardless of what's built-in. Some post up the thread hit the nail on the head.

To implement a Kerberos/ldap/sso system of even a fraction of Active Directory's complexity is prohibitively expensive on Linux, at least in my enterprise experience.

Re:What's with all the fud? (1)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906639)

To implement a Kerberos/ldap/sso system of even a fraction of Active Directory's complexity is prohibitively expensive on Linux, at least in my enterprise experience.

If you're just setting up sso for Linux or Mac clients, it's easy.

Setting up sso for a hetrogenous network including Windows clients can seem complex for a novice, largely because Microsoft broke Kerberos so that while Windows clients can speak both Kerberos and LDAP, they only know how to speak them at the same time when talking to an AD server.

Having said that, it's not THAT difficult once you've had a bit of experience (outside of Windows). What specifically were you having problems with?

Re:What's with all the fud? (1)

aldousd666 (640240) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906783)

Now lets don't make this into a HOWTO article; however, yes it can and indeed has been done, I have an army of redhat boxes joined to the AD as actual domain accounts, and they use KRB auth (and no they don't use Winbindd - that's NOT the same thing.) That being said, you have to extend the AD schema to get the Internix junk working properly (adding the uid fields and default gid) with a NIS/YP domain in reverse. So I'd say they're the ones lacking in bits and pieces. Kudos to them (MS) for giving the NFS client as a built in component (optional component) of Vista though, it's one thing that XP should have had. (Don't even get me started about how much I hate NVidia on Vista, that's another story. Most of you probably haven't heard the debate of it, because you don't ever think about vista; however I have to know the whole field so I am currently taking it for a spin, and while it has some moments of goodness, mostly it's just slow, flickery and pretty damned sucky, especially on a laptop.)

Re:What's with all the fud? (1)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 6 years ago | (#20907223)

Now lets don't make this into a HOWTO article

But isn't the FOSS community damned if we do, damned if we don't in this circumstance?

I know there's hundreds of HOWTOs on the web, but if I'd suggested that, I'd have an equal number of replies screaming "Telling people to RTFM is why Linux will never be ready for granny's server farm".

Besides, imagine how much it's costing normal_guy's company in CALs and other licensing fees. In most other professions, people would be sacked for losing their companies so much money. We need to help the guy out here.

Now, I know it's Slashbot groupthink to just accept that AD is the only way of doing sso, but look at the costs of going down that path. With just a few hours of learning, you can save years of fees.

I mean, I love Windows 2003 server for little single-server offices where the group self-supports and people only know Windows, but you have to admit, it's horrendously expensive to scale up.

Re:What's with all the fud? (1)

aldousd666 (640240) | more than 6 years ago | (#20910711)

I actually wouldn't expect that AD would be the de facto choice of anyone in the slashdot crowd :) Scaling up an environment based on AD is silly if your entire audience of users are on linux boxes. You could setup an ldap and a kerberos realm if you wanted to but I am not aware of (doesn't mean anything really, it could still be there) any system that marries the two systems nicely other than the AD.

Re:What's with all the fud? (1)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 6 years ago | (#20911331)

You could setup an ldap and a kerberos realm if you wanted to but I am not aware of (doesn't mean anything really, it could still be there) any system that marries the two systems nicely other than the AD.

Novell's eDirectory [novell.com] does that.

If you're working in the big end of town, it scales a lot better than AD as well.

Re:What's with all the fud? (1)

aldousd666 (640240) | more than 6 years ago | (#20913961)

yeah, I did know that, I just don't use it so I didn't think of it ;) Novell actually has a lot of things that are nicer about it, from the demo's I've seen, but I haven't used it since netware way back.

Re:What's with all the fud? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20906795)

"Windows can't open .tar files."

stop fudding buddy. Winrar even opens gzips.
So you have a package manager that forces what the coalition of mystical developers decrees should be the version your distro uses. If it was windows, people would complain that it was "monopolistic".

Re:What's with all the fud? (1)

Alexx K (1167919) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906867)

He was saying that Windows *itself* didn't support tar files. You need to install a third-party tool. Pretty much all Linux distrobutions include the tar(1) program.

Re:What's with all the fud? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20911083)

Although I don't know much about the Server edition MS software does not work well with OSS software. First off, playing of Ogg s are impossible without installing a third party codec (And its not patent-restricted like mp3) Second, Windows doesn't show Linux drives, yet Linux can see FAT16, FAT32, NTFS, ETC. Linux can also play WMAs (provided you installed the codecs)

wait, so if you need to install codecs for linux to play a file, thats perfectly fine, however, if windows needs a third party codec, well, they are just out to screw you?

Re:What's with all the fud? (2, Interesting)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 6 years ago | (#20907583)

Of course, Windows Server, in particular the upcoming Windows Server 2008, co-exists better with open source software better than any Windows version to date!


What the fuck does this even mean?

Re:What's with all the fud? (1)

Alexx K (1167919) | more than 6 years ago | (#20918421)

I don't see why people seem to have so much trouble grasping this. Perhaps I need to explain in depth "what the fuck this means."

If you actually *read* the summary, let alone the article, and weren't just clicking on random links, you would know that Bill Hilf, the director of Microsoft's open source lab, is now the general manager of Windows server marketing. Do you see where the joke is now?

The bottom line: Do not take this post literally. I don't *seriously* believe that Windows Server co-exists with open source software better than any other version of Windows. I can't believe I even had to write this comment in the first place.

Migrating to Linux? (1, Insightful)

speaker of the truth (1112181) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905801)

Given the failure that Microsoft Server is, could it be migrating to an OSS alternative?

Windows Server a failure? (1, Interesting)

gcnaddict (841664) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905887)

Active Directory has to be one of the single most important things ever implemented by Microsoft. I can't think of a single coorporation that I have worked for which doesn't use it.

Just stating a point.

Re:Migrating to Linux? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20908715)

"Given the failure that Microsoft Server is"

Do you have any facts to back that ? We see the opposit, more and more small and medium sized companies are throwing out the alternatives, replacing it with Windows 2003. Small Bussiness Server is selling like there was no tomorrow....

Re:Migrating to Linux? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20911333)

Insightful? Microsoft Server is a failure? Man, when people will face Microsoft like it IS the dominating company in the industry?

Re:Migrating to Linux? (1)

secPM_MS (1081961) | more than 6 years ago | (#20914277)

On what basis do you claim that Microsoft Server is a failure? It is certainly true that Windows 2000 Server was not as reliable as it should have been. Microsoft learned and fixed things. Windows Server SP1 is very solid and capable.

Market results don't show that Microsoft server is a failure. You may not like it, but that does not make it a failure. Personally, I prefer BSD to Linux, but Linux has more mindshare in the OSS community.

I have been running betas of LongHorn server for over a year as my notebook OS. I have found that Server is reliable, stable, and runs well on relatively low powered hardware (my earlier notebook, 2.5 years old, on which I ran server had a 2 GHz processor with 2 GBytes of RAM. I always run in maximal battery life mode and I found the system very responsive).

Is your issue OSS first, or is it solve your organization's or customer needs first? The first is an idealogical goal. Most businesses are primarily concerned with the solution of their problems, as is appropriate. In a rather large fraction of the market, Microsoft offers products that are cost effective solutions for various problems. It is appropriate to consider them on their merits within their context, without allowing your ideological viewpoints to drive your solution.

It makes sense (3, Insightful)

astrashe (7452) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905823)

Marketing Windows servers involves a lot of convincing people not to run Linux instead. Knowing about Linux probably helps.

Re:It makes sense (0, Flamebait)

renegadesx (977007) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905955)

It's like the creationists.

Spreading FUD form the outside doesn't work so they try spreading it from the inside like creationists try to destroy science by sounding scientific. It works on those that have less knowlege about the facts.

Its interesting that they employ the same tactics

On a side note... I have a suggestion on the "Bill Borg" pic, replace him with the CATS from All Your Base

Re:It makes sense (4, Insightful)

Locutus (9039) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906127)

there are people who still think that Bill Hilf was hired to educate Microsoft on how to work with GNU/Linux and open source software and they are fools. He was hired to educate Microsoft on how to market Microsoft Windows and Microsoft software over GNU/Linux and OSS. He built a lab running all kinds of OSS project and they evaluated what was good, bad, ugly and how Microsoft software could be marketed against that which they learned. Bill Hilf's roll as marketing guy for Windows Server was always the plan and makes complete sense given his initial role.

So stop kidding yourselves into thinking Microsoft wants to work with GNU/Linux and OSS. They want it gone and they want everyone using only Microsoft software. There is not half way. There is no interoperability. Those are marketing lies as they continue to find ways to keep customers on their software.

And Bill Hilf is no friend of any OSS by virtue of who he accepted a job from and what that job is. IMO.

LoB

Re:It makes sense (1)

jorghis (1000092) | more than 6 years ago | (#20907061)

I think that you are mostly correct about his role, but MS does try to attract people to develop OSS for windows. They arent stupid, they know that its important to have all the applications available for windows that are also available for other OSes. Bill Hilf has said this a number of times. I guess there is the possiblity that he is lieing and he doesnt want people developing software for windows. But does that really make any sense?

They do compete with some of those applications. (and yes, they have done some shady things with interoperability in the past with the apps that they compete with) But that doesnt mean that they dont want people using OSS on windows. A good example here is firefox, although MS tries to get people to use IE they have been very friendly and supportive of firefox developers.

Re:It makes sense (1)

Locutus (9039) | more than 6 years ago | (#20907331)

yup, they are not dumb. Having WAMP, and the like, gives them plenty of space to keep GNU/Linux out of the picture at Windows shops looking at LAMP. WAMP keeps them on Windows and allows Microsofts marketing to move them piece by piece off of WAMP and probably push MS .Net stacks.

Microsoft is getting a fight on the server with GNU/Linux and so they've got to do anything they can to keep Windows on the hardware and as soon as they loose Windows on the hardware, they've lost everything else on those PC's since Microsoft does not sell software for anything but Windows.

LoB

Re:It makes sense (1)

rtb61 (674572) | more than 6 years ago | (#20907465)

That is the reality. M$ knows an open source operating system will win, it is inevitable, it makes simple economic sense over the long term as the amount of change required in an OS has become simple refinements and driver upgrades.

If M$ can not make the transition to an a open source operating system, they will wither and die on the vine. The two reasons of course, no transition to an open source operating system and M$ office has no place to go and the other reason MSN just bleeds money

Consider what other companies manage to achieve with similar web portals. MSN is about the best web portal (it is better than yahoo and way better than google), the real problem is, M$ chokes the chicken by running too many adds and driving users away add to that of course M$'s anti-customer brand image, (FU)DRM did not help (their management culture makes those poor decisions inevitable).

So Hilf is the marketing bridge backup for when ballmer and vista fails, and ballmer is publicly sacrificed in order to rebrand M$, likely 'MicroSoft' will disappear and MSN (just the initials) will take precedence.

of course (1)

Pasajero (164368) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905849)

this gives a whole new meaning to "HILF's i'd like to fsck"

If at first you don't succeed ... (5, Funny)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905963)

> "Bill Hilf, has added a new duty -- general manager of Windows server marketing -- to his already established role of shepherding the company's efforts to have open source software peacefully coexist with Microsoft technologies"

So, let's analyse this. Hilf failed at getting open source software to "peacefully coexist" with Microsoft shite. His "reward" is to take on Windows server marketing - an area where open source beats Microsoft in terms of quality, TCO, initial price, and performance.

So Hilf is being punished, right?

Re:If at first you don't succeed ... (2, Interesting)

Locutus (9039) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906255)

neither punished or rewarded, just that he's the best person for the job because of the reasons you stated. He knows the OSS they are fighting against and therefore, he knows how the Windows Server marketing should be spun to leverage what they have. You know, integration with MS Office, nice point-click GUI's and that kind of stuff.

Hilf didn't fill his MS Linux Lab with all kinds of OSS just because he likes Linux and OSS. It was to find their weaknesses and how to spin that into Microsofts strengths. As head of Windows Server marketing, we'll soon see where he feels Microsoft can tell the masses how Windows is better.

Oh, and he never was hired to make Windows interoperate with Linux. He's a Microsoft employee for crying out loud. His job is to sell Windows, protect Window, believe in Windows and not change Windows to allow Linux and OSS to fit on the server anywhere. One Linux server in a Windows shop is deadly to Microsoft and they know this. Hilf was hired to control this. First through education by letting Microsoft employees know what they were fighting against. And secondly, by controlling marketing directly and steering the Microsoft Server marketing people to take advantage of the holes he's learned by running OSS in the MS Linux Lab for the last 3+ years. IMO.

LoB

Re:If at first you don't succeed ... (0, Troll)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906359)

Oh, I agree 100% his job is to just spin the FUD. That Microsoft had to resort to Hilf shows how lacking in insight they are. They could have gotten better spinmeisters here, just by running the anti-microsoft stuff through a script with a few regexes.

They're trying to cover their bases, but its more like a retreat than anything else, because when you have a virtual monopoly, you're your own worst competitor. the person you're trying to steal sales from is yourself - youhave to convince customers that the "wonderful stuff" they bought a few years ago is now "a piece of outdated crap".

That gets predictable, boring, and starts corroding trust. After a while, you ARE your own worst enemy, and people WANT to see you fail. The rest, as they say, is history. We're seeing it now with Vista. Despite Microsofts' claims, Vienna (the next OS after Vista) will be even worse. They either have to break compatibility with the past (in which case, users have little no reason to stick with Microsoft) or just do "more of the same", on an increasingly untenable code base.

This is a rear-guard action, but you can stick a fork in Microsofts' business model. It might not be done yet, but its getting close.

Lacking in insight? (1)

mgkimsal2 (200677) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906827)

That Microsoft had to resort to Hilf shows how lacking in insight they are.

What? Given that Hilf has been running the open source stuff there for awhile, and has been the central point for open source @ MS, he's probably the best person there is to know - really know - where Windows is and isn't strong. That knowledge will both help the short term Windows messaging - advertising, etc. - but given his new position, that will have to have a greater impact on what makes it back to Windows developers as well. Ergo the known weaknesses will get addressed.

It's not just "spin" if it's the truth. Windows is the best platform for certain types of situations, whether that task is running specific commercial or open source software. That 'best' is a subjective measurement which has both emotion and short and long term ROI wrapped up in it, and is different for everyone out there.

This is not a 'lack of insight' on MS' part - this is probably one of the most insightful things they've done in a long time.

Re:Lacking in insight? (3, Insightful)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906999)

If they really wanted to hear something insightful, they'd get the "enemy camp" in for a truth-fest.

The simple fact is, they don't want to hear the truth, which starts with the average Windows user HATING Microsoft. If you think linux fans are bad, try someone who is forced to use Windows on a daily basis, when they have a Mac at home.

But forget the MacHeads. The average Microsoft customer doesn't use Windows because they like it - they use Windows because it came with their computer. They bought it, they paid for it, they can't return it for a refund, so they're darned well going to use it!

That's the point about unbundling (to bring this back on-topic).

As for Hilf, he doesn't "get" open source. He's the guy who said open source was dead in 2007, because "even Linus is paid to write code" - when in fact, that shows that open source is quite the opposite of dead - its so useful that people are being paid to write code and give it away.

That last scares the sh*t out of Microsoft - that businesses have found it profitable to give away the very stuff that Microsoft charges for.

Hilf doesn't "get" that, so he's not going to be an effective counterweight.

Re:If at first you don't succeed ... (1)

BuR4N (512430) | more than 6 years ago | (#20908189)

"Windows server marketing - an area where open source beats Microsoft in terms of quality, TCO, initial price, and performance."

Windows server market grows allot for MS, especially trough their small business server (SBS) offering.

Re:If at first you don't succeed ... (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 6 years ago | (#20910801)

Please read what I wrote - open source has been proven to beat Microsofts' servers in terms of quality, TCO, initial price, and performance.

That Microsoft is able to still push through to SMBs is only because of their vendor lockin and customer inertai. It has zero to do with the points I make, and is entirely due to their ability to get a lock on the market in the first place via bundling.

Embrace, Extetend, Exterminate (4, Insightful)

Zombie Ryushu (803103) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905985)

Windows Server do not at all co-exist with with Linux or any other type of server. Virtually all interoperability of Windows Servers and Linux Clients, or Linux Servers and Windows Clients is done through Reverse engineering of Windows SMB. So that makes Samba absolutely indespensible.

If you have have a Linux Server and a Heterogeneous or even one Windows client, you have no choice but to run Samba because Windows only talks to Windows.

Now before you go hauling off talking about Kerberos Realm mode:
That mode is completely useless. With Kerberos Realm mode, you have no Domain functionality, your machine is reverted to Workgroup status. No roaming profiles, no policies, no drive mapping scripts. So repeat after me, "Kerberos Realm Mode is fucking Horrible!" and nobody uses it.

Now. So lets say you go the Samba Domain Controller Route. In fact, lets go ideal and say you have someone who really knows what they are doing. Samba Domain Controller With Kerberos, NT4 SP6 Policy Editor Running under Wine, with LDAP Backend, either with OpenLDAP or Fedora DS.

Well.

Your Linux Clients work just fine. They login, get account data out of LDAP, Authenticate with Kerberos, maybe use AFS or Samba with Kerberos Authentication. (That works only for Linux boxen under Samba 3.0)

Your Windows Clients? See a bizzare Hellscape of situations where it looks like its surrounded on all sides by "Windows NT 4.9" Servers that all claim to be primary domain controllers. The Kerberos mode? They ignore that and fall back to NTLMv2. They can't even tell the Kerberos or LDAP Servers are even there. Still pretty decent interoperability.

lets take the reverse.

Well, Windows Servers will run AD, thats all they will do, thats all they have done.

Windows clients, GPO, all that shit. Linux Clients? Well. You can try the "Services For Unix" method with Kerberos and LDAP trick, but its doubtful that will work. Your best chance again, Samba with Winbind. Linux has too reverse engineer everything. Microsoft policy is very is not Embrace, Extend, Exterminate with Windows Servers. Its just Exterminate. To Microsoft, the only good Linux User is a Dead Linux User.

Re:Embrace, Extetend, Exterminate (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906283)

"If you have have a Linux Server and a Heterogeneous or even one Windows client, you have no choice but to run Samba because Windows only talks to Windows. "

Not quite true. You can always use the modern equivalent of sneakernet - USB keychains or rewriteable dvds - to move data back and forth. A lot better than actually connecting a Windows box to a local network.

Or you can transfer everything through ftp and http.

Heck, there used to be programs out there that would make an ftp connection look like a local file share (don't know if there still are - haven't used windows in a LONG time).

Re:Embrace, Extetend, Exterminate (3, Interesting)

Zombie Ryushu (803103) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906321)

The whole point however is that the days of installing the Client32 Novell Libraries in Windows is over. Nobody wants to do that anymore. People wants Domains. I have a Linux Domain at my house and two Linux Domain controllers. Its just easier if the whole network is interconnected and attempting to Alter the Linux Client Software to talk to anything else is extremely dangerous.

Re:Embrace, Extetend, Exterminate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20907385)

and attempting to Alter the Linux Client Software to talk to anything else is extremely dangerous.

Umm, isn't this what you face with Microsoft software?

Re:Embrace, Extetend, Exterminate (1)

Dishevel (1105119) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906335)

On the money brother.

Corporate Musical Chairs (3, Insightful)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 6 years ago | (#20905995)

Microsoft's execs have no expertise in the subject of the departments they direct (except maybe legal or marketing). They are expert in being executives. I once met for a long time with the MS "Chief Security Officer", in my capacity advising the NYC City Council (legislature). He knew nothing about security, not even the recent history of MS (in)security under his predecessor. And I've watched how MS shuffles its execs.

All that the person in the job needs to know is their marching orders from where the only real MS strategy comes from: the mutual work of the (real) geniuses in legal and marketing. That's all MS is good at, and all it needs to be good at. They need to know how to talk to the other execs in their job, and the inevitable lawyers from other companies and the government, and marketers from everywhere.

So he's a "server marketer". It means nothing that he's also an "open source exec". All that means is that he's going to meetings about "open source" and "servers", which we already know since MS has a major strategic alliance with Novell over Linux, and Novell just won proof that Unix belongs to Novell, and *nix runs the only competition to MS servers. But I wouldn't expect this guy to know that until he takes the job.

Re:Corporate Musical Chairs (1)

jorghis (1000092) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906165)

Wow, what vitirol. It is hard to imagine that a city council would take your seriously talking like that.

Of course most execs wont be familiar with every detail of every patch that went out years before they took a project over. This isnt just microsoft, this is any company.

This isnt necessarily a bad thing. Microsoft has had several VPs that were criticized for being too technical and not business/leadership oriented enough. James Allchin comes to mind, brilliant engineer in charge of Vista, look how bad that turned out in terms of delays, marketing failures, adoption by customers, etc. Being a supercoder who has a lot of technical knowledge doesnt necessarily make you a kickass manager/executive.

Frankly, I think your characterization of MS execs is way off. They have lots of highly technical executives. It shouldnt come as a surprise that the guy they sent to talk to a city council leaned more heavily towards marketing.

Re:Corporate Musical Chairs (1, Flamebait)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906487)

Vitriol? It's the truth. And that's what the City Council, like the rest of my serious clients over many years, have me around for. For years, since I helped them become a full committee, with a budget and oversight of NYC's huge IT department.

What do you know of MS execs? Have you ever even met one directly? I bet not. I have, more than one, and this guy was the Chief Security Officer for the entire MS corporation. What about NYC? Have you ever even been here? Been in a City Council committee meeting, whether public or private? Do you even understand that "a city council" like NYC is responsible for security for 10 million people every day, including the UN, 3 giant airports, the country's largest seaport, a $50 BILLION annual city budget? I didn't ask for a "supercoder", but someone who knew something meaningful about security, like what MS did about it six months before under his predecessor would have been reassuring from their Chief Security Officer.

I say you're just talking out of your ass, from someplace tiny that you think is big and "serious", because you don't know what "big and serious" really is. That's not just "vitriol". That's what you get when you push naive BS like that, contradicting a New Yorker like me, who knows the truth, and knows that you don't. Just don't bother telling me that you're in marketing or something like that. Even if you're really a "supercoder".

Re:Corporate Musical Chairs (1)

jorghis (1000092) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906615)

Calm down, I am not trying to troll you.

Yes, I have met MS executives before. They were all technically oriented ones. (I have probably never met the marketing types that you have) No I have not met anyone on the new york city council before. No, I do not work in marketing, I am an engineer. No, I do not work for Microsoft. But really, why should what I do matter? Your entire post is based on speculation about what I do, as though that is actually relevant to the issue at hand here.

The point I am trying to make is that it should not come as a surprise that the people they send out to talk to customers are mostly sales and marketing types. They do have a lot of very technical people in leadership positions, but they spend most of their time doing R&D related activities back in Redmond. Based on my personal experience, your generalization that all the MS execs are marketers who know nothing about the technical side is wrong.

I am curious though, what is it exactly that these marketing exec types didnt know that horrified you so much?

Re:Corporate Musical Chairs (0, Flamebait)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 6 years ago | (#20909223)

You "calm down" or whatever you need to do to read my post properly.

I met at length with Microsoft's Chief Security Officer (as I'm telling you for the third time now). He knew nothing about security. Not even what MS had done about security under his immediate predecessor, which included that BS about "every single MS programmer taking all of January off to do nothing but secure Windows and their apps".

This was in 2004, in NYC, where he was meeting with the NYC legislature (advised by me). We are responsible for security at a level of rigor matched by few governments other than the US Federal government, which also depends on us. So we were, naturally, appalled.

The CSO is not a "marketing exec". Unless it's Microsoft, evidently. Which goes a long way towards explaining why MS is insecure.

Moreover, I used to work closely with one of CMP Publications' top VPs, the one who published _Dr Dobbs Journal_. In the 1990s, he used to help me get gigs in Silicon Valley. And I used to tag along on his meetings with MS execs and other staff (he used to meet with Gates in Redmond several times a month). The entire crew was like that. Some were smart, some were geeks. But they were always there because of either their marketing or legal assets, or (more often, like any other big corp) because they were social animals who could keep their jobs and rise to the top in the group of humans, regardless of what they worked on.

Which is the same as most any big corp. But still one reason that it's dysfunctional, as they all are, except to make lots of money, despite an inferior product. In Microsoft's case, its their monopoly that makes it all go. Which is why they perpetuate their business success with marketing and legal minds, rather than experts in, say, security.

But that's OK for them. Not for customers like, say, New York City.

And people telling me that it is OK for NYC to get the marketing gladhand instead of the security expert are not OK with me. Get it straight: this stuff matters. People's lives are on the line. You think you can flip it off... that's why you are just a MS customer, and I am the NYC City Council's tech advisor.

Re:Corporate Musical Chairs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20910735)

Nice rant.

Except for the detail that Microsoft did not have an excecutive with the title chief security officer in 2004. The last one was in 2002. Since then the title has been chief security strategist and then vice president for trustworthy computing.

If you told a more believable story I think that I could be convinced that you just remember the job title incorrectly. Do you seriously expect people to believe that the guy in charge of a security push didnt know it occured? Also, you bolded that non existant job title 3 times. I think that you sir, are full of crap.

Re:Corporate Musical Chairs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20915681)

Give up, maybe? You lost this argument. Just telling you in case you haven't realized it yet.

Re:Corporate Musical Chairs (0, Redundant)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 6 years ago | (#20919647)

Maybe his exact title wasn't exactly "Chief Security Officer", but that was his job. And it might have been early 2005, for that matter. It was 2-3 years ago, and he didn't impress me to remember much about him except that he was a total lightweight in a job that demanded a heavyweight. Everything I said is true. I really don't care whether you believe me.

oblig (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20905999)

HAIL HILFER!

External Observations (1)

graviplana (1160181) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906015)

As a longtime reader of /. and follower of this issue between MS products vs. Linux, I have to say that it is OBVIOUS that MS wants Linux to "go away". I firmly believe that we are witnessing Embrace, Extend and Extinguish in operation. I really am not trying to troll. It just seems that way. Actions speak louder than words. I feel that the GNU/Linux folks need to be very wary of Novell, Suse, Mono, .Net/MS, etc. Keep it free, keep it open! /2cents

some marketing ideas Hilf has been working on (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20906085)

Springtime for Windows and Microsoft;
Winter for Linux and Sun.

You're either with us, or you're with the free software hippies.

There's lots of things you can get for free - your neighbor's kid's pet iguana for instance.

Integrated innovation was good enough for Henry Ford, it should be good enough for you and me.

I know a lot of the guys heading up the free software projects. They're actually pretty good technically ... almost as good as the hotshots we've been hiring out of college.

Anakin Skywalker (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20906091)

Bill Hilf is Anakin Skywalker.

Do you people live in the real world? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20906247)

This battle in the server room has been going on forever.

One thing in the war has become clear: Windows will never own the server room. Linux will never own the desktop.

Business will have heterogeneous systems forever. Hell, any business of any size, around for any length of time, has mainframes and oddball systems from the 60s and 70s they still support.

I bet these same types of Slashdot stories will be as fresh in ten years as they were ten years back.
 

Re:Do you people live in the real world? (1)

Sudheer_BV (1049540) | more than 6 years ago | (#20908675)

"One thing in the war has become clear: Windows will never own the server room. Linux will never own the desktop."
I disagree. We have been using only GNU/Linux in our server rooms and on our desktops. We have helped many businesses migrate to GNU/Linux both on desktops and servers. The number of migrations to FOSS we are seeing everyday are growing exponentially.
It's either
Linux will own the server room and the desktop too
Or a heterogeneous environment.

It doesnt need "suspicion" at all ?! (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906273)

its already evident what they are trying to do. they are trying to push ms stuff over seemingly open source channels. just HOW many signs and moves you people need to get it ?

Friendly to OSS? (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906293)

If you trust the bear, dont bitch when it bites your hand off.

Playing dead vs. Walking Away / Making Noise... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20908097)

I do trekking in the woods from time to time, and it is recently accepted wisdom that if you meet a bear, you shouldn't play dead (as often advised), but you should calmly retrace your steps and then turn and briskly walk away (for a mile or two). Even better is if you keep making noises all along so that the bear can be wary and avoid meeting you in the first place.

Quite appropriate here too ;-)

Slashback: Ballmer calls open source "a cancer" (1)

christian.einfeldt (874074) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906373)

In case we might have forgotten, this is from an earlier Slashdot post of 01 June 2001:

"In an interview [linux.org] with the Chicago Sun-Times, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer says that Linux and the open source movement is "good competition" because it will "force [Microsoft] to be innovative," but calls Linux "a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches." He also says that the inclusion of IE in Windows has been "great ... for innovation in the software industry" (except for Netscape) and that MS's new copy protections are just "bumps in the road" to "help customers understand when they are crossing the line . . . so they can't do the wrong thing." And he says a few more amusing things, also."
Oh, and who could forget Bill Gates' 06 January 2005 quipcalling open source a type of communism? [zdnet.co.uk]

I'd say that of the world's economies, there's more that believe in intellectual property today than ever. There are fewer communists in the world today than there were. There are some new modern-day sort of communists who want to get rid of the incentive for musicians and moviemakers and software makers under various guises. They don't think that those incentives should exist.
And what about Microsoft General Counsel Brad Smith's claim [zdnet.co.uk] that open source infringes 235 patents? A good summary here of Microsoft's patent claims are here on Forbes [cnn.com] . At current count, 1,563 people have signed up [digitaltippingpoint.com] for Microsoft to "Sue me first" based on their use of Free Open Source Software. Maybe you would want to join them?

A collection of other Ballmer quips about open source is here [zdnet.co.uk] .

Microsoft in no way shape or form accepts the existence of sharing source code or open source or Free Software. Anyone who believes to the contrary simply is new to the industry and is naive.

"peacefully coexist" (1)

zogger (617870) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906395)

Uh huh, sure. What this is, is MS attempt at "make a noise in the east and strike in the west". The black suit business money mercenaries love that stuff, "business is war" and so on.

Re:"peacefully coexist" (1)

Zombie Ryushu (803103) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906675)

I agree, this business is war, and none of us is safe until the threat MS Represents is neutralized. They are coming for us all, its only a matter of time and preparedness.

Re:"peacefully coexist" (1)

QuietObserver (1029226) | more than 6 years ago | (#20907995)

Microsoft's common "peacefully coexist" comments remind me of the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode Conspiracy; in my experience, those that claim to seek peaceful coexistence are always those who desire to control. Those who desire true peace generally avoid commenting since coexistence is wholly meaningless.

Peaceful Coexistence (1)

zx-15 (926808) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906577)

Sounds like a slogan from Kruschev era Soviet Union. Let's hope that "Peaceful coexistence" will end up for Microsoft the same way it ended up for USSR.

And now the commercial... (4, Funny)

JoeCommodore (567479) | more than 6 years ago | (#20906653)

Bill Hilf comes from around from a rack of servers, "Hi there, I'm Bill Hilf, General Manager of Server Marketing here at Microsoft, and Linux 'Good Guy'."

"We here at Microsoft are taking the cold Linux air out of data rooms by employing more than double the Servers running Windows, to make things warm - and quite pretty I might add - with all these blinking lights. Not just those pale green lights you see on Linux servers, but also the bright red and yellow flashing indicators and those reassuring alarms that let you know you are important and not lazy."

Walking over to the rack he turns back to the camera, "Why use Linux and run everything on a single box and worry about having it fail when you can have the same stuff run on eight computers, like this..."

Motioning to the rack full of blades, "One for the Files, one for the Microsoft license validation and tracking, this one here is for serving web pages, this is half the email service, the other one is to handle the other half, spam and viruses for the first, over here is the one for user authentication, Muti-media on this one... my, what big wires! And this one was provided by the federal government to ensure your security, I'm not quite sure what it does, but it is included free with every installation!"

"Now all that 'technology' looks a whole lot more 'professional' than that one box over there, just think of that big data center with that one box, think of your job with just one box, pretty terrifying isn't it... I bet now you are getting the picture...", Hilf smiles as a toll free number appears on the bottom, "Call us today and our sales rep will tell your boss the 'truth'", winks, "... about Linux and how Microsoft keeps YOU 'competitive'."

Windows has a Server Product? (1)

filesiteguy (695431) | more than 6 years ago | (#20907263)

When did that happen?

kdawson is bad for society. (3, Insightful)

adolf (21054) | more than 6 years ago | (#20907999)

"Microsoftie"?

Honestly, sir. Your unending, rigidly-biased McCarthy-esque [wikipedia.org] front-page banter is tiresome and uninteresting, and in no way promotes productive discourse.

Instead, it serves only give you the appearance of being callous and bigoted. And while you may, in fact, be callous and bigoted, the front page of Slashdot is no place in which to display such commentary.

Slashdot, at its tenth year, remains the pinnacle of dispersion for all news matters relating to open source technology, and continues to grow broader in scope of audience by the moment as more and more people become interested this very important concept.

Yet, it is as if you seek to squander that fame, and use it as a means to broadcast your own fallacious shallowness. This quite plainly reflects poorly upon Slashdot as a business unit, but also more significantly upon its own readership. It is nothing but detrimental to the idea of open-source software, and indeed is an affront toward its widespread acceptance.

Please, stop. Every time you say something so thoughtless and misguided, as is occurrent of regular frequency, we all lose a little more credibility.

You are doing us all a tremendous disservice.

Re:kdawson is bad for society. (1)

Blackheim (661904) | more than 6 years ago | (#20908563)

Totally agree and karma be damned, but people. Just say no to kdawson articles.

Its not hard, go to the firehose, filter kdawson and hit that little minus button.

Re:kdawson is bad for society. (1)

jfclavette (961511) | more than 6 years ago | (#20913451)

Sidestepping the broader discussion of the value of kdawson's contributions to Slashdot, 'Microsoftie' isn't derogatory. Microsofties call themselves Microsofties all the time. A quick search could show you that.

Re:kdawson is bad for society. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20914643)

Dear concerned citizen: Fuck you. I don't want to read you crying about a single word in the summary.

Re:kdawson is bad for society. (1)

gujo-odori (473191) | more than 6 years ago | (#20916253)

Uhh, pardon me, but I'm a former Microsoft employee, and "Microsoftie" is very commonly used by Microsoft employees as a self-reference. There is nothing at all wrong with having it on the front page of Slashdot. This most basic of errors renders your entire post baseless.

As far as Hilf being a hardcore Microsoftie, I can't directly comment on that because I don't know him, but I was a first-level manager during my time at Microsoft, and I feel comfortable stating that you cannot rise as high in management as he is without being a fairly hardcore Microsoftie. That doesn't mean he's not an effective manager or that he doesn't do a good job running the open source lab, but it does mean he drinks the Microsoft Kool-Aid or fakes it very, very well. You can't rise in MSFT if you don't. It's as simple as that. My main reason for leaving is that I don't drink that Kool-Aid, and it's a hard place to be comfortable if you don't. If you do, Microsoft is a pretty good place to work. Everyone there just "gets" the software business in a way you see at few other companies. The cafeteria pizza is awesome (but don't drink the coffee; it's the worst I've ever had. I can't imagine what they do to it to get it to taste to bad), and the prices on Microsoft software at the employee store are amazingly cheap. The swag is very expensive, though. I never bought any, even though there were a couple things I would have liked, even if I don't drink the Kool-Aid.

One other thing to keep in mind is why MSFT has an open source lab (I guess they've renamed it; used to be the Linux Lab, IIRC) is not because they think open source is good or because they really want to co-exist with it. The reasons they have it are twofold: one is that many of MSFT's big customers have either always used open source or are now, and it's so common that they have to co-exist with it whether they want to or not, and the other reason is they want to take a good look at and see what features they can co-opt/find ways to defeat it. Or as Sun Tzu put it, "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer."

The story as posted to Slashdot was really pretty accurate. Thanks for playing.

Caffeine required (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#20908265)

It's not good when the first thing you see when you get in to work is "Milf named Windows Server Marketer".

Re:Caffeine required (1)

trongey (21550) | more than 6 years ago | (#20911067)

I'm glad I wasn't the only one to read it that way. I was really confused for a moment.

well this week... (1)

tabby (592506) | more than 6 years ago | (#20909191)

reminds me a little of some dialog from the movie 'The Peacemaker'

Clooney: so first you build the bombs to destroy the whole world & now you want to save it. What's it going to be?
Kidman: well I beleive this week we're saving it.

Can Microsoft say... (1)

TemporalBeing (803363) | more than 6 years ago | (#20911729)

"The director of Microsoft's Open Source Lab, Bill Hilf, has added a new duty -- general manager of Windows server marketing -- to his already established role of shepherding the company's efforts to have open source software peacefully coexist with Microsoft technologies.
Can Microsoft say conflict of interest?

Because that is exactly what this is. No sane employer would do that kind of mixing.
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