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Vista Vs. Gutsy Gibbon

kdawson posted about 7 years ago | from the difference-in-philosophy dept.

Operating Systems 806

ricegf writes in with the account of one Rupert Goodwins writing in ZDNet UK. Goodwins has 7 computers running various versions of Windows and Linux, and explains why he chooses to do most of his work on the Gibbon. "So here's the funny thing. I've used Windows since 1.0. I've lived through the bad times of Windows/386 and ME, and the good times of NT 3.51 and 2K. I know XP if not backwards, then with a degree of familiarity that only middle-aged co-dependents can afford each other... Then how come I'm so much more at home with Ubuntu than Vista? It boils down to one abiding impression: Ubuntu goes out of its way to get out of your way... Vista goes out of its way to be Vista and enforce the Vista way."

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That's because: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092429)

One was written for the lowest common denominator and one wasn't.

Another one (2, Insightful)

xaxa (988988) | about 7 years ago | (#21092433)

How many of these articles are we going to get?

(I'll leave it up to you as to whether I'm just fed up with them, or am pondering the success of Linux)

Re:Another one (4, Funny)

Farakin (1101889) | about 7 years ago | (#21092453)

As many as it takes? (I'll leave it up to you as to whether I'm trying to make you fed up or cheering on the success of Linux)

Re:Another one (4, Funny)

Donniedarkness (895066) | about 7 years ago | (#21092479)

Don't fear the penguins.

Geesh, it even says it on the top of the page.

Re:Another one (1)

gbulmash (688770) | about 7 years ago | (#21092701)

Think of it this way... these OSes are so feature-rich that there are any number of axes on which to compare them. I recently wrote up a comparison between Ubuntu 7.10 and Windows XP [brainhandles.com] , based on installing them into virtual machines on my Mac and then trying to get them to play a DVD.

Re:Another one (5, Funny)

HybridJeff (717521) | about 7 years ago | (#21092463)

You're pondering how fed up you are with the success of linux.

Re:Another one (5, Insightful)

Ramble (940291) | about 7 years ago | (#21092595)

Don't worry, I'm sure we'll get plenty more Compare shitty Windows install by a shoddy minimum wage tech to a souped up customised speedy Gentoo install with all hardware hand picked so it works articles.

YouTube Compare. Re:Another one (-1, Troll)

Erris (531066) | about 7 years ago | (#21092839)

Why read when you can see for yourself [youtube.com] ? Cool, eh? The maker was sure to show you the best of each. What they did not show is that you can run a copy of XP or Vista in a virtual machine on one of those faces, if you absolutely must have M$. Yes, there's more to an OS than a snazzy interface, but you have to admit that M$ is beat and you are going to see more of these articles not less because that last piece of the puzzle is being solved. Other stuff, like year long uptime and file systems that just work have been around for a decade. The list of M$ defectors is already large and impressive [slashdot.org] .

I'll bet the only thing that annoys you more than the success of free software is the failure of Vista. Here's about a dozen movies [slashdot.org] on that, just in case there's anyone out there who is still willing to bother with Vista.

But never forget... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21093085)

...no matter what OS you use, or how bad it is, at least you aren't twitter.

Re:Another one (1)

davidsyes (765062) | about 7 years ago | (#21093081)

Maybe we should get that feature added as to kernel space...

I wonder if this article got posted as a feel-good right after the TurboLinux news posted...

I agree (5, Interesting)

LinuxGeek (6139) | about 7 years ago | (#21092467)

My laptop came with Vista and installed Ubuntu right after purchase. I use Ubuntu much more than my legally purchased windows copy, probably about 10:1 in favor of linux because vista pops up dialog boxes for way too much stuff. For instance, every boot creates about 10 dialog boxes that need to be confirmed. My cpu monitoring app, norton antivirus, etc... all have to be given permission to run, it really pisses me off. I haven't found a way to give permanent permission to those apps without turning UAE off, which strips out some very necessary protection. FU Microsoft.

Re:I agree (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092565)

Ubuntu Gutsy Gibbon getting out of your way to let you work: $0

Windows Vista video ad playing under a slashdot article favouring Linux over Windows: Priceless

There's an ad? (5, Funny)

Gr8Apes (679165) | about 7 years ago | (#21092691)

Darn Firefox plugins, I missed a classic bit of irony

Re:I agree (3, Insightful)

dedazo (737510) | about 7 years ago | (#21092631)

And this is Microsoft's fault, or of the companies who create applications that think they have the go of the entire box? Any application that plays nice with the filesystem/registry ACLs works perfectly well in Vista, the same way they worked on XP under non-privileged accounts.

I run Vista and quite frankly these alleged horror stories amuse me. It's not "slow", it doesn't pop up permission dialogs every five seconds, it didn't deactivate itself when I swapped the network card. After about three days of getting used to where everything was, I'm pretty much as comfortable using it as I was with XP. The only problem I had was a freeware Explorer clone that required elevated privileges, but I really don't use it that much so that's not a big deal. Vim, Komodo Edit, Visual Studio 2005, all my build/config/testing tools, etc. Everything works.

The guy that wrote this article should consider working for the Onion. It's hilarious that he can't seem to figure out how to shut down the computer. I mean, it's the first freaking button next to the search box, and it doesn't even ask for confirmation anymore. I leave the thing on all the time so I'm not big on the shutdown shortcuts, but whatever.

If he doesn't want to migrate to Vista, that's fine. More power to him. But these "opinion articles" with their "I can't be bothered to figure out a slightly different Control Panel - instead, I switched operating systems!" matra are just annoying and stupid.

Re:I agree (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092687)

Actually that button doesn't shut down the computer. That button powers off the computer (usually). Yes, there's a difference.

Re:I agree (3, Insightful)

Zebra_X (13249) | about 7 years ago | (#21092759)

The button does what you configure it to do. The other options are available on the right arrow.

Re:I agree (1, Insightful)

Daengbo (523424) | about 7 years ago | (#21092915)

I, too keep hearing stories about how bad Vista is, and not just from Slashdot. Cranky Geeks (not a pro-Linux show) went on for five minutes last week about how useless it is.

Still, I walk into any computer store and see only Vista machines for meters and meters. The whole thinig confuses me.;)

Re:I agree (5, Insightful)

uglyduckling (103926) | about 7 years ago | (#21093083)

It's hilarious that he can't seem to figure out how to shut down the computer... But these "opinion articles" with their "I can't be bothered to figure out a slightly different Control Panel - instead, I switched operating systems!" matra are just annoying and stupid.

His point isn't that he couldn't figure it out, it's just that things were "arbitrarily different" - changed for the point of change rather than any great enhancement. Sure he could figure out a different Control Panel, but it's annoying to have to do that for no actual gain.

I think what we're actually seeing here is people who don't have any particular need for the unique strengths of Windows (and it does have some) and could do well with any of the alternative mainstream OSs. See, they already "switched operating systems" going from XP to Vista, and the feedback I'm hearing is that the effort of relearning familiar things makes the jump from XP to Ubuntu seem no worse. Actually, I even get the impression that for some the idea of injecting some excitement into their computer usage by exploring a new OS with different strengths and weeknesses is quite attractive compared to relearning Windows in order to go back to what they already new.

Am I way off the mark here? I've been using Debian then Ubuntu near exclusively for 6 years so I'm actually quite looking forward to having a play with Vista just to see if there's anything about a new Microsoft OS that I find attractive. I installed XP on a machine for my sister 3 weeks ago and it took 4 hours worth of downloading drivers and updates just to get to the stage where I could start installing apps (c.f. Ubuntu less than 1 hour for a fully loaded OS+apps) so I'm pretty sure XP is of no value to me from the 'enjoying using the computer' viewpoint unless I need to run some Windows-only software.

If you use a computer for fun, or for work but like to have fun, Ubuntu is great. Quick to install on new hardware, new release every 6 months with new features, improvements and eye candy if you like that sort of thing. Loads of little apps to choose between for virtually any task, all ready to install from official repositories, properly signed etc.

Re:I agree (1)

DAldredge (2353) | about 7 years ago | (#21092635)

Funny when my Vista system boots I don't get any dialog boxes.

Re:I agree (1)

rustalot42684 (1055008) | about 7 years ago | (#21092673)

User Account Control
is not the same thing as
United Arab Emirates

Re:I agree (1)

B3ryllium (571199) | about 7 years ago | (#21092725)

... You run Norton? Your nerd card should be revoked.

Norton hasn't put out a good bit of software since Utilities for MS-DOS. :)

Re:I agree (1)

Gordo_1 (256312) | about 7 years ago | (#21092863)

That's cause Symantec acquired Peter Norton's company in 1990 in a mostly successful attempt to lend credibility to their crappy, resource-hogging security products.

Aside (5, Informative)

IthnkImParanoid (410494) | about 7 years ago | (#21092775)

In my experience there's really no reason to run Norton antivirus, unless you enjoy giving your operating system the equivalent of 300 pound cell mate named Bubba. Between Avast!, AVG, Clamwin, Panda, and any other free antivirus software out there, there's got to be something to replace Norton.

"The greeter application appears to be crashing" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092811)

"The greeter application appears to be crashing
Attempting to use a different one"

This is what I got when I upgraded from Fawn to Gibbon. A dead system.

And I'm supposed to use Linux why?.

Ignoring the obvious Wallmart greeter jokes, does anyone even know what this means?

Re:I agree (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092817)

To start admin tasks at login without Defender complaining, start them using the Task Scheduler.

Re:I agree (1)

General_Crespin (840569) | about 7 years ago | (#21092945)

For simple EXEs you want to run at startup, set them as a scheduled task in the Task Scheduler and to run as administrator IIRC.

Re:I agree (5, Interesting)

Miltazar (1100457) | about 7 years ago | (#21093031)

This is definitely not a popular opinion around here but here goes. I've used Vista, along with every other Windows OS ever to haunt our doorstep. I've also used many Linux distro's including Ubuntu Gutsy, Debian(personal preference of the Linux variety), Gentoo, Fedora, Redhat, CentOS, etc. I've been using Vista both at work and at home for about half a year now, and I have absolutely no problem with it.

Despite all the talk of new user friendliness with Ubuntu Gutsy I've yet to see it. My MXL USB Mic doesn't just work when I plug it in. I have to fiddle around with settings for a while. At work, I can't just easily interface with our Active Directory(yes its MS, but its what we use). Sure I've gotten all that working, but it took me a lot of searching and tweaking. Vista may have driver problems, but I've never encountered any major ones. With Linux however, every install is a new driver issue. When it comes down to it, Vista just works. Yes, I can get Linux working with everything, but I don't want to have to spend all that time on an OS when I can just use windows.

Also as a gamer I'm also unable to permanently switch to Linux. Wine works for some, but its just not good enough. I love Linux, but for now it just isn't ready to be my permanent OS. Despite all this trouble with Vista I hear about, I've yet to experience any of it. It runs perfectly on my machine.

When Linux has a dominant share of the market place, and games are put out strictly for Linux, then I'll switch.
Until then, Microsoft will still be king.

Re:I agree (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21093041)

Vista's security is managed by an Amiga emulator? [winuae.net] ? No wonder the requirements are so high!

Easy (2, Insightful)

El Lobo (994537) | about 7 years ago | (#21092505)

You see what you want to see. You want to like Ubuntu (or insert some Linuzzzzz distro here), so this is a good start. We all do. I like Windows (and I damn sure see all it's imperfections). I have used Ubuntu, and it feels very rough to me. But once again: I see what I want to see, and I have no incentive to search some other OS, because in Windows I feel like home. I have a OSX machine at home as well for testing purposes. The system is good but it feels OSX alien to me. Everybody should use the system they like and stop preaching and advocating. use trhe TOOL you like, not the bible you read.

Re:Easy (-1, Redundant)

El Lobo (994537) | about 7 years ago | (#21092613)

I don't see any troll here. Give the guy a break, he's being sincere with his opinion: he sees what he wants to see and we all do that. We WANT to like linux, or MacOS... Why it's so hard to accept that other people can like Windows, Amiga PalmOs or whatever?

Re:Easy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092889)

I don't see any troll here.
Well, the usage of "Linuzzz" instead of "Linux" is a typical troll tactic. (I can't think of any legitimate reason to spell it that way: the only purpose would be to annoy.) If you check this user's history of posts you'll see other examples (e.g. here [slashdot.org] and here [slashdot.org] ).

It's a troll because the exact same information could have been related without being quite so inflammatory. If the user's intention was really only to inform (and not to provoke), then he should have taken additional steps to craft his writing to be more informative and less dismissive of other's opinions.

Re:Easy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21093027)

Well, the usage of "Linuzzz" instead of "Linux" is a typical troll tactic.

As opposed to, say, "M$ Windoze", right?

Re:Easy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21093015)

What the fuck is wrong with you?! ..forgot to tick "Post Anonymously", eh. Pretty embarrassing.

Re:Easy (4, Insightful)

kebes (861706) | about 7 years ago | (#21092805)

Everybody should use the system they like and stop preaching and advocating. use trhe TOOL you like, not the bible you read.
Fair enough. However your post is somewhat dismissive, as if you're implying "I don't see the point of these kinds of articles" (if I'm putting words in your mouth, I apologize). To respond to that hypothetical implication: the point of such discussions is that there has to be some way for people to learn about alternatives.

I, for one, was once at a point where I was quite frustrated with my (Windows) experience. Only because people bothered to mention alternatives did I eventually discover that OSX and Linux solved many of the problems I was having.

As you can tell, I'm now a Linux user, so as you say my opinion is inherently biased towards enjoying Linux. So perhaps I gloss over some of the troubles I had along my migration path to Linux. Yet despite that, the experiences (both positive and negative) of people who have legitimately tried multiple operating systems are valuable to others. In fact, it's rather difficult to claim that the majority of Windows users are actually using "the right tool" because very few of them are aware of (much less have evaluated) the alternate tools out there. For many of them, their needs might actually be better served by a non-Windows OS.

I can understand a dislike of evangelical attempts to convert people... but there's nothing inherently wrong with describing, or even advocating, an alternative.

I wanted to say something witty... (5, Funny)

BronsCon (927697) | about 7 years ago | (#21092519)

like "First Post"

But this insight came out instead.

To the end-user, Windows has "security through obstruction", which annoys and gets disabled. To that same end-user, Linux has "security through obscurity", which stays out of the way.

Yes, I know, open source, all the flaws are right there for everyone to see, not obscured at all. That's not what the end-user sees. The end-user just knows that it's more secure because that's what their geek friend told them; they never see why, they never care why and they never need bother with it. This is a good thing. What doesn't annoy them enough that they go out of their way to disable... I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

Let's review what we've learned so far this year:
Linux - driver issues. Vista - driver issues.
Linux - learning curve. Vista - learning curve.
Linux - secure until you work around the security in the name of convenience. Vista - secure until you work around the security in the name of convenience.
Linux - annoying until you learn it. Vista - annoying until you learn it AND disable the security features.

Re:I wanted to say something witty... (1)

El Lobo (994537) | about 7 years ago | (#21092577)

AND disable the security features
Which security features do you find annoying? UAC? Because when the system has comed so long that you don't need to install a driver every day or install a new application you won't see an elevation prompt. i can't remember the last time I saw one of those and I run as a non-admin WITh UAC enabled. Of course the first days with the new machine when installing things are every second operation, it's kind of annoying, but then... you won't see it at all... almost. But as you say, this is a new learning curve and users these days want the easy path and negatively react to any new change even if his life depends on it.

Re:I wanted to say something witty... (1)

BronsCon (927697) | about 7 years ago | (#21092735)

I apologize for not mentioning that I do use both. I prefer Linux, by far, mostly using Windows for development and testing, sometimes for audio work. I was writing that list from the typical user's perspective, not my own.

That said, as a developer, the path the end-suer takes is VERY important to me. This is precisely why I despise Vista. Being a developer also means I see UAC prompts VERY often because I recognize why not to disable them or run as an administrator all the time.

You have to look from more than one point-of-view, often from more than two, when writing for a diverse audience, and address the concerns of every member of that audience or you will quickly find your audience moving on to other shows.

Quite the opposite for me old chaps (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092521)

My computer arrived with Ubuntu installed on it. I gave it a jog or two for several days, but ended up wiping that and installing Vista, and I've never been happier. Not sure why you blokes are so dead set against Vista. You do realize that in a few years, you'll have to be running Vista to use the tools of our generation? So why put off til tomorrow...

A few years time... (2, Interesting)

SuperKendall (25149) | about 7 years ago | (#21092585)

You do realize that in a few years, you'll have to be running Vista to use the tools of our generation? So why put off til tomorrow...

In a few years time, even Photoshop will be on the web.

Most of the rest of us will be running Macs or Linux boxes, unless you're a store that needs cash registers. Or webbing in via a PS3 or 360 (or successors thereof).

Windows computers are the mainframes of the consumer computing space. They'll be around for a long time but it'll not be because people want to use them.

Re:A few years time... (2, Insightful)

sqrt(2) (786011) | about 7 years ago | (#21092709)

Not when the average American is still using dial up for internet access, or doesn't even have net access AT ALL. Web apps of that size and complexity require affordable, ubiquitous and always on internet connections. When that's the reality for America, we'll talk, until then your predictions look a little silly when you see the state of things in the real world.

Re:A few years time... (1)

Bigjeff5 (1143585) | about 7 years ago | (#21092963)

I guarantee anybody using $500+ piece of software is also going to have a $2000+ computer in order to run it, and anybody dropping that kind of cash for a computer is almost certainly going to have broadband as well, especially since it is almost certainly for work related use. Besides, Vista needs an internet connection to run anyway with their anal protection schemes, so if they've dropped the cash for Vista or a Vista ready computer, they either have or are planning to get broadband. The world is heading to faster internet, not slower, so "In the future" all this stuff is very viable. And Windoze won't be necessary. BTW, I personally switch from Vista to Ubuntu, cause Vista sucks compared to XP and I didn't have a legal copy of XP, so Linux it is! (Go on and infer that Ubuntu is better than Vista, cause that's what I'm implying) I'd still prefer XP at this time, however.

Re:A few years time... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21093003)

In a few years time, even Photoshop will be on the web.
No, in a few years time a very small version of Photoshop with a very small subset of the current functionality will be available on the web. I could possibly see Photoshop being available on the web in its entirety in ten years, but there's not the slightest chance that a full version of Photoshop, that's comparable to the client side version, will be available on the web within merely a few years.

Networking speeds in much of North America would have to improve dramatically, and web application development tools, and web browsers in general, would need to see major improvements before we started to see anything that resembles the current Photoshop being delivered over the web.

Re:Quite the opposite for me old chaps (1)

ThePhilips (752041) | about 7 years ago | (#21092649)

My computer arrived with Ubuntu installed on it.

LoL. You should put lies in the end of message. That's tried and it works: few people read till end of message.

Reality of M$ iron grip on OEMs is that you have to ask many times before they will sell a computer without Windows preinstalled. You have real chances that will deny your request - or even send you to competitor - but will not sell w/o Windows.

M$ holds many OEMs accountant not to number of Windows licenses sold - but to number of computers sold and they pay M$ for every computer sold. Then, if computer was sold w/o Windows, OEM has to file a special request and M$ would return the money.

Re:Quite the opposite for me old chaps (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092743)

Hello there, fellow Slashdotter. There seems to be a malfunction with your keyboard. You are transmitting a '$' instead of 'S' over-the-wire. Please correct ASAP.

Thanks, and enjoy every sandwich!

Re:Quite the opposite for me old chaps (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092929)

You should put lies in the end of message

Are you being sarcastic? See: http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/ubuntu?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs [dell.com]

I agree it's not common, and it's a trick finding the site from the dell.com main page, but there is at least one major supplier who ships Linux boxes. (Whether any of you money for the Dell Ubuntu box actually finds its way into Microsoft's coffers is another question.)

Re:Quite the opposite for me old chaps (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092679)

You do realize that in a few years, you'll have to be running Vista to use the tools of our generation?

You do realise you're wrong?

You do realise that Ubuntu is better?

You do realise that you're a paid shill?

You do realise many people (including myself and the author of that article--who used to be a Windows user) find Ubuntu more than good enough for their needs?

You do realise that we're against Vista because of the reasons mentioned in the article? Let me sum it up for you: Vista is shit.

My take on it (5, Interesting)

BlueParrot (965239) | about 7 years ago | (#21092525)

Some time ago I accidentally fried my motherboard, so, time to get a new computer. My dad's job was throwing out an "old" machine. The new machine was a bit worse than my original one. It didn't have DDR2 memory, it used a Radeon 9200 rather than my nVidia card, the CPU was an old Pentium 4 rather than my faster AMD chip, and the integrated soundcard I had never heard of.

Anyway, I connect my HD which had Ubuntu Edgy installed on it, boot up. X complains about the video card so I change "nvidia" to "ati" in xorg.conf, type: startx, and 2 minutes latter I am reading my mail in thunderbird.

But you know, I'm sure Vista would perfectly well manage me changing ALL hardware except the HD, running on a P4 with 384MB SDRAM, and be up and running without even a reboot. Oh, and does Aero support virtual desktops yet?

Seriously, given the price and system requirements, Vista is a joke.

Re:My take on it (4, Informative)

lattyware (934246) | about 7 years ago | (#21092645)

And with Gutsy, and it's 'never crash out to bash' ideology, and the x-settings manager that will start if x crashes, you now would not even need to be an intelligent user in this case with Gutsy to get it to work. It's a long-awaited idea, and one that'll be gladly received. It works well too, in 99% of situations. Of course there are some hardware setups that would not work even in this 'safe-mode' style of graphics setup - but they are very few and far between - and anyone using them will probably be able to solve it at a bash prompt, and this is a huge step forward. I've laughed at people for saying Windows is easier. Bull. Windows is more familiar, maybe. But Linux has now been made so much more easy than windows. Installing and using Vista for gaming after more than a year of Linux only use was hell.

Re:My take on it (1)

Macrosoft0 (1128625) | about 7 years ago | (#21092653)

also, by changing the hardware, you void the activation of vista; and you would then be screwed.

Re:My take on it (0, Troll)

ArcherB (796902) | about 7 years ago | (#21092681)

Anyway, I connect my HD which had Ubuntu Edgy installed on it, boot up. X complains about the video card so I change "nvidia" to "ati" in xorg.conf, type: startx, and 2 minutes latter I am reading my mail in thunderbird.

The problem with you story is that your average "End LUser" is not going to be able to edit the xorg.conf using vi, and even if they could, probably wouldn't know to change "nvidia" to "ati". The CLI is a bit beyond what most people care to know.

That said, they would have had to work around all the Windows Genuine Advantage crap. Find, download and install every driver the system used, including sound card, chipset, IDE controller, video and so on. However, they would at least have a low res "safe mode" GUI to do it all in. There would be no editing of text files.

Until Ubuntu or whatever distro user can do every single thing in the GUI that they can do through the CLI, Window will have an advantage. MS writes Windows with a GUI in mind from the ground up. Linux is designed to work with or without a GUI. On rare occasion, such as the one you listed here, there will be an absolute need to use the CLI in Linux. Some people just can't handle that.

Re:My take on it (5, Insightful)

BlueParrot (965239) | about 7 years ago | (#21092953)

The problem with you story is that your average "End LUser" is not going to be able to edit the xorg.conf using vi, and even if they could, probably wouldn't know to change "nvidia" to "ati". The CLI is a bit beyond what most people care to know. ...
Until Ubuntu or whatever distro user can do every single thing in the GUI that they can do through the CLI, Window will have an advantage. MS writes Windows with a GUI in mind from the ground up. Linux is designed to work with or without a GUI. On rare occasion, such as the one you listed here, there will be an absolute need to use the CLI in Linux. Some people just can't handle that.


Now what a remarkable and amazing coincidence that Gutsy has such a fall-back GUI for fixing broken X sessions. It is almost as if they are working to make it more accessible to non-technical users...

Re:My take on it (1, Troll)

Blahbooboo3 (874492) | about 7 years ago | (#21092703)

so I change "nvidia" to "ati" in xorg.conf, type: startx,


And that is the problem with Linux. What non-nerd user wants to do or even would know how to do this sort of thing?
Heck, I am a nerd and if I switch my desktop to a Unix OS I am going to just get a Mac.

Re:My take on it (2, Insightful)

Dunbal (464142) | about 7 years ago | (#21093019)

What non-nerd user wants to do or even would know how to do this sort of thing?

      No, a non nerd would do exactly what they do today. He would take his machine to a computer shop. He would be told to come back in 3 days. The techie would change the xorg.conf line, give the non nerd his computer back 3 days later and charge him $400. So what are you complaining about?

Re:My take on it (1)

Ginger Unicorn (952287) | about 7 years ago | (#21093051)

you're totally missing the point. in windows that wouldn't have even been an option. he performed a feat with linux that would be totally impossible with windows.

and also the latest version of ubuntu wouldnt even have required dropping to the CLI to sort this out. It now gives you a GUI to correct your graphics settings should the desktop fail to initialise.

Why do they always do this (1, Offtopic)

kcbanner (929309) | about 7 years ago | (#21092535)

I've seen this happening for awhile. The headline will read "*Insert Latest Release of X Distro Here* vs Vista!"

Personally I don't get it...why do we always have to compare the features of X distro with the latest Windows release? The very fact that we are doing so is degrading to the distro, its basically saying that the distro should be like windows...as if somehow Window is the "baseline" for this benchmark. The whole point of using *nix/*bsd is to be different from the mainstream...be more efficient, productive, whatever.

Why do we always have to compare the two OSes as if they should both be the same...this is the completely wrong thing to be doing. The linux distro will get rated down because it doesn't have some windows bug/feature. I don't get it.

So people, please stop your incessant comparisons and side-by-side screenshot postings...they can't be compared as if they were cars; they are Different Things

Oh, and first post, woo.

Re:Why do they always do this (1)

BronsCon (927697) | about 7 years ago | (#21092621)

On the contrary, often times it's saying the newest Windows version should be more like Distro X. And yes, it is degrading to Windows.

Until my old scanner gets a working Linux driver, I still have a use for Windows. Hopefully being locked in the basement, fed barely enough to survive and being made to operate specialized equipment, recieving attention only when your work is needed, isn't too degrading. Okay, now I'm starting to feel sorry for Windows.

How not to look like a Slashdot idiot (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092627)

Never try to claim that your post is first post, because chances are far too high that it won't be. This is especially true if you're posting nine minutes after the real first post.

Re:How not to look like a Slashdot idiot (1)

kcbanner (929309) | about 7 years ago | (#21092843)

Yeap...no posts were there when I hit reply originally, but of course I got the "lol you hit submit before 30 secs you naughty" message :P

I don't know whats worse...getting first post and not saying first post...or saying first post and not getting first post...perhaps the latter?

Re:Why do they always do this (5, Funny)

Chandon Seldon (43083) | about 7 years ago | (#21092667)

they can't be compared as if they were cars; they are Different Things

They absolutely can be compared like they were cars.

Vista is like a short bed gasoline pickup truck. You can perform most day to day tasks with it, but it gets horrible gas mileage and can't handle edge cases (4 passengers, seven foot long cargo) very well at all.

A distro like Ubuntu is more like a VW Golf TDI that can transform into a panel van or 18 wheeler when necessary. It's obviously superior in every way, but people complain about stupid stuff like gas stations that don't sell diesel and how hard it is to get through a 10' tunnel when you're in 18-wheeler mode.

Re:Why do they always do this (1)

Dunbal (464142) | about 7 years ago | (#21092973)

Vista is like a short bed gasoline pickup truck. You can perform most day to day tasks with it, but it gets horrible gas mileage and can't handle edge cases

      Also make sure that you haul only MPAA/RIAA approved cargo. In fact, some of the time the truck will refuse to run even if you don't haul the "wrong" things. Oh and make sure you buy the special, approved brake pads and tyres (they're just the same only 5 times the price) if you want nice looking custom hubcaps, otherwise the wheels might fall off.

Re:Why do they always do this (1)

moderatorrater (1095745) | about 7 years ago | (#21092977)

A distro like Ubuntu is more like a VW Golf TDI that can transform into a panel van or 18 wheeler when necessary. It's obviously superior in every way, but people complain about stupid stuff like gas stations that don't sell diesel and how hard it is to get through a 10' tunnel when you're in 18-wheeler mode.
I'm going to go further and say that it can be a car, a semi, a fleet of semis (beowulf cluster), a missile, a tank, an RC toy, or a cd player. It can also infect others with itself (through virtualization like Xen; haven't heard of any virtualization software that runs off of windows yet). I'd say linux is like a mix between the borg and the transformers.

Re:Why do they always do this (1)

Machtyn (759119) | about 7 years ago | (#21092675)

It is true that these comparisons are not apples to apples. But it's the best thing we've got when trying to convince the average joe that Linux/BSD is just fine for them to use over Windows.

Re:Why do they always do this (1)

Tuoqui (1091447) | about 7 years ago | (#21092719)

It is good to have DIFFERENT THINGS... But the fact is at the end of the day you have to pander to the End Users of the world. This means making things that JUST WORK and work the way they expect (Windows).

If Linux as a whole can ever get End Users off the Microsoft teat then they'll be able to slowly make changes to make things better. As it is from any Microsoft environment to a Linux one is a little bit of a culture shock even if everything works (but not as they expect it to)

Re:Why do they always do this (1)

whoever57 (658626) | about 7 years ago | (#21093047)

This means making things that JUST WORK and work the way they expect (Windows).
IMHO, it is a complete myth that Windows "just works". Recent example:

Plug camera into windows system. Needs to install drivers, oops, won't install. Need to log off an log on again as Administrator. IMHO, "Run As" only works in about 50% of cases.

Plug camer into Linux (Ubuntu) system. JUST WORKS. Photo application opens automatically. Did not need to find driver CD, install s/w etc.

There are many such examples of this.

Re:Why do they always do this (2, Insightful)

im_dan (887241) | about 7 years ago | (#21092873)

I don't like flimsy articles rehashing the same old stuff just because a new distro is out either. It the rest of what you've said

they are Different Things
They are both operating systems. They are very much the same thing, we should compare them so we can choose between 2 competing products and decide which would suit our needs.

as if somehow Window is the "baseline" for this benchmark
I know you don't agree with that and neither do I, but like it or not Microsoft operating systems are number 1 based on the number of installs and that's why a comparison is prudent.
A worthwhile review would be one that covers the top 3-4 operating systems and outlines strengths and weaknesses of each, but I think most people on /. have already done that for themselves

Re:Why do they always do this (1)

Dunbal (464142) | about 7 years ago | (#21092877)

its basically saying that the distro should be like windows...as if somehow Window is the "baseline" for this benchmark. The whole point of using *nix/*bsd is to be different from the mainstream...be more efficient, productive, whatever.

      So tell me, why does Windows try so hard to be like "X"? unix had it first. What, you think Apple and Microsoft were being ORIGINAL when they "invented" the GUI?

      People LIKE GUI's, so long as they're not (too much of) a resource hog and obfuscate things instead of making them easier. Why are you trying to fight it?

Re:Why do they always do this (1)

kcbanner (929309) | about 7 years ago | (#21092933)

I was referring to X not as in X11 but as in the variable X for "X feature".

And your point is? (2, Insightful)

rustalot42684 (1055008) | about 7 years ago | (#21092555)

I don't want to be a defeatist, but...
In my opinion, it doesn't really matter whether ubuntu is better, because Microsoft already has >90% of the market. Be realistic: 2008 will not be the year of the Linux Desktop. Neither will 2009. Or 2010. When a company has that much marketshare and actively tries to keep others from entering the playing field, it's not really going to happen. Most people just want to sit at the computer and do their work. I use the Vista on my laptop only about 3% of the time; otherwise I'm using Kubuntu. When I'm on the bus and the person asks me about compiz, I happily tell them about Linux. But the momentum of Microsoft Windows is so large that Linux will not become a widely-used desktop OS.

Re:And your point is? (2, Insightful)

ThePhilips (752041) | about 7 years ago | (#21092779)

[...] Microsoft already has >90% of the market.

Correction: "Microsoft still has >80% of the market."

Do not make such mistakes anymore! ;)

N.B. fyi, Ubuntu is distributed freely so it is not part of market.

But the momentum of Microsoft Windows is so large that Linux will not become a widely-used desktop OS.

There is a huge difference between "momentum" and "inertia".

Today you use KUbuntu. You feel like a black sheep. Tomorrow you suddenly find that some other your friend uses . Then one more friend. Then one more. Then you just stop counting.

That's how it happens - w/o anyone really noticing. I'd place any Linux user over 10 Windows users simply because every Linux user made a choice. While more or less every Windows user have what he got with computer - preinstalled. Choice is a barrier. Choice is important. Choice is all the difference between Linux and Windows.

Re:And your point is? (2, Interesting)

N7DR (536428) | about 7 years ago | (#21092969)

Today you use KUbuntu. You feel like a black sheep. Tomorrow you suddenly find that some other your friend uses . Then one more friend. Then one more. Then you just stop counting.

Yep. I have been telling people for years that Linux is where the future is. Mostly they've politely ignored me, but I have long felt that the main point has been made: each of those people has heard someone say good things about Linux. That sort of thing sticks.

Today I walked into a meeting room for an organisation with which I've worked off and on for years, many of whose employees have heard me praise Linux on various occasions. On the blackboard from the previous meeting was a list of bash commands. I asked someone what the meeting has been about. He broke into a grin and said, "You'll love this; we've decided to move to Linux instead of Vista". Obviously, they didn't just do this because of me. I was doubtless just one of many bricks in the wall. But the wall got build, though it took several years. I have a great deal of confidence that that story is going to be repeated so many times over the next decade that we'll eventually get bored of hearing how someone else has made the switch; it'll be an everyday occurrence. Even though it doesn't look like it, I believe Linux has already reached critical mass: the chain reaction has just started, and it's only going to get faster.

Re:And your point is? (2, Insightful)

Dunbal (464142) | about 7 years ago | (#21092833)

because Microsoft already has >90% of the market. Be realistic: 2008 will not be the year of the Linux Desktop. Neither will 2009. Or 2010. When a company has that much marketshare and actively tries to keep others from entering the playing field, it's not really going to happen.

      Yeah, they used to say that about hmm let's see, OS/360, VAX/VMS, DOS... etc. Revolutions DO happen. It's up to you if you want to be late to the game or not. The ONLY thing I can't do in linux is play the latest games, or use some "Internet Explorer only" websites. I can do EVERYTHING else just as well or better.

Different experience here (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092557)

I did a complete reformat of my system for Gutsy. Installed from the CD, and ended up with the black screen of death on restart.

Of course, I was able to get out of it. That's not really the point. The point is I had to do a bunch of command line hackery just to see the login screen for the first time.

Re:Different experience here (1, Flamebait)

kcbanner (929309) | about 7 years ago | (#21092695)

I'm confused...couldn't you have just dist-upgraded or whatever its called in Ubuntu. I know in my distro (Arch Linux) I just run one command and I'm up to date with the latest release (rolling release system.).

I find it mind-numbingly astounding that someone would format to upgrade their linux distro. Ubuntu really is trying to copy Windows.

Re:Different experience here (1)

ambrosen (176977) | about 7 years ago | (#21092923)

Well, they could have, but for some reason decided to go about things the hard way.

Re:Different experience here (1)

kcbanner (929309) | about 7 years ago | (#21092975)

Must have been a previous Windows user? The knee-jerk reflex: "Format!!"

And yet a different experience here (1)

Reality Master 201 (578873) | about 7 years ago | (#21092793)

I wiped my laptop (a rapidly aging Latitude D800) and installed Gutsy, and the install was flawless and it rebooted fine and even properly recognized the correct X mode settings for my LDC panel and video card, as well as my wireless. It's the most hassle free OS install I've ever had on any machine.

It's not perfect (what the fuck is with NetworkManager and nm-applet - they're crap), but it generally works quite well.

Different bugs for different folks, I guess.

I hate to say this... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092573)

...But I'll take XP on the desktop over Ubuntu (or Linux) any day. Ubuntu 7.10 is a pain to install, setup and use compared to XP. Few things I need "just work" in Linux.

Before you suggest it, I'm a hardcore geek from way back. Waaaay back. But these days I simply don't have time to spend all day and night just getting an OS to work. I have a wife and kids now, not to mention actual work to accomplish.

There aren't enough hours in a day/night leftover for ploughing through howtos, or trawling usergroups, for the info necessary just to, say, get 7.10 or Mandriva 2008 to connect to the LAN.

On the server, *nix rules, but on the desktop it has a very long way to go before it can compete with XP on an even footing. Vista? Dunno. You couldn't pay me enough to use it.

Yes, I know, I'm going to be modded troll or flamebait or accused of being an MS apologist or fanboy by some raw-nerved *nix zealot. How dare I say such things? Gasp! Shame on me.

Re:I hate to say this... (1)

Blahbooboo3 (874492) | about 7 years ago | (#21092739)

Well put. You're about to get slashdot slammed now of course :)

Re:I hate to say this... (1)

Dunbal (464142) | about 7 years ago | (#21092749)

Few things I need "just work" in Linux.

      Oh dear, how hard is it to type "sudo apt-get install xxxxxx" ?

      I've gone back to ubuntu recently and since Feisty, I'm pleasantly surprised.

Re:I hate to say this... (1)

Macthorpe (960048) | about 7 years ago | (#21092947)

how hard is it to type "sudo apt-get install xxxxxx"
How hard is it to realise that not every problem on Linux can be solved be installing vetted software?

Re:I hate to say this... (5, Interesting)

rustalot42684 (1055008) | about 7 years ago | (#21092767)

That's odd. My experience was actually quite the opposite: When doing an reinstall of OEM Vista, I had to spend 2 hours poring through howtos, manuals, etc, getting drivers and trying to get everything to work, but installing off the Kubuntu 7.10 alpha 5 worked flawlessly. I'm not going to flame you, because if that was your experience, that was your experience. But it's quite different than what happened to me.

Note: this was an OEM disc, supplied by Dell itself, so I would have to wonder why it wouldn't work..

Re:I hate to say this... (2, Insightful)

fooDfighter (916234) | about 7 years ago | (#21092851)

What's really sad is that thinking back I've probably spent more time getting Windows to work than linux. The problem for linux is that few people actually install Windows on their machines, it comes pre-installed with all the correct drivers. When you have to install windows on a machine you built yourself though... what a hassle, especially when you're using RAID or SATA drives (with Windows XP at least). Then begins the re-installation of the 100 different apps, games, and patches that you had on your old machine, plus the configuration thereof (which is sometimes hard to transfer since a lot of it is in the ball of string known as the registry).

For someone who enjoys building their own hardware (for quality and reliability), linux is actually less time-consuming. Especially Ubuntu, which has worked out-of-the-box on the last three machines I've installed it on (including one laptop with wireless, typically a problem case).

Re:I hate to say this... (1)

mindwanderer (1169521) | about 7 years ago | (#21093055)

Except that in the case of windows, it's often a case of simply going to the hardware manufacturer's site and downloading the correct driver. Wish it were that simple with linux. But that's really not the issue for me. It's more the fact that a good chunk of the hardware I'm using on this laptop cannot be made to work 100% in linux due to the simple fact that 3rd party drivers can only do so much.

Re:I hate to say this... (1)

BronsCon (927697) | about 7 years ago | (#21092941)

I understand that you may have had issues that were caused by linux on incompatible hardware (it's unfortunate, but it happens, just like with Windows).

My question is, did you try Gutsy after its official release about a week ago? If not, do you realize that many of the problems you faced may have been the continuing changes that release of the distro was undergoing up until the official release?

Just to qualify, I've been using Gusty since Herd 1 and yes, it had its moments of horror. I knew, however, to expect them, just as I knew to expect them when I took part in the Vista beta.

Now that both have officially been released, I can tell you that neither are now what they were before. I might offer a suggestion that you try Gutsy again now that it's an official release and many times more stable.

Who knows, maybe Linux just isn't your thing. Or maybe it's just prerelease operating systems that cause problems for you. Only one way to find out.

To further qualify, I'll leave you with this. In the end, you'll use whichever works better for you and that's how it should be. I use both and long to add at least one Mac to my office eventually.

Re:I hate to say this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21093069)

I d/led v7.10 three nights ago. It installed opkay for the most part, but network/intarwebz connectivity is out. Nothing seems to fix it. I've d/led it twice since, from different mirrors and tried installing on other systems. One is a no go, another is fine except the connectivity thing, and another thinks Xconf.org is Satan. Another machine works intermittently...either it's 100% all systems go, or it fails to boot.

Mandriva 2008 gets to the "loading the desktop" stage and just hangs on almost all the machines I've tried it on. Nothing beyond that. Again, different mirrors, different systems, same issue on PCs with different specs. (Some have onboard graphics, some nVidia, two have ATI cards.) One machine doesn't even get that far.

Windows XP, for all that's wrong with it (not least being that it's from Microscum), will install and work 100% on 99% of the computers I've installed it upon. Galling? Yeah, it kind of is. I love all-things open source and without *nix servers my work life would not be what it is...but Linix just isn't ready for the desktop of people who don't have all day to tinker.

Re:I hate to say this... (1)

flicman (177070) | about 7 years ago | (#21093021)

CmdrTaco...

is that you?

let's all just post blogs (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092607)

lets all post blogs about what we like and don't like about computing so that we can all make the front page of slashdot.
 
yawn.

I'll just say one thing (2, Insightful)

pwizard2 (920421) | about 7 years ago | (#21092609)

When I'm using Windows, (any version) I really miss having a real terminal (cmd.exe just doesn't do it for me) and apt-get (there is nothing like having all of the software I need available at any time from one central place)

Re:I'll just say one thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21092855)

When I'm using Windows, (any version) I really miss having a real terminal (cmd.exe just doesn't do it for me) and apt-get (there is nothing like having all of the software I need available at any time from one central place)
Isn't that two things?

Let me guess (1, Insightful)

marcello_dl (667940) | about 7 years ago | (#21092671)

> Then how come I'm so much more at home with Ubuntu than Vista?
Because a linux desktop has the traditional GUI and sometimes even the windows convert in mind while Microsoft needs to redefine the desktop experience in a different way to maintain an edge. They practically would like people to be hostages of the Microsoft way so that linux will look different to them and discourage the switch. Of course in this first period it's the exact opposite, but they have their dominant position to exploit. This opinion is based on the futility of the changes in ie7 UI, but i guess the philosophy is the same for vista.

PS: as a former macOS user I felt towards XP the same WTF attitude people experience in vista today, while Linux is more of a Wow/Damn dichotomy, with a refreshing sense of freedom.

Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista (3, Interesting)

XahXhaX (730306) | about 7 years ago | (#21092741)

...at least Vista _boots_ after installation. I have had nothing but trouble from attempting to run Ubuntu--from difficulty getting the Nvidia drivers for my 6800 working to GRUB mysteriously being screwed up between sessions, to not my system not even booting if I do something as radical as try to boot my system with an external hard drive plugged in. Add all the problems with it not mounting things like said external drive or the secondary internal drive as anything but read-only, and a ton of other issues, and so far I've probably spent more time trying to get the damn thing working than actually using it. When I did the recent upgrade to 7.10, it didn't even boot after installation. It wiped my XP entry out of menu.lst and botched the rest of the file. No backup file or anything of the sort. If Microsoft released an OS that didn't even boot directly after installation they would never hear the end of it. I used Vista for several months and had plenty of troubles with it, like Explorer forgetting over half the directory settings it was supposed to retain or never getting it to detect my XP desktop over my home network (Ubuntu on the other hand just plain doesn't work with files over a network, try playing music or videos shared from another computer, so while it technically works who cares?) But at least Vista generally _worked_, Ubuntu must be synonymous with 'broken'.

Fill in the blanks and save for future use (5, Funny)

Seismologist (617169) | about 7 years ago | (#21092745)

I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you _____ fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a _____ (a _____ w/_____ gigs of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my ancient _____ running _____, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this _____, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that. In addition, during this file transfer, _____ will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even _____ is straining to keep up as I type this. I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various _____'s, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a _____ that has run faster than its _____ counterpart, despite the _____'s same chip architecture. My _____ with _____ megs of ram runs faster than this _____ mhz machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that _____ is a superior operating system. _____ lovers, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use _____ over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.

Linux does a hell of a lot more than Windows does (2, Interesting)

Doug52392 (1094585) | about 7 years ago | (#21092791)

I just bought a new Gateway computer a few months ago, and immediately installed Linux on it (Fedora 7 Linux). I almost always use Linux now. Why? Because I get tired of all those UAC crap. Every single time I turn the computer on to Vista, it reminds me of how I have Premium and why I should give m$ more money to get Ultimate. I have to scan EVERY file I download through a virus-scanner. I always need to download somting extra to do something not included in Vista, and can never find freeware software because of all the proprietary garbage on the Internet for WIndows. I installed Wolfstine: Enemy Territory on Vista, and got so pissed at it. First I needed to run as admin, then a DLL kept failing, had to download a patch. Then I needed to allow the game to get through on the network. Then when I finally get to play, the graphics are so messed up, and it crashes with c0000005 access violation errors (like every other game I try to play in Windows). Thank God there is a Linux version! Just downloaded it, ran the .run file, and I was playing with NO ERRORS. I have a full web server hooked up, to do the things I can do in Linux would have cost me about $3,000 in software to do on Windows.

Not able to set screen res, but finds it OK? (1)

Com2Kid (142006) | about 7 years ago | (#21092881)

Not being able to set my monitor resolution correctly (especially for an LCD) is an instant deal breaker. He decides not to bother with XORG.CONF configuration and just what, left it that way?

Every video card made in the last 5 or 6 (or 10...) years is capable of outputting every sane resolution possible. Even Windows (most of the time) lets me override its "For Your Protection" results, tell it to screw off, and just select arbitrary settings.

And his problems about restoring from sleep and hibernation are NOT Vista. I have a brand new Vista box at home that comes out of hibernation in less than 20 seconds, boots in less than 40, and both of those numbers how long until I have a fully usable desktop environment (HD has quieted down, etc).

In fact that is one of two features that has made me change my mind on Vista. Originally I went with the "it sucks!!!" crowd, having only tried out the betas on a few underpowered machines, but after using it on something decently new (I dropped all of $600 on a discounted Dell system, integrated video, 1GB RAM, AMD CPU, not exactly a powerhouse), I am quite happy with it.

And yes, Vista did break a few of my apps, and it has some mind numbingly stupid bugs (as does all software), but when it works, it works really well.

Problems with Ubuntu GUI. (3, Funny)

serviscope_minor (664417) | about 7 years ago | (#21092925)

The main problem with ubuntu is the interface. It doesn't come with ratpoison installed by default. Then, you have to dig around in config files to get it working. And, frankly the bash shell and vim editor are horribly bloated compared to lightweight counterparts, like sh and vi.

It's a GUI problem, so I'll just stick to Vista... oh. Never mind.

Why Vista Security is like the TSA. (5, Informative)

mmclure (26378) | about 7 years ago | (#21092943)

At work, I got a shiny new machine. Since we need to certify some of our products with Windows Vista, we designated it the Vista certification machine. So far, so good.

We use the MKS Toolkit software suite to simplify several tasks while developing on Windows. Everything seemed to work fine, until I had to use patch to apply a diff to some sources. As soon as I typed

        patch -p0 foo.diff

at the command prompt I got a pop-up window from Vista asking permission to run the executable. If I answered "yes, go ahead" instead of running the program in the same command prompt window it popped it up in another command prompt which promptly disappeared. And, apparently, did absolutely nothing to the files that were supposed to be patched. Experimentation shows that even

        patch --help

pops up the dialog and fails, so it isn't a permissions problem on the files to patch. So I say to myself, "Myself, we're a revision or two back on MKS Toolkit, and this is not the Vista-certified version - let's try another patch.exe." So I go get the GnuWin32 version of patch.exe. I put it first on the PATH, and try again. Another pop-up. I answer yes, and not only does patch run in a window that disappears, but it GPFs as well.

At this point, I'm pissed. But suddenly the penny drops. I rename the MKS toolkit patch.exe to ptch.exe and type

      ptch --help

which produces a nice help message. Trying on the original diff causes the required files to be patched correctly.

Apparently the Windows Vista User Access Control considers patch.exe to be a forbidden executable name. I investigated further and the only way to disable this functionality appears to be to completely turn off UAC, which I did immediately.

But there you have it - Windows Vista's vaunted security is about as logical and effective as banning water bottles in carry-on luggage.
 

Apples and Oranges (2, Insightful)

LingNoi (1066278) | about 7 years ago | (#21092999)

By just reading the title I can tell you right now that there is no way you could compare Vista to Gutsy Gibbon. Why?

Microsoft Windows Vista is an operating system with a Desktop environment and a few extremely basic applications such as a drawing application, web browser and calculator program. Maybe a few other basic programs that I am missing.

Canonical Ubuntu - Gutsy Gibbon is an operating system with the option of two Desktop environments and over 10,000 applications. I think there are around 45,000 deb files but all of those aren't programs. These applications include a web browser, graphics 3D and sound manipulation programs, games, photo and music management, office suite (out of the box), the list could go on.

With that in mind any comparison would be useless..

Measure by security? You can't because Ubuntu has vastly more applications that could have potential holes. I saw a chart that showed Vista with less security problems but look at the information above, it's obvious that Ubuntu has (possibly) more security holes its software is 100's times bigger then Microsoft's offering.

There are other things that you could possibly compare with but you have to keep in mind the above information and you'll realise that Windows and Ubuntu are quite different even if they are both operating systems. They are both produced, run and distributed in different ways. This means there is a lot of mis-understanding about Linux and distributions in general.

In any case I hope people who dislike previous versions of Ubuntu try it out again, especially if you downloaded breezy badger or older. If you like a windows look then download a version of Kbuntu. I started using Ubuntu when Breezy came out and not much worked on my laptop, but I am currently running an older version of Ubuntu (Feisty) and my laptop works out of the box. I can't wait to try out Gutsy.

If you love using software give it ago. ^_^

Ubuntu gets out of the way (2, Interesting)

bendodge (998616) | about 7 years ago | (#21093025)

Ubuntu goes out of its way to get out of your way... Vista goes out of its way to be Vista and enforce the Vista way.
This is very, very true. I'm using Kubuntu right now, and I don't "feel" like I'm "using" an OS. I mean, it just seems like I'm using a computer to run programs. On Vista, (which I thankfully only have to use when fixing some PCs) I am constantly reminded that I am running Vista.

Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubuntu (2, Interesting)

doyoulikeworms (1094003) | about 7 years ago | (#21093053)

Dual Screen.

Yeah, yeah... I know there are dual screen solutions for Linux, but none of them work correctly! Either my cursor will become garbled up, or the system will simply crash on reboot. Just an all around pain. Automatic, simple multiple display support would do wonders for Linux, IMHO.

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu (1)

agm (467017) | about 7 years ago | (#21093093)

I've been running triple head for a couple of years now (on Gentoo) with minimal issues and before that was running dual head for a few years (also Gentoo) - without issues. (My only current issue is that Beryl/Compiz won't work with Xinerama).
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