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Netbeans 6 Dual-Licensed Under GPLv2, CDDL

kdawson posted about 7 years ago | from the drip-grind-caffeinated dept.

Java 239

Lally Singh writes "Interested in the new Netbeans 6, but didn't trust Sun's (already OSI-approved) CDDL? Sun just Dual-Licensed it under the GPL (v2) with Classpath Exception. Keep your karmic license purity and mix in all the (now compatible) GPL code you want. If you've been using Eclipse, Netbeans 6 is really worth a look. Lean, well-featured, and fast."

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First (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153453)

Coffee Grind.

Holy Fucking Shit! That's EXCITING News!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154045)

Holy Fucking Shit! That's EXCITING News that I had to know !! I am sooo glad I am a regular dipshit on slash dot so I can find out these holy fucking shit existing things before ANYONE else does, or ever will.

Dual license? (0, Troll)

4D6963 (933028) | about 7 years ago | (#21153469)

Wait, you can dual-license something? How does that work, I mean, for example if I license a program with both GPLv2 and BSD, do people who use my code have to make theirs GPL or not?

Re:Dual license? (2, Informative)

4D6963 (933028) | about 7 years ago | (#21153493)

Err, nevermind, the answer's in TFA (people choose the license they want) :-/

Re:Dual license? (5, Informative)

eht (8912) | about 7 years ago | (#21153499)

If it's your code you can license it however you want, for example MySQL is dual licensed under both the GPL and a Commercial license. Anyone can download the GPL version make their modifications and as long as they follow the GPL redistribute according to the GPl, or if they license the commercial version for a fee from MySQL AB they can basically release a closed source version all closed up.

If you were to dual license your code under the GPL and BSD people who wanted to redistribute modified code could follow either one they wanted, with BSD being one of the avaible choices they could close it up a lot if they so desired.

Re:Dual license? (1)

4D6963 (933028) | about 7 years ago | (#21153639)

So with dual licensing you can cover two different cases, right? But can you make it conditional, like, specify in your license statement that depending on certain conditions license A applies and else license B applies?

Re:Dual license? (4, Informative)

Morkano (786068) | about 7 years ago | (#21153941)

You can licence your code however you want, but if you make it conditional like that you could very easily make it incompatible with the licences they're based on, or open up loop holes, or make it not hold up in court or whatever.

The way they do it for MySQL and others is when you get it, only one licence applies. You choose which one you want to apply, but the choice of the commercial licence means you have to give them money. They're just giving you the ability to sell a product and keep the source closed if you're willing to pay for it.

Re:Dual license? (1)

Tim C (15259) | about 7 years ago | (#21154809)

Essentially, yes. The most common condition is that if you download it for free, licence A (typically the GPL) applies, while if you buy a licence from them then licence B applies (typically something that lets you keep the source to your product closed).

Re:Dual license? (3, Informative)

NevarMore (248971) | about 7 years ago | (#21153511)

In your example, the code derived from it has to be compatible with the GPL license OR the BSD license. Once code is licensed under one or the other its usually hard to go back, but one has to make a choice up front about it.

For example I can take some code I write and release it under GPL and my own for pay license. If someone pays for a copy they and I have to abide by my paid-license, if someone downloads it then they can do things with it as allowed by the GPL. This allows me to be flexible and support the needs of buisnesses (and pay my bills) while still supporting the community.

Re:Dual license? (1)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | about 7 years ago | (#21153787)

I don't think the user switching licenses later is as big of a problem as you suggest though maybe you mean something else. I don't think a developer would want to make it hard to move from a GPL to commercial license, though maybe want to discourage moving from commercial to GPL. It might be tough if you end up mixing the code from other sources, that's the only thing I can think of, but that's quite problematic anyway. I think the original intent was to allow the developer sell support for the app rather than having to make an open and closed source license setup.

The thing about the word NIGGER on slashdot. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153545)

If you browse at -1, you're going to see it, you niggerloving tards.

Better set your filters at 0 or higher, or you're going to see NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER everywhere you look.

If you hate seeing NIGGER, better change your filter preferences NOW, bitch. You can't stop us, otherwise.

We own the -1 domain.

Sincerely, and with much niggery,
THE NIGGERISTS.

Re:The thing about the word NIGGER on slashdot. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153967)

What is this, Atlanta?

Can you dual-license... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153569)

...a big-lipped, watermelon-eatin', fried-chicken-lovin', thieving, criminal nigger?

Nigger nigger nigger kike chink spook!

Re:Dual license? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153597)

fork it. for example, a certain program is under GPL, its fork can't be made proprietary. the other fork of that program is under BSD, you can make its particular code proprietary, just because it's the same code now doesn't mean it will always be the same code. they'll go in different directions, one with the benefits to end-users that the GPL provides and the other's core code can still remain open while allowing companies to incorperate it into their software even if they don't open up their own code in this example.

Re:Dual license? (2, Insightful)

4D6963 (933028) | about 7 years ago | (#21153659)

In this case, instead of forking, couldn't you just put certain parts of your code under the GPL license, and put the parts of the code you want to let companies use and close under the BSD license?

They wouldn't even for a single license (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154355)

The GPL is not "viral". You can use it with non-GPLed code (and it doesn't change the
license on that code) as long as that code doesn't have any restrictions which aren't
in the GPL. The "viral"ness of the GPL is that you can't redistribute it under any other
terms -- including if you make derivative works and distribute those.

The FSF also takes an expansive view toward derivative works of their own software, so
that a program linked with their code, but not otherwise including it, would create a new
work covered by the GPL. The non-GPLed component would still be non-GPL if distributed
by itself. This is why some of their software, like glibc, is under the LGPL.

Re:They wouldn't even for a single license (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154745)

The "viral"ness of the GPL is that you can't redistribute it under any other
terms -- including if you make derivative works and distribute those.
That's almost missing the point - the "viral"ness is that you have the distribute *the entire* derived work under the GPL regardless of which parts came from the GPL code or not.

Only matters for Netbeans mods and add-ons, right? (1)

timeOday (582209) | about 7 years ago | (#21153471)

I don't think the Netbeans license ever made any claim on software developed within NetBeans, did it?

Re:Only matters for Netbeans mods and add-ons, rig (2, Informative)

bazald (886779) | about 7 years ago | (#21153533)

Right, NetBeans, like GCC, never imposed any license restrictions on the code generated.

Re:Only matters for Netbeans mods and add-ons, rig (1)

Architect_sasyr (938685) | about 7 years ago | (#21154075)

What program does? I'd not be surprised to find some of the .NET code generators did... I've just never heard of a program in use which does... honest question, not an attempt at humour.

Re:Only matters for Netbeans mods and add-ons, rig (3, Informative)

_merlin (160982) | about 7 years ago | (#21154113)

Visual Basic (pre .NET) and RealBasic place restrictions on the generated code, because the distribution terms have to be compatible with the distribution terms on the runtime engine that the executables will require.

Re:Only matters for Netbeans mods and add-ons, rig (2, Interesting)

AuMatar (183847) | about 7 years ago | (#21154475)

At one time, Visual Studio licenses said you couldn't use them to write a competing compiler. No idea if that has been removed or not.

Whitey is at it again! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153473)

It's shit like this that keeps us niggers on the streets without a job.

Re:Whitey is at it again! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153633)

This is why I enjoy reading at -1.

Tried it (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153483)

I've tried it, but it still runs like ass. It's sad that a great platform like Java has such a bad rep because of one toolkit (Swing).

I'm developing an app in Java, using the JOGL opengl bindings and it performs fantastically. Netbeans, on the other hand, runs like I have it on a 486, not a quad core Q6600 Intel processor.

I don't know how people compare Netbeans to Eclipse, actually feels native (because it IS native) and runs snappy as hell. Not only that, but Eclipse is great for python, javascript, c/c++ and many, many other non-java technologies.

Re:Tried it (1)

DAldredge (2353) | about 7 years ago | (#21153585)

How long does it take to start on your Q6600?

Re:Tried it (2, Informative)

siddesu (698447) | about 7 years ago | (#21153905)

around 25-30 seconds on a mobile pentium @ 1.5GHz (and 1GB RAM).
why?

Re:Tried it (2, Interesting)

Lally Singh (3427) | about 7 years ago | (#21153623)

This was NS 6? Both it and Eclipse take a bit to start up (A 2GB Macbook Pro), but NB doesn't lag as badly as Eclipse when I use it.

I've been using Eclipse for some time, but it's been getting on my nerves with speed/crash-happiness/bugginess. NB's treating me better these days.

OTOH, maybe Eclipse is *really* focusing on the Win32 experience, and the Mac experience is just crappy?

Re:Tried it (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153827)

Apple has their own customized version of Sun's JRE, and it tends to visually perform better than the standard Sun JRE - at least, the swing components do. Microsoft had a pretty zippy JRE too, but they got sued and had to stop.

Oh well.

Re:Tried it (2, Interesting)

try_anything (880404) | about 7 years ago | (#21153869)

I'm using Eclipse to develop an RCP app. The Eclipse platform provides a lot of functionality to build on, and aside from a slow start-up, it doesn't cause any sluggishness or instability in my app.

The Eclipse IDE, on the other hand, is infuriating. I have currently have workspaces named 2007-10-04, 2007-10-11, 2007-10-19, 2007-10-21, and 2007-10-25 because that's how often Eclipse irretrievably corrupts my workspaces. I've become so used to it that instead of deleting and replacing the corrupted workspace, I just create a new one and periodically delete all the corrupted ones.

Not to mention the constant out-of-memory and PermGen errors. I bumped up the startup values for memory and permgen, but I still have to restart Eclipse every couple of days.

Still, using the Eclipse IDE is an acceptable sacrifice to be able to program on the Eclipse platform and take advantage of its amenities. Next time I start a new project of this kind, I may try NetBeans (just to see if the grass is greener,) but I probably wouldn't consider writing a Java GUI app from scratch. I would write it on top of the Eclipse platform or something similar. It's worth it to get things like application update functionality for minimal work.

Re:Tried it (2, Interesting)

AdamInParadise (257888) | about 7 years ago | (#21154275)

I've been using Eclipse for thousands of hours, all the way back to Eclipse 2.0. I've never seen Eclipse corrupt its workspace. However, I've seen lots of badly-written plugins that do manage to mangle their own configuration files.

Are you sure that your issues at coming from Eclipse?

Re:Tried it (1)

try_anything (880404) | about 7 years ago | (#21154509)

Yes, absolutely. I maintain a separate Eclipse install as my target platform and don't run any of my own plugins in the IDE. The only non-Eclipse plugin installed in my IDE is PyDev. I keep my projects outside the workspace; all the config files for the plugins I develop are kept in the project directories and versioned. Nothing is kept in the workspace except internal state maintained by Eclipse and its plugins. When Eclipse gets borked, I just create a new workspace and recreate all my projects, pointing them at the same project directories and same files as with the corrupted workspace. In other words, nothing I create or manage has to be fixed to get Eclipse working again.

Some developers who have a lot to lose from throwing away their workspace state have gone to a great deal of trouble to figure out which Eclipse workspace files to delete to solve certain problems; they'll look at the error log and go fishing around in the .metadata directory to try to fix things. Deleting the entire .metadata directory fixes almost anything, but that's tantamount to creating a new workspace.

Re:Tried it (1)

try_anything (880404) | about 7 years ago | (#21154549)

Also, though I'm not sure it's relevant, I should mention that to test my app, I always export it rather than launching it from Eclipse. I started doing this a month ago for unrelated reasons, and it hasn't improved Eclipse's stability.

Re:Tried it (1)

blackpaw (240313) | about 7 years ago | (#21154755)

The NetBeans platform is available for NetBeans RCP apps as well. I haven't tried it personally but have heard good things about it.

Re:Tried it (4, Interesting)

greg1104 (461138) | about 7 years ago | (#21154137)

OTOH, maybe Eclipse is *really* focusing on the Win32 experience, and the Mac experience is just crappy?

It runs fine on both Win32 and Linux, but yes the Mac experience is crappy. Apple likes to brag [apple.com] about their Java support, but the OS X support for the SWT features needed to fully support Eclipse is spotty. Check out how long the infamous SWT_AWT not implemented [eclipse.org] bug took for them to resolve. That was a showstopper for a variety of Eclipse plug-ins, and it was open from 6/15/2004 to 4/20/2006. Things are better now, but there's still a subset of SWT_AWT not implemented that breaks some tools, like parts of the fairly popular MyEclipse: see SWT_AWT.new_Shell() unimplemented [eclipse.org] for that dreary mess, which well over a year old now.

While these specific bugs are unlikely to be the sources of your crashes etc., every time I read up on the state of Eclipse+Mac OS X I find myself distrusting that combination; the base platform seems unstable, and as you can see from these two the bugs that are found can sit for years before being fixed. Recent moves from Apple like pulling Java 6 from Leopard [symphonious.net] aren't comforting either.

Re:Tried it (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153657)

It's sad that a great platform like Java has such a bad rep because of one toolkit (Swing).
ORLY? It isn't its closed nature, its incredible slowness in all real-world tests, its poorly designed libraries, its tacked on generics, its amazingly lame fake closure support (anonymous classes), its lack of useful type safety (there's more to type safety than objects), its complete lack of delegates, its overly strict file structure requirements,...

I don't know how people compare Netbeans to Eclipse, actually feels native (because it IS native) and runs snappy as hell.
LoL, have you ever actually used Eclipse? I have (thanks, idiots who chose J2EE), and I have to tell you, I've never used a slower application. I'll Alt-Tab over from Outlook and then wait literally a minute for it to wake up and allow the native widgets to render. Thanks to the brain-dead "continuous compile" feature, it's the only application I've ever used that makes media players skip on a DUAL CORE machine.

Seriously, Eclipse is nigh unusable on a 2GHz dual core machine with 1GB of RAM. I suppose a quad core might make it "snappy" but on more "normal" hardware it runs worse than any program I've ever used. It's also one of the few Java programs I've used that manages to crash the virtual machine on a consistent basis.

Of course, since it's Java, it's always possible for Netbeans to be worse, so you could be right that Eclipse is "snappy" compared to Netbeans, but even WITH native widgets, Eclipse is one of the least responsive, slowest, crappiest IDEs I've ever had the misfortune of being forced to use.

Re:Tried it (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154217)

Wow! It sounds like java snuck in and knocked up your girlfriend while you were sleeping!

Re:Tried it (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153775)

It's sad that a great platform like Java has such a bad rep because of one toolkit (Swing).

As a programming language, Java is a complete joke. It's going to be COBOL all over again with idiots in the enterprise clinging to the sinking ship

Re:Tried it (3, Interesting)

jma05 (897351) | about 7 years ago | (#21153793)

> runs like I have it on a 486, not a quad core Q6600 Intel processor.

While Netbeans is not winning any performance awards, its performance is quite acceptable. I upgraded my processor only because I was unhappy with Netbeans performance. But mine should still be 3 times slower than a Q6600 and I think the performance is OK now. Perhaps there is something wrong with your VM memory settings or such?

> I don't know how people compare Netbeans to Eclipse, actually feels native (because it IS native) and runs snappy as hell.

The primary reason is that Netbeans has better out of the box support for Java standard frameworks. Swing and J2EE tools are still ahead of Eclipse offerings. If you can, use both. But if you are using a code only app such as your JOGL project, Netbeans does not offer a whole lot.

> Not only that, but Eclipse is great for python, javascript, c/c++ and many, many other non-java technologies.

Netbeans is catching up with all that and exposes a rich client framework just like Eclipse.

Re:Tried it (4, Interesting)

Lally Singh (3427) | about 7 years ago | (#21153999)

NB's ability to use your normal build system (ant or maven) as it's project file is what sold me. Oh, and I don't have to have this directory structure anymore:

eclipse
- 3.3
  - 1
  - 2
  - 3

Where each one is an installed copy of eclipse, and the lower numbered ones are copies that have fried themselves.

*And* a decent profiler built in :-)

Re:Tried it (1)

Call Me Black Cloud (616282) | about 7 years ago | (#21153915)

You tried NB 6? I run it on an average P4 with HT machine and it runs great. Our team is split 50/50 between NB and Eclipse and from what I've experienced NB not only runs better but is an easier app to use (my last project required we all use Eclipse so I'm very familiar with it).

Re:Tried it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154103)

I'd try it out but I upgraded to Leopard and Java has been deprecated.

Re:Tried it (1)

krelian (525362) | about 7 years ago | (#21154347)

I am really trying to like NB but the fact that on a windows box it take 8 seconds to open the file dialog makes me crazy.

Re:Tried it (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154735)

This is not a NetBeans Problem. It is a JDK 6.0 update 2 and update 3 problem. It takes JFileChooser forever to show up if you have zip files on your desktop or in the directory you are trying to navigate to.
JDK 6.0 update 1 and earlier versions don't have this problem.
here's the bug report for this:
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6578753 [sun.com]

WEHT cornbread? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153495)

I heard they had a fight.

Re:WEHT cornbread? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153581)

beans hit cornbread on the head :(

Go Competition (1)

hollywoodb (809541) | about 7 years ago | (#21153497)

I haven't really seen anything exciting from the Eclipse camp lately. Maybe I haven't been looking hard enough, but I hope that the continued development of a GPL alternative (NetBeans) keeps Eclipse from stagnating.

Personally I still use vim, but I haven't worked on a project large enough to cause me to want a full IDE like Eclipse or NetBeans yet.

Re:Go Competition (1)

pjr.cc (760528) | about 7 years ago | (#21154431)

I too still use vi/vim a fair bit. I LOVE *LOVE* vi syntax.

On a side note though, eclipse and NB both have vi plugins - havent used either of them myself though.

Re:Go Competition (1)

mackyrae (999347) | about 7 years ago | (#21154481)

I must find these plugins! Typing anything without vim keytricks is annoying now, but vim is a bit difficult to navigate with 1000-line files. I still don't understand Eclipse to use it instead of vim though, and I've never used Netbeans. IDEs just remind me too much of Visual Basic class for me to be really enthusiastic about them, and I like the simplicity of vim (the most complex IDE I like is BlueJ :p)

Re:Go Competition (1)

cerberusss (660701) | about 7 years ago | (#21154785)

vim is a bit difficult to navigate with 1000-line files
What exactly do you find difficult? Some tips:
1) You can set markers with 'm' and recall them with the backtick. For instance [esc]ma will set marker "a", then `a will jump back to that point
2) You can do [esc]:300 to jump to line 300

Re:Go Competition (2, Interesting)

MemoryDragon (544441) | about 7 years ago | (#21154899)

Depends on where your main focus is, Netbeans 6 is really exciting full ruby/rails tooling within the ide, the visual webpack simply is fantastic for small webapps and the integrated jpa support also is not too shabby. I have been using MyEclipse for years, but Netbeans slowly with every release becomes more and more a strong competitor to the Eclipse area, also mainly due to the fact that if you want something decent in eclipse you have to pay, and even then you run into the myriads of bugs the WTP is. WTP has hurt Eclipse more than anything else, and if they cannot get their act together qualitywise, Eclipse one day will be dead in the JEE area. For now it still has the credits of the incremental compilation and excellent refactoring, but if you are forced to use the WTP run as fast as you can.

Netbeans (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153503)

what netniggers eat as a staple.

Re:Netbeans (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153977)

Correction. That should be Netbeaners

Netbeans are crucial (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153513)

as is NetRice.

let's save NetAfrica and all its NetNIGGERS.

mod me down if you're a racist who hates blacks!

Re:Netbeans are crucial (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153913)

I also hate niggers.

Fuck you, nigger. You're not robbing me.

v2? (1, Flamebait)

larry bagina (561269) | about 7 years ago | (#21153523)

interesting. Sun's aware of GPL v3 and what it means (eg, they have discussed licensing open solaris as GPL v3 to prevent code from being used by linux). I'm guessing they don't want to give up their patents just yet. Don't forget they paid SCO.

uh.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153753)

or it could just be that Sun has seen that the community as a whole is skeptical of GPL3 and the license incompatibility mess that surrounds it and has said "well, we may as well release this gpl2'd for now; we can relicense it as gpl3 later if that's expedient"

Re:v2? (1)

eviltypeguy (521224) | about 7 years ago | (#21154177)

interesting. Sun's aware of GPL v3 and what it means (eg, they have discussed licensing open solaris as GPL v3 to prevent code from being used by linux). I'm guessing they don't want to give up their patents just yet. Don't forget they paid SCO.


Bzzzt. Wrong. The GPLv2 has an implicit patent license; the GPLv3 has an explicit; there is not really a large difference as far as licensing patents that go with the code is concerned. In Sun's case, it would be the same.

Also, they didn't "pay sco" in the way you are implying; they *licensed* technology from SCO that they needed to support their customers since they were *legally* bound to do so. Let's not twist the truth so far shall we?

differences? (1, Insightful)

bwy (726112) | about 7 years ago | (#21153551)

At this point, Eclipse is a mature, stable and feature-rich IDE with a healthy plugin community to boot.

For someone who has been using it for years (I switched from IDEA a while back), it would take a lot to cause me to switch at this point. Developers end up making a pretty big investment in fine tuning an IDE for complex development environments, and there are so many little details around every corner that take time to uncover and learn.

I should qualify this by saying that I'm perfectly able to swap if a new job required it. And if I were doing HelloWorld, single project type stuff it wouldn't matter in the slightest. But once you get a dozen or so interdependent projects in your workspace and you get everything running like a well oiled machine and don't go around thinking "I really wish this piece of junk could do X, Y and Z".... well, its a tough sell.

Re:differences? (1)

jeevesbond (1066726) | about 7 years ago | (#21153661)

For someone who has been using it for years (I switched from IDEA a while back), it would take a lot to cause me to switch at this point. Developers end up making a pretty big investment in fine tuning an IDE for complex development environments, and there are so many little details around every corner that take time to uncover and learn.

It's probably not for you then! Having run both the big advantage of Netbeans is that it's smaller and faster than Eclipse. As someone just starting out with Java Netbeans was great because it didn't require much setup, did most of the user friendly stuff of Eclipse (code hinting), but lacked the bloat.

Certainly Eclipse provides more customisation opportunities, but not everyone needs that. Netbeans is a great 'starter' Java IDE. Personally my editor for everything textual is Vim, so that's what I'd end up with having learnt the language anyway.

Re:differences? (2, Informative)

Spikeles (972972) | about 7 years ago | (#21154311)

Personally my editor for everything textual is Vim
Then you would love this [sourceforge.net] and this [satokar.com]

it's the best Ruby IDE there is (3, Interesting)

crayz (1056) | about 7 years ago | (#21153697)

The Netbeans 6 dev/beta releases have been quickly becoming the best Ruby/Rails IDE, bar none. Used to be Eclipse/RadRails for Windows/Linux, and Textmate for Mac. Netbeans has completely blown Eclipse out of the water for Ruby development as Aptana+RadRails has stagnated. Textmate isn't really an IDE to begin with, it's quite a unique and useful text editor. But the pace and quality of Netbeans Ruby support would be very tough to match, so even many hardcore Textmate Mac users have switched to Netbeans

Along with JRuby and Glassfish Rails, Netbeans is proving that Sun is dead serious about being the best Ruby game in town. They've got competitors in all three areas, but they are quickly becoming a major force in the Ruby community

Re:it's the best Ruby IDE there is (1)

krelian (525362) | about 7 years ago | (#21154363)

And the latest PDT [eclipse.org] and Pydev [sourceforge.net] make Eclipse the best (free) IDE for PHP and Python development.

Re:differences? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154171)

> Developers end up making a pretty big investment in fine tuning an IDE

That is exactly why I gave-up on GUI IDE's completely like most programmers I know. My last attempt at using an IDE was with Eclipse. It was horrible on even a four CPU system w/ 4Gbytes of RAM (a huge amount for the time). I went back to where I started, using the UNIX IDE. Yes, UNIX is an IDE. UNIX got a lot of things right many years ago. Why fight the latest complete piece of crap IDE of the week when you can use a good one that has survived the test of time?

I still can't believe people are pushing Netbeans. I have to use it on a coworker's system every few weeks, and even with a very fast system I can still type faster than Netbeans can handle it. It's really sad when $3k in 2007 still won't handle keyboard input as fast as a $199 C64 in 1983. The thing is almost as slow as the VisualStudio garbage. With our (admittedly) accounting system written in .NET, it takes VS over 20 minutes to load. These new IDE's are a complete embarassment to computing.

Re:differences? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154257)

You mean that to type a lot of code per minute is a goal? In my company, we call this sh*tting code and we don't trust it.

Re:differences? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154505)

I didn't say typing a lot of code was the goal.

It's just that a text editor should keep-up with professional programmers that can type >90 WPM. Between working with program managers on specs, meetings, code reviews, and other BS I only get about an hour a day to really program. I don't want to spend a good part of that hour waiting on a bloated GUI IDE to either load or to play catch-up with keyboard entry.

It's the same reason you see programmers use elm or pine for e-mail rather than Outlook.

GUI Builder (4, Informative)

rpp3po (641313) | about 7 years ago | (#21153629)

Netbeans is very stable and mature platform. There's nothing to bitch about. Eclipse on the other hand offers much more comfort concerning plain editing and refactoring tasks. Additionally it is part of a much more attractive ecosystem.

Still there is one thing where Netbeans beats every other Java IDE easily: The matisse GUI builder is really fun to work with! For Java there's nothing even close. And for that alone Netbeans has a very well founded raison d'être. If it's GPL now, lets wait and see how long it takes for Eclipse to absorb that great tool. There's already a commercial port for MyEclipse, but it's not free or usable on vanilla Eclipse, yet.

Re:GUI Builder (1)

postmortem (906676) | about 7 years ago | (#21153705)

Maybe they'll consume it, but that still doesn't mean that wise decision-makers in Eclipse Project are going to decide to include the new Visual Editor in basic download distribution. Instead, they might decide to bury it deep down on updates server as it is now with Visual Editor.

Re:GUI Builder (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153727)

But Eclipse isn't licensed under GPL. IBM already couldn't integrate Qt in Eclipse because of license issues.

Re:GUI Builder (2, Informative)

atehrani (785410) | about 7 years ago | (#21154847)

Not to mention UML (two way), Profiling, Visual Web development, complete JEE support. What comes "out of the box" with Netbeans is impressive. I also find Netbeans far more intuitive than Eclipse (I never liked their perspective concept). Startup can be a bit sluggish, but that's really not a deal breaker. People should honestly try it out; profiling is wonderful! Helps you find your bottlenecks and those pesky resource leaks. For FREE!

i quite like it... (1)

pjr.cc (760528) | about 7 years ago | (#21153635)

Well, i like netbeans 5.5.1 anyway. When i downloaded 6 (a little while ago, i think it was m2 or something?) i was most annoyed with the lack of ability to develop c/c++ apps (or at least, the extensions from 5.5.1 hadnt been moved across yet).

Having said that, i only use it for c/c++. I'd use it for php if it had a plugin worth using. I used to use eclipse for c/c++/php but these days i use gleany for php. I used to like eclipse, but eventually i just got annoyed with it and retired it.

Re:i quite like it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153715)

C/C++ support is built in - just download the full version.

Re:i quite like it... (1)

JonLatane (750195) | about 7 years ago | (#21154083)

Well, if you take ten seconds to look at the download page [netbeans.org] for NetBeans, you'll notice not only have C/C++ tools been moved, but they've got convenient packages for your needs.

Re:i quite like it... (1)

pjr.cc (760528) | about 7 years ago | (#21154383)

As i said, last time i looked which was sometime ago, it wasn't available. But i wasn't planning to try it again until 6.0 gets out of beta.

5.5.1 + c++ = working pretty well. So the desire to mess with it is quite limited unless i stumble on a bug which halts my ability to code.

My original point was more that 5.5.1 was quite good and 6.0 is likely to become as good which is why i moved from eclipse to it for c/c++ dev work.

Sun isn't committed to GPL (-1, Troll)

IGnatius T Foobar (4328) | about 7 years ago | (#21153761)

As nice as Sun makes it sound, they really aren't fully committed to the GPL. They only seem to use the GPL when it suits them -- in other words, when they are pushing a piece of software that operates in a space that is already commoditized and has a true open source competitor running away with their market share. Witness what happened with Java -- they only moved to GPL when competitive JVM's were about to move on without them. Compare to ZFS, which contains some true value and innovation, and so they are avoiding the GPL with the specific goal of keeping it out of Linux.

If Sun was truly committed to free software, they would use the GPL on everything because in a true free software space it doesn't matter if your customers mix-and-match the pieces. Sun's current approach is two-faced -- much like Microsoft when it comes to vendor-neutral standards (they push for "open standards" in areas where they don't have a monopoly, but they push for the "customer's right to choose" a closed standard in areas where they do have a monopoly).

Re:Sun isn't committed to GPL (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21153813)

So what's wrong with the CDDL? It's OSI-Approved, based on the Mozilla Public License.

Re:Sun isn't committed to GPL (1)

Vexorian (959249) | about 7 years ago | (#21154129)

Lately even MS' anti GPL and pro software patents poison is OSI approved, though...

Re:Sun isn't committed to GPL (1)

postmortem (906676) | about 7 years ago | (#21153817)

..so is every other company playing with GPL...after all every company runs primarily for profit, not for benefit of mankind unless a) it brings profit b) it is benign side effect

Re:Sun isn't committed to GPL (3, Insightful)

nuzak (959558) | about 7 years ago | (#21153849)

Yeah I know it just sucks that Sun gives away millions of man-hours under the GPL but not every single last line of code they ever wrote. I mean who the hell do they think you are by not dedicating every resource they have to the service of free software instead of themselves?

Re:Sun isn't committed to GPL (4, Interesting)

bladesjester (774793) | about 7 years ago | (#21153871)

As nice as Sun makes it sound, they really aren't fully committed to the GPL. They only seem to use the GPL when it suits them

A company using a license only when it makes sense to do so? How terrible!

If Sun was truly committed to free software, they would use the GPL on everything because in a true free software space it doesn't matter if your customers mix-and-match the pieces

Let's get real here, folks. Making some of your software available as open source does not mean that you should have to make *everything* you create open source. I certainly don't. Some things are open source (all of the ones on my site at the moment are GPLv2 because I loathe the moral crusade the fanatic otherwise known as RMS is trying to get the world to join in with v3); some things are commercial.

I get so sick and tired of the GPL fanboys who think that everything else is evil. The people who own the code get to decide what they want to do with it, not you. Deal with it.

If they want to give it away, be happy that you got something new to use or play with. If they want to sell it, either buy it or don't, but for the love of everything decent, stop bitching about the fact that not everything is released under your favorite license.

I've known a lot of developers that have stopped writing open source software because they got sick and tired of dealing with the fact that no matter what they released, people bitched at them because it wasn't "free enough" or because not *ALL* of their software was open source.

The whole of the world doesn't want to be Stallman followers and, to be honest, I view that as a very very good thing because the man is off his rocker.

Re:Sun isn't committed to GPL (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154837)

-1 Troll???
At what point advocating for free software *on slashdot* became taboo?
At the same time, "el lobo" gets moderated +5 [slashdot.org] for clearly offtopic and offensive post.
My theory is that slashcode has some vulnerability for karma whoring that awards only the more vocal trolls with mod points recently. I know I haven't got mod points for like a year and haven't got meta-moderation opportunity for the last four months, in spite of constantly positive karma.

To quote John Carmack (4, Insightful)

boyter (964910) | about 7 years ago | (#21153783)

"When text editing is less then instant on a 3ghz machine you know something is very very wrong..."

Re:To quote John Carmack (1)

X0563511 (793323) | about 7 years ago | (#21154037)

Ah, there's your problem. The trojan is logging the keylogger, which is logging the other trojan.

Fixed it for you, needed a third trojan to glue it all together.

Re:To quote John Carmack (4, Insightful)

eviltypeguy (521224) | about 7 years ago | (#21154185)

If it was just text editing and not code hinting, folding, anti-aliasing, line counting, syntax checking, and a bunch of other things all at the same time -- I might agree with that. However, in this case, I think you're misusing John's quote.

Re:To quote John Carmack (1)

AHumbleOpinion (546848) | about 7 years ago | (#21154753)

If it was just text editing and not code hinting, folding, anti-aliasing, line counting, syntax checking, and a bunch of other things all at the same time -- I might agree with that. However, in this case, I think you're misusing John's quote.

Not necessarily. If your *text editor* is doing all that then something may be very very wrong, especially in your conceptual design. If it is running poorly on a 3 GHz system, then the very very wrong may be in your code implementation. The LISA assembler on the 8-bit 1 MHz Apple II of the early 1980s had a built-in text editor that was doing real time syntax checking and code generation as you typed, there are a lot of CPU cycles between individual keystrokes. IIRC when you told it to assemble it was mostly going back through the generated code filling in code/data offsets.

Re:To quote John Carmack (1)

zlogic (892404) | about 7 years ago | (#21154777)

Visual Studio 2005 does all that, and also really cool stuff borrowed from Office - like a (non-annoying!) smart tag that offers to do refactoring if you rename some variable or function. Or a feature that shows useful information on critical runtime errors - e.g. which pointer caused a segfault and a link to MSDN explaining what a segfault actually is. And I've never seen Visual Studio use more that 80 megs of RAM (even though some parts are managed code), while Eclipse's typical RAM usage on my PC is well above 250 megs.
And line-counting? A CPU-hungry task? I've seen Borland Pascal do that on a 486 with 8 megs of RAM and no harddrive (loaded everything from a Samba server).

Re:To quote John Carmack (1)

TheNetAvenger (624455) | about 7 years ago | (#21154849)

If it was just text editing and not code hinting, folding, anti-aliasing, line counting, syntax checking, and a bunch of other things all at the same time -- I might agree with that. However, in this case, I think you're misusing John's quote.

If the computer was a 80386, then I would agree with you. None of the things you mention is all that resource intensive. Think about it, your computer can render 3D worlds with 30fps on just the CPU, you think text editing should be this slow because of some highlighting and anti-aliasing?

Re:To quote John Carmack (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154449)

You mean this guy: ..."when Carmack was 14, he broke into a school to steal Apple II computers, was arrested, and sent for psychiatric evaluation (the report mentions "no empathy for other human beings")...

Sounds like the comment is in character then.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Carmack [wikipedia.org]

In Iran (1)

kavehmz (755591) | about 7 years ago | (#21153837)

I love netbean but sun's policy about software export and limiting downloads in countries like Iran is so frustrating. :( As a absolutely non-terrorist ;), free software developer, I hope I can have free access to download it sometime. :P

Re:In Iran (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154205)

You mean that besides homosexuals, you are also short on open source software?

Re:In Iran (3, Informative)

Macrat (638047) | about 7 years ago | (#21154225)

Sun's policy?

Sun is a US company and by US law, Sun is not allowed to export to restricted countries.

Re:In Iran (1)

kavehmz (755591) | about 7 years ago | (#21154249)

Not all companies are doing so, but you are right,

Netbeans... (1, Troll)

ForumTroll (900233) | about 7 years ago | (#21153893)

Lean, well-featured, and fast.
Netbeans isn't even remotely close to being lean or fast. I downloaded Netbeans 6 Beta 2 a few days ago, and it's still one of the slowest applications I've ever used. Additionally, Swing still looks terrible, doesn't fit in with the desktop, and has horrible font rendering.

My initial response (0, Flamebait)

Max Littlemore (1001285) | about 7 years ago | (#21154447)

Lean, well-featured, and fast."

Hahahahahahahahahaahaha!.

Lean, wel-Hahahahahahahahahaha!

Wait - wait - fas-Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Thanks kdawson, you made my day. Should have given it that foot icon though....

Careful there. . . (5, Funny)

ookabooka (731013) | about 7 years ago | (#21153907)

If you've been using Eclipse, Netbeans 6 is really worth a look.

Also, if you've been using emacs, vim is worth a look. Vim is lean, well-featured, and fast.

the difference in my mind. (1)

pjr.cc (760528) | about 7 years ago | (#21154437)

The biggest difference in my mind between eclipse and NB is really external developement.

When you look at the wide variety of extra functionality that exists (through plugins or whatever) for eclipse v's NB the difference is huge. Not only do 3rd parties take eclipse and build an IDE out of it (palm did that, but theres ALOT more than just palm), but the thousands of plugins available for eclipse are impressive. Hopefully the GPL license will mean NB starts getting more plugin dev from third parties because its a nice IDE IMHO.

On performance though - both are relatively chunky editors, but i do find NB faster than eclipse.
I can feel the "lag" in both too though, if i open something in gleany/gphpeditor/vim i notice the difference between it and either NB/eclipse for typing lag. Its only milliseconds, but its still noticable.

Having said all that, the plugins used with either can vastly affect performance! the original php plugin for eclipse (or really it was an entire download of eclipse with php functionality added in originally and probably still is) it was dog slow compared to the eclipse i used for c/c++ dev work.

Re:the difference in my mind. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154559)

Its only milliseconds, but its still noticable.
Sorry, you are a brilliant computer, but you just failed the Turing Test. Please keep practicing and post again, you'll eventually get it!

wasting office hours (2, Insightful)

tventiethfret (984006) | about 7 years ago | (#21154565)

I've never used a java IDE. I know nothing about software licences. I dont know why i just went through all the comments on this page. :(

Re:wasting office hours (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21154621)

I've never used a java IDE. I know nothing about software licences. I dont know why i just went through all the comments on this page. :(

Not to mention why the hell you bothered to post about it. You are truly an enigma, tventiethfret.

Netbeans vs. Eclipse...again (2, Interesting)

epistemiclife (1101021) | about 7 years ago | (#21154843)

I think that this argument is pointless. I've used both Eclipse and Netbeans extensively for Java and C++. Now I use Netbeans, because I think that it's more pleasant to use, and it has features which appeal to me personally. However, some people like Eclipse, and that's fine. Eclipse's high customizability (lack of structure) annoys me. Some complain that Netbeans is "slow," but it really isn't. Yes, it takes about .1 seconds for the context-sensitive code-completion to pop up, but I frankly don't know any people who code faster than their IDE. If that is the case, then the code isn't very complex and such people probably don't need any IDE at all. Neither Netbeans nor Eclipse can reasonably be considered "lean," but neither are they the clunkers that some would have people believe. Those people probably haven't used it in 6 years. Both computers and Java have gotten faster since then.
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