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LucasArts, BioWare Announce Partnership

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the just-announce-it-already dept.

Role Playing (Games) 164

Given the swirling rumours of a KOTOR MMOG, it should come as no surprise that BioWare and Lucasarts have announced they're teaming up for a project. They don't give any really concrete details, other than to say it is 'a ground-breaking interactive entertainment product'. They've also "launched a cobranded Web site, www.LucasArtsBioWare.com. 'Through our previous collaborations, we know that BioWare has an impressive ability to blend gripping stories with technological advancements, and we believe that our upcoming product will deliver an experience that will span the traditional boundaries of video game entertainment,' LucasArts president Jim Ward said in a statement. "

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KotOR2 (2, Insightful)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173605)

Maybe they'll actually put out a complete game this time.

Re:KotOR2 (2, Informative)

MuNansen (833037) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173701)

BioWare didn't make KotOR 2.

Re:KotOR2 (1)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173727)

That's why I'm hoping for a complete game this time, cause it's not Obsidian. If it was there wouldn't be a chance in hell.

Re:KotOR2 (1)

Futile Rhetoric (1105323) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173949)

The responsibility for Knights of the Old Republic 2 being unfinished lies squarely on LucasArts' shoulders, not Obsidian's.

Re:KotOR2 (2)

king-manic (409855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174027)

The responsibility for Knights of the Old Republic 2 being unfinished lies squarely on LucasArts' shoulders, not Obsidian's.
The publisher did push it out too early. Bioware is known not to bow to publisher pressure and has a "when it's done" mentality... not as hardcore as Blizzards but still very prominent trend.

Re:KotOR2 (1, Redundant)

microAmp (962296) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173709)

KoToR2 developed by Obsidian Entertainment not Bioware. ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_II:_The_Sith_Lordsb [wikipedia.org]

Re:KotOR2 (2, Interesting)

bazald (886779) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174007)

I hope Obsidian Entertainment isn't adversely affected by BioWare's latest deals with EA and LucasArts. I'm one of the (few?) people who actually enjoyed KoTOR II and am actively looking forward to Team Gizka [team-gizka.org] 's restoration mod. As Obsidian Entertainment has used technology developed by BioWare for some years now, I just hope BioWare manages to maintain their close relationship.

Re:KotOR2 (0)

Monk Who Says Ni (1075173) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173859)

Your lack of faith disturbs me.

Re:KotOR2 (1)

MooseMuffin (799896) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175479)

How can you possibly misquote this line? And on slashdot no less.

Re:KotOR2 (1)

Monk Who Says Ni (1075173) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175513)

Extreme distraction, mostly. I was just as amazed when I came back to check the thread and found the need to merge my face with my keyboard. Truly, that I have not been struck down by some act of the heavens astounds me.

Re:KotOR2 (1)

meringuoid (568297) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174921)

Maybe they'll actually put out a complete game this time.

You will find the Internet is full of surprises. At long last the community effort to restore the missing ending is nearing completion [team-gizka.org] ; it appears that the main functionality is fully armed and operational, although there are a few exposed thermal exhaust ports they're working to clear up before the public release.

Re:KotOR2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21176573)

I just hope that Lucasarts actually lets the company finish the product this time. The last 5+ years it seems like most of their signature products are released half done (Kotor 2, SWG) or just stunk (battlefield).

SWG for example had the best crafting system of any MMO. It was well done. If the rest of the game was up to this level it would have been great. But the civil war was non-existant, game was buggy as hell, the commando class was completely unplayable at launch, it had very little Star Wars feel to it, etc.

KotoR 2 was a complete rehash of the first and after you got to a certain point it just felt like it "ended." Like it was 40-45 minutes into Law and Order and it just stops.

ground breaking? (1)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173679)

a ground-breaking interactive entertainment product
As in a star wars mmo that doesn't suck ass?

Re:ground breaking? (4, Interesting)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173969)

Gotta love a group of six guys, five with laser blasters and one with a flamethrower, surrounding a dog in the wilderness and shooting it for sixty seconds to get it to die.

"But you have to have a challenge!"

Yeah, has any animal smaller than a skyscraper ever been a challenge to a guy with a gun or lightsaber in Star Wars? What? No?

Then leave the wilderness crap out of it, thanks. Elephant-sized animals should go down to one blast, like a level 1 critter in World of Warcraft. This is Star Wars, not reskinned EverQuest.

And we won't even get into the issue of a Jedi being either weak but omnipresent among players, something you have to spend months unlocking, or hard to unlock and weak. Good luck solving that issue.

Re:ground breaking? (2, Insightful)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174189)

And we won't even get into the issue of a Jedi being either weak but omnipresent among players, something you have to spend months unlocking, or hard to unlock and weak. Good luck solving that issue.
I can only think of a couple real solutions.

1. Simply don't allow anyone to be a Jedi.

2. Create a limited number of Jedi "slots" based on the population of the shard/realm. Like say for instance only .5% of the population can be Jedi. It would require both time and skill to become a Jedi. Jedi would be quite powerful - but the downside to becoming a Jedi would be that you could die permanently, creating an open slot for someone else to become a Jedi. Or at least be reverted to a "normal" character upon death or something like that, though I prefer the "permanent death" potential. Risk vs. reward.

Re:ground breaking? (2, Insightful)

rhombic (140326) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174395)

Probable results for your solutions:

1. Nobody buys the MMO, as everybody wants to play a Jedi. Game fails

2. People buy the MMO, because they think they can become Jedi. They find out that they have to be hardcore to become Jedi
          2a) Casual gamers quit, game fails b/c revenue from hardcores isn't enough to keep it open
          2b) Casual gamers complain until Lucasarts forces Bioware to let everybody become Jedi

The problem is, Jedi are rare, and have power on a level way above "normals" in the Star Wars universe. Everyone's a fan of the Jedi, so everyone wants to play them. So for an MMO, you either have to nerf Jedi, make it nearly impossible to become one, or accept that everybody can be one & the universe turns into "City of Jedis". Sony tried all three w/ Galaxies, how's that working out for them?

Star Wars is a great setting for a single player game, but I'll be astounded when somebody makes a successful MMO out of it. It's like LOTR if everyone wants to play Gandalf.

Re:ground breaking? (1)

king-manic (409855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174453)

1. Nobody buys the MMO, as everybody wants to play a Jedi. Game fails

2. People buy the MMO, because they think they can become Jedi. They find out that they have to be hardcore to become Jedi
                    2a) Casual gamers quit, game fails b/c revenue from hardcores isn't enough to keep it open
                    2b) Casual gamers complain until Lucasarts forces Bioware to let everybody become Jedi
Or you make every PC a jedi and make different types of jedi and make normal people NPC's or cannon fodder. Almost everyone wants to be a bad ass jedi so let them. You make your money fulfilling peoples wishes not ignoring it or making it hard.

Re:ground breaking? (3, Informative)

rhombic (140326) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174529)

Making everybody a Jedi was Sony's last gasp w/ Galaxies. At that point it feelt so non-Star Wars-ish (i.e. City of Jedis) that everybody got bored and left. I think many players (esp. casual players) wish to be a Jedi as seen in the movies-- i.e. with cool powers that very, very few people around you have. That don't fly in a MMO.

Re:ground breaking? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21174803)

Or you could not deal with Jedi rarity at all by having the perfect setting for it.

KOTOR takes place 4000ish years before the original trilogy. Jedi are *plentiful* - there are entire bases / planets chock full of all sorts of different jedi (even neutral ones!) Every player can be a jedi without violating the lore.

Also, taking place this long before the original trilogy opens up the possibility of some very interesting story arcs that can be safely insulated from Lucas's Vision(tm) for the movies.

Re:ground breaking? (1)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174939)

Yeah, but that still doesn't deal with how powerful Jedi are. So everyone can become a Jedi after about 3 to 6 months of playing (a typical amount of time for someone to hit max level and equipment in most MMOs). So we can expect by 6 months after release to have thousands of Jedi running around, one-shotting the biggest bosses, ripping down big buildings with the force, obliterating everything in their path, etc. Or did you mean fake Jedi, as in SWG style? Either way I'll pass.

Re:ground breaking? (3, Insightful)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175161)

You're setting up a false dichotomy. General Grevious would require a lot of work for a jedi to take down, epic battles could be fought against hordes of sith, large beasts with lightsaber resistance (as seen in the expanded universe) could create challenges. If Boba Fett can beat Darth Vader, then mid-level bounty hunters should give low-level jedis problems. It's true that a lightsaber makes a significant number of encounters one-shots, but against a master or a large animal it's not a matter of hitting them once, it's a matter of wearing them down through swordplay.

As for ripping down big buildings, that's not very star-wars either. The biggest things we see being thrown around easily are girders. You can lift an x-wing with concentration, and that's it. The force has its limits, and in a world where it's plentiful, there are other ways to balance it.

Re:ground breaking? (1, Insightful)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175747)

You're setting up a false dichotomy. General Grevious would require a lot of work for a jedi to take down, epic battles could be fought against hordes of sith, large beasts with lightsaber resistance (as seen in the expanded universe) could create challenges. If Boba Fett can beat Darth Vader, then mid-level bounty hunters should give low-level jedis problems. It's true that a lightsaber makes a significant number of encounters one-shots, but against a master or a large animal it's not a matter of hitting them once, it's a matter of wearing them down through swordplay.
Well, part of the problem is that episodes I-III aren't entirely consistent (yeah, understatement, I know...) with IV-VI. General Grievous wouldn't be that difficult for a real Jedi in most situations. He's a machine. Use the force to push him off the edge, rip his limbs off, crush him into scrap metal, rip down stones to smash him, etc. etc. He's a lot smaller than an X-Wing. Yeah yeah, you can make up all kinds of "reasons" [wikia.com] why this or that boss isn't vulnerable to the force, light-sabers, etc. but then you're right back to fake Jedi. The simple truth of the matter is, in it's pure original form, the only thing that can block a lightsaber is another lightsaber, and the only thing that can block the force is the force. There are no other defenses. So that leaves us fighting Sith all the time. That would get old really quick.

As for ripping down big buildings, that's not very star-wars either. The biggest things we see being thrown around easily are girders. You can lift an x-wing with concentration, and that's it. The force has its limits, and in a world where it's plentiful, there are other ways to balance it.
Really? Yoda told us size doesn't matter with the force. So perhaps the reason we don't see more mass destruction of buildings, etc. is that the majority of the time when we see the Sith it's in their best interests to keep things intact, while Jedi simply don't behave that way. Or perhaps more likely, the story just worked better this way. Either way, if you unleash hordes of 12-year-olds with that much power over a virtual environment and no repercussions, well it doesn't take much to visualize what would happen.

Re:ground breaking? (1)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#21176425)

Really? Yoda told us size doesn't matter with the force.

I dunno. Yoda has been established as pretty much the most powerful Jedi at the height of the Jedi's power. Yet it required him to focus just on the X-Wing in ESB to move it out of the swamp.

Now, granted, I hear that in the novels Luke does some light-dark combo FTW bits, but it seems to me that Vader's "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force" bit is an expression of a "theoretical" upper limit, as opposed to a practical limit (or ability, depending on how you look at it).

Re:ground breaking? (1)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 6 years ago | (#21176681)

I dunno. Yoda has been established as pretty much the most powerful Jedi at the height of the Jedi's power. Yet it required him to focus just on the X-Wing in ESB to move it out of the swamp.
Yeah, but that was when he was damn near dead of old age. Also, in that scene you don't see him moving anything smaller with the force, therefore for all we know he would have needed as much effort to move a leaf or a grain of sand. According to Yoda, Luke's only limitation in regards to the size of the object was his own mind.

Re:ground breaking? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21177239)

I personally got the feeling that the time he spent concentrating was more meant as an example to Luke, rather than that it too him that long to do it. Remember, removing the X-Wing from the swamp was supposed to be Luke's final test, helping to prove that he'd learned all he could from Yoda, had reached a greater understanding of the force/peace of mind. But Luke was instead distracted by what was happening outside of his training, and when it became obvious he wasn't going to return focus to his studies, it was Yoda's last chance to set an example for him.

Re:ground breaking? (1)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174871)

I purposely didn't posit any specifics on what it would take to become a Jedi in option 2, because I haven't come up with any. But it seems to me it's really the only solution that's going to make a Star Wars MMO work, and I have faith that a good developer like BioWare can come up with a balanced system. Because as you said, if no one can be a Jedi lots of people will be disappointed, and won't by the game. But by the same token, everyone knows what a real Jedi is, and we also know that it simply won't work to have everyone be able to be a real Jedi in an MMO. Nothing would be a challenge for anyone, ever. There also wouldn't be too many buildings standing anywhere, as they'd be destroyed within minutes of being created. People would buy it, play it for a month, and move on to something else. So the alternative is to let everyone be a fake Jedi, except no one's going to be fooled because we've all seen the movies. The first time you stick your level 1 lightsaber into any other living being and it doesn't die instantly, all suspension of disbelief ceases.

This is the only option that they never tried with SWG, and I'd guess that's ultimately why it failed. Simply put, no matter how time-consuming you make it to become a Jedi, if you don't limit the actual number of possible Jedi, eventually everyone will be one. And if you make it so time consuming that the majority of people can't reach it by at least the 1 year mark, you probably won't have many people beyond a year anyway. Likewise, if you make it so difficult that most people simply don't have the skill to become one, you'll have multitudes crying and either getting their way or leaving, once again leading back to everyone being a fake Jedi, or having very few players. So they saw the inevitable and hastened it along, as well as their own demise.

Or possibly they're not making a Star Wars MMO at all, though that's a bit hard to believe at this point.

Re:ground breaking? (1)

xhrit (915936) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175221)

That is why you set your mmo in the old republic era, where there are 1000s ov jedis running around. Allow sith characters, with lots ov pvp, and make it hardcore so that characters can die.

By "BioWare" I assume you mean EA? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21175273)

Since BioWare cashed out to EA, I assume you mean "I have faith that a good developer like _EA_ can come up with a balanced system"

Re:By "BioWare" I assume you mean EA? (1)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175361)

Since BioWare cashed out to EA, I assume you mean "I have faith that a good developer like _EA_ can come up with a balanced system"
Yeah... I keep trying not to think too much about that. Hopefully EA will keep their grubby little fingers out of the pie.

Re:ground breaking? (2, Insightful)

Rolgar (556636) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175397)

What I'd be interested to see would be if each Jedi class player would be selected by a "Force Class GM" for their role playing ability. When somebody is selected, a fuller review (by 2 additional GMs) is performed before the player is selected to be eligible. The rest could then work as mentioned in the GP post. They are placed in the queue to become a Jedi/Sith when a slot becomes available, and they are notified that they are on the waiting list to become a Jedi or Sith, and how long they should expect to wait before they'll get their shot.

This should encourage behavior that would be conducive to having a fun SW MMO experience. Players on the waiting list would try to kill Jedi to open spots for themselves to move up the queue (such activity could be analyzed to verify the character doing the killing was acting in character, and the player be knocked down or off the list if it weren't.)

Likewise, Jedi/Sith characters that play out of character could have their characters revoked. That's not to say that a player shouldn't be able to wrestle with their conscience, but they shouldn't be allowed to do things clearly out of line of their character's basic ethos. So, if a Jedi starts to advance or use dark power skills, they should be watched and observed, maybe even questioned why by a Jedi GM.

This should raise the level of role playing in the game to improve immersion.

Note: I never played SWG, but I had a couple of friends that did.

Re:ground breaking? (1)

sdaemon (25357) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175763)

Dunno about everyone wanting to be Gandalf, but in WoW, roughly 70% of the alliance seems to be Night Elf hunters named some variant of "Legolas".

My favorite so far is "Superlegolas". Something about that one makes me giggle.

Re:ground breaking? (0)

aztektum (170569) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175863)

the thing about SWG is that, it's a shitty game even w/o the jedi. make a good game where Jedi are designed as an integral component from the ground up and then you might have a chance.

plus it wouldnt be such a big deal if jedi hadn't been turned into super heroes over the years

perhaps they werent depicted as so over powering in the OT because of fx limitations, but a Jedi to me doesnt mean everyone being able to blow sparks out their ass, or single handedly save the galaxy. i like to think of them more as sage old samurai type warriors in a sci fi world. yes they are gifted fighters and scholars and such, and SOME can shoot sparks, but the prequel trilogy reduced them to action figures (in fairness this representation was somewhat precipitated by EU content over the preceding years as well)

i don't think the jedi need to be playable as a uber class. they simply need to be different than a soldier class. Bioware did a damn good job with balancing them against the other team members (granted you could turn almost anyone into a Jedi) Sure a Jedi should be feared but come on they got owned by foot soldiers according to canon, all depictions to the contrary are nothing but marketing an image.

Re:ground breaking? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21174591)

> 2. Create a limited number of Jedi "slots" based on the population of the shard/realm. Like say for instance only .5% of the population can be Jedi. It would require both time and skill to become a Jedi.

3. Award it based on two factors: (1) a set of in-game, computer-trackable accomplishments, that demonstrate player skill and familiarity with game mechanics, and (2) a record behavior, as tracked and recorded by invisible in-game CSRs, that demonstrate that the player is likely to behave like a Jedi when the slot is awarded.

In most MMORPGs, the CSRs and GMs are popping in and out of the virtual world at random times. Most of the time they're invisible. Sometimes they're visible. Either way, they're actually in a pretty good spot to gauge if a player is an asshat or not.

The guy you want to award the Jedi slot to isn't the guy who's on 18 hours a day killing mobs. The guy you want to award the Jedi slot to is the guy who's on for 6 hours a day, but who takes half an hour a day to teaching n00bs how to kill mobs. Or seeing a random n00b getting in trouble with a mob a couple of levels too high, and watching the fight from a safe distance. Not kill-stealing, just hanging around, waiting to step in and either draw the aggro away, or to one-shot the mob to death if it comes too close to winning against the n00b.

There's no easy way to for a computer to track that sort of playstyle, but it's very easy for a human to recognize it, in particular because it's so rare.

Just imagine - Jedi that actually act like Jedi. Hanging around in the shadows, doing Jedi-like things when the opportunity presents itself, and then darting off into the wilderness.

(Dark Side Jedi? Just offer them the same sort of in-game mechanic, but require twice as many mobs ground, and maybe a "secret" based on a metric of 10:1 ratio of PVP-duels-offered-to-other-players to PVP-duel-requests-received-from-other-players. Assuming most duels are offered at random between friends, one would expect about a 50/50 ratio of duels-offered-to-other-players to duel-request-recieved-from-other-players. One would expect an aggressive "Dude, let's fight!" personality to offer more duels than he received. Conversely, one would rarely expect a player suitable for a "light side" Jedi character to consistently offer start fights.)

Re:ground breaking? (1)

badboy_tw2002 (524611) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174869)

That sounds like a lot of work for a CSR to be doing, but it does bring up an interesting idea of having MMORPGs with honest to goodness DMs. Of course, that's a lot of cost in running a game, and you've got a minimum wage dude with a lot of power running around. Also, is there round the clock survalence of these things? Who's watching the watcher? Still, as a side job, a professional MMORPG DM would be pretty neat. :)

Re:ground breaking? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21174245)

No Jedi class. Problem solved.

Re:ground breaking? (1)

Markus_UW (892365) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173983)

I dunno about this MMO thing... like BioWare isn't exactly an MMO sort of company. I seem to recall all of their games in the past being primarily of the single-player type (with the possible exception of NWN (which I played as exclusively single player, anyways)).

Re:ground breaking? (1)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175009)

Actually, they've been fairly open with the fact that they've been making an MMO for the past year (at least). The real question is, has it been a kotor-based one or an in-house ip (like a mass effect mmo) or something else? LucasArts also has other stories they could be doing too, so it could be a Mercernaries mmo, lost vikings, etc.

But speculation doesn't come from nowhere, and they haven't denied it (which, if they were a person, is as good as confirmation, but who knows?), so I'm thinking that some star-wars based mmo is the most likely candidate now that we know they're still working with LucasArts.

Well, think of it this way (5, Insightful)

Moraelin (679338) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175505)

Well, think of it this way:

1. Blizzard also wasn't known as a MMO company, heck nor as a real RPG company either, before WoW. What people wanted Blizzard to announce at the time was Starcraft 2 or maybe Diablo 3. People were actually massively disappointed when Blizzard announced a MMO. (For an admittedly extreme reaction, see the VG Cats strip where Aeris mugs the Blizzard guy that announced they'll make a MMO. I'm sure a few people fancied doing that.) It sounded like something they'll surely botch, and a waste of manpower which could have been better used for something they were good at.

Needless to say, it currently has about 20 times more players than Everquest at its peak, and EQ2 peaked even lower.

2. Actually, WoW is very much playable as a single player RPG too. It does have about twice as many quests for either faction than is needed to get a player to level 70, it has more story and actually better texts than, say, Morrowind, and has more content than 10 Oblivions or so. It's certaily not _the_ best single-player RPG, but it's better than a lot of stuff we were perfectly content with, and even with the monthly fees still it's more content/buck than most.

In fact, that's my main problem with it: over time it's become increasingly difficult to find a real group for anything else than an endgame raid. Oh, you'll find a level 70 guildmate who'll be happy to run your latest alt through the Deadmines. Or even a perfect stranger if you ask nicely. (God knows I too have ran perfect stranger newbies through a ton of low level instances just because they were polite and well behaved and said "please".) But that kind of group does nothing to me. I want to feel like I actually contributed something to that group, and not like, say, may support-character priest was twiddling his undead thumbs while a level 70 mage was nuking the NPCs in wholesale.

Anyway, it _is_ used as, basically, a semi-single-player game by the majority of the population. They group when they really have to, then bugger off back to playing single-player as soon as it becomes possible. (Let's just say that even 90% of the people who were swearing that the massive level-60 MC raids are the meat of the game, went back to soloing 60 to 70 as soon as the portal to the Hellfire Peninsula opened.) The average WoW player _is_ playing a single player game with some multi-user chat channels built-in. Sorta the same as Unreal Tournament included an IRC client, except this time it's available right during the game.

So basically, even if you're a SP player, don't discount it yet just because it's MMO. A MMO can also be a good single-player game, and I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware gets that part even better done than Blizzard. In fact, if anyone can dethrone Blizzard in that one aspect, Bioware is probably the safest bet.

3. Well, allow some of us SW nerds our moment of hope, will you? Some of us awaited the launch of SWG like it's the second coming of Obi Wan. Some people kissed their wives, said goodbye to their friends, and expected to never be seen again in RL once a SW MMO opens.

And, frankly, it only appealed to a minority in the first place and disappointed everyone else. Yes, the (old-style) SWG fans will point out that it had its advantages over other MMOs at the time, such as allowing more customized characters. And I'll concede that. It had some damn good idea. But the rest sucked more ass than the vaccuum toilets on the space shuttle. It was a SW game launched without spaceships _or_ jedi, for a start. And on the ground it was a baren sandbox that made some of us look back on even the old UO more favourably. It was a DIKU with graphics and a lot of computer-generated terrain. _Empty_ computer-generated terrain, where Raph Koster expected players to just create content by role-playing with each other... without even being given much tools or props for that. Add the constant bugs and heavy-handed dev/support team, and it wasn't much fun except for a minority of the most hardcore SW fans.

And then the NGE came by and made it even worse. God knows I didn't imagine that to be even possible, but they turned it into a lobotomized FPS with a _horrible_ interface, and nuked everyone's elaborately-personalized characters into something with less dimensions than a straight line. And rolled back a paid-for expansion pack too, just in case not enough people were pissed off. And that's scratching the tipe of the iceberg of all the suckiness that was the NGE.

So, you know, allow us to _dream_ of a fantasy world where someone _competent_ finally gets the franchise and turns it into what it should have been in the first place. Maybe a pipe dream, I know, but it's still a nice dream.

MMOG :) (2, Interesting)

BlowHole666 (1152399) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173711)

Maybe with Bioware writing the code instead of Sony Online we can get a good Star Wars MMOG.

Re:MMOG :) (2, Interesting)

SpeedyDX (1014595) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174039)

I wouldn't put it beyond BioWare to make something on the level of WoW, or perhaps even better. They've shown that they can make in-depth, gripping, epic RPGs in the Baldur's Gate series and NWN. They've shown that they can execute a cleaner, simpler style of play in KotOR. The sweet spot for an MMO lies somewhere in-between simple enough so anyone can pick it up, but with enough diversity so any two given people playing the same race/class can have completely different play-styles.

If Blizzard was able to strike that balance (for the most part, anyway), BioWare, with a vast amount of RPG experience under its belt, certainly has the potential to as well.

Re:MMOG :) (1)

BlowHole666 (1152399) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174119)

Also blizzard does not have a name like Star Wars in the title. Yeah War Craft is an household name and so is Star Craft but it does not compete with Star Wars. On that note I wonder if blizzard strikes back with a Star Craft MMOG?

Re:MMOG :) (1)

king-manic (409855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174515)

Also blizzard does not have a name like Star Wars in the title. Yeah War Craft is an household name and so is Star Craft but it does not compete with Star Wars. On that note I wonder if blizzard strikes back with a Star Craft MMOG?
Star wars fans don't necessarily overlap MMORPG fans. Warcraft fans were likely diablo fans which have a significant overlap. Star trek would have enough greater overlap because both MMORPG fans and Star trek fans apparently suffer from obsessive compulsive disorders.

Re:MMOG :) (1)

cthulu_mt (1124113) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174665)

The Star Wars Intellectual Property would be a big help in going up against Blizzard in the MMO market. Releasing a StarCraft MMO would probably be a bad counter by Bliz as to would more likely canabalize the WoW customer base.

There is room for more than one good MMO in the market, heck, the competition might drive Blizzard to make a better product.

What could possibly go wrong? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21173729)

A dead company and a company that beats dead horses for living...

What could possibly go wrong?

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (3, Informative)

russlar (1122455) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174373)

A dead company and a company that beats dead horses for living...

What could possibly go wrong?

PETA could find out and put a stop to the whole project.

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

tmosley (996283) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175321)

Yeah, but which is which?

I have to wonder (1)

GammaKitsune (826576) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173733)

How will they handle things like allowing players to be force users, or KOTOR's signature "Good and Evil" system? Assuming this is a KOTOR MMO, of course.

Re:I have to wonder (1)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173917)

they could have good/evil requirements for different factions, force users might have to start at a higher level (the user having already reached that level with another character), etc. What issues are you seeing exactly? Darth Vader was almost defeated by boba fett, General Grevious was able to fight multiple jedi, etc, so balancing is merely finding the levels at which these people are equal. Good and Evil has been avoided by most MMOs by locking people into factions, so if they were to make it so that they could choose their factions based on their alignment, which was fluid, it would create a very realistic (to the star wars universe) mmo. I feel good about it.

Re:I have to wonder (4, Insightful)

king-manic (409855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174619)

How will they handle things like allowing players to be force users, or KOTOR's signature "Good and Evil" system? Assuming this is a KOTOR MMO, of course.
I enjoyed KOTOR and KOTOR 2 but I always felt the alignment system wasn't good vs evil but good and jerk. I always felt their evil options weren't that natural. You usually got:

1- don't accept a reward: +2 light side 0 credits
2- accept reward: 0 light side 1000 credits
3- Eat his children and take his credits: 1000 credits +2 dark side +3 hp

I felt they could have nuanced it a bit.

Re:I have to wonder (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21174743)

Very true. I never feel like I have the option to play as a character that is evil, but pretends to be good, while all the while manipulating everyone else for his own ends. When I try to play that way, I end up being "good".

Yet some of these games actually have NPCs that pull that off.

Re:I have to wonder (3, Insightful)

meringuoid (568297) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175131)

I enjoyed KOTOR and KOTOR 2 but I always felt the alignment system wasn't good vs evil but good and jerk. I always felt their evil options weren't that natural.

I think the chief problem is that RPGs are classically driven by the quest-issuing NPC. He's the guy who stands around in the marketplace saying 'Oh, won't somebody help me', and who gives you a quest when spoken to. Most of the sidequests revolve around helping these guys out.

What's the dark side option going to be? Kill him on the spot and just take the reward, that's one way, but makes the dark side game rather short and uninteresting. Better is an option like 'Turn him over to the bounty hunters who are the cause of his troubles and get a larger reward'. KOTOR had a fair few decent dark options - sell the medicine to the profiteering gangster rather than the doctor, say. KOTOR 2 was better - Kreia had some rather nasty teachings to impart, if you let her.

But in the end, I'm with the Korriban storekeeper. Why does everyone get the idea that 'dark side' always has to mean 'hooligan'?

I miss the old LucasArts (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21173755)

You know, when they made good adventure games.
Now they just make star wars games.

Re:I miss the old LucasArts (1)

sckienle (588934) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174225)

Agreed; or at least go back to making games in more than just the SW genre.

Re:I miss the old LucasArts (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21174709)

I wish they'd made a Star Wars adventure game. Never understood why that didn't happen.

I miss the old LucasArts (2, Insightful)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174761)

You know, when they made good star wars games.

Now they just make bad star wars games.

Offcourse, if you are really old, you remember Lucasfilm Games as a flightsim company. Kids these days and their new fangled adventures. You want adventures, you go to Sierra.

Another company that went down the crapper.

Actually I have no idea if it was adventures or flightsim that came first.

Re:I miss the old LucasArts (1)

HazMathew (207212) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175389)

The closest thing to those oldies but goodies is the new Wii Adventure by Capcom: Zak and Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure. It actually reminds me of Gobliiins which was published by Sierra, but sort of along the same lines as the grand old Adventure games LucasArts and Sierra used to make.

Re:I miss the old LucasArts (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21177021)

i agree, i would like to see a comeback in the adventure game genre, and i think that Lucasarts would be the company to start it.

Penny Arcade reference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21173879)

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/10/24 [penny-arcade.com]

I played SWG why back when it was released (first mmog experience) - and it didn't seem bad at first, but then Sony seemed to randomly change things for no good reason ("game balance" ...lol) and then the "everybody is a Jedi" thing happened and I was out the door...

Re:Penny Arcade reference (3, Interesting)

BlowHole666 (1152399) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173935)

Yes the same happened with DAOC. They got bought out by EA :( and they made the game to easy. It was an honor to have a crafter, now they made it easy. They made it hard to be the best player, now you can solo your way to become maxed out and be the best. They gave the game away to the people who just want to play every now and then. Just so they could make a buck. Now DAOC is loosing users left and right for other games.

Re:Penny Arcade reference (2, Informative)

Kilraven (1101873) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175023)

DAoC was dying before the EA acquisition of Mythic (Thanks ToA!). DAoC is like an 80 year old on life support - someone needs to pull the plug.

Probably after the Warhammer release party.

Re:Penny Arcade reference (1)

BlowHole666 (1152399) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175127)

Yeah the plug is ready to be pulled. It is just easier to say it is EA's fault. They sure fucked up Westwood :)

Awsome (1)

flayzernax (1060680) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173899)

Lucus arts has some nifty tech/ILM good artists etc... Bioware makes solid games in every aspect! Hopefully they can reign in their lucas arts partners and get them with the program. Personaly... I never liked KOTOR or the other lucas arts games near as much as the original baulders gate etc...

** Crosses fingers and chants "XvT MMO" ** (4, Interesting)

Picass0 (147474) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173957)

Seriously Lucasarts. How long do we need to wait before you put out another X-Wing title? It's been eight years sinse the last one. Where's the love?

Re:** Crosses fingers and chants "XvT MMO" ** (1)

Guysmiley777 (880063) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174249)

Space Combat does not mix with MMO (very well). SW:G tried and failed, although I enjoyed JTL. Most MMO players abhor "twitch" game play and most twitch gamers abhor MMO treadmills.

Re:** Crosses fingers and chants "XvT MMO" ** (3, Insightful)

Chandon Seldon (43083) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174841)

So... why don't they release a (traditional twitchtastic) X-Wing title?

Re:** Crosses fingers and chants "XvT" ** (1)

radarjd (931774) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175217)

So... why don't they release a (traditional twitchtastic) X-Wing title?
Tell it! I would love to see even X-Wing v Tie Fighter with updated gfx. Of course, adding prequel ships would be sweet, too.

Re:** Crosses fingers and chants "XvT" ** (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21175503)

just tie fighter with updated gfx and engine please.. pretty please... dont have to change the story line or anything

maybe extra dream of supporting assignalbe axis so i can use all of them on my joystick...

please give us at least an updated rerelease

*begs*

Re:** Crosses fingers and chants "XvT MMO" ** (1)

Joe the Lesser (533425) | more than 6 years ago | (#21176175)

An X-Wing/TIE Fighter MMO is the holy grail of gaming.

The trick would be to concentrate on stable connections so you don't get 2 seconds of no user input and you die for reasonable specs.

But I'd spend a lot of money to ensure I had the best connection and cpu speed for such a game, and a lot for the game itself.

So much potential *drools*. I'd totally be like the chick in Indiana Jones and fall in the crevasse over this game.

Re:** Crosses fingers and chants "XvT MMO" ** (1)

ducomputergeek (595742) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175667)

I miss the days when WoW meant Week of War at the gaming Zone. But alas, the space fighter combat sim game genre seems to have passed with the end of the last Millennium. Same with flight sims too it seems. I mean look at the companies that are no longer around. Origin's gone, with it Wing Commander, Dymanix is gone and with it the Aces series of games. Volitition & Interplay, both gone and with it Freespace (although the code is out in OSS land and there are couple projects like Beyond the Red Line worth noting.)

I haven't heard much from Totally Games, Lawance Holland the creator of the Xwings series, since Bridge Commander.

What we'll get: Prequels (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21175779)

If Lucas puts out a new X-Wing what we'll really get is a Prequels infested version of it.

The Prequels are like a prison bunkmate, and they'll be staying around a raping your Star Wars memories for a long long time. There will be no F'ing way to ignore those, and Lucas will make damn sure of that.

X-Wing 2008 will be Pod Racing Extreme.
You'll have to deal with whatever proto-X-Wings Obi & Aanakin used in the prequels. You'll fit droids and clones not the Empire.
It will be all anal raping all the time.

Yeah, I loved X-Wing & Tie fighter.
How do you think I feel about the Prequels and Lucas now?

Bioware sequel? (-1, Flamebait)

AlphaDrake (1104357) | more than 6 years ago | (#21173981)

You mean Bioware is actually making a sequel to one of it's games without porting it to a substantially worse company? I actually wonder if new Bioware owner EA will affect this at all though...

Re:Bioware sequel? (1)

king-manic (409855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174097)

You mean Bioware is actually making a sequel to one of it's games without porting it to a substantially worse company? I actually wonder if new Bioware owner EA will affect this at all though...
Bioware is a developer, they don't decide which studio a sequel goes to. Lucas Arts did. Even then Obsidian didn't cock up KOTOR2 by themselves, what happened is for one reason or another lucasarts chose oblivion (likely cheaper) but pressured them to release before it was ready. Bioware didn't give in to such pressure in the past. this may be different now that they're EA Bioware.

Re:Bioware sequel? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21174573)

FYI, LucasArts wanted Bioware to work on KOTOR2. Bioware did not want to make games using other companies' intellectual property (which has obviously changed since then), so LucasArts went to Obsidian. LucasArts shares a considerable portion of the blame for KOTOR2 being the half-finished joke that it was, as they chose an awful developer when Bioware bailed on them. However, Bioware isn't exactly blameless.

Re:Bioware sequel? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21174703)

Bioware did not want to do KotR2. They passed it off to Obsidian (aka Black Isle). Lucas Arts went ballistic and took a hatchet to the end of the game cause it was far to "dark" and went against lore

No more MMOs! (5, Interesting)

Fallingcow (213461) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174029)

I wish that all the good CRPGs weren't moving to console bastardizations and MMO models.

Some of my favorite games ever are CRPGs... Morrowind, Fallout 1 & 2, Vampire: The Masquerade and Bloodlines, Darklands (old school as hell, but one of the best games ever; we need a remake with a less-clunky interface. I'd pay new-game prices for it), Planescape: Torment, etc.

My wife's a much bigger RPGer than I am, and any trip to the PC game section of a store will draw complaints from her about how every RPG with an interesting-looking box turns out to be yet another damned MMO on closer inspection.

Re:No more MMOs! (4, Informative)

someone1234 (830754) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174213)

I know of 2 old school crpg's in the making:
Broken Hourglass
Drakensang

And of course Bioware's Dragon Age
Probably there are others.

Re:No more MMOs! (2, Informative)

Huntr (951770) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174417)

I've got my eye on Age of Decadence [irontowerstudio.com]

Re:No more MMOs! (1)

someone1234 (830754) | more than 6 years ago | (#21177353)

Cool, action point based combat :)
This really sounds promising as i hate real time combat.

Re:No more MMOs! (1)

Fallingcow (213461) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174539)

Haha, thanks, part of the reason that I posted was in the hopes that people would recommend some :)

Broken Hourglass looks especially interesting. I'll have to keep an eye on these.

Re:No more MMOs! (2, Informative)

Tuidjy (321055) | more than 6 years ago | (#21177497)

My hopes lie with the Witcher. But, to be honest, lately I have been too scared to go look for info on the game. I have it on pre-order, and I will start it with an open mind.

Goes without saying, I'm a fan of the books.

Well, where is the money? (5, Insightful)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174853)

Look at happened to poor Oblivion when it dared to charge people for a small upgrade, why they were nothing more then common fraudsters.

Meanwhile a small company called Blizzard is raking in several times what that horse armour costs EACH month PLUS they charge 5-6 times for an upgrade. Oh okay so their upgrade is a lot bigger, but people been paying them a monthly fee for years and they still want more AND get it?

Companies got to be asking themselves why they spend years on a product that if it is a big hit might make them a small fortune once while they can also spend that time making an MMO and if it is a hit make more money then they can dream off.

On the other hand, will this be an MMO? With Star Wars Galaxies still running and it still having a lousy rep and neither company having any experience (except lucasrts with destroying one) with MMO's?

We shall see. But MMO's are here to stay, because Blizzard has shown you can get some serious money from them.

Re:Well, where is the money? (1)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175553)

Yeah, and really... for all the terrible things you'd constantly hear about SWG, I bet it still was a way bigger money maker than KOTOR or probably nearly all single player games.

(Something like Halo can still make a lot of money without being an MMO, but I think if we're honest it's mostly selling on the appeal of multiplayer.)

If making a half-assed MMO makes you more money than a great SPG like a Planescape Torment or what have you, where's the incentive to make the great single player game? For every manager that's motivated by pride in a job well done above all, there's many who want to sleep on a bed of money. People have voted with their dollars, and as often picked something crappy.

Re:Well, where is the money? (1)

Das Modell (969371) | more than 6 years ago | (#21176645)

Meanwhile a small company called Blizzard is raking in several times what that horse armour costs EACH month PLUS they charge 5-6 times for an upgrade. Oh okay so their upgrade is a lot bigger, but people been paying them a monthly fee for years and they still want more AND get it?

It's not about the money, it's about what you get in return. The horse armor upgrade is so utterly trivial that asking money for it is preposterous. WoW's monthly fee is perfectly justified and people are willing to pay it. Most singleplayer games, which cost between 50 and 70 euros depending on the platform, will last you for a few days or a week. WoW is a game that you can play for years, and you only pay ~12 euros a month. You also get constant updates, some of which feature additional content or major changes to the game.

WoW only has one expansion so far, and it's a big one. There's nothing unreasonable about charging money for that. Oblivion also has expansions (smaller ones), which is what you should be comparing BC to.

Re:Well, where is the money? (1)

dtml-try MyNick (453562) | more than 6 years ago | (#21177281)

First of all, you can hardly call Blizzard a small company anymore. It became a multi billion dollar industry of it's own. The Warcraft and Starcraft franchise is huge.

The difference between Blizzard and the *big* majority of other developers is that so far Blizzard haven't sold themselves out yet.
When they release something it is done, the product is finished and polished as good as it gets. They rather wait a few months, miss that oh-so important Christmas release and release it later instead of making something just work and patch it up later.

As a customer you feel the difference between such a developer and for instance a monster like EA which is just after the fast cash.
I'm sounding like your average Blizzard fan-boi now, and heck, I am one. Because experience has thought me that if I bring money to Blizzard I'm going to get something good in return.
The same experience that has tought me to never ever buy a EA title again, or for that matter never buy something from most developers again before having played the "free (as in beer) version first. Because most of the times you're going to bend over and get it from behind. The Oblivion upgrades are a good example.

We shall see. But MMO's are here to stay, because Blizzard has shown you can get some serious money from them

I disagree, they have merely shown that delivering quality pays of. This concept simply still works in most business :p

Re:No more MMOs! (1)

pickapeppa (731249) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175237)

Amen. I liked the first 2 KOTORs because of the immersion and the story. I doubt I'll immerse very well with aNaK1nlol_w0ot! bouncing by claiming "wookies are teh gay!"

Re:No more MMOs! (2, Informative)

LarsWestergren (9033) | more than 6 years ago | (#21176511)

Hi, I like the same games... Witcher and NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer are two recently released games that might appeal to you. MOTB I have played, and while it didn't reach the greatness of Planescape: Torment it is one of the closest ever in my books.

www.biowarelucasarts.com is up for grabs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21174121)

1. Buy domain www.biowarelucasarts.com
2. ????
3. Profit!!!

Just waiting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21174165)

for the next non-groundbreaking game. Guess it will be Duke Nuken Forever.

Re:Just waiting... (1)

Devir (671031) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174461)

Oh man, I hate this cheesy horrible borderline troll comment but I have to say it... (flushes karma down toilet)

I'll fart Gold Rose Petals before Duke Nukem Forever comes out.

Star Wars: Yoda Stories MMO! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21174681)

Clearly, Lucasarts realized the immense success they got from Yoda Stories and decided a MMO version was necessary to continue its lasting legacy in Star Wars gaming history.

Monkey Island (1)

Trojan35 (910785) | more than 6 years ago | (#21174983)

I don't want to hear it until they start developing a new Monkey Island. Like the first two, not the crap that came after it.

Hell, even re-release the first two on Xbox Live Arcade and I'll be happy. LeChuck's revenge was my favorite.

Re:Monkey Island (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21176281)

One unfortunate side-effect of reading Slashdot comments too quickly is that at first I saw your comment as wishing for a Monkey Island MMO. Now I'm going to be trying all day to figure out how that would work.

(If it did work, it'd probably be a blast, though.)

Re:Monkey Island (1)

Grant_Watson (312705) | more than 6 years ago | (#21177293)

To be fair, Murray was a redeeming factor in the third game. But you're right, the first two were better; still, can you see any company using that sort of engine these days? It's sad, really.

So, Star Wars Galaxies 2.0? (3, Informative)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175429)

I like MMO's and I liked SWG. For a while and then something happened. Through various design choices AND player actions the game got ruined.

To explain I have to tell you how SWG worked. Like most MMO's you picked a race, sex and apperance, and a class. HOWEVER that last choice had little meaning as you could pick up all the classes with just little bit of money at the start. Unlike the rigid class structures of the Everquest clones (Ultima Online is a seperate beast) in SWG your character could advance in any skill set if he/she used it. If you wanted to advance in pistol class, you had to buy the skill class of pistoleer, and then just use pistols to kill something.

The precise arrangement was a little complex but it allowed you to combine several skill sets together to make your character. Want to be a robot building sharpshooter? A medic with a big sword? A bounty hunter with passion for cooking? A jedi... ah well we will get to that. But more or less, you could.

You had the base skill set of ranged combat (pistol, carbine, rifle (and something I forgot)), melee (unarmed, sword etc) (It has been a while cut me some slack) and support skills like medic, crafter and scout.

The idea was that you would pick those skills that most suited your style of play. For a short time in the games history it worked. A lot of players had a bit of scouting skill to help with gathering resources, some had some medic skills to help with healing even if their main intrest was combat. While others took on the role of pure fighters, secure in knowing that others in their party could heal them in exchange for taking the brunt in a fight.

It more or less worked, skills sets were varied and most were of real use.

What you have to remember was that SWG had far less of the rigid level system that other games have. If you wanted too, and could afford the modest fee you could go straight to fighting rancors, sure you would be eaten, but you could.

SWG did NOT have the quest system, instead you got generic missions of the level of your party and went out to kill spawns. While it sounds less intresting then quests, it helped with one thing. Finding a group, I never had a problem. Granted this was because EVERYBODY hunter naff's but at least you didn't spend an hour LFG. NOR because of the mixed skill sets did you have to beg for a healer to join you.

Once in a while, a group would form to hunt rancors. There were no uber elites back then, just ordinary playrs with varied skills sets seeking fame and glory. A rancor group was a time to prepare, to get your best medicine from stall, repair that armour and get all your equipment checked out.

Once ready, you left, to arrive on a dark world where EVERYTHING could kick your ass. The only way to survive was in a group and to use ALL the skills you had. The best time I had in game was doing deep into rancor valley with a small group, taking shelter among friendly animals (who if a rancor came near would attack, yes my friend MMO critters who have fights amongst themselves) and hunting. Camping out, a small lighted area under a night sky while the trader tried to find some resources so the medic could make some more stimms.

Ah yes, SWG was FUN. It was adventuring.

And then, the doc buffs. SWG had some unusual systems and one was that armour reduced your recovery rates to the point where you wouldn't heal or even were simply unable to wear the armour. To counter that, there were buffs in the forms of food, but the doc buff was introduced to allow the heaviest armour to be actually used. And sony miscalculated. Because resources were dynamic in their quality, the quality if the doc buff depended on the materials players combined. THe results were far more powerfull then intended, with a decent quality doc buff, costing 20k you could walk up to a rancor nest, tap it and just area attack away, spawning rancors until the nest was destoryed and you were surrounded by half a dozen dead beasts. Who needs a jedi now?

The doc buff gave you suck a high boost to total health and regen rate that you became all but immortal. No enemy could damage you fast enough. As a terra kasi (unarmed) you didn't even have to bother with armour. Saved a lot of money too.

This was the start of the Solo Group. Because the biggest quests only went to strong groups, you had to group to get them, but you would then just go your own way to actually complete the missions on your own. Medic skills? Why bother. Scout? Detracts from the killing skills. AH but that would lead to less supplies for crafters and therefore increased prices (SWG had a total player economy, with no looted gear)? Well yeah, but a doc buff costs 20k a single rancor mission pays 36k and you would have to be a lazy slop not to be able to do a dozen or more in the buff time.

When there was no doctor available to buff, the game grinded to a halt, everyone trying to find a doc somewhere capable of buffing.

SWG had died. Do not listen to stories about the CU or NGE, when the solo group came into being, that was when SWG died.

The only challenge left was to get a doc buff.

Oh yeah, Sony tried adding some high level content, critters with 100% resist to all damage type, except one, that was just 90% resist. Whoopie do. It resulted in fights that were just endless beatings, a group beating away with macro's while the healthbar slowly went down.

What you have to understand is that a solo MMO is no fun. Neither is killing stuff that provides no challenge.

If only Sony had not introduced the doc buff to appease those who wanted to walk around in the heaviest armour without punishement, if only players had resisted the doc buff.

I see the same thing in lotro, again a game that allows freedom, and if you read the class channels on the forum you see a lot of complaints the class X can't solo Y but class Z can, we want to solo Y too. Do not dare to point out that neither class is supposed to be able to solo anything. It is Fellowshop of the Ring, not Lone ranger of the ring (and even he had tonto, and a horse).

SWG wasn't anymore flawed then anyother MMO I seen, where Sony goes wrong is in actually listening to its customers. Like a mother who has to force her teenage kids to have fun, sometimes a company need to say to its customers, NO, we won't give you X because it will ruin the game.

The problem? This is Lucasarts, and those who know a bit about SWG history know that at least part of the fault lies with Lucasarts.

Re:So, Star Wars Galaxies 2.0? (1)

Joe U (443617) | more than 6 years ago | (#21175589)

Very well written and thought out. You're right on pretty much all your points, except that CU and NGE didn't help kill SWG.

When the buff/armor fiasco started Sony could have simply nerfed the features and lost about a quarter of their userbase, instead they redid the entire game, twice. So they lost over three quarters of their userbase.

Not well planned.

Personally, I think if they re-introduced the original game today, people would play it. But it would have to start from scratch, and that's more work than SOE would ever put into a game.

Re:So, Star Wars Galaxies 2.0? (1)

Endo13 (1000782) | more than 6 years ago | (#21176089)

That's what I really like about Guild Wars. Yeah, ArenaNet has made some changes in the past that upset a lot of players (never enough to cause anything close to a mass exodus) but now their policy is that any changes they're considering on the actual skills (powers, spells, moves, etc. for those who've never played GW) are tested live first to get feedback. Yes, actual live testing over the course of a weekend, not testing on some obscure test server that only about 5% of the players ever use. And even after live testing and subsequent implementation, they're not afraid to revert those changes later if something unforeseen results.

Pre CU, Pre NGE system killed swg (1, Interesting)

unity100 (970058) | more than 6 years ago | (#21176689)

The very flexible boxes system was good, but it provided BIG TIME exploitation due to template stacking.

people just got all possible bonus points for something and then created uber templates. like fencer templates that got stuff from pistoleer, fencer, teras kasi to form +120 dodge, and become unbeatable. at one time, the same toon had won an online pvp tournament of 160 people, FIVE TIMES over, WITHOUT being hit JUST ONCE. then they tried to nerf the stackers, but, what difference would it make - they just changed their template trees and got uber again.

the pre cu, pre nge state of the game, ie the initial state alienated MANY sw fans. imagine, you are going into a sw game, but EVERYONE is walking with rancors or grauls or panthers behind them, the game looks like a zoo. then, suddenly it goes away with patch, this time you see that bare hands outdo blaster wielders, totally making it a medieval setting instead of star wars.

many quit at that time.
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