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Leopard Early Adopters Suffer For The Rest of Us

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the working-the-kinks-out dept.

OS X 461

News.com tallies up the minor annoyances early adopters have experienced dealing with the newest version of OS X. From a change in folder design to install issues, and beyond to lack of support for Java 6, Mac users have had more to grumble about than usual in the last week. Just the same, the article notes, there have been no major problems and (compared to other OS launches) Leopard kicked off fairly well. "Let's give thanks to the early adopters, however masochistic they may be. You can do all the QA in the world before releasing an operating system, and it's not going to compare to what happens when the unwashed masses get their hands on the product. Microsoft's Windows Vista had years of developer releases, and was released to manufacturing several weeks before it went on sale to the general public. Still, compatibility problems cropped up because it's extremely difficult to anticipate what people are running, and in what combination. It's easier for Apple because it tightly controls its hardware and software, and because there are fewer potential combinations in the wild, but it's still a Herculean task."

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GNAA announces switch to Windows Vista (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210481)

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Trolled.



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Early Adoption (5, Insightful)

Gricey (154787) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210487)

Isn't this always the case? If you jump in first, yes you get your shiny, and you put an end to the wait, but you're gonna have to live with the niggles.

Same with the iPhone, same with Vista, hell, same with Debian testing.

Longer wait = More Stable
GET IT NOW = Put up with some mild issues

M.

Re:Early Adoption (1, Redundant)

Carthag (643047) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210515)

Yes, the summary pretty much says it's always the case :)

Re:Early Adoption (1)

SCHecklerX (229973) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210565)

same with rockbox on my sansa e280. I'm going to wait awhile, I think.

Re:Early Adoption (4, Insightful)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210585)

Not always true. I just want to say that the DVD player that I bought in 1997 is still running strong. I can't say the same for three of the el-cheapo $100 players I bought later.

Re:Early Adoption (1)

eebra82 (907996) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210867)

I think that the point of the article is that Apple is getting closer to where Microsoft is today with its Windows. More complexity will result in more flaws.

Re:Early Adoption (4, Insightful)

Khuffie (818093) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211273)

The only difference is, because it's Apple, people make excuses and say "oh, it's a new OS, it's natural there are bugs." When it's Microsoft, people's reaction is more akin to "M$ sucks! Windoze sucks! Burn it at the stake!". For the record, I installed Vista when it launched (in fact, I ran the beta exclusively the last few months), and didn't have any major problems aside from an incompatible codec that was fixed before the launch. I'm waiting to get my hands on Leopard to install on my MacBook (which blasphemously is running Vista almost exclusively, I still can't get used to a lack of taskbar) and see how things go.

nothing to complain about ? (-1, Troll)

ohgood (1144715) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210503)

Give me a break ! All those torrents are junk ! ;-) Frosty Pester btw :-)

Early adoption problems for Apple. (5, Funny)

RandoX (828285) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210511)

Clearly they're pandering to the Windows market.

I hope this will end to those obnoxious Mac ads (-1, Flamebait)

PHAEDRU5 (213667) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210517)

Apple has proved that *anyone* can generate a crappy OS release.

Re:I hope this will end to those obnoxious Mac ads (3, Insightful)

ByOhTek (1181381) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210533)

Since when has inaccuracy stopped them from putting something in one of the Apple ads?

For that matter, it's been a long time since inaccuracy has stopped most ideas from becoming advertisements.

Odd Number Phobia??? (1)

The Assistant (1162547) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210601)

If 668 is the neighbor of the beast (must live across the road) what about 665 and 667?

Do you have something against odd numbers???

As a result of your omision, you are ordered by the department of psychiatry to attend weekly sessions with our corrections facility psychiatric staff.

Re:Odd Number Phobia??? (1)

PHAEDRU5 (213667) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210645)

You obviously don't know anything about the way streets are numbered in the US. Even numbers for one side of the street, odd for the other.

You sir, are ordered to multi-culti-thought-control-reprocessing. And may God^H^Haia have pity on your neurons!

Re:Odd Number Phobia??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210667)

You obviously don't know anything about the way streets are numbered in the US.

Actually, a lot of places number their streets with every other even/odd number, in case someone redivides the lots and builds houses inbetween. In these cities, the neighbors of 666 would be 670 and 662 ;)

Re:Odd Number Phobia??? (1)

PHAEDRU5 (213667) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210767)

Hey! Hey! Leave off or I'll have my neighbor on you.

No real problems here (4, Informative)

Hellad (691810) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210527)

My install as relatively smooth. It did seem to stall on reboot after install so I did a force shutdown, but it restarted with no problems. Once I turned off safesleep, my system has been fast and very responsive.

Come on... is it that slow a news day? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210545)

Come on... is it that slow a news day? Oh shock horror, a new-ish piece of software *might* have bugs in it? And this is "news for nerds.. stuff that matters" - how exactly? Oh that's right, zonk posted this one. all makes sense now.

About as good as non free can be. (3, Funny)

Erris (531066) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210563)

Bravo to the Apple people for pulling things off with nothing more than minor annoyances. They are a reminder that non free software does not have to be as rapacious as others have made it.

At the same time, Apple is a reminder that non free will software always depend on the free software world and will always have problems. Upgrades of Debian are always smooth and lossless.

Re:About as good as non free can be. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210723)

I don't know what world you live in, but free software is not a panacea for bugs in new software. I'm glad Debian has always worked out for you (or you at least have a pleasant form of bug amnesia), but all operating systems have upgrade blues. "apt-get dist-upgrade" is awesome, but it doesn't mean all your software still works.

Re:About as good as non free can be. (2, Insightful)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210885)

Upgrades of Debian are always smooth and lossless.
How, exactly, did you say that with a straight face? Sorry, I've done Debian upgrades, and they're not always that smooth ... just because apt-get dist-ugprade works doesn't mean everything works well after that, especially if you have any customizations, or odd bits of hardware or applications.

Re:About as good as non free can be. (2, Insightful)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211325)

At the same time, Apple is a reminder that non free will software always depend on the free software world and will always have problems.

Non-free-will software? What is that, software you're forced to use while some jack-booted thug holds a gun to your forehead? I don't think we have any non-free-will software in the US.

More seriously, I have no clue what this is supposed to mean. Non-free software will always depend on free software? Explain DOS, Mac OS Classic, OS/2, Netware, etc. (Actually Netware probably does depend on some free software.)

Upgrades of Debian are always smooth and lossless.

With all apologies to Baghdad Bob:

"I can say, and I am responsible for what I am saying, that they have started to commit suicide [at their keyboards]. We will encourage them to commit more suicides quickly."

Re:About as good as non free can be. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21211383)

Upgrades of Debian are always smooth and lossless.

Hahahahaha!!!

Boy, you actually typed that in and meant it, didn't you?

I hope you are kidding, because "funny" is the only moderation I can think of that your post deserves. Wow.

My experiences (5, Informative)

robosmurf (33876) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210569)

I've installed Leopard on both my PowerPC Macs (yes, I got the family edition).

One install went very smoothly (though Leopard does run slowly at first due to Spotlight indexing everything again).

The other install ran into two separate problems. Firstly, I got the Blue Screen freeze (solution - reboot to single user mode and delete APE). Secondly, the Finder would hang on launch (solution - bring up a terminal and remove the divx support library).

Both of these I resolved fairly quickly with a google search, but the solution each time would be worrying to a non-technical user.

Re:My experiences (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210769)

A "non-technical" user using APE is playing with fire, anyway. That's like someone who doesn't understand command lines messing with the Windows registry or Linux's /etc directory without having a backup.

Re:My experiences (1)

pthor1231 (885423) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211345)

What about a non techincal user that had installed DivX?

It's catching Linux now... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21211437)

"(solution - reboot to single user mode"
"(solution - bring up a termina" ...

Apple is near there, it'll be as unfriendly as Linux is just one or more releases...

Hasn't Been That Bad (5, Funny)

kannibal_klown (531544) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210573)

I guess I'm one of the lucky few. It hasn't been bad at all for me. Install went well, everything I needed to install right away worked, etc. There are a few apps I'm holding off on installing because I hear they aren't Leopard-ready, but they're not that critical.

Honestly, you can't expect any new commercial OS version to be flawless.

But let the flame wars commence.
  • Anti-Mac zealots will point-and-laugh, though they usually fair just as poorly.
  • Mac-Zealots will beat their chests and defend their platform to the point of pig-headed-ness.
  • Linux-Zealots will talk down to everyone else, stating that using a non-open OS is a war crime or some nonsense.
Why can't people be more moderate?

Re:Hasn't Been That Bad (5, Insightful)

mattgreen (701203) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210835)

Why can't people be more moderate?
Because people at this site attach exaggerated importance to the choice of one's operating system when it really doesn't matter. Additionally, extremist viewpoints are rewarded with mod points, so there's little point in being moderate, because you won't get attention. Since there are so many voices, recognition becomes a coveted thing.

That said, intelligence and dogmatism (about technology) usually don't run hand-in-hand. Technology is about solving problems, not getting into pissing matches about your preferred technology. Unfortunately, few people seem to be able to see beyond themselves.

Re:Hasn't Been That Bad (5, Funny)

gardyloo (512791) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210905)

Spoken like a true vi user.

Re:Hasn't Been That Bad (1)

R.D.Olivaw (826349) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210909)

Isn't that the whole point of the mod system? If a post is too extreme, you moderate it.

Re:Hasn't Been That Bad (0)

yakumo.unr (833476) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210963)

They point and laugh despite fairing just as poorly because Apple themselves, and not just the zealots, mocked vista for the same things as if it would never happen with an apple system, and frankly with the VASTLY smaller hardware and software set it really shouldn't.

The only thing I find makes me chuckle though tbh is the last minute removal of features (time machine to airport, that's really messed some people around buying hw specifically for it) and the approve-everything UAC like functionality so mocked in vista also (no X second grace on after elevation any more).

It's nice to hear when it does install properly most are pretty happy with it so far though.

Re:Hasn't Been That Bad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210967)

...and you have clearly stated which of these three groups you belong to.
You are telling everything right here: Honestly, you can't expect any new commercial OS version to be flawless.

Re:Hasn't Been That Bad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21211097)

But let the flame wars commence.

        * Anti-Mac zealots will point-and-laugh, though they usually fair just as poorly.
        * Mac-Zealots will beat their chests and defend their platform to the point of pig-headed-ness.
        * Linux-Zealots will talk down to everyone else, stating that using a non-open OS is a war crime or some nonsense.

Why can't people be more moderate?


I am pretty much critical of all operating systems. I use Windows, Linux, and OS X. Here's my take:

Mac OS X - Slick OS, but don't believe the hype, Apple's apps crash (not all OS X apps, just Apple's), they crash a LOT. "It just works" is biggest load of bullshit, and somehow, people actually believe it. Being an early adopter hurts, as I experienced with iLife '08 which is currently very buggy. Even pro apps, like Final Cut Pro crash. I am going to wait until some time next year to install Leopard, at least on main machine (a Mac Pro). I may install it on another drive or on my G4 Mac Mini just to play around with, though.

Windows - Vista? The thought of upgrading to it hasn't even occurred to me. I am just now considering upgrading my Windows machines and VM's to XP Pro (from Win2k). This is mainly because there is a lot of software being released that requires at least XP. I use XP Pro at work. It's not my favorite, but I can do my work (software development) without any issues and I have Linux in a VM as well.

Linux - I've been burnt a little by early adoption of some of the last few Ubuntu versions, but 7.10 is pretty impressive. Wireless and power management now work on my laptop out-of-box, though reconnecting to wireless is slow and power management is slow and not perfect. If anything, I'm a Linux zealot (having used it since 1995), because I'm a UNIX fan and really like software freedom. Linux is the most comfortable for my UNIX needs. And if something doesn't work, I can always hack at it until it works, rather than have to wait on a third party to fix things.

Oh, and I'm a shameless pirate, so costs of Windows and Mac software are not an issue for me. I did have a good run for a while where I was completely legal software-wise running Linux. If I get fed up with OS X and Apple software (which might happen due to how often it crashes), I might do that again if I can adapt my video and music editing workflow to Linux.

Re:Hasn't Been That Bad (1)

pedestrian crossing (802349) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211159)

Hey, you left out the grammar nazis who would point out that it is "fare", not "fair"...

A few things (1)

Klaidas (981300) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210575)

Well, firstly, aren't early adopters 'suffering for the rest of us' in pretty much all things that are new?
Early upgraders are the ones who face incompatibility first. And someone's got to be first anyway.
And the second thing, maybe apple will be a little more gentle with their 'biased' ads? (Not that they aren't funny... :) but, as we can see, apple is not that perfect after all)

Re:A few things (5, Funny)

east coast (590680) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210881)

Well, firstly, aren't early adopters 'suffering for the rest of us' in pretty much all things that are new?

But you don't understand... since it's an Apple product the early adopters who are suffering are cool for it instead of just being jackass morons like those who are early adopters of other technology.

It's an Apple thing, you wouldn't understand.

Java complainers (-1, Troll)

FranTaylor (164577) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210579)

The Java complainers on OSX should STFU. Sun's released the JDK source, Redhat is putting it in Fedora 8. The Java complainers can make their own JDK for OSX. But then they wouldn't be able to whine at Apple any more.

Re:Java complainers (1)

pshumate (1004477) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210663)

And for those of us that don't have the skill or time to make our own JDK? Or aren't entirely sure what a JDK is? We should just STFU and deal with it, when we've come to expect (based on track record) that the system "just works"?

Re:Java complainers (1)

FranTaylor (164577) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210913)

Why are you complaining? If Java "just works" then you should be able to run your app just as well on a linux box. Your nifty new mac will run linux very well in VMware. If your are so damned motivated to run a Java 6 app on your mac, then you won't mind doing a little extra work. What is this Java 6 application that you absolutely must run, anyway?

Re:Java complainers (1)

pshumate (1004477) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211025)

I'm not complaining, since I don't have any Java 6 apps that must be run. I'm asking why someone's so critical of people that ARE complaining. And why is "run Linux" the go-to answer, most of the time? Why should I have to run another OS? Those that absolutely have to run something with Java 6, then yeah, I suppose they would put forth the extra work. My question is, why should they?

I think it's backlash from the Mac-Zealots (3, Interesting)

FatSean (18753) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211323)

You know, the clowns who insist that the Mac 'just works' and take every chance to deride users of Windows. If someone has a windows problem, they bray "Get a Mac!" Now, all of a sudden, their sacred cow isn't working like they say it should. I think some windows users are experiencing Shaedenfreud(sp) and rubbing it in.

Re:Java complainers (1)

Jano-r (214072) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210665)

Duplicating the effort of apple in providing the quartz pipeline that provides resolution independent for 2d graphics in java won't get you java 6 any sooner.

Re:Java complainers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210669)

Oh yeah - tell an average user, they have to compile source code. Great idea.

Re:Java complainers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210821)

I don't think the average user is going to be writing java.

Re:Java complainers (1)

not already in use (972294) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210683)

Well, not supporting Java 6 kinda deviates from the whole "It Just Works" mantra, doesn't it?

Re:Java complainers (2, Informative)

FranTaylor (164577) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210845)

Dude, I work with Java all the time. Some vendors are having a tough enough time supporting Java 5. Java is very important, but it takes development effort to do a good port, and Apple has been very busy lately. Face it, there are not a lot of Java 6 apps. If you really have to run one, get a Linux box, or run one in VMware.

Like I said, it's in Fedora 8, which is shipping any day now. If OSX actually had dedicated java developers, they'd be all over this, and they'd have their JDK just about ready, too. You don't have to be a developer to help out with a port. If you can run java programs and fill out good bug reports, then you can be a big help. If OSX supposedly has so many dedicated users, they should be able to pull this off in a snap! If RedHat can do it...

Re:Java complainers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210977)

There are PLENTY of Java 6 applications, but they are still initializing. Check back in a couple months and they might actually be running.

Re:Java complainers (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21211141)

Java is very important, but it takes development effort to do a good port, and Apple has been very busy lately.
Good job, iApologist.

Microsoft screws Java: they're LAZY and EVIL and BOYCOTT BOYCOTT BOYCOTT.
Apple screws Java: they're very busy.

Re:Java complainers (1)

damaki (997243) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210859)

Have you already tried to compile Sun's Java? It's a painful mess. I tried it once for OpenBSD, never again...
Far too much stuff to compile, needs several GB of free space.

Re:Java complainers (1)

mattgreen (701203) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211017)

Wait, given that Java is Sun's baby, why does Apple have to provide anything? Java 6's lack of inclusion in Leopard just means that Apple doesn't want to keep up with it anymore. I'm pretty sure they announced they weren't going to maintain the Java bindings any longer, so that is why they didn't include it.

Why should it be included with the base OS? Some customers may prefer not to have the bloated JVM automatically installed.

Re:Java complainers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21211023)

As long as we're using acronyms, let me be the first to say: GTFO, troll. I'm not sure why you think anybody cares about your opinion.

Little do they know (5, Funny)

sircastor (1051070) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210591)

Steve is going to drop the price next month. It'll be $200 less than the original price, so... -$71

Re:Little do they know (2, Funny)

varmittang (849469) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210703)

But I got the family pack for $199, so do I only get $1 back. =(

Re:Little do they know (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210791)

Someone needs some serious help with their math. Or they need to come to my shop and let me be their cashier.

unwashed? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210603)

hey, I washed plenty this morning!

Herculean Apple, savior of the people (-1, Troll)

kiberovca (524346) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210625)

Oh yes, poor poor company, working so hard to earn as much money as they can, they should be praised for their herculean efforts to make products that they will sell later on...

Minor annoyances, eh? (2, Insightful)

EveryNickIsTaken (1054794) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210631)

News.com tallies up the minor annoyances early adopters have experienced dealing with the newest version of OS X.
Had this been a windows release, I'm fairly certain that these would have been called "major GUI design flaws" and "critical systems bugs/security issues."

Re:Minor annoyances, eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210871)

Absolutely. Only Apple can get away with a stinking BSOD and have it labeled as a "minor annoyance".

Re:Minor annoyances, eh? (1)

foniksonik (573572) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211309)

Well, when there isn't much you can afford to lose.. every little bug is critical.... if Vista had offered some serious new value to users, it would have gotten off a lot easier on the small things. WinFS anyone?

You heard it here first (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210653)

Mac users are 'unwashed masses'.

So What (2, Informative)

MBCook (132727) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210657)

That's what happens. I installed Leopard on day 1. And I'm happy.

The only issue I've run into that is of any importance is that junk mail filtering on Mail seems to have stopped working for me. I don't know if it won't kick in until it has seen X number of messages or such, but it's starting to annoy me. The setting are all right. It is supposed to listen to the headers my ISP sends (SpamAssassin, which worked before). But nothing gets moved into Junk if I don't do it manually. Starting to bug me.

It's a tiny bug considering all they did. By and large, I'm happy. The only other thing I'd like is to be able to live-resize disks with a DOS partition format (instead of Mac). You can't do that.

Re:So What (1)

porcupine8 (816071) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211195)

I don't know if this is the same issue, but my Tiger mail chokes if I get more than 10-20 junk mails at a time. I find that if I make sure the junk mail folder is selected as I do my first mail retrieval of the morning, it's far more likely to filter them all correctly. Though they are still marked as Junk, they just go to the Inbox - if they're not getting marked as junk, you probably just need to keep training it.

Re:So What (1)

InadequateCamel (515839) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211369)

I've found the filters to be fine so far. Perhaps something is wrong with your Mail?

It's Beta (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210709)

If companies have learned anything, it's that people will willingly pay to buy crap.

The first adpoters of any new technology essentially get shafted. Companies know that the consumers have no elgal recourse that they can persue.

The programmers know that no matter how crappy their code is, they are just simple programmers and can't be held accountable.

Software is great, release a steaming mound of code, get wads of cash.

The good outweighs the bad (5, Informative)

virgil_disgr4ce (909068) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210741)

I got Leopard with a new MacBook Pro; previously I have been using Tiger since it came out. I've come to the current conclusion that of all the changes in Leopard, the good ultimately outweighs the bad. A huge chunk of this is due to massively improved networking in Finder -- the "Shared" section in the left-hand list makes networking with my several other machines (windows, linux or otherwise) so much easier, faster, and logical. For whatever it's worth, this is one case where coming closer to windows was an improvement. However, this particular one, like its implementation in Windows, still suffers from the problem of DNS updating -- it doesn't appear to cache entries, and there's no way that I can find to force it to update (note: I'm a bit of a newb on that stuff, so I might be misunderstanding it).

My friends and I were both worried we'd have to actually go back to Tiger, but I've adapted quite quickly to the changes and find the overall experience dramatically improved. The speed increases are downright monumental; using spotlight is actually a viable idea now!

--Ted

Re:The good outweighs the bad (4, Informative)

tf23 (27474) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211463)

[...]still suffers from the problem of DNS updating -- it doesn't appear to cache entries, and there's no way that I can find to force it to update
[...]
Try this:

dscacheutil -flushcache
In 10.4 it was

lookupd -flushcache

more of the same... (-1, Troll)

jgarra23 (1109651) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210779)

Sounds like the exact same problems cropping up for OSX that popped up for Vista. Who would've thought a large company with a closed-source operating system would have problems on the release date?? Meh...

So far, so good. (5, Informative)

tgibbs (83782) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210797)

I've installed Leopard on one of my Macs so far. I even did an upgrade install instead of the far safer "Archive & Install," which creates a new, pristine System Folder. I was amazed at how smoothly it went. It's pretty much gone as expected. Low level utilities and system customizations mostly don't work (although I had some pleasant surprises--Default Folder X seems to work OK) or have minor glitches). Applications generally work fine. The only major failure I've seen at this point is Photoshop 7, which now crashes on launch. On the other hand, some minor bugs seem to have evaporated.

Overall, I'm happy that I installed it. I am particularly pleased with Time Machine, which is far more convenient and intuitive than my current backup system, not to mention the additional safety of having hourly backups. I'm also beginning to use the built-in virtual desktop feature. I'd say that these two features are worth the price of admission

I'm not crazy about the esthetics. They certainly are no improvement, but they are not terrible. I'm giving the glitzy new Dock a chance--I've even put it down at the bottom of the screen for a while to see if I'll warm to it (I'm used to making it very small and stashing it over on the right). I have my doubts about the value of the feature that pops up icons of the files associated with a Dock item. I think I preferred the old list method, but I never used that much. I'm using the Finder again a bit, although I still prefer Path Finder for most actions.

Overall, I'd say it was a successful roll-out.

Fixed the Headline (5, Funny)

Udo Schmitz (738216) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210825)

Early Adopters Suffer For The Rest of Us

There, that's better

Re:Fixed the Headline (1)

daybot (911557) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211347)

Early Adopters Suffer The Rest of Us

Fixed it for you...

Surprise surprise (2, Interesting)

tomcatuk (999578) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210829)

So Apple are able to write software that runs reasonably well on hardware they design and control - hurrah! I hardly see how this is in anyway comparable to what Microsoft is doing when it attempts (albeit badly with Vista as the obvious example) to write code that will run on an almost infinite variety of machines they don't have any part of the design of.

3rd Party hardware (4, Interesting)

bhima (46039) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210837)

All of my Leopard update problems stem from 3rd party hardware.

Highpoint apparently will not be updating their drivers for the PCI-X RAID cards and using the Mac OS 10.4 drivers allows for accessing your drives in some sort of freaky read-only state. This caused a cascade of bizarre problems, culminating in my iTunes database and my iPod being corrupted. I suppose this comes from the actual MP3s residing on a read only partition (which claimed to be read write). So I guess I'll be buying a new RAID card soon and you can bet it won't be a highpoint product.

I've got a few other issues but nothing I can point back to Apple and complain about.

My biggest complaint is that I want to buy a new MacPro and they haven't updated them in quite some time.

Filevault problems (4, Insightful)

mikael_j (106439) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210895)

I installed Leopard this morning, at first everything seemed to work but then I made the mistake of running software update and then rebooting resulting in Leopard complaining about my Filevault partition being corrupted.

After about an hour of screwing around I had managed to get access to my files by making a .sparseimage file out of the Filevault file, deleting my account and then recreating the account and granting it admin rights, all of this through single-user mode with apple's wonky terminal apps, but hey. At least it works now! :)

I found a pretty big thread about this on Apple's support forums so it seems I'm not the only one with this problem.

/Mikael

Other OS releases (1)

russotto (537200) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210901)

Just the same, the article notes, there have been no major problems and (compared to other OS launches) Leopard kicked off fairly well.


I don't know about that. I haven't gotten my copy of Leopard yet. The people who I know who have had things go fairly smoothly. But so have the people who upgraded to Ubuntu Gutsy Gibbon -- just minor problems. IIRC, Debian had a release a little while ago and there were no major problems with that either. I don't recall any major problems with Panther, Leopard, Edgy, or Feisty either. Perhaps "a few minor problems" is NORMAL for OS releases, and total disasters <cough>Vista</cough> are the exception.

(Oh, and anyone who used the Unsanity APE and didn't remove it before upgrading really ought to know better. The similarity of "haxies" to "hacks" isn't just marketing. Nor is the company name)

Re:Other OS releases (4, Informative)

ubernostrum (219442) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211027)

(Oh, and anyone who used the Unsanity APE and didn't remove it before upgrading really ought to know better. The similarity of "haxies" to "hacks" isn't just marketing. Nor is the company name)

From what I've seen on the issue, it appears that Logitech installed an ancient version of APE as part of one of their driver bundles, and so there were a fair number of people with said ancient APE lying around on their drives without their ever realizing it.

Re:Other OS releases (3, Funny)

russotto (537200) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211315)

Hmm. How do you hit a company with a rolled-up newspaper? Bad Logitech! Bad!

Installed for 5 days (2, Insightful)

fermion (181285) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210907)

Computer does not seem slower, but it does not seem faster. No major problems other than a problem at shutdown. Less that a gig or ram, 1 gig processor. Spaces works pretty fast.

The only GUI issue I have is that it is no longer easy to tell if an application is open from the images on the dock. Perhaps switch back to the old look and feel.

As far as developer problems, and resulting application problems, so of this simply stems from the compromise apple has made. Apple has always treated developers like paid professionals and user like, well, paying customers. This may not be right choice, but it gives users a much better overall system. One implication of this is that the Applications are often not ready as soon as the OS is. OTOH, as any sysadmin knows, one does install a brand new OS on production machines. That is why I am phasing in the installation. I can see what works and what does not, and if the OS is ready. I may or may not install the OS on my main machines for several weeks.

Re:Installed for 5 days (2, Informative)

XnavxeMiyyep (782119) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211381)

You can switch the dock back to its old appearance with this information. [wired.com]

I have yet to try it though, as I don't have Leopard.

What's the freaking big deal? (1, Offtopic)

jvd (874741) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210917)

I mean, you can install a Trojan like that on a Unix-like (other than OS X) machine if you follow ALL the necessary steps to install it. The problem is not whether it's possible to install a Trojan on certain operating systems; the problem is the easiness of how it can be done. In Mac OS X you have to click through several screens to "get infected" while on Windows you're only one click away of getting infected. That's the difference.

HMmm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21210927)

No major issues?

And there I was thinking that automatically TURNING OFF the Mac firewall becuase of an upgrade was a pretty serious thing.

What is funny is the different views Mac and Windows users have, I mean these problems would have been hyped up no-end had it been a Windows OS, yet because its Mac it's "OK" to have a few issues.

Right?

My name is Raven, and I'm an early adopter (5, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210943)

I installed Leopard on the release day, and it's not without problems. First, the good:
  • The kernel no longer sucks. XNU is actually a pretty nice kernel now. When the open source release is done, I might even consider running OpenDarwin on some systems (Launchd is pretty nice too, and the new security frameworks are pretty shiny). This is the first OS X system that my mmap torture test failed to kill.
  • The new unified look is definitely an improvement.
  • Spotlight actually works. In Tiger it was a complete waste of space and resource.
  • RAM usage is way down (or, rather, the new VM subsystem handles swapping a lot better). Leopard works okay in 512MB of RAM on an Intel system. Tiger felt a bit cramped in 1GB.
  • Terminal.app is much improved. Bye bye iTerm.
  • Preview is much improved. I can now ditch PDFPen (buggiest piece of crap I've ever had to use) and may AppleScript hack to reopen windows when I update a PDF from LaTeX.
Some of the bad:
  • The menu bar is hideous unless you set your desktop background colour to black. If anyone happens to meet the UI designer who thought a transparent menu bar was a good idea, please slap them once for every Leopard user (two million slaps and counting...)
  • The new look doesn't work with Aqua widgets. Third party apps will all need updating to use the newer widgets.
  • I got a kernel panic which wiped out my home directory after about a day of use. Might have been a hardware issue (CPU failed to respond to IPI was the error). Made me very glad I keep regular backups...
  • Time Machine doesn't work properly with File Vault. It only performs backups when you log out (and how often do laptop owners do that? Once a month?) and you don't get any of the nice revision control stuff: you can do a full restore by booting from the install CD, but that's it. This forces laptop users to make a choice between security and safety for their data. Good call Apple.
  • Spaces is really buggy. Switching spaces sometimes restacks your windows (you can see why it happens, but it's still wrong). There is a race condition in the NSWorkspace code that causes new windows to sometimes open in the wrong space. No ability to pin windows, rather than apps, to all desktops.

Vista Sucks? (3, Insightful)

Zebra_X (13249) | more than 6 years ago | (#21210985)

http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20071030122926454 [macfixit.com]

This list of problems is almost as staggering as Vistas issues. What's most interesting is that a number *Applications* don't work with Leopard.

At least Microsoft values backward compatibilty. Arguably Vista's internals changed significantly more than Leopard yet MS managed to maintain almost complete backward compatibility with old programs.

I mean, Photoshop 7 doesn't work with Leopard!?

Of course, what little hardware Mac has available is also having issues according to that list.

Better hope your hardware partners update their drivers!

Re:Vista Sucks? (core OS vs 3rd party...) (1)

david.emery (127135) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211173)

The very first line in the MacFixIt article is:
Leopard: Incompatible third-party software and hardware

Both Leopard and Vista suffer from 3rd party problems. But I'd submit that there was a significant list of problems within Vista without adding any 3rd party software, particularly in some of the security-related stuff (including that annoying security prompter, which triggered so many times as to result in a 'social engineering failure' to be useful...)

        dave

Re:Vista Sucks? (2, Insightful)

linuxgurugamer (917289) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211355)

Backwards compatibility? Vista? Those two don't belong in the same sentence. Almost every publisher had to modify their apps in order to make it work properly with Vista. Hardware manufacturers had to modify their drivers, and now, over a year after the Vista release, there are still enough problems with Vista that many people are still choosing XP instead of Vista.

I run Vista, XP, and now OS X. I'm waiting for my upgrade to arrive, and don't expect too many problems. I only have Vista because some of my customers have it (against my advice), and those customers tend to have more service calls than the others.

I'm waiting for more reports... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21211001)

Us Getto mac users that dare to use incredibly out of date Machines like the dual core G5 have to lurk until we hear from other shameful old hardware users report in.

Everyone has been reporting good things have been using the shiney new intel mac's. I have yet to read anyone using G5's reporting good bad or indifferent.

but then I probably wont upgrade for a while anyways. I like 10.4 and I even like FCS 1 and am not planning on upgrading to FCS2 yet.

I hide my mac shame... I dont run the latest shiney... I also use a 3rd Gen ipod. Shameful me.

Re:I'm waiting for more reports... (2, Informative)

e4g4 (533831) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211479)

I've seen it running just fine on several PPC machines - my iBook G4 (1.25 GB RAM, 1.07 GHz), a pbook G4, a flower pot imac, an out of spec ibook g4 (700MHz) and (amazingly) a g4 cube. I've had no problems with any of my apps (except KisMAC, which has been having some problems related to it being declared illegal in Germany, the place where it was "born"), and only noticed some minor annoyances with spaces and bringing the correct window to the foreground on a switch.

X11 Server is totally broken (5, Informative)

GrumpyOldMan (140072) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211035)

The X11 server shipped with Leopard is utterly broken for people who make heavy use of X (broken dual monitor support, no full screen mode, X11 Applications custom menu times do not work, X may not launch because it depends on launchd tricks, etc). If you upgrade to Leopard, do NOT install X11. If you've already upgraded, and X doesn't work correctly, there are instructions online to downgrade to Tiger's X11: http://lists.apple.com/archives/x11-users/2007/Nov/msg00005.html [apple.com]

Hem ... I had a good experience (1)

Vicegrip (82853) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211055)

I know one person who had the blue screen problem however. I've heard it's related to 3rd party software that is incompatible with Leopard.

That said, I have to say that Leopard is a LOT of fun and I"m personally very pleased with the upgrade.

I like the changes to the email client the most, followed by the new backup system which is intuitive and beyond easy to use and setup. There so much new stuff.. iChat is still inferior to Adium though in my books. SMB support is noticeably improved and easier to use. The new developer tools are significantly better than the old stuff in my opinion as well.

I'm not sure why Java users are complaining. I'm pretty sure the DVD had the JRE/JDK on it which I manually installed along with all the the XCode stuff. Apple's own pages continue to refer to java as an important language for the OS. http://developer.apple.com/java/ [apple.com]

I did not have any problems with the upgrade, but I did take some precautions before doing it. I downloaded Superduper (proprietary software but it works and you can use it cost-free for this purpose) and made a full bootable backup of the system. It took hours, but gave me a way to back-out of the installation. In the end everything was fine.

went better than Gutsy Gibbon... (3, Interesting)

SuperBanana (662181) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211089)

Most of Leopard's problems are traced back to bad 3rd party software that uses undocumented hooks.

Every Ubuntu user I know (~6 people) has had issues with the Gutsy upgrade; more than half of them "resolved" the issue by wiping the machine. Given that Ubuntu's development process is far more "open" and there was no "third party" software involved (none were using third party binary drivers), what's the excuse?

I've seen CUPS break so badly that it constantly "stops" all the printers. Monitor resolutions and scan rates that were completely wrong and required hand-editing Xorg's config file, when the old config had worked just fine. One machine had an ethernet port completely disappear- and it was the one the ethernet cable was plugged into! Most were machines in use by programmer types, who didn't go mucking about save what was available via the GUI, because they don't know linux well enough. I can't blame the user in these cases.

Even with the previous release, when I upgraded a very simple server, there were problems with device-mapper pegging the machine until I spent half an hour screwing around with it, and finally found a post and bug in the ubuntu bugtracker. Of course, the bug had been known for months, and do you think anyone bothered to release a fix? Nope!

Never be an early adopter (1)

noewun (591275) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211099)

For anything. I will go out and get 10.5 this weekend and raise a glass to all those who had it installed six minutes after it released. Thank you, my unpaid beta testers, for making my weekend easier!

I upgraded to Leopard last night. (1)

Penguin Follower (576525) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211113)

So far all of my applications work just fine. I backed up my home folder, applications that don't come with OS X, and a couple other things, then popped in the Leopard disk and did an upgrade. No boot problems, no app problems. Nothing but goodness so far. :D I guess I am the exception. I use mostly free or opensource apps. I don't have a lot of expensive commercial software on it other than Carrara 3D (and the free Daz Studio). Neo Office works just fine. Etc....

Your Mileage May Vary (5, Interesting)

Thumper_SVX (239525) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211139)

I waited over the weekend to upgrade my Macbook Pro (first gen 15") to Leopard. And you know what? I'm happy I did it.

I did the upgrade on Monday night after using Carbon Copy Cloner to take a snapshot of my machine. And yes, to Windows folks that was a bootable image; I could reboot to my external USB drive if I wanted and CCC my machine back again... but I didn't have to.

So how did the upgrade process itself go? I inserted the Leopard DVD, clicked the icon to upgrade, waited for the reboot, clicked once and walked away to watch Mythbusters with my kids. By the time I came back upstairs to my laptop, I had a Leopard logon screen.

So I logged on to "survey the damage". You know what? I was impressed. Here are my first impressions:

1. 3rd Party Applications: The Missing Sync is broken. I knew that and expected that since they are notorious for lacking behind Apple updates. No worries, I don't really NEED it... sure it's nice, but it's not a requirement. Parallels worked, but networking was broken. A quick reinstall fixed that. Yahoo Messenger was busted out of the box, but I had Version 3 Beta 1... upgraded to the latest and voila, we're chatting with friends. My ancient copy of Photoshop 7 gave it up for the team. Even a reinstall wouldn't fix it. No problem, I have Aperture as well and rarely use Photoshop any more. Uninstalled, no worries. So out of all my apps, I had one casualty and a few "non-life threatening injuries". That's much better than my Vista experience.

2. Apple Applications: My first launch of Mail resulted in a "database upgrade" follwed by an immediate failure and Mail disappeared without so much as an error message. I launched it again and it's been fine since. I might delete my account and re-sync it... I love IMAP. Address Book and iCal are both greatly improved (as is Mail) and are actually useful tools now instead of toys. I see huge improvements here. Finder is significantly better, and though I do find the "embossed icons" to be a step backward in readability, the general improvements vastly improve the experience. Besides, I have faith this will be fixed either with a patch or a third-party hack. Everything else I've not really played with much.

3. General Usability: Wow. That's all I can say. The improvements over even the latest Tiger release are impressive. Although synthetic benchmarks show a very slight speed decrease on this platform, the general "feel" of the OS is significantly improved. Application launch times, app switching and generally USING the operating system make it feel like the system's actually been significantly improved. It's noticeable, and I have not really noticed any speed decreases at all apart from still seeming slow when I have my XP VM running in Parallels (rarely). At the end of the day, I get the impression that Leopard is faster, even if that's not backed up by the benchmarks. If the operating itself feels better, who cares what the benchmarks say anyway?

4. Other Notes: Wake from sleep is significantly improved. It used to be that I would open the lid of my laptop and I'd end up waiting for up to 15 seconds for a logon prompt. Now, the prompt is there within moments of me opening the lid. This significantly improves usefulness for me. Also, I thought that the "Coverflow" browsing would be a toy I'd bore of quickly. Quite the opposite... I've found it incredibly useful for going through busy and full folders so I can locate documents incredibly quickly. A+ on that feature!

5. The Bad: So far as I said, the only things I'll take issue with are the icons (embossed instead of clear icons) and a few things that I think need a little more work. The Stacks function... yuck. I don't like Stacks... I thought I would find it useful but it's just ugly. Not impressed, but I removed the default Documents and Application stacks from my dock... I'll use Quicksilver TYVM. Also, I've had one "grey curtains" failure (Mac owners know what I'm talking about) just a day after installation, but nothing since. It could well have been some third-party pieces that I've upgraded in the last week.

Other than that, I have to say this transition has been painless. I haven't played much with Time Machine; I use Mozy for data backups and Carbon Copy Cloner to grab the occasional image of my hard drive and I've never much worried about backups. Those few third-party apps I've had problems with all seem to have been worked out pretty quickly... even Quicksilver worked fine without an upgrade (though apparently there are some plugin problems with plugins I don't use!). Now, I did do some due diligence and before I upgraded I hit each of my major apps and hit the "Check for Updates" functions... that upgraded a few apps and may have saved my bacon a little.

I am an early adopter by my nature and job. As early adopter pain goes, this has been a lot more painless than the hell I went through (and still go through) with my Vista upgraded laptop at work.

As I said in my subject, your mileage may vary... but my experience so far has been that Leopard is more than worth the upgrade... even if only for the significantly improved Finder.

software compatibility (1)

_|()|\| (159991) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211145)

I upgraded an iMac at work and, after ensuring that the VPN client is compatible, a MacBook at home. The iMac at home stays on 10.4 until I have a Leopard-compatible SuperDuper. Time Machine looks cool and all, but I really like having a bootable backup.

In my case, OSXPlanet [osxplanet.com] , GeekTool [tynsoe.org] , MenuShade [nullriver.com] , and Butler [manytricks.com] have various levels of breakage. In the case of Butler, I'm trying out Spotlight as an application launcher (much faster than in 10.4), and I'm looking into System Events with AppleScript for keyboard macros. SSHKeychain [sshkeychain.org] seems to work, but 10.5 has a similar built-in feature that I'm trying out. Think [freeverse.com] still works, but only within a single virtual desktop. I'm not sure if that's a bug or a feature.

Two very very stable early MacOS releases (2, Insightful)

davidwr (791652) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211151)

MacOS releases 1.1 in 1984 and 2.0 in 1985 were extremely stable, considering they had no memory management to speak of and only rudimentary multitasking.

Of course, there was a lot less going on in a typical Mac than most machines today.

If you want stable and secure, run a proven-stable-and-secure OS like OpenBSD and run it as an appliance rather than a general-purpose PC. The fewer things you have going on, the less chance two things will interact badly and cause problems. You can achieve similar stability with most OSes if they are not on a network and only run a small, well-tested set of applications.

Very smooth. Snappy. (2, Informative)

jpellino (202698) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211335)

I keep my iBook 1.33 bog-standard and here's what I've found:
It lies about the install time - my quoted 1.5 hrs turned into actual 35 min (no languages, no printers no dev tools).
Zero install issues.
The unified UI is a standout feature.
Coverflow+Quicklook together are a standout feature.
Data detectors - wonderful. iCal is now a serious calendaring app. We're almost back to Newton functionality ;-)
Spaces is a standout feature. Almost makes Expose needless.
I get FrontRow and PhotoBooth.
Classique c'est mort, but we knew that.
Spotlight indexing is the same as any previous install, the app is far better.
The Dock and Menubar look great with the space-y "defaultdesktop" pic - light desktops not so much, I can see where there are issues.

Microsoft gets bashed too often (1)

Saranoya (1181685) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211367)

Indeed ... Microsoft is catching a lot of flak they don 't necessarily deserve. And that 's coming from a loyal Apple user.

does it make sence in a windows world (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21211403)

I have a Macbook Pro and found it difficult to maintain the same level of functionality in a corporate windows environment as other coworkers using windows laptops.

I have problems with email integration with Exchange 2000 (that we still use here). When i try to use Entourage i get no access to Active Directory and therefore my contacts are populated, i have no access to shared Calendars [please do not tell me about Ical].
I find the fact that i cannot tie my login and password change/expiry to my corporate Active Directory also a problem.

I have some of the best looking document/reports thanks to pages but exporting that beauty to word docs is impossible so i rely on PDF format [for some people it is not a big deal].

Things are even worse when you have intranet sites that require activeX and IE or VB scripts that fail to work in Office 2004 for Mac.

Sharing my desktop similar to netmeeting is a standard method that most people would operate with team members in remote offices/continents.

Even though i have all these issues i still love my Mac and plan to get rid of my home PC and get a Mac mini (since i have a PS3 for games , hell consoles are for gaming anyway not PCs).

My question is, for better or worse the corporate world is driven by the most common desktop environment and microsoft tries very hard to ensure that their applications keep you locked into there core product (windows X). Even though i tell people that i have less to fear from viruses and trojans (yes i saw the recent news of the new one), i cannot recommend that in a predominantly windows corporate environment they will not have issues and i do not have any power to wield over the IT group to force then to change the eMial server , etc.

-Anon

P.s. i like being different, so i have a Linux desktop and thanks to crossover office i actually have an easier time using my OpenSuse 10.2 work desktop than my Mac (guess i should test Cxoffice for Mac now)

Non problems so far (1)

Cannelloni (969195) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211441)

I've had no problems at all so far. Except that I think Tiger had a much cleaner and slicker interface. I DON'T like the new dock and definitely NOT the translucent menu bar or the stupid side bar in the Finder windows. Horrible! The panels and windows are a darker grey, too. Those are NOT improvements. Tiger was so perfect... why did they have to change the UI? But, apart from those cosmetic issues: no technical problems. Works like a Swiss watch, is quick, and beautifully integrated with the hardware (a MacBook Pro). It really seems the guys at Apple know what they are are doing. I did an "archive and install" (so, so easy!) and all my apps work beautifully (and for some there are already minor updates available). Everything works as advertised, and it is definitely a nice, but by no means mandatory, upgrade. Apple, you did a great job on the nuts and bolts department, but the paint job is, well, blah.

All the annoyances are minor. (1)

FellowConspirator (882908) | more than 6 years ago | (#21211459)

I never saw the blue screen, but I know better than to use a hack like APE.

For me, upgrading went with only one hitch: for no apparent reason, Leopard changed the name of my printer from "HP Photosmart 8200 series" to "HP Photosmart 8250". From the standpoint of the system, it made no difference, but from the standpoint of other systems in the house that were printing through my machine, they got confused because the queue had been renamed. Easy to fix, but an annoyance all the same.

Aesthetics are too subjective to consider anything but a minor annoyance -- the visual changes are pretty minor (actually, the untextured background to menus is a big plus for me).

As far as new features go, everything appears to work precisely as one would hope.
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