YouTube Video Warned About School Shooting 426
mytrip writes to tell us that CNN is reporting at least eight dead in a Finland school shooting that was apparently planned out in graphic videos posted to YouTube. "YouTube appeared to have removed 89 videos linked to his account, many of them featuring Nazi imagery, shortly after the incident. Finnish media reported someone posted a message two weeks ago on the Web site, warning of a bloodbath at the school. A video posted earlier Wednesday, by 'Sturmgeist89,' was titled 'Jokela High School Massacre - 11/7/2007.' 'Sturmgeist89' identified himself as Auvinen, and said he chose the name 'Sturmgeist' because it means 'storm spirit' in German."
Interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
Freaky stuff.... [zami.pp.fi]
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Insightful)
People always telegraph their intentions beforehand, but seeing it is almost always reserved for after the fact. Most attempts to predict this sort of behaviour run aground on the fact that it doesn't sound all that different from regular messed up behaviour. Of course a lot of people would like to stomp that out, but a lot of antisocial people still don't go to the point of mass murder...or even solo murder, or self-murder.
I look at things like this, and my first response is never: "Oh gosh, we should have seen it coming!" For every real nutjob, there are a hundred others who are just being young, alienated, and angry. Every quasi-normal action is held up as a "warning sign" and every admittedly abnormal action is magnified, and then used to villify people who "should have seen it coming."
I don't know. Just my experience that, every time something like this happens, it's used as an excuse to harass people who don't fit the "normal" mold, whatever the hell that is, and when, in reality, 99% of the people you're harassing have done nothing wrong, and will do nothing wrong.
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I can't count the number of times myself or someone else in elementary, middle, and high school got pissed off and said 'i'm going to kill you'.
No shooting that I recall and I put in 15 years. 1600 people at my high school.
Better question..."where were the parents" when google wasn't filtering the internet, youtube didn't have a therapist review every post, the school didn't notice the anti-social behavior, his friends didn't let anyone know he was so disturbed... No
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For the number of people who dream of getting a gun and mowing down their high school (myself included on several occasions, and I was in college when Columbine happened), the number of people who actually do it is as low as can be.
I certainly think parents are the first line of defense. Teacher's can't be expected t
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Interesting (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a difference between things that feel good and things that are good for you. Catharsis feels good. Freud told us that catharsis was good for us. Freud also was full of shit.
Here's the deal. Our lives are full of circumstances that provoke us or challenge our assumptions and expectations. If you let things continue to do that, you will have anger. There are many ways to deal with this:
1. Accept the limitations of the situation. Find other ways to get what you want.
2. Use the anger to get energy to overcome the challenges in ways that respect others.
3. Use the anger to get energy to overcome your sense of empathy and ignore the rights of others.
4. Ignore your desire to do something about the challenges. Get depressed.
Violent fantasies do not reduce anger. "Venting" does not reduce anger. They both just increase it. You don't realize that they increase anger when you do it, because anger without a solution feels bad, and dominance and/or validation from others feels good. The good feeling you get after violent fantasies or from venting is not the antithesis of the original anger you felt, though- it's a reward for your anger. This can be good, if you were doing strategy 4 and, because of your increased anger, are ready to go to strategies 1 or 2. But if that's not the transition in strategies that's going to take place, then there's no benefit.
Side note: where did people get the idea that "therapeutic" meant "feels nice"? Improving one's health (mental or physical) very often involves sacrifice and changing habitual ways of thinking and acting. Things that feel nice like "therapeutic" shampoo or "therapeutic" massages or "therapeutic" whatever do nothing by themselves to promote growth or change.
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And that's where you're really, really wrong (alternatively I could've just mistunderstood what you meant by "Venting", but if you're referring to working off your anger about topic A with completely unrelated topic B, it works). Example: This monday my (hate to type those two letters, but I guess they're true now) ex-girlfriend (cue "Welcome Back to /." jokes) dumped me. For the next hours you may or may not be able to imagine how fucking angry I was (hint: "very, very, ver
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
May be, not are (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm willing to believe that they may be therapeutic in some cases where people have their fantasy and move on. However there are also people who dwell on them and that is certainly not therapeutic or cathartic.
It's the same thing but from my experiences with depression the human brain can certainly get stuck in an unhealthy loop and focus repeatedly on thing
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Re:Interesting (Score:5, Insightful)
it's not that complicated (Score:3, Insightful)
none of theat matters
but when you threaten a school, no matter how obliquely, you should be arrested
this guy did that. the rest doesn't matter
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Are any of these threats? None of them? If we arrest the people making them, are we removing a
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I don't know, how many videos are there up on youtube with kids brandishing guns and talking about shooting shit up? How many of them would really do it? And how many are you willing to lock up to prevent the rare nutjob?
Or hell, let's take this case. Say somebody had seen his videos, and connected it with him, and contacted the authorities. They'd probably take his gun away and make him s
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Grammar? On Slashdot, only Grammar Nazis use grammar!
Idiot (Score:2)
The most stupid thing you can do is go on a mass shooting and then kill yourself. You
It's the media (Score:4, Funny)
Well, someone had to say it.
Re:It's the media (Score:5, Insightful)
Interestingly, the news interviewed a friend of his who apparently hadn't noticed anything much more than the kid keeping to himself. It seems to have come as a surprise to everyone.
The shooter's manifesto also claimed that he did not wish anyone to be blamed for his own actions. It seems he saw the media reaction coming.
Ultimately, much depends on the survival of the shooter. When I last saw the news at 22:00 local time he was alive but in a critical state after having shot himself in the head. If he does survive the aftermath will hopefully have less guessing to be done.
There's a Wikipedia article about the Jokela school shooting [wikipedia.org] as well, with some bits and pieces of information.
Re:It's the media (Score:4, Insightful)
The truth of it is, those warning signs are almost never obvious beforehand, because if they were, someone would have locked the guy up. A lot of the behaviour which is "obvious evidence of psychosis" could have a lot of interpretations if the person never kills anyone.
I hope people are more sane in Finland than over here in the states, because something like that happening here would provoke nothing but unproductive attempts to restrict freedoms, hours and hours of meaningless television commentary, and a host of lawsuits.
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one goes to the doctor if one get a runny nose or similar, but going to a psychologist when the world caves in on one is a lot tougher...
hell, one could maybe say that every teen should have a round of evaluation. they get medical checkups for physical issues do they not?
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As an acquaintance of another school shooter (Gang Lu [wikipedia.org]) I am not surprised by this observation. No one saw it coming then, either.
Ultimately, much depends on the survival of the shooter.
His death is now being reported.
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as in, he talks about himself as natural selection incarnate and similar.
basically he convinced himself that he had a right, and even a duty do to what he did...
do anyone see a parallel to terrorists in general, or even the speeches of world leaders before they go to war/intervention?
makes me wonder what humans are able to do if they convince themselves that its the correct thing to do.
hell, you could probably replace "natural select
Don't ban YouTube (Score:5, Funny)
While you're at it, ban guns, condoms, Gucci, sharp objects, blunt objects, Hello Kitty, the internet, pipes, pr0n, "Humanity is overrated" T-shirts, cottage cheese, IBM, plastic rulers, bubble gum, cloned sheep, ballpoint pens, Ray-Ban glasses, Fark, and Day-Glo. Oh, and CowboyNeal.
The children. Think of the children, for god's sake.
Re:Don't ban YouTube (Score:5, Funny)
I'm almost with you here man, but what do you have against cottage cheese?
Re:Don't ban YouTube (Score:5, Funny)
Because it gets into thighs somehow and is capable of totally ruining the view at the beach.
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this is fun!
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When we're done, I'll buy you a sense of humor. Having to dissect and explain my own attempts at it are really depressing, so I want to avoid it in the future.
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Is it less creative than endlessly complaining about what people do on slashdot? :)
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Just remember, Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Real reason for his name... (Score:2, Informative)
How freedom is lost (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How freedom is lost (Score:5, Insightful)
And that may sounds selfish if you know someone who died on 9/11 but I have to live in the US too, so I have just as much chance of dying as anyone. People die from guns; worth it for the freedom to own guns. People die from drugs; worth it to have the freedom to control your own body. People die from terrorist attacks; worth it to have freedom and privacy. The only way you can win against terrorism is by not fighting it and LIVING FREE. Don't take stupid risks, but by far the bigger danger is from over correcting and NOT from doing too little. This is not something people like to hear, and so we get stories like this one and the politicians take away our guns, our drugs, our privacy and we say it's worth it to protect ourselves. I fear that the sun will rise on a day when a generation of Americans wakes up and finds that they no longer have any freedoms left to give.
Of course it is. (Score:5, Insightful)
The real issue is, 9/11 won't happen again. As a country, we've learned our lesson about "just sit tight and wait" when it comes to plane hijacking. Box cutter? You best have a flamethrower next time, because me and everyone in business class are going to beat you to death with our laptops as soon as you start trying to wave that piddly crap in our faces. Akbar Macbook, Bitch!
It was a surprise. People bought it. That day has passed. But in response we have done unto ourselves far worse things than they could have ever hoped to have accomplished. Massively stupid.
And we will have other successful attacks on our soil. It's inevitable that, over time, everyone will miss someone. The occasional deranged teen will go on a shooting rampage. The occasional terrorist will pull off a successful attack.
But the fact that there is a possible danger is not a reason to upend your entire society. Analyze, find your mistakes, and correct them...Don't throw out a system that failed once, and try to replace it whole cloth with something new, designed by committee! Ridiculous.
The Geek as "Rambo" (Score:4, Interesting)
This is real world and not the video game, more likely you will doing something involuntary...and messy.
It would be altogether extraordinary if you were physically and emotionally prepared to challenge a close-combat trained killer who had just slit the throat of a stewardess to make his point.
Waterboarding (Score:3, Interesting)
Torture extracts what you want to hear and not want you need to know. The terrorist who risks capture has probably memorized enough false leads and plausible scenarios to keep his interrogators occupied for months. He will have been trained to sacrifice his pawns to protect his queen. He may not even know how much of the truth he holds himself.
Finland and the Nazis (Score:5, Interesting)
However, Finland has a unique relationship with Nazism that Americans and other Europeans don't really know much about. The history of Finland during the Second World War [wikipedia.org] is quite different from any other country. To a certain extent, the Nazis could be argued as the saviours of Finland, because historically Finland's greatest struggle has always been with Russia.. and to that extent, Germany was a natural ally during WW2.
The dichotomy is that the Finns are a democratic and fair-minded people, and the Nazis were exactly the opposite. But as the famous saying goes, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" - and this is precisely what happened during the war.
I'm not saying that Finns are fascists, and I'm not even saying that *many* Finns are fascists, but what I am saying is that perhaps Finland is the *only* state that at least partly owes its ongoing independence to co-operation with the Nazis. That's why I'm not completely surprised to read about Auvinen's Nazi obsession.. it's a disturbing secret of Finnish history.
Re:Finland and the Nazis (Score:5, Informative)
Nazi Germany was an ally to Finland, but they were a bitter enemy afterward. This is why any neo-nazi in Finland is by definition utterly fucking bonkers, just like an overt Stalinist would be (though perhaps a bit less than the same Stalinist in today's Russia).
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Nazi Germany was an ally to Finland, but they were a bitter enemy afterward. This is why any neo-nazi in Finland is by definition utterly fucking bonkers
Know what's even more fucked up? Neo-Nazis in Russia - and there are more than a few. I suppose this can be explained by the way Nazism was portrayed as the direct opposite of socialism, and the hatred of socialism among many there. But know what's even MORE fucked up? "National Bolshevism", a mixture of Nazism and (ostensibly) Bolshevism. Their symbol is the Nazi flag with the black swastika in the center replaced by a black sickle-and-hammer.
Re:Finland and the Nazis (Score:5, Informative)
This was a marriage of convenience, and it must be pointed out that for example Finland never joined Germany in their ethnic cleansing plans. We actually had a Jewish synagogue out there at the front -- fighting against the Soviets! Marshall Mannerheim, the country's lead figure at the time and a cosmopolitan gentleman and officer from the Czar's army originally, was personally disgusted by Hitler, whom he considered to be a barbarian. Yes, we have German ties and being made to march to Siberia by Stalin was the worse option. I would strongly disagree with your idea that we might have had much Fascist sympathies during the time -- our extreme right wing was suppressed during the 20s and 30s right after the extreme left wing was suppressed after Civil War. We remained remarkably centrist and democratic throughout the whole ordeal.
Re:Finland and the Nazis (Score:5, Informative)
Mannerheim had to deal with Hitler because we needed the weapons. Doesn't mean you have to like the chap personally to do diplomacy.
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You are wrong. I have a good knowledge of this, because my granduncle [google.com] was the prime minister of Finland during WWII and I heard this story from my parents who saw it firsthand. Finland was at war with Russia, when the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were allies [google.com].
At that time, Churchill himself praised Finland as the savior of the world [google.com]: "Only Finland - superb, nay, sublime - in the jaws of peril - Finland shows what free men can do. The
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Small world. Personally I sold Pia my old car for $200 bucks a few years ago and dated a friend of a friend of hers.
She moved out to California last I heard, doing modeling.
But more to on topic, Finland stayed independent by making a deal with the Soviets to kick the Germans out after being able to hold the Soviets off for a while during 1944. So, allies turned enemies and Stalin didn't really seem that interested in infiltrating Finland after the war.
Here we go again (Score:2)
Shooting appeared to have been planned in series of YouTube videos
What is it with the mainstream media and their strange assumptions regarding technology and violence. I find it peculiar that as soon as some youngster starts shooting people for no reason, the media will investigate what video games he used to play, Facebook profiles, Youtube videos and whatnot.
No one 'plans' an assassination by uploading videos to the public. He was just trying to reach out to people with similar thoughts. The videos told a story of a guy who was greatly influenced by e
The problem is OBVIOUS. (Score:2)
-G
At the meetings... (Score:2)
Hi, Bob!
Why did YouTube remove the videos? (Score:2)
Text from his YouTube profile (before it was suspe (Score:5, Informative)
Channel Views: 72,410
aka NaturalSelector89 (3/15/2007 - 10/19/2007).
YouTube suspended my previous account but I am back now
http://rapidshare.com/files/68 [rapidshare.com] 015773/Pekka-Eric_Auvinen___Jo kela_High_School_Massacre.zip
Name: Pekka-Eric Auvinen
Age: 18
Male from Finland.
I am a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial socialdarwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist.
SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM! JUSTITIA SUUM CUIQUE DISTRIBUIT! SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS!
I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.
You might ask yourselves, why did I do this and what do I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closed-minded to understand... You will proprably say me that I am"insane", "crazy", "psychopath", "criminal" or crap like that. No, the truth is that I am just an animl, a human, an individual, a dissident.
I have had enough. I don't want to be part of this fucked up society. Like some other wise people have said in the past, human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing. But... When my enemies will run and hide in fear when mentioning my name... When the gangsters of the corrupted governments have been shot in the streets... When the rule of idioracy and the democratic system has been replaced with justice... When intelligent people are finally free and rule the society instead of the idiocratic rule of majority... In that great day of deliverance, you will know what I want.
Long live the revolution... revolution against the system, which enslaves not only the majority of weak-minded masses but also the small minority of strong-minded and intelligent individuals! If we want to live in a different world, we must act. We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. I can't alone change much but hopefully my actions will inspire all the intelligent people of the world and start some sort of revolution against the current systems. The system discriminating naturality and justice, is my enemy. The people living in the world of delusion and supporting this system are my enemies.
I am ready to die for a cause I know is right, just and true... even if I would lose or the battle would be only remembered as evil... I will rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.
And remember that this is my war, my ideas and my plans. Don't blame anyone else for my actions than myself. Don't blame my parents or my friends. I told nobody about my plans and I always kept them inside my mind only. Don't blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It's time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!
Justice renders to everyone his due.
Country: Finland
Occupation: Unemployed Philosopher, Outcast
Companies: Human Race (evolved one step above though)
Interests and Hobbies: Existentialism, Freedom, Truth, Misantrophy, Social / Personality Psychology, Evolution Science, Political Incorrectness, Women, BDSM, Guns (I love you Catherine), Shooting, Computer Games, Sarcasm, Irony, Mass / Serial Killers, Macabre Art, Black Comedy, Absurdism
Films and Shows: The Matrix, A View To A Kill, Falling Down, Natural Born Killers, Reservoir Dogs, Last Man Standing, Full Metal Jacket, Dr. Butcher MD (aka Zombie Holocaust), Saw 1-3, Lord Of War, The Deer Hunter, True Romance, The Untouchables, 28 Days Later, 28 Weeks Later, Idiocracy, They Live, Apocalypse Now, End Of Days, The Shining, The Dead Zone, Dr. Strangelove,
Oh, how fucking original... (Score:3, Interesting)
Word of advice, you fuckwit: the Will to Power does not involve random murder. Nor does killing a bunch of people including yourself count as a good move, evolutionarily speaking.
Shit. If I didn't know he'd actually done it, I'd think this was a joke. You couldn't get a more perfect stereotype of the school shooter. This is just made for the media - I almost wonder if he wrote this on purpo
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Re:Text from his YouTube profile (before it was su (Score:2)
Re:Text from his YouTube profile (before it was su (Score:3, Informative)
zomg t3h hindsight (Score:2)
The sad part... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:The sad part... (Score:4, Insightful)
For those who aren't following the story: (Score:4, Informative)
He was bullied at school (Score:3, Interesting)
Videos (Score:3, Informative)
In this one he is target practicing on an apple:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=90d_1194444897 [liveleak.com]
This video is a bunch of stills; a picture of his school, and various pictures of him with his gun:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=369_1194449557 [liveleak.com]
Dan East
Save the World (Score:5, Insightful)
There was recently a public service announcement on TV that went somewhere along the lines of: Yeah, your friend may flake out on you, or act withdrawn sometimes, but what someone suffering from a mental illness needs most is a friend.
I know that it is human nature for people to make friends with people who fit in similar niches as themselves. And maybe in an idealized view of smaller communities of yesteryear, someone suffering from a mental illness would be more accepted, if only out of necessity (or maybe not). But it is not hard to imagine how in modern society, with so much emphasis on a mobile society and independence, that a person with only a mild case of mental illness could find themselves suddenly isolated and without a support group of family and friends. This could make an illness that was once barely noticeable to become dishabilitating.
Yes, people are free to choose to improve there circumstances or seek assistance, but if there is anything which Nazism and Stalinism taught us it is that even normal people can act in horrible ways given the (im)proper environment. And before this analogy is lost on you, remember that people with mental illnesses generally have either genetically-determined imbalances in their brain chemistries, or else traumatic past experiences. Most people don't wake up one day and decide to become mentally ill.
So instead of making jokes about people that we know as being "the next mass murderer/serial killer/etc" and effectively shunning said person, we should try to include them into our social circle. Otherwise we are just complaining about the symptoms without bothering with the inoculation. It's our society, if everyone did something small we could avert at least some of these tragedies.
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Re:Obviously (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Obviously (Score:5, Funny)
No, they shouldn't be arrested but simply shot on sight.
Officer: "Are you H4wTKat666?"
H4wTKat666: "lolz yaeh y?"
Officer: "Did you post this?"
*lolz OMG u r a fag. tHeys is FAKE!11!oneone*
H4wTKat666; "lolz yaeh"
*Officer shoots H4wTKat666*
I guess in afterthought, this could be in bad taste. Oh well.
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Re:What's Nerd about this Article? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What's Nerd about this Article? (Score:5, Funny)
How is this nerd news?
He posted to YouTube! (That's on the intarweb) /. readers)
He is an alienated youth! (like many
Linus Torvalds is also Finnish! (though they probably did not know each other)
Geek - O - Rama
Re:Obviously (Score:4, Interesting)
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Umm, I think the survivors of a particular genocide can call it whatever the
Re:Obviously (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Obviously (Score:5, Insightful)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears [wikipedia.org] (forced relocation, numerous examples here as well)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre [wikipedia.org] (machine guns turned on women and children)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/281/22/2127.pdf [ama-assn.org] (smallpox used as a biological weapon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_treaties [wikipedia.org] (hundreds of broken treaties)
I'm already bored with this, but I could certainly keep going.
I'll grant you that the holocaust is far more recent, but that doesn't really make it somehow more terrible nor more relevant.
Lots of people get the shaft on a regular basis. Yes, European Jews of the 40's are in that crowd. No, we probably shouldn't infringe on someone's right to question whether or not it happened (or at least happened exactly as it was reported.)
If I have to permit people to claim that there is no God, you also get to permit people to claim things you believe to be false.
Right?
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I don't agree with this. I see at least two issues why the Holocaust's recentness does make it more terrible or relevant than many other genocides.
1) The Holocaust was industrialized genocide. It required the tools of an industrial society and economy to run and manage. To participate in the Holocaust you didn't really make a choice to kill the Jews, you did just your job, be it reco
Re:Obviously (Score:4, Insightful)
They are less than human, and we will take what they have through any means necessary.
I realize that they SAID different things while they were doing it, but personally I would actually put this in the 'Pro' column for the Nazis. If you were Jewish you KNEW that the Nazis couldn't be trusted, and as a feature of this many, many people got out before it was too late. The Native American was shamelessly duped over and over again by a government that claimed to be a friend, claimed to treat them as equals, etc. This is far more dispicable in my humble opinion...
The holocaust refers to an event in history (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Obviously (Score:4, Informative)
I dig why you'd be upset, but it ain't good karma.
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Re:Crazy Idea (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes, lets give children guns, look at how well thats working out for them in African countries in civil war.
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The problem is 100% of people having handguns is more likely to happen as you cannot take guns away from people who illegal posses them.
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Here in the United States, practically everyone has a car, and somewhere over 99% of those have obtained a license ostensibly proving that they've been educated in their use. And yet the road is still full of people acting like idiots and jeopardizing both their own lives as well as those around them (case in point [slashdot.org]).
Do you really want to give those people guns?
"Next time some idiot points his AK-47 at a crowd"
He'll be guaranteed to have access to a firearm
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1. One man with a gun will shoot until people brave enough can close and overpower him. There are precious few people of that nature, obviously, borne out by the story. The sixty people will be aiming at the one man and funneling their shots into a small space. He will be swiss-cheesed in short order.
2. The many survivors will all point to the puddle of bullet ridden excrement and tell the police who started the crap. Police rarely arrive on the scene until after violence has abated. In
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That sentence doesn't make any sense. An armed clerk would make it easier for him to obtain a weapon how? Not presuming, as you might be that he would of course kill the clerk. It also has no bearing whatsoever on his knowing how to use a weapon.
No. The vast majority of gun owners do not act in that manner and in all probablilty would recognize the novelty item or at least hold the draw on him unt
Why is parent modded up? (Score:2)
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It's called "sarcasm." Look it up [wikipedia.org].
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Yet.
There may never be one, because it's in Finland, and their "ZOMG THINK OF TEH CHILDRENS" reflex is not as annoying as the one in the states.
If it had happened in the states, there would be calls to ban guns, youtube, games, certain types of music (KMFDM again), and calls to arm principles, put armed guards in schools, arm teachers, arm other students...etc.
It's a huge waste of time and energy. This stuff happens. W
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