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Deus Ex 3 Announced

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the machina-goes-without-saying dept.

PC Games (Games) 138

Gamasutra has the news that Eidos is already hard at work on a Deus Ex 3 . The company announced this project along with a brand-new studio in Montreal, which will be developing the title. "According to [General Manager Stéphane D'Astous], Eidos Montreal currently has two groups -- a Q&A group that is responsible for testing all of the developer's games from anywhere in the world, and an in-house development team that D'Astous says has just passed proof of concept for Deus Ex 3. 'This game was very highly rated at its release in 2000, and we have this great huge mandate to do the third one, and everybody is very excited,' added D'Astous"

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I think I speak for everyone ... (4, Interesting)

k_187 (61692) | more than 6 years ago | (#21481883)

When I say "please don't suck, for heaven's sake, please don't suck."

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

XxtraLarGe (551297) | more than 6 years ago | (#21481951)

Maybe it will be a true sequel to Deus Ex (2000), and not a knock-off capitalizing on the franchise.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

Toridas (742267) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482023)

Agreed. Deus Ex 2 was horrible. I couldn't get past the first half hour or so. I have a computer perfectly capable of running Half-Life 2 smoothly on high settings but somehow, Deus Ex 2 just barely chugs along on the lowest settings possible, complete with aiming lag. Not to mention the terrible menu interface made for console controllers instead of for PC gamers.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (4, Interesting)

Elemenope (905108) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482203)

I guess I was one of the lucky ones who had no problems running DX:IW smoothly. (Vampire Bloodlines, OTOH, can suck my...). I loved the original DX with a passion, as one of the few games that broke through the glass ceiling into art from mere entertainment. I liked the sequel very much (from the looks of the comments around I'd say I was one of the few), and while it wasn't quite art the way the first was, it had its own charms, and FWIW in my opinion it did not sacrifice the philosophical and environmental richness of the first, but merely extended it in a direction most people didn't care for.

The "Pequod's/Queequeg's" mini-story was fantastic, and previewed the main plot twist without being clumsy.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

boobavon (857902) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482223)

If you didn't like the first half...the end was horrible. It was like the programmers slapped their dicks on the keyboards and voila, there's the ending.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

johannesg (664142) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482303)

Agreed. Worst case: simplified interface, simplified gameplay, just a plain shooter without any storyline or depth (I'm looking at you Bioshock!). Give us a deep story that has relevance to the world as it is (that *really* shouldn't be hard, given the state of the world), and don't dumb down the ruleset. Add some good locations and you are all set for a fantastic game. And don't give us the fake choices of Deus Ex 2. I'd rather play through a good story with a small choice at the end then having a choice in every level, only for it to make no difference at all in the end...

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

Neon Spiral Injector (21234) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482305)

I played the first title on the PS2. The controls were great, I could circle strafe and everything.

I tried Invisible War on the Xbox. The look stick was backward from the PS2 layout, and I couldn't even move well enough to get out of my bedroom. Never tried it again.

How hard is it for game makers to allow the configuration of the controls?

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

Danse (1026) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482543)

I played the first title on the PS2. The controls were great, I could circle strafe and everything.

I tried Invisible War on the Xbox. The look stick was backward from the PS2 layout, and I couldn't even move well enough to get out of my bedroom. Never tried it again.
Actually, DXIW was one of the first major tragedies brought on by the attempt to develop console games while simultaneously porting to the PC. You think the interface was bad on the console? You should've tried the PC, it's like they didn't even attempt to make it work there. That along with the tiny levels and several other bad design decisions were responsible for the dumbing-down of the game and the beginning of the consolitis that we started seeing all over the place.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21483347)

It got worse when (not happy with trying to adapt complex game genres to simplistic console interfaces) they started trying to adapt the gameplay to suit console players (typically kids, or people whose idea of mental exercise is finding the blue keycard in Doom).

The result was embellished crap like Oblivion (and oblivion is exactly where it pushed the fundamental principles of the RPG genre).

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486857)

people whose idea of mental exercise is finding the blue keycard in Doom

Fuck you, nigger

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

Seumas (6865) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483035)

I don't care if it sucks. I bought what was purported to be Deus Ex (the original) at the store awhile back. It was cheap, but it had been out for a long time so I thought nothing of it. Nothing about it suggested that it was anything but the full legitimate game.

I got home. Inserted the disk. Played for about five minutes . . . and then it told me that this was a demo and if I'd like to play the entire game, I should order the full $50 version on top of the $20 I already paid for it.

Since then, I have never touched Deus Ex. It could get an 11 out of 10 on every game review on earth and be endorsed by Xenu himself. Not gonna give them a dollar.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21483227)

Torrent it.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21483761)

So, your local retailer scams you out of $20, but somehow this is Eidos' fault? Yeah, right.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

dougmc (70836) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483843)

Yes, you were ripped off. You should complain, loudly, and get your money back. Or should have, whenever this happened. A picture of the screen saying `this is a demo!' and the package that does not say it's a demo should be more than enough to convince any retailer (even places like Wal-Mart with `no software return' policies to refund your money.)


However, that does not change the fact that Deus Ex rocked and Deus Ex 2 sucked.

Also, note that $20 for an old game is not *cheap*. $5 would be cheap, and $10 seems to be the normal cost for their bargain-bin games like that. I know the packaging you're referring to -- the size of a CD case, with minimal if any documentation included. The full game packaging is larger.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

Txiasaeia (581598) | more than 6 years ago | (#21484795)

"Nothing about it suggested that it was anything but the full legitimate game."

I had that version as well (only paid $5 in-store). It had the words "demo" on the cover and back of the jewel case. I know, because I did the same thing you did (although I remember playing it a lot longer for five minutes...) and I was pretty choked when I came to that screen. I still went ahead and bought it, and did not regret it at all.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

urbanriot (924981) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483085)

I was thinking more along the lines of, "Please, for heaven's sake, don't fuck this one up!" The last one was horrid for so many reasons, but primarily because it was consolified and not at all optimized for the superior PC hardware (vs. Xbox), in regards to graphics and controls.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486807)

Eidos plans to leverage other properties & add Lara Croft to the plot... for dual wielding.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

buffer-overflowed (588867) | more than 6 years ago | (#21488483)

It's going to suck, it's a forgone conclusion. They're going to pull an Invisible War/Bioshock and make the primary target consoles, thus dumbing it way the hell down, again, for the console crowd, who will go gaga over it because they think Halo is a fan-fuckingtastic(as opposed to ho-hum average) FPS with a fantastic story(as opposed to incredibly convuluted and shitty and needs books to explain).

This is how these things work. Unless it's PC only, I have no hope for Eidos making a real sequel to Deus Ex. They've already proven they can't do it. In fact only Bethesda, Epic to some degree, and Valve have managed not to absolutely castrate games by embracing the path of the XBox.

I repeat, it is going to suck. Get used to it now and maybe be pleasantly surprised by how little it sucks compared to Invisible War.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21488915)

Bethesda Lol wut? They didn't castrate the Elder Scrolls games right away; Morrowind easily being my favorite of the series, but if Oblivion isn't castrated I don't know what is.

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

buffer-overflowed (588867) | more than 6 years ago | (#21489083)

Bethesda's always done that(also they are always buggy on release). Morrowind is in many ways less complex than Daggerfall(what was it, half a million NPCs, 6 endings, and a far more complex skill/crafting/etc system?).

Re:I think I speak for everyone ... (1)

buffer-overflowed (588867) | more than 6 years ago | (#21488545)

It's going to suck. It's a foregone conclusion. They're going to target consoles as the primary platform, and thus it's going to be incredibly dumbed down like the majority of games fitting that description have been. Stillborn by catering to the console crowd.

Eidos has already proven they can't do it.

So yea, at best it will be less of disappointment than invisible war was, but still more of a disappointment than Bioshock.

Call me when it's PC exclusive and I might hold out some hope of it improving upon the genre or it's progenitor in any way other than fluff-wise.

I'm still trying to figure out... (-1, Offtopic)

TheJerg (1052952) | more than 6 years ago | (#21481891)

Is there something I should know about the gaming scene in Canada?

Re:I'm still trying to figure out... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21482013)

How do you make a game with snow?

Re:I'm still trying to figure out... (0, Troll)

CRiMSON (3495) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482165)

It's called cheap labor, by native (reletivly altho in quebec dual lang) speaking english people. Canada is the new India.

Re:I'm still trying to figure out... (1)

Evangelion (2145) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483055)

Hi, umm, welcome to 2007. Our dollar is worth more than yours.

Re:I'm still trying to figure out... (1)

CRiMSON (3495) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483919)

You don't say? Sure am glad I live in canada then.

Actuall in Montreal (up the street of ubi mtl).

I also work for an Americian Company for the exact reason I said.

It's cheaper to employee Canadians to do a job, then to hire the equivilant Americian.

My counterpart in the US who does the exact same job I do, makes 35k more than I do, so I do the same work, but cheaper). Hence, cheaper labour.

But hey, thanks for pointing the obvious!

Re:I'm still trying to figure out... (1)

0123456789 (467085) | more than 6 years ago | (#21485947)

Just curious; is part of the difference that the employer has to pay for healthcare in the US?

Re:I'm still trying to figure out... (1)

bj bignell (1120471) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483509)

I don't really know the details, but it goes something like this:
  • Ubisoft is a big gaming company based in France
  • Ubisoft sets up shop in big, modern Montreal because of the language and a favourable exchange
  • Everybody else follows suit
  • ???
  • Profit!
We like our games up here, but I don't think there is really anything "special" about the scene up in Canada. Unless, of course, you believe everything Gabe and Tycho [penny-arcade.com] say... [penny-arcade.com]

SLASHDOT SUX0RZ (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21481923)

_0_
\''\
'=o='
.|!|
.| |
e pluribus goatse [goatse.ch]

Re:SLASHDOT SUX0RZ (1)

megaditto (982598) | more than 6 years ago | (#21484835)

Funny thing, doesn't this ASCII figure remind anyone of the Helios AI (post-merger)?
Judge for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Icarus.jpg [wikipedia.org]

heheh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21481949)

notice they talk about the acclaim for the original, released in 2000, not the crappy 2003 sequel--so they aren't ragging on it and talking about what they'll do different, they're just not talking about it at all :P

Re:heheh (1)

j35ter (895427) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482187)

Well, let's give 'em another shot. But before I run into a store and buy this game, I'll sure so something illegal so I can try it out first!

Honestly... (1)

Tom9729 (1134127) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482037)

A lot of people knocked Invisible War, but I had a lot of fun playing it. It wasn't as good as the first game, but honestly if they stick to the basic Deus Ex formula, I think it'll be a pretty good game.

I'm just hoping that it isn't Vista-only...

Re:Honestly... (1)

Enlightenment (1073994) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482099)

Really, even "Vista-only" games aren't Vista-only. See for example Halo 2.

Re:Honestly... (1)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 6 years ago | (#21484297)

Can anyone point me to a WinXP / 2000 fix for Rise of Legends?

Re:Honestly... (1)

Txiasaeia (581598) | more than 6 years ago | (#21484833)

Okay, I'll bite. What fix are you talking about?

Re:Honestly... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21485893)

"Can someone point me to..." apparently he doesn't know of a fix either... so what does 'okay Ill bite' do? Someone needs to take a second before they respond and learn some reading comprehension.

Re:Honestly... (1)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487379)

I should have said Windows 2000 fix. It will install in Windows 2000 (using the /a switch) but you can't play it. It does a OS version check for WinXP, which I have on my laptop, but was really wanting to play it on my desktop.

Re:Honestly... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21483593)

I thought it was so realistic in IW when you shot someone with the sniper rifle and they'd... do a 360-degree cartwheel (maybe two) before the body would flummox to the ground.

In DX I liked the story and the characters. In IW I just wanted to kill every one of those lame excuses for NPC's you encountered. Seriously, a giant pyramid?

I join the chorus on DX3: Yes please, but please don't fuck this up.

I'm surprised (1, Flamebait)

Schmapdi (840038) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482109)

After the disaster that was Deus Ex 2. Both it and Theif III were ruined by simultaneous Xbox development a few years back. Here's hoping they make a Thief IV at some point as well and don't screw it up.

Re:I'm surprised (1)

Dunkz (901542) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482227)

Agreed. I still put DE1 as one of my favs of all time. I couldn't play DE2 for more than about 2 hours before I gave up on it.

Re:I'm surprised (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21482577)

Oh c'mon, Thief 3 wasn't THAT bad. You just had to spend an hour or two de-consolizing the UI before you could play it. Afterwards it was actually kind of fun. And lets not forget that Thief 3 is home to one of the best horror levels to ever grace a FPS (The Cradle).

Unfortunatly, Deus Ex 2 was beyond redemption.

Re:I'm surprised (0, Flamebait)

toad3k (882007) | more than 6 years ago | (#21484019)

Thief 3 was horrid. The graphics sucked. Every stage was broken into 10 different subareas with a 30 second loading screen in between each. Even on the hardest settings, there were times I would walk right up to a guard and breath on his eyeball only to elicit, "Hello? Is anyone there?" Inane puzzles with no plot to speak of as far as I could tell. That game fucking blew. I only spent $20 on it and I still felt ripped off.

In fact when I heard deus ex was using the thief 3 engine, I decided not to buy it, and based on a cursory glance at the rest of this forum, I made a wise choice.

Thief 2 was actually many times better than 3 on many levels despite being archaic. At the very least, it had competent level design.

And on topic, while I'm happy to hear they are making a new deus ex, I'm not holding out any hope of it being good. Because when it comes down to it, what can they do in an fps that hasn't already been done to death? Nothing really. The game is doomed to be mediocre out of the gate.

Re:I'm surprised (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21488037)

Thief 3 graphics were obviously better than Thief 2, most levels were broken into 2 (not 10) different areas, AI was better than Thief 2 (only real problem was they couldn't see your shadow). The plot was quite clear (but obviously still too subtle for you too understand). And I don't remember "puzzles" in other thief games either. You are a fucking idiot.

Re:I'm surprised (1)

Schmapdi (840038) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486533)

I tried using that Thief III mod that was supposed to fix the UI issues. It helped a little. The real problem though was that Thief III was supposed to be played in the third person (for some insane reason) and the awkward implementation of that caused Garret to move like a linebacker. In addition - Thief III was verly poorly coded - and thus it ran like crap on my system (a system that ran the technically superior Doom 3 just fine). In fact - I even tried playing it a few times later after upgrading some hardware, so even well exceeding the recommended specs it ran like poo. I'm afraid I never got to the level you mention - the aformentioned problems made me quit with disgust a few levels in.

Re:I'm surprised (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21484221)

Not a fair comparison. Deus Ex 2 was crippled in too many ways to count; Thief 3 only really suffered in that its levels were too cramped, and it still had some fine moments, even if it never really lived up to the greatness of its predecessors.

Apparently there were plans for a Thief 4, but it was going to be set in the present day. Thank God they shelved that, and long may it stay shelved...

Re:I'm surprised (2, Funny)

rishistar (662278) | more than 6 years ago | (#21485527)

Well even if this game gets terrible previews and people slating it before it gets released, I reckon the game still has a chance of being brilliant thanks to last minute unforseen intervention. I mean, thats what Deus Ex Machina is for, right?

Woop woop! (0, Offtopic)

Medenus (1189293) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482123)

Hm, working in their Q&A department might be a nice cushy job! *rummages around his desk* WHERE'S MY RESUME?!

It's All in the Design. (4, Interesting)

Plekto (1018050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482465)

The two biggest problems with Deus Ex 2 were the levels and the perspective.

- The levels were cramped and very much like Doom 3. You didn't get the feeling that you got in the original, where long-range sniping and so on was possible as well as being way out of the hearing range of others. The original also had a lot of locations, almost reminiscent of Hitman. Multiple ways to get places and do things(and screw up as well), and a dead-simple interface.

We would rather figure out our levels and make things happen and have a lot less DOOM push the button, go through the twisty maze. Otherwise, I might as well play MYST. Pretty pictures... find the button in the room...

- The perspective in the second game as a disaster. It made everything look oddly semi-first person, but not really. So distance and movement was just off. A good example is to compare it to the original Halo. If you get this wrong, you end up with something that feels like you're playing in a PS 1 game instead of a simulation.

- #3 (there are way more than two things wrong with the second game)- The graphics in the original were fantastic. They had a simplicity and a lot less eye-candy, but game designers need to understand that raytracing and applying visual effects to everything just doesn't cure poor design. A good example of this is to compare Halflife 2 to FEAR. HL2 has a look and feel that is crisp and clean and low on silly blooming and effects, and FEAR is a CPU destroyer despite having tiny levels - because they put four tons of eye-candy in it. A good example of this is a game like Gran Turismo. Our eyes don't change how they operate short of silly speeds and acceleration, yet if you compare this to Need for Speed, where they artificially introduce motion blur...

Well, you see my point.

#4 - make it for PC only and THEN port it. Console games that end up on PC are essentially crippled right from the start.

Re:It's All in the Design. (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483697)

The graphics in the original were fantastic.

I don't know if I'd go THAT far. The character designs especially were very crude, even by the standards of the time, and while the textures were definitely serviceable, they weren't really above average. Not that it matters, by the way, Deus Ex is possibly my favorite computer game of all time, but I definitely think that graphically it could have been better.

Re:It's All in the Design. (2, Insightful)

MikShapi (681808) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486171)

Agreed on #4.

I think you've missed out on #0 though:
DE was an RPG. A REAL RPG, not some wannabe with two and a half RPG elements a-la NOLF or Bioshock. Not only did it have XP and a level-up system, it had an extremely developed weapon customization system. AND, it was PERFECTLY balanced and tuned.

DE:IW was a DISASTER in this respect. The leveling system had you reach the peak of your profficiency on the second level of the game and was as balanced as a scale with me on one side and a cathedral on the other.

Weapon customization was bastardized and crippled into oblivion. And one of the MOST IMPORTANT aspects of RPG's - resource management (in shooter RPG's, that's mostly ammo), was simply removed and replaced with a "universal ammo" (which never runs out, hence "neverending universal ammo") under the assumption that the player couldn't be bothered with the challenging game, and is nothing but a potato-brain redneck that wants guns to be shooting.

It wasn't an RPG. It wasn't even a shooter with RPG elements. For what it claimed to be, it was dumbed-down. For what it actually was - a vanilla shooter a-la quake and doom - it was not a very good one.

Advice to DE3 devs:
GO BACK AND HAVE A VERY HARD THINK ABOUT WHAT MADE THE ORIGINAL SO GOOD.

The Short:
REWARD THE PLAYER FOR BEING SMART,
(rather than bringing down the level of the game to the lowest common denominator of gamers who couldn't be bothered by anything except running an outlined path so as to complete the main plot in as little time as possible, shooting stuff while doing so.)

The Long: DE1 It was BALANCED WELL. What people like is not getting the ubercustomizedweapon as soon as possible (level 2) in the game. They like going through the process of upgrading it (through lots of things that are hard to find and require combinations of skill-use, creativity, hard-to-get money, role-playing and NPC interaction and player perception to attain) and gradually specializing in it using XP that is, you guessed it, hard to obtain as well.

Most importantly, make hard-to-find stashes have LUCRATIVE stuff, not trivial "health packs" or upgrades for a weapon nobody needs anyway cuz a weapon can only accept two altogether, and they're already being used). Reward the player not for having bought your game (putting everything worthwhile to be found in the game in his path, without even the possibility of side-stepping it), but reward the player for TRYING HARD.

DE1 was built so well, I replayed it 4 times, and I kept finding new secret niches and caches I haven't found on previous times I've played.

Alternatively, assume the general casual-gaming console public is who you are building the game for, that the public can't have any not-completely in-your-face-easy challenges imposed on it lest it be scared away, turn your game into Yet Another Typical Shooter, and try to squeeze six more sales from the piece of art you bastardized by greed (like was done last time).

But from us people who actually facilitated the rise of the first game into the top games ever and allowed you to make it into a franchise, PLEASE, PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE,

DON'T.

Following on from your points (1)

FoamingToad (904595) | more than 6 years ago | (#21490249)

I also have to comment on the stability of DX2, which was absolutely dreadful.

I got the game shortly after its release, prompted more by its predecessor's success than any great hope in the sequel. I uninstalled it rapidly - the bog-awful performance on my machine at the time (AMD 3200+ / Geforce 5600 / 1GB RAM) discouraged me to the point of uninstalling.

A patch came that was supposed to improve performance. From it being unplayable it dropped to merely molasses-slow. No real improvement. Uninstalled again.

Short of entertainment, earlier this year I decided to retrieve DX2 and give it another go. I'm onto my second 64-bit twincore, there's 3GB of decent DDR2 behind it and an SLI rig. Installed and yes, it plays - reasonably. It doesn't seem as fast as HL2, Prey, Oblivion, or even Bioshock (all of which came much later) - but hey, that's maybe just me.

I got out of the early stages and into the Arcology in Egypt. Ok, the game isn't as good ad DX but I was in the mood for some hokum. While wandering about the city the game crashed. Hard. Gah.

Reloaded a number of times, and went back a couple of saves, but while wandering around Cairo the game would crash to desktop with appalling regularity.

Ok, the machine I'm trying to play DX2 on is not what the game was designed to run on, but I'd have thought I'd have been able to play through once. But no, it's been consigned back to electronic oblivion again.

I hope that the development team have their hearts in the right place and look towards Deus Ex for inspiration as this was one of the defining moments of PC gaming for me. But for god's sakes:

[1] No tiny levels. If I see the loading screen more than two times in a fifteen-minute period, then the levels are FAR too small.

[2] Don't steer me through the game. If I want to play something 'on rails', I'll go back to Half-Life 2.

[3] For god's sake, test the damn thing. On a current PC - not a godsdamned console.

They learned a lot from Deus Ex 2 (5, Funny)

roystgnr (4015) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482225)

Although getting rid of those nasty complicated parts like "complex plot", "skills" and "unique ammo" did make Deus Ex 2 more accessible to console game players, there were still people out there who lacked the higher cognitive functions and opposable thumbs necessary to really immerse themselves in that first sequel. So, some of those innovations will just have to be taken farther:

Linear plot: Although Deus Ex 2 successfully obliterated the choices that players could make in the first game's ending, mushing them all together into some sort of hybrid plot, some players were confused by the residual choices available in the sequel. Deus Ex 3 will prevent further confusion by standardizing the "auto aim" features and adding "auto move", as well as by replacing the "choose your own adventure" style conversations with a new "we chose your adventure, now shut up and listen" interface.

Gun: The unified ammunition, one-size-fits-all inventory, and reduced upgradability of weapon skills in Deus Ex 2 really made that game more accessible to the "can't tie their own shoelaces" audience. Deus Ex 3 will build on this success by replacing the varied and confusing weapon selections from the previous games with "Gun", a generic rifle which will shoot shiny graphics effects and will be the only weapon equipped by the player and all NPCs at all times. Gun will never hurt anyone friendly, will automatically correct your aim when shooting at anyone unfriendly, and will expend no ammunition. Gun will therefore double as a convenient way of eliminating from the game confusing questions about which characters are really good guys and which are really bad guys - shoot 'em all and let Gun sort 'em out!

Box: Because of the wonderful reception that the Deus Ex 2 levels and textures received, we now know that it's just fine to scale back level design for console systems with limited RAM. Accordingly, Deus Ex 3 will be even able to run on all popular handheld game systems, with a few minor plot and setting adjustments to fit the limited level files into available memory. Can you fight your way past the defenders of Square Tunnel and make it to the enemy's hidden Box base?

Length: Although Deus Ex 2 was significantly shorter than the first, it was still way longer than the average movie, and what kind of person wants to sit in front of a screen that long? What are you, some kind of gamer geek? Deus Ex 3 will be 90 minutes; 95 minutes in the "Directors Cut" version.

(disclaimer: Deus Ex: Invisible War was actually an okay game; it just really disappointed by comparison with the first)

Re:They learned a lot from Deus Ex 2 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21482429)

The internet should have been IPX and not TCPIP and you fucking know it.

Re:They learned a lot from Deus Ex 2 (1)

Dahamma (304068) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482713)

Hah, wish I had mod points (but then I'd have to choose between "funny" and "insightful").

Deus Ex was one of the best games ever made, IMO. You'd think given that opinion, I'd have played Deus Ex: Invisible War even if it was mediocre, but I gave up on it after a couple hours. I guess I realized there are a ton of shooters out there, so why would I want to play one that can't even come up with its own original ideas (ie it was a mediocre shooter based on an amazing first person RPG).

Honestly, Bioshock did the same thing - dumbed down the RPG elements and created a very linear story line (admittedly with an extremely well written story). I guess that's the future of "first person RPGs" in the age of the "next gen console". Gotta be accessible to the masses...

Re:They learned a lot from Deus Ex 2 (1)

Von Helmet (727753) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483577)

I bought DX2 for similar reasons - I felt obliged to, given how awesome the first one was. DX2 sucked. After a few levels I gave up trying and just played through it with cheats. I never use cheats to get through a game, but I had to with this. It was just shockingly poor and so dull after the first one, but I felt I had to play it one way or another. I mean, it couldn't be that bad, given that the first was such an epic, right?

Re:They learned a lot from Deus Ex 2 (1)

GenP (686381) | more than 6 years ago | (#21485421)

I need to try it again on my 8800GTS to see if their 'dynamic performance reduction' technology still works. In my experience you couldn't get it to run smoothly on *anything*, except maybe an XBox.

Re:They learned a lot from Deus Ex 2 (1)

Digitus1337 (671442) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482991)

Well said. Deux Ex still stands up as the best game I've ever played. The second one felt like a made-for-consoles tech demo mocking the original. There were so many things done wrong. I talked with the lead and writing staff of the second game, some of which worked on the first game, and they did not seem very happy about having to dumb it down to the new audience. I can't say I appreciate the story all that much, and the controls and some of the game features (universal ammo) were just terrible.

They learned a lot from slashposters. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21484455)

"Well said. Deux Ex still stands up as the best game I've ever played."

Well I can't speak to the "best game ever made"* since I couldn't finish the GOTY version due to a "unable to save" (that means autosaves too). But I will give it an original idea nod and note that while the sequel wasn't all that, the multiple endings were OK.

Re:They learned a lot from Deus Ex 2 (3, Funny)

Kirijini (214824) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483437)

I managed to find a screenshot [gamespy.com] for Deus Ex 3! Based on your description, I mean. Oh, and a release date of 1980.

Gun: the game (1)

Wilson_6500 (896824) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486019)

I would play a game where the hero's main weapon is a telepathic, sentient rifle known as "Gun," being the hero's (and thus the player's) only method of reliably separating good from evil. The game would be a dialog-heavy adventure and involve no direct combat. Even better: make the player take on the role of Gun, being toted around by a high-functioning psychotic with no inherent sense of rationality or morality; the player's job is to instill in the hero these senses, saving him from his mental deficiencies while destroying those who mean to exploit him or do him harm. It'd play like Wonder Project J meets Mass Effect, only the player character is a rifle.

Re:They learned a lot from Deus Ex 2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486443)

Hell, they could go a step further and replace all guns with flashlights!

"Q&A" (1)

FrancoMcNeil (1194507) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482257)

As a Quality Assurance Engineer/Coordinator/Lead/Manager for 10 years, I believe I must stand up and complain about the superfluous "&". I heard [a high-ranking person] of the IGDA call it "Q&A".

Re:"Q&A" (1)

Azarael (896715) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482479)

They are probably mixing up Q&A(Question and Answer) with QA, those short-forms are all the same right..

Re:"Q&A" (1)

Sta7ic (819090) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483407)

I think they're saying that to explain that your job is to try to both maintain quality standards AND assure the devs that they're putting together a quality product, even if 1 & 2 do not match up.

To the developers... (5, Insightful)

MattHawk (215818) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482413)

I have a few words for the developers.

See that 3 in the title? That's just a number. Ignore it. Look only to Deus Ex for inspiration. There never was a Deus Ex 2 - that was all just a figment of the darkest parts of your imagination.

(fwiw, for those who haven't played, Deus Ex 2 wasn't a horrible game, so much as it didn't nearly live up to the first game of the series. It suffered from a massive case of being dumbed down for simultaneous console/PC release, from the original's PC-only origin.)

Re:To the developers... (1)

TeraCo (410407) | more than 6 years ago | (#21484479)

No, seriously. It was a horrible game.

Re:To the developers... (1)

theMerovingian (722983) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486777)


See that 3 in the title? That's just a number. Ignore it.

Highlander fans have this same problem, but we have to say "Ignore Movies # 2,4, and 5, seasons 5 and 6 of the TV show, and anything to do with The Raven."

Re:To the developers... (1)

Synonymous Bosch (957964) | more than 6 years ago | (#21488275)

> See that 3 in the title? That's just a number. Ignore it. Look only to Deus Ex for inspiration.
> There never was a Deus Ex 2 - that was all just a figment of the darkest parts of your imagination.

You mean, like Highlander and Highlander 2?

It'll suck as bad, or worse, then then 2nd did... (4, Interesting)

Zenin (266666) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482417)

I remember reading all the articles and developer interviews as the 2nd game was being designed and built. What was clearly apparent more then anything else was how completely blind they were to what made the first game such a huge hit. They gave themselves credit for a long list of aspects of the first game that barely had anything to do with its success and completely ignored everything that made the game great. The file result was no surprise to anyone that read those interviews and dev blogs.

And then...in the aftermath of the sequel...their interviews again showed they had no idea why their game was a complete and total flop.

They'll screw it up; There's really no chance in hell of them not completely screwing the pooch again. They haven't a clue what they did right or what they did wrong. Go replay the first game; It was great, it's still great, but it was a fluke. The industry isn't setup to create great games like that anymore.

Re:It'll suck as bad, or worse, then then 2nd did. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21482787)

Deus Ex was a critical success, but did not made much money. People who made Invisible War were not blind, they had a clue, but they were only more interested in making money than making a critically acclaimed game. Of course, Invisible War still did not make much money, but that's because as easy and simple as it was. it was still too challenging for the average gamer.

Re:It'll suck as bad, or worse, then then 2nd did. (3, Interesting)

Plekto (1018050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483341)

Probably so. The levels in the original are not merely large. They are a "You are here... what you going to do next, punk?".

Hong Kong in the original was excellent. You had an entire section of the city to explore and when you got there, you had no real idea where to go. "find person X" as opposed to "here's a glowing dot on the GPS". Hitman does this well, especially in the later levels. Your target is in this hotel or other large structure. Find him, get out undetected. That's ALL you know the first time playing.

And the skills were trainable. It had RPG elements and paths and options that forced you to not change. It was common to hold onto an upgrade or even half a dozen of them in order to modify and use that new weapon you knew was coming (Sniper Rifle usually). And if you wanted to say, jump a mile high and do levels easier and in unique ways, well, stealth was forever not an option.

But this is lost in designers from what I can tell. Looks great and less filling? We can't survive on light beer forever. We also need some real thinking games in our diet.

Re:It'll suck as bad, or worse, then then 2nd did. (1)

Zenin (266666) | more than 6 years ago | (#21484507)

Deus Ex's problem was lack of marketing mostly, and maybe a bit to ahead of its time. Ion Storm was in a huge internal mess at the time and didn't really try to do much of anything with Deus Ex. The game got great press because it was a truly, undeniably fantastic game (a rarity...in a game press climate where the review of a game hasn't anything to do with the quality).

It's also much more of a thinking game and quite a bit of it was lost on people that weren't well educated. The story and story items (like the fantastic newspaper articles in the game) relied heavily on real events, conspiracy theory, etc. Most of the story just went over people's heads, most especially gamer teens (the "only" market anyone was looking at at the time).

Now...the industry is well aware of the older, better educated gamers. A game like the original Deus Ex, with the convincing, deep, thought provoking story line and detail oriented game play (the inventory and skills management, the tactical choices to make at every step) would do quite well. Of course...they'd have to market it...and they'd have to stay the hell away from the craptastic FPS shooter experience that is any console.

Which is about as likely as Bush pulling out of Iraq for xmas.

It'll suck as bad, or worse, than 2nd did. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21484583)

"The industry isn't setup to create great games like that anymore."

Yeah! The open source community is like that.

Nice UID. (1)

Cryptnotic (154382) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486063)

srsly.

DX2 crappy by comparison to the original. (4, Insightful)

nrjyzerbuny (141033) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482439)

Like most of the people who will comment here, I really enjoyed the original Deus Ex. Yet I was also very disappointed with DX2. Whenever the discussion of great single-player games comes up, there's usually someone cheering for Deus Ex, closely followed by another comment warning potential players to stay away from the sequel.

The most often cited reasons for the sequels 'suck factor' seem to be the (relative) brevity of the game, small areas with constant loading, as well as the simplification of the interface, inventory management, ammunition/weapon system, and character development. Many of these issues can be seen as the problems inherent with developing for the console market. The original Deus Ex was PC/Mac only, whereas DX2 had to get by without a mouse and keyboard. Those issues are the ones that everyone seems to cite when talking about 'what went wrong', and why DX2 is widely seen as inferior to the original. I believe that this is the case, but it's not the big problem.

The big issue I see is that people know what they are getting in to. The original Deus Ex was long and involved, with a plot that was interesting and unique. When I started the second Deus Ex game, I knew what I was in for. Not the specifics obviously, but the general outline of the game was pretty much known to me within the first hour. While there were some interesting changes made in structure between the first and second games, they were not enough. This is still the story of an augmented special agent, unraveling massive conspiracies, lies, and backstabbing, and ultimately deciding the fate of the world.

Long post short, what I thought was great about Deus Ex was the plot and how it was revealed to the player over the course of some fairly long gameplay, combined with very ambitious (for the day) interactivity. The second game had much the same overarching plot, but the surprise was gone and it didn't pull it off as well. Repetitive plots are the bread and butter of gaming, but the direct comparison between the two makes DX2 suffer.

I could be a great artist, and if I paint a nice half portrait of a young woman seated, dressed in dark colors, and appearing to look back at the viewer, it could be very good on it's own merits. Hang it next to The Mona Lisa, and tell people that there is some connection between the two, and it will garner nothing but scorn.

How to fix these issues for DX3? Good luck.

Modable + Online gaming (1)

SplatMan_DK (1035528) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482477)

Whatever they do, I hope they make it somewhat modable (maps, weapons, AIs, objects, graphics, simple game mechanics). Giving the gaming community the ability to enhance the game, is a good recipe for adding value for both the simple end-customers and the more serious fans.

In addition, they should ensure that the game plays well in online scenarios. Allowing players to connect on a 16-player server is not enough these days - server admins must have tools, scripting platforms, dedicated game servers, etc. in order to ensure continued success of the product.

Both are elements present in every successful game in recent years.

Using an existing gaming platform could ensure these criteria. Using Halflife2/3, CRY Engine or similar is probably costly, but if they implement their work well, the revenue stream will continue for much longer.

- Jesper

Re:Modable + Online gaming (1)

slserpent (898476) | more than 6 years ago | (#21484073)

I think they should stay away from multiplayer or let it be an afterthought like with the original. I've played the original game ten times now and never even considered playing multiplayer, because well...it just didn't need it. Many great games have snubbed the MP aspect and created better singleplayer games because of it...Bioshock, Hitman, HL2, NOLF, Deus Ex, etc.

Re:Modable + Online gaming (1)

halycon404 (1101109) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487175)

If you want multiplayer in Deux Ex... the only way I'd go for it is if the developers hosted the games, with record keeping and everything that entails added in. Then add in the same progression system from the game for skill points, a kill is worth so many points, then after a round you may be able to buy a skill if you have enough points, if not, more rounds. At the end of the round if your team won, you're allowed to buy a weapon mod off the severs, or shelve the point and buy a more expensive biomod later. Space it all out so it takes awhile to top off a character, add in a skill point cap so everyone specializes. Large spacious levels with lots of choke points and several stealthy was in, some of which can only be used if you have the right skills or mods.

In short, I want my character in multiplayer to mean just as much to me as my character in the single player game did, with just as much thought planning and care given to advancement.

We still have the HDTP... (2, Interesting)

andrewd18 (989408) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482563)

Well, even if DX 3 is a massive failure, we'll still have the High Definition Texture Pack to keep us going.

http://offtopicproductions.com/hdtp/about.php [offtopicproductions.com]

Re:We still have the HDTP... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486487)

thanks for that, I was actually contemplating finding my old copy of deus ex to replay it before I heard any of this news, now it's almost a certainty with that hdtp

What platform? (1)

LarsWestergren (9033) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482621)

They don't mention which platform it is for....

Deus Ex 2 was really awful. I read about the "mixed" reviews, but I thought I should give it a chance. I tried to like it, but it was just....awful. Maybe the plot picked up later in the game, but I couldn't continue playing it past the first couple of levels. The performance on PC was dreadful, levels were tiny to accomodate limited console memory. Everything about the interface screamed "console" - the text font was huge so conversations were always very short. When moving things in the inventory you couldn't drag and drop with the mouse, you had to move a square around slowly with the arrow keys, press space to select and deleselect items. Foes ran up to you and then stood still, firing one shot every ten seconds or so. There were multiple paths through obstacles, but unlike the first game the solutions were always glaringly obvious and no challenge.

I personaly believe that designing for console doesn't HAVE to mean dumb down, but this is one title where they clearly had done just that, in spades. It made for a really crappy PC game, and a game that insulted console players' intelligence.

The title that made thousands of PC players familiar with "consolitis". The Deus Ex 3 makers will have an uphill struggle I'm afraid.

Nope no Spector (3, Informative)

OneMemeMofo (901314) | more than 6 years ago | (#21482635)

An article over on bit-tech.net talks about how Warren Spector has no ties to this one. So I wouldn't really expect a return to the exceptionally immersive world of the first Deus Ex. I hope they do take into consideration how badly the second one was rated and sold compared to the first one. However I don't have very high hopes for it. bit-tech.net story: http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/07/24/warren_spector_not_bothered_about_deus_ex_3/1/ [bit-tech.net]

Re:Nope no Spector (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21485769)

An article over on bit-tech.net talks about how Warren Spector has no ties to this one. So I wouldn't really expect a return to the exceptionally immersive world of the first Deus Ex.

Warren Spector was responsible for a lot of the dumbing down in Deus Ex 2, so not having him involved may be a good thing this time around.

Re:Nope no Spector (1)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#21485963)

Warren Spector was a legendary developer, and he is a main reason why the first was so great, and the second title so terrible. He had little influence on the second title, and often apologizes for it.

Spector had a big hand in:

Wing Commander
Ultima
System Shock
Crusader
Deus Ex
Thief

and more.

Maybe the studios should listen to him every once in a while. No Warren Spector means no Deus Ex for me.

Stéphane D'Astous (1)

Selfbain (624722) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483123)

This guy needs to add a few letters to his last name so that he can be Stéphane Disastrous. Now thats a game developer's name.

Well I am not getting my hopes up (1)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483285)

I loved Deus EX, the sequel sucked, Console dumbification. DO you know the difference between a console player and a dead duck? No, you must be a console player.

Yada yada, others have said it, and I repeat it, but my main point is that while there is the slightest glimmer of hope in that they refer to the ORIGINAL as the one that sold and was reviewed well, they don't mention the sequel. This could be good, they realize it was a huge mistake but company politics prevents them from being negative of one of their own products, OR they simply don't realise that for gamers there is a huge difference between the original and the sequel.

I fear they learned nothing, that when they talk of Deus EX being great they mean BOTH games. Yes it is scary but this EA. Remember, they pulled a Deus EX 2 on us before, what is to stop them from doing it again?

TO learn from your mistakes, you first got to admit them.

Will this game be the miracle of gameplay that was the original or the console dumbness of the sequel. Considering what consolites did to the spiritual sequel to System Shock, I am not getting my hopes up.

Re:Well I am not getting my hopes up (1)

MozeeToby (1163751) | more than 6 years ago | (#21484765)

Yes it is scary but this EA.
No... this is Eidos along with a new studio named Montreal.

Re:Well I am not getting my hopes up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21485041)

DO you know the difference between a console player and a dead duck? No, you must be a console player.
Shut it, child. Good games are to be had on all platforms. Fanboyism is for losers.

Re:Well I am not getting my hopes up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21488595)

Nope, only dumbed down PC ports, a few capcom games, music games, some sports games and uhh, that's it on the 360. On the PS3 there's nothing. On the Wii, you better fucking love Nintendo games, quirkiness, niche genres and dead genres, or else you have nothing.

D'oh! (2, Funny)

45mm (970995) | more than 6 years ago | (#21483827)

Just when I thought I had forgotten all about DX2 ... you all had to remind me!

Remake Deus Ex 1 (2, Insightful)

doublefrost (1042496) | more than 6 years ago | (#21484551)

Honestly, I'd be very happy if they remade Deus Ex 1 with the graphics, gameplay, and physics of Halflife 2.

Re:Remake Deus Ex 1 (1)

CommunistHamster (949406) | more than 6 years ago | (#21485685)

Yes, it's strange that games don't get remakes.

Deus Ex? (1)

niteice (793961) | more than 6 years ago | (#21484697)

Crap, I should reinstall it...

No Warren Spector? (1)

mbourgon (186257) | more than 6 years ago | (#21485085)

If Warren's not involved, then let me reiterate the FP: please don't suck, please don't suck, please don't suck
(yeah, I know - he was involved with DX2 and Thief 3, but still...)

Wow (1)

balthan (130165) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486021)

Where'd this game come from?

Q&A? (1)

raiderx (612720) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486033)

What the hell? I guess they have both Quality AND Assurance.

No Spector, no Deus! (1)

hackshack (218460) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486287)

You bastards.

It's not enough that you dumbed down DX2 for consoles, ruining the maps, the story, the weapons, etc. but now you have to make a THIRD game? Listen, the first one was great because of the conspiracies within conspiracies. But it's done! Run its course!

What the hell is the next big surprise in the next big DX remake? We find out JC was a woman?

I'm in the minority here -- did not like Deus Ex (1)

jollyreaper (513215) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486687)

A lot of people did. I'm not faulting them for it. I came by Deus Ex several years after it came out and had some problems with it.

Ok, for starters, the graphics were crappy. Yeah, yeah, a game is more than the graphics alone but there needs to be a good storyline there to make you overlook that. Doctor Who can impress with craptastic sets while a polished turd like Transformers with $300 million in glitz will bore me to tears.

The storyline, as I mentioned, was not engaging. I never really felt seated in the Deus Ex universe and the plot did not grab me. I played as far as a major spoiler point concerning a sibling (being vague for those who might want to play) and I was less than whelmed. Again, this is a matter of opinion.

What really clinched my negative impression is that everything just felt clunky. Combat felt clunky. The skills system felt clunky. The level design and layout was very confusing. When I feel like I have to resort to a cheat guide to get through the game the first time, that feels like bad design. I'm not talking about spoon-feeding the details to the player, I'm talking about providing enough clues so that someone of reasonable intelligence can make their way through the game without undue confusion from poor design choices.

When it comes down to it, this is the sort of problem I had with many of the adventure games from the past like the old Sierra ones. You have to think like the designer in order to solve the puzzles. If you are not working on their same insane wavelength, you will not beat it. The worst example I ever heard was I think from one of the Gabriel Knight games. You had to construct a fake moustache to get into a hotel to see someone. This involved pilfering some scotch tape to place on a hole beneath a wooden fence that you would scare a cat through. Hairs would be caught on the tape and you would use that to create the false moustache and sneak into the hotel. The counter-intuitive steps involved in completing that task beggared the imagination. Nobody questioned putting this into a game?

Re:I'm in the minority here -- did not like Deus E (2, Insightful)

PresidentEnder (849024) | more than 6 years ago | (#21488881)

What really clinched my negative impression is that everything just felt clunky. Combat felt clunky. The skills system felt clunky. The level design and layout was very confusing. When I feel like I have to resort to a cheat guide to get through the game the first time, that feels like bad design. I'm not talking about spoon-feeding the details to the player, I'm talking about providing enough clues so that someone of reasonable intelligence can make their way through the game without undue confusion from poor design choices.
I have to say, my kid brother made it through Deus Ex when he was thirteen and loved it. Now, he's bright, and I'm not saying that you aren't. My sticking point is that you pick intelligence in general rather than perceptiveness or just willingness to pay attention. You said pretty early on that the game felt clunky, and I take from that that you were distracted by your dislike for the game. Everything seemed straightforward to me.
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