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Vista Makes CNET UK's List of "Worst Consumer Tech"

kdawson posted more than 6 years ago | from the in-bad-company dept.

Windows 484

Several anonymous readers pointed us at CNET UK's Crave blog for a list of what is or was, in their opinion, the worst consumer tech in history. Vista comes in at number 10, in company with Apple's puck mouse (number 6) and Sony's CD rootkit (number 9). According to Crave: "[Vista's] incompatibility with hardware, its obsessive requirement of human interaction to clear security dialogue box warnings and its abusive use of hated DRM, not to mention its general pointlessness as an upgrade, are just some examples of why this expensive operating system earns the final place in our terrible tech list." That's gotta hurt a little, coinciding as it does with Apple's Don't Give Up On Vista attack ad.

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484 comments

Whew! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486181)

It's a good thing there are a shitload of great products that come out of the UK.

Interesting that this article came up.... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486199)

I was just thinking about this [google.com] the other day.

MOD PARENT UP (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486245)

Certainly very interesting search results.

Re:Interesting that this article came up.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486273)

You miserable jerk. I had successfully never actually seen that picture for many years.

MOD PARENT TROLL!! (goatse) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486599)

Sheesh, and I was at work! :-S

Other news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486237)

Bang your head. Slashdot, Kevin DuBrow is dead.

Vista is #10? (5, Funny)

downix (84795) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486263)

Come on Microsoft. Vista is #10 on the index. You need to try harder, that #1 slot can be yours within an SP or two!

Re:Vista is #10? (1, Informative)

dhavleak (912889) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486439)

From TFA: "its abusive use of hated DRM"

I'm tired of this myth. I've been using Vista for a while now, and I've never encountered any 'abusive DRM' that prevented my from doing anything I could already do in XP.

I suggest people read this before beleiving the people blindly yelling 'Vista DRM Sux':
Everything you've read about Vista DRM is wrong (Part 1) [zdnet.com]
Everything you've read about Vista DRM is wrong (Part 2) [zdnet.com]
Everything you've read about Vista DRM is wrong (Part 3) [zdnet.com]

Re:Vista is #10? (5, Informative)

MarsDefenseMinister (738128) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486513)

I have movies which I ripped myself from DVD's I own. They are in .avi format. I can play them everywhere, on Linux, on Mac, on Windows 2000, Windows XP.

Windows Vista says there's a byte error in the file and refuses to play the movie. This is Windows Media Player, same version as the version on XP.

Vista DRM is a little over-zealous. Or maybe Vista itself just is incapable of playing movies.

Re:Vista is #10? (2, Funny)

dhavleak (912889) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486595)

Windows Vista says there's a byte error in the file and refuses to play the movie. This is Windows Media Player, same version as the version on XP
A bug isn't the same thing as 'abusive DRM'. Have you tried contacting MS about this? I'd also suggest doing an MD5 hash to check for data corruption.

I know as soon as I say 'there nothing I can't do on Vista that I can on XP' there will be legions of anecdotal 'I can't do this, that and the other' responses. It doesn't change the fact that the DRM stuff is a myth.

Re:Vista is #10? (2, Interesting)

gordgekko (574109) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486571)

At the risk of eventually being declared an astroturfer as you will undoubtedly be, I share the exact same experience that you do when it comes to Vista and my media. The operating system hasn't done one thing at all to get in my way of using legitimate or shadier media.

And while I'm digging myself a hole here on /. let me hand you a shovel as well and tell you that I like Vista. It's probably the best operating system Microsoft has ever released, though given some of their earlier efforts that's hardly unqualified praise, and surpasses OS X in several aspects (though it trails in others).

Re:Vista is #10? (1)

Le T800 (1137303) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486669)

Pardon my ignorance but what's an astrosurfer ? Thanks by advance.

Re:Vista is #10? (1)

Four_One_Nine (997288) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486745)

I'm not sure WHAT Astrosurfing is. AstroTurfing, however, is quite common.

Now if there were only some sort of database that would allow me to search the Internet for the definition of a term...

Don't worry, i won't flame you :) (1)

Spy der Mann (805235) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486703)

I don't consider myself a Linux fanboi, so I won't throw balls of tar covered in flames at you. Instead, I'll tell you why I won't install Vista on my machine.

1. I've had troubles reading DVD's from other regions... in XP. "You can only change your DVD region code only 4 more times". If things go as I've read, Vista won't be any better.Perhaps you don't have trouble because all your DVDs are Region 1, but that's not the case with the rest of the world.

2. Have you actually tried to *back up* your DVDs? (because that's where you'll most probably find any problem - not that I've actually tried, btw)

3. Remember the recent Vista blackout regarding product activation and genuine advantage?

4. The point with Vista is not whether it ACTUALLY prevents you from watching DVD's. The point is that it can in the future, and that you won't be able to do ANYTHING about it. Vista is taking all the decisions for you, and where you'd like to be asked "Cancel, or Allow?" regarding updates-from and reports-to Microsoft, you won't be. If Redmond decides to install a rootkit on your vista, you won't even notice!

Re:Don't worry, i won't flame you :) (4, Insightful)

gordgekko (574109) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486759)

> 4. The point with Vista is not whether it ACTUALLY prevents you from watching DVD's. The point is that it can in the future, and that you won't be able to do ANYTHING about it. Vista is taking all the decisions for you, and where you'd like to be asked "Cancel, or Allow?" regarding updates-from and reports-to Microsoft, you won't be. If Redmond decides to install a rootkit on your vista, you won't even notice!

No offence, but this exact same statement (well, statements) can be made about Apple as well. What's preventing them from injecting new DRM into OS X in a future update? Because Jobs wears turtlenecks? The only operating system I trust in that respect is Linux and its variants so I guess I'm agreeing with you in that respect. I'll tell you what -- and I am a man of my word and owner of Gutsy Gibbon on DVD -- if Vista ever screws with me when it comes to backing up or playing my digital media, I join the FOSS army faster than you can say Monkey Boy.

Re:Vista is #10? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486601)

It is not a "myth". It depends on what you are trying to do. For general purpose PC use, Vista is no more restrictive than XP. For multimedia, home theater it can get ugly.

Video gets downgraded to crap if you don't have crappy DRM through the whole path. I tried recording some shows and and get sorry Charlie messages. I tried to burn the shows that I could record to DVD and get sorry Charlie messages.

Sorry, I don't want a computer telling what I can and cannot do. I switched to Mac and multimedia has been so much better. The only thing from Apple' that I stay away from is TV/Movies from iTunes since I cannot burn them to a DVD to watch.

Re:Vista is #10? (5, Insightful)

GIL_Dude (850471) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486631)

As someone who Beta tested the OS and who has it on 3 work machines and a couple of home machines (except for one box that dual boots Ubuntu and XP) I can almost agree with you. However, if you try to capture audio as it is playing you will find it has more DRM than XP. Using freeware like Audigy on XP you could (depending on your sound card) capture what was being played. Some cards called it "what u hear" others "wave out mix" - but generally you could grab it.

With Vista, you can no longer do that. It does stop me from ripping that 2 second sound byte from DVD that I sometimes want for my own use. In fact, that's the only reason the XP box still exists; it would be just Ubuntu if not for that one thing. So, to be fair - there is more DRM in Vista than in WinXP. It hasn't hurt much yet for me - but it has been a small pain. I think what we need hear is more honest talk from folks who have tried it and seen what sucks and what doesn't and a little less vitriol from some folks anyway who haven't even tried it.

Re:Vista is #10? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486771)

There [i]are[/i] much better ways to capture an audio stream from a DVD, on Linux or any other operating system. One, for example, that doesn't depend on your current volume settings. It's not even that hard. But meh, whatever works for you.

Re:Vista is #10? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486645)

Can I ask what you need Vista's DRM installed by default? Is it something you utilize on a daily basis? If not, it's more unnecessary bloat that benefits no one except the media conglomerates.

Everything I know about DRM (Vista or otherwise) is not wrong (Part 1) but thanks.

Re:Vista is #10? (0, Troll)

Shadow-Copy (1194657) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486621)

LOL... Vista from Microsoft is the best OS they have ever compiled, I HAVE GOTTEN A VIRUS FROM CNET/download.com.. Besides, a mass consumer online corporations like download.crap only hate Vista because of its new security features and how it blocks out all the virus trends.. or spyware, and addware tactics that Cnet/Download.com takes in Loading a system more then with the third party software/patch the user downloads from cnet... Cnet is a joke.. they attach malicious threads to they're junk-ware.. cnet has gone beyond cookie observation.. they install paths an trash in when you download a program.. they attach runtimes to each installer.. for "learning" purposes you should read theyre online policy... they will allow you to use the software they supply but if it installs something bad... OOH WELL! lol cnet is a joke.

creators big flash planet/population rescue review (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486267)

no gadgets, or payper liesense .contracts required. that puts it ahead of the curve from the getgo. plus, you'll be able to live with the results, & everybody else, in peace & harmony, caring for/about one another. sounds like a dream? no, it's just time to get real.

meanwhile if you're not too busy, take a chance & look up at the sky from time to time. also, take the extra effort to look into the eyes of people as you pass by them during the day. you can pretend that everything's in order, but you'll miss the actual content of your effort. the lights are coming up all over now. pay attention. it's cost effective, & could lead to yOUR participation in the better days ahead. try considering whois the 'main competitor' of all that is wrong/fatal.

never mind attempting to second guess/deny the creators, consider more the blood, guts & dead people, as well as innocent children being starved/blown to pieces. takes some of the excitement of the techno babble out of it. yOUR 'mainstream' media has failed us whoreabully (futile attempts at mass hypenosys) in this aspect.

don't forget to get a little more oxygen on yOUR brain, so you'll be alert when witnessing the big flash.

there's lots to be done. the planet/population remains in crisis mode.

we're intending (do not underestimate intentions) for the philistine nazi execrable to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather', as well as a # of other things.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying [google.com] [google.com] [google.com]

micro management of populations/anything has never worked (for very long). it's an illness. tie that with life0cidal aggression & gangster style bullying, & what do we have? a greed/fear/ego based recipe for disaster/death.

the creators will prevail. as it has always been.

corepirate nazi execrable costs outweigh benefits
(Score:-)mynuts won, the king is a fink)
by ourselves on everyday 24/7

as there are no benefits, just more&more death/debt & disruption.

fortunately there's an 'army' of 'angels'(light bringers, for those who are afraid of/confused by heavenly stuff), coming yOUR way

do not be dismayed, it is the way it was meant to be.

the little ones/innocents must/will be protected.

after the big flash, ALL of yOUR imaginary 'borders' may blur a bit?

for each of the creators' innocents harmed (in any way), there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/us, as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile, will not be available after the big flash occurs.

beware the illusionary smoke&mirrors.con

all is not lost or forgotten.

no need to fret (unless you're associated/joined at the hype with, unprecedented evile), it's all just a part of the creators' wwwildly popular, newclear powered, planet/population rescue initiative/mandate.

or, it could be (literally) ground hog (as in dead meat) day, again? many of US are obviously not interested in how we appear (which is whoreabull) from the other side of the 'lens', or even from across the oceans.

vote with (what's left in) yOUR wallet. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious corepirate nazi glowbull warmongering execrable.

we still haven't read (here) about the 2/3'rds of you kids who are investigating/pursuing a spiritual/conscience/concious re-awakening, in amongst the 'stuff that matters'? another big surprise?

some of US should consider ourselves very fortunate to be among those scheduled to survive after the big flash/implementation of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate.

it's right in the manual, 'world without end', etc....

as we all ?know?, change is inevitable, & denying/ignoring gravity, logic, morality, etc..., is only possible, on a temporary basis.

concern about the course of events that will occur should the life0cidal execrable fail to be intervened upon is in order.

'do not be dismayed' (also from the manual). however, it's ok/recommended, to not attempt to live under/accept, fauxking nazi felon greed/fear/ego based pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking hypenosys.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators. providing more than enough of everything for everyone (without any distracting/spiritdead personal gain motives), whilst badtolling unprecedented evile, using an unlimited supply of newclear power, since/until forever. see you there?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Explain something to me . . . (5, Insightful)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486289)

Apple's puck mouse was #6. Vista was #10 and Sony's rootkit was #9. I admit that the mouse was more form than function. But it didn't really cause harm unlike like Sony's rootkit and isn't the fiasco that is Vista. So why is it higher? Also if users didn't like the mouse, they could replace it with a $20 model from a store. Many people I know don't use the mouse that came with the computer. You can't easily replace Vista or get rid of the rootkit.

Re:Explain something to me . . . (1, Insightful)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486343)

You can't easily replace Vista

really? my 16 year old daughter did it this evening on her new laptop. I handed her a copy of XP and gave her some very basic instructions.

Replacing vista or any OS is actually quite easy when you are not afraid of it. Unfortunately 90% of the community is deathly afraid of it because of their lack of basic computer education.

Re:Explain something to me . . . (1)

IKnwThePiecesFt (693955) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486415)

Unless you have hardware which does not have driver support within XP, which is quite common these days.

Re:Explain something to me . . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486673)

I have yet to find ANY hardware that has vista only drivers.

got any other FUD? Or does the Microsoft Slashdot trolling manual not cover that?

Re:Explain something to me . . . (1)

Dolphinzilla (199489) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486775)

Unless you recently purchased a Sony VAIO VGN-650N - a beautiful carbon fiber laptop - until a few weeks ago, Sony yielding under consumer pressure posted drivers for XP - up till then I had successfully found drivers (or somehow adapted a like driver) except for the following:

1. The Dialup modem
2. The built in camera
3. The backlight dimmer (very important for power consumption)

additionally several things were just hosed - like the fact that inserting headphones did not disable the laptop built in speakers - a fact that I discovered after subjecting everyone in first class on Delta flight to the Chronicles of Riddik

all these things are working now BUT until a few weeks ago they only worked under Vista

So I disagree with your statement

Re:Explain something to me . . . (1)

dmomo (256005) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486681)

Good to know you had an extra license for that copy of XP. ;)

What if you don't have a legitimate copy of XP? What if you only have the laptop and the restore (Vista only) CD?

Easy from a 'task' point of view. Not necessarily easy on the wallet or on the hardware.

Re:Explain something to me . . . (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486691)

What I meant by easily replaceable is this: A mouse is a peripheral. It can be disconnected and replaced with another. With OS X, you can do it without even rebooting. It may cost you $20 to get another mouse. Replacing Vista with XP requires that you have XP which retails for $79 and may take an hour or more to install. If you had an old copy of XP lying around that's great but WGA might have issues with you if you installed that copy in another machine.

You have obviously never used one (4, Interesting)

Bryansix (761547) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486349)

I have had the displeasure of using one of these things and they are right about not knowing which way is up. Because it is circular there is no way to control how the thing is rotated so it frequently would become the case that moving the mouse (if you could call it that) left would move the cursor up on the screen. It seriously made me hate MAC computers just based on the "PUCK" and it made me contemplate putting out a hit on whomever designed this useless piece of shit. Yes, you could replace it but most Universities with MACS did not replace them.

Re:You have obviously never used one (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486629)

Okay, I didn't like the puck for a lot of good reasons, but I've never heard anyone complain that they didn't know which way the mouse was pointing. That's a new one.

Seriously, if you can't master a round mouse with a cord coming out of the top side, you probably have a lot more to complain about than a stupid mouse in the first place--because god seems to have made you to be useless in (undoubtedly) almost every other conceivable way.

Re:Explain something to me . . . (0, Flamebait)

kernelphr34k (1179539) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486371)

I was pondering the same thing. What about MS's XBOX 360? That thing turned out to be a huge POS with so many issues. How many do you have to return to get a 'working' product. 3? 5? 10 times?

Re:Explain something to me . . . (1)

Bryansix (761547) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486433)

I'm on my third 360 but besides it breaking all the time I would not call it a POS. It's actually quite great. And this is coming from somebody who hate Microsoft as much as the next guy. With the 360 something just strikes the right balance of great game titles and a nice and responsive dashboard with downloadable content.

Re:Explain something to me . . . (3, Insightful)

badasscat (563442) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486717)

I'm on my third 360 but besides it breaking all the time I would not call it a POS. It's actually quite great.

If you bought any other product that required two replacements for defective hardware, I guarantee you would not be saying that. Try this: replace the "360" in the first sentence above with any one of the following: "Camry", "47 inch plasma television", "lawnmower", "food processor". See? It sounds ridiculous.

Why do people have this double-standard about the Xbox 360? If it's broken on you twice, it is a piece of junk. Apply the same standard of quality to it as you do to anything else.

btw, I was amused to see the 360 at my local Gamestop displaying the RROD on my trip there this past weekend.

Re:Explain something to me . . . (3, Informative)

bennomatic (691188) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486727)

I can't tell if you're joking here. I don't think anyone would dispute that the XBox 360 does all sorts of cool things, but I think what the parent poster was referring to was not the thing's capabilities, but rather the fact that it breaks down all the time. That's what most people don't like about it.

I don't think anyone has ever complained about the gaming experience, or how HD DVDs look on the XBox 360, but a lot of people have complained that it's not reliable, and a gaming system that can't game is, in most people's minds, a POS, or something equivalent.

Out of curiosity, how often does yours break? I know someone who went through three in a matter of six months. He ended up buying another one to ensure that he had a spare around when one needed to be sent in for warantee work...

Re:Explain something to me . . . (4, Funny)

NetDanzr (619387) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486375)

I admit that the mouse was more form than function. But it didn't really cause harm unlike like Sony's rootkit and isn't the fiasco that is Vista.

Vista and the Sony rootkit can cause onsets of rage or heart attacks in few cases, but that mouse was an ergonomic disaster. Using it for a few hours cramped your fingers so much that many male Apple users ended up lonely at night, without their hand being able to perform its marital duties.

Re:Explain something to me . . . (1)

jpfed (1095443) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486683)

When I programmed for some psych labs at UW, they were running an experiment on Macs where participants indicated their responses by pushing a lever forward until it hit a stop. Now, every once in a while, this caused the program that drove the experiment to behave in strange ways.

We eventually determined that every once in a while, a participant would hit the lever's stop hard enough that the vibrations would propagate through the table and cause the puck mouse to click itself. This could happen because the button (i.e. the entire top half of the mouse) was massive enough that when the bottom portion was driven upward by the table vibration, the top moved less, and the halves' relative motion could click the mouse. This would never have happened with a normal mouse, because in a normal mouse, the buttons have low enough mass that if the bottom of the mouse moved upward, the buttons would just move right with it.

I'm not saying that this is something that anyone else in the world had to deal with. But damn did I hate those mice after learning how much data they'd cost the lab.

Re:Explain something to me . . . (4, Informative)

moosesocks (264553) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486749)

Apple's puck mouse was #6. Vista was #10 and Sony's rootkit was #9. I admit that the mouse was more form than function. But it didn't really cause harm unlike like Sony's rootkit and isn't the fiasco that is Vista. So why is it higher?


If you RTFA, you'll notice that the ordering of the items in the list seems arbitrary, and that the authors don't really refer to any sort of ranking within the list.

And yeah.... the puck mouse did suck, but it also wasn't horribly difficult to go out to buy a new mouse if you hated the thing. It was the first apple peripheral, after all, to use a universally standard interface. (Apple really led the pack with USB and Firewire. The PS/2 interface *still* shows up on many PCs! It's a bit sad, however, to see FireWire slowly dying out, as it was undoubtedly the technically superior interface for data transfers)

Think different? (4, Interesting)

garcia (6573) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486303)

That's gotta hurt a little, coinciding as it does with Apple's Don't Give Up On Vista attack ad.

I wish they would go back to the ads showing how sexy the technology they offer is (like the PC with a mess of wires in the back compared to the iMac with nothing but the keyboard and mouse or the continuing awesome iPod ads with catchy tunes from bands with moderate success prior to the release of the video) instead of those crappy "attack" ads. Hell, go back to the old ads with the geek chic that was ever so popular here on Slashdot even.

Just enough talking about Vista and Windows -- they're starting to sound like politicians. In fact, they've been picking up other bad habits. My wife and I went into the Apple store at the Mall of America and while I was gawking and drooling over those huge displays, two of their employees launched a Best Buy style sales attack on her. She actually said, "you know, we used to enjoy entering this store and you're now very much like Best Buy, you might want to rethink that." The sales people actually left her alone after one replied, "sorry, I will bring that forward." Who knows if they did or not.

Think different, again, please!

Re:Think different? (-1, Flamebait)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486367)

Drooling over hardware like an idiot.. you already own a Mac don't you?

What's scary is that supposedly normal, non-geek people, are now drooling over hardware. They're the same idiots who buy a 4wd to pick the kids up from soccer practice.

Re:Think different? (2, Insightful)

garcia (6573) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486427)

Drooling over hardware like an idiot.. you already own a Mac don't you?

Yeah, and I really can't say I like my Mac. I do, however, love those huge displays that I don't see demoed in any other store like they are in the Apple store. If drooling over hardware like those displays makes me an idiot, I guess I'll deal with it but for you to assume that it was because I was just drooling over it w/o any practical use for it then you're sorely mistaken.

Re:Think different? (1)

heinousjay (683506) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486435)

It's a universal maxim, any parallel drawn to automobiles has to fail wildly. Of course, it's easy to miss the failure when you're busy steaming over the fact that your opinion isn't forcefully applied to everyone.

Re:Think different? (1)

ad0gg (594412) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486549)

Its funny how apple bashes on vista. Yet microsoft managed to sell 88 million copies [pcworld.com] of vista.

With microsft posting double digit increases [news.com] in Q4 revenue from client(vista) and business(office) divisions compared to last year, I guess microsoft failed at failing.

Re:Think different? (1)

cstdenis (1118589) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486585)

When you can't buy a new computer from most manufacturers its not hard to sell a lot.

I'd be much more interested to see the number of installed copies and the number of retail sales rather OEM sales.

Re:Think different? (1)

mdwh2 (535323) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486587)

I wish they would go back to the ads showing how sexy the technology they offer is (like the PC with a mess of wires in the back compared to the iMac with nothing but the keyboard and mouse

It runs on batteries??

Re:Think different? (4, Funny)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486643)

Macs are powered by a combination of the Jobs Reality Distortion Field and the smugness of their users.

as much as I dislike Vista (4, Insightful)

jtroutman (121577) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486305)

and its onerous security notifications, adherence to DRM and general pointlessness, I don't think that "incompatibility with hardware" is really a valid statement. It runs on modern hardware from a wide variety of vendors. If you want to see an operating system with stringent hardware requirements, you need look no further than OSX. At least I can show people how to run the OS on my own hardware without the software's manufacturer coming after me [hardmac.com] and threatening legal action if I don't stop.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (1)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486361)

That said, OSX at least supports the hardware it's shipped with...
I've seen systems shipped with vista that had unsupported or broken components.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (0, Redundant)

Osty (16825) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486425)

I've seen systems shipped with vista that had unsupported or broken components.

And how is that Microsoft's fault? There were plenty of broken systems like that when XP first shipped, and when Win98 first shipped, and Win95, and so on. Perhaps things would be better if Microsoft built their own machines, like Apple, but that's never going to happen.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (1)

netsavior (627338) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486503)

Perhaps things would be better if Microsoft built their own machines, like Apple, but that's never going to happen. I love that you have a Xbox360 link in your Sig :D

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (1)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486519)

Actually, Microsoft used to make their own line of workstations, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_(computer) [wikipedia.org]

And your sig mentions the xbox, is that not a case of microsoft building their own machines? They are diversifying into many different areas, who's to say they won't start making workstations again? Especially with the rising marketshare of apple, and the fact many people like the close integration between hardware and software.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (3, Insightful)

Osty (16825) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486373)

and its onerous security notifications, adherence to DRM and general pointlessness, I don't think that "incompatibility with hardware" is really a valid statement.

I'm not even sure "onerous security notifications" and "adherence to DRM" are valid statements. If you're seeing a bunch of UAC prompts, either you're running some really crap apps that don't understand how to work in a multi-user environment, you're doing a lot of admin work (in which case you may as well just turn off UAC), or you're doing something very, very wrong. In an average week of work + home computing, I see maybe two or three UAC prompts the entire time, and I'm running with UAC on.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "adherence to DRM", but I assume you're referring to the old, debunked rumor from several years prior to Vista's release that claimed all audio and video would be degraded if you weren't using DRMed content and/or locked down hardware. That's been proven false many times over. Obviously Vista has to follow certain rules in order to play HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray content, but that's the fault of the MPAA, not Microsoft. Either you implement the secure pipeline and require hardware to match (HDMI-everything), or you don't get to play that content at full resolution. The same applies to any OS, not just Vista.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (4, Insightful)

jtroutman (121577) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486531)

In an average week of work + home computing, I see maybe two or three UAC prompts the entire time, and I'm running with UAC on.

That's three times more than are necessary.

Obviously Vista has to follow certain rules in order to play HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray content, but that's the fault of the MPAA, not Microsoft. Either you implement the secure pipeline and require hardware to match (HDMI-everything), or you don't get to play that content at full resolution.

And if Microsoft, with 90+ percent of the market, said, "No, if you want to get your movies into our market, you'll get rid of this annoying, overhead causing crap that our consumers hate."

And as for the old, debunked rumor from several years prior to Vista's release you should read this [auckland.ac.nz], last updated earlier this year.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (1)

Osty (16825) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486667)

That's three times more than are necessary.

I neglected to say that those UAC prompts generally resulted from me taking administrative action like poking around in the registry (regedit will prompt UAC), where you would be prompted for credentials in OS X or Linux for similar actions. Definitely not standard user stuff. If I took out the admin-related work, I see less than one UAC prompt per week.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (1)

empaler (130732) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486725)

In an average week of work + home computing, I see maybe two or three UAC prompts the entire time, and I'm running with UAC on.
That's three times more than are necessary.
To be honest, my personal experience with Windows Vista is not one I cherish nor want to repeat, but 3 times a week? I think I do more than that that requires me to authenticate on both Mac OS and Fedora during a week. That is, of course, depending on what you are doing to your computer, but power users tinker, and it's a good thing that tinkering requires authentication if it is exploitable.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (2, Interesting)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486561)

Obviously Vista has to follow certain rules in order to play HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray content, but that's the fault of the MPAA, not Microsoft.

BS. The *AA members need Microsoft more than Microsoft needs them. Imagine the hurt if MS announced that their systems will no longer play anything other than Red Book audio CDs. What's Jane Teenager more likely to do: run out and buy a Mac or just download her albums from now on?

Microsoft happily caved, pure and simple. They give the excuse that "the *AA made us do it!", but that's just a convenient cover story so they don't have to admit that they want DRM (so they can be the next iTunes Music Store). If they truly didn't want DRM, they wouldn't have it and there's not much that anybody would be able to do about it.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (1)

Osty (16825) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486649)

that's just a convenient cover story so they don't have to admit that they want DRM (so they can be the next iTunes Music Store). If they truly didn't want DRM, they wouldn't have it and there's not much that anybody would be able to do about it.

Interestingly enough, Microsoft is trying to be just that (the next iTMS) with Zune [zune.net]. And they even have a number of songs and albums available in a non-DRM mp3 format (all of the Radiohead [zune.net] content on Zune is in the non-DRM mp3 format, for example).

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (4, Informative)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486515)

I don't think that "incompatibility with hardware" is really a valid statement.

True. Many people don't own printers or scanners or sound cards, and so will never notice that half their peripherals are now driverless.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (1)

idiotwithastick (1036612) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486523)

The main problem I see with Vista was that it failed to deliver to the hype. I remember back in '03 or so (when I didn't know very much about computers) reading in Newsweek an interview of Bill Gates about Longhorn, and all the amazing stuff that they were going to put into it. This was 2003, and by 2005, barely any of it was implemented at all--and this was something that was stated in Newsweek, not some "obscure" tech journal. Microsoft was telling average people about the new features in Vista, and they didn't do it. Vista isn't an extremely bad product, but it fails from a marketing standpoint. It didn't meet the hype that Microsoft put out for it, and consumers were disappointed. Most people probably don't know much about the DRM, just like they don't know about the rewritten parts of Vista. However, they will notice if their operating system is slow (not everyone knows how to install RAM) or incompatible with hardware (would they care whether or not it's MS's fault?) or if software is written badly and UAC prompts keep popping up. They just want to use a computer that works.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (1)

pkulak (815640) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486535)

That's a pretty specious argument. Vista doesn't run well on the hardware it is supposed to run on. OS X does. Should we penalize Windows and OS X for both not running on my TI-83?

Re:as much as I dislike Vista (1)

jtroutman (121577) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486611)

Vista doesn't run well on the hardware it is supposed to run on

I'm not sure you understood my argument, I didn't say that Vista ran well on the hardware it supposedly does based on its system requirements. But that if I take off-the-shelf hardware, hardware that Vista will run well on, and show people how to install it and get it running smoothly, no one will bother me. If you do the same with OSX, though, if you run it on anything but the approved hardware (conveniently sold by Apple) and then show others how to do so, their legal team will descend upon you like a swarm of locusts. All I'm saying, in other words, is that the "hardware requirements" for OSX, that being "only hardware sold by Apple", is more stringent.


That being said, I think the "hardware requirements" list for Vista are as unrealistically vague as the ones for OSX are specific. Just following their list doesn't guarantee a working system, but I never claimed it did. That wasn't the point I was making.

Order (1)

SavedLinuXgeeK (769306) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486309)

I don't think there is any specific order with respect to collateral damage. Though it may seem that the order implies (1 being least to 10 being highest) their perspective of the worst products.

Rootkit not as bad as puck mouse? (1, Redundant)

nine-times (778537) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486319)

How can a mouse with a somewhat confusing design be "worse" than someone selling a rootkit that compromises the security of functionality of your computer? Shouldn't crappy design take a back seat to outright sabotage?

Re:Rootkit not as bad as puck mouse? (1)

director_mr (1144369) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486379)

At least the rootkit did what it was designed to do. It wasn't a complete failure for EVERYBODY. That apple mouse design was an absolute miserable failure that seems to have evaded all testing or use by anyone in Apple. I love apple products in general, but that hockey puck was absolutely stupid. Even today apple's mice are not anywhere as near as nice as the cheapest logitech mouse you can buy. Although the little BB ball that scrolls left and right is nice. I still can't figure out why apple is scared of putting left and right buttons on a mouse. Everyone else has figured out how to do it.

Re:Rootkit not as bad as puck mouse? (1)

IKnwThePiecesFt (693955) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486493)

You may not be aware (I wasn't until the other day) but the current mice that come with imacs actually DO have a right and left click. Push down on the left side of the scroll-ball-thingy and it's mouse 1, right side is mouse 2.

Re:Rootkit not as bad as puck mouse? (1)

nine-times (778537) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486589)

I agree that the mouse was poorly designed, but I used one a few times, and it didn't really cause problems. Every once in a while you'd realize it was oriented wrong, but it didn't break anything. As long as you kept it oriented wrong it was fine.

It's certainly not worse than Sony installing a damned *rootkit* on your computer on purpose. You're right, it did what it was designed to do, which was infect your computer with malware and break it. Now honestly, put your anti-Apple sentiments aside, which is worse: a product that is designed to damage your computer and is very effective in doing so, or a product which is designed to help you operate your computer and is effective in doing so but slightly annoying?

The article should have been called (4, Funny)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486325)

Nine old obscure products I can use as an excuse to slam Vista.

Re:The article should have been called (1)

the_humeister (922869) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486389)

Yeah, no kidding. A Squircle? I've never even seen these on this side of the ocean. The only things that most people would know in the USA are Windows Vista, Sony rootkit, Atari Jaguar, Tamagochi, and puck mouse. Although, personally, of those 4 things, I think Sony rootkit is the only one that deserves to be there by itself from 1 through 10.

Why the pro-Apple stance when the mouse was worse? (2, Insightful)

ToastyKen (10169) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486345)

The Apple mouse was ranked 6th while Vista was 10, but the article has a pro-Apple stance. I just wanted to point that out. I mean, I'm a Mac fan, and I know Vista is the more current topic, but still, kinda unfair....

(Yes yes, I know, "You must be new here." :P)

Re:Why the pro-Apple stance when the mouse was wor (1)

aconbere (802137) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486537)

One would assume that it's because the puck mouse was a periphery that was easily replaced and not lauded by Apple. Whereas Vista is Microsoft's flagship product. (not to mention that the puck mouse happened almost a decade ago)

Torture device. (2, Funny)

jo7hs2 (884069) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486353)

That device (puck-mouse) should be listed as a torture device. It hurts your hands, it is counter-inuitive, it clicks sometimes for no reason, and it is the ULTIMATE nightmare in function follows form.

Where's the DRM? (0, Troll)

dedazo (737510) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486431)

The DRM boogeyman rears up again, but other than maybe WGA (which is not even related to media) and a checkbox in Windows Media Player, can anyone tell me again where is all this "hated DRM" in Vista? And where's the media that's supposed to take advantage of all this new DRM that didn't exist in XP? And please don't regurgitate that thoroughly debunked dumb Peter Guttman "paper" where he even admits he doesn't even use Vista.

And seriously, that UAC bullshit FUD is getting old by now. Nothing beats a meme that people repeat just because everyone else is saying it as well. I get a UAC prompt every time I try to do some admin task, which is no different than the root prompt on Linux or OS X. I could turn it off, but why? It's a good reminder that I'm doing something "dangerous" under my default account. The rest of the time I never see it. My nephews run in non-privileged accounts and they never see UAC unless they need to install something, in which case it actually has a password field and they need to call me. If people are bitching because they run under a non-privileged account and they get the damn prompt when they try to restart a service or uninstall a driver then maybe they should consider Linux, where that doesn't happen. Oh wait.

If they're bitching about it because some application is trying to crap all over the hard drive, well, maybe they should run *that* under a privileged account and deal with the prompt once, or just replace the app. Either way, UAC is working as advertised.

Re:Where's the DRM? (3, Informative)

Bryansix (761547) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486485)

UAC is NOT working as advertised. It is so useless that EVERYBODY turns it off! That is everybody who can find the button to turn it off. I've used Vista and within the first five minutes I turned off UAC and this wasn't even MY computer. The whole problem is that there is no ROOT account. You have to explicitly tell an app to run as Root and even then it balks at you. And a shitload of apps didn't work on it and many still don't. How much did Microsoft pay you?

Re:Where's the DRM? (0, Troll)

dedazo (737510) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486541)

The whole problem is that there is no ROOT account.

And this is bad how, again? Please, explain.

You have to explicitly tell an app to run as Root and even then it balks at you.

I thought there was no root account?

and even then it balks at you.

This is Vista's fault how, again?

And a shitload of apps didn't work on it and many still don't.

Well, most of my apps worked fine so I guess I'm sorry yours didn't.

How much did Microsoft pay you?

To argue with random morons on the interwebs? About $4.25 a day, but I'm hoping to get a rise soon.

Re:Where's the DRM? (1)

Njovich (553857) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486773)

I don't really like or dislike Vista, but come on...

UAC is NOT working as advertised. It is so useless that EVERYBODY turns it off! That is everybody who can find the button to turn it off. I've used Vista and within the first five minutes I turned off UAC and this wasn't even MY computer.
That is hyperbole, there are plenty of people that leave it on. Turning it off is easy, however.

The whole problem is that there is no ROOT account. You have to explicitly tell an app to run as Root and even then it balks at you.
This is also common practice among some Linux and BSD variants. In Vista and those systems you can make a root/administrator account. In Vista, with UAC turned on, administrative users are notified when they commit actions that affect other users. Does that really seem that unreasonable as default? Remember, you can turn it off.

There are plenty of examples where software ask you for confirmation by default. Think about sending POST data unencrypted in Firefox. Deleting a file in Konqueror. Installing software in Ubuntu (even requires your password, generally). The general attitude is to be on the safe side.

And a shitload of apps didn't work on it and many still don't.
In general, programs that are written to Microsofts guidelines (of the past 7 years or so) will work fine. Crappy software transfers poorly, everywhere. At this point however, I'd be really surprised if you could name any major software from the last few years that does not work in Vista.

Re:Where's the DRM? (1)

Bigjeff5 (1143585) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486591)

The DRM boogeyman rears up again, but other than maybe WGA (which is not even related to media) and a checkbox in Windows Media Player, can anyone tell me again where is all this "hated DRM" in Vista? And where's the media that's supposed to take advantage of all this new DRM that didn't exist in XP? And please don't regurgitate that thoroughly debunked dumb Peter Guttman "paper" where he even admits he doesn't even use Vista.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=DRM+in+vista [google.com]Give any of these a read

Vista's implimentation of DRM forces video card manufacturers to jump through idiotic hoops in order to play high def content of any kind, as well as not allowing full HD resolutions even when it does let you play the media.

This is not a Windows Media Player issue either, this is a Vista driver issue and is forced by Microsoft upon video card manufacturers.

For those who didn't RTFA (0, Redundant)

wanderingknight (1103573) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486445)

Vista is actually #1. The summary sucks.

Re:For those who didn't RTFA (1)

shihonage (731699) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486525)

Vista is #10. Go RTFA. Again.

Re:For those who didn't RTFA (1)

wanderingknight (1103573) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486625)

Any reason why it is at the end of the damn article, then? Normally you present a 'top ten' from the bottom to the top.

Read the ENTIRE article. Starting at page one.

Gates gambles on Longhorn (3, Informative)

suburbanmediocrity (810207) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486483)

I seem to recall reading a number of articles a few years ago where Gates and Balmer said that they were "betting the company" on the upcoming release of Windows. I wonder how this is working out for them.

Re: Gates gambles on Longhorn (1)

gordgekko (574109) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486671)

Fantastic [news.com]. Only real weakness when it comes to Vista is that consumer adoption is outpacing corporate adoption. Don't you keep up with the news or do you just post on /. and hope no one responds with facts to your assertions?

That's strange.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486495)

They were clearly forgetting about Linux when they made this list.

The worst thing about #6 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486497)

At least vista doesn't make you gay.... unlike the Puck mouse did me.

Virtualization is how Linux will win. (2, Interesting)

headkase (533448) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486505)

I've run Linux as my only OS for a whole year once, but now I'm back to XP simply because I like to play my games. I see no compelling reason to upgrade to Vista - I don't have DX10 hardware and WindowBlinds makes XP look almost as nice. Right now I run Linux in VMWare and I really hope someday that I can switch to Linux fully as my booted OS and run my Windows games in VMWare or equivalent! Games are the *only* reason I still use Windows, Linux is much more fun to tweak for a person like me!

Faint damning is almost praise. (2, Insightful)

Futurepower(R) (558542) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486545)

"Vista... general pointlessness as an upgrade..."

Praising Microsoft products again, I see.

Microsoft has once again released a product before it was finished. That has wasted the time of many, many educated people, dragging down their quality of life and their productiveness.

That is NOT "pointlessness". That is abuse.

The Crave "article" is embarassing (4, Insightful)

Infonaut (96956) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486603)

The abundance of "lists as articles" makes me want to vomit, but this one takes the cake. They just randomly put down ten tech mistakes in an ad-baiting format (click here to see the next on the list - we won't tell you what it is, but if you click here, we'll get more ad revenue!). What's the time period? What are the criteria for selection?

The writers just pulled nonsense out of their asses, and somehow that passes as valuable information. In this so-called Information Age, one would think better writing would rise to the top. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case. We get crap, but at least we get it instantly!

Windows, OS X, and Linux user (4, Insightful)

Master Switch (15115) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486619)

I spend much of my time using Windows (2K pro, 2003, XP, and Vista) and OS X , and a little on Linux. I consider myself experienced with both OS X and Windows. I much prefer OS X but I can say there is also some things I like about Vista. I have not had any speed issues and only a few software compatibility issues. I appreciate the structural improvements made in such areas as the management console, event logger, command line utilities, and kernel structures. Vista isn't the upgrade it should have been but it is not horrible. Microsoft is on the right track with UAC, and with some fine tuning it will be worth the trouble. The display subsystem is moving in the same direction that NeXT aka OS X took 15 or so years ago (think display post script in NeXT, now display PDF in OS X). It's taken Microsoft far too long to catch up but I do think they are on the right track. Remember the resistance XP met with when it first arrived. Now it's well received. I think Vista will eventually achieve this status a few years down the road.

How quickly we forget... (3, Interesting)

HerculesMO (693085) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486637)

I'm running Vista now (it's free from work, so I decided to install Business edition), and I have no real issues with it. It's a memory hog and whatever else, but I just have to laugh and say, "how quickly we forget".

Almost all of these complaints were exactly the same when XP was released. Memory, drivers, utility, etc... Vista runs all my games (which is why I have it) without a hitch, even the old DOSBoxed ones. I know we will have Mac fanboys up and down the aisles here so my probability of being modded down is higher, but so much software written for OS9 doesn't work on OSX any more at all. At least I can say that four OS versions later (95, 98, 2000, XP) and software CONTINUES to work (maybe not all of it) well... that's not too terrible either. I'm not saying Vista is "the shit" either -- I much prefer my Macbook for the OS use, but when I want to play my games, old and new... I can run them on Vista without a hitch.

I'll wait for SP1 to see how well Vista fares in the future, but as it stands right now, I haven't had a BSOD or a crash in over a month, and my games play fast and furious, though I do lose a few frames per second since the drivers just aren't as good for Vista yet.

I'll be patient, and remember my history.

Re:How quickly we forget... (3, Informative)

Techman83 (949264) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486709)

"I'll be patient, and remember my history." And so will I, Millennium Edition anybody? *shudders*

Re:How quickly we forget... (1)

corsec67 (627446) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486751)

One thing:
Along with the change from OS 9 to OSX, Apple has also changed from POWER to IA32, which is a completely different architecture.

How well do apps for Win 95 work on an AMD64 Vista computer? What about hardware drivers? Backwards compatability is cake if you are still using the same ISA, or a compatable ISA, see PS3:PS2 as compared to Xbox:Xbox 360.

Meh (1)

FoolsGold (1139759) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486695)

I'm using Vista, no big deal for me. But then again, I make up my own mind and only read stuff like this (and hence the majority of kdawson's postings) for a laugh.

Of course there are problems, plenty of bad design issues. But then again, there are in Linux too. No operating system is the holy grail, and I prefer the software selection in Windows.

Re:Meh (0, Troll)

SEMW (967629) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486767)

I'm using Vista, no big deal for me. ... I make up my own mind ... No operating system is the holy grail ...
Woah -- Broad neutrality? Cultural liberalism? Acknowledgement of individual preference? You do know none of that's tolerated at Slashdot, right?

Don't worry, we'll have you converted to an irrational, frothing-at-the-mouth, katana-wielding *nix advocating Slashbot given time.

uac = ! evil (2, Informative)

Skuld-Chan (302449) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486755)

I don't see what the big deal is about UAC - especially as the Mac does the same thing. Any time you need to run an app that requests administrative rights - the UAC prompt pops up. All its doing is asking you if you really requested this elevation. You can change it so that it asks you for the admin password, but this isn't default behavior.

My friend who is a Mac die hard tells me - but you need to fiddle with the UAC prompt when setting the clock! Well? Guess what - you do on the Mac as well. Same with installing most apps, setting a good chunk of settings as well.

Also on the Mac if you try to copy a file into a directory you don't have permission to - it prompts for elevation - same as Vista.

I think most people are pissed off because it doesn't work like XP which let you have free run of the machine, but then the slashdot crowd bemoans the fact that XP is insecure. Microsoft fixes that - and now Vista is crap - I don't get it.

Fact is - I play games on my Vista box, browse the net, and watch "pirated" videos on it - and gasp - it works quite well. My TV tuner work, my scanner works, both my printers work, my video card works, everything works - and this is even the x64 version. I rarely ever have to deal with UAC unless I'm installing something.

The Puck beats the rootkit? (2, Informative)

Quiet_Desperation (858215) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486757)

At least you can swap in another mouse in a few seconds. OS X has supported two buttons from the beginning which is why those that still complain about one button get pushed around and dirt put in their hair.

How should it be handled then? (1)

Jackmn (895532) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486763)

its obsessive requirement of human interaction to clear security dialogue box warnings
How should an operating system handle an application that requires elevated privileges? If applications just bailed out after attempting to accomplish something they don't have the proper privileges for, I'm sure nontechnical users would be far more unhappy than they currently are.

A laptop I recently purchased came with Vista preinstalled, and I've been using it fairly regularly for these last few months. Personally I only see UAC prompts when I am configuring settings that should require administrative access, or when I run poorly written applications.
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