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Apple 10.4.11 Update Can Brick Macs With Boot Camp

kdawson posted more than 6 years ago | from the doesn't-take-a-genius dept.

OS X 425

g-san writes "Some Mac users are having problems with the latest 10.4.11 update, yours truly included. The problem seems to be caused by the presence of a Boot Camp partition and renders the Mac unable to reboot after the update fails. Note the Geniuses at the Apple stores are recommending a full disk wipe; but data can be recovered via Firewire." MacNN has a note up that if you fall victim to this "known issue" and need to reformat the disk, you can't reinstall Boot Camp because it is no longer available to OS X 10.4 Tiger users.

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Macs (5, Funny)

Tumbleweed (3706) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486927)

"They just _work_."

Re:Macs (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21487011)

Gasp! Something makes them unable to run... WINDOWS!!!

MS has the same thing. It's called "VISTA"

Re:Macs (0, Redundant)

Creepy Crawler (680178) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487053)

You forgot the joke...

"They just _work_."

Your mom?
Your pocketbook?
. . . NOT!!! (like borat)
like an elephant?

So, whats the joke?

Re:Macs (5, Insightful)

CoreDump01 (558675) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487161)

If you can get it to work again via routine tasks (like reinstalling the OS on HDD) it is technically not a brick. A "bricked" Mac would almost always require you to send in the machine to the manufacturer to unbrick.

Re:Macs (5, Insightful)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487341)

Yeah if you're running a beta boot loader that you've hacked to prevent it from expiring (or intentionally set your system clock to a couple months ago) and you install an OS system update on it without waiting to see how it works on other people's hacked machines, then your system may not boot until you fix it. Why is the OS relevant in this case again?

ummm so don't install it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486937)

If your hardware is to old to update, don't bother.

Re:ummm so don't install it. (1)

lexarius (560925) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487325)

Umm, any Mac that has Boot Camp on it is an Intel Mac, and is therefore fairly new.

Apple (0, Troll)

proudfoot (1096177) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486961)

This seems like a rather glaring oversight. The only reason that something available previously being available only for newer versions of a product is to force someone to upgrade.

Re:Apple (2, Insightful)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487061)

This seems like a rather glaring oversight. The only reason that something available previously being available only for newer versions of a product is to force someone to upgrade.

Previously only a beta version was available. When they released the final version it was included with 10.5. It would be nice if they kept the beta that worked on 10.4 available, but it is beta software and it is understandable if they don't want to deal with the support headaches. If they were shipping a real version for 10.4, then they'd have to test every new patch to OS X and see if it worked with bootcamp (which admittedly would have been nice).

Hack to keep bootcamp working in 10.4 (0)

flumpmaster (746057) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487261)

If you want to keep boot camp working in 10.4 then change the date in system preferences to before the expiration date (uncheck "update date and time automatically"). Not elegant, but cheaper than the $129 to upgrade to 10.5. W.R.T the article: The machine was not bricked - and the user is back up and running again. Recovery involved starting the machine in firewire target disk mode and transferring the data to an external hard drive using another mac. What is surprising is that the Apple store did not suggest this solution (which is a fairly well known trick if a Mac will not boot).

Re:Hack to keep bootcamp working in 10.4 (1)

thegrassyknowl (762218) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487333)

How would this work with file vault? I have all of my data in file vaults. I know it's just a disk file at the end of the day but can you simply back up the file to another machine, reinstall and copy the file back and be up and running again?

Re:Apple (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21487123)

Or maybe people in Cupertino just don't happen to run Microsoft Windows all day.

Do any of the 3rd party disk tools fix this with. (1)

Joe The Dragon (967727) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486963)

Do any of the 3rd party disk tools fix this without havering to reload the os.

Re:Do any of the 3rd party disk tools fix this wit (1)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487313)

Probably. According to anecdotes from people with this problem on the forums, using the included archive re-install option on the install disk fixes it without having to wipe any data or preferences.. although it does reload the OS itself.

Yeah (5, Insightful)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486965)

We have four or five people in a thread and it's news? Please. In addition, this is NOT A BRICKING. Bricking means it's completely inoperable. If you can reinstall, it's not bricked. Period. I also find it hard to believe that you can't archive & install if something goes wrong, or at least do the plain old install.

Re:Yeah (1, Insightful)

TeraCo (410407) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486993)

Sir, you have Mac in your username. Your credibility was shot the moment you walked into the thread. A service pack rendering a PC non-operation is a big deal regardless of how you try to portray it.

Re:Yeah (1, Insightful)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487021)

Oh, yeah, there's an intelligent comment. "You're name has Mac in it, so you can't comment on this!" And you're an asshole, so you shouldn't be commenting either. Isn't it fun to throw these stupid statements around?

And it's not non-operational because you can reinstall and still continue to use it, albeit with some hassle. That is not bricked. What part of that is so difficult to grasp?

Re:Yeah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21487125)

An operational computer requires an operational operating system, or it's just hardware. The user must format and reinstall their operating system to return the machine to operational, potentially losing data in process unless they can remotely connect to the hard drive to get the data off first. But hey, the machine is just fine!

Re:Yeah (2, Informative)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487209)

I never said it wasn't a pain or that there couldn't be data loss. I said the term "brick" was used improperly because bricking implies that it's completely ruined. But hey, try to argue nonexistent semantics, AC.

Re:Yeah (4, Insightful)

Propaganda13 (312548) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487077)

He is correct about it not being bricking though. As far as warnings go, it wouldn't have done any good. All updates would come with a warning that your data should be backed up and while the update was tested, it still could have unforeseen consequences. It would be like EULAs, just click because you have to. The situation though does point out that updating just because isn't always a good idea.

Re:Yeah (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21487101)

Describing a (temporarily) non-booting machine as "bricked" is like calling an unconscious person "dead".

I'm assuming that you are just "unconscious" from the neck up.

credibility (1)

Gary W. Longsine (124661) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487121)

Ahem. Their credibility really isn't an issue since they made a trivial factual claim, which happens to be correct, regarding the term of art, brick [wikipedia.org] . Your own credibility has been called into question, however, by your incorrect stance over an issue you could have verified yourself in less time that it took you to type your baseless attack. If you wish to improve your credibility, spend the next hour at Wikipedia reading about logical fallacies. For extra credit, identify by name the logical fallacy you committed.

So you claim Bricking is the correct term? (4, Funny)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487309)

And you just lost all your geek cred trying to shoot down someone who is *properly* defining what bricking really means.

Don't worry, a new UID will suit you well.

Completely Overblown (2, Informative)

diamondsw (685967) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487335)

Overblown just a bit? There's a bug here. Sadly, one that is not likely to be fixed, since it was in the last planned release of Tiger, but consider:
  • This has only affected a few users - it is NOT widespread (10.4.11 has been out for nearly two weeks, and this is the first we hear of it).
  • This only affects users with Boot Camp, which like it or not is beta software on Tiger, and always has been. Standard disclaimers apply.
  • All data is intact; otherwise you couldn't access it by Firewire Target Disk mode, or by booting from a CD. Something is simply screwing with the initial boot process.
  • Nothing here indicates that it cannot be fixed by an Archive and Install process to lay down a fresh copy of the OS. On OS X, this keeps your home directory and settings completely intact, and almost every third-party application. You might have to manually move a couple files from the "Previous System" folder to your fresh OS.

So, no real data loss, only a couple unfortunate users reporting it, and it's relatively easily fixable. I'm sorry, but stuff like this happens to someone with any OS patch, on any platform. Not news.

Re:Yeah (1)

webmaster404 (1148909) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487003)

Sure its not "bricking" but its a Mac equivalent to a Blue Screen of Death, which although Windows is re-installable because your BIOS isn't broken it sure is a pain to do so. Computers with working hardware and a BIOS can never be truly "bricked" but they can come very close to being as useful as one.

Re:Yeah (1)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487045)

Oh, I'm not saying it isn't a pain in the ass, but bricking is far from accurate. It's like someone just copied a Digg headline to Slashdot.

Re:Yeah (2, Insightful)

EvanED (569694) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487137)

Sure its not "bricking" but its a Mac equivalent to a Blue Screen of Death

Um, no, it's not. A BSOD is usually a temporary condition, and rebooting "solves" it. Sure it's an indication of a bug, but if that bug only causes a fault every 1000 hours of operation, that's not too horrible. Certainly well below the "you need to reinstall" level.

Sure, there are things that will prevent you from booting again that also cause BSODs, but these are a small part of all BSODs.

Re:Yeah (1)

webmaster404 (1148909) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487169)

For me 75% of all BSOD were unbootable systems, the rest were wi-fi and other-type cards not being pressed in all the way

Re:Yeah (0)

gordgekko (574109) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487049)

Please sir, can I punch the straw man too? Who said anything about bricking. Right, you.

Re:Yeah (0, Flamebait)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487079)

Read the headline, dumbass! It's right there! Are you selectively illiterate or something?

Re:Yeah (1)

dotgain (630123) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487391)

Don't mind him. Like a thousand other slashdotters, he learned what a Strawman was last week, and he's just trying to throw it round a bit.

Re:Yeah (1)

HansKloss (665474) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487051)

It is bricked.
After reading Apple recommendation to reset Power Management system, take battery out-press power button for 5 seconds, got even worse.
Can't use DVD drive anymore, won't boot into single mode or safe mode and verbose get stuck on errno 88.

Should I buy and keep a second Mac to be able use Firewire mode in case like this?

Re:Yeah (1)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487103)

This is a system update and does not write to the motherboard firmware or the PMU. Your Mac already had issues if you're seeing these kinds of problems. I've seen some things that would look like an OS update glitch until you test the hardware and find that the motherboard is messed up. An OS update doesn't do that.

Jumping the gun? (1)

mbessey (304651) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487087)

Okay, a couple of people report a problem on Apple's support site, one guy got what's probably bad advice from his local Mac Genius, and now it's on Slashdot?

I don't doubt that these people are upset, but there's nothing in the linked discussion that even validates the theory that the problem is Boot Camp related...

Re:Yeah (1)

noidentity (188756) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487105)

The rate at which words are misused to dramatize things seems to be increasing. The term "bricking" isn't that old, and it's already being used anytime something causes any problems someone doesn't like, rather than only when it makes the device as useless as a brick. Repeat after me: if you can get the device working again without having to solder a JTAG debug device or similar, it's NOT FUCKING BRICKED. It's like making everything bold and thus losing the emphasis bold used to have; what the hell is the point?

Re:Yeah (1)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487111)

Errm, a minor update causes OS X running in a common configuration to not boot. Sounds like news for nerds to me!

The article also suggests that Apple new about the issue prior to release, a very serious charge if true.

Watch the quality of Desktop version of OS X slip as Jobs puts all the good engineers onto the iPhone/iPod. After all, as Jobs himself said: "...unning Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for all it's worth -- and get busy on the next great thing. The PC wars are over. Done. Microsoft won a long time ago."

Re:Yeah (0, Flamebait)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487145)

I'd need to see someone other than a Mac Genius (who doesn't really know much from the higher-ups who would actually know if this was a known issue) saying that this was a known issue before I'd buy that. A bunch of things can screw up your OS, but why do they hit the news page, hmm? We have maybe half a dozen scattered reports. That doesn't add up to much at all. And your quote from Jobs is from a long, long time ago. Considering how Mac sales are up, I think that his view has probably changed significantly.

Re:Yeah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21487151)

Yeah, but Macs "Just Work"(tm). You can't expect a non-savvy Mac user like kdawson to know the difference between a fixable problem and a bricking.

Re:Yeah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21487411)

a "non-savvy Mac user" probably wouldn't be running a beta version of a tool to partition the hard drive in order to run Windows.

anyone who can follow the steps required to use Boot Camp and figure out how to reinstall the system using "archive and install," which wouldn't change the disk partition scheme or affect the Windows installation.

Advice received in a retail store from a clerk is worth what you pay for it. It's unfortunate that Apple rolled out an update with problems, but this isn't exactly a major crisis affecting lots of people. No doubt Mary Jo Foley will add this to her list of why Leopard users will suddenly want to buy a PC and run Vista, but outside of CNET's ZDnet bloggers, there's not much of a story.

Re:Yeah (1, Informative)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487239)

In addition to my original post, I'd also like to add that I work in a Mac shop. I've seen some Leopard bugs that made me shake my head in disgust, but I have yet to see any issues with 10.4.11, this one included, and I've had plenty of Macs with 10.4.x come across the bench that were upgraded to 10.4.11 with no issues at all. I seriously doubt this is widespread at all.

Re:Yeah (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487297)

I have to agree, its damned frustrating and inconvenient, but its not a *brick*.

It is bricked (1)

ThaNooch (1186931) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487321)

Bricking: (common definition) rendering something useless due to a hardware or firmware failure. Bricking: (software spin) rendering something useless due to software failure. What is the difference here? If I'm not knowledgeable enough to affect change in my system (either hardware or software fiddling) I'm still taking my bricked item up to the store and dealing with some d-bag (forgot they were called geniuses) with a nasally voice telling me either it's under warranty or I have to pony up $100. The MAC itself isn't giving me any options, it's just sitting on my desk like an over-sized 5-letter word.

Re:It is bricked (1)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487355)

1. Insert original system CD or compatible retail disc 2. Boot from CD by holding down the C key when you hear the boot chime 3. Proceed with reinstallation. Try to archive & install from the "Options" button at the drive selection stage. It's not that tough. It's not rendered useless just because you don't know what to do. A simple procedure can make the computer operational again, ergo, it is not bricked.

Re:It is bricked (1)

ThaNooch (1186931) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487425)

My cousin fixed his "bricked" X-Box 360 (ring of death) by cracking it open, soldering a couple wires he noticed were fried, and modding it to include better heat-sinks. Pretty simple for an engineer or hardware buff, but I wouldn't know how to do it. Bricking is a relative term. If the average user machine has to go to a specialist (even for us non-MAC users), it's bricked. If the machine tells you how to fix it on boot, and/or you can retain your data without additional hardware (as second MAC), it may not be bricked.

Re:It is bricked (1)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487449)

And if it's a simple procedure that can be fixed with no hardware hacks or such procedures, then it's not bricked. Five minutes on the phone to your local Mac shop would have you humming along with a reinstallation.

Re:Yeah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21487413)

Please. In addition, this is NOT A BRICKING.
This is a common phenomenon. Apple users get hold of a term, namely "it got bricked". Apple fanatics, being parrots, go around repeating the term, especially if it sounds cool, since Apple fanatics like things that appear cool even if they're stupid. Then, the term gets used in the wrong context all over.

Re:Yeah (1)

timeOday (582209) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487457)

Is it true that OSX 10.4 is incompatible with bootcamp? I had considered getting a PowerBook instead of a Dell to experiment with OSX while retaining compatibility with Windows, but decided against it because I was afraid bootcamp wasn't offically supported and could go away. Now it sounds like that has happened?

Oh that's nice. (1, Flamebait)

onefriedrice (1171917) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486971)

> MacNN has a note up that if you fall victim to this "known issue" and need to reformat the disk,
> you can't reinstall Boot Camp because it is no longer available to OS X 10.4 Tiger users.

That's a nice way to treat your beta testers. After the beta period, simply render the machine unbootable making them reformat so there's no way for them to continue using the software they've been testing for you for the past year. That's really good, well done.

If it was anyone but Apple....

Re:Oh that's nice. (1)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486995)

Yeah, because I'm SURE it was deliberate. *rolleyes*

Re:Oh that's nice. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21487295)

The Good Steve giveth, and the Good Steve taketh away.

Amen.

Re:Oh that's nice. (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487443)

The Good Steve giveth, and the Good Steve taketh away.

You put an extra 'o' in God.

Why? (1)

mfh (56) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487365)

Why let them off the hook so easily?

Good Bye Apple!

Re:Oh that's nice. (0, Troll)

Internet Ronin (919897) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487373)

I'm sure this is definitely mod-bait, but Apple's Boot Camp beta has expired.

If you have Boot Camp installed now, and it's not on your new Leopard operating system, you're running pirated software; you are in violation of the EULA; do not pass "Go;" do not collect $200.

I realize the issue is that people have beef with the fact that they've been getting Boot Camp for free, and now Apple, bastards that they are, have the gall to use the finished product as a means to make money. They have always been open and upfront with the fact that Boot Camp Beta was a limited license, set to expire, and that the new version would be a part of Leopard, a pay-for-upgrade product.

Where's the beef?

If you've got a pirated version of Photoshop, you install an Adobe-branded update that notices your copy is in violation of their EULA, and they cripple it, do you really think you've got any sort of recourse? It's like filing a police report that someone has stolen your marijuana (apologies to the cool countries that legalized it, maybe the bug up our ass will die one day).

Apple's position, legitimized by the American legal system (and any legal system that recognizes EULAs for that matter), is that they released a software update that wouldn't cripple anyone that was in compliance with the law and the EULA. Only those in violation are hosed.

Shady business tactic? Maybe.
Legally justified? Absolutely, 100%, no question, without a doubt.

Need more common hardware... (-1, Offtopic)

webmaster404 (1148909) | more than 6 years ago | (#21486973)

One of the reasons that has put me off getting a Mac (besides the high price, and the fact that Ubuntu can act like a Mac on a $25 used desktop) is the fact that Apple has control over the hardware and software. If you need *insert application that is a given on Linux and Windows* you have to pay $100 to get it, or if your hardware isn't supported anymore, your out of luck. It wouldn't be such a bad problem if the average Mac laptop costs $1000 and $500 PC laptops that can run Linux fine are common. If Apple would allow OS-X to be used on ordinary hardware or make it less proprietary by open-sourcing the components under a better license (why do I need to put my primary billing address to sign up for an account just to download source code???) or open sourcing all of OS-X. Another reason I don't go out and buy a Mac is Apple's lack of interest in supporting Linux despite it being an "alternative OS" like OS-X is and more then capable of doing the same things that OS-X and XP do, yet there is no iTunes or other key apps for it, nor are they open-source so porting would be easy. I doubt that I will be getting a Mac soon and this story only keeps me from buying one, if Apple would make their hardware and software less proprietary, OS-X would grow and topple Vista in a heartbeat.

Re:Need more common hardware... (1)

phantomcircuit (938963) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487031)

But then apple would be just as unstable as windows!

No really the only reason that OS X is more stable is because the drivers are all written in house.

Re:Need more common hardware... (1)

webmaster404 (1148909) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487093)

And the fact it uses a BSD like kernel which is way more stable then any NT kernel, and it has true permissions that are horribly emulated in UAC of Vista, so misbehaving applications can't install tons of spyware and the like.

Re:Need more common hardware... (1, Informative)

aitikin (909209) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487259)

First off, the argument about a Mac being over priced is extremely flawed on the high end (which is usually where I'm paying attention). Second, I really can't think of anytime that there's been an app that's $100 that normally is a "given" in Windows. Linux, you can find anything as a given, and because of this, you can usually find a good counterpart for OS X. Apple has some of the best support for older systems. Last I checked, through a little hacking, the latest revision of the operating system can be installed on over 7 year old hardware and legitimately with 5 year old hardware.

Now, the supporting Linux is a slightly fair argument. They use a BSD variant and give it some support (merely by following the license they made). I am not a fan of their neglecting Linux on the iTunes front, but that being said, the only thing I'd like to see Linux have is easy access to the iTMS. You can use FAAD and FAAC (yes, FAAC sucks kinda).

Now here's the key point that has come up time and time and time and time again. APPLE IS A HARDWARE COMPANY!!! Software is an afterthought to them. They do a damned good job with software, but still, it's not their primary concern. Their primary concern is selling Macs. So keeping that in mind, the fact that they still support half a decade old hardware is saying something. Claim they're evil, say they need to support Linux, they need to sell cheaper computers, etc.

I'd be glad to take the lesser of two evils here, and in the battle between Winbloz and Mac, Mac is the lesser evil.

If this makes me an "Apple" fanboy and modded down, so be it. I just think that people blow this way out of proportion. Besides, for the topic at hand, yeah, it sucks that the hardware won't really work anymore, but then again, it is kinda a shame that people leach off of the kindness of others, like beta testers that use it after the final product is out.

Interesting (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21486987)

I guess Vista isn't the worst operating system update ever.

OSX 10.4.11 (5, Funny)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487007)

Just reached #11 on CNET UK's "Worst Consumer Tech" list ;)

*ducks*

Hmm... (1)

di0s (582680) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487013)

"Boot Camp doesn't work in 10.4 anymore? Upgrade to Leopard!" Planned obsolescence strikes again!

Re:Hmm... (3, Informative)

2ms (232331) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487047)

No, Boot Camp before Leopard was always Beta only. You had to agree to recognize that before installing. It was originally only going to be available with Leopard, but then they decided to offer it as a Beta that you download from Apple. It never came on any macs before Leopard. You had to go download it (for free) as beta software.

Re:Hmm... (5, Informative)

644bd346996 (1012333) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487213)

This could actually be interpreted as partly Google's fault, for raising expectations of "beta" software. Which is exactly what Boot Camp on 10.4 is: a public beta that expired quite a while ago. In particular, when the beta software also involves your boot sector and the Windows bootloader, you should consider yourself lucky to have anything recoverable. (Of course, it doesn't sound like Windows was at fault here, but nobody should be surprised when something like this breaks.)

In the case of the OP on the Apple forums, it sounds like the biggest problem was that the person had less than 1GB free space on the OS X partition. Obviously, this is only indirectly due to BootCamp, but it did stop the OP from doing an "archive and re-install" of the OS. It is interesting that one person reported that running the 10.4.11 updater under 10.5 but applied to the 10.4.10 partition works, so it isn't a completely reliable bug.

It is also worth noting that nobody has reported an actual filesystem corruption requiring a reformat, so the linked article is just plain wrong. Using the "archive and install" option to roll back the OS seems to be a reliable workaround. (With the one exception noted above.)

Re:Hmm... (1)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487399)

You can still boot to your Windows partition just fine. You just can't use Boot Camp to repartition your drive. Hell, you could still install Windows on a secondary hard drive. Yawn.

Re:Hmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21487407)

Ask not what Tiger can do for you, ask what you can format for Tiger!

Is this standard procedure, or only this case? (1)

Optic7 (688717) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487019)

This "wipe the hard drive" procedure, is it a standard procedure if OS X doesn't boot, or is there something about this update that royally screws up the whole system beyond a OS reinstall?

I've used OS X a little bit, but never done any system work on it so I'm not an expert. I'm just curious about this because although I look at OS X positively, it sounds scary to me that the fix for a non-boot condition is to wipe the hard drive. Or is this just the easy fix for Joe Sixpack and there's really a more in-depth fix that doesn't involve wiping the drive but is too difficult for the average user?

Re:Is this standard procedure, or only this case? (1)

gEvil (beta) (945888) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487099)

I can just about guarantee that there's a fix that doesn't require wiping. It'll take some good old troubleshooting, but I'm sure a fix is out there. The easy fix is for J6P.

Re:J6P! (1)

colfer (619105) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487237)

Joe 6-Pack needs an acronym?

Re:J6P! (1)

gEvil (beta) (945888) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487331)

It's not an acronym--it's an initialism. And yes he does, because he's lazy! : p

Re:Is this standard procedure, or only this case? (1)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487159)

Or is this just the easy fix for Joe Sixpack and there's really a more in-depth fix that doesn't involve wiping the drive but is too difficult for the average user?

On the support forum users are reporting the option to reinstall the OS while archiving the old data seems to work. There is no need to wipe the drive and I imagine it is just people conditioned by years of windows use; wiping the drive versus the correct option is just a matter of which selection button you pick and is no harder.

Re:Is this standard procedure, or only this case? (1)

rhavenn (97211) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487235)

Sounds to me like it basically just eats the MBR? Isn't there some OS X boot disk / utility to rebuild the MBR?

brick? (4, Insightful)

Gary W. Longsine (124661) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487023)

The term "brick [wikipedia.org] " is being bandied about pretty loosely these days. It does not mean, "I had a problem, possibly even one of my own creation, that can only be cured by re-installation, and that annoys me and I think I can get some blog hits by griping about it."

Appropriate Tag? (0, Flamebait)

Huntr (951770) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487025)

"Defectivebydesign"

Lighten up, I'm joking.

that's the Beta Bootcamp only (5, Informative)

2ms (232331) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487027)

My 10.4.11 with Bootcamp froze for about five hours during the screen where the choice between your OSes comes up. It was just the grey background with neither hd icon showing. I thought everything was toast. Left for a while in despair and total frustration -- it wouldn't even go into OS X -- but it seemingly magically "worked itself out" after something like 5 hours. Strange. Anyway, installed Leopard immediately because Bootcamp was supposed to stop working when Leopard released anyway and my livelihood unfortunatley depends on using Windows every day on my machine.

If you read the original agreement when install Bootcamp without Leopard (ie the pre-Leopard versions of Bootcamp), it tells you it is Beta software only and that it will expire in October 2007. And that's what it did.

I installed Leopard anyway -- the full, non-beta Bootcamp (ie the one in Leopard release) has a bunch of additional features and drivers (such as for eject button, volume buttons, lots of little details that the beta did not -- it's much better -- I highly recommend Leopard to any heavy Windows users.

Re:that's the Beta Bootcamp only (1)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487181)

The Boot Camp beta expiring means you can't use it to repartition your hard drive. It's not going to nuke your Windows partition/drive. You could even use a Windows install disc to install to another hard drive, or even wipe OS X and install Windows without ever using Boot Camp.

Re:that's the Beta Bootcamp only (1)

2ms (232331) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487405)

The issues with Boot camp began in October. Go to Macrumors forums there's a ton of info on the topic there. This is old news.

Re:that's the Beta Bootcamp only (1)

Chelloveck (14643) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487195)

If you read the original agreement when install Bootcamp without Leopard (ie the pre-Leopard versions of Bootcamp), it tells you it is Beta software only and that it will expire in October 2007. And that's what it did.

I don't know. I've had Boot Camp on my Mac for a long time now. I upgraded to 10.4.11 right when it came out. I can still boot to the Windows partition; I did so just yesterday. Doesn't seem to me like this is some conscious decision to disable Boot Camp with the new version of the OS. I don't know if you can still do a fresh install of Boot Camp on a 10.4.11 box, but I can vouch that the patch doesn't necessarily break an existing installation.

Re:that's the Beta Bootcamp only (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21487263)

Anyway, installed Leopard immediately because Bootcamp was supposed to stop working when Leopard released anyway and my livelihood unfortunatley depends on using Windows every day on my machine.
Wait wait wait...you were relying on BETA software for you livelihood?

Clearly you need to read this: [apple.com]

Warning: Boot Camp Beta is preview software licensed for use on a trial basis for a limited time. Do not use Boot Camp Beta in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all of your data before installing this software and regularly back up data while using the software. Your rights to use Boot Camp Beta are subject to acceptance of the terms of the software license agreement that accompanies the software.

Re:that's the Beta Bootcamp only (1)

kramulous (977841) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487431)

Do you run rEFIt (http://refit.sourceforge.net/)?

Right.... (2, Insightful)

feepness (543479) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487067)

So you can lose all your files during a copy, an upgrade will break your computer requiring a re-install of the OS...

...and Vista is the one we're supposed to give up on?

Meanwhile The Linux World Continues To Flounder (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21487083)

Microsoft and Vista a mess most people don't want to touch or deal with.

Apple and OS X becoming more and more of just another buggy OS and app vendor but with a huge markup on their prices.

Almost everyone I know want to move on to an open vendor neutral platform like Linux and yet...

* We still have to competing desktops that are only marginally different in how they fail to deliver a commercial grade user experience

* KDE klowns are still sitting around slapping each other on the back about naming everything with the idiotic K in front and doing a poor job of cloning Windows 2000

* Gnome still has Microsoft fanboys infesting open source desktops with Microsoft patent time bombs

* Open source/Linux developers still can't seem to grasp the most basic principals of font usage, UI element spacing and alignments, colour choice, and so on and instead are pointlessly trying to 'prove they are ahead' with inane 3D accelerated desktop effects no one wants

* A million sub 1.0 apps all of which do some things right and other things wrong but no single apps that actually get things people expect from commercial desktop software. And each of those open source apps depend on a hundred million crazily named library packages that are constantly getting updated.

The computing world WANTS to jump to Linux. They've been wanting to for years. They are waiting for you open source kids to finally grow up and get your shit together.

Wow! (1)

NEOtaku17 (679902) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487147)

Did you just say that on Slashdot?.....

Boot Camp never came on Macs before Leopard! (2, Informative)

2ms (232331) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487117)

It was Beta Software. You had to recognize this to install it. It was a free beta download. It was never part of Tiger. It was something you were given opportunity to try for free as beta software, but was originally intended to only become available with Leopard!

Please grasp this people.

When you installed it, it told you that it expired in October 2007!

Try This Instead: (4, Insightful)

thedbp (443047) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487139)

Not sure what the exact symptoms are, because no one in this thread seems to have actually experienced the issue. If its an issue where you turn the computer on, and all you get is the Apple logo and spinning gear, follow these directions:

If you have access to another Mac that is still working:

1. Put the 'broken' Mac in FireWire Disk Mode (reboot while holding down "T").
2. Attach via FireWire, the HD shows up on the desktop.
3. Download the 10.4.11 Combo update and re-install it on the "broken" Mac. Make sure its the "Combo" update. Get it by searching for "10.4.11 Combo" at apple.com/support
4. Reboot the "broken" Mac, it should just work now.

If you have a bootable external drive (always good for troubleshooting and recovery!), boot the "broken" Mac to the external drive and follow the above steps from 3.

Its actually really quick and easy to fix. Hope this helps.

Re:Try This Instead: (2)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487221)

If you have access to another Mac that is still working:

Supposedly, just reinstalling from disk and selecting the archive old data option works too, without needing an external disk. Of course if you have an external disk, backing up is a good idea.

I have a 17" iMac bought one month after this guy (5, Informative)

theurge14 (820596) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487171)

On that thread he says he has a 17" Macbook Pro bought 9/06, I bought my 17" iMac a month later. I was able to run Software Update from OS X 10.4.10 to 10.4.11 without incident and I also have the Boot Camp beta (1.3 to be exact). Anecdotal evidence really doesn't prove much in his case.

The thing I don't understand about his story is that he took his Macbook Pro to a Apple store genius bar and they told him his only option was a reinstall, they wouldn't tell him how to boot into target disk mode and now he's online asking how to fix this problem? Uh... I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that.

Sage Advice... (2, Insightful)

TheRealPhilKenSebben (1011981) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487207)

Never apply updates through Apple's automatic Software Update. Use Software Update as a reference to evaluate the state of your install. Use the disk image downloads from the software update [apple.com] page. Wait at least two weeks from the date the update is released while watching the discussion groups and mailing lists for "issues". As far as 'Boot Camp' is concerned, Parallels Workstation beats it 'hands down'. NQA. On a dual 'Dual Core' MacPro, Parallels is the fastest booting 'PeeCee' I've ever used. Bar none. If you have 'years' of personal data on your drive you should always 'image first, update later'. Expect 'Something Stupid'(TM) to happen no matter what you do.

mostly fud (1)

Alterion (925335) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487229)

I can appreciate that apple hasn't handled the issue here well, but firstly bootcamp was always a BETA on tiger, i know that word is nearing meaningless in todays internet, but it does mean - "we think there still might be some critical bugs left" for apple even if it didn't for youtube. Secondly, data is still transferable via firewire of other method, and ofc any sensible person coming from windows has leant long ago to backup because you can never tell what is going to happen. I like to think that in 2007 we are beyond somewhat " there are bugs in software- OMG this sucks" Finally it is NOT bricking, if the data is still able to be recovered and a re-install is possible that is a serious bug, a bug is not something worth reporting to slash.

Dangerous Update (1)

HansKloss (665474) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487243)

No other update in the last two years caused so much havoc.
It should be pulled immediately.

Re:Dangerous Update (1)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487429)

Oh, bullshit. I work in a Mac shop and have yet to see one problem related to 10.4.11. I've seen a lot more with Leopard.

Unlicensed Software (2, Informative)

Pinky3 (22411) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487247)

"The license to use Boot Camp Beta expires when Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard is available to the public."

"Warning: Boot Camp Beta is preview software licensed for use on a trial basis for a limited time. Do not use Boot Camp Beta in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all of your data before installing this software and regularly back up data while using the software. Your rights to use Boot Camp Beta are subject to acceptance of the terms of the software license agreement that accompanies the software."

Users of Boot Camp Beta did read the terms of use, didn't they?

I'll just wait for 10.5 to come out. (1)

tenyearsgone (1132747) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487275)

Actually I'm just waiting for 10.5.1. Or .2--I don't even know. I'm in the last month of writing my thesis so I refuse to upgrade ANY PART of my system, such is the paranoia induced by writing a Ph.D. thesis. However the freedom from updates is liberating. I will be saying "no" more often from now on. Do I really need that new jvm or itunes distribution? Nope.

Re:I'll just wait for 10.5 to come out. (1)

Macgrrl (762836) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487427)

Please tell me your paranoia includes backing up your data.

When working as a Mac service technician, I lost count of the number of times I had Masters and PHD students come in crying wanting a data recovery done because the last 5 years of work was on a computer which had crashed and it was the only copy they had...

I'm not sure what it was about post-grads, but the 'smarter' they were, the less common sense they seemed to exhibit.

obviously it MUST be acceptable (1)

v1 (525388) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487315)

"It is evidence (in my opinion) of very sloppy software release. To crash a system on a known problem with Boot Camp is 100 per cent totally unacceptable. People (like me) have just too much stuff on their systems to be having to start over with hard disk reformat," the analyst told Macworld UK.

since so many windows users have to do that when their OS gets totally owned by a virus. (the odds of a reformat-requiring infection on XP right now is about 1 in 25 from what we see - "you'd better bring your restore disks in...")

Get the bugs out. (1)

jackspenn (682188) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487319)

Would this be a "bug"?

Why doesn't Apple let Tiger users download Bootcamp? Smells like a "forced update".

- Eric

Re:Get the bugs out. (2, Insightful)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487439)

Would this be a "bug"?

Sure, but one that only shows up if you're running expired beta software, so not really a priority for Apple.

Why doesn't Apple let Tiger users download Bootcamp? Smells like a "forced update".

Umm, because it is a feature of their new OS and they want people to pay for new features. The only way this is different from all the other new features in 10.5 is that they offered a beta that worked on 10.4 and told you when you installed it that:

  • It was a beta and not supported
  • The beta expires in October 2007, and using it beyond that is strictly "at your own risk."

If someone installed an update and was still running the 10.5 beta instead of the real version and it broke something, would you complain that Apple was just trying to get money out of them by forcing them to buy the real version instead of testing and supporting the beta still?

Apple has insufficiently tested updates before and messed up and accidentally broken fixes with updates and deserve to be taken to task when that happens. They've been pretty good about getting right on the problem and issuing a new fix within a week or so. This, however, expired beta software, seems like a non-issue to me.

First Page of the Instructions... (1)

CaptainDefragged (939505) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487347)

...after the ToC

"Warning: Boot Camp Beta is a prerelease software licensed for use on a trial basis for a limited time. Do not use Boot Camp Beta in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all of your data before installing this software and regularly back up all data while using the software. Your rights to use Boot Camp Beta are subject to the acceptance of the terms of the software license agreement that accompanies the software."
It seems to me that there is a lot of "this may or may not work - be careful" written in this document. That alone should suggest that it is not entirely stable as well as being beta. Whilst I don't have a copy of the EULA handy, I do recall a mention that the "limited time" referred to is December 2007. Whether it will continue to function after then, I do not know, but I hope it does, as I want to wait a bit longer before buying Leopard.

An interesting coincidence (4, Insightful)

Alexx K (1167919) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487353)

I know I'll probably be modded down for this, but...

  1. Apple releases a popular piece of software in beta form.
  2. apple releases new operating system, in which this software is included.
  3. Apple makes this software unavailable for older OS.
  4. Apple releases update that borks installs of older OS's with this software, so OS must be reinstalled.
  5. Apple: "Woops, sorry about that! Upgrading to Leopard for just $129 will fix this problem! Will that be cheque, credit card, debit, or money order?"

Slow Boot (1)

kramulous (977841) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487395)

So, is this the reason why my boot times are much slower (just kick started my incremental backup routine)? Does this mean that I don't perform anymore updates as I can't trust them (yes, I know. I shouldn't really be trusting them in the first place)? Dammit. Starting to look like I have to go to Linux full-time. I've tried to install ubuntu on this machine, but it doesn't like it (graphics are the problem - the command line appears to work fine, but don't know how to configure the X11 properly).

Does anybody know of a dist that runs flawlessly on a MacBook Pro? And by flawlessly, I mean not having to tune every, single config file.

I think the correct term is (3, Informative)

Techman83 (949264) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487415)

Hosed [foldoc.org] not brick [wikipedia.org]

Mac bricking skit (1)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 6 years ago | (#21487451)

It's not bricked, it's pining for the fjords.
</montypython>
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