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Leopard as the New Vista?

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the angry-apple-man-scares-me dept.

OS X 734

ninja_assault_kitten writes "There's an interesting rant from Oliver Rist up on the PC Magazine site. He compares the catastrophe that is Vista to the recently released OS X Leopard. While clearly one is a lion and the other a cub, there do appear to be some frustrating similarities. From the article: 'A month of using Leopard with the same software I had under Tiger and the OS has dumped six times. That's six cold reboots for Oliver. Apple isn't even honest enough to admit that Leopard is crashing: The OS just grays out my desktop and pops up a dialog box telling me I've got to reboot. Like the whole thing is my fault. I even snapped a picture of it. After all, I HAD PLENTY OF CHANCES!'"

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Clearly you're mistaken (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21527805)

Clearly you're mistaken. Apple is perfect. This must be Bill's fault.

Apple fanboi roll call!

Ike Thomas made me a mac user (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21527823)

When I think of dirty old men, I think of Ike Thomas and when I think about Ike I get a hard-on that won't quit.

Sixty years ago, I worked in what was once my grandfather's greenhouses. Gramps had died a year earlier and Grandma, now in her seventies had been forced to sell to the competition. I got a job with the new owners and mostly worked the range by myself. That summer, they hired a man to help me get the benches ready for the fall planting.

Ike always looked like he was three days from a shave and his whiskers were dirty white, shaded by the brim of his battered felt fedora.

He did not chew tobacco but the corners of his mouth turned down in a way that, at any moment, I expected a trickle of thin, brown juice to creep down his chin. His bushy, brown eyebrows shaded pale, gray eyes.

The old-timer extended his hand, lifted his leg like a dog about to mark a bush and let go the loudest fart I ever heard. The old fellow then winked at me, "Ike Thomas is the name and playing pecker's my game."

I thought he said, "Checkers." I was nineteen, green as grass. I said, "I was never much good at that game."

"Now me," said Ike, "I just love jumping men ..."

"I'll bet you do."

"... and grabbing on to their peckers," said Ike.

"I thought we were talking about ..."

"You like jumping old men's peckers?"

I shook my head.

"I reckon we'll have to remedy that." Ike lifted his right leg and let go another tremendous fart. "He said, "We best be getting to work."

That summer of 1941 was a more innocent time. I learned most of the sex I knew from those little eight pager cartoon booklets of comic-page characters going at it. Young men read them in the privacy of an outside john, played with themselves, by themselves and didn't brag about it. Sometimes, we got off with a trusted friend and helped each other out.

Under the greenhouse glass, the temperature some times climbed over the hundred degree mark. I had worked stripped to the waist since April and was as brown as a berry. On only his second day on the job and in the middle of August, Ike wore old fashioned overalls. Those and socks in his high-top work shoes was every stitch he wore. When he bent forward, the bib front billowed out and I could see the white curly hairs on his chest and belly.

"Me? I just love to eat pussy!" Ike licked his lips from corner to corner then sticking his tongue out far enough that the tip could touch the end of his nose. He said, A man's not a man till he knows first hand, the flavor of a lady's pussy."

"People do that?"

He winked. "Of course the taste of a hard cock ain't to be sneezed at neither. Now you answer me, yes or no. Does a man's cock taste salty or not?"

"I never ..."

"Well, old Ike's willing to let you find out."

"No way."

"Just teasing," said Ike. "But don't give me no sass or I'll show you my ass." He winked. "Might show it to you anyway, if you was to ask."

"Why would I do that?"

"Curiosity, maybe. I'm guessing you never had a good piece of man ass."

"I'm no queer."

"Now don't be getting judgmental. Enjoying what's at hand ain't being queer. It's taking pleasure where you find it with anybody willing." Ike slipped a hand into the side slit of his overalls and I could tell he was fondling and straightening out his cock. "Now I admit I got me a hole that satisfied a few guys."

I swallowed, hard.

Ike winked. "Care to be asshole buddies?"

We worked steadily until noon. Ike drew a worn pocket watch from the bib pocket of his loose overalls and croaked, "Bean time. But first its time to reel out our limber hoses and make with the golden arches before lunch."

I followed Ike to the end of the greenhouse where he stopped at the outside wall of the potting shed. He opened his fly, fished inside, and finger-hooked a soft white penis with a pouting foreskin puckered half an inch past the hidden head.

"Yes sir," breathed Ike, "this old peter needs some draining." He exhaled a sigh as a strong, yellow stream splattered against the boards and ran down to soak into the earthen floor.

He caught me looking down at him. He winked. "Like what you're viewing, Boy?"

I looked away.

"You taking a serious interest in old Ike's pecker?"

I shook my head.

"Well you just haul out yourn and let old Ike return the compliment."

Feeling trapped and really having to go, I fumbled at my fly, turned away slightly, withdrew my penis and strained to start.

"Take your time boy. Let it all hang out. Old Ike's the first to admit that he likes looking at another man's pecker." He flicked away the last drop of urine and shook his limp penis vigorously.

I tried not to look interested.

"Yes sir, this old peepee feels so good out, I just might leave it out." He turned to give me a better view.

"What if somebody walks in?"

Ike shrugged. He looked at my strong yellow stream beating against the boards and moved a step closer. "You got a nice one,boy."

I glanced over at him. His cock was definitely larger and beginning to stick straight out. I nodded toward his crotch. "Don't you think you should put that away?"

"I got me strictly a parlor prick," said Ike. "Barely measures six inches." He grinned. "Of course it's big enough around to make a mouthful." He ran a thumb and forefinger along its length and drawing his foreskin back enough to expose the tip of the pink head. "Yersiree." He grinned, revealing nicotine stained teeth. "It sure feels good, letting the old boy breathe."

I knew I should button up and move away. I watched his fingers moving up and down the thickening column.

"You like checking out this old man's cock?"

I nodded. In spite of myself, my cock began to swell.

"Maybe we should have ourselves a little pecker pulling party." Ike slid his fingers back and forth on his expanding shaft and winked. "I may be old but I'm not against doing some little pud pulling with a friend."

I shook my head.

"Maybe I'll give my balls some air. Would you like a viewing of old Ike's hairy balls?"

I swallowed hard and moistened my dry lips.

He opened another button on his fly and pulled out his scrotum. "Good God, It feels good to set 'em free. Now let's see yours."


"Just to show you're neighborly," said Ike.

"I don't think so." I buttoned up and moved into the potting shed.

Ike followed, his cock and balls protruding from the front of his overalls. "Overlook my informality." Ike grinned. "As you can see I ain't bashful."

I nodded and took my sandwich from the brown paper bag.

"Yessir," said Ike. "I just might have to have myself an old fashioned peter pulling all by my lonesome. He unhooked a shoulder strap and let his overalls drop around his ankles.

I took a bite of my sandwich but my eyes remained on Ike.

"Yessiree," said Ike, "I got a good one if I do say so myself. Gets nearly as hard as when I was eighteen. You know why?"

I shook my head.

"Cause I keep exercising him. When I was younger I was pulling on it three time a day. Still like to do him every day I can."

"Some say you'll go blind if you do that too much."

"Bull-loney!" Don't you believe that shit. I been pulling my pud for close to fifty years and I didn't start till I was fifteen."

I laughed.

"You laughing at my little peter, boy?"

"Your hat." I pointed to the soiled, brown fedora cocked on his head. That and his overalls draped about his ankles were his only items of apparel. In between was a chest full of gray curly hair, two hairy legs. Smack between them stood an erect, pale white cock with a tip of foreskin still hiding the head.

"I am one hairy S.O.B.," said Ike.

"I laughed at you wearing nothing but a hat."

"Covers up my bald spot," said Ike. "I got more hair on my ass than I got on my head. Want to see?"

"Your head?"

"No, Boy, my hairy ass and around my tight, brown asshole." He turned, reached back with both hands and parted his ass cheeks to reveal the small, puckered opening. "There it is, Boy, the entrance lots of good feelings. Tell me, Boy, how would you like to put it up old Ike's ass?"

"I don't think so."

"That'd be the best damned piece you ever got."

"We shouldn't be talking like this."

"C'mon now, confess, don't this make your cock perk up a little bit?"

"I reckon," I confessed.

"You ever seen an old man's hard cock before," asked Ike.

"My grandpa's when I was twelve or thirteen."

"How'd that come about?"

He was out in the barn and didn't know I was around. He dropped his pants. It was real big he did things to it. He saw me and he turned around real fast but I saw it."

"What did your grandpa do?"

"He said I shouldn't be watching him doing that. He said something like grandma wouldn't give him some,' that morning and that I should get out of there and leave a poor man in peace to do what he had to do."

"Did you want to join him."

"I might have if he'd asked. He didn't."

"I like showing off my cock," said Ike. "A hard-on is something I always been proud of. A hard-on proves a man's a man. Makes me feel like a man that can do things." He looked up at me and winked. "You getting a hard-on from all this talk, son?"

I nodded and looked away.

"Then maybe you should pull it out and show old Ike what you got."

"We shouldn't."

"Hey. A man's not a man till he jacked off with a buddy."

I wanted to but I was as nervous as hell.

Ike grinned and fingered his pecker. "C'mon, Boy, between friends, a little cock showing is perfectly fine. Lets see what you got in the cock and balls department."

In spite of my reluctance, I felt the stirring in my crotch. I had curiosity that needed satisfying. It had been a long, long time since I had walked in on my grandfather.

"C'mon let's see it all."

I shook my head.

"You can join the party anytime, said Ike. "Just drop your pants and pump away."

I had the urge. There was a tingling in my crotch. My cock was definitely willing and I had a terrible need to adjust myself down there. But my timidity and the strangeness of it all held me back.

Hope you don't mind if I play out this hand." Ike grinned. "It feels like I got a winner."

I stared at his gnarled hand sliding up and down that pale, white column and I could not look away. I wet my lips and shook my head.

Old Ike's about to spout a geyser." Ike breathed harder as he winked. "Now if I just had a long finger up my ass. You interested, boy?"

I shook my head.

The first, translucent, white glob crested the top of his cock and and arced to the dirt floor. Ike held his cock at the base with thumb and forefinger and tightened noticeably with each throb of ejaculation until he was finished.

I could not believe any man could do what he had done in front of another human being.

Ike sighed with pleasure and licked his fingers. "A man ain't a man till he's tasted his own juices."

He squatted, turned on the faucet and picked up the connected hose. He directed the water between his legs and on to his still dripping prick and milked the few remaining drops of white, sticky stuff into the puddle forming at his feet. "Cool water sure feels good on a cock that just shot its wad," said Ike.

"Cock-tale telling time," said Old Ike. It was the next day and he rubbed the front of his dirty,worn overalls where his bulge made the fly expand as his fingers smoothed the denim around the outline of his expanding cock.

I wasn't sure what he had in mind but I knew it wasn't something my straight-laced Grandma would approve of.

"Don't you like taking your cock out and jacking it?" Ike licked his lips.

I shook my head in denial.

"Sure you do. A young man in his prime has got to be pulling his pud."

I stared at his calloused hand moving over the growing bulge at his crotch.

"Like I said," continued Ike, "I got me barely six inches when he's standing up." He winked at me. "How much you got, son?"

"Almost seven inches ..." I stuttered. "Last time I measured."

"And I'm betting it feels real good with your fist wrapped around it."

"I don't do ..."

"Everybody does it." He scratched his balls and said, "I'll show you mine if you show me yours." Then, looking me in the eye, he lifted his leg like a dog at a tree and let out a long, noisy fart.

Denying that I jacked off, I said, "I saw yours yesterday."

"A man has got to take out his pecker every once in a while." He winked and his fingers played with a button on his fly. Care to join me today?"

"I don't think so."

"What's the matter, boy? You ashamed of what's hanging 'tween your skinny legs?"

"It's not for showing off."

"That would be so with a crowd of strangers but with a friend, in a friendly showdown, where's the harm?"

"It shouldn't be shown to other people. My Grandma said that a long time ago when I went to the bathroom against a tree when I was seven."

"There's nothing like a joint pulling among friends to seal a friendship," said Ike.

I don't think so." I felt very much, ill at ease.

"Then what the fuck is it for," demanded the old man. "A good man shares his cock with his friends. How old are you boy?"

"Fifteen almost sixteen."

You ever fucked a woman?"


"Ever fucked a man?"

"Of course not."

"Son, you ain't never lived till you've fired your load up a man's tight ass."

"I didn't know men did that to each other."

"Men shove it up men's asses men all the time. They just don't talk about it like they do pussy."

"You've done that?"

"I admit this old pecker's been up a few manholes. More than a few hard cocks have shagged this old ass over the years." He shook his head, wistfully, "I still have a hankering for a hard one up the old dirt chute."

"I think that would hurt."

"First time, it usually does," agreed Ike. He took a bite from his sandwich.

I looked at my watch. Ten minutes of our lunch hour had already passed.

"We got time for a quickie," said Ike. "There's no one around to say, stop, if were enjoying ourselves."

He unhooked the slide off the button of one shoulder-strap, pushed the bib of his overalls down to let them fall to his feet.

"Showtime," said Ike. Between his legs, white and hairy, his semi-hard cock emerged from a tangled mass of brown and gray pubic hair. The foreskin, still puckered beyond the head of the cock, extended downward forty-five degrees from the horizontal but was definitely on the rise.

I could only stare at the man. Until the day before, I had never seen an older man with an erection besides my grandpa.

Ike moved his fingers along the stalk of his manhood until the head partially emerged, purplish and broad. He removed his hand for a moment and it bobbled obscenely in the subdued light of the potting shed. Ike leaned back against a bin of clay pots like a model on display. "Like I said, boy, it gets the job done."

I found it difficult not to watch. "You shouldn't ..."

"C'mon, boy. Show Ike your pecker. I'm betting it's nice and hard."

I grasped my belt and tugged on the open end. I slipped the waistband button and two more before pushing down my blue jeans and shorts down in one move. My cock bounced and slapped my belly as I straightened."

"That's a beaut." Ike stroked his pale, white cock with the purplish-pink head shining. "I'm betting it'll grow some more if you stroke it."

"We really shouldn't ..."

"Now don't tell me you never stroked your hard peter with a buddy."

"I've done that," I finally admitted,. "But he was the same age as me and it was a long time ago." I though back to the last time Chuck and me jerked each other off in the loft of our old barn. Chuck wanted more as a going away present and we had sucked each other's dicks a little bit.

"Jackin's always better when you do it with somebody," said Ike. "Then you can lend each other a helping hand."

"I don't know about that," I said.

Ike's hand continued moving on his old cock as he leaned over to inspect mine. "God Damn! Boy. That cock looks good enough to eat." Ike licked his lips. "You ever had that baby sucked?"

I shook my head as I watched the old man stroke his hard, pale cock.

"Well boy, I'd say you're packing a real mouthful for some lucky gal or guy." He grinned. "Well c'mon. Let's see you get down to some serious jacking. Old Ike's way ahead of you."

I wrapped my fist around my stiff cock and moved the foreskin up and over the head on the up stroke. On the down stroke the expanded corona of the angry, purple head stared obscenely at the naked old man.

Ike toyed with his modest six inches. "What do you think of this old man's cock?" His fist rode down to his balls and a cockhead smaller than the barrel stared back at mine.

"I guess I'm thinking this is like doing it with my grandpa."

"You ever wish you could a done this with your grandpa?"

"I thought about it a lot."

"Ever see him with a hard-on."

"I told you about that!"

"Ever think about him doing your grandma?"

"I can't imagine her ever doing anything with a man."

"Take my word for it, sonny, we know she did it or you wouldn't be here." Begrudgingly I nodded in agreement.

"Everybody fucks," said old Ike. "They fuck or they jack off."

"If you say so."

"Say sonny, your cocks getting real juicy with slickum. Want old Ike tolick some of it away?"

"You wouldn't."

Ike licked his lips as he kept his hand pistoning up and down his hard cock. "You might be surprised what old Ike might do if he was in the mood for a taste of what comes out of a hard cock."

And that is what he proceeded to do. He sucked me dry.

Then he erupted in half-a-dozen spurts shooting out and onto the dirt floor of the potting shed. He gave his cock a flip and shucked t back into his overalls. He unwrapped a sandwich from its wax paper and proceed to eat without washing his hands. He took a bite and chewed. "Nothing like it boy, a good jacking clears the cobwebs from your crotch and gives a man an appetite."

The following day, We skipped the preliminaries. We dropped our pants. Ike got down on his knees and sucked me until I was hard and good and wet before he stood and turned.

"C'mon boy, Shove that pretty cock up old Ike's tight, brown hole and massage old Ike's prostate.

Ike bent forward and gripped the edge of the potting bench. The lean, white cheeked buttocks parted slightly and exposed the dark brown, crinkly, puckered star of his asshole. "Now you go slow and ease it along until you've got it all the way in," he cautioned. "This old ass craves your young cock but it don't want too much too soon. You've got to let this old hole stretch to accommodate you."

"Are you sure you want to do this?"

"Easy boy, easy," he cautioned. "You feel a lot bigger than you look. Put a little more spit in your cock."

"It's awfully tight. I don't know if it's going to go or not."

"It'll go," said Ike. "There's been bigger boys than you up the old shit chute."

I slipped in the the last few inches.. "It's all in."

"I can tell," said Ike. "Your cock hairs are tickling my ass."

"Are you ready," I asked.

"How are you liking old Ike's hairy asshole so far?"

"It's real tight."

"Tighter than your fist?"

"Might be."

"Ready to throw a fuck into a man that reminds you of your grandpa."

"I reckon."

"I want you should do old Ike one more favor."


While you're pumpin' my ass, would you reach around and play with my dick like you would your own? Would you do that for an old man?"

I reached around and took hold of his hard cock sticking out straight in front of him. I pilled the skin back and then pulled it up and over the expanded glans. I felt my own cock expand inside him as I manipulated his staff in my fingers. I imagined that my cock extended through him and I was playing with what came out the other side of him.

"C'mon, boy, ram that big cock up the old shitter and make me know it. God Damn! tickle that old prostate and make old Ike come!"

I came. And I came. Ike's tightened up on my cock and I throbbed Roman Candle bursts into that brown hole as I pressed into him. His hairy, scrawny ass flattened against my crotch and we were joined as tightly as two humans can be.

"A man's not a man till he's come in another man." said old Ike. "You made it, boy. But still, a man's not a man till he's had a hard cock poked up his ass at least once."

Every time I think of that scene, I get another hard-on. Then I remember the next day when old Ike returned the favor.

I never have managed to come that hard again. If only Ike were here.

Re:Clearly you're mistaken (4, Insightful)

G Fab (1142219) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527853)

While yeah, there are a ton of Apple fans out there that can take a bit too much pride in their machines, the fact is that this is somewhat unusual.

I've seen tons of mac laptops with cosmetic damage, but it's pretty rare that the operating system on a new mac is unreliable.

If this report represents a widespread issue, that's significant. And partly because macs are supposed to work without any problems. And frankly, there's no excuse for them not to. It's like that Halo 3 and the XBOX 360 lawsuit... it's all Microsoft, so there's no excuse for failure.

With my thinkpad, there are parts from several vendors interoperating and dealing with windows and ubuntu and even my playstation when I stream movies on TVersity.

With a mac, it's all Apple, all the time, so the operating system programmer has far less work to do... at least in my mind. Apple has a very interesting business model that ought to be reliable and usually is, so I think this incident somewhat shows why apple fans are so cocky (I'll stick with my thinkpad).

Re:Clearly you're mistaken (5, Interesting)

Daengbo (523424) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528171)

I think the current releases from three OS vendors suck right now: Vista, Leopard, and Gutsy. Being a full-time Gutsy user, I'm particularly hurt by that one, but not surprised. I said several times before it was released that it was going to suck more than Feisty, and it did. Canonical was trying to get everything unstable into Gutsy so that the bugs could be worked out for the long-term release. Wireless is broken (again) for many people on the same hardware that worked since Dapper. Enabling Compiz by default was a big mistake. Firefox is less stable. MEh.

At least Canonical has a reason for it to suck though: Microsoft and Apple intended to put out decent operating systems.

For the people I know:
  • Vista owners are installing XP,
  • Gutsy owners are installing Feisty, and now, apparently
  • Leopard owners are rolling back to Tiger.
It's a fucking banner year for the OS. I hope 2008 is better.

What will be interesting (1, Interesting)

Gr8Apes (679165) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527825)

is whether Apple will fix most of the issues with 10.5.1 and how long it will be until that's released as compared to Vista, and how long it will take MS to "fix" it.

Considering the levels of brokenness, this is merely a rant, as the summary correctly states.

Re:What will be interesting (-1, Flamebait)

toleraen (831634) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527873)

Well it's Apple, so they'll fix it in 10.6, and charge you $129 for it. Isn't that how they release all their other service packs?

Re:What will be interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528011)

Wasn't 95 Windows 4.0? Wasn't 98 Windows 4.1? Or was it Windows NT that was Windows 4.0? Any way about it, charging for incremental upgrades isn't just an Apple thing. It seems more rational to consider the 10.5.1 pack to be the Service Pack, and 10.6 to be the next version up, don't you think?

Or were you just trolling?

Re:What will be interesting (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528185)

It seems more rational to consider the 10.5.1 pack to be the Service Pack

Actually, it makes more sense to consider 10.5.1 the equilivent of a patch Tuesday in the Windows world.

Re:What will be interesting (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21527877)

is whether Apple will fix most of the issues with 10.5.1 and how long it will be until that's released as compared to Vista, and how long it will take MS to "fix" it. []

Re:What will be interesting (5, Interesting)

stuff-n-things (89988) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527905)

10.5.1 is out and it only fixed some of the issues I've had. I've found using OnyX to delete all caches (including the system cache) has helped, as in it's been 2 days since and hasn't crashed. But Leopard wasn't crashing every day or two, so only time will tell.

One thing I have noticed, the Intel systems I use crash (and have other bugs), but the PowerPC systems I have (including one at the very low end of Leopard supported systems) are stable. That was also reflected in the size of the 10.5.1 updates--the Intel update was over 150MB and the PowerPC update was about 35MB (IIRC the numbers, of course).

Re:What will be interesting (1)

SuperMog2002 (702837) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527917)

10.5.1 came out two weeks ago. Anecdotally, I've been running Leopard since 2 days after it came out, and the only time it's crashed on me was when one of my RAM chips (which had been having some trouble for a while) went out in the middle of loading a web page.

Re:What will be interesting (3, Interesting)

RobertM1968 (951074) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528075)

Well, to edify you...

10.5.1 is already released.

And my opinion on the author's rant...

Many of the author's points dont make any sense in comparison to MS and Vista. SP1 isn't due out (as of now) till Q1 2008... OSX's update is already out... don't see the similarity.

He also claims that MS "mostly" admitted to XP pre-SP1 crashing a lot - but that was after SP2 was released and they announced Vista... in my opinion, years later doesn't count as "admitting" anything (especially as their "admission" was more of an advertising tool touting how Vista would fix all the issues that XP had - as they do with every release). That's like the weatherman admitting they were wrong about it going to be sunny last Sunday - when instead it poured... gee thanks, we've known that for quite a while, and it's too little too late. So, I dont see the similarity between that and Apple's stance - which is to (far more quickly) release an update - AND admit to many of the issues, up front and quickly (see [] and [] ). So, where's the similarities? MS takes years to admit many major issues, months or over a year to release a questionable SP (SP1? c'mon... the SP needed an SP - namely SP1A)... and Apple admits to and attempts to fix the issues in a couple months...

Vista Similarity 2: Needless Graphics Glitz

Hmm... may be "needless" but people like them - when done right. Vista radically changed the interface in many areas, making things more confusing - while requiring most of a user's computing power to do so. OSX refined their user interface, and added to it in ways that didnt make doing simple things more confusing... and dont use nearly as much of the CPU/resources to do so... where is the similarities? And in the case of consistency between various parts of the OS or programs, neither is perfect, but OSX is light-years ahead.

Vista Similarity 3: Pointless User Interface "Fixes"

Then there's how Microsoft screwed up Vista's UI, reorganizing things that didn't need to be reorganized--like the networking screens... Under XP you can get to those with a single right-click on the desktop. Under Vista, it's three layers down for no good reason...

...Not to be left behind, Apple has messed up its own UI, too, but Apple did it with piles of senseless graphics enhancements.

So, MS totally messed up the Vista interface, made it more complex to interact with, and made it more confusing... Apple added graphics to make it prettier (which Vista is just as guilty of). How is there a similarity between trying to make an interface prettier by totally messing it up and making it more difficult and complex - or making an interface prettier?

Vista Similarity 4: Nuked Networking

Ummm... yeah... I see that similarity... with Vista users gotta wait till Q1-2008 (maybe) for a fix (maybe - doubtfully on some issues since it is due to components of the DRM).... compared to a sercurity/networking fix already being out for OSX Leopard.

Where is the similarity? That they both had networking issues? Neither were apparently secure out of the box - but Vista (for various reasons) dragged down network performance to boot - and made network operations more difficult... while Apple quickly dealt with (and admitted to) their networking issues.

Vista Similarity 5: Bundled Apps as New Features That Suck

Ummm... at least most of the apps that come with OSX are somewhat useful and will get used... unlike what comes on a Vista machine.

But in MS's defense, much of the crapware is installed by the computer OEM - not by MS.

Pointing out Leopard's deficiencies is one thing... yeah, it seems to have quite a few (though at least Apple admits to and deals with them quicker)... but comparing those deficiencies to Vista's deficiencies in those areas is like comparing a car with a blown engine to a car with a flat - yeah, neither may run... but the problems aren't very similar beyond that.

Re:What will be interesting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528147)

Umm Vista doesn't crash. JAVA on vista sometimes crashes and takes internet explorer with it. but that's the extent of it. In fact, everything on the laptop, from media center extender to every facet and variation of hibernation and sleep, to quickplay, media player, and media center work perfectly together. Supposedly there's a reoccuring issue with the soundcard driver, but I've never had a single problem. The worst thing about it is software occasionally demands that one log in to an account with administrative authority to install. Which, to be frank, is a problem with the software, not the os.

Re:What will be interesting (1)

RodesNet (1196321) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528151)

This looks remarkably similar to another article [] posted a few weeks ago. The clash of these titans will never end.

Obvious (3, Insightful)

rm999 (775449) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527827)

Apple and Microsoft display the same pattern - their products resembles beta for the first few months, and only become mature after a few years. Happened with the iPod, and all successful versions of Windows.

I never upgrade until the widespread opinion is the product is mature...

Re:Obvious (1, Insightful)

mmarlett (520340) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527901)

Pattern, maybe. But timetable, no.

Vista release: Jan. 30, 2007. Vista SP1 release date: ... uh, you can get the beta.

Leopard (10.5) release: Oct. 26, 2007. Leopard 10.5.1 release date: Nov. 15, 2007.

Sit around and bitch about new software having unfound bugs if you want, but don't compare Apples to ... well, whatever.

Re:Obvious (5, Informative)

McFadden (809368) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528041)

Vista release: Jan. 30, 2007. Vista SP1 release date: ... uh, you can get the beta.
Leopard (10.5) release: Oct. 26, 2007. Leopard 10.5.1 release date: Nov. 15, 2007.
but don't compare Apples to ... well, whatever.
Well at least you're own advice and not comparing apples to whatever...

Apple incremental 10.5.x updates aren't even in the same ballpark as Microsoft service packs. 10.5.1 is more easily compared to Windows update or patch Tuesday when Microsoft roll out a bunch of changes. And as someone who uses Vista and Leopard (dual boot Mac Pro) I can assure you the Vista updates have been coming just as thick and fast. I have no allegiance to Bill or Steve, and I'm a reasonably satisfied customer of both their products (Vista isn't nearly bad as most people who've never even used it would have you believe), but if you want to mindlessly bash Microsoft, at least make sure you're not basing your argument on a complete fallacy.

Re:Obvious (1)

explosivejared (1186049) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527929)

I never upgrade until the widespread opinion is the product is mature...
Apple users expect Apple products to be mature immediately, which is impossible. There tends to be a much shorter memory about Apple's tribulations then there are with Windows, so it just becomes commonplace to expect maturity with betas and all. Remember the story about how everyone freaked over the bootcamp beta going haywire, after Apple had dropped support for it.

There ARE people that enjoy beta-testing... (1)

grantek (979387) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528007)

...unfortunately Apple doesn't have an "OSX sid" that you can track for free if you want this stuff :)

Re:Obvious (4, Funny)

ludomancer (921940) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528153)

Wow man! You're just like me! I never thought I'd find another Win98SE user out there!

is this news? (-1, Troll)

bob12 (34503) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527829)

im not surprised to see an article like this from pc ragazine. m$ shill mag spectacularrrrr

Wow... (0, Flamebait)

Draconix (653959) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527837)

So, is this "Oliver Rist" a new pseudonym of John Dvorak's, or did PC Magazine manage to find someone else just as whiny?

Re:Wow... (1)

cacepi (100373) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527939)

I think it's actually Cousin Oliver from the Brady Bunch. Nobody liked him, either...

Re:Wow... (1)

paisleyboxers (540253) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527941)

Dvorak is Funny though! He's old and cranky.. and hilarious.

Re:Wow... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528027)

Heh, that's funny, pointing fingers at something as being too whiny, from Slashdot of all places! What's next, someone on DailyKos complaining about another site being too angry and crazy?

Re:Wow... (1)

happyemoticon (543015) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528131)

It's not the whininess that bugs me, it's the glaring lack of content. There's just not a lot there, and what is there isn't concrete enough to build an article on. It reads like an IM conversation.

Re:Wow... (1)

slntnsnty (90352) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528163)

Looks like fish, smells like fish, tastes like...

Maybe it's a relative. Nepotism ftw.

One thing that helps (0, Troll)

Paktu (1103861) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527839)

Even assuming that Leopard is just as much of a lemon as Vista (which I find hard to believe), Apple will have a new version out in, what, six months? Vista on the other hand spent more than half a decade in development and its successor is planned for (maybe) 2009.

Re:One thing that helps (1)

Gr8Apes (679165) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527869)

And it's successor is doomed to be merely reheated Vista leftovers and low-hanging fruit of Panther/Tiger, from the wishlist posted here last week.

Another Perspective (5, Interesting)

Alexx K (1167919) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527841)

I am blind and use a screen reader, and I find Leopard's screen reader, Voiceover, will randomly freeze for a couple of seconds when browsing web pages. It is extremely annoying, but not as annoying as the extremely clunky keyboard interface. Hardly anything is automatically read, you have to use the shitty keyboard interface to find everything.

Like Microsoft, Apple claims their half-assed screen reader has improved. Like Microsoft, they've hardly done anything.

NOTE: I don't actually own a Mac, but I have an Apple fanboy friend who owns a Macbook with Leopard.

Re:Another Perspective (4, Interesting)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527973)

My experience I find that Most blind users prefer Linux, or other form of Unix which allows a good command line interface. I am not sure why Apple or Microsoft even really try I can only imagine a windowed interface to be extremely clumsy for a blind user. Even with speech interface.

Re:Another Perspective (0, Troll)

CmdrNachos (1156063) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528091)

There must be, what, 2 blind linux users?

Re:Another Perspective (3, Interesting)

Alexx K (1167919) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528099)

You do have a point there. However, there are instances when I'd like using a GUI for tasks such as spreadsheets, word processing, and web browsing (Lynx doesn't cut it for me). Unfortunately, access to GUI's under Linux/Unix is still pretty new, and currently, one only has access to the Gnome desktop.

Re:Another Perspective (1)

SteeldrivingJon (842919) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527977)

Well, Apple did add the new voice that sounds more realistic.

Re:Another Perspective (5, Informative)

Alexx K (1167919) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528053)

Well, so did Microsoft. The thing is, to a blind person, it's not all about the sound of the voice.

These so-called naturall-sounding voices, well, they dont' sound natural to me. They are filled with digital artifacts, and the inflection is all wrong.

But the biggest disadvantage of these voices is that they break down at high speeds. The more robotic voices, although they don't at all have human intonations, have superior pronounciation, understandability, and I can understand them as high as 400 WPM. You can't do that with the human-sounding voices, if they will even let you go that high (Most have a low speed threshold).

Re:Another Perspective (-1, Troll)

Brian Gordon (987471) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527989)

It makes me sick to think of people trying to use computers verbally, and to see the government forcing websites to be "accessable". Computers are not made for blind people! It is impossible! Don't complain when a terrible idea fails!

Re:Another Perspective (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528057)

Here's me wishing you become blind in the near future.

Re:Another Perspective (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528129)

That can easily be arranged for a small fee.

Re:Another Perspective (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528097)

Computers can be good but unfortunately the blind person needs reduced functionality. Using Lynx, and command line OS's usually give them the best interface. The problem with the government accessibility guidelines is that it sets developers back 10 years in what we can do, and still the webpage will operate very poorly to blind users. I had to write an intranet program for a government agency there is one blind person in the agency. The program is for reserving fleet cars, which blind people cannon drive so no use in having them reserve them... While the application works, it is kinda poky and they go can't you make it go faster. I go yes I can, but I will end up breaking the disability guidelines. It is not that I am unsympathetic to the disabled users. but the PC environment makes it so everyone has to suffer because there is a true minority will be at a disatvantage... The money we save from not using the guidelines we could hire secretaries for the disabled people to help them with the work.

Re:Another Perspective (1)

Alexx K (1167919) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528173)

The guidelines set you back ten years? I don't understand. Following guidelines, you can have accessible frames, tables, graphics, imagemaps, and JavaScript applets. Even Flash objects can be made accessible!

The only problem is, there are some screen reader manufacturers that care more about cash than customers.

Re:Another Perspective (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528203)

A good friend of mine has a visually challenged wife.

She switched to Mac specifically because she liked the improved voices in Leopard.

Somehow I'm guessing that your friend's computer wasn't configured correctly, with all the accessibility features tweaked to the right settings.

Flamebait (1)

eggman9713 (714915) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527845)

This whole rant reeks of a troll. It is just one user's experience. And he seems to have the delusion that Apple is perfect. Nothing is perfect. And comparing it to Vista is just further trolling IMHO. It's like saying Ford sucks because they have the same problems as Chevy and Chevy sucks.

Is Objective-C 2.0 to blame? (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21527849)

Since starting to use it, I've had a lot of problems with it, too.

When it comes to applications, Firefox crashes for no apparent reason. I thought it might have been due to Flash, but it has crashed even on pages without any Flash. And it works fine for other Flash-based apps. This didn't happen on Tiger.

I've also had Finder just freeze at times. Again, this is something that never happened with Tiger, or even Mac OS 9 for that matter.

The few times I've used bash at the terminal, it has core dumped on me. Yes, the shell is dumping core. Something about free()'ing already-freed memory.

Maybe this has something to do with the new features of Objective-C 2.0? I heard from some friends that a lot of Apple's code was rewritten to use the new features. I don't know if this is true or not, but maybe it could explain why the stability we've come to expect from Tiger just isn't there with Leopard? I mean, so many new language features will take a long time to stabilize. So maybe they shouldn't have been used for such core functionality, if that is indeed the case?

Re:Is Objective-C 2.0 to blame? (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527915)

The biggest change in objective C 2.0 is garbage collection.

Re:Is Objective-C 2.0 to blame? (1)

metamatic (202216) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527925)

Firefox is not written in Objective-C. Neither is the shell.

So no, your crashes have nothing to do with Objectice-C 2.0.

Personally, I've had no significant issues with Leopard.

Not a problem here (5, Insightful)

skingers6894 (816110) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527851)

Upgraded from Tiger - in place upgrade.

Not a single crash.

Upgraded to 10.5.1 - still all good.

But I'm just one guy - and come to think of it - so is this guy.

Re:Not a problem here (3, Interesting)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528039)

Same here. Leopard has run fine. The worst that happened was that I had to update a couple piece of software, which is to be expected.

That being said, I've seen some real doozies come through the computer shop where I work. Most can be fixed with an Archive & Install, but some are ugly ones that I still can't figure out, like one new iMac that utterly refuses to launch iWork no matter what I do.

Re:Not a problem here (1)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528069)

In addition, I'd like to add that while Leopard has been a pain in the ass on occasions, I'll take it over Vista any day of the week and then some.

Re:Not a problem here (2, Interesting)

Crypto Gnome (651401) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528133)

Hear Hear!

Mee Too!
  • Apple MAC PRO 3.0GHz with 8GB RAM
  • 2 x 300GB internal rives
  • 4 x500GB drives in an External Case
  • on a RocketRAID 2322 eSATA RAID card (needed Leopard-ready drives, after the release)
I use:
  • Aperture
  • Firefox
  • iTunes
  • Google Earth
  • Adobe Photoshop
  • a handful of minor non-Apple programs (Synergy, Skype, Adium, etc)
  • SuperDuper (which is cool, and low-level enough that it might break stuff, but it doesn't support the new cat so I will not run it until there's an update released)
So admittedly I'm not stressing my machine with "low level" programs that do weird and wonderful things (eg no odd "system drivers", magic background scripting tools, etc).

But still, my machine has been totally rock solid even after I "just upgraded" to Leopard. Ditto applying 10.5.1 .... 100% absolutely no problems (once HighPoint delivered drivers for Leopard that worked, and even then the system was fine, just refused to mount the external drive. No instability, and no data was lost.

Anecdotal evidence is worthless (5, Informative)

Solra Bizna (716281) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527857)

I have been using Leopard since 12 hours before it was officially released. I have had two kernel panics. Both panics were my fault. (As in I explicitly loaded a kernel extension that caused the crash. Both times.)

Three or four of my friends have been using Leopard since it came out and have had no crashes at all.

My whole family's been on Leopard since it came out and has also had no crashes at all.



No, it's not (2, Insightful)

dedazo (737510) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527881)

Not when it's about how Vista crashes every five minutes. That's valuable anecdotal evidence.

Never crashed for me either, but what do I know.

Re:Anecdotal evidence is worthless (1)

Aetuneo (1130295) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528033)

I have a friend who uses Leopard. Once, shortly after he got it, it crashed, for no apparent reason. This is opposed to no crashes I have seen on Linux, no crashes on whatever version came before Leopard (which I've used, and seen used, a lot more frequently), and no crashes in the maybe three hours which I have been able to observe a Vista system. Anecdotal evidence may be useless, but my opinion is that no OS other than Linux is stable enough for me, and I will act on that opinion.
That's really what matters: the opinions of the users. It doesn't matter if an opinion is false, or not entirely accurate. What matters is that someone has that opinion.

Is this idiot for real? (5, Informative)

atari2600 (545988) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527859)

I was amused and delighted by the article (given my dislike for fanbois and Mac fanbois in general) but i stopped at the following part in the article:

XP Pro pre-SP1 crashed all the time, and Microsoft owned up to it--mostly. XP Pro post-SP2 crashed once in a while, and we sighed and kept working while Microsoft looked embarrassed and yelled at someone to work faster on SP3

Now (at work) i have 4 Linux boxes, 1 Solaris workstation and a windows XP machine that i no longer use actively (keep it around for compatibility tests). However i've used XP since it came out in 2000. It didn't crash always pre-SP1, it didn't crash frequently post XP-SP1 and after XP SP2, i've had the box be up for 180 days before i had to power it down for a memory upgrade and then the box was up for 328 days before i moved offices. I am all for Vista bashing - i am all for Mac bashing and once in a while Linux as a desktop smacking but that section above there makes him lose all credibility.

All i can tell him is L2UseAComputer, tard. Mod me down but you know there's truth in this post.

Re:Is this idiot for real? (1)

atari2600 (545988) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527887)

Well the post should read beta in 2000 but even as a beta, XP didn't crash ALWAYS. Longhorn beta builds on the other hand were a nightmare.

Re:Is this idiot for real? (1)

Brian Gordon (987471) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528013)

No, this section makes him lose all credibility:

Plug into an Apple network--you're good to go. Plug into a Windows network--you're good to go. Plug into any IP-based mixed-client network--you're good to go.
I'll let anyone with a clue mod me insightful. All the grandpas who buy into this marketing garbage can go back to reading PC World.

Re:Is this idiot for real? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528049)

what's a crash? pre-sp1 xp crashed all the time. my friends were all gamers, i was their support.

i finally clued them into the fact that the blip+restart in fact, is the operating system crashing.

i rarely see xp crash in the last 4 years. but it did crash a lot in the beginning, and they were very clever in getting the memorable blue screen of death. a blip. blackness, and then the machine is booting up.

by the time the user figured out what happened, they were back in to their system, and poking around. the mysterious reboot quickly being forgotten.

i saw this at the corporate level as well for the foolish few that rolled out xp right after it came out (yes there were a few companies that i contracted for that were that stupid).

so while i don't have a scientific sampling size, it certainly beats your sample size of 1.

p.s. i have 2 real macs, a quadra 950, and an se/30, several athlon based hackintoshes, a decstation running linux, an ultra60 triple booting solaris 9/10 & linux, i have countless intel compatibles running everything from freebsd to slackeware, to ubuntu.

and those are just my home systems.

i've worked in a dozen or more IT shops over 15 years, in companies with as few as 600 nodes, to 15,000 nodes.

at work i have no less then 10 machines that i have in some state of experimentation.

anyway, i think your credentials and your opinion are a bit of dog's breakfast.

it's shite.

you should be modded into the ground.

Re:Is this idiot for real? (4, Insightful)

Phat_Tony (661117) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528121)

I see. Because you had a computer running the very same operating system that this guy was running, and your computer didn't crash, then you know that there's something wrong with him personally, or he's lying, if he said his computer did crash.

When I upgrade to Leopard, if it doesn't crash, then I'll know this guy is a loser, because us 1337 Slashdot users know that there couldn't be any differences in the hardware or software or use that could cause one computer to crash and another to be stable when they're both running the same operating system.

Re:Is this idiot for real? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528145)

i've used XP since it came out in 2000.
pretty fucking amazing since it came out in 2001, you goddamn lying faggot

Hardware issue, probably (1)

tentimestwenty (693290) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528149)

OS X rarely has kernel panics and 99% of the time they are related to:

1.) failing hardware/RAM
2.) bizarre, hack or beta software
The only kernel panic I've had since the original version of OS X was from an old iMac with a failing logic board. I'm still running old versions of Office and many other programs that I never bothered to upgrade because to my surprise they keep working perfectly fine even under Leopard. This guy is totally out to lunch.

Rather unfortunate... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21527865)

Given Apples current advertising campaign.

Because PC Magazine is an authority? (2, Insightful)

wuputah (1068216) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527875)

I have Leopard on several systems and know of several others running Leopard, and other than Apple-acknowledged installation issues on one system, it has been a trouble-free experience. I did not have any serious issues with 10.5.0, but I didn't have much time to run that before 10.5.1 came out.

My guess is that this PC Magazine guy is running some piece of software that's causing his system to go nuts. I have done this myself in the past. After a few crashes, I looked at the kernel log and it was a 3rd-partybeta mouse driver I had installed. I got rid of it and my system was golden.

Some of his other points are fine. I don't think the new features are particularly fantastic. I didn't think so with Tiger either. But I don't think this is an alarm-raising Vista-level catastrophe.

Re:Because PC Magazine is an authority? (1)

Thrudheim (910314) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528061)

Same here. I've got three machines running Leopard smoothly. He, being a computer geek, probably installed all kinds of crap. Just needs to find the offender and get rid of it.

Re:Because PC Magazine is an authority? (0)

Frankie70 (803801) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528201)

My guess is that this PC Magazine guy is running some piece of software that's causing his system to go nuts. I have done this myself in the past. After a few crashes, I looked at the kernel log and it was a 3rd-partybeta mouse driver I had installed. I got rid of it and my system was golden.

Wonder why this similiar excuse isn't good enough for Windows BSOD which are mostly caused by 3rd party drivers.

as an apple user... (5, Interesting)

datapharmer (1099455) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527885)

I concur. Leopard has SERIOUS problems. It is more than a "point upgrade"as the author states and has some nice new features and enhancements, but firewall breaks all sorts of things abd is as annoying as the Vista mother-may-I prompts giving warnings even after applications have been placed on the white list. DHCP doesn't acquire addresses properly and firewall must be disabled, airport turned off then back on for it to work again.

I've had 2 kernel panics in 2 days (I never experienced a kernel panic under tiger). I have also had the OS go unstable and Finder et al will crash randomly until restart. Final Cut Pro 6.0 crashes all the time doing things as simple moving the timeline. Spotlight crashes and reloads while doing searches sometimes.

Disk Utility can't repair disk permissions or recognizes them as incorrect when they are not (not sure which).

Java is completely screwed! No java 6 yet and javascript commands in safari do bizarre things sometimes like launching outside applications such as finder instead of doing what they are intended to do within the application!

Apple has some serious work to do if they want to keep Leopard installed on users' machines - and they had better do it fast!

Re:as an apple user... (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528023)

Try this...
Power on hold Command-s
once at the prompt do the fsck -fy


That may fix the problem.

also if you upgraded or did a clean install. I found problems with upgrade where my system was ultra slow then it finally couldn't read my file-vault disk. Being that all my important information was there where no hope of return I did a Clean Install and it actually ran snappy. Although I had to dig threw backups to get my important files back.

Re:as an apple user... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528025)

I have not had any major problems. I've upgraded to Leopard on a Macbook Pro and Power Mac G5. Easiest upgrade I have ever done. Just my experience.

Re:as an apple user... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528043)

There is a solution to your problems. Install a more stable and universally compatible OS such as Microsoft Windows XP SP2 or Microsoft Windows Vista.

Re:as an apple user... (5, Insightful)

CatOne (655161) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528159)

Okay, so to address your points in order:

* Yes, Leopard *is* more than a point upgrade. It's a major upgrade. Don't get caught up on the numbering... there are BIG changes under the hood between 10.4 and 10.5. As there were between 10.4 and 10.3. A "point" upgrade is 10.4.3 to 10.4.4. I don't have any crashes with Spotlight but I haven't installed FC Studio 6 yet. Even if I did, I couldn't give it a fair shake as I'm not a video editor.

* The GUI for the Firewall is totally different than it was in Tiger. And it's really confusing. What's goofy is the Firewall GUI in Leopard is for the *application* firewall, which is completely new, and which does some stuff based on application signatures. It has no control whatsoever on the ports-based firewall, IPFW. IPFW still actually exists and be configured using ipfw rules if you're so inclined (it's straightforward, but non-trivial for those who aren't command-line fans and who don't want to learn about ports, port state, in/out, and UDP versus TCP). This change is very poorly documented. IMO you should leave the firewall GUI off for now.

* Disk Utilitiy can and does repair permissions. There are a couple applications and things it's not fixing right now, but this is a very small percentage (probably 0.5%) of things. And it's really not much to worry about. The silly thing is that Mac users have come to see "Repair Permissions" as a magic bullet and it's really not. It doesn't fix all that many things, but this is a case of religion (or voodoo).

* Java isn't screwed, but true you're limited to Java 5 (er, 1.5) for now. How many things do you do which are actually Java 6 only commands? Most apps I use still use 1.3 and *maybe* 1.4.

Sure, there are bugs. Sure, it's not perfect. But it's 10.5.1. These things take some time, as the betas are tested by tens of thousands, and the GMs are used by millions (soon enough, tens of millions). They'll get fixed, but if you aren't prepared for a couple inconveniences it's ill advised to upgrade to an OS in the first few days or even weeks of its release. It's called "the bleeding edge" for a reason.

Also perhaps you didn't install 10.4.0. It had similar issues.

Problem with his computer. (0, Troll)

mc moss (1163007) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527891)

The kernel panics are problems specific to his computer. The majority of macs don't have that problems so he should quit whining to us and talk to Apple. As for the other things he complains about, those are really cosmetic changes that some people like and others don't. The problems with Vista are more than just cosmetic. Unlike Vista, Leopard doesn't require 512 mb of ram to run all of it's features and still runner slow than the previous os. People aren't still running out and buying 10.4 instead of 10.5 in droves as they would buy xp over vista. Also compare the retail price (129-leopard, 200+ for all the different vistas).

Re:Problem with his computer. (4, Informative)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528071)

To all of the things you mentioned, the key word is yet. If Leopard is going to do as poorly as Vista (I don't use Macs, I can make no value judgement of it one way or the other), it's had nowhere near as long to build up an image of suck in people's minds. You're being unreasonable in saying that Leopard's lack of backlash proves a damn thing... there hasn't been enough time for any sort of real backlash to build up.

For the record, as long as I'm at it, I can just as easily say that people's Vista problems are specific to their machines, because I use Vista, and it runs like a dream. Stable, runs all my apps/games (except KOTOR) properly... nothing more to ask, really. And no, it doesn't run slower than Windows XP. There are other very satisfied Vista users, they've even posted on slashdot. So clearly, the people who are having problems are just having issues with their specific computers.

One man's opinion (3, Informative)

dancingmad (128588) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527893)

Normally I don't reply to these kind of articles, as they tend to be obvious flame bait, but the whole PC Mag article seems very anecdotal. As far as my own experience is concerned, upgrading to Leopard was the easiest OS upgrade I've ever done and I've had pretty much no issues since I upgraded. I've never had the machine crash or freeze.

The only real nitpicks I have with Leopard are that the UI occasionally seems slower and some of the UI choices are baffling (the menu bar can be grody with some wallpapers, I ended up switching off the dock shelf, and the folder icons are a huge step backwards) and even those nitpicks are worth it to get a UI that is otherwise relatively clean and consistent (under Tiger I was using a UI called Uno. Before upgrading, I uninstalled it, and Tiger's UI is really grating).

I'm using Leopard right now (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21527911)

And it never cras

Re:I'm using Leopard right now (1)

chubs730 (1095151) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527965)

very original

Re:I'm using Leopard right now (1)

Frankie70 (803801) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528175)

I'm using Leopard right now And it never cras

Before Leopard crashed, it managed to click on
the submit button for you, but unfortunately couldn't
type the 'h' before clicking the submit button. Maybe
Cougar (or whatever is the next release) will fix that.

Funny, I'm using Vista now... (1)

hey! (33014) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528193)

and it's always crass.

Issues with Leopard (1)

crumbz (41803) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527923)

I have had Leopard installed for about a month and a half on my G4 1.5GHz Power Book. No problems, not a single lock-up. I upgraded from 10.3.9 and Leopard runs just about as fast, with some apps loading and running a bit faster. I upgraded mid-semester and was admittedly concerned about running 10.5.0 version of the OS (now 10.5.1) but now I am completely comfortable with the stability. From work and personal experience, to compare the stability of a version upgrade of Apple's OSX to an upgrade from any of the following: 3.11 to Win 95 to Win 98 to Win 2000 to XP, with a side track down the WinNT route (the best experience by far) is simply fallacious. No comparison, and that is why my mission critical apps a run on Unix, ala OSX.
My two cents, of course.

Time will cure all wounds (3, Interesting)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527927)

Some Differences as well.
Vista was Years Late Leopard was Months Late.
Vista had these problem for almost a year now. Leopard has only been out for a month

Yes Leopard isn't as Bullet proof and free of problems as Apple admits. I had a failed upgrade where I needed to erase my disk clean to get it to work. And after that I still have some minor problems... But the problems are minor and they remind me of an older version of the OS... Codename Tiger. Yes when Tiger was released it had a slew of minor glitches and bugs just like Leopard did.

When Tiger was released Apple was still using Power PC Processors, By the time Intel Systems were released and huge amounts of people were migrating to Apple Tiger was Well in the Mid Cycle where most of glitches were cleared. So most people are use to the solid Mid-Cycle OS. But Tiger had a bunch of glitches, also Panther, Jaguar. When they were in the early Pre 10.x.4 release. It happens in early releases. Similar things happen in Linux too, but the Linux Zealots minimize it just like the Apple Fan Boys do. Stating it is the problem with 3rd party software or there are super simple workaround, etc...

Also there is the issue of the greater number of Mac Users, just the fact that more people are using the OS there is more bugs that are found by users who don't know to fix them. For example I had to hard reboot my Mac this week because of some glitch with Parallels, Going to sleep in middle of a disk write on a USB disk, While asleep the USB Disk was unplugged and when it returned it didn't want to completely wakeup like the program was trying to write to the disk (this may have happened in Tiger too, I was doing something I rarely do). But what happened was the disk got corrupted so things were running poorly. So I rebooted in Single user mode and did an fsck on my disk and fix the problems. Easy for a Unix/Linux/Mac Expert. But if they are a newbie use to using windows this would cause them to reinstall the OS. Many of the people using the older versions of OS X where Well experienced with Macs, and a lot of the Newcomers in the PPC days were people converting from Linux to Macs. Today Macs have a wide base not at all prepared for handling new version bugs.

Things are not as bleak as Vista is, it is actually normal stuff. We just have forgotten it over time.

All I can say is... (2)

greenguy (162630) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527945)

...Ubuntu is looking better all the time. On seven machines over three years, it's crashed once on me. And I'm pretty sure that was a hardware thing.

Re:All I can say is... (1)

falcon5768 (629591) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528015)

most OS X issues tend to be hardware related, or very poorly written software. I have almost never hit a snag that was cause by Apple themselves.

No (1)

scifi451 (758539) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527947)

I have had Leopord installed since it came out and maybe once have had the grey screen of death or what ever you want to call it. So not a universal problem.

And Microsoft always admits problems? (0, Redundant)

edwardpickman (965122) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527957)

Remember Microsoft actually advertised an OS crashing less than the previous version. I didn't dive into Leopard because I wanted to give it a change to settle in. Apple has a good track record in recent years but they've had a stumbles in the past. I'd be curious if the problems were on all versions or just upgrades? Leopard has some fundimental changes so it's not entirely surprising there are some stability issues. I've got to wait until my current project is done anyway so they have three or four months to shake out the problems before I have to worry. On my Windows machines crashes are a daily occurance on good days so half a dozen crashes doesn't exactly scare me.

Leopard finally stabilized on my MacBook Pro 2.4G (1)

marsipan (641873) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527963)

I experienced some bad crashes under Leopard in my first week after upgrade, including: keyboard hangs [] & crazy jumping pointer [] but after the 10.5.1 update & a good old-fashioned PRAM reset, it's been stable for at least a week! uptime 21:30 up 8 days, 4:49, 3 users, load averages: 0.16 0.22 0.24

I might be missing something.... (1)

8127972 (73495) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527981)

... But I simply don't see parents confronting Jobs they way that Ballmer was confronted at Gartner [] recently. Plus Pretty much every review on Leopard that I've read seems to be positive (more or less). I also did a quick Google Search using the terms "Leopard Problems" and came up with this list [] where most of these have solutions (unlike some of Vista's issues).

I say the article is FUD. Maybe John Hodgman paid him?

Similar Issues (2, Informative)

Nutsquasher (543657) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527987)

I've had similar experiences with Leopard and 3rd party apps. Specifically, Parallels had substantial issues (build 5160). Their latest beta (build 5570 - [] ) appears to have fixed issues I've had with kernel panics, related to Parallels.

Their developers noted that Apple made substantial changes to Leopard between Release Candidate and Final. A number of other apps I had broke, though most were patched within about 1-2 weeks.

The following crash has happened three times since installing Leopard. It appears to be a Wireless driver issue, and appears to occur at random. There's an Apple thread about this ( Anyone have a clue as to what's going on? Could this be Parallels related, even though it occurs when Parallels isn't even running?

Fri Nov 23 19:14:00 2007
panic(cpu 0 caller 0x0039CD77): "m_free: freeing an already freed mbuf"@/SourceCache/xnu/xnu-1228.0.2/bsd/kern/uipc_mbuf.c:2742
Backtrace, Format - Frame : Return Address (4 potential args on stack)
0x3422f978 : 0x12b0e1 (0x455670 0x3422f9ac 0x133238 0x0)
0x3422f9c8 : 0x39cd77 (0x48e03c 0x30141200 0x8594fe0 0x1)
0x3422fa08 : 0x39d073 (0x300cd000 0x8 0x3422fa58 0x1)
0x3422fa28 : 0x8f9b87 (0x301b1000 0x0 0x20 0x2)
0x3422fb98 : 0x8f9ec5 (0x23a782c8 0x23a7a150 0x3422fbc8 0x1a6d13)
0x3422fce8 : 0x90520b (0x23b71004 0x0 0x46 0xbf4b40)
0x3422fe68 : 0x8d584a (0x23a784c0 0x0 0x4203 0x49f76d0)
0x3422feb8 : 0x8d6f3f (0x95dc80 0x95dc84 0x49f76b0 0x135e09)
0x3422ff48 : 0x8d54b7 (0x42d4804 0x0 0x1361b0 0x19ccc1)
0x3422ff78 : 0x13e987 (0x42d4c94 0x42d4804 0x1a136f 0x58e46b0)
0x3422ffc8 : 0x19e2ec (0x0 0x0 0x1a10b5 0x49f76b0)
Backtrace terminated-invalid frame pointer 0
            Kernel loadable modules in backtrace (with dependencies):

BSD process name corresponding to current thread: kernel_task

Mac OS version:

Kernel version:
Darwin Kernel Version 9.1.0: Wed Oct 31 17:46:22 PDT 2007; root:xnu-1228.0.2~1/RELEASE_I386
System model name: MacBookPro2,2 (Mac-F42187C8)

I mean, they can talk (1)

kramulous (977841) | more than 6 years ago | (#21527993)

Pretty rich coming from these guys. I go to click to play the video and I get ye olde' "HTTP/1.1 404 Object Not Found"

they hosed the interface (3, Informative)

acvh (120205) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528017)

I've been using OS X since the .0 release, and this is the first time that I regret an upgrade. They made many little changes to little things that drive me crazy. Moving menu items just because they can, redesigning icons to be unreadable, adding features that are useless, etc.

I have had the feeling that Apple went a little Microsoft with Leopard.

Agree and disagree (1, Insightful)

duffbeer703 (177751) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528045)

Leopard has alot of issues, but they are all quality control issues that will eventually get fixed. Apple frankly took on more than it can chew in terms of workload, and it shows. Advertised features like AD integration are just broken, upgrades are hit and miss and there are some really nasty bugs like the Finder issues.

That said, those issues will be gone in 6 months.

Vista's issues are architectural -- they made bad design decisions that make it really, really difficult for business users to migrate. Even Microsoft reps aren't excited about Vista.

Am I that rare? Leopard user with 0 problems (2, Informative)

log0n (18224) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528065)

Macbook Pro 17 (2.33 C2D) with
Vista (160GB internal)
Leopard (500GB external FW800)
3 additional external USB Drives (~ 1TB of space)
1 USB DVD burner

I've never had a crash, all of my software has worked perfectly. Of course, I did do a fresh install and selectively moved my old programs back - rather than an Upgrade. 0 problems.

Oblig. Douglas Adams... (1)

Viceroy Potatohead (954845) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528081)

If you had done your homework, you would have known this, having read the "Beware of the Leopard" sign in the basement of the planning office. Please don't make the same mistake with Microsoft Krikkit.

You've been warned.

they even forgot to test it on their own hardware. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528093)

My friend wasn't very happy when he had to return his hard drive, and then find out a month later that it was because of installing Leotard: []

My experience (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528095)

Since this is all about our individual experiences with Leopard, I thought I'd add mine here.

1. Installed 1 week after release.
2. No kernel panics or crashes.
3. No other reliability or performance issues.
4. Works great for me.

I don't have any experience with Vista. Maybe some Vista users can add their comments here too.

Leopard = Vista (1)

trouser (149900) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528113)

I can prove this. Using science. Not actual science in the scientific sense but that other science, like when those Jesus freaks tell you the world was created on a Tuesday afternoon in late April, 3012 BC and is held together with sticky tape and toenail clippings. Why do you think Apple switched to Intel? So they could re-skin Vista and pass it off as an operating system in great cat's clothing. Damn cats. Did you ever see that movie The Puma Man [] ? That guy with the powers of a puma which curiously included flying, teleportation and sensing imminent danger. Well Vista/Leopard is just like that, only a little buggy and not so popular with the punters. That's all I have to say on the matter.

That's like asking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528115)

"Is Cthillary the new David Lee Roth?"

Eh what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528123)

Been running 10.5.n for a couple of weeks, no issues.

This article is more than a bit flawed. (5, Insightful)

mosch (204) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528125)

In my experience nearly everybody who complains about Leopard being unstable is running some sort of unsanity app (or the logitech drivers). Nobody else really has a problem.

As for the rest of his article, it seems pretty bullshit to me.

Vista Similarity #1: He claims that it's unstable. Most people disagree, a small but extremely vocal group agrees.

Vista Similarity #2: He whines about graphics overload, but then references things that work on even ancient low-end Macs with shitty graphic cards, and claims that everybody is showing them off. I don't think they are.

Vista Similarity #3: He tries to draw equivalence between putting basic network settings three menus deep and Apple deciding that if the dock is on the bottom, that it should have a subtle reflection. Then he complains Apple's new "Cover Flow" is good enough for him, and thus Quick Look was unnecessary. Perhaps he could try not using it, then. To each their own, y'know.

Vista Similarity #4: He claims that Leopard drops packets and loses connections. I have a bunch of Leopard machines on both wired and wireless networks and have seen absolutely no evidence that this is true. He also claims that SMB shares come and go. Again, I'm on networks with SMB shares and have seen absolutely no evidence that this is true.

Vista Similarity #5: He tries to claim that time machine is awful, because it does file-level, not block-level incrementals, it doesn't work on network shares by default, and it defaults to backing up the whole system. Time Machine could use improvement, but it's useful and it will get a *lot* of people backing up their machines for the first time in forever.

Honestly, #5 is the only complaint that has any air of authenticity to me (I've had similar complaints), but it's not like it's a horrific detriment.

There are two options here:
Option 1) This is Ziff-Davis MSFT flamebait.
Option 2) The author of the piece is an idiotic fuck who screwed up his install.

My money is on Both.

What a load of shit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528127)

Leopard has been rock solid on 2 of my Macs. I am testing them thoroughly so I can upgrade all my production machines. Sure, there are minor bugs which I could do without, and visual atrocities such as the Dock and translucent menu bar, but functionality-wise it's no different from Tiger.

dark:~ ak$ uptime
19:50 up 18 days, 1:37, 2 users, load averages: 0.60 0.54 0.54

Upgrade or Archive & Install? (1)

kybred (795293) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528139)

I saw several reports that folks who installed leopard using the 'Upgrade' method had some problems. Those that did the Archive and Install method seemed to fare better. Skimmed through the article but didn't see anything about which he did.

Seems like he's more interested in complaining than figuring out what the problem is.

In fairness, Apple should probably encourage users to do the Archive/Install method for .0 releases, maybe even go so far as to disable the Upgrade option for those.

Linus is right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21528141)

I am with Linus on this one. For the life of me I can't understand what this sucking up to RMS is about. Linus himself does not think GPLv3 is a good thing. So why do people keep adopting it.
Without Linus FOSS is tossed. Not following Linus is dangerous for the survival of FOSS.

Anybody downgarding to 10.4? (1)

ultraslide (267976) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528177)

First ... I have the good sense not to upgrade my OS until i KNOW all my apps are well supported. I accept the risks if they aren't. I'm a big boy and I've seen my fair share of BSODs, Beachballs and Kernal Panics.

One detail obviously forgotten in the Vista / Leopard comparison:
How many Leopard users are being downgraded back to Tiger?

In my shop, where we sell new Macs and PCs, the ability to downgrade to XP is a requirement for a good deal of the hardware we order because it is so common for customers to DEMAND a downgrade to XP, for various reasons. They will pay for the OS twice - in addition to the fees we charge for installing XP on a new Vista based PC. I think that money speaks volumes about Vista.

BTW ... I upgraded my 12" PB G4 to Leopard (clean install) and have had only one problem. Sometimes apps are slow to quit. other than that, smooth sailing.

Quicktime 7.3 (5, Insightful)

localman (111171) | more than 6 years ago | (#21528183)

I don't know about Tiger (haven't upgraded yet) but the recent Quicktime 7.3 update is a pile of crap.

I'm not a power user, and I really just use Quicktime for porn, but it definitely took a major step backwards in this release: the select/copy/paste functionality has been removed from most movie types. Also the A/V controls (brightness, contrast) no longer work on many formats. These were things that _worked_ in 7.2 and have been _disabled_ in 7.3. I don't know what they're trying to do, but it seems like they're trying to make Quicktime completely useless. Those little features were the only reason I used Quicktime at all (instead of VLC, for example).

Poking around online to try and find a downgrade path, I found that a lot of Final Cut users were totally screwed by this update as well. And the downgrade path is to reinstall the OS from scratch and selectively update around Quicktime 7.3.

Meh... Apple is doing a lot of things right. And they're doing a lot of things wrong. I'd like to see them understand which is which, and hold on to the right things and work on improving the wrong things. Is that really too much to ask?

Bugs and such I understand, but who the hell thinks it's a good idea to disable existing functionality?

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