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Sneaking Stories Past Miyamoto

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the impish-glee dept.

Nintendo 83

Chris Kohler, editor over at Game|Life, has up a great interview with Super Mario Galaxy director Yoshiaki Koizumi. They discuss the development of the Mario and Zelda games, clarifying Shigeru Miyamoto's tense relationship with stories (and sentences), and discussing the lineage of the Mario titles: "In terms of spiritual successors, I've never found that to be the case. Whereas with the Zelda series, each game seems to follow pretty closely from the last with a few stylistic deviations. But Galaxy really feels like it went back to earlier roots with Super Mario Bros., in terms of trying to find that same tempo, that same feel. But for me, it's a matter of thinking what to do with each next step. There's nothing you really throw away. You think about these ideas and refine them constantly with every iteration of a game series. So for all the camera problems that you may have found in Mario 64 and Sunshine, even though we didn't realize how to fix those problems then, those solutions presented themselves over time and found their way into this game. I feel like you really can't have Galaxy without all of the things we learned from Sunshine."

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83 comments

Tutorial (5, Funny)

Philotic (957984) | more than 6 years ago | (#21577855)

Hold the A button to walk softly. If Miyamoto detects you he will send his guards. Be careful!

Re:Tutorial (3, Funny)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 6 years ago | (#21577891)

Don't worry if the guards come, you can just jump on their heads.

After defeating the guards... (2, Funny)

Joe Random (777564) | more than 6 years ago | (#21577937)

Be sure to rummage through their pockets for spare change. Collecting enough coins can grant you the power to resurrect yourself, should the need arise.

A Clockwork Mario (3, Funny)

Dogtanian (588974) | more than 6 years ago | (#21579017)

Don't worry if the guards come, you can just jump on their heads.
Consider this- are computer games harmless? Imagine that a bunch of teenagers play out what they've learned in Mario games for real.

They go out at night dressed in red and blue costumes and viciously assault their enemies by jumping on their heads. This sounds more like something out of "A Clockwork Orange" to me. :-/

Re:A Clockwork Mario (1)

aichpvee (631243) | more than 6 years ago | (#21580197)

If those kids can get the 6'+ ground clearance they'd need to accomplish the feat they're more than welcome to do it, as far as I'm concerned. As long as they video tape it and put it on YouTube. Because that would be damn impressive.

Re:A Clockwork Mario (1, Insightful)

greedyturtle (968401) | more than 6 years ago | (#21581483)

If computer games were real, I'd be running around in the dark, listening to repetitive electronic music, and munching as many little yellow pills as possible.

Re:A Clockwork Mario (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21594125)

You could be on a mushroom high.

Re:A Clockwork Mario (1)

NateTech (50881) | more than 6 years ago | (#21606837)

Consider this: Some people are too immature to play video games, and their parents should know this.

Re:Tutorial (1)

JohnPnP (1167497) | more than 6 years ago | (#21577925)

What was that noise? Oh... just a box.

Re:Tutorial (1)

IgLou (732042) | more than 6 years ago | (#21578417)

Is that a Metal Gear reference? Now that would be an event, Mario joins forces with Snake.

Mario no, don't bash that box! Snakes inside!
(Later...)Snake: "Take off that Racoon costume, you look ridiculous."
Mario: "Mama mia!"

Re:Tutorial (2, Funny)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#21581903)

Please tell me you've seen the videos of Snake talking about various Smash Bros characters. I especially love his lude remarks about Samus's Zero Suit, or his reactions to Wario's farts. I'm just thrilled to see that Kojima has allowed Sakuria to turn his hard-boiled character into one big joke:

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/stage13.html [smashbros.com]

Re:Tutorial (3, Interesting)

LrdDimwit (1133419) | more than 6 years ago | (#21582011)

Allowed nothing. Word has it that Kojima literally begged them to allow Snake into the game.

Re:Tutorial (1)

DeadChobi (740395) | more than 6 years ago | (#21585769)

Have you not seen the Metal Gear Secret Theatre on Konami's website? It's just a bunch of gag cutscenes. One of them features Snake trying to eat The Boss's horse, while Para Medic scolds him for being so cruel to animals.

Re:Tutorial (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21581907)

how is this at -1? i dont see much in this guys comment history and i dont see mods on the comment. please explain. thanks

linearity in galaxies (4, Interesting)

kisrael (134664) | more than 6 years ago | (#21577921)

In the Gamers Quarter forums, someone (Dessgeega I think) pointed out that while most of the levels in, say, Mario 64 are about exploring the landscape and solving the star problem, each challenge in Galaxies tends to be more or less linear, on many of the worlds you really are guided from place to place (since usually the star-travel is a one way trip.) So in a lot of ways it is more of an update to the more classic left-to-right formula than Mario 64 is.

You have to be a mature enough gamer to realize that linear doesn't always mean worse... and personally I like that they still offer some choice in skipping starts and going back to them later.

Re:linearity in galaxies (5, Interesting)

SlashdotOgre (739181) | more than 6 years ago | (#21578229)

I believe you hit the nail on the head; when I think Mario I want a platformer, not a sandbox game. Mario, like most Nintendo titles, have always seem to done better when sticking to their roots. A classical example of this is the early Zelda series. Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link, an excellent adventure/platformer in its own right, completely diverged from the style of the original Legend of Zelda, and Z2 was met with criticism. Whereas Zelda: A Link To The Past returns to its roots and did much better in terms of fan reception.

While I do believe evolution and experimentation are important, and this applies just as much to music and many other arts, at the same time I believe its critical to understand the heart of the original product and to be able to stay true with it in future iterations.

Re:linearity in galaxies (1)

Lehk228 (705449) | more than 6 years ago | (#21578487)

people whined about Z2 because it had the hardest enemies and boss fights of the series.

Re:linearity in galaxies (2, Informative)

SlashdotOgre (739181) | more than 6 years ago | (#21578645)

Zelda 2 allowed you to level up and even offered a "new game+" mode where your player kept their old stats. If you were having trouble on a boss, fight enough random battles to level up your attack. The game didn't scale the enemies up with your level (enemy difficulty was determined by location). I don't believe difficulty was a major reason why people disliked Zelda 2, there were a few cheap death areas that were frustrating, but most enemies (even bosses) could easily be defeated if you played through the levels following the normal path and picking up heart pieces along the way.

Re:linearity in galaxies (1)

Fozzyuw (950608) | more than 6 years ago | (#21579175)

I downloaded Zelda 2 for the Wii VC and I understand now why I couldn't touch the game when I was a kid.

I agree that it's not the difficulty. It's the attempt to make an RPG with action elements but miss both the good RPG and action elements (of the 8-bit era). Take the first Castlevania NES game and compare it to Zelda 2 and one should see why Castlevania was a good action game and Zelda was not... there was always something to keep you interested. Re-skinning Zelda onto Castelvania would have been more fun than Zelda 2.

Cheers,
Fozzy

Re:linearity in galaxies (1)

donaldm (919619) | more than 6 years ago | (#21582253)

Personally I liked zelda2 although I do know it got "panned" by many. I was actually disappointed in zelda3 on the SNES although IMHO it was still an enjoyable and fun game even though it was very much like zelda1 with better graphics. Zelda on the N64 IMHO was very nice graphically and in game play although in many ways it was still zelda1 again but with 3D graphics which I could definitely forgive. Wind Waker on the Gamecube was different but you can still see zelda1 which was fine and IMHO still made the game enjoyable to play but those long boat rides could get boring, fortunately you could warp which sort of reminds me of zelda1 again.

Still if the formula works and it rakes in lots of money (that is what a gaming company wants) then why change it and the same can be said for the Super Mario and Metroid (loved the first Gamecube one) Franchise as well.

Re:linearity in galaxies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21583247)

Actually, The Adventure (not Adventures!) of Link failed because it was NOT an excellent platformer. There were two problems with it: first of all, it tried to be both a platformer and an adventure game at the same time, pleasing two different crowds, and, not unexpectedly, ended up pleasing neither because it was neither fish nor fowl. And second, even if it had focused on solely being a platformer or an adventure, it wouldn't even have been a good one - it was a thoroughly MEDIOCRE platformer, and a thoroughly MEDIOCRE adventure.

I bought the game when it came out after finishing (and loving) the first Zelda game, and this is how not only I but also many others viewed the game back then.

Re:linearity in galaxies (1)

kisrael (134664) | more than 6 years ago | (#21583795)

Zelda 2 was my favorite, 'til maybe Z:OoT.

The side view fights were a lot of fun.

But I had help from the old player's guide, the one with the black cover.

Re:linearity in galaxies (0, Troll)

deathtopaulw (1032050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21580511)

oh shut up maturity has nothing to do with it, and in fact i have a better word: fanboyism
linearity was always mario's issue and is one of many reasons why the old sonic games were better

i was so glad to find mario 64 and sunshine had true exploration in them, i played both for probably a grand total of 6000 bazillion years... mario galaxy is a depressing mindless return to the old boring mario style, and the worst part is people like you who go "man this is even better" only a few years after saying the same thing about mario 64

insufferable fanboys

Re:linearity in galaxies (1)

kisrael (134664) | more than 6 years ago | (#21583829)

You have a premise that exploration is always better than linearity. I disagree.

Some of the charm of Mario is about giving the user a charming toy to play with. With Galaxies, these toys can be enjoyed in isolation. I had a real sense of I wonder what I'll run into next that Mario 64, for all of its exploration, didn't provide, because each part of a world in Mario 64 or Sunshine had to make more logical sense with the rest of the world.

For some reason I'm thinking of that one level by the docks in Sunshine... it was a pretty interesting level, with that big framework to climb kind of suspended in the sky, and then a little pierside minivillage, and stuff going on with the sea creatures. But I don't think I enjoyed finding out about the different parts of it nearly as much as I did being brought through a typical Galaxies level.

Sucks that you're modded down, man.

MG Levels Reminds Me of SMB3 (4, Insightful)

SlashdotOgre (739181) | more than 6 years ago | (#21578003)

I'm about a quarter of the stars through MG (probably be done if I didn't get swallowed up by Mass Effect), and I have to say I've already ran across several levels that totally remind me of Super Mario Brothers 3 (my favorite Mario game by far, and one of my favorite games ever). The one that stands out the most in my mind so far is the Sweet Sweet Galaxy which totally reminds me of the directional scrolling levels in SMB3. I played through M64, and while I admit it's a solid title, I didn't care for it as much as either SMB3 or SMW. I'm not sure how, but they did a fantastic of capturing the heart of older Mario titles.

Re:MG Levels Reminds Me of SMB3 (2, Insightful)

ArchAngelQ (35053) | more than 6 years ago | (#21578101)

I've got to agree with this, and another of the posts above: the linear levels are a real treat in mario games. New Super Mario was the last one that I played, and like Super Mario World, it's got exploration of the overworld map, and very linear pace once you are in a level proper. That's the great mario formula, and one of the reasons I'm not as big a fan of Mario 64. The reason being, if I am going to run around that much, I want to have some big cool thing to unlock to come back and do nifty stuff with the old environment. If I want non-linear, give me Zelda or Metroid. Mario should be all about platform jumping and twitch fingers :)

Re:MG Levels Reminds Me of SMB3 (2, Funny)

renegadesx (977007) | more than 6 years ago | (#21578337)

Well "Sweet Sweet Galaxy" uses a theme from SMB3 so yeah it does feel nostalgic. I'm up to the last Galaxy system and almost done. This may be my favourate Mario yet (before that was SMB3)

Personally I didn't think Sunshine in of itself was a bad game. It was bad when you place it along side other Mario games but in of itself it was kind of cool.

Re:MG Levels Reminds Me of SMB3 (1)

Dorceon (928997) | more than 6 years ago | (#21580517)

The nostalgia will really kick in when you see moles who throw wrenches and airships with long screw-threaded poles holding them together that you traverse by spinning a nut.

MG really *IS* the Mario 3 of the 3D era... (2, Insightful)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#21582027)

Mario Galaxy draws on Mario 3 so much, and possibly because it tries so hard to be new and creative. With Mario 64, it was everything the team could do to make a game in 3D that still had some semblence of being a Mario (and whether they succeeded is still up for grabs), but there wasn't a whole lot of room for just laid-back, comfortable, experimentation. Something went wrong with Mario Sunshine, and I don't know exactly what, so I won't dwell on it. But Mario Galaxy... the guys just seem, comfortable, in their elements. They've already figured out the technical side of the equation, so now it's just sitting back and saying, "hey, wouldn't it be neat if we did ____!" That's really what made Mario 3 so great, every level was a fresh, new, inspired little world where you just couldn't help but saying, "that's really neat!" I mean, you had one level where you bounced around on flying beatles, and they would rise every time you jumped on them... that's it... one level, onto the next neat idea. You had another with platforms that would move in different directions every time you jumped on them.

I got the exact same vibe from Galaxy. You have one level (later one), where they entire level sort of melts in and out, as if there are some kind of cosmic spotlings, and any place they don't shine on, DOESN'T EXIST! How crazy and neat is that?! Or a conveyerbelt filled with holes, that you have to jump around.

Not only did it feel like the process was similar to Mario 3, I think it was obvious to the creators that there was a connection. The game practically begins with a re-arrangement of the Mario 3 airship music, in full 40-piece symphonic glory! And there were a few other Mario 3 musical references too, as well as some design similarities.

My only gripe with the game was the "suits". Mario 3 had, hands down, the greatest powerups in the series: Racoon, Tanuki, Eureka Shoe, Frog, and Hammer Bros, and so many of them were "secret". Mario Galaxy fell on it's ass with powerups. Not only were two of the suits a nightmare to control (Bee and Spring), but the times you could use them were completely regimented, and required. What was great about Mario 3 was that the suits could be used anywhere, so holding onto one suit through a few levels allowed you to do things, in other levels, that you wouldn't normally expect. In a castle, where there were nothing but fire flowers, if you had held onto a racoon suit, you could fly up to a secret area. In a lake with nothing but feathers, you could swim into a hidden cave with the frog suit. In Mario Galaxy, the suits are simply there to complete a certain given task for that level, and it feels really forced. It was even worse with Mario 64, but they were so incredibly minor, it didn't even really matter anyway.

All-in-all, hands down, best 3D Mario game. Mario 3 may still remain my favorite Mario, but Galaxy sits right up there with it and Mario World. Twilight Princess was able to knock out it's 2D and 3D counterparts for FAVORITE GAME OF ALL TIME, but I was suprised that Mario Galaxy could also do so well for me.

Re:MG really *IS* the Mario 3 of the 3D era... (1)

LKM (227954) | more than 6 years ago | (#21583015)

the times you could use [the "suits" in Galaxy] were completely regimented

I think there's no other way to do it in a game like Galaxy. If you had the Bee suit in, say, the toy robot level, you could just fly to the end of the level. Being able to move suits would make a game like Galaxy too exploitable, and taking each suit into account in each level would probably make a lot of puzzles impossible.

Re:MG really *IS* the Mario 3 of the 3D era... (1)

Chode2235 (866375) | more than 6 years ago | (#21587011)

Like using a P-Wing to fly the entire length of the airship, or the tanks in level 8. How dare I use that to get by a (by design) absurdly hard level?

Re:MG really *IS* the Mario 3 of the 3D era... (1)

IpalindromeI (515070) | more than 6 years ago | (#21587467)

It was the same with SMB3. On quite a few levels, if you had a tail, you could just fly over the entire level. Some levels were made trivial by using the tanuki suit's stone ability. Why not give people the option? If someone wants to bypass a level in a lame way, let them. They're only ruining it for themselves. But part of the fun of gaming is exploring possibilities. "I'll just try this and see what happens." Sometimes it turns out to be the most fun part of the game.

Re:MG really *IS* the Mario 3 of the 3D era... (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#21587753)

I agree. Now, the P-Wing had a limiter on it, after the level, it would turn into a normal racoon suit, and the Tenuki suit wasn't ALL that rape-o-licious. But the Bee suit isn't that rape-o-licious either. It has limited height and range, even less than racoon or cape (I didn't like the cape, I would have prefered the racoon in SMW, there was something more crazy about being a flying racoon, how cool is that?) But, also, there are lots of black holes in Galaxy, if you fly too high or too low, you're going to get sucked into one. Ghost Mario would have been a bit much since it can fly forever.

EAD defined (2, Interesting)

randyest (589159) | more than 6 years ago | (#21578063)

If anyone else is curious about what "EAD" stands for, it's Entertainment Analysis and Development. Wikipedia has more info [wikipedia.org]. Maybe I'm just an old man who should know that acronym since everyone else does, but didn't, and I think almost all acronyms should be defined on first use in such articles.

Re:EAD defined (1)

cbart387 (1192883) | more than 6 years ago | (#21597189)

I tend to agree with this user. There are a lot of acronyms used on this site. I'm sure they make perfect sense to someone who's used this site for a while, but to a newcomer they're very confusing. Slashdot has it's own little language, like IMing. It really could use a list of acronyms to help newcomers like the list for aim [aim.com] that is helpful to all the clueless parents.

From TFA (1)

metroid composite (710698) | more than 6 years ago | (#21578555)

I agree that the Storybook was well done. It was completely optional, and yet I visited it every time a new chapter was unlocked. It was just well-presented and appealing. However, other story elements I thought were terrible, like the opening cutscene. They could have made that 10 seconds long, and dropped me into the first level, and I would be much happier. This isn't some "I hate required cutscenes in games" rant, because that's just not true (I'm an admin on a jRPG fansite). This isn't some "Mario games in-particular should never have required cutscenes", since there are Paper Mario cutscenes I find absolutely awesome. I just found the non-storybook cutscenes in Galaxy to be pointless and boring.

Re:From TFA (1)

Mr2001 (90979) | more than 6 years ago | (#21579869)

It should, however, be possible to skip cutscenes. When you start a new game, you shouldn't have to watch the intro again. When you die during a boss battle, you shouldn't have to sit through the taunts and camera panning on your next attempt. Watching the cutscenes once is fine, although both stories in SMG left me thoroughly bored, but having to watch them over and over is unacceptable.

There were times when it felt like the game was more about punishing failure with repetition (ha ha, you died near the end of the level, now you have to start over from the beginning), which conflicts with the idea of making a game that's fun to play -- replaying a level shouldn't feel like punishment.

Re:From TFA (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 6 years ago | (#21590699)

At least, unlike SM64 and SMS, Galaxy had mid-level checkpoints so you didn't have to start the entire level over when you died.

Camera in galaxy (3, Insightful)

ad0gg (594412) | more than 6 years ago | (#21578699)

So for all the camera problems that you may have found in Mario 64 and Sunshine, even though we didn't realize how to fix those problems then, those solutions presented themselves over time and found their way into this game. I feel like you really can't have Galaxy without all of the things we learned from Sunshine."

Disabling changing the camera angle in most parts of game isn't fixing the problem.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21578885)

I agree - I don't think they ever found the solution for the camera problems. the camera was arguably the best in M64 Sunshine and MG both have problematic cameras

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

Dr.Boje (1064726) | more than 6 years ago | (#21579961)

You and parent are both either ignorant fools or blatant liars if you claim to have found the camera in MG to be problematic. It's rare to find a spot where the camera is in a bad position, but you can always rotate it to a good one if need be.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

Yosho (135835) | more than 6 years ago | (#21581965)

It's rare to find a spot where the camera is in a bad position, but you can always rotate it to a good one if need be.

Uh.. no, you can't. There are many places where they lock the player out of rotating the camera, and if you don't like the angle, it's very annoying.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21584861)

you can't deduce that I am ignorant if all you have is my opinion.

anyway, go read some reviews about MG (avoid Gamespot, if possible :) - across all the nearly-perfect scores that all reviewers gave, the 1 common problem they all found was the camera. Of course these are all opinions as well but my point is that you are in the minority if you think the camera has no problems.

you're a silly doctor.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

Dr.Boje (1064726) | more than 6 years ago | (#21592453)

Yes, I can and will deduce that you are ignorant if your opinion is one which is ignorant. I've already read several reviews of the game and none of them have mentioned any problems with the camera. The biggest complaint I read about in a review was the presentation of the story via the storybook. Hell, a couple of the reviews even praised the "scary-smart camera". I can't take the issue you have with the camera as being serious because my play-through of the game rarely presented a problem with the camera, and during the times there was a problem I could always rotate the camera to a better position.

This is by far the best camera any Mario game has had and any issues with it are no more than nitpickings. Perhaps you did have a rough time with the camera -- if so, I'd chalk that up to bad luck. At any rate, your bad experience with the camera is probably a rarity. You and parent are honestly the first people I've seen complain about the camera, which just boggles my mind because of how great the camera really is.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21601309)

i'm not going to be able to say it any better than Joystiq's nega-review - their nega-reviews are a collection of negative points found in reviews for a game that gets very high scores. you can look up the source of each if you go to the joystiq site and read the FA.

here's a snippet:

"The concept of running around giant spheres can be daunting at first." (3) "Just be warned that the potential for nausea is high, as it takes a moment or two to adjust to the camera." (4) "There are a few areas where the camera prevents you from seeing things perfectly," (7) such as "times where walls will obstruct your view or you won't be able to rotate the perspective to see where you are supposed to jump next." (5) "Every so often ... you will find yourself in a situation where the camera isn't quite right ... When that happens and you can't center yourself, you have no recourse, which is unfortunate ... It's not perfect." (6)"
so, as you can see, camera problems are still an issue for some even if they are not for you.

also, ignorance deals with not having information or facts, not with opinion. If I don't like ice cream and you do, you can't really make the jump to ignorance. now, if I say I hate ice cream but I don't know what it is, then you've got something... maybe.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

Dr.Boje (1064726) | more than 6 years ago | (#21609485)

Thanks for inadvertently proving my point. If these nega-reviews point out the negatives in games that receive "very high scores", then obviously they are nothing more than nitpickings... hence the reason I called you ignorant. 99.9% of the time, the camera in MG is right on the mark. I believe you're making the problems you've had with the camera out to sound much, much more troublesome and frequent than they are, which is ignoring the large majority of the time that the camera is spot on -- that comes across as ignorant to me. Plus, looking at the cameras from previous Mario titles, this one is in a league of its own.

So, if you don't like ice cream and I do, but you dislike it because of the color, I'd say that's ignorant... maybe.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21613413)

the type of complaint is irrelevant. the FACT is that people other than me think problems still exist with the camera (thier opinion). I also included quotes from 5 reviews which also proves that there are reviews out there that talk specifically about it - you said none of them did this.
I understand that you think the camera in MG is perfect and since that's your OPINION, I have no absolutely no problem with that. it's too bad you have such a problem with other people's opinion, though. do you know what the difference is between fact and opinion? seems as if you don't.

>> "you dislike it because of the color, I'd say that's ignorant".
that's a pretty awful analogy because ice cream comes in many colors so the focus is more on the color than the ice cream - the person saying this is confused, not ignorant. Let's fix that. let's say I don't like ice cream because it's cold. "ice cream is cold"=fact - "i don't like cold ice cream"=opinion. no matter how you try to spin it, someone's opinion can't be wrong and therefore, by definition, can't be ignorant because of it. this English lesson provided free of charge!

so, unfortunately for you (although I don't understand why), I am not the only one who holds the opinion that problems still exist with the camera (no need to even look farther than other posts in this thread!) in Mario games despite what you think and despite what Koizumi and Miyamoto say. that's the beauty of opinions! cool, 'innit?

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

Dr.Boje (1064726) | more than 6 years ago | (#21616203)

Haha, but you misunderstand. I'm not saying that that's your opinion... I'm saying it's wrong. Quoting 5 reviews that happen to all mention a problem with the camera isn't very convincing at all. In addition, any problems with the camera are so slight that it just doesn't justify complaining about it. Sorry. :)

I also included quotes from 5 reviews which also proves that there are reviews out there that talk specifically about it - you said none of them did this.

Actually, I said none of the ones that I read mentioned a problem with the camera and that one even boasted about the game's "scary-smart" camera.

no matter how you try to spin it, someone's opinion can't be wrong and therefore, by definition, can't be ignorant because of it. this English lesson provided free of charge!

But if someone said they disliked a certain ice cream because of the color, they'd be ignorant since you eat ice cream for the taste. Unless someone picked foods based on their color, but that would make them a huge weirdo ^^.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21621377)

dude, you're all over the place... and sorry, but I just can't spend any more time trying to teach you rudimentary English and logic [read: the diff between fact and opinion]. stay in school!

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

Dr.Boje (1064726) | more than 6 years ago | (#21621787)

Haha it's cool man, you're full of excrement and yourself so do us all a favor and jump off a bridge! You can't get it through your thick skull that I'm not talking about your opinion being an opinion... so I guess I'd be better off talking to a brick wall.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21624493)

[sigh] ok I'll breath one last gasp of hope into this...

I'm not talking about your opinion being an opinion
this is exactly the problem - you've been treating my opinion like a fact from the beginning. an opinion can be neither right or wrong. by calling my opinion wrong (among other indicators), you are treating it like a fact. furthermore, I am not alone in this opinion - and they also are not right or wrong but it shows that your absolute condemnation is unfounded. Nitpicking? of course it is! The FA is nitpicking! MG is an incredible game worthy of all the praise it has gotten (could you possibly disagree with everything? lets see). all that's left is nitpicking, but so what? you're on a geek site, talking about geek things, in a geek way - geeks nitpick; it's what we do best [read: over analyze]. you're nitpicking about my damn opinion, not the game! there's got to be a better outlet for your angst than this - try rubbing one out followed by a nap.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

Dr.Boje (1064726) | more than 6 years ago | (#21629647)

Again, you fail to truly grasp my point, and acting like a pompous asshole isn't helping your cause. If someone dislikes the camera in MG, I couldn't care less. However, if their reasoning behind their opinion is based on false information or something as absurdly insignificant as your issue, then I just don't see that opinion as justified and therefore must view it as invalid. So please, stop making the issue out to be more than it is. Nobody really cares that the camera in MG can be problematic at times, because it happens so infrequently and is hardly bothersome.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21631579)

wow, ok. did you RTFA?

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

Dr.Boje (1064726) | more than 6 years ago | (#21631763)

Yeah, I did. Are you even understanding what I'm saying? Maybe I already am talking to a brick wall...

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21632867)

this has become so absurd it's starting to be fun - like a staring contest where you somehow lose by looking away first :)

yeah, I understand - any problems that I or anyone else have with the camera in MG are so insignificant that it should not be talked about here on /. or in a review or um, anywhere I guess... that part's still not clear. While it's a good thing we have you around here to let us know when the Significance Threshold has been crossed, you could suggest some places where it IS ok to talk about such trivial things.

you may have lost sight of the fact (though not for lack of my trying) that you attacked the parent and I first for no reason at all - calling us ignorant or liars because of our opinions doesn't make any logical sense, doesn't forward any discussion other than a pissing match like this and actually damages the sense of freedom of expression on this site (which is the entire point of this site) for fear (oh my!) of being attacked by rabid, frothing fanboys - [hint]it spreads through the saliva.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

Dr.Boje (1064726) | more than 6 years ago | (#21633291)

I've done all the explaining I can be bothered with doing, but apparently you're just not getting it. For the record, I never said you shouldn't ever cry about the camera in MG, but good GOD son, did you forget the 99.9% of the time when everything works flawlessly? Just like nobody wants to hear you bitch about how bad your day was or what happened to you at the office, nobody wants to hear you bitch about it when you find some insignificant problem in a game. Plus, when you do bitch about it, you make it sound like a bigger problem than it is.

So, sorry if your pussy is hurt over being attacked by "rabid, frothing fanboys" [read: the voice of reason], but that's what you get when you whine about something stupid. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to mod your relative post score down so I don't have to read any more of your 'brilliant insight'.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21634995)

date: 2007-12-9
filed under: absurd - not for public consumption
subject: insane mutant troll rant annotated

did you forget the 99.9% of the time when everything works flawlessly?
the post I responded to wasn't about how good the camera was... and besides [pout], you never asked!

nobody wants to hear you bitch about how bad your day was or what happened to you at the office,
why don't you write the authors of reviews that also mentioned these problems and tell them they are just being bitchy. I'm sure they'll take it well.

nobody wants to hear you bitch about it when you find some insignificant problem in a game.
i responded to the parent who's post got modded to +4 insightful from some person or persons. also, why haven't you responded to Yosho who corrected your arguably ignorant statement? include the quotes from the reviews I posted and that's a lot of nobodies without even leaving this thread.

Plus, when you do bitch about it, you make it sound like a bigger problem than it is
I never talked about frequency (neither did the parent) or severity, in fact, I didn't really go into any detail - your wild assumptions are yours alone. if it makes you feel any better, I loved the camera in MG! can you believe it? but since perfection is a theoretical impossibility, there were the issues I alluded to - issues that have been better described within some published reviews.

sorry if your pussy is hurt over being attacked by "rabid, frothing fanboys" [read: the voice of reason],
well, mine might hurt for now, but yours has a stank that won't wash out. BWAHAHAHAHA

I need to mod your relative post score down so I don't have to read any more of your 'brilliant insight'.
:D - it's cool, even if I knew what it meant, I couldn't care less (hence why).

seriously though, once you figure out that people can disagree with you and still not be wrong, a lot of that angst will go away. good luck.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

LiquidAvatar (772805) | more than 6 years ago | (#21580401)

I'd say that you should give M64 another play through. While waiting for Galaxy, I pulled out the old 64 and spent some time with Mario and it was amazing. I was amazed that, when making series of difficult jumps, I was more challenged by manipulating the camera than by the platforms that I was jumping to. Mario is about "platforming" - not about "cameraing"

When we all played M64 for the first time, it was an amazing experience. Now, standards have risen. If a modern platformer came out that required that much camera babysitting, people would complain that it caused the game to be unplayable.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

TrekkieGod (627867) | more than 6 years ago | (#21582149)

If a modern platformer came out that required that much camera babysitting, people would complain that it caused the game to be unplayable.

It's called Ninja Gaiden. The only reason it didn't quite reach "unplayable" status was because every single other thing about the game was just awesome. Either way, there were enough complaints about it that caused the re-release of essentially the exact same game (Ninja Gaiden Black + Sigma) with a few added bonuses and the ability to control the camera.

Haven't played Galaxy so I don't know what the state with that is, but I agree with you that playing Mario 64 today would annoy me to no end, regardless of how much fun I had with it back in the day.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

Morinaga (857587) | more than 6 years ago | (#21584721)

Even before Black / Sigma you could redirect the camera in Ninja Gaiden to the direction you were facing. You just couldn't rotate the camera (freestyle as it were). That said, the camera use in Ninja Gaiden was really bad. Even when you could freely rotate the camera it wasn't a panacea for improving the issue. You still had to block while you rotated the camera. Then, when you faced something like those three God Damn Black Ninjas you never had time to adjust the camera at all, you had to actually go back to the old system of pushing the button to face the camera in the direction of your character because the free rotating camera wasn't fast enough. Cameras seem to be HUGE issues for 3rd person (is that even the damn term?) games. Ninja Gaiden, as fantastic as it was (and still is) never did perfect this.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21585095)

yep, but they added the camera control before the Black re-release in an xbox live downloadable patch... just thought I throw that out there for no real reason :)

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21584977)

maybe you're right...
However, I remember that M64 rarely disabled the camera while MSunshine and MG lock the camera frequently - I find this annoying because there never seemed to be reason why the camera would become locked other than the developers doing it to make the challenge harder.
I agree that a Mario game should not be about controlling the camera, but I think it's a necessary evil for a 3D game that is not on rails.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

metroid composite (710698) | more than 6 years ago | (#21586281)

While SMG still has some camera problems, I really don't see how you can call it worse than Mario 64. SMG I played for about 10 levels before I felt the need to adjust the camera myself. Mario 64 will swivel or flip the camera right before a big jump or when you're walking on a narrow beam, a problem I -never- had in SMG, and which you can NOT circumvent in Mario 64 by simply using the swivel function (you had to actually go to the zoomed-in Mario asscam if you wanted to run straight at your jump).

In all honesty, I don't see why you want more use of the swivel function, since it rarely helped at all in the bad camera locations (the camera would still rotate obnoxiously as you approached your jump). I could see complaining about the removal of the "directly behind Mario" cam, since as ugly as it was, it was guaranteed to be predictable.

Re:Camera in galaxy (1)

captain_cthulhu (996356) | more than 6 years ago | (#21613681)

i don't want more use of a poorly implemented swivel function, but I do want more control. I've played 3d games where camera control was great - if the camera ends up in a bad spot, I can move it and it stays. I was mostly referring to the camera locking in Mario games - it happens with annoying frequency in MG and MSunshine while it was fairly rare in M64. Anyway, when I referenced M64's camera I said 'I seem to remember' - it's been a while since I played it so I was not making an empirical statement.
sheesh, people are so touchy around here, as if it's a personal attack whenever someone questions something.

>>"flip the camera right before a big jump or when you're walking on a narrow beam, a problem I -never- had in SMG,"
i agree, but MG locks the camera often when a different angle would help greatly, a problem I don't remember having in M64.

So once again, it simply comes down to personal preference and opinion - we all win and lose simultaneously! OHM!

Re:Camera in galaxy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21585819)

Disabling changing the camera angle in most parts of game isn't fixing the problem.

It did for me, I don't have any problems with the camera in MG.

Drama and Design... (3, Insightful)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#21581885)

Twilight Princess was the first Zelda that made me cry (possibly the first GAME that made me tear up). Super Paper Mario had a similar effect (even though the game, as a whole, wasn't quite as good), and Mario Galaxy's story book totally got to me. The storybook probably solidified Galaxy as my favorite Mario game... it just brought everything together, from an emotional standpoint, even if the rest of the game wasn't so dramatic, the storybook supplied that side of it, and that was enough. Not to mention, it was an amazing storybook. It seems like a story written for adults to feel like a children's story, but with all the depth of emotion required for adult enjoyment. I got a similar feeling from the game ICO, or from the story in Super Paper Mario.

On other things, one thing that Mario 64 really back-treaded with was the number of levels. More levels = more different types of gaming styles. Here's Mario 3 and Super Mario World with 70+ and 120+ levels, all with their own unique style and gameplay gimmicks. Then there's Mario 64, with maybe 12 levels. You find yourself repeating yourself a lot, and for little reason. Obviously, the reason was because 3D levels are infinitely more complex, require more space on a cartridge, and more time in the design process. Now, with DVDs, it's possible to have many levels, and the design teams have learned how to make 3D levels as efficiently as they had with 2D levels. That's one of the main reasons why Mario Galaxy starts to feel more like Mario 3 or Mario World. I really missed having lots of little levels, each with it's own style, and not spending hours playing one level over and over again, on different "missions". With about 40 levels, Mario Galaxy just feels more like Mario 3 than almost any other game.

Re:Drama and Design... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21585875)

I'd just like to point out that Super Mario World had nowhere near 120+ levels. It had less than 80, but it had a total of 96 dfferent exits to the levels.

After clearing each level, many having two exits, the saved game select screen would show a 96 with a little star next to it.

Re:Drama and Design... (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#21587633)

Thanks for clearing that up. I knew that SMB3 has about 70 levels (since each of the 8 worlds has a minimum of 7-13 levels, including castles and airship), it felt like SMW was expanded by about 50%, but maybe that was in the level length, not number. I was simply guessing.

Re:Drama and Design... (1)

icedcool (446975) | more than 6 years ago | (#21586601)

Twilight Princess was the first Zelda that made me cry (possibly the first GAME that made me tear up).

You need to check out FF6 or FF7. FF7 holds the place in my heart as one of the best games of all time. Definitely most emotionally engaging.

That and maybe Cave story [miraigamer.net].

Re:Drama and Design... (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#21587589)

OF COURSE I've played FF6 and FF7. FF6 made me choke up a few times (Celes' attempted suicide being a highlight), but FF7 never really got to me. I prefer FF8 and 9 to 7, actually, I just think they had a better sense of drama and much better characterization, I never could connect with anyone in 7.

But surprisingly, TP got to me even more. The drama was sparce, but when it was there, it was pretty heavy. I think they did an even better job of timing and presentation, that when they hit you with something, it hit both harder and more subtly than the Final Fantasy series does (nothing against the FF series, it's one of my favorites).

Re:Drama and Design... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21589749)

Twilight Princess was the first Zelda that made me cry
That's funny. Eric sounds like a man's name.

Re:Drama and Design... (1)

Nalgas D. Lemur (105785) | more than 6 years ago | (#21608441)

The storybook probably solidified Galaxy as my favorite Mario game... it just brought everything together, from an emotional standpoint, even if the rest of the game wasn't so dramatic, the storybook supplied that side of it, and that was enough. Not to mention, it was an amazing storybook. It seems like a story written for adults to feel like a children's story, but with all the depth of emotion required for adult enjoyment.
Now that I've "finished" the game (seen the entire storybook and ending, but don't have quite 2/3 of the stars yet), I definitely agree with that. When I first started playing, the first real level in space made me feel like I was playing a cross between The Little Prince [wikipedia.org] and a Mario game, just because of the setting and the feel of running around tiny planets with regular-sized objects on them. After going through the whole storybook, though, I think making that connection is even more accurate, since, as you put it, they're both children's stories for adults. That was not something I expected, but it was definitely something I appreciated; it's one of my favorite books, and it was neat to see something reminiscent of it in a video game, of all places. It's little stuff like that that keeps a lot of Nintendo's first-party stuff near the top of my list of favorites, even with so much high-quality competition out there.

Re:Drama and Design... (1)

7Prime (871679) | more than 6 years ago | (#21615471)

Yeah, I was definitely feeling the Little Prince vibe, especially with the storybook. I've never read the WHOLE story of Little Prince, but I've read most of it, and I saw a theatrical version of it once that was very good (the "drinking man" scene was especially well portrayed). But yeah, I thought to myself, they must have read The Little Prince while creating the dramatic elements for Mario Galaxy, but now that I think about it, it's not hard to believe that they simply ended up on a parallel route.

Best Zelda Story Ever (1)

LKM (227954) | more than 6 years ago | (#21582865)

The first real game work that I did was on Link's Awakening. But at the same time, I came in to write the manual, as I did on the previous game. But they had nothing in place. So I ended up making an entire story to go along with the game. The dream, the island, that was all mine.

Sir, thank you for the best story I've ever experienced in a Zelda game. Awesome.

So wait, this is the guy I should blame... (1)

trdrstv (986999) | more than 6 years ago | (#21597531)

for Super Paper Mario? Was Miyamoto on an extended leave when this guy inserted hours worth if babble in between the platforming stages? Don't get me wrong, SPM is still a fun game, but I would have found it far more enjoyable if they reduced the nonsequitur story and stuck more with the platforming.
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