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KDE and KOffice Rebuke OOXML, GNOME Dithers

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the ooffice-politics dept.

KDE 398

Peter writes "Free Software Foundation president Richard Stallman and ITWire have praised KDE and KOffice developers for taking a principled stand against OOXML, while raising serious concerns about the GNOME Foundation's decision to give credibility to Microsoft's broken format. This comes on the heels of GNOME co-founder Miguel de Icaza's depiction of OOXML as a 'superb standard', and GNOME Foundation director Quim Gil's stonewalling of the patent-free Ogg Vorbis / Theora format on behalf of Nokia. Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?"

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Miguel de Icaza (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21656855)

Is he on MS's payroll?

Re:Miguel de Icaza (5, Insightful)

Trigun (685027) | more than 6 years ago | (#21656893)

No, he is on Novell's payroll.

Novell is on MS's payroll.

Re:Miguel de Icaza (5, Funny)

RailGunner (554645) | more than 6 years ago | (#21656951)

Novell is on MS's payroll.

But the default desktop for SUSE Linux (owned by Novell) is KDE... So GNOME uses de Icaza who promotes Microsoft on Novell's payroll which ships KDE as the default desktop, but Microsoft has an agreement with Novell who has de Icaza on payroll and - Oh no, now I'm dizzy!

Re:Miguel de Icaza (4, Informative)

AmaDaden (794446) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657339)

This [slashdot.org] should help. A quick bit of text from Miguel him self from the link on his endorsement of OOXML that the article refers to.

I made that comment on my blog because that reflects my personal opinion. You really need to obsess over something else. And before someone brings up the Microsoft connection, you should know that Novell official policy is to actively endorse ODF and that Novell's position on OOXML is neutral.
So it looks like Novell works on implementing Microsoft stuff but does not officially think you should use it. Miguel thinks that MS does a good job every so often and Linux should work with MS standards.

I don't agree with the good job part but think about it. If MS switches over to OOXML and Linux can support it just as well as Windows who needs Windows? The same logic works with .NET. I am aware that this is easier said then done but it has been done before [wikipedia.org]

Re:Miguel de Icaza (2, Funny)

RailGunner (554645) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657431)

Thanks for the info; but I was really aiming for a +5, Funny moderation with the dizzy comment. :)

Re:Miguel de Icaza (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657613)

If MS switches over to OOXML and Linux can support it just as well as Windows who needs Windows?


Linux already supports other MS Office formats, as well as SMB and NTFS. That hasn't yet stopped people from using Windows.

Also, I don't think the goal is to prevent people from choosing to use Windows, but rather to prevent Microsoft from gaming the ISO in order to have their proprietary format adopted as the "standard" for an open document format.

Re:Miguel de Icaza (2, Insightful)

AmaDaden (794446) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658467)

It's been my experience that does not support office formats well. Mostly for images and tables. I have had many experiences where I open up a .doc only to find that the images are on top of each other. With any luck a formal spec, as convoluted and stupid as it is, would help fix this problem. I commonly recommend that people try using Open Office before they run out a buy MS Office. Half of them end up having so many problems with .docs that they have to get MS Office anyway. I am not saying that it's a good standard just that MS making an open standard at all is a benefit for Linux adaption in the long run. I'm also giving Miguel the benefit of the doubt here by saying that he might be supporting MS standards so that a switch from Windows to Linux becomes easier for people.

Re:Miguel de Icaza (2, Interesting)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657567)

You guys all know that Miguel has been distancing himself from GNOME for years now? He even had a signature at one point on his Slashdot account (since removed) asking people not to complain to him about perceived flaws in GNOME's UI.

Miguel is a Mono developer. Mono is linked to GNOME in the sense that some GNOME tools use it, but it's about as accurate to paint him as a GNOME developer as it would be to paint GCC developers the same way.

Wait, that isn't a car analogy. Hold on - it's about as accurate to paint him as a GNOME developer as it would be to paint a Goodyear tire salesman a Ford mechanic.

Yeah, yeah. That one works.

Re:Miguel de Icaza (2, Interesting)

udippel (562132) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657239)

No, he is on Novell's payroll.

Novell is on MS's payroll.


Which isn't all too high, look at their recent filings and layoffs.
Sure he wants to get a generous offer from them (MS), and he'll bent any direction of the windrose for it.
Let him move along. Even encourage him to move along. Gnumeric was the last great thing he did. Evolution was already corrupted, because the contributors to the Exchange plugin were asked to fork out for using it.
The earlier he arrives in Redmond, the better for the community.

Re:Miguel de Icaza (2, Insightful)

brewstate (1018558) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657745)

de Icaza is very entrenched in MS derived technologies: Mono, SilverLight, etc. It is perfectly understandable to want the MS technologies to be thoroughly explained and implementable. Also there are some back history to OOXML that contains file format data that could be useful for many of the projects. For the sake of interop it is necessary to glean the standards as written. I don't think he is giving too much praise to the OOXML format, whether it is better or not is not important here.

Re:Miguel de Icaza (1)

The_Abortionist (930834) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657237)

Miguel is an open source Hero. Things are possible on Linux, and other UNIXes, that would never have been without first his strong-held beliefs in interoperability with wide spread standards, and second his unrelented efforts in building on those beliefs.

I am talking about Mono here, of course. So, if he says that OOXML is good, than you can believe it.

In the end, Linux on the desktop will only happen through Microsoft.

sounds like Novell is running the show now (0, Offtopic)

r00t (33219) | more than 6 years ago | (#21656863)

Grrr... and I was refusing to touch KDE because way back when they linked other people's GPL code against pre-GPL Qt. I'm not happy now. Fuck you Novell, for being Microsoft's bitch.

Re:sounds like Novell is running the show now (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657559)

> Grrr... and I was refusing to touch KDE because way back when they linked
> other people's GPL code against pre-GPL Qt. I'm not happy now.
> Fuck you Novell, for being Microsoft's bitch.

You think that the KDE project ever linked against other people's GPL code?
Read this and think again:

http://www.kde.org/announcements/rmsresponse.php [kde.org]

Admitting it? (1)

CritterNYC (190163) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657853)

Isn't that statement essentially an admission that KDE purposely linked GPL licensed code to the older, proprietary Qt code (thus violating copyright law)? In that case, yes, the original copyright holder can revoke their privileges under GPL 2. This is one of the things that was changed in GPL 3.

Re:Admitting it? (5, Informative)

stilborne (85590) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658377)

yes, KDE purposefully linked GPL licensed code to QPLv1 code. however, it was THEIR code which means that they were fully within their rights to do so. anyone building apps on top of those libs implicitly agreed as well.

linking someone else's code would be an issue, and in the 2 cases where that happened it was rectified as soon as it was brought up; it's also useful to note that those 2 cases were small code fragments, not significant bodies of work, and as such certainly not evidence of a willfull plot or some such thing. they were oversights, and corrected in a timely manner without fuss.

and this was what, getting to be 10 years ago now? today we have nice clean GPL'd (or "better") code on every platform we support. let's find some new issues to grind over. =)

OMG... Stallman is against MS? No Way!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21658403)

while raising serious concerns about the GNOME Foundation's decision to give credibility to Microsoft's broken format.


Well, the could always try to make their own standard. Oh wait... they tried that and failed, didn't they?

Guess the world will have to go with MS's "broken" format, as opposed to the FOSSie's "nonexistent" format. Yep, it's a bad year to be a rabid anti-MS zealot, isn't it?

Secret support of anti-free policies? (-1, Offtopic)

Futurepower(R) (558542) | more than 6 years ago | (#21656867)

To me, the Slashdot story reads like someone trying to direct attention away from secret dealing. "Peter" wrote the story; who is he?

The best way to bring people to open source (3, Insightful)

nofrak (889021) | more than 6 years ago | (#21656871)

is to constantly fight about it amongst ourselves. That'll do the trick.

Re:The best way to bring people to open source (5, Funny)

phasm42 (588479) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657005)

Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?
Found out on the next exciting episode of Desktop Drama!

Would it still be open source... (2, Insightful)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657093)

...if we didn't?

Especially on an issue where it really does matter.

Re:The best way to bring people to open source (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657165)

That's "free software", you M$ a$troturfer! $!

Re:The best way to bring people to open source (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657423)

This isn't about open source, this is about Free Software.

I will follow Stallman.

Re:The best way to bring people to open source (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657495)

Well, these are serious questions that we need to ask, and because they are so important, you can't expect everyone to immediately agree. It is better that we are debating the question, rather than simply following what one man has to say (regardless of the fact that I agree with what he has to say, it is still good to debate it).

Re:The best way to bring people to open source (1)

Znork (31774) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658013)

"is to constantly fight about it amongst ourselves."

It's called competition. And evolution.

And yes, in the long term, it actually will do the trick.

The free software community, through dissent and conflict, becomes infinitely adaptable to any and all niches. Compare with monolithic entities like Microsoft with much stronger direction; when they decide to go down a number of dead ends they end up with products like Vista, with no fallbacks, unable to fill new niches like the low-end sub $200 pc's.

I'll take dissent before cooperation for the sake of shutting up any day.

Does it matter anymore? (0, Troll)

DraconPern (521756) | more than 6 years ago | (#21656919)

Since all recent popular Linux distributions uses Gnome by default, does this really matter anymore?

Re:Does it matter anymore? (4, Funny)

renrutal (872592) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657041)

Not until KDE 4.1.

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

RailGunner (554645) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657051)

Since all recent popular Linux distributions other than OpenSUSE, PCLinuxOS, Mandriva, MEPIS, Knoppix, Freespire (Linspire) and Slackware, you mean?

GNOME is hardly the default, and trying to assert it as such is incorrect.

Ubuntu and Fedora use GNOME, but Fedora ships with KDE, and for the Ubuntu crowd there's Kubuntu...

Re:Does it matter anymore? (2, Informative)

varmittang (849469) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657259)

The two most popular distros in use today are Fedora and Ubuntu(Debian) and both use GNOME by default. Yes, there are a lot of other distros that ship with KDE default, but their popularity doesn't match what Fedora and Ubuntu have been able to carve out in the Linux Desktop market. Most people go with the default when installing those distros too, so GNOME has a high probability of being the most used Linux Desktop.

Re:Does it matter anymore? (2, Insightful)

RailGunner (554645) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657615)

but their popularity doesn't match what Fedora and Ubuntu have been able to carve out in the Linux Desktop market.

Funny, when I bought my mother-in-law a $300 Wal-Mart PC, it came pre-loaded with Linspire, a KDE distro.

I promptly removed it in favor of SimplyMEPIS, another KDE distro.

Here's a $199 PC, which runs Enlightenment. [walmart.com]

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

MBGMorden (803437) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657715)

Funny, when I bought my mother-in-law a $300 Wal-Mart PC, it came pre-loaded with Linspire, a KDE distro.
Funny, I don't think he ever claimed otherwise.

Are you going to posit that Linspire even comes close to matching the installed base of Ubuntu or Fedora? The bottom line is those Wal-mart PC's are NOT a significant source of existing Linux installs. Them coming with something other then GNOME is just not an issue. It's like jumping on someone for saying most cars are powered by gasoline by saying "Funny, I just bought an electric car from Bob's Who-ja-whatzit Electric Autos. And from YARC (Yet Another Random Company): Here's a hydrogen powered car! Take that buddy!".

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

segedunum (883035) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657911)

Most people go with the default when installing those distros too, so GNOME has a high probability of being the most used Linux Desktop.
Alas, that doesn't actually seem to be the case, and we've had a few desktop surveys over the past few years that have gone totally against this grain - despite some peoples' best efforts ;-). Additionally, the fact that people are still talking about KDE and KDE 4 still seems to be able to generate excitement for some reason means that something isn't right..

You know what? I just find it exceptionally sad when a new user comes into the open source community to look at what free desktops he/she can use, and the only reason anyone anyone can give him/her on various forums to use Gnome is "Oh, it's the default on all these enterprise distros that few people use and on Ubuntu [which for some unearthly reason is some kind of desktop benchmark for some people], so you're stuck with it." It really doesn't say much for, or give a terribly good impression of, the quality of free/open source desktops, and I'd say it's holding things back.

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

Ash-Fox (726320) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657989)

The two most popular distros in use today are Fedora and Ubuntu(Debian) and both use GNOME by default.
Distro watch shows the major distributions [distrowatch.com] to be:
  • Ubuntu (Gnome)
  • OpenSuSE (Gnome)
  • Fedora (Gnome)
  • Debian (user chooses)
  • Mandriva (Gnome)
  • Mepis (KDE)
  • Knoppix (KDE)
  • Slackware (has KDE packages, no Gnome)
  • Gentoo Linux (It's a trap!)
Gnome: 4 KDE: 3

I don't think the overall result is that bad for KDE.

But with Ubuntu, OpenSuSE and Fedora being right at the top, I agree that Gnome will likely be the most used Linux desktop environment in the meantime. However, with KDE 4obtaining native ports to Windows, OS X - that may end up changing things.

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

WhiteWolf666 (145211) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658373)

*shrug*

I think many, if not most, openSuSE users use KDE. SuSE was a KDE distribution for a long time, and most of the SuSE GUI tools are still KDE-centric.

Also, the official position [opensuse.org] of the openSuSE Community is that there is no "default" desktop environment:

What is the default desktop of openSUSE - GNOME or KDE?
openSUSE supports a number of popular desktop environments, including GNOME and KDE. During installation, the user is asked to choose between GNOME and KDE but no default is given. Both desktop environments are mature and feature-rich, which one a user chooses is a question of personal taste.


AFAIK, Novell/Commercial SuSE (influence of Ximian) trends towards GNOME, but openSuSE trends towards KDE. Both are pretty definitely "dual-desktop"

Re:Does it matter anymore? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21658497)

Sorry - Hate to say it, but Mandriva uses KDE by default. You can use Gnome, but it's not as developed and integrated as KDE...

You also forgot a very popular distro: PCLinuxOS. It is highly ranked at distrowatch. This one also uses KDE by default...

So if we re-arrange the outcome you get:

Gnome: 3 KDE: 5

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

10Ghz (453478) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658539)

OpenSuSE (Gnome)


The OpenSUSE FAQ says this:

"What is the default desktop of openSUSE - GNOME or KDE?
openSUSE supports a number of popular desktop environments, including GNOME and KDE. During installation, the user is asked to choose between GNOME and KDE but no default is given. Both desktop environments are mature and feature-rich, which one a user chooses is a question of personal taste."

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

rubycodez (864176) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657085)

really? This Kubuntu of mine doesn't look very GNOMEy.

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

adpsimpson (956630) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657141)

Since all recent popular Linux distributions uses Gnome by default, does this really matter anymore?

The only new linux distribution to default to Gnome and exclude KDE in recent years has been Ubuntu. The overwhelming speed at which Ubuntu has grown (I'm posting from Gnome/Ubuntu now) has largely been down to the development team going the extra mile to develop a truely user-friendly interface.

However, as with all open source projects, alternatives are available - Kubuntu, for example, or simply 'apt-get install kde'. Personally I have both installed and highly value the competition and choice between them.

So yes, it does matter - it is trivially easy for individual users to switch to another desktop. All the apps they have got used to will still work (I use mostly KDE apps). The decision for the developers may take more consideration, but the users will continue to use what each feels is most appropriate. If one drifts away from being truly free, the effects will ripple back upstream.

Re:Does it matter anymore? (3, Informative)

mhall119 (1035984) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657513)

However, as with all open source projects, alternatives are available - Kubuntu, for example, or simply 'apt-get install kde'.
For those interested, the way to get proper KDE support on a standard Ubuntu install is "sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop". This will include not only KDE, but also the standard Kubuntu applications and artwork.

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

jadrian (1150317) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657147)

By recent popular do you mean "Ubuntu"?

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

TheNinjaroach (878876) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657151)

Since all recent popular Linux distributions uses Gnome by default
Say what?

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1, Insightful)

ceeam (39911) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657153)

IMHO, they use GNOME by default in the vain hope that commercial software developers will have easier time releasing closed-source binaries for their distros (which is quite disgusting, of course). You need to buy a QT commercial license to do that stuff (at least the payments are used to support QT development). Anyway - few people _do_ that stuff. And I think that's basically the only reason GNOME is by default.

As for "all" popular distros, the word "commercial" is missing. Or at least "commerce-oriented" (and, yes, yes, Ubuntu is one of these). PCLinuxOS, Mepis are very popular and nice KDE-based distros. PCLinuxOS is particular, I find it has a healthy, free, even "scene"-like attitude to it.

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

ByOhTek (1181381) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657505)

except it's fairly easy to run a gtk application in KDE - and by fiarly easy, I mean as long as you have the libraries installed, it's no different than any other application.

So, to pander to the closed source devs, they'd only have to include GTK, and a set of default themes to make it look like their KDE setup.

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

gosand (234100) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657159)

Since all recent popular Linux distributions uses Gnome by default, does this really matter anymore?


Kubuntu

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

renoX (11677) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657457)

'By default' doesn't mean that Gnome is always used: at work we use RHE3, but a majority of users use KDE, not Gnome..

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657587)

By recent popular you pretty much mean Ubuntu, right? I think Gnome is chosen mostly because there's fairly little standardization compared to KDE and so easier to differentiate and add value. I've tried KDE on Debian, Kunbuntu and SUSE and KDE is pretty much all the same. KDE releases become vastly more important than distro releases. While everyone talks of KDE being more like Windows, in terms of consistancy KDE with their k* apps are more like OSX with their i* apps while Gnome is the windowsish one. Run KDE/Konq/KOffice vs Gnome/Firefox/OpenOffice and you'll know what I mean.

Besides, I thinl both are stronger for it, with something as intangible choice is good and there's nothing preventing them from stealing good ideas from each other. What corporations find as a downside is that Qt requires a licensing free for closed source, but I didn't see anything closed-source on Gnome I'd want yet so it's an empty threat. KDE is still plenty popular with users - I'm surprised it's held up so well waiting for KDE4. If KDE4 can deliver through on the functionality they've promised and at the same time expand their market to Windows, I see only sunshine not dark clouds in KDEs future.

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

segedunum (883035) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657661)

Since all recent popular Linux distributions uses Gnome by default, does this really matter anymore?
The relevant question(s) here is: "Since a handful of supposedly enterprise desktop distributions have defaulted to Gnome for a while, has this actually made any difference whatsoever to anyone using free desktops at all? If this is the case, why does anyone even talk about KDE anymore?"

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

miffo.swe (547642) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657877)

If KDE4 delivers half of what it promises this could very well be what tips things in favour for KDE. Gnome has not developed much in recent releases and is in some areas stagnated (nautilus, gnome-panel and for eg. the stupid register idiocy). Dont get me wrong, i like gnome but miquel and his bending over for Microsoft, mono and Gnomes spineless aproach to MS is driving me towards ANY other desktop.

Re:Does it matter anymore? (1)

msuarezalvarez (667058) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658235)

the stupid register idiocy

Would you please elaborate on that, I'm intrigued.

Sigh. (4, Interesting)

AdamWill (604569) | more than 6 years ago | (#21656931)

As was extensively explained in various GNOME places recently, Miguel is not GNOME, and has borderline zero impact or influence on GNOME at present (hence the best 'looks-serious' tag the author could find for him was "co-founder"; Woz was the co-founder of Apple, does that mean he's running iPod codec policy?) . Quim Gil is rather more directly involved in GNOME right now, but he also works for Nokia. He also clearly does not set Nokia's corporate policy. Therefore what he's doing on that bug report is reporting a corporate policy that stinks. This is obviously an uncomfortable position for him, but has sod all to do with GNOME.

Re:Sigh. (1)

segedunum (883035) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658047)

Quim Gil is rather more directly involved in GNOME right now, but he also works for Nokia. He also clearly does not set Nokia's corporate policy. Therefore what he's doing on that bug report is reporting a corporate policy that stinks. This is obviously an uncomfortable position for him, but has sod all to do with GNOME.
He's heavily involved with Gnome, and on a bug report within an open source project that is Gnome related he is regurgitating a corporate policy that is totally at odds with the free and open source world?

Methinks that there are too many corporate interests here that are at odds with the open source world they purport to want to be in, and that he, and some others, don't know how to separate the two.

Re:Sigh. (3, Insightful)

AdamWill (604569) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658559)

How can he 'separate the two'?

Nokia obviously does not want to support Vorbis. That's not Quim's decision to make. He can't change reality on the bug report and say "sure, Nokia will support Vorbis tomorrow, everything will be fine and dandy", because it's clearly *not going to happen*. But Nokia's policy is not GNOME's, and what Nokia does really has no implications for what GNOME does.

I really don't understand what you expect Quim to do on this bug report, or why you think it implies anything in particular about *GNOME's* policies, rather than Nokia's.

Old Stallman (3, Funny)

RandoX (828285) | more than 6 years ago | (#21656933)

Gnu drama.

This 'article' is bullshit flamebait (5, Insightful)

sayfawa (1099071) | more than 6 years ago | (#21656969)

Gnome does *not* support OOXML becoming a standard. The *only* thing they are doing with it is trying to make sure that *if* and when it becomes a standard that it's good enough and open enough for Free software like Gnome apps to able to implement it. But they are *not* helping to get it passed.

Furthuremore, this crap article praises KDE for backing ODF implying that Gnome isn't. Of course Gnome backs ODF.

Finally, look for Jeff Waugh's comments in the comment section of TFA to see how it really is.

Re:This 'article' is bullshit flamebait (1)

adpsimpson (956630) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657273)

I think the problem here is that people are getting justifiably twitchy about the shoulder-to-shoulder attitude that some companies in the Open Source world have taken with Microsoft.

Combine this with the fear of being bulldozered by a company which has, in the past, been known to bulldozer competitors, and you get sensationalist and unbalanced reporting of this sort.

If indeed the Gnome team are taking the "It's here to stay, let's see what we can do with it" line, there's justifiable fear that this will translate to the same level of co-operation that has been seen with cross-licensed patent agreements.

It would be interesting to know what the folk on other development teams are thinking - probably waiting for the storm to blow over while quietly working out how to best implement support for OOXML in their own products. Koffice, for example, MUST be working on a converter/importer for OOXML since, like it or not, it's going to be around for a while.

Re:This 'article' is bullshit flamebait (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657291)

Totally agree. Where in Behdad Esfahbod's response to Stallman [mail-archive.com] does it say that GNOME is actively supporting OOXML standardization? All Behdad says is that the Gnome Foundation will be implementing OOXML, he doesn't say anything about Gnome actively backing OOXML in the standards process. So, from where I sit, you're 100% correct.

Finally, as for Stallman throwing his weight behind KDE, do I need to remind anybody that Gnome is officially a GNU project?

Re:This 'article' is bullshit flamebait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657813)

I can't think of a higher form of "backing" a standard than an actual reimplementation. How else could I prove better that there is no way around it than by supporting it actively this way?
Seriously, Behdad needs a serious reality-check. Nitpicking about "wording" doesn't help here.

Re:This 'article' is bullshit flamebait (1)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658045)

Seeing as they're planning to implement it, perhaps they can provide even greater feedback as to:

a, Whether or not msoffice 2007 actually complies with the published spec.
b, What areas of the spec are insufficient to implement the format adequately.

Re:This 'article' is bullshit flamebait (4, Informative)

sayfawa (1099071) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657303)

There are so many TFA's. I had assumed by the /. title that the main one was this which I had read earlier:
KDE takes stand on OOXML; Gnome dithers [itwire.com] .

But I still stand by my comments. And here, just to cut to the chase, is one of Jeff Waugh's comments from the article linked above:

The GNOME Foundation is not in bed with Microsoft or Novell on this issue. Our statement is very clear about our attitude towards OOXML and our participation in ECMA TC45-M. We're there to ensure that we have sufficient documentation for FLOSS project to implement it. We're not endorsing, contributing to or developing the OOXML specification or its standardisation. (In fact, it has had a positive contribution to my work against OOXML locally...) Whatever happens with ISO, it's important for FLOSS products to implement it such that users have the opportunity to embrace Software Freedom without cutting themselves off from their own documents, or collaboration with their friends and colleagues. We don't have to like OOXML, Microsoft or the Microsoft/Novell deal to implement it, and have an open and pragmatic approach to delivering Software Freedom to as many users as we possibly can. We fiercely compete with Microsoft, and we're not about to give their monopoly a leg up by boycotting their stupid format. We want *MORE* FLOSS users, not fewer. There is a complete valid disagreement about the *perception* of GNOME involvement in TC45-M and how Microsoft might use it (and we'll make it very clear to national bodies and BRM delegates what our position is and why we're involved in the ECMA group), but nothing deserving demonisation of GNOME or suggestions that it has "sold out" to any corporation. That is simply not the case, and it is unnecessarily divisive to suggest so.

Re:This 'article' is bullshit flamebait (1)

renoX (11677) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657577)

>>The *only* thing they are doing with it is trying to make sure that *if* and when it becomes a standard that it's good enough and open enough for Free software like Gnome apps to able to implement it.>Of course Gnome backs ODF.

In thoughts only AFAIK: which Gnome component is going to use ODF? Do they have someone working on the standardisation board to ensure that ODF is really good?

IMHO, it's much more important to have a great ODF and a great support for ODF than Microsoft Office XML: so every efforts should be to ensure this, not to help Microsoft Office XML..

Re:This 'article' is bullshit flamebait (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657695)

"Of course Gnome backs ODF."

Not true, Gnumeric doesn't have a decent ODF filter, worst the filter for Microsoft OpenXML is in better state and more developped than ODF even if the specification for ODF has been published and normalized far before the other format.

Same for Abiword where the ODF support is awful but a lot word are done to support the non ISO format.

There are no Gnome office software who are supporting actively ODF!

grow a pair! (4, Interesting)

mseidl (828824) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657019)

For the love of god, why don't people have balls(women excluded)? I'm getting tired of people bowing down to pressure or being bought out. Doesn't anybody stand up for what they believe in anymore? I mean, way to go KDE. But, Gnome? I mean, as a community aren't we supposed to stand up for the FREE as in FREEDOM we claim that open source is? I mean, this isn't just the Gnome community, I'm talking about the community as a whole. We need to stop OOXML. It's a big bloated piece of crap, shilled out at the last moment simply because MS saw a threat. But this rant isn't even about OOXML alone. Just now Ogg was kicked out of the HTML5 spec due to pressure from Nokia and Apple. I mean, WTF! Ogg was a great choice, good quality, free as in beer, and free as in freedom. The best of both worlds.

Anyways, I'm done talking.

Re:grow a pair! (1)

caluml (551744) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657347)

why don't people have balls [wikipedia.org] (women excluded)?
Theirs are just inside, hidden away from view, and feet.

Doesn't anybody stand up for what they believe in anymore?
Sure, I'm sure it's great being homeless with a clean conscience.
However, Miguel does seem like a major sell out. I'm glad I don't use Gnome or Novell.

Re:grow a pair! (2, Funny)

0racle (667029) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657679)

Perhaps the GNOME people believe that they are not the people to decide how you use your system and therefore just provide tools to do what ever they think you might want to do.

Re:grow a pair! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657971)

Perhaps the GNOME people believe that they are not the people to decide how you use your system
*sigh* - mods are asleep, again. This is easily a +5, Funny.

miguel is a fauxking fountain of MiSinformation (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657025)

all of yOUR 'kings' are finks.

as opposed to becoming members of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate? really no contest/question?

we're intending for the nazis to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather'.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying [google.com]

the creators will prevail. as it has always been.

from previous post: many demand corepirate nazi execrable stop abusing US

we the peepoles?

how is it allowed? just like corn passing through a bird's butt eye gas.

all they (the felonious nazi execrable) want is... everything. at what cost to US?

for many of US, the only way out is up.

don't forget, for each of the creators' innocents harmed (in any way) there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/US as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile will not be available after the big flash occurs.

'vote' with (what's left in) yOUR wallet. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious corepirate nazi life0cidal glowbull warmongering execrable.

some of US should consider ourselves very fortunate to be among those scheduled to survive after the big flash/implementation of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate.

it's right in the manual, 'world without end', etc....

as we all ?know?, change is inevitable, & denying/ignoring gravity, logic, morality, etc..., is only possible, on a temporary basis.

concern about the course of events that will occur should the corepirate nazi life0cidal execrable fail to be intervened upon is in order.

'do not be dismayed' (also from the manual). however, it's ok/recommended, to not attempt to live under/accept, fauxking nazi felon greed/fear/ego based pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking hypenosys.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators. providing more than enough of everything for everyone (without any distracting/spiritdead personal gain motives), whilst badtolling unprecedented evile, using an unlimited supply of newclear power, since/until forever. see you there?

More weight to KDE (4, Insightful)

FutureDomain (1073116) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657035)

Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?

With Linus preferring KDE, could Stallman's support put more weight behind KDE? I'm rather surprised that the GNOME Foundation's decision. They could at least have kept their mouths shut instead of praising OOXML, which severely damages their credibility in the GNU world.

Re:More weight to KDE (1)

Trax (93121) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658523)

I'm tired of people making baseless and rather stupid assumptions. The GNOME Foundation is NOT, repeat NOT, endorsing OOXML! The GNOME Foundation is looking at OOXML pragmatically and working to make it more detailed and less onerous than it already is -- I don't see anything wrong with that.

I dunno. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657043)

Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?"

Will it matter?

RMS and the tinfoil hat (5, Insightful)

mlwmohawk (801821) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657073)

I am reminded of Henry Kissinger's famous quote: "Even a paranoid has some real enemies."

I appreciate RMS and his views. He is a pragmatic alarmist, he is playing the chess game that is computers several moves ahead of most people. That's why so many take his statements with a grain of salt, they don't see he has been "right," consistently, for over two decades, often years before the first real signs begin to show.

GNU/Linux and F/OSS have enemies. It is an undeniable fact. There are people working against us. One need only hop over to groklaw and see the black hand of Microsoft (and greed of course) guiding that whole thing. So, maybe we are paranoid, but even paranoids have real enemies.

I am really starting to believe that GNOME is a trojan horse, or at least some aspects of it. I don't trust Miguel de Icaza, he's either incompetent of a shill and he's potentially dangerous.

Re:RMS and the tinfoil hat (2)

adpsimpson (956630) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657395)

I am really starting to believe that GNOME is a trojan horse, or at least some aspects of it.

Whatever the motives of individuals behind the Gnome project, it has contributed one of only 4 fully fledged (only 2 free), stable and heavy-weight desktop managers around. Not only that but it has contributed a toolkit of the highest quality and literally hundreds of excellent applications.

Let's face it - just as KDE didn't die when gnome was founded in reaction to linking to non-GPL code, so Gnome won't die if some bad decisions are made.

Much more likely is that the environment will continue to be developed to an excellent level, mistakes will continue to be made and competition between the FOSS alternatives will continue to drive them ahead of the competitors.

Re:RMS and the tinfoil hat (2, Insightful)

Trax (93121) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657521)

Miguel De Icaza has not been active in the GNOME community for at least the last 5 years. So don't connect Miguel's actions and speech with the GNOME community.

As another post said read Jeff Waugh's comments in the previously mentioned article. Read before you assume.

Re:RMS and the tinfoil hat (3, Informative)

noldrin (635339) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658197)

I think this is the best analysis of RMS I've seen on Slashdot. RMS is fighting a principled struggle, it won't necessarily make him popular, but I thank him for doing so. I know when I met him and told him that I admired his work, he made sure to admonish me for not coding myself.

I think XFCE is about to eat GNOME's lunch. I just tried it again for the first time in several years, and wow has it matured. You can keep using the same GNOME applications and have nice looking GTK, but have an interface that's easy to use, feature rich, fast and it just works better.

Re:RMS and the tinfoil hat (2, Insightful)

christurkel (520220) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658529)

he's either incompetent of a shill and he's potentially dangerous.

I think he is naive; I honestly believe he thinks MSOOXML is a good thing, based on his experience with .Net and Mono, but the two are very different thing with completely different agendas. MS sees value in having .Net/Mono out there to further it's adoption. MSOOXML is tool for lock in, embrace, extend extinquish. Protect the Office monopoly.

Stallman backing KDE is a non-starter (1)

CodeShark (17400) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657125)

Given that the QT libarary is now dual licensed under the GNU GPL and QPL licenses which ended the controversy over licensing with the FSF, I don't think it's a matter of throwing "his weight" at all.

The folks governing GNOME needs to either decide to be free or not free, and if they chose "not-free" there's nothing to stop one of the rest of us from forking the project, starting a new project, or whatever. So RMS gets nothing from joining the conversation at all. That said, if Richard Stallman or the FSF was to basically slap Novell upside the proverbial corporate head with a "get with the program with Gnome/Ogg/etc." cluestick (communique), I wonder if there would be movement more than if one of us tried to do the same thing...

Tune In Next Week (-1, Troll)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657205)

Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?"


Will Richard Stallman shave and shower?

Will anyone care if Richard Stallman shaves, showers or throws his weight behind KDE?

Will Steve Ballmer finally find true love, or will he continue throwing chairs and trying to take over the world?

Will anyone even notice?

Tune in next week for the next exciting chapter of "Were Those The Days Of Our Lives?"

Re:Tune In Next Week (3, Interesting)

mlwmohawk (801821) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657449)

This is exactly the sort of thing the GNU/Linux, F/OSS people need to be careful of. These are serious matters, and this joker wants to ad-hominem RMS in an attempt to minimize the impact of his statements. Note, no refutation of fact, merely insults, childish ones at that.

Yea, maybe RMS's appearance is, lacking a better phrase, unorthodox, but his words and actions are the issues here. Stop being a child and focus on the subject, or is it your job to distract from the subject?

Re:Tune In Next Week (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21658329)

No one cares.

Really.

Re:Tune In Next Week (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658565)

Stallman may fancy himself some sort of holy man, but to be honest, he's a bit of a loon. To suggest that he's some sort of wizard whose magic touch will make all the difference is ludicrous.

We can only hope... (4, Funny)

gosand (234100) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657209)

Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?"


As a long time KDE user, I sincerely hope not.

Re:We can only hope... (1)

KingKiki217 (979050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657309)

Would you like to tell us why?

Re:We can only hope... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657803)

Because gosand hates freedom.

Totally unsurprising (0, Redundant)

ceeam (39911) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657219)

I guess we all - people who pay attention - knew for a long time that Miguel is Microsoft's shill. People who drink and laugh with people like Ballmer don't deserve much trust, IMO.

Idiots (0, Flamebait)

wasabii (693236) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657227)

Gosh. You guys are a bunch of angry morons. Life isn't about taking your ball and going home. It's about doing deals to gently move the status quo over to your side. Taking your ball and going home isn't going to actually SOLVE anything.

It is a sucky standard. Who cares? Not me. I'd sure rather it work than everybody cry about it.

Re:Idiots (4, Insightful)

Ash-Fox (726320) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657427)

Gosh. You guys are a bunch of angry morons. Life isn't about taking your ball and going home. It's about doing deals to gently move the status quo over to your side. Taking your ball and going home isn't going to actually SOLVE anything.
As far as I can see, the ODF ball is being given to everyone, including Microsoft. Except Microsoft doesn't want to play, which is normal.

They want everyone to adopt to using their ooxml ball, but they keep giving it as a flat ball to everyone and only they can pump it up. Not sure what Microsoft wants, but they're not exactly playing with anyone.

Re:Idiots (1)

SCHecklerX (229973) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657673)

It is a sucky standard. Who cares? Not me. I'd sure rather it work than everybody cry about it.


I'd rather people focus the energy on stuff that makes our software stronger and more appealing, rather than trying to implement ill-defined 'open' specs. Mono on linux, for example, is a travesty to me.

Journalese (1)

Morosoph (693565) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657321)

Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?
It's funny how in articles, the politics appears as primary, and policy secondary. Of course the politics is important, but surely the interesting question is that of freedom, rather than Stallman's partisanship?

It amuses me how so much journalism seeks to make the world a smaller place. There are bigger things than personalities.

Do I have the timeline right? (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657419)

1. KDE was good, but not free (Free? phree?) enough.
2. Gnome was established because we couldn't accept that un-free KDE?
3. KDE fixed its problems and Gnome became Microsoft's bitch
4. ???
5. Profit!!!

Re:Do I have the timeline right? (1)

erikvcl (43470) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657749)

You missed a step in there. The part about Gnome deteriorating into a bug-riddled slow unstable pile of crap. As a former Gnome user, I'm very happy I took the plunge and gave KDE a shot.

Summary is missing the last line: (4, Funny)

Mazin07 (999269) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657473)

Tune in next episode as exciting new revelations are unveiled!

The real question ... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657519)

Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE

Does anyone care?

Since GPLv3 Stallman has seemed less relevant than ever.

RMS quoted (1)

cbart387 (1192883) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657645)

From here [mail-archive.com]

Now look from GNOME/OO.o side: We are interested in implementing it, regardless of it being a standard or not.
Yes, but that doesn't mean we cannot denounce it!
Everyone is getting in a tizzy (RMS included) over this. Read what RMS says above. He's not above supporting OOXML to give users a choice. His point is that KDE has publicly denounced OOXML but Gnome has not. That's all.

FYI, just because you like some stuff that he has done, doesn't mean everything he says is gold. Just a little pet peeve of mine...

Could someone please explain... (4, Interesting)

bhunachchicken (834243) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657669)

... what Miguel de Icaza's obsession with shoving Microsoft technologies in to Gnome?

  1. .NET (Mono)
  2. OOXML
  3. ???

Is it to try and attract Windows developers to the Linux platform? Is it to ease transition from Windows to Linux? Is it to make it easier for Microsoft to threaten the entire community with patent infringement threats..? What is it?

Re:Could someone please explain... (2, Interesting)

katz (36161) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657859)

don't forget GNOME's Registrar, a concept copied from the Microsoft Windows' Registry...

Fortunatly (1)

ILKO_deresolution (352578) | more than 6 years ago | (#21657671)

The very nature of FOSS allows us to fork the project and do it the way we want...
Not that this is going to happen. This is a psychological war by Microsoft.
Have faith in the GPL! I bet Mr. Gate gets his kick off reading our reactions just
like a myspace fag.

KOFFICE? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21657947)

Wait, who actually uses KOffice, it's like worse than Open Office which usually comes in the same distros.

Is this actually important?

Take responsbility (1)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658177)

I will say yet again: I hope Miguel de Icaza takes responsibility when Microsoft's stranglehold over the open source software I like grows. Because he sure seems to be infatuated with the company and their products.

the whole thing is rather ironical (1)

porky_pig_jr (129948) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658179)

considering that GNOME was RMS's baby to start with. Which is something I hold against him. There are many factors which prevent Linux from being widely acceptable, but having GNOME vs KDE business belongs to the major one.

Confusion Part Two (4, Insightful)

ajs318 (655362) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658267)

Once upon a time, KDE was lambasted for using the not-Free-enough Qt libraries. There was a project to replace Qt and create a truly free KDE; but in the end, Trolltech released Qt under the GPL. And not the mealy-mouthed LGPL, like the GNOME libraries, which allows use in Caged software; but the full-on, not-sharing-is-stealing GPL. So the leeches still had to pay to use Qt in a Caged application; but if you played fair and wrote Free software, you could use Qt with the blessing of the copyright holders. (This didn't please the Windows fans. Windows users, raised on a diet of "illegally copying the Software is my way of Sticking It to the Man, and if you don't pay me $49 for this crapplication to do something petty that Unix has had since forever that I built with my pirate copy of Visual Studio, I'll turn off saving and bring up nag screens every five minutes", bitched loudly that there was no GPL Qt for Windows -- but the only thing stopping them porting it was the fact that the average Windows user would rather drown in shit than make the effort to swim.)

Now, the "freedom" to write Caged applications is a thorny issue. But I see it like this, and I'm sure RMS does too: in a nation where the ownership of slaves is forbidden, citizens tend to be freer on average than in a nation where the ownership of slaves is permitted. So KDE are actively promoting freedom, by taking a stand against OOXML. Novell and GNOME and Mono are getting rather too cosy in bed with Microsoft for comfort. It's very hard not to think about Microsoft pulling some kind of bait-and-switch operation which would put OSS users in trouble. If this happens, I think it's actually more likely that the Governments of the world would just pass Enabling Acts to annul whatever IP Microsoft are trying to abuse; but that's still a waste of taxpayers' money that doesn't have to happen, and by the time it gets to that stage the damage (in terms of unopenable public and private records) will be severe.

Not everyone is as responsible a citizen as you. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you, and just because you don't understand the importance of having access to Source Code doesn't mean it isn't every bit as big a deal, in its own right, as slavery.

Isn't it ironic? (1)

_narf_ (21764) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658527)

That back in the day... Gnome was championed for it's openness [slashdot.org] over the "evil" KDE for choosing to using encumbered libraries? (Anyone remember FreeQT? Or RMS Making noise about the whole thing? [linuxtoday.com] ) My how things change over time.

Tired of the Nonsense/FUD (4, Insightful)

apokryphos (869208) | more than 6 years ago | (#21658555)

I'm getting pretty tired of this ongoing OOXML issue; the FUD surrounding it is astounding. The article on itwire hasn't helped anyone since it's pretty clueless, looking for buzzwords and then reaching bizarre conclusions. Let's get a few facts down here:
  • GNOME (and Novell) do not support the standardisation of OOXML. They are both members of the ODF alliance [odfalliance.org] , both use it as the default file format, and if it was even remotely realistic to have a decent office product without OOXML support (where the Windows desktop is unfortunately in such an insane over-dominance currently), then they would of course be all for it.
  • The implementation of OOXML is all about interoperability. I don't see anyone (wrongly) trashing Samba as a project, and yet its existence and the effort to implement OOXML support is virtually identical in terms of free software.
  • You like software freedom and hate the software patent system? Great, so do I. Free implementations of proprietary solutions, though, are a good thing; not a single one of my friends are going to be using Linux if they can't submit their assignments to their lecturers. We need interoperability, to ease the transition for people coming from the proprietary world.
  • The KDE/Koffice developers issued a statement [kde.org] basically saying they didn't have the resources or the time to implement OOXML, and suddenly a lot of silly talk gets thrown at GNOME. If I volunteered to implement OOXML support in Koffice I doubt (i) that they would object, and for sure that (ii) any distribution would not include it.
  • Even if you dislike Jeff Waugh, it's pretty tough to find a rational basis for criticising him based on the podcast or his approach to the problem other than (i) not getting the GNOME statement [gnome.org] (again, which you really can't fault) out soon enough, or (ii) giving Roy the publicity he wants.
  • The itwire article plays Roy as some sort of victim in the podcast talk. That is ridiculous. Unfortunately -- and to the detriment of the FLOSS community -- Roy is an incredibly prolific, poisonous [google.nl] person willing to do or say anything that might cook up some self-publicity, and with an irrational hatred of Novell. And in fact on the contrary, Roy skipped around every question that was directly asked to him; instead opting to just give background on Microsoft's "evil" nature and talking about how bad OOXML is (both of which we palpably know).
  • Finally, even if you decide to ignore all the other above facts, please tell me why you're not also staging wide protests against OpenOffice.org or your distribution for including OOXML support, as well.
To save any comments of bias, I'm an ardent KDE aficionado.
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