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Opera Tells EU That Microsoft's IE Hurts the Web

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the ow-right-in-my-infrastructure dept.

Internet Explorer 338

kastababy writes "In yet another instance of up-and-coming browser developers fighting back against the Microsoft behemoth, the makers of Opera have filed a complaint with the European Union against Microsoft. In their complaint, they allege that IE's 77% market share abuses its dominant position by tying IE to Windows and its refusal to accept Web standards, causing significant interoperability issues. The complaint also requests that the EU's Antitrust Division force Microsoft to separate IE from Windows and accept several different standards, thereby resolving major interoperability issues and providing consumers more choice in the browser market." Update: 12/14 19:47 GMT by Z : We also discussed this yesterday.

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EUTells Opera... (1)

heauxmeaux (869966) | more than 6 years ago | (#21700904)

No Kill IE!

Re:EUTells Opera... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701020)

> No Kill IE!

"I'm a marketroid, not a developer!"

Re:EUTells Opera... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701274)

But can you cure a rainy day?

Dupe? (4, Informative)

gstoddart (321705) | more than 6 years ago | (#21700912)

Didn't we see this yesterday here [slashdot.org] ???

This is just sad.

Re:Dupe? (2, Interesting)

Archangel Michael (180766) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701122)

A comment about a dupe marked (Score:-1, Redundant), talk about irony.

Re:Dupe? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701192)

Posted by Zonk

Actually, I do think pointing out that it's a dupe is redundant.

Re:Dupe? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701194)

A comment about a dupe marked (Score:-1, Redundant), talk about irony.

Especially when, by timestamp, it was one of the first posts in the thread. :-P

Re:Dupe? (0, Redundant)

LordPhantom (763327) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701410)

I'm pretty sure I also saw someone tell this guy the same thing in the story yesterday......

Separtment of redundancy department (-1, Offtopic)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701130)

Only at slashdot would the first post be marked as redundant! Mods, be aware that I'm usually invited to metamoderate several times a day. The above post wasn't "redundant" it was "offtopic".

Mod this post offtopic as well or I shall taunt you again, silly moderators!

-mcgrew

Ok, silly sketch police here this is just getting silly now, you're all under arrest for... oh bloody 'ell

Re:Separtment of redundancy department (0, Redundant)

justin12345 (846440) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701468)

Given that /. is the only website with a -1 Redundant option, you're right.

Re:Dupe? (5, Funny)

IdahoEv (195056) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701150)

Didn't we see this yesterday here???

You must be new here.

Re:Dupe? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701190)

In a yet new and exciting episode of Moderation, the post calling the new article a dupe, was marked as "Redundant".

What is probably more interesting, there is no mention of term "dupe" in original 407 comments [slashdot.org] .

Opera? Cry me a river... (1)

El Lobo (994537) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701450)

If people are not using it much is because:

1- Their aweful move of making it adware..., I mean... like we don't have enough ads on the sites...

2- Their aweful interface... first it was some kind of MDI abomination... Now they have a poor attempt to use tabs

3- Theit poor support for plug ins.

In the same article they kind of blame IE for their lack of success. They should rather look are Firefozz to see how to success by own merits and not by criying....

Great (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21700916)

Remind me why we care what Europe thinks about the internet again?

Re:Great (1)

wattrlz (1162603) | more than 6 years ago | (#21700950)

It's not so much that we care as that they're saying what's on everybody's mind. Suddenoutbreakofcommonsense.

Re:Great (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701032)

Internet? this isn't about the internet, jsut the software used to access it and that can be regulated easily. Doesn't need to be airtight since it's only about removing IE's advantage, not about preventing the use of IE completely.

Simple (1)

RotateLeftByte (797477) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701090)

There are more Internet users in Europe than in the USA.
That is why.... Simple isn't it.

The EU ( not all European Counties are members, Norway, Switzerland, Serbia etc) has a bigger population that the US + Canada.

Re:Simple (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701282)

Who gives a shit? It's not theirs to change.

I'm sick of this anti-American bullshit in Europe. If they hate it so much and want out that badly they - with the zillions of users they claim they have - can just make their own network and stop piggybacking US technology.

Re:Simple (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701504)

Wow...just wow...

you're a fucktard

Re:Simple (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701546)

Why is there only a -1 Troll? The above definitely deserves a +1 Troll. I actually briefly felt the rage of a billion immigrants well up within me.

In other news... (3, Funny)

Recovering Hater (833107) | more than 6 years ago | (#21700926)

...Fire burns and water is wet.

about time (5, Interesting)

pkadd (1203286) | more than 6 years ago | (#21700960)

Microsoft is the one company that comes up with new standards, most of them poor. However, they are also the ones who are the worst at following well established standards, as well as adapting to new commonly accepted ones. For example, when do you think IE will support SVG without any 3rd party plugins?

Re:about time (4, Interesting)

Chabil Ha' (875116) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701118)

SVG is almost on the bottom of my wish list. How 'bout meeting the CSS 2.1 spec without having to implement any hacks? I'd be plenty happy with just that!

Question [slashdot.org]

Answer [slashdot.org]

Re:about time (-1, Flamebait)

Arthur B. (806360) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701126)

What, no native SVG support? About time they get sued for it.

Re:about time (2, Funny)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701162)

For example, when do you think IE will support SVG without any 3rd party plugins?

What do you think is taking 3D Realms so long to release Duke 4ever? They really NEED MS to support SVG as the game just won't play well without it.

Re:about time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701170)

"...when do you think IE will support SVG without any 3rd party plugins?"

Um, that's a tough one. How about, never!

Re:about time (4, Insightful)

diskis (221264) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701298)

Oh, standards indeed. Would you like me to inform you on how incompatible microsoft is with microsoft?
Let's limit us to address books for example.

Outlook express 4 and 5 not compatible:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/244459 [microsoft.com]

MS outlook to MS spam software, not compatible:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/179962 [microsoft.com]

Outlook E supports folders in address book, but not exporting folders:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/241875 [microsoft.com]

That was only from the first result page using keywords address book import error... If they can't standardize on a way to store contact information, can you even claim that microsoft makes *standards*? There is nothing standardized in that company. Show me a single nontrivial webpage with CSS that looks the same in IE 5,6 and 7 WITHOUT any nonstandard hacks. Even when following Microsofts own guidelines, or software that is not possible.

Re:about time (5, Insightful)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701424)

And MS has decided to go with the MS Word HTML rendering engine for Outlook 2007. What a terrible piece of crap that is. Just when we thought they were making some headway with IE7, they go and pull this stunt. I'm not the biggest fan of HTML email, but making a move like this is just terrible.

Re:about time (1)

cyfer2000 (548592) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701456)

Never, IE got VML [w3.org] already. But to be honest, I like VML more than SVG.

This message is posted using Opera (0, Troll)

Arthur B. (806360) | more than 6 years ago | (#21700964)

And it will be my last using Opera.

Re:This message is posted using Opera (2, Funny)

Buelldozer (713671) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701178)

That's okay, I've installed Opera on two additional computers and a mobile device to make up for it. I'm also going to give my brother in law some Wii points so he can get Opera for his console.

Re:This message is posted using Opera (1)

Joe Jay Bee (1151309) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701228)

Congratulations, you win the world award for spite; not only are you going to spite someone you've never met, you're going to spend money to spite them too! Fantastic. You should get a trophy.

Also; OT, but "spite" is definitely one of those words which sounds weird when you say it loads of times.

Re:This message is posted using Opera (1)

Buelldozer (713671) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701264)

No applause necessary for my masterful display of spite! :D

In all seriousness I already AM an Opera user. Deploying it to my two new workstations and new BlackBerry 8830 would have been part of my standard "end user kit" anyway.

The Wii browser, well, my Bro-In-Law wants it and Xmas is coming up so why the heck not?

Re:This message is posted using Opera (1)

Arthur B. (806360) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701392)

Yeah but I was a very awesome user of Opera, your two computer mobile device and brother in law are far to make up for it. In fact, unless you manage to package Opera with Storm, there's not much you can do.

Waaambulance (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21700970)

Opera's developers need to admit that their "standards" are nothing but the constructs of the companies who failed to challenge IE so they took their ball and went home. "I'm going to invent my own internet. That'll show those meanies"

Re:Waaambulance (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701094)

When did the W3C try to challenge IE? Also how is this a fair competition when one browser ships as the default for 90% of the PCs out there just because it's bundled and welded into the OS they come with?

Re:Waaambulance (4, Interesting)

lwsimon (724555) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701242)

Wrong. MSIE has always been a driving force behind and an early adopter of web standards - they just don't seem to be able to finish, and never go back and fix their old stuff. IE isn't a money-maker for MS, so they dont' throw money at it. IMHO, they should open the code and let the community have at it, with them for oversight. MSIE is a very visible part of Windows, and leveraging the community like that to polish their image would be a brilliant move.

Re:Waaambulance (4, Informative)

Kelson (129150) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701244)

Opera's developers need to admit that their "standards" are nothing but the constructs of the companies who failed to challenge IE so they took their ball and went home. "I'm going to invent my own internet. That'll show those meanies"

You are aware that Microsoft is a member of the W3C [w3.org] , right? And that they contributed to the development of such standards as CSS2? And that Microsoft pledged to support these standards back in 1998, and yet somehow their competitors support considerably more parts of that spec than they do? (I suspect ceasing all development other than security fixes for 3-4 years had quite a bit to do with that.)

A bunch of companies didn't get together and say, "We don't like how Microsoft does the web, let's design another one." A bunch of companies including Microsoft got together and said, "Here's how we're going to design the web," Microsoft signed off on it, and then went off in their own direction.

Hey, that proves nothing :P (1)

alexhs (877055) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701592)

That's the kind of things that can happen when you're your own main competitor.

It's perfectly plausible that Microsoft got fed up with Microsoft and joined the W3C as a consequence.

Re:Waaambulance (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701630)

Microsoft signed off on it, and then went off in their own direction.


Someone posted what I thought was a rather insightful comment the other day pointing out that Microsoft will never adhere to "standards," since the majority of computer users will be using their software by default and will assume that it's every other browser that is "broken," or it's Openoffice.org's fault that the MS Word document they're try to open isn't displaying the tables correctly.

So I'm not surprised Microsoft went off in their own direction with regard to the W3C, just as nobody will be surprised when documents saved in the OOXML format by Microsoft software don't act as expected when opened in Openoffice.org, for example. People will say Openoffice.org is shit, and decide to stick with MS Office because it "just works."

Re:Waaambulance (1)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701352)

Why do you say that, Mr. Ballmer? HEY PUT THAT CHAIR DOWN!!!

Problem in Accepting Standards (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21700974)

I think it would be great if IE at least tried to follow web standards, but forcing them to adopt them is hard to enforce, as no current browser (that I'm aware of) follows the standards 100%.

But in IE's case, it seems almost to be a complete disregard for the standards.

Re:Problem in Accepting Standards (2, Insightful)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701016)

They could at least be in the same ballpark as other browsers...
And should definitely be required to fix bugs (bugs defined where behaviour differs from the published standard) for free and within a reasonable time frame.
Perhaps make them implement any standard feature which is implemented by at least 2 other browsers.

Re:Problem in Accepting Standards (-1, Troll)

CaseCrash (1120869) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701156)

Perhaps make them implement any standard feature which is implemented by at least 2 other browsers.

This is retarded, this is like forcing a car maker to include ipod connections and controls in their cars because other major companies are doing it.

It is absolutely ridiculous to assume that they should be forced to comply to any standards at all. It is a product that you are not forced to use. If you like caramel, then buy a candy bar with caramel, but don't try to force the more popular candy that doesn't include caramel to change.

You want standards compliant? Use Opera.

Re:Problem in Accepting Standards (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701234)

This is about content producers you ignorant dolt. They don't have the option of changing the user's browser and most users only have that broken piece of shit that is IE. In order to serve most customers they have to create a completely mangled website just so IE breaks it just enough to look right. In other words, you are forced to use IE.

Re:Problem in Accepting Standards (2, Insightful)

mikiN (75494) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701500)

You are making the classic mistake of comparing goods and services where choice has little or no consequence to utility value with those which have come to be regarded as (standardized) utilities. Whether your car has an iPod connection or not doesn't change it's utility in taking you from A to B, whereas different electricity companies each using different mains plugs, voltages and AC frequencies would severely impact the utility of your laptop (assuming it didn't come with a Christmas tree of power plugs and a universal charger).

The WWW has come to be regarded as a utility for all practical economic purposes, so requiring different browsers to be standards-compliant is not at all illogical.

Re:Problem in Accepting Standards (0, Troll)

Lulfas (1140109) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701270)

Why should they have to be? If they want to leave it as a buggy interface that doesn't work with everything, that's their decision. There is no reason for a governmental agency to step in to argue with a private business about a non-critical sector to public defense or safety. Why is some 1% Browser getting to use a government agency to help make up the fact that their browser isn't liked by the common people?

Re:Problem in Accepting Standards (1)

Zebra_X (13249) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701372)

Yeah how about firefox....

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9458 [mozilla.org]

That is the bug for inline-block support. A very BASIC part of the CSS standard. For example it is useful for making a span tag retain a fixed predetermined width.

It works in every. other. browser.

Not only that - the bug has a 10 year history.

Re:Problem in Accepting Standards (2, Informative)

Kelson (129150) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701440)

That is the bug for inline-block support.

Yes. And it's marked as fixed. Firefox 3 will finally have this. You can check out the beta if you want.

Re:Problem in Accepting Standards (1)

liquidpele (663430) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701576)

Yea... it's *really* beta too. I tried it yesterday and CNN.com showed a news title in Windings!! I'm not joking. It was pretty funny.

Re:Problem in Accepting Standards (1)

mstahl (701501) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701382)

Perhaps make them implement any standard feature which is implemented by at least 2 other browsers.

That's a pretty good idea on the surface, but just like adhering to the published standard I think it'd be hard to enforce. Decoupling IE from Windows would be a huuuuuuuge step; Microsoft abandoning it would be an even better step. What would replace it, though? I think that's the biggest problem: the fact that IE is so deeply tied into Windows that no browser could at this point take its place and it can never be removed without serious changes to the way the operating system works.

Of course, I seem to recall other antitrust suits way back when that did enjoin Microsoft against those sorts of shenanigans. What happened to those? Am I making stuff up? Am I on crazy pills?

And, in yet another instance of duplicated posts, (-1, Offtopic)

SlashThat (859697) | more than 6 years ago | (#21700988)

we are reading yesterday's news.

And, in yet another instance of duplicated posts, (0, Offtopic)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701236)

This is the third time this comment has been posted. Oddly this one is offtopic while the first one was modded "redundant" *head asplodes*

Re:And, in yet another instance of duplicated post (1)

farkus888 (1103903) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701290)

I actually gave opera a try yesterday because of this articles first round on the /. mainpage. nothing to do with the politics, just wanted to try it out because its free [as in beer] and cross platform. the browser itself seemed pretty solid compared to other browsers out of the box capabilities. it was fast and lightweight and the phonebook is kinda cool. however I found "content blocker" to be an annoyance now that I am used to adblock plus keeping its list up to date for me. the ability to control scripts on a domain by domain basis like noscript allows seemed not very intuitive if its even possible. the ability to transparently force all gmail links to use https is nonexistant. for those 3 reasons I am back to firefox after only an hour or so. if you are using IE or no plugins in firefox its much better. I however am addicted to noscript, adblock plus, and customize google and couldn't find a way to mimic the features in those plugins that I use regularly.

Re:And, in yet another instance of duplicated post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701604)

...the ability to transparently force all gmail to use https is nonexistant..

Out of curiosity, how do you do that in Firefox?

Re:And, in yet another instance of duplicated post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701324)

I think Zonk himself is moderating over this article.

Opera (0, Flamebait)

Punk CPA (1075871) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701006)

Up and coming since 1994? How far and how slowly do they have to climb? No offense, but Opera's chief mission in life seems to be making it slightly more complicated to write HTML, CSS, and JavaScript for cross-browser performance.

Re:Opera (1)

grahamd0 (1129971) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701038)

And their market share makes Safari look like a viable target platform.

Re:Opera (2, Insightful)

Kelson (129150) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701124)

Opera's chief mission in life seems to be making it slightly more complicated to write HTML, CSS, and JavaScript for cross-browser performance.

s/Opera/Internet Explorer/ and I'll agree with you.

Re:Opera (2, Insightful)

Average (648) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701144)

Opera's chief mission is mobile platforms. There's nothing even in the ballpark on Symbian or Windows Mobile.

Re:Opera (4, Informative)

nick.ian.k (987094) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701184)

Are you using an insanely old version of Opera, or are you of the delusional "IE dictates the standards, screw everything else" crowd? I ask because I can't see any other reasons why you'd suggest that it makes cross-browser testing painful. The last few versions of Opera have been wonderful in terms of adhering to W3C standards. I'm not an Opera fan by a longshot -I find the name annoying, I have a fairly severe loathing for people who tout it as the second coming, and it doesn't have Firebug- but testing in it is part of my QA cycle, and generally speaking, if markup validates, things tend to render as expected in Opera.

Decoupling IE and Windows... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701058)

would make it kind of irritating to get any browser. You can't really tell them they have to provide a browser written by a competitor, so how would people go to websites to download the browser they want?

Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (2, Informative)

Kelson (129150) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701154)

You can't really tell them they have to provide a browser written by a competitor, so how would people go to websites to download the browser they want?

That's where the OEM comes in. Decouple IE from Windows, and the OEM is free to install IE, Firefox, Opera, whatever.

Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (5, Insightful)

Joe Jay Bee (1151309) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701276)

Sure, and the beige box builders get a browser how then?

I, personally, have no qualms with Microsoft shipping IE with Windows. It is their product, after all. BUT they should give OEMs the option to strip it out and replace it with Firefox/Opera/Safari/K-Meleon if they so desire. Which, really, is what this is all about.

Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (2, Insightful)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701524)

"ftp ftp.mozilla.org". That's how I always download Firefox on my Windows machines. That way I never have to run IE.

Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (1)

nine-times (778537) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701534)

Sure, and the beige box builders get a browser how then?

They should, at the very least, make IE an optional installation and provide the ability to uninstall it after it has been installed. Since they're considered a monopoly, I don't think it would be too off-base to require them to provide at least two alternative browsers with the Windows install disk.

Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (1)

Kelson (129150) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701558)

IMO, the way to go would be for Microsoft to just make IE an optional component. That way it's still on the install disc for people building their own systems (assuming they haven't already grabbed an installer for some browser via another computer), and it's easy to leave it out and put something else on instead.

Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (1)

Sark666 (756464) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701588)

I dislike microsoft for a lot of things, but coupling IE isn't one of them. I don't think it's bs that it is well integrated into the OS. Just stick to standards. And I don't see what would really motivate OEMs to bundle a different browser.

And on the other side of the fence, try and remove konqueror from kde.

Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (1)

lwsimon (724555) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701180)

I don't think they mean "don't ship it with Windows." IE is inseperable from Windows. It is not possible to uninstall it, to my knowledge. I think they are trying to say that it should be a seperate program from the OS, not something that it wholly depends on and cannot be removed. I won't comment on the ethical issues surrounding the whole thing, but it would be convenient if that happened. Implications are interesting though --- what happens when someone wants the file manager seperate? What they're realyl trying to do here is force Microsoft to redefine what an OS is. MSIE certainly does hold back web standards, but not because its MS, so much as because its closed-source and on a long release schedule. If MS opened development on IE, Firefox and Opera would suddenly lose 90% of their userbase.

Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701272)

MS gets the option: Either no browser or a program that downloads and installs the browser the user chooses. If they break the latter to favour IE in any way, slap 'em with a heavy daily fine until they fix it. Shipping Windows with no browser would be a pretty bad idea.

You're mis-understanding the issue.. (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701294)

It doesn't mean not ship with a browser. It means the ability to un-install/get rid of IE without breaking windows so an OEM can for example do a deal with Opera to have their browser as default instead of IE.

Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (1)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701306)

MS could simply supply Firefox, the adware version of Opera, and any other free browsers along with its decoupled IE. When installing Windows the user would have the choice of browsers, including no browser at all, as not all computers need to be on the internet. You could also uninstall any of them at will should decide to buy the 4 CD box set MEGABWOWSER.

Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (1)

mstahl (701501) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701426)

Easy. Just have them provide IE, then force them to open up to other companies (like Opera, Firefox, etc.) that can pay them a reasonable fee to include their browser with the operating system. This way you don't get a bazillion browsers included on the desktop of the PC, but you still have open competition. The fee should be "reasonable" as in "reasonable enough that open-source operations like Firefox can afford to pay it".

Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (1)

SuperCharlie (1068072) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701536)

Seems like there are in general 2 kinds of people buying a PC/Laptop.. those with a clue, and those without.

For those with a clue, we either build em ourselves or we walk through the wizard picking our options. We should be able to click Firefox, IE, Opera or whatever flavor browser the distributor feels good with, or None if we want, or all for that matter as we go through the setup to buy wizardry.

The clueless should click a box that says I dont know.. feed me what you like.

Why should it be different than say.. Mcafee/Norton? It shouldn't.

The REAL problem is the unclean masses not knowing what an OS is.. imho. It IS NOT the pretty you see on the screen. It is the underlying foundation. Windows explorer, network neighborhood, the "Start" menu.. all NOT OS.. but ya.. MS and Apple too I suppose have waved their hands and tada.. there is no OS without GUI and since we have GUI.. how about we GIVE you all these applications so no one else has to bother making any..

creators tell US that we're hurting everything (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701078)

yet, most of US appear to not know, or care?

some memories we'll dream of forgetting;

for example; the insidious attempts by the felonious corepirate nazi execrable to block the suns' light, interfering with a requirement (sunlight) for us to stay healthy/alive. it's likely not good for yOUR health/memories 'else they'd be bragging about it?

we're intending for the nazis to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather'.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying [google.com] [google.com]

meanwhile, the life0cidal philistines continues on their path of death, debt, & disruption for most of US;

gov. bush denies health care for the little ones

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/bush.veto/index.html [cnn.com] [cnn.com]

whilst demanding/extorting billions to paint more targets on the bigger kids

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/12/bush.war.funding/index.html [cnn.com] [cnn.com]

all is not lost/forgotten/forgiven

whilst (yOUR elected) president al gore (deciding not to wait for the much anticipated 'lonesome al answers yOUR questions' interview here on /.) continues to attempt to shed some light on yOUR foibles;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3046116.ece [timesonline.co.uk] [timesonline.co.uk]

still making his views known worldwide, whilst many of US keep yOUR heads firmly lodged up yOUR infactdead.asp(s) hoping (against overwhelming information to the contrary) that the party LIEn scriptdead pr ?firm? fairytail hypenosys scenario will never end.

for each of the creators' innocents harmed in any way, there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/us, as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile, will not be available after the big flash occurs.

'vote' with (what's left in) yOUR wallet. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious corepirate nazi glowbull warmongering execrable.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators. providing more than enough of everything for everyone (without any distracting/spiritdead personal gain motives), whilst badtolling unprecedented evile, using an unlimited supply of newclear power, since/until forever. see you there?

whois it that said that trolls cannot evolve?

Been a while since I've heard of "Opera"... (-1, Flamebait)

xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701116)

In yet another instance of up-and-coming browser developers fighting back against the Microsoft behemoth...


I think it's more a case of Opera being pissed that it's not funded with Google money like Mozilla Firefox is. Up-and-coming? I think Opera's time has long passed.

...the makers of Opera have filed a complaint with the European Union against Microsoft.


What, wasn't their mommy available to cry to?

If "developers" are going to "fight", how about developing something the market cares about instead, eh?

Re:Been a while since I've heard of "Opera"... (2, Interesting)

Buelldozer (713671) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701216)

If there is a finer mobile browser on the market I have yet to experience it. Additionally, can you name another browser with supported releases that run on any web enabled device from game consoles to personal computers?

Re:Been a while since I've heard of "Opera"... (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701316)

What, you expect them to create an OS, take a majority share of the market and then bundle their own browser with it just to play on even footing with IE?

Do you think that if Windows didn't come with IE that anyone would voluntarily pick IE?

Re:Been a while since I've heard of "Opera"... (2, Informative)

nine-times (778537) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701482)

I think it's more a case of Opera being pissed that it's not funded with Google money like Mozilla Firefox is.

Wait, so Opera is pissed at Google and Firefox, so their solution is to sue Microsoft? Oh, yeah, and who said Opera doesn't take money from Google?

If "developers" are going to "fight", how about developing something the market cares about instead, eh?

Maybe they'll appeal to the market once the market is actually choosing the best browser instead of having IE forced on it?

Dual-system regulation (0)

QuickFox (311231) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701134)

There should be regulations stating that whenever a computer is sold with a pre-installed operating system, at least two different systems must be installed, such that the user can easily choose one or the other at power-up.

Exceptions might be made for very low-cost machines.

Re:Dual-system regulation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701202)

So while current Tivos come with just Linux, you're going to make it so that they have to buy another OS to put on it too? Ouch. I guess putting NetBSD on it won't be too hard, but now they have to write a filesystem handler for that OS, etc. You just made things get really expensive for developers.

Good luck convincing Apple. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701334)

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'm actually stupider for having read it.

Jesus H Christ, do you people listen to yourselves sometimes?

I use Camino. . . (0, Troll)

fanhack (1194715) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701218)

I've always been under the opinion that the largest companies in an industry create the standards? I understand that IE isn't a particularly 'safe' browser, but isn't that more because it makes more sense for hackers and whatnot to go after IE users because they account for a larger portion of the market share?

Opera is shit (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701222)

The EU should find them for releasing such a crappy piece of software.

Or at the very least, for wasting their time pretending to be of some importance.

Yawn... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701226)

Newsflash: people can download other browsers. Stop crying about MS you pansies.

Work to Change it (2, Informative)

zip6 (962224) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701254)

Really, it all starts with getting rid of the damned thing in the first place--End 6! [end6.org]

Re:Work to Change it (1)

Kelson (129150) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701376)

Really, it all starts with getting rid of the damned thing in the first place--End 6!

Hey, thanks for posting that. I've seriously been planning to set up an "upgrade or switch" page focusing on IE6, and it looks like you (or whoever built the site, if it's not you) have beat me to it. I'm not thrilled about the big annoying pop-up method, though.

Bookmarked!

Re:Work to Change it (1)

zip6 (962224) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701484)

Yeah, it's the initiative of myself and a few others. The popup in indeed annoying, but basically the only thing that I can think of to get people to finally dump IE6! I can't believe that some of the sites I run still have somewhere around 50% usage of that hunk of junk. So, it's time to be annoying and it is only in IE6 that people see that; not even in IE7, so it's very, very focused. Glad you approve though.

Opportunity (1)

Akzo (1079039) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701302)

It looks like Opera sees an opportunity to make some money. Forcing Microsoft to adhere to standards is a good idea, but removing IE from Windows will leave users without the ability to browse the web without using command line FTP to first obtain a browser. Opera wants users to either buy a copy of Opera or force Microsoft to licence their web browser as a replacement.

Re:Opportunity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21701486)

You mean the browser they give away for free for Windows, OS X, and Linux? Hell, I'll buy a MILLION copies today before lunch! Total cost to me? $0.00 for the browser, but I'll have to spend a little on storage space ...

Re:Opportunity (1)

Kelson (129150) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701492)

removing IE from Windows will leave users without the ability to browse the web without using command line FTP to first obtain a browser.

Not necessarily. OEMs could (and most likely would) still install a browser, and the actual complaint cites pre-installing alternatives as another valid remedy.

Opera wants users to either buy a copy of Opera...

I take it you missed the news that the desktop version of Opera has been free-as-in-beer for the last 2 years.

they spoke on behalf of ALL developers ! (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701364)

its refusal to accept Web standards, causing significant interoperability issues.
you cant imagine how many problems this creates for web development/software houses, AND customers/clients/users.

Why separate? (1)

GottliebPins (1113707) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701432)

So when is Apple going to open up and let people run OS X on whatever hardware platform they choose? Why is it OK to tell Microsoft they can't include their own browser in their OS and yet Apple can tell you you must by their hardware to run their OS? Windows and OS X are both very restrictive.

So.... (1)

davidsyes (765062) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701442)

Operatic. I hope this brings about an Operatic deneument to the internet exploder...

(and, to dupes on Slashdot...)

Microsoft is a world wide monopoly... (2)

Undead Ed (1068120) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701466)

What everybody seems to misunderstand is that as a world wide monopoly, Microsoft is supposed to act in a responsible way so as not to inhibit the growth of competition. Unfortunately, that is exactly what Microsoft does at every turn.

By denying access to it's communication protocols, Microsoft inhibits competition for network services.

By creating media formats that are secret and proprietary it inhibits competition for media creation and playback.

By creating a browser that is non-standard it skews the entire browser market and online experience.

By creating document formats that are proprietary with unpublished protocols Microsoft effectively locks customers into a continuous cycle of purchases once again locking out competition.

That is why Microsoft was found guilty of being an aggressive predatory monopoly. The only reason Microsoft didn't have to face any consequences is because the Bush administration was flush with Microsoft dollars when they came to power.

Microsoft must be held to a higher standard of conduct because of it's monopoly market condition. Unfortunately, Microsoft uses it's vast wealth and power to stifle competition at every turn. Whether it's a children's learning tool in Nigeria or gaming a world standard or a groundswell of support for Linux in China, Microsoft attempts to suppress competition with bribes and corruption.

I sincerely hope the EU takes their head off because we sure can't rely on the Americans to do the right thing.

Ed

Dupe! Awesome! (1)

sootman (158191) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701496)

No, seriously--this is great! This looks interesting but I'm mainly interested in the discussion here. (I've got my ideas; I'm curious how other people see it.) It just so happens I was pretty busy yesterday and didn't catch this story. Now I don't have to wait an hour for there to be a good number of +5 comments--I can just check out yesterday's! Thanks, Slashdot!

Dupes: they're not a bug, they're a feature! :-)

My opinion, in case anyone cares: I dislike MS and IE as much as anyone else here, but I think Opera is full of shit on this one.

Re:Dupe! Awesome! (1)

sootman (158191) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701544)

PS: the funniest part is... if MS did make a feature-full, standards-compliant browser, wouldn't that lower Opera usage?

But... (1)

m4g02 (541882) | more than 6 years ago | (#21701570)

I agree with improving the browser and following the standards, but why ask to untie Windows and IE?, what about MacOS X and Linux? Linux and MacOS X are slowly getting market share from Windows and seems like this isn't going to stop, so why should Microsoft sell an OS without a web browser, why punish a company out to extinction? Is just because it isn't European? I understand Opera asking to make IE standards complaint, but what business do they have with the OS?
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