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Windows Home Server Corrupts Files

timothy posted more than 6 years ago | from the handy-for-plausible-deniability dept.

Data Storage 459

crustymonkey points out a ComputerWorld article which says that "Microsoft Corp. has warned Windows Home Server users not to edit files stored on their backup systems with several of its programs, including Vista Photo Gallery and Office's OneNote and Outlook, as well as files generated by popular finance software such as Quicken and QuickBooks." Crustymonkey asks Don't back up your files to Windows Home Server, as recommended by Microsoft themselves? I'm not exactly sure what the point is in having a home server if you can't back up files on it."

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Obvious Answer (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830164)

"I'm not exactly what the point is in having a home server if you can't back up files on it."

Profit

Re:Obvious Answer (4, Funny)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830244)

Dude, you have to spell it out or you'll be modded to oblivion. Here's how this thing works, now pay attention.

"I'm not exactly what the point is in having a home server if you can't back up files on it."

1. go to store
2. buy MS open server
3. Install files
4. Back up files
5. ????????
6. PROFIT!

Re:Obvious Answer (5, Funny)

snowraver1 (1052510) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830334)

It's a feature.

Re:Obvious Answer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830496)

Want to make sure hackers can't steal your personal info, and identity?

See Microsoft is becoming more security aware.

English, mofo... do you speak it? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830528)

There's a difference between "backing up" and editting files on the server. So when one opines "I'm not exactly what the point is in having a home server if you can't back up files on it."... it shows they don't understand that difference.

Now an actual valid complaint would be what good is having a file server if you can't STORE files on it... but that's a world of difference between simply backing those files up.

I have a feeling this problem will be fixed in less time than it takes Apple to shut down a blogger.

Re:English, mofo... do you speak it? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830578)

Didn't it take over a year to shutdown think secret?

What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (0, Offtopic)

roblarky (1103715) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830172)

What happened to the Best Free Games Story?

Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830202)

Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830276)

Anyone want to do a Slashcode mod to auto-mod anyone using a mini-URL? Or even better, follow the link to its destination. If it's a Minicity link AND the user is anonymous, auto-ban them for a week.

Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (1)

trolltalk.com (1108067) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830568)

"If it's a Minicity link AND the user is anonymous, auto-ban them for a week."

s/auto-ban them for a week/beat them to a pulp/gi;

There, fixed that for you.

Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (1, Offtopic)

liquidpele (663430) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830368)

It's a myminicity link! Mod down!

So far, I've counted 3 myminicity accounts spamming slashdot:
spx2.myminicity.com
fohootville.myminicity.com
budgieton.myminicity.com

Motion Twin is the company that makes the product, email them and complain about the accounts here:
contact@motion-twin.com

Also, if slashdot would follow redirects on links and display the final destination domain after the link, that would be great.

Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830472)

I'm confused by your sig. Are you saying that, for example, if someone where mugged at gunpoint they would be for gun control ("if I had a concealed weapon I could have defended myself") or against it ("more strict gun control laws and that punk wouldn't have had a gun to mug me with") ?

Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830628)

"if I had a concealed weapon I could have defended myself"

If you are mugged at gunpoint and have a gun tucked away, how are you going to reach for it without getting shot?

Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830702)

I'm saying people that are for gun control start wishing they had a gun when, for instance, their wife is attacked or their house is burglarized and they don't feel safe in their own home anymore. Similarly, people against abortion suddenly see the other side of the fence when their 14 year old gets pregnant. I'm not really for either side of either issue, I just find the arguments lacking when people discuss their views on the subjects.

My last sig mentioned the brain slug planet, so I thought I'd go for something a little more serious for a while :)

Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (1)

AvitarX (172628) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830848)

Except in reality you are twice as likely to shoot a friend or family member than defend your home with your home defense gun.

Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830750)

No. It's a humorous comment on the difficulty of convincing anyone to change their mind about either gun control or abortion using logical argument. People decide these two issues emotionally. If you weren't a baby-killing gun nut, you would have understood that.

Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (1)

xSauronx (608805) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830740)

Also, if slashdot would follow redirects on links and display the final destination domain after the link, that would be great.

only the technically inclined would be likely to do that...

Hello.....Captain Obvious?!? (1)

fataugie (89032) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830190)

Don't tell me everyone is asking that question.....just because it's a server doesn't mean you don't have to back that up as well.

Re:Hello.....Captain Obvious?!? (1)

ILuvRamen (1026668) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830692)

okay it says " not to edit files stored on their backup systems" so more like everyone should be asking why the hell would you edit files in a backup anyway. You back up files and then leave them there, not edit them with software. Anyone who edits the files in their backups directly is asking for trouble.

Re:Hello.....Captain Obvious?!? (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830860)

Well... you could store your files on the "more robust" storage server to begin with. Assuming that this product can even manage RAID5, that might be a better option. You might even be able to access your files regardless of which workstation you happen to be using.

That's kind of the point of having a "server" in the home.

Vista users are safe (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830204)

They can't copy files to anywhere...

WOW (0, Redundant)

RealRoadKill (554583) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830208)

not to be the grammar natzi.. but damn reading that summary hurt my head.

Re:WOW (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830268)

not to be the grammar natzi..

Apparently, also not a spelling nazi...

Re:WOW (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830422)

Nor punctuation, capitalization or writing-coherent-sentences nazi.

Re:WOW (1)

RealRoadKill (554583) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830444)

I never claim to be able to spell.. :))) that's why the fact that it hurt my head was impressive! -RealRoadKill

Re:WOW (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830490)

Not to be a grammar fascist, but damn your comment just blew up my irony-o-meter. I hope you're glad.

Re:WOW (1)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830614)

Irony: That thingy your mommy makes your shirties flat with.

One wonders...... (4, Interesting)

8127972 (73495) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830224)

.... If there's a user friendly alternative to Windows server for Joe Enduser? I run a Debian box with Samba on a computer that does hardware RAID 1 for my file sharing needs (I also have an SCP turned on so I can shove files onto it from outside my network too). But that's not something that I can suggest to my friends and family. So what can I suggest to them that is as "user friendly" as Windows Server?

Re:One wonders...... (1)

JamesP (688957) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830294)

Let's see

NAS
Older versions of Windows (Windows 2000 or XP in an old machine. And I have seen people with XP in a Pentium 233 w/ 32Mb of memory as their file server / P2P app machine)
Even configuring a Samba share with point & click distributions is not that hard (for someone who knows and wants a file server)

Re:One wonders...... (2, Insightful)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830454)

Maybe you should check the features of WHS before you claim that NAS is an adequete replacement.

Re:One wonders...... (3, Informative)

BVis (267028) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830522)

Yeah, most NAS units don't corrupt your backups if you change the working versions. Clearly Microsoft is the leader in adding valuable features to its products.

This could potentially be the "my dog ate my homework" for the 21st century. "I did my homework, but the power went out before I could save it, and my backups were all corrupt!"

Re:One wonders...... (1)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830562)

Ya, because NAS' let you connect to your workstation from anywhere.

Re:One wonders...... (1)

russ1337 (938915) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830754)

Ya, because NAS' let you connect to your workstation from anywhere.

Maybe not, but Hamachi [wikipedia.org] does, very nicely.

Re:One wonders...... (1)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830854)

And that runs on the NAS? Leave it to /. to miss the point..

Re:One wonders...... (1)

Tony Hoyle (11698) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830778)

A lot of the new ones do... dedicating a PC (especially one capable of running Vista) to data storage when there's cheap NAS devices that can do the same thing is silly.

Re:One wonders...... (1)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830880)

Please show me a NAS that allows me to remote desktop to my workstation. Who said anything about dedicating a Vista capable PC to WHS anyway?

1.0 GHz Intel Pentium 3 (or equivalent) processor
512 MB RAM
80 GB internal hard drive as primary drive
100 Mbit/s wired Ethernet

Ya, heafty requirments indeed. Again, please go read the features of WHS, its a bit more than being a NAS.

Re:One wonders...... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830312)

Look into the LinkSys NSLU2 Network Storage device. It's about the size of a cable modem/router and has an ethernet port, 2 usb ports, and a web front end for samba. I reflashed the firmware with debian, but it still works as a samba server (among other things).

A Good DVD Writer For Most People (3, Informative)

NeverVotedBush (1041088) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830328)

I would suggest a good DVD writer. There is lots of room, you can schedule backups, and all the people need to do is to remember to put in a new DVD every week or on whatever schedule you/they set up.

As to Microsoft screwing up yet again, it's just funny. Very funny.

Think Allen has rubber chairs to throw around now?

Re:A Good DVD Writer For Most People (5, Insightful)

schnikies79 (788746) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830460)

A dvd-writer isn't feasible to backup nearly 300gb.

Re:A Good DVD Writer For Most People (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830542)

You have 300gb of new files every week? The MPAA is looking for you.

Re:A Good DVD Writer For Most People (2, Funny)

vain gloria (831093) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830716)

You have 300gb of new files every week? The MPAA is looking for you.

What, so they can drown GP's independently produced film-making in Coke ads, jaggy CGI explosions and piss-poor Nu Metal cover versions? Oooh, they really are evil, aren't they?

Re:A Good DVD Writer For Most People (1)

schnikies79 (788746) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830680)

No, I have 300gb once and small updates every week. I'm not doing a 300gb with dvd's even the first time.

Re:A Good DVD Writer For Most People (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830664)

What software is good for scanning your file system for recent changes, and making incremental backups to DVD? Then, when your hard drive dies, how do you find the disks with just the files you need?

Backing it all up to DVD is not as simple as it sounds, but if you have solutions for these problems I'd be most interested in hearing them.

Re:One wonders...... (3, Interesting)

Hatta (162192) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830346)

You can try FreeNAS [freenas.org] or Open Filer [openfiler.com] .

Konqueror does sftp://, smb:// etc with ease. (0)

twitter (104583) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830392)

The user has to get the openbsd server package now, but there's nothing easier than dragging and dropping files with Konqueror. You can also do Samba through Konqueror but it's slower than sftp. No SCP is required because Konqueror give the user a simple user password challenge and will remember the result. If you want to get fancy with backups, give them grsync.

Re:Konqueror does sftp://, smb:// etc with ease. (1)

trolltalk.com (1108067) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830616)

"The user has to get the openbsd server package now, but there's nothing easier than dragging and dropping files with Konqueror."

Definitely. Open up 2 copies of Konq. On one, have your local filesystem. On the other "fish://ip.to.remote.system". Drag your files between the 2 systems as required.

They don't have linux installed on their local machine? Give them a bootable cd/dvd/thumbdrive/whatever.

Re:One wonders...... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830432)

So what can I suggest to them that is as "user friendly" as Windows Server?

You can suggest waving a bulk tape degausser [datalinksales.com] around the drive bays of their computer. That will apparently achieve the same effect as using Windows Home Server.

Ready to use boxes (4, Informative)

DrYak (748999) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830478)

I run a Debian box with Samba on a computer

Similar setup here, too.
In fact, running a Linux + Samba + SSH/SFTP/SCP + RAID ( + Optionally NFS ) seems the best solution available.

But that's not something that I can suggest to my friends and family

You can't suggest them to install and configure Debian all by themselves.

BUT

There are virtually hundred of "network enclosure" : Small empty external cases, with a 1Gbps ethernet and a small ARM chip running Linux+Samba+Apache, almost ready to use, you only need to buy disks and mount them in (several computer part shop even propose you to sell a pre-assembled such solution).

Linksys, D-Link and Netgear are a few of the constructor whose name jump to my mind right now, but there are virtually hundreds of them.

The best part is :
- These box have Linux pre-installed on their flash memory. So no difficult configuration is required for the average users. Maybe just help them to configure secure access and configure the router if they also want to have access to the files from outside home. The computer part shop often can do the hard-drive mounting and deliver a ready-to-use product.
- Almost any of those box runs Linux, so their firmware is modifiable and you can find several guides explaining how to run external software or even installing additional software into the firmware. MLDonkey [sf.net] is such an open source eD2K / Bittorrent / etc. client which is also precompiled for embed Linux.
Not only the enclosure is useful for average user, it may be useful for lazy power-users who don't want to assemble their own server or prefer silent and energy efficient servers.
- A lot of those boxes have USB2 "Host" connectors, so you can connect additional HDD to the server. But as it is Linux, a lot of different and interesting usage can be found be power users like plugins webcams, or use the box as a print server in addition to a file server.

So yes, you can't easily tell your friends to *install* Debian all by themselves, but you can get them to buy an enclosure with Linux pre-installed. (And if they upgrade their box to a newer one, you can recycle the old one into some fun project thanks to Linux' openness and available USB2 connectors).

Re:One wonders...... (1)

corychristison (951993) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830520)

I have a similar setup as well... I have a box crammed full of 6 hard drives... 4 x 500GB in RAID 0 as one partition for storing all of my media. The others are 2 x 320GB in RAID 1 with 3 partitions (/, /boot, /data, no swap) for my backup purposes. I use Linux all around, so I just setup NFS Shares & wrote some archival scripts utilizing FAM to simplify it for myself. I know this solution is not for everyone, but it works great for me. I have an automated system monitoring some directories (the portion using FAM) and others require forced updates issued by a command "backup ${BackupDirName}"

Re:One wonders...... (1)

omeomi (675045) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830652)

.... If there's a user friendly alternative to Windows server for Joe Enduser? I run a Debian box with Samba on a computer that does hardware RAID 1 for my file sharing needs (I also have an SCP turned on so I can shove files onto it from outside my network too).

I do the same thing, although with Ubuntu, and minus the RAID. It wasn't all that hard to set up. I forget if Samba comes with Ubuntu by default, but even if it doesn't, Synaptic makes it easy enough to install. If somebody sold Linux home-server boxes or something, it could easily just be a matter of plug it into your network, turn it on, and call it done.

Re:One wonders...... (1)

kcredden (1007529) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830802)

I just finished up my own storage server about 2 weeks ago. The solution? 1 cheap-o computer (I had the parts left over) w/2 DVD-RW readers (again, used) so I can rip audio Cd's, DVDs and transfer files off them in general, as well as make DVD backups.) Threw in 2 512g HDs (bought them), an older backup motherboard, old video card, a LAN card, $10 keyboard, $5 mouse, an old 15" CRT monitor (had laying around) a USB 2.0/High speed card (CRITICAL!!!) An easy to write .BAT file that does a RAID backup of changed files, before it shutdowns the computer, and a copy of Win2k w/SP4. Get laplink or PCLinq USB 2 USB connection software/cable, if needed an USB extension cable as well. Install Win2k on about 5g partition, put on PCLinq (what I use now) and devote the rest of the HDs to storage. Connect your main system to the storage server (above) and when you want to transfer files back and forth, turn on the storage server, bring up PCLinq connecting software, and transfer files. It works great! I'll be doing some refining of this soon. Replacing the 15" monitor with a 15" LCD or at least a cheap LCD monitor. 15 or greater inches. Then use USB or Firewire bridge so I can connect this to other systems in the house via the house' CAT5 that's in the walls. I'm also thinking of putting in some sort of *good* searching software, such as google search or such. We'll have to see though. Who needs MS's bloated, and expensive server software? (That also damages files) Oh the cost of the storage server? About $300 (for the HDs) I've had PClinq for a year, and the equipment was cannibalized from other older systems. If it wasn't for the HDs it'd been free. But if you need to buy a new CPU system, even a cheap-o dell would work. As long as it can run Win2k, Linux, etc, it can be made into a storage server. Even Joe-end user could do this. I can share the source code to my shutdown .BAT script via e-mail request. Just put it on the desktop, click it when you want to shut the computer down, and it does all the work. Remember: KISS - keep it simple, stupid! - KC

Re:One wonders...... (1)

Znork (31774) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830876)

If you're after something more advanced than a bog standard cheapo NAS box, maybe Openfiler [openfiler.com] would be what you're looking for. It's quite a bit more capable than a cheapo NAS or WHS, but at least it's web manageable.

Correction (5, Funny)

Rolgar (556636) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830240)

Microsoft Home Server Converts Files to a Secure Format for Your Security.

Microsoft will gladly sell you a one use un-convert license when you need to see the data.

Re:Correction (2, Funny)

mcrh (1050542) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830748)

Better yet, have people bid for each file. Obviously, the highest bidder would be the one with most need for the information, presenting a free-market solution to computer security.

Curious... (4, Insightful)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830248)

The blurb says that it corrupts files on the backup when you try to edit them...

Isn't part of the point of a backup that you DON'T edit the backup media?

I can look at this two ways... MS didn't test this enough because it didn't occur to them someone might do something so ridiculous...

OR...

Not only did MS create the misfeature that is editing backups, but they screwed it up too...

Am I still feeling charitable from the holiays? Hmm...

Re:Curious... (5, Informative)

UnknowingFool (672806) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830402)

From what I understand from the article is that if you save certain file types to a Home Server for backup purposes from a workstation, you can corrupt them if you edit the original files and try to back them up onto the server again. Well that defeats the whole purpose of having a backup system. Like photos for example. If I backup all my photos onto the Home Server, then I decide to change the contrast on a few of them on my everyday PC, I can corrupt the ones I've saved on the Home Server if I save over the original backups. Then if I decide I need space on my PC and delete the ones saved there, my edited photos are inaccessible if I didn't save them anywhere else.

Re:Curious... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830576)

I don't agree with this, although it's poorly written so we are both probably wrong and there's a third explanation. Probably because if UnknowingFool is right, they have a piss-poor delta update implementation, and that scares me.

I read this as if you edit a file in one of the shared folders on the server, it gets corrupted. As geminidomino read it. But Home Server isn't just a backup location - it's supposed to allow you to share documents so that you can access them from multiple computers. It makes sense to allow Wife and Husband to access Quickbooks files from different computers, and edit them right on the server. That way you skip the copy local, edit, and copy remote that normal people would do. The fact that torrent files are affected makes me think direct editing is the problem, because torrents typically get allocated then updated with data.

Either way, this error gives you a good chance to say "egregious" and not sound like a tool.

I don't know if it allows access from outside the network, but if Wife spends $6000 and doesn't update Quickbooks soon, Husband is going to spend the same money on hookers and beer and then they get home and realize they spent $12,000 and laugh about it and promise to do better. Just kidding, someone ends up wearing a knife that may not match their shoes.

Re:Curious... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830586)

No, it's only if you edit the file directly from a share.

Re:Curious... (5, Informative)

phuul (997836) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830604)

Well since the article NEVER mentions backup I'm trying to figure out why the blurb and everyone is going on about backups being corrupted. What is actually happening is that there is a bug in WHS folder sharing. If you edit files with particular programs that exist on a WHS share the files will be corrupted.

Here is the KB article http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/946676/en-us?spid=12624 [microsoft.com]

It too doesn't mention using WHS to backup but does say that you should backup the possible affected files before storing them on WHS.

Re:Curious... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830678)

this is why time machine is the BEST backup solution available, forget linux+samba, windows, hp solutions, ibm's, amanda, just buy an apple server and get a user friendly-sexy experience.

Other things you shouldn't do.... (1)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830718)

  • Label your CDs and DVDs by scratching the name on the back back with a nail
  • typing DELTREE /Y \*.* from the C:\ prompt
  • Put your minidisks in the A: drive (I once actually had one poor sod put a floppy in the tape backup slot. Much hilarity ensued)
  • Put your floppies on the refrigerator with a magnet (mostly obsolete now)
  • Leave the server out in the rain
  • drop a big rock on your foot
  • throw chairs

Re:Curious... (1)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830642)

Am I still feeling charitable from the holiays? Hmm...

As it's Microsoft we're discussing here, shouldn't that be "chairitable?"

Re:Curious... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830714)

It looks like it corrupts files edited over the network, whether it's a "backup" or not.

LOL, and my sig comes through again! (1)

DRAGONWEEZEL (125809) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830770)

This is too perfect an opportunity!!!

C SIG

Never mind 'Home' Server... (1)

Bazman (4849) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830254)

MS also don't recommend you put your Outlook Personal Folders on a server (or 'network drive') either, which in this case could be an "Enterprise" server...

Yes really: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/297019 [microsoft.com]

Re:Never mind 'Home' Server... (1, Insightful)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830502)

Ya, because a PST being written and read over a network is slower, and if the connection goes down, the file may be corrupted... just like working with any other file over a network. From the link:

This is not efficient on WAN or LAN links because WAN/LAN links use network-access-driven methods, commands the operating system provides to send data to or receive from another networked computer. If there is a remote .pst (over a network link), Microsoft Outlook tries to use the file commands to read from the file or write to the file, but the operating system then has to send those commands over the network because the file is not on the local computer. This creates a great deal of overhead and increases the time it takes to read and write to the file. Additionally, the use a .pst file over a network connection may result in a corrupted .pst file if the connection degrades or fails.

So your KB link isn't quite as suprising or damning as you were hoping it would be..

Re:Never mind 'Home' Server... (2, Interesting)

igb (28052) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830544)

Oh please. ``a, because a PST being written and read over a network is slower, and if the connection goes down, the file may be corrupted... just like working with any other file over a network.'' That might be the gospel according to Redmond, but for those of us outside the horrific networking decisions Microsoft have made, terabyte-class Oracle databases work just fine over NFS. Remote access via GigE to dedicated filers is faster than local spindles unless those spindles are in exotic raid arrays, and why would a `network' be any more likely to induce corruption than, oh, a fibre channel network?

Re:Never mind 'Home' Server... (1)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830822)

Huh, that's funny, because I remember files being corrupted (and my workstation crashing) when my home directory was over an NFS mount and the NFS server went down.

But please, go ahead yank that cable out of the box hosting the NFS share which you are storing your database on an tell me how it goes.

Re:Never mind 'Home' Server... (1)

DaveWick79 (939388) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830842)

This has nothing to do with networking decisions, it has everything to do with the format of the data file and the way in which the client software writes to the file.

Terabyte class Oracle databases have error routines written into the front end, and roll-back of transactions on the back end, which makes certain that if a network error occurs, the entire transaction is rolled back and either tries again or sends an error to the client. If you want this type of functionality in Outlook, you aren't using PST's anyway, you're using Exchange. Many other programs also do not account for the disappearance of the source file while it is being written. If a file is partially written when the network goes down, any app's file can be corrupted no matter the server OS.

Oh and there is no way that remote access to files over GigE is faster than local file access unless you are talking about enterprise class servers, which most people don't have in their closets at home. Actual throughput over GigE is only going to be 400Mbps anyways, and if you have more than one user on that connection like you do in a corporate setting, that bandwidth has to be shared between everyone.

Re:Never mind 'Home' Server... (2, Insightful)

whoever57 (658626) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830816)

I have always thought that MS take the "personal" part of "PC" too far -- to the extent that MS does not "get" networking.

In the *nix world, it is common that one can sit down at *any* machine in the network, log on and one's desktop/files, etc are just the same (assuming the same OS). This has never been true in the MS world. MS requires you to have *your computer* and to always use *your computer* if you want to have any semblance of a familiar desktop/files. Even with server stored profiles, the files are copied to the local machine and copied back again at the end of the session. This is a wildly inefficient method -- really a hack layered on to achieve the semblance of providing a real floating profile. If the profile is large, the copying can take a long time or be impossible (because of lack of disk space).

In fact, for most Windows users, the idea that one can sit down at another machine and access one's files, just the same as if one were logged into one's primary machine is totally alien. It is amazing how much MS has trained people to accept poor features.

To be fair (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830260)

You wouldn't edit a file you backed up to tape, would you? Or CD?

You should restore a backed-up file before editing it.

Re:To be fair (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830408)

Well, I did. But I worked for Enron.

Sensationalist Headlines? Not this time... (5, Insightful)

FredFredrickson (1177871) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830272)

So I read TFA thinking, so there's a glitch when windows has virus X on wednesdays only, and only in regions that have the chinese language pack, and only on systems with 64-bit version installed with a sound blaster driver installed.

But for the first time ever, slashdot's title isn't sensationalist. Microsoft simply states, yeah, for no apparent reason, files are getting corrupt using our operating system.

Jeebus F'n H Chroist! You had one job to do, and you screwed it up royally.

It's one thing when some obscure feature doesn't work correctly. It's another thing when a fundamental operation of your software hasn't worked for A YEAR since it came out.

IT'S AN OPERATING SYSTEM. Your job is to interface the hardware with the user and software.

*sigh* Bring on the "my linux-distro of choice doesn't do that, that makes me right all along" comments.

Re:Sensationalist Headlines? Not this time... (1)

yanyan (302849) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830360)

Slackware doesn't do that, that makes me right all along. ;-)

It's probably due to ADS (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830434)

When I submitted this story last week, I mentioned that it was likely due to the way it handles ADS (NTFS' Alternate Data Streams) on shared folders. Fortunately, there are only so many programs that actually use those.

That said, yeah, I wouldn't use Windows for a server, either. It's just not reliable enough, given that you can do better for free.

Re:Sensationalist Headlines? Not this time... (2)

smidget2k4 (847334) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830494)

Gentoo/Kubuntu/Ubuntu/DSL/RHL don't do that, that makes me right all along! :-)

This is version 1.0 people (4, Funny)

Anita Coney (648748) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830280)

Everyone knows you have to wait until at least version 3.1 to get anything useful out of Microsoft.

Re:This is version 1.0 people (2, Funny)

FredFredrickson (1177871) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830414)

In this case, for it to be a useful home server, we'll have to wait for 3.11

Yeah, right. (1)

Erris (531066) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830564)

Windows is about 20 years old. You would think they could copy files by now.

W007 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830650)

Twitter's sock puppet Erris has negative karma.

Re:W007 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830798)

And I wonder how long I will be without mod points for helping make this happen. ;)

Point (2, Insightful)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830310)

I'm not exactly what the point is in having a home server if you can't back up files on it."

It's to show another failure at Microsoft in their core markets, while they pursue TV, Magazines, Video Games, etc.

Put your trust in Microsoft, because they're gonna kill off every other competitor anyway

Article not very clear (1)

phorest (877315) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830330)

Why would anyone edit the backed up files anyway, sorta defeats the purpose if they are stored copies of backed up files from the clients. Just edit the files on the client and let them backup again. No need to store data on a share... /sarcasm

Obligatory link to KB article [microsoft.com]

Re:Article not very clear (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830724)

Why would anyone edit the backed up files anyway, sorta defeats the purpose if they are stored copies of backed up files from the clients. Just edit the files on the client and let them backup again. No need to store data on a share... /sarcasm

Just when you think you've developed an idiot proof application, along comes a better idiot. /cynicism

Re:Article not very clear (2, Informative)

pavera (320634) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830786)

From a later post, I guess Windows Home Server *automatically* backs up clients that are connected to it, so you have your pretty little PC you open up your pictures and crop them... and whatever, Home Server at some point will back that up (corrupting the files in the process).

There's already a patch available.... (1)

esmith512 (1197203) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830338)

...from Debian, SuSE, Red Hat. Just insert one of their DVDs and select "Install".

Re:There's already a patch available.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830400)

I followed your instructions and I think something went wrong. All I see is a $~ and what looks like a command prompt. What did I do wrong?

Is there any way for me to uninstall this in a hurry? I probably shouldn't have started with the production servers, but what's done is done. My boss is going to kill me if he finds out about this so if anybody could help me fix the problem in the next 30 minutes I would be much obliged.

Please help! (posting anonymously for obvious reasons)

WARNING! DO NOT CLICK LINK! (3, Informative)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830354)

The link from the summary leads to... damn it's so bad I can hardly say it. Worse than tubgirl and goatse combined.

As the blank screen fails to load, an ad pops up. Then a "greeting page" appears on the blank page ("greetings from our advertisers")

Then I notice the "click here to ignore this greetings page and enter ComputerWorld, the world's worst IT magazine".

Of course I quickly hit the "back" button so I wouldn't be assaulted with a million ads and a paragreph of content-free lead-in text before "click here for next page".

Honestly, guys, can't you find a better link [pcworld.ca] ? Oh shit, the only two that Google News shows is ComputerWorld and PC World.

Why is it that the very WORST sites on the internet are IT sites? It's embarrassing! And people wonder why, if you RTFM, "ewe muss bee knew hear". We KNOW BETTER! We know what is ready to assault us if we dare click a link to an IT site!

Recommended solution (5, Funny)

stevenp (610846) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830452)

According to the MS knowledge base entry:

"Make sure that you have a backup copy of any important program files before you store these files on a system that is running Windows Home Server."

In other words, use something else to backup the files first if you intend to backup them with Windows Home Server ;-)

what's wrong with MS ? (1)

ianare (1132971) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830464)

Why didn't they upgrade to the latest version of Samba ?

Re:what's wrong with MS ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830812)

Why didn't they upgrade to the latest version of Samba ?
Samba infringes on their imaginary property, or so they claim.

let's try to understand this one.... (1)

acvh (120205) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830482)

Microsoft says: "When you use certain programs to edit files on a home computer that uses Windows Home Server, the files may become corrupted when you save them to the home server."

1 - If there is a Home Server somewhere on my network that I save files to, does that make MY computer "a home computer that uses WHS"?
2- Does "edit files on a home computer" mean opening a file that is ON my PC, or merely opening a file WITH my PC?
3 - Is WHS a backup system, or a file server? If it is a file server, then I have an expectation that I can edit files that it serves me.

The summary, indeed the entire article, leaves many unanswered questions.

Re:let's try to understand this one.... (2, Interesting)

UncleTogie (1004853) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830682)

From Microsoft's site:

When you use certain programs to edit files on a home computer that uses Windows Home Server, the files may become corrupted when you save them to the home server.

Programs affected: Windows Vista Photo Gallery, Windows Live Photo Gallery, Microsoft Office OneNote 2007, Microsoft Office OneNote 2003, Microsoft Office Outlook 2007, Microsoft Money 2007, and SyncToy 2.0 Beta. Additionally, there have been customer reports of issues with Torrent applications, with Intuit Quicken, and with QuickBooks program files. Our support team is currently trying to reproduce these issues in our labs.

Finally, they say:

This issue may occur because of a recently discovered problem with Windows Home Server shared folders and with certain programs.

Fraggin' scary.

perhaps this is why.... (1)

Sfing_ter (99478) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830518)

Perhaps this is one of the reasons MS decided to acquiesce in the samba matter :) they need help fixing something they broke so badly they don't know what to do... perhaps it feels as if chairs had wings aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhahahhah ahhahahaha.

Windows home server disappointing. (2, Informative)

RightSaidFred99 (874576) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830592)

I use it. It backs up your machines automatically, so editing files it "backed up" is a non sequitur. It would be like telling Linux people Amanda is corrupting files, so don't edit files it backs up (you people still use Amanda?).

In this capacity, the problem would be with using WHS as a file server. I must say this is nail #2 in the grave of my disappointment with WHS. My first problem with it is that there is a bug in performance - reads are fine, but writing data to a WHS share is unacceptably slow. Some will claim it's Vista autotuning, or differential copy, or something else but it's demonstrably just piss-poor performance on WHS.

Overall the product is a good idea, it's just poorly implemented at present. If they fix this new bug and fix the performance issues, I'd actually be pretty happy with it.

NAS and Locks (1)

Applekid (993327) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830632)

IMHE (In My Humble Experience), file locks are glitchy and don't really work right on network storage (please please provide counter-examples if you have them). If one writes an application that makes heavy use from write-only locks, shared-read locks, and other file system locks provided by Windows, yeah, I can see some corruption possibly happening when the network store refuses to honor those requests. Also NTFS-specific file system conveniences (sparce-file options, alternative data streams, etc) generally get hung out to dry across a network.

I doubt those bugs are so much with Home Server as it is with those specific applications.

niggerdicks sliding up your rectum (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21830686)

niggerdicks.

Why is everything across the network "special?" (4, Insightful)

dpbsmith (263124) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830758)

Having come from a DECNet background, when I first encountered PC networking I was completely flummoxed by the situation.

MS-DOS and Windows users seem to take it for granted that a file that is across the network is accessed via different APIs, different user interfaces, and has generally different properties from files that are stored locally. In the MS-DOS days they were always mumbling about The Redirector. Why does a file need to be REdirected across the network? Why isn't it just directed, the way it would be directed to a disk volume or a floppy or what have you?

It isn't so long ago that most Windows programs couldn't even reference cross-network files in a straightforward way in a file open dialog. You first had to assign a "drive letter" and "map a network drive." (And, of course, all references to that file would break if you ever assigned the remote directory to a different drive letter).

And when they finally got around to fixing it in the OS, it only fixed it for new programs that were written to some new API. Existing programs, even things like Visual C++ utilities, continued to go through the mapping tapdance, because apparently the existing OS file dialog routines weren't updated to do things the new way.

The assumption that files across the network are totally differents sorts of thing from local files appeared to be so ingrained in the Windows culture that Windows people don't even understand why it is a criticism of Windows to mention this. They think it has to be that way, because, well, they're across the network. As if there were some physical property of 100-base-T cables that made them intrinsically different from SATA cables.

Not really news (3, Informative)

Sentry21 (8183) | more than 6 years ago | (#21830780)

I've seen this before in AD groups. Windows will do a 'delayed write' of a file, then let you know later on if the write failed. Great if you're copying files up, terrible if you're saving a document while quitting the application and you get told 30 seconds later that your data was lost.

Example: http://cdslash.net/temp/images/datalost.png [cdslash.net]

Quite frustrating. I've yet to lose serious amounts of data so far, but I'm sure it'll happen.
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