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Fedora 8 A Serious Threat to Ubuntu

CmdrTaco posted more than 6 years ago | from the they-sure-couldn't-talk-more-about-themselves dept.

Red Hat Software 334

Tubs writes "According to MadPenguin.org's latest article, Fedora 8 from Red Hat is a serious threat to Ubuntu. The author writes, "I was never that swept up with past releases of Fedora. There was nothing compelling about it. But for the first time, I cannot help but feel that the Fedora team has been spoon fed an extra helping of Wheaties, which has put them into overdrive with their accessibility efforts."

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Linux Wars? (5, Insightful)

ThePromenader (878501) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856326)

I wouldn't consider one open-source project to be a danger to another...

Re:Linux Wars? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856382)

Different features for different users, I personally like Ubuntu for its easy use. Whilst Mandriva, and others I've not found so intuitive. I've written an article comparing some of my favorites. [contactlog.net]

Re:Linux Wars? (3, Informative)

biquet (932262) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856844)

Beware, parent is myminicity.

Re:Linux Wars? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856500)

What are you, a commie? EVERYTHING is a competition. You have to be number one. Coming in second is just not an option. It is your responsibility as a living being to completely win over every other living being at all costs. For example, I make sure I go outside and yell at my lawn at least twice a week and I kick the trees along my street every Tuesday just to show them who's the boss. If Fedora 8 can "win" over Ubuntu, that is a "win" for all of us and we will all laugh and be happy and dance around our living rooms with the now-famous "Unix Wins" dance that we've all seen on TV. If, however, Fedora 8 cannot WIN... then we must all immediately side with Canonical and weep with joy over how wonderful Ubuntu is and how it is the best. Give your head a shake, get a haircut, move out of your commune and join the real world... where there is only ONE WINNER and YOU must be that winner.

Thomas "the winner of Sarcasm" Dzubin

Re:Linux Wars? (2, Funny)

thomasdz (178114) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856516)

Damn, I meant to post that as "thomasdz", oh well... I guess I WIN at that also!

Re:Linux Wars? It's a matter of choice! (1)

miknix (1047580) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856532)

I agree. We should be all happy because we actually have freedom on what distro to choose.

I personally don't like this kind of news fomenting wars between opensource projects.

MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE!

Re:Linux Wars? (4, Interesting)

Albert Sandberg (315235) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856574)

Exactly. If anything. it's a threat to microsoft and apple, but maybe not so much the latter. Since microsoft has screwed up more and more stuff lately, if they don't come on track again, more and more users will start looking towards the alternatives. Since they have a PC computer already, installing linux could be a nice step to take before scrapping the compouter and go Apple and the more dists that looks good and shiney and do what they should, the better.

I was for instance surprised that there was no hassle AT ALL installing my Brother HL-1250 printer the other day while in windows I've always hassled with drivers and previously in linux I had to config some stuff manually, but this time it was just 100% plug in and pl^H^H print. Totally awesome, I had my tabs printed out in no-time.

I've gone the path from windows to linux by testing out a lot of distros (pretty much redhat->suse->debian->mepis->ubuntu) and most people don't have the patience enough to walk through a wall of configuration, so this is good news for everyone! Even the ubuntu crew should benefit from this in the long run.

Happy new year everybody.

Re:Linux Wars? (2, Insightful)

gollito (980620) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857238)

Isn't a Mac/Apple a P(ersonal)C(computer)?

Back in the day you could make the distinction between Mac's and IBM compatibles by their hardware platform but even then they were still Personal Computers.
There was of course the distinction between hardware (PPC vrs x86) but even that is gone now.

Re:Linux Wars? (5, Informative)

kripkenstein (913150) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856584)

I wouldn't consider one open-source project to be a danger to another...
That's a good point.

Also, TFA has absolutely no content on which to base its claims. It mentions 4 things, PulseAudio, CodecBuddy, Spins, and the Fedora theme. Ubuntu 8.04 will have PulseAudio; in fact, this is just another example of the usual relationship of Fedora and Ubuntu - Fedora is slightly more 'on the edge', Ubuntu is a little more stable - but still, at least in non-LTS versions, quite risk-taking. Regarding CodecBuddy, Ubuntu has this, and in fact had it before Fedora. Spins are fairly meaningless - a nice idea, but let's see some compelling implementation. And anyhow both Ubuntu and Fedora welcome 'spins' aka derivative versions; Ubuntu has its own Kubuntu/Edubuntu/etc. as well as the non-official Mint, etc.

Finally, the theme. Well, he's got me there, Fedora does win in that respect. I don't mind the Ubuntu brown, but they aren't doing something nice enough with it so far. However Ubuntu 8.04 will have a brand new theme with a lot of effort put into it, so here's hoping.

Returning to your point, in fact most of these examples prove it. Fedora led the way with PulseAudio; Ubuntu saw it was possible, and will now do it as well. They might even benefit from the code. Similarly, Ubuntu led the way with CodecBuddy-type things, which Fedora wisely adopted. Hopefully Fedora's nice theme will encourage Ubuntu to focus more on that. Thus, we have in effect excellent examples of how FOSS project spur each other to better and greater things.

Fedora, Ubuntu, all made possible by GNOME. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856784)

Seriously, anymore they're just GNOME distros; while one might get advantages that the other doesn't have currently, they all go to the common collective and soon enough both distros are using it. Codeina/Codec Buddy, Alacarte (the menu editor), PulseAudio for being desktop neutral and a compelling replacement to ESound, etc.

Reminds me a hell of a lot of the quote from Armageddon (the only memorable thing about that movie): American Components, Russian Components... All made in Taiwan.

Updated Summary (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856910)

Also, TFA has absolutely no content on which to base its claims.

Here's the updated summary soon to appear after Taco makes his edit:

Crock Itand Tubs writes

"According to hyperbolic sensationalist Matt Hartley's complete lack of objective journalism skills, MadPenguin.org was duped into running another misleading article full of innuendo about battles, fights, conflicts, wars, and skirmishes where none exist. The upshot of the piece essentially was that if you download the 6 extra CDs required to install Fedora then it may have one (or possibly two, depending on your accounting system) newish featurettes which you are unlikely to use and will be soon available in Ubuntu anyway. The flamebait ended with a plea to please click the ads; no really, please!"

Re:Linux Wars? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21857222)

I love how Ubuntu is given 'credit' for codec buddy. Who wrote codec buddy? Bastien Nocera who works for Red Hat and Thomas Vander Stichele who works for Fluendo (you know, the guys who want your soul so you can play mp3's)

Red Hat pays someone's salary to write codec buddy and yet 'ubuntu' comes out the better. Sounds like NetworkManager all over again. Red Hat pays to write the code the fanboys think ubuntu is the greatest thing ever....

Re:Linux Wars? (1)

cwt137 (861631) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856672)

So X.org wasn't a threat to XFree86?

Re:Linux Wars? (1)

siride (974284) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856772)

X.org IS XFree86. All the developers left the latter and became the former, along with the codebase. So, in a sense, you are right, but it was hardly normal competition.

Re:Linux Wars? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856806)

But they are.

Face it. There is a high percentage of windows users who are not gonna switch to linux, ever (well, at least not for a very, very long time...).

On the other hand there are users who:
a) use just linux
b) use both platforms
c) are looking for ways to migrate from win to linux

Any of users in the second group has to DECIDE on the distro. And decision on the consumer side equals competition on the producer side.

Of course, RH and Canonical compete in:
- getting the largest user base in the second group, by providing the most user friendly/faster/better/ueber coll distro
- sell their services to subset of enterprise users

The way I see it (I am a windows user, but I must say I am VERY dissapointed in their latest/greatest product) too much competition, forking etc. hurts linux adoption and only helps MS: "Devide an conquer".

Here's why:
- there are only so many developers (who are willing to give there IP away for free).
- there are many issues that needs to be solved / projects to complete
- if two teams decide to provide two solutions, the end users will have to wait for a feature complete product almost twice as long

Do we need KDE and Gnome? Koffice and open office? Etc etc.

Why not, for example, finish mono and attract more developers (developers, developers, developers) and end users to make transition from windows?

Re:Linux Wars? (5, Insightful)

nine-times (778537) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856926)

That's pretty much what I came in here to say.

Why does the most recent Fedora seem so competitive to Ubuntu? Well probably because they're pulling their updates from a lot of the same places.

But if you want to imagine the two groups fighting it out, go right ahead. Insofar as they are competing, there's only one possible winner: us. Each group is trying to improve Linux more, each will feed off of the other's improvements, and the end result will be a better FOSS operating system that will be accessible to all of us.

Good luck to both of them.

Re:Linux Wars? (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857088)

Red Hat and Canonical are competing corporations. They have very similar business models and they are targeting the same markets (Canonical recently announced a push to enter the enterprise market, Red Hat's stronghold).

Ubuntu's main selling point was that it was easy to set up and use, that it "just worked," and that it had some fun media programs. Fedora 8 has all those strong points, and a few features that are of interest to people who know about computing (the way daemons and applets interact, for example).

Re:Linux Wars? (3, Insightful)

JavaBear (9872) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857282)

I agree, though the added competition can only be of the good.

Wake me up.... (1, Insightful)

nighty5 (615965) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856340)

when they gain back some serious users - specifically the ones they decided weren't important enough to continue to support.

Re:Wake me up.... (4, Informative)

rasjani (97395) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856804)

And things have changed how exactly from days of when redhat was redhat and there was no fedora? Gone worse ?

Seriously. How many redhat releases there where ? 9 majors if i remember right and few .1 and .2 releases + the ee versions. So, how much time have gone into 8 fedora releases ? How and how much progress has happened in them ? Does redhat still back up fedora development, do they provide services like bugzilla/mailinglists, mirrors, what ever to fedora project ? And what about the community ? There more more 3rd party wiki pages, news sites, *RPM REPOSITORIES*, support forums and what not than there was ever provided by Redhat alone..

And you say that support has gone worse because "they dont want to support the serious users"..

So, honest question, could you actually give some real facts how things are worse now than they where ?

Please be serious (4, Insightful)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856360)

How can Fedora be a "serious threat" to Ubuntu when according to well known facts, the Fedora platform is a testing ground for RedHat and will always be?

The Ubuntu zealots are also very vocal and defend the Debian apt system from which Ubuntu gets its package manager. Has yum improved that much to match apt? I doubt.

Re:Please be serious (1)

Junta (36770) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856496)

Your first point is quite valid, they've left legacy in a quagmire, and generally aim to be bleeding edge cannon fodder for the sake of the RHEL releases. If you want a stable long term free distribution in that family, you must go with CentOS. Meanwhile, Ubuntu releases are mostly short term (similar to Fedora), but don't aim to be testing ground for anyone else, and continually makes decisions toward stability forgoing not-yet tested features (i.e. KDE 4, which Ubuntu 8.4 decided to skip, and Fedora 9 will be embracing, a perfect example). They release LTS every so often for CentOS like cycles.

I prefer apt, but yum isn't so bad. It features the same basic functionality, and if you are pedantic, can even maintain the distinction between updating metadata and leaving metadata alone (in apt world, the difference between update and upgrade). I haven't found yum lacking features lately, but was perplexed why it evolved when apt-rpm existed. I was annoyed by the frequent unsolicited metadata updates when I just wanted to install packages and I knew the metadata was fine, but I've learned how to deal with that and the default behavior seems to have gotten more sane.

Re:Please be serious (4, Interesting)

that this is not und (1026860) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856694)

I prefer apt, but yum isn't so bad.

Some of us prefer make.

Re:Please be serious (2, Informative)

dwater (72834) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856864)

I prefer apt, but yum isn't so bad.
...and the smart package manager works on both, iinm. I prefer using it, but that's probably because I don't have to switch when I'm using one or the other.

Re:Please be serious (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856586)

Fedora is a second class distribution from Redhat. Is a testing distribution for RHEL. RHEL has features Fedora doesn't.

Re:Please be serious (3, Interesting)

rasjani (97395) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856854)

Define improvement?

First off, i've been using apt for Redhat since redhat 6 release .. Few package repositories provided only apt interface but since then apt and yum repo's have same backend so any apt rpm repo works now with yum too

Since version 7 fedora, i've been starting to use yum irregullary and after upgrading to fc8 and the latest yum, i've been a really happy camper with it.

- Latest yum works much faster than previous versions.
- Configurability is much better with yum than with apt. 3rd party plugins can do really wonders.

Re:Please be serious (1)

ImTheDarkcyde (759406) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857008)

nah, yum is still kinda cranky and frankly so is apt. Both of them have some serious work to do on their program descriptions, as right now they are really both only useful if you know what you are looking for to begin with. Even browsing 'games' for a random time waster is sometimes difficult because "open source shooting game" isn't a terribly descriptive .. description

yum Is Solid (4, Insightful)

EXTomar (78739) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857092)

How can Fedora be a "serious threat" to Ubuntu when according to well known facts, the Fedora platform is a testing ground for RedHat and will always be?


The Ubuntu zealots are also very vocal and defend the Debian apt system from which Ubuntu gets its package manager. Has yum improved that much to match apt? I doubt.

Why is it bad that Fedora is backed by Red Hat? Why do you even ask "Has yum improved?" when you admit you don't know (or care) about the answer. Asking "How can Fedora be good if it is backed by Red Hat?" and "Has yum improved?" are both empty questions meant to cast both into a bad light instead of offering some insight instead of investigating the issue. I honestly never understood why people don't like "yum" but like "apt" when they seem to match each other feature for feature. There maybe something deep down that one does that the other doesn't but at a high level: "# yum install firefox" and "# apt-get install firefox" are equivalent.

Beyond this, I really don't see why Ubuntu or Fedora need to "beat" each other. We should be celebrating the difference in strengths and the choice. I'm never convinced by fanboys on any side who think everyone needs to their favorite distro.

its not yum, its rpm (-1, Troll)

g4b (956118) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857294)

yum can be solid as it wants to be, as long as its using rpm, i dont see the advantage

for my tastes, .deb is the superior format, not apt. i dont want to go in detail here.

it is the combination of apt and .deb which rocks.

apt is also used by rpm based distros sometimes as add-on, but still, it is the "rpm-hell", not the "yum-hell" which we always talked about.

Re:Please be serious (4, Informative)

MSG (12810) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857148)

How can Fedora be a "serious threat" to Ubuntu when according to well known facts, the Fedora platform is a testing ground for RedHat and will always be?

That's not a fact, it's a characterization. It's not a particularly good one, either. Stability is, in fact, important to the Fedora developers, because they're users too. Slashdot did an interview [slashdot.org] with Max Spevack, the Fedora Project leader a while back. His answers, particularly to question #8, are relevant to your assertion.

Quoted: Fedora is the best of what works today. RHEL is the best of what will work for the next seven years.

Fedora isn't going to be the latest beta of stuff that doesn't work. The people who tell you that are advancing a political agenda.

Has yum improved that much to match apt?

It's likely that you know a great deal more than I do about apt, so you should correct me if I'm wrong about this:

While yum is slower than apt to resolve dependencies, I think it's a much more useful tool. apt can install a package if you know its name. Yum can install a local package, and get its dependencies. It can also install a package based on its name, a virtual capability, an actual capability (library name or executable), or a file provided by the package (by path).

Yes, yum is a little slow, but in exchange it is capable of better doing what I want it to, as a user. I think it's better than apt. As a Fedora user, I have the option to use either one, and I stick with yum.

Re:Please be serious (1)

SoapDish (971052) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857276)

It's that kind of FUD that makes this article wrong. We're always going to have people that believe that crap, and get modded insightful when they're really just a troll.

The real reason Fedora 8 won't gain significant ground is that everyone's going to remember when they tried FC3 for a few days, and assume nothing's changed in 2.5 years.

It's the same kind of thing with choices of desktop. In the past couple months I've heard someone complain about QT not being "free" as in GPL, which it has been for a while. Then there's people talking about how XFCE is stripped down and uses less memory, but once you start running gnome or kde apps, that difference is insignificant due to shared libraries.

Really, there's so much choice that you should just pick the distribution, desktop, and apps that fit your needs. There's no need to come up with FUD and outdated information to justify your choice, or to tell people that what they prefer is worse.

Issues with the article already. (4, Insightful)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856370)

Lately, I have been looking into other distributions that, like Ubuntu, are working to make strides to attract new users. I still have Debian Etch burned to a CD, waiting for a test in our lab. Next up is going to be Fedora.
(emphasis mine) I'm supposed to take this reviewer seriously, when he hasn't got around to testing Debian Etch but wants me to trust his knowledge of Linux systems, including Ubuntu? Right.

Posting from an Ubuntu 64 workstation, running several Debian Etch VPS containers in VMWare Server, and a couple of dedicated Debian and FreeBSD boxes on this LAN.

Re:Issues with the article already. (-1, Flamebait)

swb (14022) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856690)

So when you say your cock is bigger than his, does that mean longer, thicker, perhaps a more pronounced head, or just kind of meatier?

Mr. Sulu (1)

imtheguru (625011) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856758)

Mr. Sulu, set maximum magnification on the viewer.

Re:Issues with the article already. (1)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857228)

I prefer the term, "beefier." Sounds more manly. It doesn't help that the author of the article's cause that he comes across sounding like a 15 year old kid who just discovered the wide world of Linux last week.

Re:Issues with the article already. (5, Funny)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857176)

I'm supposed to take this reviewer seriously, when he hasn't got around to testing Debian Etch but wants me to trust his knowledge of Linux systems, including Ubuntu? Right.

Posting from an Ubuntu 64 workstation, running several Debian Etch VPS containers in VMWare Server, and a couple of dedicated Debian and FreeBSD boxes on this LAN.

Are you like, totally serious? You've set that all up by yourself. OMG OMG OMG!!! Please, like, tell us your opinion on FC8 vs. Ubuntu. Pleeeeeasssseeee ;)

(I so can't wait to tell my friends that I actually talked to you! OMG OMG OMG... )

Re:Issues with the article already. (1)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857310)

Dude, calm down. My point was that this stuff is incredibly easy to install and test, and I can't believe the linked article actually made it to the front page. Have a beer and relax.

your kidding i hope (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856372)

"having better control over your sound device is just what popular Linux distros need right now."

I think theres probably A THOUSAND THINGS you could say linux distros need right now. So what.
When fedora gets anywhere near usable on the desktop let me know.

Re:your kidding i hope (1)

neomunk (913773) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857136)

What? I sent you that memo 6 years ago....

Oh, well, better late than never. Fedora is (at least) somewhere near ready for the desktop.

If you don't think so, let us know why. If you just want to sound like troll, pull out another overused cliché, and swing that one around too, but be sure not to say anything worthwhile.

Another quick look at your post shows you're in no danger of making THAT mistake though... Carry on.

This article is misleading (2, Insightful)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856374)

...Misleading. Why?

Because it assumes the Ubuntu folks are seated idle and doing absolutely nothing.

fedora is an upgrade treadmill (4, Funny)

Jepler (6801) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856376)

Fedora is an upgrade treadmill. With Fedora, you're stuck upgrading every 12 months or so, or you can't get security updates anymore. With Fedora, install an LTS version and you're covered for 5 years on the server. That's why I switched.

Re:fedora is an upgrade treadmill (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856406)

So you switched from Fedora to Fedora and found that it improved...interesting.

Proofreading, anyone?

Minor correction. (3, Informative)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856440)

Fedora is an upgrade treadmill. With Fedora, you're stuck upgrading every 12 months or so, or you can't get security updates anymore. With Fedora, install an LTS version and you're covered for 5 years on the server. That's why I switched.
I think you wanted the bolded text to read "Ubuntu".

Re:fedora is an upgrade treadmill (1, Flamebait)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856462)

Agreed; Fedora is a waste of time because of the upgrade cycle and lack of stability. Not even close to being a challenge to Ubuntu.

Re:fedora is an upgrade treadmill (3, Interesting)

modernbob (558981) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856588)

New releases come out every 6 months. Basically as soon as a new release comes out fedora is through with the old one. This IMHO makes fedora totally worthless for so many reasons. I have used Fedora from core 2 to Fedora 8 and it's a good distro but this upgrade cycle is what has made me leave Fedora.

Re:fedora is an upgrade treadmill (1)

siride (974284) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856680)

How is this ANY different from your standard Ubuntu fare? Yes, Ubuntu has the LTS releases, but honestly, who doesn't upgrade when the next Ubuntu comes out, especially since they refuse to backport newer versions of software to older versions of Ubuntu.

Re:fedora is an upgrade treadmill (2, Insightful)

Wdomburg (141264) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856688)

Install Red Hat Enterprise or CentOS and you're covered 7 years for both desktop and server. Fedora, like regular Ubuntu releases, are focused on features rather than longevity. The releases are just branched and branded differently rather than being done inline like Ubuntu. I prefer the Red Hat model, since they start with a feature set frozen from an established release rather than doing a new release with new features. I trust a "dot zero" release of RHEL/CentOS far more than I trust a "dot zero" version of Ubuntu LTS.

Re:fedora is an upgrade treadmill (1)

Peter H.S. (38077) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856802)

Fedora is an upgrade treadmill. With Fedora, you're stuck upgrading every 12 months or so, or you can't get security updates anymore. With Fedora, install an LTS version and you're covered for 5 years on the server. That's why I switched.

Who wants to run a 5 year old Linux desktop system? Gnome 1.4, KDE 2.2 no CUPS. Red Hat 7.2 was a decent release, but people expect more nowadays. Unlike Red Hat, Ubuntu didn't even exist 5 years ago so who knows how committed Ubuntu really is in the future regarding 5 years of support if hardly anybody runs the legacy distros anymore.

--
Regards

Re:fedora is an upgrade treadmill (1)

friskyfeline (1053432) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856824)

I like the fact that Fedora is an upgrade treadmill. If you want new applications like pulseaudio and the latest Gnome then you know you will get this with Fedora. You can't have both time tested stability plus the latest and greatest since stability takes time. But, Fedora with version 8 did a lot of good testing and fixed major bugs users reported before releasing it. Version 8 works great for me. The sound server is excellent and yum is fast and easy to use now. The GUI work they did with themes makes Fedora 8 look better than Ubuntu. There is a reason Fedora 8 is getting a lot of press: it is an excellent release.

Re:fedora is an upgrade treadmill (1)

visualight (468005) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856898)

Just to be clear, we're talking about desktops, not servers.

I think every desktop distribution is an upgrade treadmill. The "5 years of support" thing might true technically but after 12 to 18 months you find packages they didn't produce for your version, or there's some new flashy thing that you want that really works better when built with a tool chain that doesn't match yours. You look for your own solutions for a few weeks/months, but then you say "screw it" and go for the upgrade.
The upgrade scripts are certainly better these days, I haven't heard any horror stories for a long time, but I still don't like them.

5 years of stagnation is okay for server, but if it's in front of my face all day every day I want constant, painless, steady improvements and a promise that there will *never* be a package available for version 7 that's not in the 5 list of packages. So that at the end of "5 years" I still have a current, pleasing to use desktop, and not 5 year old crap+security patches.

Re:fedora is an upgrade treadmill (1)

MSG (12810) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857212)

Yes, support lifetime on Fedora is short, but I think most users see Fedora, RHEL, and CentOS as a family of distributions in much the same way that Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu are the same family. If long term support is a requirement, RHEL and CentOS have a seven-year support cycle.

I stick with Fedora for some reasons that are pragmatic: I think its tools are great. There are political reasons, too. I like that Fedora is purely Free Software. Not just the software in the distribution, but the software used to build and release the distribution, too. Those are the Fedora Project's priorities, and they're mine too.

Apt description (1)

ThePromenader (878501) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856378)

"I see solid indications that Fedora could dethrown Ubuntu with its latest release."

Well, that choice of *cough* vocabulary does describe a rather enthusiastic dethroning...

Re:Apt description (1)

LiquidCoooled (634315) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856448)

Step back people, these dethronings are always messy.
You might want to shield the eyes of the younger ones.

Re:Apt description (1)

haakondahl (893488) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856742)

Hmm. If you are dethroned and thrown out of a window, you have been *defenestrated*. If you instead dethrone and throw out Windows, what is that called?

I don't know, but it sounds like this:

Dook-Dookoo-Deek-Deek, Dook-Dook-Deek-Deek, Dook-Dook-Dook-TSShhh!

fedora is nice (1)

vajaradakini (1209944) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856386)

I've got Fedora 8 on my computer in my office. It's pretty sweet. I've never use ubuntu so I don't really have any basis of comparison.
I wasn't aware that the different distros were in competition though.

Re:fedora is nice (1)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856544)

They're definitely in competition, given the fact that most distros have a commercial arm supporting a large portion of their development.

Re:fedora is nice (1)

vajaradakini (1209944) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856566)

Oh. I'm clearly awesome at noticing things like this.

Re:fedora is nice (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856980)

No, he's full of crap.

The BIG ones (excepting debian) have company help, but that is more of an exception than the rule when you look at all the distros as a whole.

Re:fedora is nice (1)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857208)

No. You, sir, are full of crap. When you look at what's actually used and widely recognized in the world of Linux (especially for desktops), you'll plainly see that there are several "mainstream" distros that garner the lion's share of attention and represent the vast majority of the installed base:

In no particular order:

(1) Red Hat Linux [redhat.com]

(2) Fedora Linux [fedoraproject.org] (community bleeding-edge source for Red Hat)

(2) Mandriva Linux [mandriva.com] (used to be Mandrake)

(3) Ubuntu Linux [ubuntu.com] (plus variants, Edubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu, etc)

(4) SUSE Linux [novell.com] (owned by Novell these days)

(5) Gentoo Linux [gentoo.org]

Yes, we also have Debian [debian.org] , Slackware [slackware.com] and many others that don't necessarily have huge commercial ties, but they're also the base for many commercial distros. You might be using Linux From Scratch, or one of several dozen other random distros with has an installed base of 100 users, but if that's the case you're pretty far from the average desktop or server Linux user.

My Apache logs tell the story pretty well. As Captial One might say, what's in your logfiles?

Serious Threat? (1)

bondsbw (888959) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856402)

Who cares unless it is a serious threat to WINDOWS.

I'm getting tired of the Linux wars... the fight to be the best distro... and still very few people you run into every day have even heard of Linux and want you to figure out why the wireless doesn't work on Vista. Until Microsoft gets some REAL competition, it will be this way, and they won't get real competition if the distros feel it best to fight one another.

The Apple commercial has Mac vs. PC... not Mac vs. Penguin or Mac vs. Solaris, because nobody would care.

Re:Serious Threat? (1)

Alioth (221270) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856540)

The distros _aren't_ fighting each other; this is some boneheaded reviewer inventing a fight where none exists.

Re:Serious Threat? (1)

canuck57 (662392) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857322)

The Apple commercial has Mac vs. PC... not Mac vs. Penguin or Mac vs. Solaris, because nobody would care.

Then you will like this commercial below. I thought this was well done. Made me like Linux even more. BTW, I run both FC8 and Ubuntu, like them both and they work together.

Linux [youtube.com] Windows and Mac.

Threat?... (4, Interesting)

sykopomp (1133507) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856408)

...When are we going to stop seeing distros as opposing forces and stop accepting that it might be nice to have more than one popular distro? SPOILERS: Your favorite distro isn't the best.

Re:Threat?... (1)

satoshi1 (794000) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857324)

I don't recall ever seeing them as opposing forces...

Umm, no. (1, Insightful)

B5_geek (638928) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856446)

As long as it uses RPM, it will never be a threat.

Re:Umm, no. (2, Informative)

siride (974284) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856696)

Quite true, since so many people falsely believe RPM is inferior, when it is, in fact, superior to deb in almost every way. Having worked with both, including making my own RPMs and specfiles, I can safely say, that using RPM is a dream compared to trying to do anything interesting with apt.

Who cares? (4, Insightful)

diegocgteleline.es (653730) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856900)

Having worked with both, including making my own RPMs and specfiles, I can safely say, that using RPM is a dream compared to trying to do anything interesting with apt.

It's weird that having worked with packages, you confuse the package format (RPM/DEB) with the package manager (APT/YUM). The main reason why ubuntu rocks is APT, not the .deb format. I still have to see a package manager that beats APT in practice (and that includes commercial systems - and it's not that APT cannot improved...). Why the RPM people went with yum instead of using (or modifying) a proved solution is beyond me.

Re:Umm, no. (1)

rasjani (97395) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856908)

Agreed.

Only thing that was done better from the start with deps was the hook with apt repositories. FC/Redhat that has already covered but people are still stuck with old mental images of "inferior rpm".

Re:Umm, no. (1)

spottedkangaroo (451692) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856964)

Dunno, it's been a while since I've used any rpms (I never really got over it when redhat abandoned everyone); but I find the debian repos have an awful lot of awesome in them. They have crypto sigs that cover md5/sha1 and sha256 hashes and the sigs describe the whole dang repository efficiently. Does yum have that? I literally don't know, but I doubt it. Why? Probably because they abandoned me and I just don't expect much. Also *BEEP* redhat. I mean that very sincerely.

Re:Umm, no. (1)

Ash-Fox (726320) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857120)

Quite true, since so many people falsely believe RPM is inferior, when it is, in fact, superior to deb in almost every way.
I have used both over the years and what I dislike about RPMs is how every distribution... Redhat, Mandriva, SuSE have to have their own unique way of handling things like signing of files.

Having worked with both, including making my own RPMs and specfiles, I can safely say, that using RPM is a dream compared to trying to do anything interesting with apt.
What does RPM and APT have to do with making the package? I personally prefer .deb packaging because of how easy it is to just build everything under a fakeroot 'clean system' using tools like pbuilder for any distribution. So far I haven't encountered RPM tools that let me do that under the same ease (though if you do know of any, please let me know - I would really appreciate it).

Since you did mention the tools. I have noticed that RPM package managers are a slower than the deb equivalents, just take a look at yast, urpmi, yum, rpmdrake and compare to apt-get, adept, aptitude etc.

Re:Umm, no. (1)

Peter H.S. (38077) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856996)

As long as it uses RPM, it will never be a threat.

So what is wrong with RPM? I have always found it to be a rather wonderfull program and package standard.
Personally I find rpm vastly superior to any any MS Windows program installation procedure.

--
Regards

Re:Umm, no. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21857240)

Amen,

My experience with RPM and their package managers has been less pleasant than anything windows has ever offered.

where is the article? (1)

quitte (1098453) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856470)

This is just an announcement for a series of articles. or did I miss something?

Better than Vista? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856508)

Wake me up when Fedora is a better desktop client than Vista on modern HW!

The online desktop ? (1)

wilted_buttercup (1164545) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856512)

I run fedora 8 on my desktops at home and at work, mainly due to installation ease, and also due to the fact that all of our servers run RHES - consistency being the key. In brief, yum has improved vastly since earlier fedora core releases, the addition of packages yum-fastestmirror and yumex (Yum Extender), allow for a better yuming experience.

The Gnome-online desktop is something else worth mentioning, the incorporation of your various social networks into your desktop is more exciting than anything else reported in the desktop OS world, and the fedora team seem to be on the right track with this one. Dont get me wrong, the infrastructure is in its infancy, but could this be the future Windows killer?

Re:The online desktop ? (0, Troll)

cHiphead (17854) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856718)

I love how yum is still struggling to improve its image vs. apt. Thats what they get for reinventing the wheel. Why was yum needed instead of really moving to apt? What capability couldnt possibly be added to apt? Is is just Redhat arrogance determined to use their rpm format (which never worked right in the early days, while .deb and apt worked fairly reliably).

Cheers.

I object to the word "threat". (5, Insightful)

A beautiful mind (821714) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856528)

In F/OSS environments we welcome alternatives and diversity.

Follow Fedora (1)

Ash-Fox (726320) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856600)

So a sound server, yet another proprietary codec installer (which Ubuntu already has), a application that lets you make custom install CDs (I'll note that Ubuntu already has such a project in the works) and a new theme is a threat to Ubuntu's usage?

These aren't even reasons why I use Ubuntu or Kubuntu. Nor would they be reasons for most other people I know who use the *buntu systems on their desktops. I don't even see these as killer features that Ubuntu lacks.

I don't agree with this reviewer.

lern2spel (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856614)

What the hell is dethrown, does this person possibly mean dethrone ? The author could at least try some basic spell checking before posting.

Re:lern2spel (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856930)

It's the past participle of dethrow, of course.

They are the Same (5, Insightful)

ArkiMage (578981) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856632)

I've installed both on the same machine within the past 2 weeks. Once the desktop is up and I'm clicking around it would be very difficult to tell which OS is running on the box except for the backdrop and default color scheme. Gnome 2.20 is pretty much Gnome 2.20 no matter which distro it sits on top of. Icon placement, desktop panels, menu arrangement, they were pretty much identical. Who cares about apt vs yum either, click Applications->Add/Remove Software and point'n'click your way through installing whatever you need installed.

There is no "war" between distros. I can run Firefox on any Linux distro. Same goes for Amarok, K3B, OpenOffice, Thunderbird, etc...

Get over it.

Ubuntu is more than just what's on the disc (4, Interesting)

IGnatius T Foobar (4328) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856670)

It's going to take more to "beat" Ubuntu than just having someone say "this is going to beat Ubuntu." There's more to Ubuntu than just what's on the disc. Since Fedora 8 is really just the beta version of Red Hat "Global" Desktop, all I'm really hearing here is "me too." Ok, so they prettied up the screens and added some more configuration options? Great. What happens when Fedora 9 comes out? Will I just be able to push a button and seamlessly upgrade the whole thing in place? I doubt it. And what happens if I decide I want paid support? Will Red Hat support my free Fedora download the way Canonical will support Ubuntu? No, they'll insist that I run "Red Hat Enterprise" for that. And where are the free Fedora discs being mailed to anyone who wants, just for the asking?

Ubuntu nailed the winning formula for desktop Linux, just like Red Hat seems to have nailed the winning formula for enterprise Linux. I wouldn't use either one in the other's place.

Yea Sure (1)

codepunk (167897) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856704)

Used to be a Die Hard Red Hat Fan, switched to Ubuntu a few years ago when RH quit
the desktop biz. I could not be happier with Ubuntu, always stable for me and there
is no way I am going back to rpm based package managers. Apt increased my productivity
by a large magnitude, something I will just not give up.

Re:Yea Sure (1)

Peter H.S. (38077) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856880)

Apt increased my productivity by a large magnitude, something I will just not give up.

How on earth does a front end to a package management system increase your productivity? What does apt-deb do that yum-rpm doesn't?

--
Regards

Re:Yea Sure (1)

ErikZ (55491) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856960)

That's an excellent point. Why should Red Hat care about being on the desktop when they're aimed at servers and other business needs? They did abandon the desktop and Fedora has always been more experimental than usable to my experience.

I'm no longer the guy who likes tossing on various flavors of Linux to see how they work.

And we all know what too much fiber causes... (-1, Flamebait)

pla (258480) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856744)

which has put them into overdrive with their accessibility efforts.

No offense to those who need "accessibility" features, but for the rest of us, that phrase translates to "we spent far too much effort putting in crap that 99.9% of our users have no use for, often sacrificing real functionality because it wouldn't play well with screenreaders or braille TTYs".

Thanks, but no thanks - Call me callous, but I simply don't care about "accessibility". Call me sociocentric, but I don't care about i18n. Call me an FSF heathen, but I don't care about binary modules (as long as they work) or the legality of using Windows codecs. Call me Ishmael, but just get me that goddamned whale!

I just want what most of us want - Results; An OS that works for me, a speaker of English with a fully-working set of human senses and a collection of media files that includes QT, RM, and yes, even a bit of WM.

Re:And we all know what too much fiber causes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21857336)

Hear Hear!

when trying to enable compiz (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856790)

... you will see the difference ... In Ubuntu i get right away the message that there is a "restricted driver" available. I can enable this and after a reboot i can enable compiz through special desktop effect. Enabling nvidiain Fedora is already a task on itself. have to search through 20 - 30 packages with names like kmod-nvidia bla bla .. several versions ...rpm .. legacy drivers ... 1094 .. wtf.

 

fedora should be scrapped (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21856794)

...I stopped using Fedora when its librarians couldn't even manage to avoid yum update conflicts. The infamous "ekiga" incident cost Fedora users when even ESR bailed on them.

I use Centos 5.1 on my personal server, and Ubuntu 7.10 on one of my laptops.

One thing I noticed recently, Fedora no longer supports many common Ethernet cards out of the box. This is very discouraging -- it's one thing if you have to look for drivers and download. But to not be able to access an old ethernet card is terrible -- it makes the installation disc a frustrating experience.

The interesting thing about this is that RH doesn't even want desktop users -- there just aren't that many profitable desktop market segments. The only reason they even pay lip service to the desktop is to keep Ubuntu at bay.

The Ubuntu people have a serious problem -- they've got the desktop market for linux sewn up, but it's not worth anything. So they have to leverage their desktop market share to try and get web server business.

As someone who has run a hosting ISP for 10 years, I can tell you that hosting is like 80% Red Hat and its variants ie Centos -- just do a search for "linux dedicated server"

Sadly, the only market left for Fedora is RH server administrators who want to run a similar environment on their desktops. And those people are more likely to run Centos as their desktop anyway.

I knew Fedora was dying when I saw the RH5 beta program. I mean, what's the point of Fedora at all at that point?

Re:fedora should be scrapped (1)

someone1234 (830754) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857260)

Well, none of the linuxes are perfect.
I tried Ubuntu 7.10, but it didn't even tell me the root password :) Of course it didn't notice the network hardware (even though there is gpl sourcecode for it back from 2005 - attansic network card)
Funny how people say it is easy to install, i used slackware, redhat, suse before, and i didn't have this kind of problem before.

Now i use OpenSuse 10.3, but it didn't want to install on an older machine of mine, so this was kind of luck :)
It is lucky there are so many linux distros, one should happen to work for you.

Some tactics just don't apply to... (2, Interesting)

3seas (184403) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856814)

..open source.

Media tactic, competitive tactics, licensing manipulation tactics, etc..

As both projects are open source, as are many others, they all can use the best of any of these.
But in open source it all really comes down to a sum of humanities produced value.
Selecting "ubuntu" as a lable for a linux distribution is in recognition of this.
And of course it doesn't make Ubuntu the best by just naming it this way, but it does point out a recognition of what makes things "best".

There are so many tactic that work outside of open source, but open source is doesn't fix in supporting those tactics.
However, because of this non-fit, you can always identify an outsiders attempt to apply such tactics.

The different distributions of linux, the value is no so much in competition of the same general user system but in specialization.
Its good we have an overall target of improving desktop and server systems, but the time has come when this flushes out that such system are similiar enough that there is little difference if any thing more than a distro name.

When the magazine industry first started there was a target of general interest publication and at some point when this was filled competition lead to the beginnings of specialization. Today we have magazines that specialize in more things that only a few are aware of them all. The same is beginning to happen with open source OS packages. Multimedia distros like dynebolic, artistx, studio64 etc.. and there are others. What the specialization provides is better integration of specialized packages, kernel tuning, etc...

Specialization is where open source competition is and also where there are fewer competing, if more than one.

Where is the difference between Ubuntu and Fedora? (3, Interesting)

thaig (415462) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856818)

They can both package up the latest software, Yum is nearly as good as apt as far as I can tell. They both offer GNOME and . . Firefox.

I mean what noticeable difference is there?

In the end, what lasting advantage can one have over the other if they both have access to the same range of open source components?

I have used the latest Fedora 8 and Ubuntu and I can't get excited about either of them. Pulseaudio was and is an utter pain in the neck to get working with Enemy Territory, Skype and Firefox all needing different workarounds and what is so astounding about it from a user's point of view? After the effort, stuff works like it did except that Youtube videos now randomly cause Firefox to crash.

There's nothing happening in user interfaces - they are stagnating and Fedora 6,7,8 and Gutsy Gibbon all seem the same to me from that point of view. The new 3D effects cause reliability problems and do only a little bit more than nothing for usability.

There's a lot of "lets-learn-programming-by-implementing-what-others-have-done-before" going on but not a lot of innovation.

Re:Where is the difference between Ubuntu and Fedo (1)

friskyfeline (1053432) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856878)

The new 3D effects cause reliability problems and do only a little bit more than nothing for usability. Damn, having a bad hair day today? ;-)

Support (1, Troll)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856842)

Does RH officially support Fedora now? Or is it still their 'sandbox'?

If that is the case, then there is still no 'threat'.

Ubuntu Vs Fedora (2, Interesting)

cyberkahn (398201) | more than 6 years ago | (#21856872)

I don't know. Personally I think they both have their strengths and weaknesses. I have switched to Ubuntu (not LTS) and have had only one technical problem with the distribution, which was fixed with the next apt-get upgrade. With Fedora I always had the impression I was working with something broken. The other thing I like about Ubuntu is it's lite install especially with server. Fedora is just too bloated even on a minimal install. Fedora does give someone a cheap way of learning Red Hat's distribution even though certain features are not in RHEL yet. It has been a few releases, since I have used Fedora, so objectively I need to try it out again. The one think I do like about Fedora is their documentation organization. In contrast, I find Ubuntu's documentation to be here there and everywhere.

Divide and Conquer. (4, Insightful)

Fantastic Lad (198284) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857018)

The attitude of Coke vs Pepsi and Democrat vs Republican doesn't sit well with Open Source.

Not every darned scenario in the world must resolve to some sort of Darwinian competition. Sometimes people just like to create at the peek of their powers for the sheer joy of creating something amazing, and not because they feel the need to destroy the competition. Ask the best painters, musicians and writers if their best work came about because they felt threatened --or if they felt in love with their medium and with the world in general. --Or rather, if you are a coder, how was the best code you ever wrote generated? Were you wearing your Nikes or were you just obsessively having fun trying to solve a problem?

The ideas of Darwinism and Competition certainly hold validity, but they are also two of the most highly abused concepts ever invented. Sheesh, the whole 'final solution' thing was based on Darwin. Talk about an abuse of concept!


-FL

2 why I stopped using I stopped using Fedora (1)

deadmongrel (621467) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857052)

1. Bloated System
2. Apt beats yum hands down

My Linux experience started with Fedora Core 1 but after couple of releases I had switched to debian.

Truly awful article - reviewed before installation (4, Insightful)

Animats (122034) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857112)

Now this is a truly awful article. The article isn't a review of Fedora 8. It's someone blithering that they're going to do a review of Fedora 8. This is a review of the press release.

The author has trouble with English, HTML, and the concept of free software. If you think the text is painful, try "view source". The page was apparently generated with Microsoft FrontPage, then hacked by hand. Badly. There's code from at least five sources, some of it in Visual Basic.

Notice the link right after the article: "Click here for prices on Linux distributions".

Re:Truly awful article - reviewed before installat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21857250)

Madpenguin.org isn't exactly known for their editorial prowess (neither is Slashdot, but that's well established). Think of it as an opinionated guy who thinks that he's actually being taken seriously, without realizing the fact that he has no actual talent at what he does.

Upgrades are the real difference, Ubuntu wins... (1)

BrianCarlstrom (717058) | more than 6 years ago | (#21857254)

I had used Fedora for years, primarily because it was the only distro I could get to work on our bleeding edge PowerMacs in our lab. However, as we acquired more machines the need to reinstall machines to get new versions became tedious. Yes, occasionally an upgrade could be forced, but often it just did not work. I first tried Ubuntu via the VMWare Browser Appliance, using it for some development on a Windows laptop. The biggest change was converting certain idioms from yum to apt, but that was relatively minor in the long run. The next time one of my desktops reached Fedora end-of-live, I figured I might as well try Ubuntu since I have to reinstall anyways and haven't looked back... So long Fedora, it was nice knowing you.
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