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Wonder Woman Gets a Woman's Point-of-View

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the just-a-bit-overdue dept.

Media 210

theodp writes "Traditionally, comics have been by, for and about men. But more and more women are breaking into the traditional boys' club. Beginning with Wonder Woman #14, the superhero's tale is being told by Gail Simone. It's a break from nearly 66 years of being written for the most part by men. '[Her work as a blogger] led to a writing job for the all-female comic 'Birds of Prey' for DC--which became a short-lived, live-action TV series--and in turn won her the "Wonder Woman" job. Simone says she sees a change since she wrote her refrigerator rant 10 years ago. 'At that time, the trend was towards grim stories where female characters were killed,' she says. 'We only had a handful of female characters to look up to. Today we're not seeing those stories so much.'"

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210 comments

the Story (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929708)

Linux! *Thought I'd make an apropos-of-nothing Linux reference before someone else finds a way to*

Re:the Story (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929742)

This article proves that Vista is the worst operating system, because men developed it.

On the rag makes it to the cartoon books (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929978)

'bout time we get to see the REAL wonder woman, one who half the month is bitchin' about nothin' and the other half is out screwing every pecker she can

ugogrrl

Wonder Dyke? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930238)

So does this mean that Wonder Woman is now going to become a man-hating dyke that blames men for all of her problems?

uh oh (-1, Troll)

deftones_325 (1159693) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929722)

From now on, WonderWoman will only wear approriate non-demeaning attire. No more tight pants. Trade them in for a pant-suit or business dress and a PDA. And please refer to her as WonderPerson, its less shovanistic.

Re:uh oh (2, Insightful)

rednip (186217) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929832)

If you'd turn away from your thrice daily dose of 'liberal outrage', and crawl out of your parent's basement, you'd realize that the 'Nazi Socialist PC ball buster' only really exists in the minds of men who are insecure about their own masculinity. Others who continue propagate such trash, do so as they believe that some reward could be gained (ratings, votes, book sales, and other forms of income in particular).

Re:uh oh (4, Insightful)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930004)

Oh, I guarantee that women like that exist. There is simply too much diversity in the world for them not to. It's the principle of "If you can think of something, it already exists on the Internet, and there's probably already fetish porn about it."

But while I wouldn't call you a "Nazi Socialist PC ball buster", look what you did here: "men who are insecure about their own masculinity."

I don't disagree that it's possible to be feminist without being a feminazi, and you may even be right that the feminazi is a myth. But I've seen women propagate and participate in that myth.

When attacking others for their intolerance or prejudice, it helps to not be showing your own prejudice in the same breath. (Not even going to start with the "crawl out of your parent's basement" comment.)

Re:uh oh (1)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930104)

Of course their masculinity is threatened. What psycho-sexual complex do you think something like this [hillarynutcracker.com] springs from if it weren't?

Re:uh oh (1)

c6gunner (950153) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930500)

Of course their masculinity is threatened. What psycho-sexual complex do you think something like this springs from if it weren't?
Since when is humour a psycho-sexual complex? :/

typical (-1, Troll)

rednip (186217) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930206)

When attacking others for their intolerance or prejudice, it helps to not be showing your own prejudice in the same breath. Not even going to start with the "crawl out of your parent's basement" comment
Awe, the crass trash talking fool, all got his feelings hurt, I'm sorry :(. But perhaps before you lecture me on my manners, I believe that you owe the comic book lady an sincere apology. Otherwise your words ring hollow. You just can't take what you so freely dish out, how typical.

Oh, I guarantee that women like that exist. There is simply too much diversity in the world for them not to.

Perhaps, but you will never meet one (feminist BB that is), and one is extremely more likely to run across a man who is a rapist, murder, a liar, 'insecure about their own masculinity' or living in their parents basement.

Re:typical (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930502)

Really you are the insecure one. Here is a nice gender neutral phrase for you. Go fuck yourself, no one gives a shit. Thanks for playing though.

Re:typical (1)

keeboo (724305) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930524)

Perhaps, but you will never meet one (feminist BB that is), and one is extremely more likely to run across a man who is a rapist, murder, a liar, 'insecure about their own masculinity' or living in their parents basement.

Oh, please.. quit this crap.
Feminists always come with arguments on how women are the default victims and stuff, and assume that women have no issues whatsoever.
When feminists speak, there's always a logical explanation for a woman's actions. But a man's actions always fit in the rape-murder-domination-masculine_insecurity category.

And this 'masculinity insecurity' argument is so tired is not even an argument. Nowadays it's simply a way women, ones with issues, found to offend men.

Re:typical (0, Flamebait)

rednip (186217) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930592)

Feminists always come with arguments on how women are the default victims and stuff, and assume that women have no issues whatsoever.When feminists speak, there's always a logical explanation for a woman's actions. But a man's actions always fit in the rape-murder-domination-masculine_insecurity category.

I didn't say that there aren't any psyco bitches, trust me, there are plenty of them and most don't even call themselves feminists. However that wasn't germane to the conversation. Nor did I say that all men are like that, I'm a guy and that's not me. I just said that one is more likely to find a man (or a woman for that matter) of that ilk than the above described militant feminist. Hell, I've only seen them on TV, the loud mouths always end up on TV, it's good for ratings.

Hell, it still amazes me that you guys seem to be making excuses for the original troll, somehow pretending that he had a point and was right to bully a woman on her significant accomplishment. !Nice.

Re:typical (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930650)

not really, your validating her emotions for the cause of the all important self-esteem and encouraging her to misinterpret her local environment.

No, they do exist. (3, Interesting)

rjh (40933) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930142)

In 1993 I was a freshman at a large university. I saw a fellow student staggering under a double armload of textbooks, and I did precisely what I would do for any student in a fellow situation: I opened the door. The fact this student was female had no bearing on my decision. In return for this, I got a glare and then a shouted "You know, it's because of domineering, overbearing males like you that one in four college women is raped!" Then she stormed off and found another entrance to the building, just so she could avoid the door I opened for her.

But wait, she's not the caricature the far-right draws of the militant feminist. She was just a jerk. Women can be jerks as easily as men.

A few years ago I was talking to a Women's Studies professor at Florida State and I related this story. I also mentioned how angry I had been at the time, still was, to be lumped in with rapists just because I opened a door for someone who had a double armload of books. This professor listened, considered her words very carefully, and then said clearly I needed to take her introductory Women's Studies course so that I could understand the jerk's "context". I said I didn't really care about her context, it was a stupid comparison to make, and the hate directed at me was entirely undeserved and uncivilized. "Yes, but that's the point, you see," she explained to me patiently. "You've never opened your eyes and thought about what sort of life experiences could make her react in such a way, or the actions you did which provoked this response. You only care about your own male-oriented view and undercutting the validity of her life experience." (I am not quoting her exactly, but I am quoting her pretty darn close. It's been a few years, but the outrageousness of the dialog has made it stick in my memory very clearly.)

She went on for about another ten minutes before I had enough and stormed away.

The woman in 1993 was just a jerk. The Florida State Women's Studies prof who defended her and not once expressed a sentiment of "yes, she was a jerk"? She was the right-wing caricature of a feminazi.

Fortunately, people like her seem to be rare. At least, I've never found one outside of a Women's Studies department. (And I've met one Women's Studies prof since then who characterized the Florida State prof as "what a bitch!", which did my heart no end of good.)

Re:No, they do exist. (-1, Flamebait)

rednip (186217) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930282)

I got a glare and then a shouted "You know, it's because of domineering, overbearing males like you that one in four college women is raped!"

So a 5 second reaction from a girl who might have emotional problems proves that these women exist. Well, ok then. Furthermore, a conversation where you presented yourself as a victim, didn't go over so well:

You've never opened your eyes and thought about what sort of life experiences could make her react in such a way, or the actions you did which provoked this response. You only care about your own male-oriented view and undercutting the validity of her life experience.

Replace 'male-centered' with 'self centered', and I think that she pretty much hit it right on the nose. Really, I'm sorry that you were 'scarred' by your 'book carrying event' but men and women both say stupid things all the time. Have you ever even considered that you scared her and she was searching for a reason to explain it? (I didn't think so)

The original poster laid a scathing attack on a artist for her significant accomplishment. Those kind of attacks against women success are far more common and, sadly, accepted. I won't, but you seem to.

Re:No, they do exist. (2, Insightful)

bombshelter13 (786671) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930326)

The point is that if the girl carrying the books would have reacted any differently to a female who'd attempted to help her with the door*, then her reaction was inappropriate. Regardless of any life experiences she may have had, her reaction was sexist and uncalled for. No possible (or impossible but theoretically describable) life experience could make this action non-sexist. This is not to say that her life experiences do not have value, it is to say that the value of her life experience (whatever that may be) and the appropriateness (is that a word) of her choice of reaction are in no way connected. * Before anyone jumps on my saying 'how do you know she wouldn't have said the same thing to a female who'd helped her, well, the rather gender specific nature of the words in her reaction leaves me to believe she would have taken a third option. If you honestly, seriously, believe she would have reacted identically, keeping in mind that reacting identically requires her refer to the female assisting her as an 'overbearing man', then I cannot argue with you.

To sum up (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930458)

Scared people react badly sometimes. I suspect that's what the academic was talking about with "context". It sounds like quite a harmless act intending to be helpful caused a bit of association there and got the reaction. Misunderstandings often for incedibly stupid reasons happen sometimes just due to eye contact - don't worry about it and don't assume you can define somebodies personality from one bad reaction.

Re:No, they do exist. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930498)

Bending over backwards and patronizing offers the path of least resistance and does the most unsaid harm.

You probably made her feel obligated to rush and she beaked off using the most readily available 'advice'.

where's the tenderness? (2, Interesting)

rednip (186217) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930534)

Still, no compassion for this girl you scared, and it's fairly clear that you scared her. Yes, it's likely she might have acted different if some girl ran up. However, just imagine a shy girl, first semester (maybe) in a large University , away from home, maybe just out of the 'date rape discussion' they force on every freshmen, walking back to her dorm, minding her own business. Random guy comes up and without any introduction get into her personal space. Then she gives a quick not even half though explanation, about why she got jumpy, but that proves she is a militant feminist.

What you should have done was announce yourself, saying perhaps 'let me get that for you'. I do it all the time, and a couple of times I've had them size me up for a second, in particular when I've blindsided them. I sincerely hope that someone doesn't judge you as harshly. Dude, you really need to take a fresh look at both of those conversations, I'll be that you see them differently, if you step back from yourself.

Re:where's the tenderness? (1)

trytoguess (875793) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930726)

Er... no, being told there's a 25% chance of rape is no excuse, especially when you're in campus during the day with at least some people who can hear you. If I start giving women special treatments in such situations then I'll be forcing myself to believe that women are inferior to men in some way, and frankly I don't want to do that. It'll be like me after hearing theft is rising, accusing someone of stealing when they help me say... pick up my wallet. She might have been scared, but her actions were inexcusable, no justification can change that.

Astounding ! (-1, Troll)

rednip (186217) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930854)

She might have been scared, but her actions were inexcusable, no justification can change that.

Astounding! I dare you to put that in your sig. Do you want to be held accountable for that?

What if I told you that there is a 25% chance of getting pounded (unwilling) in the ass? I'll bet dollars to a dough nut that you'll think 'don't ass fuck me', and maybe even say it when presented unexpectedly with an event associated with it. I've said similar thoughts with nearly every post to this thread, but you'all seem to hoping to validate 'your' anger toward women. Slashdot on a late Saturday is weird.

Re:No, they do exist. (3, Insightful)

toiletsalmon (309546) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930522)

"So a 5 second reaction from a girl who might have emotional problems proves that these women exist. Well, ok then."

Yes, I believe it does prove that she was a "Feminist Ball Buster". She was hostile and showed aggression towards a man for no real reason so to speak, and then insulted him BECAUSE he was a man. That seems rather feminist to me, and I think it was pretty obvious that she was, indeed "busting his balls". I'm glad we agree on that :)

"Furthermore, a conversation where you presented yourself as a victim, didn't go over so well:"

Same thing here. She was taking a "feminist" position here. Maybe she wasn't "busting his balls" per se, but that was feminist jibba-jabba if I've ever heard it.

The problem with many (not all, many) feminists is that they really don't give a damn about empowering women (which I'm all for BTW). They've got their own agenda that has to do with taking power away from the "rich white man" and then using it to "get even" with him for all the bad things that he's done. On the one hand, that might not be such a bad idea, but on the other hand swapping one abusive "master" for an abusive "mastress" isn't really what I'd call progress, and it certainly isn't in the spirit of equality. At least what I would call equality.

Granted, the aforementioned professor wasn't THAT extreme in her beliefs, but she was on the other side of the same page because what she was basically saying is that the "book girl" deserved some special type of consideration because her genitals are on the inside. Special treatment and equality are usually mutually exclusive.

If any man said that men should bet treated differently just because his genitals are on the outside of his body, most people would say that he was a chauvinistic jerk. Why should it be any different for women?

Culture of fear (0, Flamebait)

rednip (186217) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930708)

Please tell me how the OP in this thread was somehow 'right'. People (including women) have been using the specter of the 'scary feminist' for so long it's gotten really old, but I'm sure that your glad that women can be random attacked in such manner. In particular when they dare to enter a male realm.

The problem with many (not all, many) feminists is that they really don't give a damn about empowering women (which I'm all for BTW)

Really? All for? Sounds to me that your tolerance only last until they speak up for themselves and express their own opinions. Of course you'd probably object if I called you a right wing tool, and while it might be fun do so, there is a chance that I'm not entirely right, but hey, you're quick to judge harshly, so I should as well.

They've got their own agenda that has to do with taking power away from the "rich white man" and then using it to "get even" with him for all the bad things that he's done.

So, these evil feminist are like the Black Panthers [wikipedia.org] . Wow, f*****g culture of fear. The tell you of the most fringe elements of any movement, not even a complete picture, and you take it as gospel. Ditto heads, go figure.

Re:No, they do exist. (1)

freeweed (309734) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930836)

And there are some men out there (not all, some) who think that women are their toys, and beat the shit out of them every night.

But you don't see me going on some page-long diatribe trying desperately to prove they exist, and furthermore, explaining their motivations.

Yes folks, news flash - bizarre extremes of humanity exist. Typically in very small numbers. It's when you hop up on your soapbox trying to act personally offended about it that people start to wonder about your motivations.

The point of this sub-thread is seriously lost on me.

Re:No, they do exist. (1)

c6gunner (950153) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930532)

Replace 'male-centered' with 'self centered', and I think that she pretty much hit it right on the nose. Really, I'm sorry that you were 'scarred' by your 'book carrying event' but men and women both say stupid things all the time. Have you ever even considered that you scared her and she was searching for a reason to explain it?
From the PP:

"The woman in 1993 was just a jerk. The Florida State Women's Studies prof who defended her and not once expressed a sentiment of 'yes, she was a jerk'? She was the right-wing caricature of a feminazi."

You've attempted not only to defend the original sexist jerk, but you've also attempted to defend the professor who was defending her. Congrats, Red, you fit the description of "right-wing caricature of a femenazi" even better than that prof did.

Re:No, they do exist. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930790)

Congrats, Red, you fit the description of "right-wing caricature of a femenazi" even better than that prof did.
Culture of fear and hate, you've been brought up with it from birth, I bet. !goodluckwiththat.

No, they do exist-Karma. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930644)

"Replace 'male-centered' with 'self centered', and I think that she pretty much hit it right on the nose. Really, I'm sorry that you were 'scarred' by your 'book carrying event' but men and women both say stupid things all the time. Have you ever even considered that you scared her and she was searching for a reason to explain it? (I didn't think so)"

There's a subtlety I don't think you realize at work here. The myth of the perfect person. What's that? "But I didn't say that!" No you didn't...directly. The myth of the perfect person basically is..."I'm perfect...BUT!" With the "BUT" being replaced by some external agent whom blame (and negative consequences.) can be directed at.

Note I'm NOT avoiding the effects of others actions, but pointing out that if everyone took responsability of their (re)actions however inconsiquentual they might be. Ripple-effects would see to it that the good results wouldn't stay confined, and maybe the overall burden would be lesser.

Note that no one would ever says that avoiding exercise, and indulging in bad food habits is a better way to build a person, but we constantly try to avoid the weights that try our spiritual and moral muscles and eat an unhealthy mental and emotional diet and wonder why we're all out of shape for the inevitable hills an imperfect world offers.

Re:No, they do exist. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930330)

I would have spit in her face. She's a bad guy, like a nazi or someone breaking into your home to rape your daughter.

Spewing ideology like drunk, sex and regret should tell you everything.

Only on Slashdot (0, Troll)

rednip (186217) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930772)

A +5 for a long winded story about two chance encounters with women who didn't say 'nice things'.

I like slashdot, but it says something that when someone defends an innocent woman against a baseless attack by insulting the poster, this post gets moderated better. One gets tired claiming every little expect ion when responding to a troll, and for the record one might note that . Then this guy jumps in and says 'really, I've seen one', I wasn't talking about unicorns, I was talking of a fringe woman's political movement and took a good guess that the OP has never met a real one, and certainly not well enough to understand her issues. Talk radio is full of blow hards who use such talk for their own advantage, and one doesn't have to go any father than this story to see it's affect.

Usually Slashdot is much more reasonable, but apparently not when it comes to a woman's right not be randomly insulted. I know that in the end you were just trying to be nice. But trust me, you scared her, and she blurted out the first excuse that came to mind, the other girl recognized it, and was likely pissed that you didn't see it.

Re:uh oh (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930270)

"If you'd turn away from your thrice daily dose of 'liberal outrage', and crawl out of your parent's basement, you'd realize that the 'Nazi Socialist PC ball buster' only really exists in the minds of men who are insecure about their own masculinity."

Sorry, you are wrong. Some women take pride being just that, and they announce it loudly. You really should look around a little bit more.
Also, stop propagating the 'basement' stereo type, it only make you look stupid and petty.

Re:uh oh (1)

rednip (186217) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930414)

Sorry, you are wrong. Some women take pride being just that, and they announce it loudly. You really should look around a little bit more.

Not one of the three posts I've responded to even indicated that the OP was an ass. Instead you'all seem to insist that they do exist, and actually you are right, they do, it's a big world and not enough people are on lithium. Claiming that some random loser on the internet lives in his parent's basement is far more likely on target, and nowhere near the insult that was given. One is far more likely to find a right wing nut job than a militant feminist, and I believe that I've done angered a whole nest of them, again.

BTW, for the record, I'm a dude, and I'd hardly call myself a feminist, but I really hate it when women of are subject to these sorts of bulling. Congratulations on your post, I'm sure that some idiot will take it as further proof that women deserve this kind of treatment.

Re:uh oh (1)

Chuqmystr (126045) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930432)

Eon Flux: Dead. Reborn. Dead. Reborn. Dead. Reborn. Dead -- if [ "Eon" = "dead" ]; then rebirth; fi Eon rulez (please excuse 5kr1pt k1dd13 speak) Eon, will you please marry me? Nevemind my current wife - lets move to U**** where it's alright and we can build a super secret superhero fortress/luv-nest in the desert and thwart dickhead badguys together ;-) I'm an old married geek. If I comment anymore I'll just shoot myself in the foot again. Ah, what the hell, This *term zombie says "Send more r0x0r Eon - type grrrlz..." Mod me down - I'm going to bed, screw you clowns! Now just where'd I leave my false teeth and ankle wrap? Grumble... complain... ZZzzzzz....

Boilerplate (1)

Dobeln (853794) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930652)

"the 'Nazi Socialist PC ball buster' only really exists in the minds of men who are insecure about their own masculinity."

You would be more convincing if you left out at least the most tired of Nazi-Socialist-PC-ball-busting clichés.

It's a male thing. (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929732)

Women won't understand.

Fine by me... (0, Troll)

merc (115854) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929758)

as long as the new Wonder Woman has big boobies and wears a skimpy patriotic bikini.

*blinks*

what?

Re:Fine by me... (2, Interesting)

ILuvRamen (1026668) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930182)

funny you should mention this. I saw something on the history channel about Wonder Woman and way back in the day when it first came out, even the author admits it was practically kinky porn with clothes on. It was like some pervy bondage comic. They showed shots of some pages and I was like WHOA seriously wtf.

There's a reason for it. (1, Flamebait)

Token_Internet_Girl (1131287) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929768)

Jack Nicholson was once asked in a movie, "How do you write about women so well?" to which he replied "I think of a man. Then I take away reason and accountability." Comics are boys club because boys don't want to read soap opera emo trash. Not that I'm a traitor to my gender, its just that its true. So maybe if this chick can bring those two little spices into the comic, she deserves to write it.

Re:There's a reason for it. (1)

vajaradakini (1209944) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929980)

Not every woman writes "soap opera emo trash" and not all comic book readers are men (as the article discussed, if you felt like reading it).

Re:There's a reason for it. (1)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930046)

Boys have always fawned over soap opera emo trash. Name any popular superhero who hasn't spent time drowning in angst and self-doubt. What would you expect in the wish-fulfillment fantasies of the awkward and outcast?

No, they'll read anything if there is fighting involved and nothing that threatens their sexual self-image.

Re:There's a reason for it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930202)

Actually, hardwired for sex.

A rush of serotonin when encountering the right kind of skin tone(s), eyes, mouth, etc... impedes normal thought processes, making some people a lot more interesting then they actually are. After a hell of a lot repetition, the Pavlovian effect begins to show it's ugly head and it's too late (providing he didn't get her knocked up to begin with).

I've been making faces (zoned out, whatever you want to call it) since I was a baby. It's not sexual, or at least it doesn't have to be. Stops being cute at about ten and starts being creepy at 12. It's kinda like Stan from South Park alway puking on Wendy.

In other words... (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930184)

It's a boy's club because it's a boy's club?

That is, there are more men writing comics because there are more boys reading comics?

I mean, not that I mind it -- I do feel that soap opera emo trash doesn't help anyone, and I am a guy, after all. But I wonder, is there something about the medium itself that would prevent soap opera emo trash from succeeding?

Re:There's a reason for it. (1)

kaizokuace (1082079) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930570)

guys will read soap opera emo trash, if you wrap it up in political intrigue. If you have read tale of genji you will see that essentially one of the first illustrated books(or scrolls) was total emo drama just with politics and stuff.

What about the woman last year? (5, Informative)

JustJon (731538) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929770)

Is this really such a big break when novelist Jodi Picoult wrote Wonder Woman last year, and is a woman herself?

Re:What about the woman last year? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930180)

Picoult's run was very short-lived and really quite terrible. She wrote Wonder Woman as a ditz who didn't know how to order a cup of coffee or how to fill a gas-tank. After only a few issues it's clear that Simone's Wonder Woman is superior by every standard.

Nobody in the kitchen!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929788)

That's the only reason women aren't being killed off too much: There's nobody in the kitchen anymore.

What about Marsden's Bondage Themes? (4, Interesting)

Bonker (243350) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929798)

William Marsden created Wonder Woman as a role model of what he considered feminine strengths. These are very much the traditional 'yin' feminine values and focused less on female empowerment and much more on beauty, demure behavior, and obedience. Women can be strong, Marsden reasoned, by focusing on their womanhood and need not waste time trying to fit into male roles.

Marsden was also a bit of a pervert. His wife and their live-in slave... er... maid, lived in more-or-less open polygamy. They were his bondage slaves, and were apparently quite happy to be so. This theme, of feminine happiness through obedience and subservience, is repeated frequently through Wonder Woman. Not only did Wonder Woman frequently get tied up with her own magic lasso, but pretty much all the Amazon girls loved being bound, spanked, or otherwise disciplined by their superiors.

While you may disagree with Marsden's symbolism, any retelling of Wonder Woman that leaves out the bondage isn't really doing the subject very much justice. Wonderwoman need not end up stuffed in a refrigerator, but she does need to be frequently paddled to keep the story moving.

Re:What about MARSTON's Bondage Themes? (2, Informative)

Bonker (243350) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929834)

Hmmph. I spelled his name wrong. It's Marston [wikipedia.org] and not Marsden. I should be bound and flogged by nubile Amazon warrior maidens.

Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.


Interestingly, Marston is also frequently credited as the inventor of the Polygraph. He discouraged its use as a law enforcement device.

Re:What about Marsden's Bondage Themes? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930236)

No discussion of Wonder Woman's bondage themes would be complete without pics...

http://www.superdickery.com/bondage/1.html [superdickery.com]

Suffering Sapho! I really hope Gail Simone does bring back the bondage.

HAHAHAHAHahahaha (0)

geekoid (135745) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930254)

"William Marsden created Wonder Woman as a role model of what he considered feminine strengths."

He created her because he liked to dominate women with bondage. Not exactly an example of feminine strength.

Intersting my ass.

Re:HAHAHAHAHahahaha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930794)

Feminism was about the right to choose, not just to be like men. Some women like to be dominated and bound. Do you, the big strong man, need to protect them from themselves?

Heh (1, Insightful)

Moraelin (679338) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930808)

Heh... so basically you're saying that it started as a pervert's and misogynist's substitute for porn. Even the sophistry about a female's role and strength being reduced to obedience and modesty isn't entirely a new philosophical concept, it's pretty much standard misogynistic stuff.

Well, gee, I guess you illustrate perfectly why women didn't really take her as a role model.

Work as a blogger? (5, Informative)

Telvin_3d (855514) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929800)

Her work as a blogger? Simone has been working in the comics industry for almost a decade now and got the job of writing Wonder Woman due to a solid history of writing well crafted, memorable, stories. She has worked for both the major comic companies and a few of the minor ones writing everything from established superhero books to quirky creator-owned stuff. To suggest that she got a high profile job because of her BLOG is kind of insulting to the hard work she has put in over the years.

Re:Work as a blogger? (2, Informative)

\\ (118555) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929850)

Her blog got her noticed at CBR, which got her noticed by Bongo, which eventually got her noticed by Marvel & DC, which eventually got her a Wonder Woman job. It took close to ten years, but that was the progression. Yes, she's talented, and her humble beginnings in the comic book industry begain with a blog.

Gail Simone didn't "get" anything because of her blog, she earned her way as a good writer that got noticed and continues to do so. The path she took just happened to start with a blog. What are you so defensive about?

Excuse me? (3, Interesting)

Frisbee_Chick (1213602) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929830)

Um...yeah...but no

Read the rant. Completely disagree. FYI I don't have hairy pits or legs.

Doesn't every character/hero of consequence go through some life-defining moment. She writes as is every female goes off to a grimson end or a tragic moment but uh hello...there's life....there's character building...there's a good friggin story.

Look at the list and it blatantly leaves out key figures in the comic universes. Examples:

Superman died

Batman was paralyzed only to come back and take out the sorry sack of shit who replaced him

Robin died

Spawn was a crusader who was reborn in hell...how more tragic is fighting for what you believe to be a noble cause and hello you go straight to hell

Wolverine was used, abused, lost his memory and then ended up working for the X-men

Sorry...but a personal pet peeve is a feminist fight without a true argument. Sorry to say but women were allowed the same fates as men. I personally love when the woman is a villain. At least we're acknowledged as a threat. A good story always involves a sad or grimsom moment for the lead character. Thankfully women have been subjected to same fates of men in the comic world.

Re:Excuse me? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930010)

The complaint was that too many comic writers treated female characters as disposable than male characters. Female characters lack the permanence of male characters. When a writer wants to kill off a character for shock value, to give a character "depth" by putting them through something traumatic, or just to change the direction of the plot from where a previous writer was taking it, female characters tend to be the most convenient targets.

Re:Excuse me? (1)

Planesdragon (210349) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930136)

When a writer wants to kill off a character for shock value, to give a character "depth" by putting them through something traumatic, or just to change the direction of the plot from where a previous writer was taking it, female characters tend to be the most convenient targets.
Odd. Care to name examples?

There'll be a little bit of a slant towards women being victims, because so often the lead of a comic is a man, and you can't kill off the lead and keep your book going strong. And since most comic heroes have a love interest, and aren't gay, you have your slant towards women being victims.

Maybe it's just because I read Marvel instead of DC or Image. I gotta love a company that puts all heroes through crap equally.

Re:Excuse me? (2, Insightful)

Kierthos (225954) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930476)

Okay, how about Kyle Rayner's (the Green Lantern replacement after Hal Jordan was possessed by the Parallax entity) girlfriend, killed by Major Force and stuffed in a fridge? Or Kyle's mom, killed by one of the Sinestro Corps?

How about the incidents which started the Identity Crisis in DC? Those would be the (revealed as a past event) rape of the Elongated Man's wife, Sue Dibny, and then later her murder? Oh, and the ultimate culprit of it was Jean Loring, the ex-wife of the Atom.

Superman dies during the attack by Doomsday, but he ends up coming back. Hippolyta (Wonder Woman's mother) dies during the fight with Imperiex and stays dead. Batman gets his back broken by Bane in the Knightfall arc but ends up getting better. Barbara Gordon is partially paralyzed by the Joker in Batman: The Killing Joke and never regains the use of her legs (well, okay, for like two issues in Birds of Prey she does).

Do you need more examples?

Re:Excuse me? (0, Troll)

dasunt (249686) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930024)

Women can't be true villains.

They are just naive and confused, and thus easily wander astray!

It is only men that have the higher brain capacity to be evil.

Women, being the weaker sex, need to be protected by staying in a safe place. Preferably the kitchen. And since they are in there, they can make me a sammich. :p



This was sarcasm, for the humor-impaired.

Re:Excuse me? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930088)

And since they are in there, they can make me a sammich. :p


: ^ D

Re:Excuse me? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930166)

That's great and all, but what guy uses the word sammich? Last I heard, that word was popularised by Food Network's pet star Rachael Ray.

Re:Excuse me? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930176)

Oh, THAT is why they say sarcasm is the lowest form of humour.

just kidding. what. oops. oh.

Re:Excuse me? (1)

Cosmic AC (1094985) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930070)

What is grimson/grimsom?

Re:Excuse me? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930234)

uh hello.. grimson/grimsom is a word used by uh hello.. like people who read too much graphic literature and skip the uh like word boxes and stuff.. like..

Re:Excuse me? (1)

Kierthos (225954) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930506)

Superman ended up coming back to life.

So did Robin (Jason Todd). Robin (Stephanie Brown) is still dead. Maybe.

Re:Excuse me? (1)

foreverdisillusioned (763799) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930864)

All dead superheroes will come back to life eventually, so long as they're popular enough. Neither DC nor Marvel is going to permanently kill of anyone of any gender unless they are looking unprofitable.

Dead Men Walking (1)

Per Abrahamsen (1397) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930896)

She wrote another "answer" rant called "Dead Men Walking", which selectively listed male heroes who had died and came back.

Her rants could probably be used in a textbook as an extreme example of biased sampling. They are extremely annoying to anyone with a science background, or people otherwise inclined to rational thought.

However, given her background as a hairdresser, one can maybe excuse the poor reasoning, and praise the clear prose. Too much logic is probably a handicap when writing superhero comics, if there is anything the superhero genre does not lend itself to, it is logic.

Next thing you know... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929844)

...niggers will be writing the comics starring their filthy kind.

Oh wait, niggers can't read or write. No worries!

Re:Next thing you know... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930574)

I guess the longer this retarded thread continues, I should add my take...

In response to the comment above this.. That was pretty dumb.. Please untie all the black people and women in your basement that are still alive.. Maybe you should come my way; my AR-15, let me show it to you. Please tell your klan buddies I have some 7.62 mm pudding and pie here waiting for them too..

I do enjoy all the bra-burning femi-nazi responses, even the chicks who are in total femi-nazi denial.

I got a gal who I swear is outta 1949. Keeping her man happy makes her happy. Is she the chosen one sent to destroy the fem-nazi movement in this overly-politically correct world? She's my fucking super hero.

Retardo slashdot mods please mod this down.. and by the way, this new DHTML and/or AJAX comment viewing system is totally fucking retarded. I'll slowly stop reading /. now because I cant see comments nested and in the order they were submitted. Instead I have to slide a slider and then click "More" about 60 times...

Re:Next thing you know... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930752)

and by the way, this new DHTML and/or AJAX comment viewing system is totally fucking retarded. I'll slowly stop reading /. now because I cant see comments nested and in the order they were submitted. Instead I have to slide a slider and then click "More" about 60 times...
Create an account. Move the dark gray slider on the annoying floating thing down as far as it will go. This will prevent comments from being hidden. I personally drag the white slider down until everything modded above 0 is expanded. This way I can click to expand comments by AC's and read trolls (trolls are the reason /. is my favorite site). If you click the "/" button on the annoying floating thing it stops floating and docks above the comments.

By having an account the settings will be saved so you don't have to set them again. You can still post anonymously by checking "Post Anonymously". Once set up like that the new comment system is freaking sweet Works great, even on threads with hundreds of comments. Plus, no captha's.

one thing's for sure (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929878)

No matter who writes Wonder Woman, we can all agree on one thing: that's one fine pair of funbags filling out that top.

So...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929890)

Isn't it about time we stopped celebrating every time a woman works in a "geek" job, with the implication they're overcoming the sexism of the powers-that-be in industry or some other such nonsense?

I'm sorry, but I don't believe the prejudice is there. These are simply businesses that attract men (and geeky ones at that.) If you have to ask why, then you never went to junior high. Geeky girls don't find solace in video games and superhero comics the same way boys do (barring exceptions, I'm speaking for millions here), and certainly don't aspire to make them their careers.

I've worked in comics. Trust me, the editors would love to have more female artists and writers involved, but the applicants just aren't there in any significant numbers. And by the way once you start delving into the indie comics scene, which is closer to "art", you'll find that easily a quarter to a third of the creators are women. They do like the medium of cartooning, it seems, they just don't care about superheroes.

Re:So...? (1)

dosius (230542) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929938)

Seems to be more woman comic authors in Japan.

Naoko Takeuchi did a comic in 1992 that became not one, but TWO TV series...one ran for 200 eps, the other for 51...

-uso.

Re:So...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930488)

Thank you, I was just wondering what my next anime series should be. I don't care what the premise is, if it ran for 200 episodes, it has to be good!

Re:So...? (1)

dosius (230542) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930824)

I was referring, of course, to Sailor Moon.

BTW, Pokemon's run for I want to say 500-some-aught eps already and still running...

-uso.

Fingers Crossed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929924)

That she's not going to be a self-righteous, smug, dismissive, bore who thinks physics is a construct of man and her pussy is a weapon of war.

Positive female role models (and not the kind whose beating a guy up) are hard to come by. Usually ploys of conformity for reliable demographical behavior in buying and voting.

The Great Theme Music (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929932)

Television adaptations of comic books have left us with some truly great musical TV themes:
  1. Batman
  2. Wonder Woman
  3. Spider-Man
Have I missed any?

Hip and edgy... (0, Troll)

Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS- (624050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21929950)

How is the comics business doing? Still trying to be hip and edgy, but saddled with a failing business model?

Re:Hip and edgy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930044)

Umm... we are talking about the comics industry, not the music industry.

Re:Hip and edgy... (0, Offtopic)

Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS- (624050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930338)

So? You think people dont scan them and upload them all the time? It is arguably just as easy to download a comic as it is to drive to a store and buy it.

A female point of view (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929974)

Superman is flying around the world looking for villains, while he discover that Wonder Woman is laying on a grass field, completely naked and legs open. He thinks "this is my occasion, she always said no to me" and using his super-speed, penetrates her like this: ba-dang! and then flies away. At that point, the invisible man says - ouch! what a pain in the ass!

Wonder Woman Turns Feminist (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929988)

Oh, Please! Now Wonder Woman is going to turn into some feminist claiming oppression by the male race ...

rhymes with french toast (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21929990)

FFfffffffffFFFFfffffffffffffFffffffff
ppPpppPPPPPPpppppppppppPpppppppppp

FROST IT BITCHES

Cooking (0, Flamebait)

Tweekster (949766) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930080)

Makes perfect sense, she really should be cooking and cleaning. and as another poster mentioned, skimpy bikini is preferable.

Why do women wear white on their wedding day?
so the dishwasher matches the oven

With any luck (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930280)

The next story will be about a foreigner and we will get to hear some jokes about them, preferably a light bulb joke.

Jackass.

Re:With any luck (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21930558)

How many foreigners does it take to change a lightbulb?

gee, they have lighbulbs over there?

Re:Cooking (1)

c6gunner (950153) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930492)

Next time you find yourself wondering why no woman will sleep with you, refer back to this comment.

Simone on Wonder Woman? News from April, 2007. (2, Informative)

JoshDM (741866) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930278)

Slow News Day at Slashdot if you're covering something that was announced almost a year ago.

breaking news... about 2 months ago (1)

Lalo Martins (2050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930294)

come on, doesn't anybody here read comics? CBR? Wizard? Wow.

Re:breaking news... about 2 months ago (1)

Khyber (864651) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930474)

Goes to show you just how much of /.'s population truly are geeks.

*goes to grab his latest Wizard to check price on an original, mint, 1st edition M:TG Black Lotus*

this makes as much sense (3, Insightful)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 6 years ago | (#21930676)

as a romance novel written from the point of view of the ridiculously sensitive male leads in the story:

"your tits are huge, let's shag"

yeah, that's going to sell romance novels

impossible proportioned female superheroes exist to satisfy the id of prepubescent boys. there is no female pov to these characters that has any meaning. they are stereotypical characters meant to satisfy male views about solving problems by fighting. women have their own fantasy fiction with impossible male characters meant to satisfy female views about the glory of courtship with a great guy

why mess with these shallow fantasies? nothing is improved, the value of the characters are just negated for their intended audiences
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