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iPhone Forcing Open Wireless Networks?

samzenpus posted more than 6 years ago | from the open-up dept.

Cellphones 291

fermion writes "Wired asserts that the iPhone blew up the wireless industry. This article argues that because Apple demanded the opportunity to control their own phone, and ATT née Cingular agreed, other companies are opening up the networks, and Google now has the opportunity to make Android a reality. There are other tidbits. Allegedly Verizon turned Jobs down without even listening to his pitch, a decision they may well regret now that they are hemorrhaging customers. Also, that Motorola and the networks were responsible for the fiasco dubbed the ROKR, something which I believe given how damaged the American version of the RAZR was compared to international version. It also estimates that the iPhone cost upward of $150 million to design, and earns Apple about $200 profit per phone."

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291 comments

US, welcome to the world (5, Interesting)

Marcion (876801) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982154)

Europe and most of the rest of the world has GSM and GSM alone. You can take a SIM card from any carrier and put it in any phone. It has always been like that.

Re:US, welcome to the world (3, Informative)

4D6963 (933028) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982204)

You can take a SIM card from any carrier and put it in any phone.

Provided that your phone is un-simlocked, yes. Besides when you say "GSM alone" does it exclude GRPS and UMTS? Cause we have that too. Not sure if we have EDGE tho.

Re:US, welcome to the world (4, Informative)

Marcion (876801) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982270)

I simply meant that it is not like America where there are different phone connection protocols with different levels of reception depending on where you are, there is just one across the whole of Europe. Of course, if you actually try to use your phone across Europe then they kill you with the roaming charges, but at least it means if you buy an unlocked phone then you can use it anywhere.

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

IndustrialComplex (975015) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982550)

Of course, if you actually try to use your phone across Europe then they kill you with the roaming charges, but at least it means if you buy an unlocked phone then you can use it anywhere.

Not having used a cell phone in Europe, I'm a bit curious about this.

The ability to take a phone from one carrier to the next isn't as important to me as the ability to take my phone from one area to the next. Since I have no demand for any of the higher phone features (in fact, I had to search out one w/o a camera) for me at least, the demand to have a phone portable between carriers is much less important.

However, I think the rates charged by most companies in the US are outrageous. I'm locked into an old plan through Verizon, still using my old phone, and they continually try to 'upgrade' my plan to their 700+ minute plans when I'm still only using 40-100/month (and paying a lot less). I love how the 'upgrade' is free, but ties you into another 2 year contract.

Re:US, welcome to the world (4, Informative)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982688)

Its not just Europe, its the entire world.

I can take my Aussie (where I live) phone and bring it to Turkey (where I am atm) and it will work fine.
I also have the option of swapping SIM cards to a turkish one to save money.

I actually didnt know that the US wasnt like this.
Seems kinda (well *really*) stupid to me. :)

Re:US, welcome to the world (3, Informative)

EggyToast (858951) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982878)

ATT (Cingular) is GSM, as is a few other companies. They have essentially identical coverage as the other companies, so it will work -- you just won't be able to buy "any ol' SIM"

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

AvitarX (172628) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982928)

Well,

with the exception of buying a cheap (under 30 Euro) phone I was able to do the same (considering I didn't pay for my initial phone, and pay far less monthly than people I know in Europe, I don't find that too expensive).

I was able to place my T-mobile SIM into the other phone, and get coverage in Switzerland, Germany, and Austria.

I don't know what European (or Aussie) minutes cost, but the privledge cost me $1.00/minute to call home and $2.00 to call Europe (roaming and ridiculous LD, calling Europe from home by land line is .10-.30/minute and doing it with a land line calling card is .03-.06

I would think ATT/Cingular work the same way.

The price of a free phone (about $150.00 off) was paying $65.00/month for a year with 1500 minutes, 300 Text Messages and unlimited (used my minutes) GPRS.

Re:US, welcome to the world (3, Interesting)

rbanffy (584143) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982774)

"Since I have no demand for any of the higher phone features"

It sounds suspiciously like the folks who thought they didn't need a cellphone because they never had one before ;-)

I too didn't knew how nice is to have web browsing, high speed data connections or e-mail in my pocket until I had a phone with a full keyboard and a decent screen.

Re:US, welcome to the world (-1, Flamebait)

baldass_newbie (136609) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982724)

I simply meant that it is not like America where there are different phone connection protocols with different levels of reception depending on where you are, there is just one across the whole of Europe.

Europe's like what...the size of Texas? If we had that many folks living in such a small area, then different types of coverage wouldn't be an issue.
But for that vast amounts of rural area the US has, CDMA makes providing service that much easier. Even where I live, wedged between two metro areas 50 miles in each direction, CDMA is much more reliable than any of the other protocols.
Your comment displays your ignorance of America (much like most American's ignorance of Europe is so frequently pointed out.) The country is freaking HUGE.

Re:US, welcome to the world (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982912)

The landmass of Europe is approximately 10,180,000 square km [wikipedia.org] , the landmass of the United States is approximately 9,826,630 square km [wikipedia.org] .

Your comment displays your ignorance of Europe (much like you pointed out European's ignorance of the United States). Europe is freaking HUGE.

Re:US, welcome to the world (4, Informative)

TamCaP (900777) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982918)

Erm... Europe is larger than the USA... Little list
  • Europe: 10,180,000 km^2 (3,930,000 sq mi)
  • European Union: 4,324,782 km^2 (1,669,807 sq mi)
  • Texas: 678,051 km^2 (261,797 sq mi)
  • USofA: 9,826,630 km^2 (3,794,066 sq mi)
All data after Wikipedia. Densities differ - true, but still, don't use such exaggerations to support your argument (which is not bad in itself).

Re:US, welcome to the world (5, Funny)

4D6963 (933028) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982986)

Europe's like what...the size of Texas? [...] Your comment displays your ignorance of America (much like most American's ignorance of Europe is so frequently pointed out.) The country is freaking HUGE.

Yes, that's right, we ignore a lot about America, mostly the fact that it's huge, that and the fact that you guys are "number 1". You should repeat it more often, we're still not hearing it. Oh and I'm pretty sure Europe is only a third the size of Texas ;-).

Re:US, welcome to the world (5, Informative)

Kinthelt (96845) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982988)

Europe's like what...the size of Texas?
Apparently, Europe [wikipedia.org] covers an area of 10,180,000 km^2, while Texas [wikipedia.org] has a mere 678,050 km^2.

Your comment displays your ignorance of America (much like most American's ignorance of Europe is so frequently pointed out.)
What's the definition of irony again?

Wha??? (1)

LKM (227954) | more than 6 years ago | (#21983020)

Europe's like what...the size of Texas? (...) Your comment displays your ignorance of America (much like most American's ignorance of Europe is so frequently pointed out.) The country is freaking HUGE.

Is this supposed to be a joke, or are you really that dumb?

Re:US, welcome to the world (4, Insightful)

Pantero Blanco (792776) | more than 6 years ago | (#21983034)

Europe's like what...the size of Texas? If we had that many folks living in such a small area, then different types of coverage wouldn't be an issue.
But for that vast amounts of rural area the US has, CDMA makes providing service that much easier. Even where I live, wedged between two metro areas 50 miles in each direction, CDMA is much more reliable than any of the other protocols.
Your comment displays your ignorance of America (much like most American's ignorance of Europe is so frequently pointed out.) The country is freaking HUGE.

Spain is about the size of Texas. Europe is a bit bigger than US...4 million square miles versus 3.5-3.7 million.

Your point that the large rural areas in the US affect telcommunications there is valid, but your first comment was nuts.

Re:US, welcome to the world (0, Redundant)

mazevedo (117804) | more than 6 years ago | (#21983126)

I think the ignorant here is you!

Europe's area: 10,180,000 km (3,930,000 sq mi)

Density: 70/km (181/sq mi)

Population: 710,000,000


USA's area: 9,826,630 km (3,794,066 sq mi )

Density: 31/km (80/sq mi)

Population: 303,151,000


You figured it all wrong: in Europe you need MORE antennae installed to cover all the population that is widely scattered. You don't have VERY LARGE areas uninhabited in Europe. And because you have more people, it makes sense to have a standard across different countries.

Re:US, welcome to the world (3, Informative)

Atti K. (1169503) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982292)

By GSM he probably meant GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS. But there also exceptions, like them. [www.zapp.ro] They offer CDMA in the ex-NMT 450 MHz band. The downside, limited set of phones, and you can leave your phone at home if you travel outside the country (and take your GSM with you)... kinda like in the US :)

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982498)

Not sure if we have EDGE tho.
Yes, EDGE is AT&T's 2.5G network. Slower broadband speed than Sprint & T-Mobile's EVDO-based network [cnet.com] .

Re:US, welcome to the world (3, Informative)

Scyber (539694) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982634)

Not sure if we have EDGE tho.
Yes, EDGE is AT&T's 2.5G network. Slower broadband speed than Sprint & T-Mobile's EVDO-based network [cnet.com] .
Which in turn is slower than AT&T's HSPDA 3G network.

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982660)

True, but iPhone, as configured out of the box, only works on EDGE.

SIM, Europe and the world (3, Informative)

LKM (227954) | more than 6 years ago | (#21983086)

I live in Switzerland. Every phone I've ever bought (from different carriers) has been sim-unlocked. I think it's possible to get SIM-locked phones, but you can easily get them unlocked. When I leave the country for any significant amount of time (which is often, as you can't spit in Switzerland without hitting three other countries), I buy a local pre-paid SIM card. A few months ago, I went to Cuba for two weeks, and my Swisscom SIM card actually worked, including Internet access (which is kind of a joke - my phone had faster Internet than the local, foreigners-only Internet cafés).

Not quite (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982210)

many phones are "locked" to a particular network. Officially you need to pay the network to unlock the phone to use it on another network. Unofficially there are plenty of people who will "unlock" your phone for a much smaller fee (£15 compared to £100).

Re:Not quite (1)

alx5000 (896642) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982306)

That depends. It's not really that you are tied to a particular network; in Spain, you are forbidden to use the rest of the Spanish networks, that is, your phone won't connect to them, or accept any of their sims.

It's true that you can get your phone unlocked for a small fee, but at least here, after the initial 18 months of the contract have passed, you can ask your provider to unlock it, or to tell you how to do it, but at no cost whatsoever.

Anecdotically, a friend of mine who lives in Ireland told me that any time he buys a new phone from his carrier, he asks them to unlock it as soon as they can (he has a Spanish vodafone sim card that he uses when he's here), and they do it for him (good credit history, etc.).

Re:Not quite (1)

tristian_was_here (865394) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982458)

Thats all down to the tarif, most require you to bide by the contract for a minimum time (which you can still cancel in the UK by the bank) basically after that minimum time has passed you "legally" own the phone. In the UK you can walk into a shop and buy a phone without a contract and buy credit from the shop.

Re:US, welcome to the world (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982212)

The UK actually still has a number of handsets per operator that are 'locked' to that network. Whilst it's true that you can get these phones unlocked to take any SIM, it's not free to do so and it's often available from some pretty dodgy looking places.

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982320)

if can be free if you search the internet for the software and do it yourself.

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

Tony Hoyle (11698) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982948)

It's not always free (depends on how long you've been a customer) but it's quite cheap. My N95 cost £15 for the carrier to unlock.

Not sure what you mean by 'dodgy'. It's absolutely standard for a phone shop to unlock phones (of course the ones tied to carriers will only unlock their own).

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

OffTheLip (636691) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982232)

GSM is a perfect solution when I travel outside the US. I carry an unlocked GSM phone and my first stop in country is for a SIM chips. To date I've used my GSM phone all over Europe as well as the Caribbean. I'm ready for Verizon to make the change to GSM.

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

Marcion (876801) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982358)

Exactly. All we need now is for the EU to totally abolish roaming charges so you will only need one SIM card for the whole of Europe.

Re:US, welcome to the world (2, Insightful)

rucs_hack (784150) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982420)

if they did that a lot of the mobile phone networks would go out of business pretty fast. They over estimated the extent to which they could fool people into believing that the mobile phone was a device that needs replacing every few months, now all they have is phone charges and huge debts to service from license purchases.

Mobiles are all but commoditised now. Face it, all phones are pretty much identical. If this were not the case, then why are the major selling points not phone features at all? Cameras mp3 players and external looks? I'm amazed people are fooled into replacing their phones at all, but I know people who avidly follow this faked technology advancement and replace their phones each time something 'new' appears.

Apple have screwed that anyway, by going a whole new way and removing the analogue keyboard completely. That was about the only thing left they could be different over.

Not that I want to buy an iphone. 8Gb? You've got to be kidding, same for the ipod touch, screw that, I want my 160Gb.

Roaming charges are a pointless rip-off (2, Insightful)

Marcion (876801) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982480)

if they did that a lot of the mobile phone networks would go out of business pretty fast

If that is the case then good. They will be replaced by better ones.

I think it is ridiculous that if you go between two EU countries, you either have to swap out the SIM cards every time you cross a border (meaning different phone number) or pay to receive a call. Paying to receive calls is stupid.

However, I think if roaming charges where abolished completely then overall they would make more money, as people would make more phone calls. When I am at home I make several mobile calls a day, when outside of my own country I do not make any at the moment because of the receiving calls problem.
 

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

Don_dumb (927108) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982620)

I'm amazed people are fooled into replacing their phones at all
In Britain, most people replace their phones when they get a new contract, as the cost of the phone is absorbed within the contract itself. A new contract every 12/18 months and a new phone at the same time. The rest of us have pay-as-you-go phones and natural wear and tear (my butterfingers) means a replacement every couple of years.
I am amazed that people are willing to buy an iPhone at full price AND a pay for an expensive 2 year contract. No wonder Apple is making hatloads they have made people pay twice.

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

Tony Hoyle (11698) | more than 6 years ago | (#21983002)

It's often far cheaper to change phone/provider every 12 months than stay with your current one anyway. The 'new customer' deals are pretty good.

If you're a heavy user of course you can get great deals sticking with your current provider.. I know a guy that got a free N95 and zero line rental. Then again he makes about £2000/month in phone calls so they didn't really want to lose him..

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

LKM (227954) | more than 6 years ago | (#21983146)

I am amazed that people are willing to buy an iPhone at full price AND a pay for an expensive 2 year contract. No wonder Apple is making hatloads they have made people pay twice.

Well, it's either that or not have an iPhone, and since the iPhone is, for a lot of people, so obviously superior to any other cell phone, it's worth its price.

I live in Europe and I did buy a US iPhone, and interestingly, it's the cheapest phone I've ever owned. Despite of them being subsidized, I paid more for my previous cell phones (which include a P800, a Treo 650 and a P990i).

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

moogs (1003361) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982360)

I've never heard of phones locked into a particular carrier until I got to the US. It's ridiculous.

Re:US, welcome to the world (1)

heelrod (124784) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982674)

Yea we do that here too dumbass! Ya'll aint that smert anymores

the iphone is horrible (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982156)

Its bad it wont effect verizon.

Re:the iphone is horrible (3, Interesting)

mlts (1038732) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982196)

Verizon announced that it plans to go GSM in the future, and if they completely phase out CDMA, pretty much only Sprint/Nextel would be the only CDMA provider in the US.

I'm not sure how serious Verizon is about this, although I do know that both AT&T and T-Mobile cross-license their towers, so it doesn't matter what brand of GSM tower is near someone. If Verizon also cross licenses, it wouldn't mean a big expenditure outlay on their part at first (although they would have to build towers to hold up their part of the deal, most likely.)

Maybe this is good -- if the US goes completely GSM, it might allow providers to bring 3G as a standard (instead of EDGE), and perhaps Super3G/4G soon after, but who knows.

Re:the iphone is horrible (1)

NickCatal (865805) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982322)

Verizon announced that it plans to go GSM in the future, and if they completely phase out CDMA, pretty much only Sprint/Nextel would be the only CDMA provider in the US.


Link?

Verizon future GSM (3, Informative)

ZepFloyd (993131) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982330)

Close, but not entirely true. Verzion has agreed to use the GSM LTE standard for it's 4G implementations, not 3G, so it doesn't appear they would be running to cross license anything. They are still committed to CDMA EV-DO for 3G. http://news.vzw.com/news/2007/11/pr2007-11-29.html [vzw.com]

Re:the iphone is horrible (1)

jdrew77 (1058530) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982592)

Verizon announced that their 4G technology is going to be LTE. LTE is int he GSM roadmap. So yes, they are going GSM. Its not going to be available for a few years however...

Re:the iphone is horrible (1)

tgd (2822) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982654)

ATT talks about cross licensing towers, but I'm not sure I buy that. I have no signal on my iPhone sitting at my desk, but I can see six t-mobile cells using FieldTest (the strongest at -87dbi) -- neither of which my phone will use. I have the same problem at my house -- zero to one bar on an ATT tower, 4-5 on a t-mobile. Phone was unusable until I bought a signal booster for the house.

Slashdot and headlines... (0, Troll)

comm2k (961394) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982158)

iPhone Forcing Open Wireless Networks? No.

Re:Slashdot and headlines... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982284)

What does it even mean? Maybe I should RTF but at a glance, it looks like if I buy an iphone it will crack the encryption on all the wifi networks in range?

née? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982166)

I didn't know French was allowed in summaries.

Very american-centric article (3, Insightful)

arivanov (12034) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982220)

Carriers are learning that the right phone even a pricey one can win customers and bring in revenue - they have known it for a long time. What they have been missing that a POS designed and built by HTC which crashes every time you change a cell is not the right phone despite all the marketing push behind it. Marketing reality distortion cannot compensate for product being crap (which is what the ROKR fiasco proves nicely as well).

Similarly, Nokia has been playing this game all along on this side of the pond though I have to admit - it has never ever been so sadistic in its relationship with the carriers. As far as commercials - jobs is jobs nothing more to be said to this regard. So any changes to this regard in the market are American specific.

Europe has been there, seen it. This also probably explains its lukewarm reception over here. There are plenty of competing devices. They are not as good, but they do the job nicely and most of them are not totally operator bastardized (unless you go for Voda UK or Orange). For example I recently got a new Nokia E65 on O2. It took 3-4 presses of a button to tell the O2 customisation to go fish. 10 minutes later it was running VOIP calls on my home wireless networks, browsing the web and reading emails off my imap server. It may not be as shiny as an iphone, but it does all the jobs it does as well as VOIP and does it well.

Re:Very american-centric article (-1, Troll)

Luscious868 (679143) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982568)

It's a very American centric article? No shit. Slashdot is an American site.

Re:Very american-centric article (4, Insightful)

rbanffy (584143) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982864)

I think this internet thing mostly did away with that other thing of national borders and geography.

In the end, every article and every discussion here and on every other discussion-centric site has different demographics.

I use Ubuntu and I don't think of it as American, European or African.

For the rest of the world, it's interesting to note how the stranglehold of the telcos (due to probably insuficient consumer-protection laws) has held the US back in respect to mobile telephony.

Re:Very american-centric article (1)

dunkelfalke (91624) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982938)

actually i like those pda phones designed and built by htc.

Re:Very american-centric article (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21983040)

It is an Apple centric article. I do not think the facts in the article states lead to the conclusion the title of "The Untold Story: How the iPhone Blew Up the Wireless Industry" really suggests. Well, I guess it may have mixed up the industry between the carriers and the phone makers but the consumers are not seeing anything different than already had.

Handsets were viewed largely as cheap, disposable lures, massively subsidized to snare subscribers and lock them into using the carriers' proprietary services. But the iPhone upsets that balance of power. Carriers are learning that the right phone -- even a pricey one -- can win customers and bring in revenue.

Okay, with the iPhone, we have a not so cheap, not really subsidized phone that lock them into using the carriers' proprietary services. Wow, what a jolt wireless industry. The iPhone is still currently "locked" down from a carrier AND from a third party application standpoint. What exactly is the difference? The statement quoted above could be summed up with "Consumers want more phone options" as the proprietary, lock-in, and long contracts part of buying a phone are still included with the iPhone. I would bet consumers would also like those minor annoyances removed from the phone owning process as well! That would a situation that would "Blow up the Wireless Industry".

AT&T, Cingular, T-Mobile (5, Informative)

jhcarnelian (889433) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982248)

Those carries have been open for a long time: I've been using unlocked GSM phones on them for years. The iPhone is a big step backwards: it's carrier-locked and non-programmable. Far from moving the industry forward, Apple has been taking it backwards.

If you want a nice phone, get an unlocked Nokia N95-3; you get 3G speeds, a 5Mpixel camera, stereo speakers, GPS (works with Google maps), a Safari web browser, and lots more. You aren't locked into a contract or carrier, and you can put in a different SIM card when you travel.

Shhhhh (0, Offtopic)

dreamchaser (49529) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982294)

Don't introduce actual facts about Apple on Slashdot. You'll be moderated into oblivion by the koolaid drinkers.

Here we go again. (0, Redundant)

Lethyos (408045) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982518)

Let me know how your web browser works with popups, invalid HTML, bad CSS, and barely-functional JavaScript when compared to WebKit, never mind the ever-helpful resolution-independent interface on Mobile Safari.

Re:AT&T, Cingular, T-Mobile (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982860)

I've also been using GSM in the US since I got my first mobile 11 years ago, and I think all but my very first handset (out of the 5 I have used) were multi-band "world phones" which I unlocked and used internationally. The first one was retired for being obsolete and clunky before I had ever considered the idea of carrying a phone abroad.

I wonder why there isn't the same indignation over CDMA in S. Korea or Japan as there is for it in the US here on slashdot... I've teased my friends who use the CDMA phones here, but only because I think they are suckers for using contract-locked phones and abusive service terms. I tease them just the same for switching to the iPhone now, with its dubious features and unlocking/upgrade treadmill. People forget that nationwide roaming in the US is comparable to Europe-wide roaming on GSM, and everyone has that here. Many people never bother to cross the ocean in either direction.

I suspect my next phone will be Linux based and I'll probably find out how to hack it, just on principle as I don't really use most phone features extensively except voice calling, SMS, and data modem capabilities (GPRS/EDGE etc. internet access for an attached laptop).

is it just me? (5, Funny)

ed.han (444783) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982252)

...or with the spate of news articles about how revolutionary and paradigm-changing the iphone is, is anyone else expecting to start seeing an "iphone = chuck norris" meme?

"the iphone is so cool, the ISO is creating a new temperature scale based around it."

"the iphone is so powerful, it can cure cancer...once unlocked."

"the iphone is so versatile, it can not just play music, be a phone and browse the web, but imagine a beowulf cluster of them!"

is it just me? i mean, i think the iphone is pretty darned cool, myself, and i don't even own one. but there's been a great deal of fawning over it. not that apple doesn't deserve accolades for it, but jeez guys...haven't we collectively crossed the threshold of justifiable praise into fanboyism?

ed

Re:is it just me? (1)

gbridge (746125) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982310)

is it just me?
Yes.

Re:is it just me? (1)

dreamchaser (49529) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982332)

Yes.

No.

I'd like to see this one (1)

Atti K. (1169503) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982338)

"the iphone is so nice, but does it run Linux?"

But the problem is (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21983092)

that everybody who attempts to unlock the ipod keeps getting punched by this little arm that appears from under the display.

Android FTW! (5, Interesting)

multiview (124831) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982258)

1. The headline is horrible. iPhone didn't contribute to wireless networks that are open by some means.

2. iPhone won't open the market. Android will. Reason: Android is fully customizable. Soon or later Skype[1] or any other VOIP/instant messenging app will be available. Data traffic will become more important than regular POTS calls. Eventually one carrier might step out of line and get out of the entrenchment by offering reasonable data traffic packages. The game theory for this is a prisoners dilema, and we know that all participating players will lose at end. But that's just good for the customers. Technology will dictate it at the end, and it's Google Android that will take the lead here; not iPhone that is tied to carries by contracts.

[1]Skype itself is a total horrible vendor lockin, but hopefully the protocol gets reverse engineered one day and we will all enjoy open clients. Everyone that uses a multi-protocol client with MSN/ICQ/AIM/JABBER knows that suddenly a single protocol becomes quite easy to replace and hence its power to dictate the rules (as it so for skype at the moment) vanishes.
 

OpenMoko FTW! (2, Interesting)

Marcion (876801) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982438)

Android is fully customizable

Are you sure about that? The OpenMoko is fully customisable because it is a fairly standard embedded version of Linux and you are the root user. I'm not sure Android is like that. As far as I know (which is not far), you can customise one layer i.e. what runs inside the Java sandbox but that's it. For me that is no more interesting than Symbian (i.e. not interesting at all really).

I'm waiting for the OpenMoko

Re:Android FTW! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982582)

[1]Skype itself is a total horrible vendor lockin, but hopefully the protocol gets reverse engineered one day and we will all enjoy open clients.
If this happens, what's to stop Skype from switching the protocol or modifying the encryption scheme. Also I wonder if they could use DMCA/EUCD to kill reverse-engineering it because of the encryption. I mean it would stop anyone from wiretapping the link (which is copying).

All of this is totally pointless anyway. Use SIP or Jabber/Jingle instead. Proprietary protocols for simple stuff like this is ridiculous and kills innovation when it comes to embedded system interoperability, since support would require a proprietary piece of software.

Re:Android FTW! (2, Insightful)

Luscious868 (679143) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982624)

Android is nothing more than a buzzword at this point. Wake me up when it's actually on the market and we'll compare it to the iPhone and see which is better.

Re:Android FTW! (1)

ConanG (699649) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982792)

The summary may be bad, but the article is pretty accurate. The Wired article is basically saying that some of the latest developments in the cell industry are due to the iPhone. They are saying that Android wouldn't exist without the iPhone to break the carrier death grip. Yes, Android may get it done, but not without the iPhone laying the groundwork for it. The iPhone has fundamentally changed the way the carriers look at their business. They see that they can make money off of something like Android now. Before the iPhone, there wasn't a snowball's chance of that happening.

Re:Android FTW! (3, Informative)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982886)

I don't even see why people are using skype...
As you point out, it's a horrible lock-in protocol, and is tied to a single service for relaying calls to regular phones, a service which isn't very competitively priced.
Personally i use SIP, i have accounts with several providers for outbound calls and i switch whenever a better deal comes along, the reason i have multiple accounts is both for redundancy and because different suppliers offer different rates to different places. I also run my own asterisk pbx, and connect to it using multiple hardware voip phones (cisco 7960s, nokia n95, and a few cheap brandless ones) and have it connected to a physical elephone line.
I wouldn't have any of this flexibility if i was locked in to the skype protocol.

Its not a phone lock, its a brand lock (1)

joeld.uk (1145205) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982260)

The lock-in to a particular network certainly isn't new, nor is limiting the phones connection to a single network, it is just alot more noticeable to consumer. If you missed on on the Nokia NXX as it was only available on a competing network, partly because you knew the NXX+1 would be available within months (In keeping with the fast pace of the mobile phone industry). Now, if you can't get the iPhone, you know you wont have it for several years. This is like Sony Ericsson limiting its phones to Verizon. This is what is mostly new. Its a low volume, high profit approach, sound familiar for Apple? Its not the features of functionality of the iPhone that the networks are opening up their networks for, they are simply trying to replicate another phone that people actually get excited about. Oh, and one more thing, the best trend that Apple has hopefully brought to the market is to not let the carrier bastardize its UI with logos and links to its online services.

Re:Its not a phone lock, its a brand lock (1)

Marcion (876801) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982520)

Oh, and one more thing, the best trend that Apple has hopefully brought to the market is to not let the carrier bastardize its UI with logos and links to its online services.

While I think the iPhone sucks giant balls, I have to agree with you on this point. Not letting the carrier cripple the phone will hopefully catch on.

Re:Its not a phone lock, its a brand lock (1)

Tony Hoyle (11698) | more than 6 years ago | (#21983082)

Anyone can un-cripple a phone just by updating it. Sometimes (depending on what the carrier has done) you have to fiddle with it a bit, but you can get a pristine phone quite easily. I hate carrier branding and *always* remove it from every phone I have.

Verizon and ATT/Cingular (1, Offtopic)

NeverVotedBush (1041088) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982274)

They were the ones that rolled right over for the Bush administration and handed over customer call records without a warrant.

Qwest refused the "request" and ended up losing various government contracts as punishment.

I dropped Verizon when this story broke and now use Qwest for all of my phone services.

+1: Bush Bashing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982720)

What does any of that have to do with this article?

I want my Newton replacement (1, Interesting)

WillAdams (45638) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982280)

When Jobs killed the Newton, he promised that having those engineers available for other products would create innovative and break-through portable computing devices --- all I've seen are iPods, admittedly nice (but traditional form-factor clamshell) laptops and the iPhone. From:
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/wireless/magazine/16-02/ff_iphone?currentPage=2 [wired.com]

>Apple's hardware engineers had spent about a year working on touchscreen technology for a tablet PC

Where is it?

I'd buy an iPhone today if only it allowed one to use a stylus for handwriting recognition and allowed one to draw and annotate documents, but would prefer something a bit larger, but not quite so large as the Axiotron ModBook, http://www.axiotron.com/index.php?id=modbook [axiotron.com] and ideally it would have a nice docking station option and media-oriented features allowing it to work as a remote control, portable music player while hidden away in a laptop bag, ebook reader &c.

I'm definitely getting a Wacom Cintiq 12WX for my next machine at home (and a 20WX at work) --- http://www.wacom.com/cintiq/index.cfm [wacom.com] --- but I need a replacement for the Fujitsu Stylistic which replaced my Newton (which replaced my NCR-3125).

William

Re:I want my Newton replacement (2, Informative)

pete-classic (75983) | more than 6 years ago | (#21983024)

Handwriting recognition is for the birds. Using a stylus sucks. I have had two Palm OS devices and an iPhone. Now, no one understands better than I that Graffiti sucks. Hard. But handwriting creates certain problems that can't be solved by any software. Lost styli. The need to always use two hands. Difficult editing. (How do you backspace?) Okay, maybe that last one has a software solution. But you see what I'm saying.

I've had my iPhone since release day, and it took me about two weeks to really get comfortable with the soft keyboard. I haven't taken any measurements, but I am quite sure that I can type accurately on it faster than I can write legibly with a pen and paper. And I can get by one handed.

On top of all that, multi-touch is awesome.

Maybe the iPhone isn't for you, but if you haven't gotten one in your hands and tried it out, do it. I couldn't go back to a traditional touch screen. And anyone who tries to foist a stylus on me is going to have to dig it out of his sinus.

-Peter

not the iphone, alone. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982300)

Verizon is losing customers primarily cuase of it's crappy service and crippled phones. If it weren't for the employer discount I got through my company, I'd dump them in a heart beat, but I've got a budget, right? Still doesn't keep me from lobbying the people repsonsible every chance I get to switch.

Hemorraging customers? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982316)

"Allegedly Verizon turned Jobs down without even listening to his pitch, a decision they may well regret now that they are hemorrhaging customers."
have a look at last quarter's results: http://www.rcrnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071103/SUB/71103002 [rcrnews.com] Quarterly results from Verizon Wireless and Sprint Nextel Corp. came as no surprise: Verizon Wireless did well and Sprint Nextel didn't. Although Verizon Wireless was outpaced in net customer additions by AT&T Mobility, the carrier added 1.8 million net retail customers during the third quarter, which was slightly offset by losses of about 115,000 customers from its wholesale business, leaving Verizon Wireless with 1.6 million net new subscribers. Verizon Wireless now has 63.7 million customers, 97% of whom are retail customers. The industry's No. 1 carrier, AT&T Mobility, counted 65.7 million customers at the end of the quarter. Verizon Wireless' total revenues were up 14.4% year-over-year to about $11.3 billion. Income for the business gained 21.6% on the same quarter a year ago at $978 million. that's not hemorraging customers! Quit editorializing when you don't know what you're talking about.

iPhone Owner here. (4, Interesting)

Jackie_Chan_Fan (730745) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982374)

I love how Apple has managed to sell the phone at their apple stores, and all you need to do is pick it up, plug it into itunes and fill out a form and you're all setup on at&t very easily.

The setup is a very nice experience. No need to go to some at&t store for anything. If you dont have an apple store, you can order from apple online, have it shipped to your house and you can turn on the at&t service yourself through itunes. Its just a nice way to do things.

The iphone is awesome, but its not everything it could or should be. Apple has created a great platform but they have fallen short in features. It looks as if Apple is going to continue to support the iPhone by adding more applications thanks to the upcoming SDK, and they will be adding new features to existing phones as well as future versions. The iPhone looks like a platform, rather than a phone.

Right now, the iphone is lacking a lot, but it does somethings extremely well. Whats interesting is how people are willing to look past the shortcomings just to have an iPhone. In my case, and in many others, we werent aware of the shortcomings. I mean come on, how can it not have cut and paste?

Apple isnt being aggressive enough in adding features that the iphone lacks. Copycat phones are showing up, they're stealing a lot of ideas from Apple, and they are adding more functionality faster than Apple is. Granted these copycat ui's arent as elaborate or graphical, but they a made by the known players in the cell industry... and they can move very fast.

Re:iPhone Owner here. (1)

YeeHaW_Jelte (451855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982646)

Pray tell me, what's so great about having to download an application that is almost totally unrelated to your phone to have to activate it? A process, moreover, that requires you to have a PC, an internet connections and an OS by either Microsoft or Apple. I'm not an american, but I can hardly imagine what other carriers put you through to activate your phone. Bureaucracy? Huge amounts of money? Torture? Hell? A look into the abyss?

You must be getting sick of the comparisons to Europe and the rest of the world, but we just buy a prepaid or a subscription, with OR without a phone, and activate it using said phone and a code.

Yes, it can be that simple.

Re:iPhone Owner here. (1, Interesting)

Jackie_Chan_Fan (730745) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982828)

"Pray tell me, what's so great about having to download an application that is almost totally unrelated to your phone to have to activate it?"

The application is related to your phone, it is how you put music and other things on the phone. Now i think Apple does need to improve iTunes a lot, but the application does relate to the phone. The phone is not just a telephone but an mobile media player as well.

You still do have the option of going to an AT&T store and activating it there as well.

It's just nice to buy the phone and go home and activate it. Its a very simple process that is far better than waiting in line at any store.

Re:iPhone Owner here. (1)

comm2k (961394) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982934)

It's just nice to buy the phone and go home and activate it. Its a very simple process that is far better than waiting in line at any store.
Yes! Since Apple stores NEVER have waiting lines! I guess I must be living in phantasy land - I buy some phone, insert the SIM and 'it just works'.

Re:iPhone Owner here. (3, Insightful)

YeeHaW_Jelte (451855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21983094)

Ok, I'm exagerating, but just because of the grudge I hold with Apple because of my iPod fiasco. Here how I think it would be in a perfect world:

You go to the store, pick up your iPhone, activate it in the store or outside, using the code in the package. You then call your family, friends whatever to tell them about this great piece of hardware you got.

Then you proceed home, and copy your music, films, whatever onto the phone USING WHATEVER FILEMANAGER YOUR OS COMES WITH!

Because, let's face it, this tie-in of iPhones and iPods to iTunes stinks. I want apples hardware not the dumb software and the idiotic restrictions (thanks RIAA) the place on the use of the hardware via their crippled software.

End of rant.

Re:iPhone Owner here. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982784)

I love how Apple has managed to sell the phone at their apple stores, and all you need to do is pick it up, plug it into itunes and fill out a form and you're all setup on at&t very easily.

I've ordered phones online and had them shipped to me already active and working. There was only a bit more information required then would be required for any online transaction. I did not have to activate it through computer software. Your review of how easy an iPhone is to activate compared to others does not seem to actually be based on any others or at least no more then a single other experience you may have had. The point is, you are saying how awesome and easy activating an iPhone can be when it can be just as easy with any phone.

Re:iPhone Owner here. (1)

comm2k (961394) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982844)

I love how Apple has managed to sell the phone at their apple stores, and all you need to do is pick it up, plug it into itunes and fill out a form and you're all setup on at&t very easily.
I love how I bought my phone and contract at an O2 shop 4 (!) years ago, simple inserted the SIM and thats it. No need for a PC no need to *activate* or whatever. And that phone wasn't even SIM-locked.

No need to go to some at&t store for anything.
Instead you go to an Apple Store - wow :|

If you dont have an apple store, you can order from apple online, have it shipped to your house and you can turn on the at&t service yourself through itunes. Its just a nice way to do things.
Replace apple and at&t with O2. Am I missing something? What is so special having to *activate* a phone with a computer that could work just fine without having to jump through such hoops?

Re:iPhone Owner here. (1)

Tony Hoyle (11698) | more than 6 years ago | (#21983120)

I bought my last 3 phones at the supermarket. They worked in the car on the way back.

How is the iphone easier than that?

Re:iPhone Owner here. (1)

Luscious868 (679143) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982914)

Apple isnt being aggressive enough in adding features that the iphone lacks. Copycat phones are showing up, they're stealing a lot of ideas from Apple, and they are adding more functionality faster than Apple is. Granted these copycat ui's arent as elaborate or graphical, but they a made by the known players in the cell industry... and they can move very fast.

I'll second that. I'd like to see Copy & Paste, MMS, SMS to more than one person, the ability to take video with the camera, and even though it can be annoying, it would be nice to have Flash (with he ability to turn it off if necessary) in Mobile Safari for those sites that do require it. It seems to me that all of this could be added via a software update, but so far nothing (although I've heard rumors that firmware v1.1.3 will have both Copy & Paste and SMS to more than one person).

I've been following iPhone news since it's been released, specifically news about hacking it and running third party apps and it seems to me that Apple really rushed to get the iPhone out the door before they could get things in proper order "under the hood". It's clear they've spent most of their time since it's release cleaning up the iPhone OS, locking it down so third party apps not created with the official SDK can't run and now on the SDK itself.

Once the SDK has been released I expect to see all of the features I mentioned in the first paragraph (with the possible exception of recording video with the camera since that might be a hardware issue) within the next couple of months or I'll be pretty disappointed. Especially if these features appear in iPhone v2.0, but are never back-ported to the first edition.

Verizon "hemorrhaging" customers? (5, Informative)

Coopjust (872796) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982394)

As much as I hate Verizon Wireless for crippling their phones, if Verizon had 62.1 million subscribers in June 2007 [news.com] and 63.7 subscribers as of January 8th, 2008 [reuters.com] , how can they be "hemorrhaging" customers?

AT&T may be clobbering them, adding new acquisitions to 67.3 million lines [foxbusiness.com] (from 63.7 in June 07), but Verizon has a turnover rate of less than 2% and they've increased the total # of subscribers since the iPhone release.

The fact that the iPhone shookup the wireless industry and forced others to innovate and improve is true, but Verizon isn't dying. They DO need to play catchup with AT&T though; AT&T is widening their lead.

Re:Verizon "hemorrhaging" customers? (-1, Troll)

YeeHaW_Jelte (451855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982526)

"Verizon "hemorrhaging" customers?"

Wishfull thinking on the part of the slashdot crew who can't believe Verizon turned down Saint Jobs and his holy relic the iPhone.

I'm sorry, I just can't believe all this apple hype going on here on slashdot, especially after I bought my first Apple product ever and it's been a huge fiasco ...

Apple is much worse that Microsoft regarding DRM and protecting the record industries twisted interests and the editors here are turning a blind eye to it. All the things I can't do with the nice hardware of this 160 gig iPod because of the DRM-restricted software make me sick and I just decided to sell the thing because it only irritates me.

Please kind people of slashdot, wake up to the fact that Apple is a company without ethics (as all corporations) and just because you want to be released from the Microsoft monopoly doesn't mean the Apple is the saviour!

End of rant. Please mod me down now. I'll make sure to block Apple articles from now on.

Re:Verizon "hemorrhaging" customers? (2, Informative)

timster (32400) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982708)

All the things I can't do with the nice hardware of this 160 gig iPod because of the DRM-restricted software

What? There is no DRM built into the iPod except that it can play FairPlay-encoded files, which is Apple's DRM system (and which Apple is working to phase out besides). Are you confused about how the device works? It does store music in a database-driven format, but that format is not DRM-encumbered and is well-supported by a variety of tools.

Re:Verizon "hemorrhaging" customers? (1, Insightful)

YeeHaW_Jelte (451855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982764)

Bullshit. The new 6th generation, of which my iPod is one, encrypts both the database index and the firmware. The database encryption was lousy, admittely, and thus hacked, but the encryption of the firmware is much better and thus alternatives like Rockbox or iPodLinux are not working on the 6th generation and the 2 and 3rd generation nano's and they have no plans supporting it, partly due to this encryption.

The encryption of the database is meant purely to force customers to use iTunes and to make alternative ways of putting music on and especially pulling music OFF your iPod impossible. If this isn't DRM enforcing, pray tell me what is.

Re:Verizon "hemorrhaging" customers? (3, Informative)

timster (32400) | more than 6 years ago | (#21983066)

It's not "encrypted", silly -- it has a checksum, whose purpose is just as likely to be integrity verification as anything else. It took other projects, what, two days to figure out?

How does a checksum make it harder to pull music off the device? The database is still in plaintext as always.

Re:Verizon "hemorrhaging" customers? (1)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982968)

What exactly would you like to do on your ipod that you can't do due to drm?

Monopolies (getting somewhat OT) (1)

Lonewolf666 (259450) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982972)

Please kind people of slashdot, wake up to the fact that Apple is a company without ethics (as all corporations) and just because you want to be released from the Microsoft monopoly doesn't mean the Apple is the saviour!

Most of us know that.
But if Apple can knock down Microsoft's market share a notch or two, it means they can attract more software vendors for their platforms, and ultimately more choice for customers. It is called "competition". So even without any noble motives, Apple could be the "saviour" in the desktop OS/application market. Of course, I'd like to see Linux as third, equally strong force there (it already is in the server world).

Things are somewhat different in the market for mobile music players. Here Apple is dominating and if anyone needs be cut down to size, it is Apple. But even so, I think iPod dominance is less of a problem than the almost-monopoly of Windows on the desktop/laptop.

Re:Verizon "hemorrhaging" customers? (1)

IcePop456 (575711) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982962)

Since many people have 2 year contracts, I think it is very difficult to make any conclusions about the iPhone's impact on Verizon. All this says is that people have not paid the early termination fee and jumped ship. It also does not say they will in the future.

Another Reason to Adore Apple! (1, Insightful)

curmudgeon99 (1040054) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982398)

I must say, as a guy who bought his first Mac in the 1980's, I am so proud of Apple. They have shown how finesse and high creativity can beat raw dollars any day. They're a model for the rest of us would-be entrepreneurs.

Re:Another Reason to Adore Apple! (1)

Firethorn (177587) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982970)

To bad that they picked a cellphone service and network that reduces the iPhone to a brick with no service in my area.

I have the choice between Verizon, Alltel, and SRT(the local phone company).

Ah well...

Of course, I'm unusual in that I'd love to have a basic phone with a huge battery and big antenna(I'm pretty far from the cell towers). Just include bluetooth so I can leave the phone somewhere where it gets good reception while I use a headset.

Nokia phones are open, not iphone (4, Insightful)

weave (48069) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982418)

I own a Nokia N95 *AND* an Iphone (using t-mobile and at&t respectively), so I think I can judge these fairly.

First, I love the iphone in so many ways. The user interface rocks, web is better than the Symbian one (although they both do real web pages, unlike Apple's claims to be first), and the iphone's email app is much, much faster than that crap on Symbian (I have an inbox of several thousand messages so that might be part of it, but the iphone handles it like a breeze, and quickly)

With that said, I really like how I can do what I want with my unlocked Nokia. I use gizmoproject to do VOIP on it, I can pop in a prepaid overseas SIM when I travel, I can even load putty on it for pete's sake. Bluetooth options are endless including tethering with a data plan.

iphone is crippled in many unforgiveable ways, like crappy bluetooth support (what, I can't send a photo over bluetooth or tether my laptop?), no MMS, lack of WPA enterprise WIFI support (horrible), email app "helpfully" scales down the pics for you to VGA, and on and on.

These are all software design issues, which makes it even more intolerable.

Hopefully Nokia learns some lessons and adapts its software and Apple addresses the shortcomings in a future software update. At least let me use the iphone at work on the wifi network there. Sigh...

Re:Nokia phones are open, not iphone (0, Redundant)

YeeHaW_Jelte (451855) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982922)

Cheers, well said. I've had exactly the same experience with my first Apple product ever, the iPod. The hardware is great but Apple forces you to use it's POS software.

Apple is even worse than microsoft, striving for not only a lockin on software but the combination of hardware and software.

hemorrhaging customers ? (1)

jdrew77 (1058530) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982546)

Not sure where this data came from because it is completely inaccurate. Verizon took a hit the Qtr that the iphone was released...(they took the smallet hit of any carrier). Now that the initial surge is over, they are back to catching up to Att as the biggest american Carrier. Their churn is lower, and their arpu is higher then AT&T's. In fact, the VZW Voyager was the most researched phone on the internet from the christmas season...

get over iphone shit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21982618)

Guys, get over this iphone shit... apple is just another very small player in the mobile market. People in Europe and Asia won't care a damn shit about iphone... In 2008, there will be a wave of new phones from other players with excellent user interface and apple iphone because of the company's (Jobs) perverted attitude will be dead and buried.

open phone vs market impact (3, Informative)

Tzinger (550448) | more than 6 years ago | (#21982734)

The thread about whose phone is open and whose is not has no effect on the point of the article. The impact of the iPhone was that the phone maker got to set the rules instead of the service provider. This is a major change in the behavior of the service provider.

Verizon, conversely, expects that everything you would do with your phone should include a network service function. They own services for pictures, video, music, even your calendar and address book. As a result, they have disabled many of the features provided by phone equipment providers. Furthermore, you cannot buy a phone from an equipment provider and then sign up for Verizon service. This is a really terrible situation for the customer and not likely to last once the market starts to gravitate to separate smart phones and configurable services.

Lastly, don't assume that GSM is the solution to all phone service problems. The sim card is a good idea so that phone service is portable. It is a difficult standard to adjust to higher data rates where CDMA is easier. I suspect the GSM folks will get it figured out, but the phone you have today might not be the one you need in a few years. The battle is not yet fully played.

mod 0p (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21983064)

as possible? How don't wa8t to feel Faster chip
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