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Gentoo in Crisis, Robbins Offers Solution

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 6 years ago | from the back-in-the-saddle-again dept.

Operating Systems 259

mrbadbar writes "Gentoo Linux founder Daniel Robbins says Gentoo's leadership is in crisis. 'the Gentoo Foundation's charter has been revoked for several weeks, which means that as of this moment the Gentoo Foundation no longer exists.' Robbins offers a solution: his return as President of the Gentoo Foundation. According to Robbins: 'If I return as President, I will preserve the not-for-profit aspect of Gentoo. Beyond this, you can expect everything to be very, very different than how things are today.'"

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The solution: (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012170)

Disallow future nigger-use of Gentoo. Do not accept nigger contributions, in the unlikely event that they manifest themselves.

Tourettes? (1)

killmofasta (460565) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012262)

Are you suffering from Tourettes? It is treatable? Can you have typing Tourettes?

Re:Tourettes? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012632)

Why would anyone want him as a president? What's wrong with Gentoo leadership? Nothing and everything. The idea of council is cool, but at least 50% of devels are plain fools. I'm not glad to say thins, but it is. What gives me the right to say it out loud? I use Gentoo for years now (since 2002 or 2003, can't remember), and I'm a mid level C/C++ programmer, so I can judge. President? Why? Microsoft worker as a president (you do know he left Gentoo so he could work for Microsoft, right?)? Thank you for kick staring such a good distro, but it's too big for you now, Daniel. Go back to Microsoft!

Re:Tourettes? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013018)

Line jumping Troll. They should have a -2 mod.

Re:Tourettes? (1)

nxsty (942984) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012882)

Actually you can. Just install the firefox tourettes extension. :) http://fffff.at/tourettes-machine [fffff.at]

Huh? (5, Funny)

jd (1658) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012174)

The emerge of the upgraded management package failed? Did you remember to set the right USE flags?

Re:Huh? (4, Funny)

Solra Bizna (716281) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012556)

Why were you compiling with MAKEOPTS="-j32768"? What did you really expect to happen?

-:sigma.SB

RIP The Gentoo Foundation (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012180)

you were powerless niggers in a world full of white men

Easy solution (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012188)

$ emerge leadership

His post said (5, Funny)

joeflies (529536) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012394)

that he wants an answer in 7 days. There's no way that your $emerge leadership package will compile and install by then.

Re:Easy solution (4, Funny)

Jessta (666101) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012766)

$sudo emerge -av leadership
password:

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild U ] vitural/leadership-3.0_rc2 [1.0_rc1] USE="developers minimal intelligent paludis -emerge -designers " 50 kB

Total: 1 package (1 upgrade), Size of downloads: 50 kB

Would you like to merge these packages? [Yes/No]
Y

Re:Easy solution (2, Funny)

derago (582951) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013540)

gentoo # emerge leadership
Calculating world dependencies ...done!

!!! Error: the dev-libs/leadership package conflicts with another package.
!!! both can't be installed on the same system together.
!!! Please use 'emerge --pretend' to determine blockers. ...

[blocks B ] dev-libs/trustees (is blocking dev-libs/leadership-1.3.2)
[blocks B ] dev-libs/nocharter (is blocking dev-libs/leadership-1.3.2)

G.E.N.T.O.O. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012198)

The project to Give Each Nigger Two Orphaned Ogres. Brought to you by Felicia Gygax.

Things will be different how exactly? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012202)

As far as a nigger's concerned, nothing's changed because as everyone knows, NIGGERS PREFER SLACKWARE.

Robbins has my respect. (5, Insightful)

GeneralEmergency (240687) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012212)

Not too many folks could pen such an offer with out tossing in the phrase "tail between your legs" somewhere.

Re:Robbins has my respect. (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012462)

I was pretty impressed when he actually helped out a guy who had a colo at our datacenter. Nobody with any fame or cred, just some guy who was having gentoo problems that nobody in the community seemed able or interested in helping him out with. Most of us seem to get burned out of helping even relatives pretty early in the game, so doing support for people on the street out of the goodness of your heart is pretty amazing. Even if it is your distro.

Re:Robbins has my respect. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012922)

He used to run Linux support for IBM. Still Google-able, his answers got me going at work. Smart dude.

Best of luck to Daniel Robbins & co. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012214)

Tough news, but I trust in Mr. Robbins' ability to get things finished, and I believe in his talent of organization and nigger-slapping, the latter ability of which he was considered an Olympic-calibre competitor.

Gentoo will survive. The community will see to that.

Thanks for all you've given us, Dan.

What is the crisis? (3, Interesting)

Kristoph (242780) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012216)

I RTFA but I have no idea what the problem actually is that he is going to solve. Could someone explain?

Re:What is the crisis? (2, Interesting)

raptor386 (1212810) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012330)

I believe the issue is that the legal entity no longer exists, so he's going to step up, renew the charter, and get Gentoo Foundation recognized as a legal non-profit organization again. Though I understand that this is the issue, I don't understand WHY it's an issue. Hopefully someone else can clarify further.

Re:What is the crisis? (5, Informative)

foobsr (693224) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012702)

Hopefully someone else can clarify further.

The same blog can.

"I am still upset that the Foundation has not been run properly over the last three years, and that many trustees apparently decided to take extended vacations from the project shortly after becoming a trustee, leaving the work to be done by very few - and often a single individual, which defeats the whole purpose of having multiple trustees to do the work rather than a single leader. I am also, like many of you, not happy at all with the way Gentoo has been going from a development and community perspective."

You might also infer what was wrong by looking at what would be different.

CC.

Re:What is the crisis? (1, Informative)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012338)

It looks to be a bunch of internal politics. There's a lot of information that is missing, like why the charter was revoked. Another question is why this guy thinks that he's going to get this power if he's going to replace the people that need to approve him.

The basic information is apparently on a mailing list, which I don't feel like reading.

Re:What is the crisis? (5, Informative)

jmdc (1152611) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012362)

TFA refers to a previous blog entry, which mostly explains things. To summarize: the people who are supposed to be in charge have mostly resigned or are MIA. The remaining leadership isn't doing things like updating the website, etc - the weekly newsletter hasn't been published in months. The real crises is that they didn't file routine paperwork with the state, which puts the legal status of the gentoo foundation in jeopardy. No one explained why to the community, or said much of anything. So, he's going to get the legal matters cleared up and find new people to be in charge.

Re:What is the crisis? (1)

rjames13 (1178191) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012906)

Why does the Gentoo community need these people? Can't they just sail along fine without them? Make their own websites and stuff if they need it?

What is so important about this Gentoo Foundation? What happens if it goes under?

Question regarding Gentoo (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012224)

Not to sound like an ingrate but I don't want to keep this distro installed if any nigs were involved in the project. At least with Ubuntu, they tell you right up front with their nigger-speak. Can someone clarify?

good! (-1, Flamebait)

kurt555gs (309278) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012234)

I never liked the condescending attitude of those Gentoo users that think compiling everything was always so superior to Yum or apt-get.

They are prolly made up of the survivors of the sinking Slackware bunch ( who are equally annoying ).

Of course Gentoo or Slackware or the like will work fine, but in these days of fast processors and cheap memory, why not just use a Debian based Linux like Ubuntu WITH a GUI, and let some one else compile the thing.

There, I feel better now.

       

Re:good! (5, Interesting)

Mantaar (1139339) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012314)

It's strange how people think Gentooers are into Gentoo for the '--fomg-optimize' thing...

I had to leave Gentoo a few weeks ago because my Laptop couldn't take the massive compiles anymore - my desks are all FreeBSD btw. What I enjoyed about Gentoo was the ports-like package manager and the ability to carefully choose your dependencies via USE-flags. Here I am, back on Debian, and I think it's actually faster... but I don't really care about speed since I exclusively use XMonad and the console - no need for speed improvements on a 1.6 GHz machine with that.

But what I hate is that I don't have overlays anymore. You could dynamically replace any part of your package repository with something you found on the net. Like the proaudio overlay. Or the Haskell overlay. With Debian, this is much harder, as you have to find someone on the Net that will offer his repo of binaries ... people are much less likely to offer that since writing an ebuild is easy, but compiling that stuff for different archs is actually not that easy.

For example, I still didn't find any place that offers a .deb of the new Firefox Beta 3. Anyone willing to point me to one?

The speed is only a minor advantage of Gentoo and manifests itself in the much shorter start up times and the ability to easily switch to baselayout2 or einit to even improve that one. But since the average uptime of my laptop is about 2-3 weeks, I don't really care if Debian takes 20 seconds longer to boot up.

Re:good! (2, Informative)

Jack Malmostoso (899729) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012894)

For example, I still didn't find any place that offers a .deb of the new Firefox Beta 3. Anyone willing to point me to one?

The best thing is that it's right on your computer, just a couple of commands away:

$ wget http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/3.0b2/linux-i686/en-US/firefox-3.0b2.tar.bz2
$ mkdir -p debian/DEBIAN
$ mkdir -p debian/opt
$ tar -xjvf firefox-3.0b2.tar.bz2 -c debian/opt
$ mv debian/opt/firefox debian/opt/firefox3
$ apt-cache show iceweasel > debian/DEBIAN/control
$ joe debian/DEBIAN/control
$ dpkg-deb --build debian
$ mv debian.deb firefox3_3.0+b2_i386.deb

Remember to modify the debian/DEBIAN/control file to look like it makes sense, pretty much like this

Package: firefox3
Priority: optional
Section: web
Maintainer: Yourname <Your@email.address>
Architecture: i386
Version: 3.0+b2
Depends: debianutils (>= 1.16), fontconfig, libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.20.0), libc6 (>= 2.7-1), libcairo2 (>= 1.4.0), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.4.0), libfreetype6 (>= 2.3.5), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.14.0), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.12.0), libhunspell-1.1-0 (>= 1.1.6-1), libjpeg62, libnspr4-0d (>= 1.8.0.10), libnss3-0d (>= 3.11.7), libpango1.0-0 (>= 1.18.3), libpng12-0 (>= 1.2.13-4), libstdc++6 (>= 4.2.1), libx11-6, libxft2 (>> 2.1.1), libxinerama1, libxp6, libxrender1, libxt6, procps, psmisc, zlib1g (>= 1:1.2.3.3.dfsg-1)
Suggests: iceweasel-gnome-support (= 2.0.0.11-1), latex-xft-fonts, libkrb53, mozplugger, xprint
Conflicts: firefox (<< 2.0+dfsg-1), mozilla-firefox (<< 1.5.dfsg-1)
Description: lightweight web browser based on Mozilla
Iceweasel is a redesign of the Mozilla browser component, similar to
Galeon, K-Meleon and Camino, but written using the XUL user interface
language and designed to be lightweight and cross-platform.
.
This browser is based on the Firefox source-code, with minor
modifications. Historically, this browser was previously known as
Firebird and Phoenix.
.
This package is built from the binaries downloaded here:
http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/3.0b2/linux-i686/en-US/firefox-3.0b2.tar.bz2

While it's not like downloading a .deb and installing it, it sure is damn faster than recompiling firefox.

Oh and yes, you could just untar firefox in /opt and make a symlink in /usr/local/bin, but you wanted a .deb.

Re:good! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013574)

Oh and yes, you could just untar firefox in /opt and make a symlink in /usr/local/bin, but you wanted a .deb.

I'm glad you say that, because this is not a .deb. It's just a tarball with a description file and an alternative extension, just like those generated by CheckInstall [falkotimme.com] .

Re:good! (4, Interesting)

segedunum (883035) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012380)

I never liked the condescending attitude of those Gentoo users that think compiling everything was always so superior to Yum or apt-get.
If you've ever had to hunt around for a package repository because your distribution does not provide, or no longer provides, updates for particular packages and you have no upgrade path - necessitating downloading the source and compiling yourself or completely upgrading your distribution to the latest and greatest - you'll know why the condescending attitude of binary repository developers that everything should be in a repository, and their derision of using source code as a solution, pisses a lot of people off. On top of this, try multiplying this up for different platforms,

When you have experienced this, come back and comment.

Re:good! (5, Insightful)

Dice (109560) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012480)

Gentoo is subject to the same problem in reverse - except it's far more annoying and time consuming.

This scenario has happened to me multiple times on production systems:

Updates get pushed out, glsa-check notifies you of some critical patch to openssl or whatever, you go to do the upgrade only to discover that the new version has a .so rev bump. Now you need to use revdep-rebuild to track down every package that links against openssl (i.e. anything important) and recompile them. If any of these packages are more than a minor revision or two behind what's currently in portage the only way to rebuild them is to pull the ebuild from /var/db/pkg and copy it into the portage tree manually, then rebuild the digest and hope to god that portage can track down all of the source files or that they're still sitting in /usr/portage/distfiles. In the meantime you'd better hope that you're either on a dev box (luxury!) or nobody sneezes, since everything that needs the package that was so bumped is now running off cached filesystem data.

It's a lot of fun.

Re:good! (2, Interesting)

grahammm (9083) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012680)

The alternative in that situation is to 'take the plunge' and upgrade all the dependent packages to the latest (presumably stable, as if you are running ~arch then they would likely not be behind) version in portage. As you are talking about production systems, it makes sense to have testing systems which are kept (reasonably) up-to-date so that you do not get (many) unpleasant surprises when updating the live production systems.

Re:good! (4, Insightful)

syzler (748241) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012384)

Of course Gentoo or Slackware or the like will work fine, but in these days of fast processors and cheap memory, why not just use a Debian based Linux like Ubuntu WITH a GUI, and let some one else compile the thing.

Slackware is package based, although I will admit that the packages do not perform checks for required packages. I only know one person that re-compiles Slackware by hand, but he is a bit eccentric. Most of us only compile packages when they are not included in the distro, when they are not compiled with the options we want, or when we re-compile the kernel.

  It seems odd to lump Slackware and Gentoo together since most of the people that I know who use Slackware are more server centric than desktop centric and prefer stable software that does not change. Most Gentoo users I know are desktop centric and want the latest greatest untested software. This is reflected in the different methodology of the two distros.

I would also like to point out that Slackware has been around longer than Debian and Slackware produces stable releases faster than one every two to three years. Although Debian is a decent distro, there are other decent distros as well. I could argue that a Torx screw is better than a roofing nail, but it really depends on the job at hand.

Re:good! (4, Informative)

MyDixieWrecked (548719) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012658)

As has been discussed before [playingwithwire.com] , Gentoo isn't an enterprise production OS... in fact, it's not totally ideal for even a single server in a small shop.

The thing about gentoo is that it gives you super-fine grained control over your packages. You want ldap support? want to not support jpeg, but to support png? do you want the package installed, but omit all the X11 bullshit? Or how about keeping a specific version of a package from upgrading when you upgrade your system? That's the power of gentoo's package management system.

Gentoo also offers insight into the innerworkings of the linux OS. You get to build your own kernel and pick EXACTLY what gets installed.

Since Gentoo is frequently on the bleeding edge, it's great for testing out new versions of applications. One of the downsides of CentOS that I've encountered was the fact that subversion isn't quite up to date, and it took several months before vim7 was in the yum repository. Of course, you could add new repositories to yum, or download an RPM specificly of what you want, but that sometimes involves waiting for someone to make the RPM or finding the repository that has what you need.

Another downside of Gentoo, especially in a production environment, is that since it's bleeding edge, many things in the system are changing and usually with a frequency that defies belief. I've been running Gentoo on my own two personal servers (hosting my websites and mysql and DNS and stuff) for nearly 5 years. The sheer number of times that I've booted the machine after doing an 'emerge -u world' and gotten "this configuration file's syntax is depricated, please use this new syntax instead" messages has been infuriating. Routine upgrades aren't routine. You can spend hours picking through config files and manually inspecting the diffs between versions. You don't want Gentoo on your server unless you enjoy spending a day doing an upgrade.

Gentoo is ideal for embedded projects and systems that aren't going to change. The OS lends itself well to projects such as DVRs and controller OSs for robotics. It's small and runs on a lot of different hardwares.

I'm always amazed at how much hate people have for gentoo because you have to build it yourself, but you don't hear people getting mad about the .tar.gz source files they download from sourceforge. You don't hear people bitching about Linux from scratch [linuxfromscratch.org] . The nice thing about Gentoo over LSF is that it automates a lot of the process for you and allows you to set up your system by itself, without the aide of another machine to get the system bootstrapped and initially configured. Sure, some gentoo users are cocky; but they're cocky in the same way that a guy who built his own Camarro acts around their buddy who just bought his new, shiny Saturn.

Gentoo is an exercise in academia. For a user new to Linux who wants to get a feel for the ins and outs and get used to the commandline really fast, gentoo is for them.

Re:good! (5, Informative)

borked (603290) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013246)

Gentoo isn't an enterprise production OS... in fact, it's not totally ideal for even a single server in a small shop.

I'm sorry, but that is total crap. I have been using Gentoo on production servers which I *do* keep current using stable (not bleeding-edge) packages. This is a large shop with many servers. I have never looked back since switching to Gentoo. Everyone who moans about emerges failing and having to run revdep-rebuild often must be doing something wrong. I've had to run revdep-rebuild once when I upgraded libexpat. So what? It took like 2 minutes.

Don't make sweeping statements if you don't know what you are doing. I run Gentoo on my servers and I run Gentoo on my personal desktop and and laptop and have *NO* problems with it. The next time you feel like bashing it, try it first and this time RTFM. Sheesh....

Re:good! (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013366)

Holy Moley!
Gentoo users are cocky in the same way that a guy who built his pedal powered Yugo acts around a buddy who bought a brand new Mercedes. Like people who ride hand built recumbent bikes or use mouseless user interfaces but also make a point of pointing out to everyone around them how that little piece of self-inflicted martyrdom makes them better than everybody else in a way not completely apparent to mere mortals.

Want to learn the command line? Get Unix (any flavour that floats yer boat)

There is nothing wrong with using Gentoo.. Just dont become a Gentoo User.

Re:good! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013538)

So dumb an answer it is, young padawan.
Learned from Debian then Gentoo, tried FreeBSD, used Solaris 10 for a full year, having a MacBook Pro running Mac OS X as my laptop => my server and my Desktop PC are running Gentoo.
If you RTFM, less problems than Ubuntu or even Debian. FreeBSD is also good but not for a Desktop.

Trouble (4, Insightful)

Frekko (749706) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012282)

I left gentoo some time ago due to severe problems. Let me sum up the most problematic ones: 1. Package system becoming VERY VERY slow because of the amount db size. 2. No sane way to upgrade properly without doing several rounds of breaking and fixing library dependencies 3. USE flags change all the time and often leave the apps crippled if you don't set it up "just" right (try PHP) 4. No automatic way to uninstall a package and have the system automatically remove the unused ones. 5. Very very slow upgrade cycle for major packages (KDE is a good example)

Re:Trouble (2, Informative)

Frekko (749706) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012304)

Let me add a few more:
6. You are forced to update VERY frequently. More than a month and you are CERTAIN to get issues while compiling.
7. Actually getting a usable desktop (with udev, automounting etc.) working is a hell of a lot of work

Re:Trouble (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012364)

7. Actually getting a usable desktop (with udev, automounting etc.) working is a hell of a lot of work

But at least all the copy-pasting of commands from the Gentoo forums makes you feel like you're learning a lot about how Linux works, right? ;o)

Re:Trouble (2, Insightful)

misleb (129952) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012636)

But at least all the copy-pasting of commands from the Gentoo forums makes you feel like you're learning a lot about how Linux works, right? ;o)


Ha! That's exactly what I thought when I first installed Gentoo from stage1. I was just following the howto, line for line. Great guide, but I can't really say I learned anything. If they're just going to provide step by step instructions to do everything anyway, why not just make the system easier to install/use in the first place?

Re:Trouble (2, Insightful)

Teppic_52 (982950) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012850)

If they're just going to provide step by step instructions to do everything anyway, why not just make the system easier to install/use in the first place?

You have clearly missed the point, it's not made to be 'difficult', that is just the way it is.
Plenty of people find the annoying idiosyncrasies of Gentoo worth the effort, their reasoning for this is their own and probably unique. If you gain no benefit use something else, if it's too hard for you use something else.

The only prerequisite for being able to install Gentoo instead of any other distro is the ability to read IMHO, and the 8 or so hours I spent 4 years ago installing my 1st system was well worth it as it's the same install I post from now.

Re:Trouble (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013044)

If you have nothing better to do for the next 485 hours of your life then by all means install Gentoo and knock yourself out! I see a bunch of asshole developers at work who spend half their time fixing their computers and trying to get Gentoo shit working instead of doing their fucking job. They are being paid to write code for the company (like I'm doing) not fucking around with their stupid Gentoo box all day long.

Re:Trouble (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013236)

Aww, poor baby gentool. Someone sounds like he's a widdle bit upset about the fact that the people behind Gentoo _themselves_ don't even give a shit about it any more.

Nice elitism too there, "oh, you only have to be literate to install Gentoo, all of the other distributions cater to morons and I'm above them obviously." Do everyone a favour and throw that four year install in the trash compactor rather than subject everyone to another four years of your bullshit, gentool.

Re:Trouble (1)

cinderblock (1102693) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013054)

This is what I did with my first Gentoo install. At first I had no idea what was going on. People that only follow the instructions never find out what's happening. But if you explore a little and try some different things while installing you figure it all out. I am not a professional IT guy (I host my home server as a hobby and service for friends and family) but I am confident in dealing with Linux (maybe just Gentoo for now) instead of only knowing the ins and outs of Windows (Isn't that MS wants?) My friend wanted to have his own small server and tried to get Debian to work... Dependency failures everywhere never got the system booting off the HD. I got him to try Gentoo and it worked the first time. At first I thought the compiling for speed was sweet and that I could brag about how efficient I was running but then I realized how little that mattered. It's really just the ease of use of Gentoo that makes it so powerful. (My first Linux box I ran from a RedHat CD I bought. What a disaster. Then again, I was still in middle school.)

Re:Trouble (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013330)

Sorry... I fail to understand how you simply copying and pasting is a failure on Gentoo's part for you not learning. If you go to college and copy off someone else's papers constantly, is it the college's fault you didn't get a good education?

Re:Trouble (1)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012568)

7. Actually getting a usable desktop (with udev, automounting etc.) working is a hell of a lot of work

  1. Download Sabayon.
  2. Boot from the LiveCD
  3. Run the installer if you like it.
  4. ???
  5. Profit

Re:Trouble (0, Flamebait)

vandan (151516) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013576)

6. You are forced to update VERY frequently. More than a month and you are CERTAIN to get issues while compiling.

Fucking bullshit dude. What the fuck are you talking about?

7. Actually getting a usable desktop (with udev, automounting etc.) working is a hell of a lot of work

Oh dear! Add the 'hal' and 'dbus' use flags and emerge a recent desktop. I have it working with NO manual configuration on almost 30 computers. What's wrong with you?

Seriously, if you want to use another distro, for whatever reason ( say, like you're not quite bright enough for a 'roll your own' distro ), then fine. But if you want to constructively add to a conversation, it helps to leave the bullshit in your head rather than have it ooze out your mouth or dial-up line.

Re:Trouble (1)

clayne (1006589) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012308)

emerge --sync && emerge -uDN world

Iteratively updates any newly synced ebuilds. Pretty much a no brainer and I think when you say "some time ago" you actually mean 2004.

Same here (4, Insightful)

theurge14 (820596) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012482)

I left Gentoo for FreeBSD due to these reasons and also due to waiting for certain packages for too long, then receiving buggy packages and finally, having the base config change several times in 6 months, mainly for apache2, php, etc. After spending a week with FreeBSD I don't think I'll be back to Gentoo for any reason.

Re:Same here (2, Interesting)

Zarhan (415465) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013222)

That's funny, I left FreeBSD for Gentoo for exactly the same reasons (this was around time of FreeBSD 5.0, so I probably had the worst possible FreeBSD experience). And Linux kernel had better hardware support, especially for laptops.

With FreeBSD, packages tended to break with almost every upgrade. With Gentoo, they still break after every upgrade, but at least there is revdep-rebuild to fix things. Portupgrade -L didn't really work...

Re:Trouble (4, Informative)

Noksagt (69097) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012490)

I don't use gentoo much anymore, but I did not too long ago.

1. Package system becoming VERY VERY slow because of the amount db size.
Robins claims there was also a bug in a recent portage version that slowed things down quite a bit.

4. No automatic way to uninstall a package and have the system automatically remove the unused ones.
Like:

$ emerge -C [packagename] && emerge --depclean
or do you mean something else?

5. Very very slow upgrade cycle for major packages (KDE is a good example)
Do you mean slow time to see updated ebuilds or that it takes a long time to compile? 3.58 is in the repos & there is a 4.0 overlay. Think there are even cvs ebuilds floating around.

Re:Trouble (1)

Frekko (749706) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012516)

5. Very very slow upgrade cycle for major packages (KDE is a good example)
Do you mean slow time to see updated ebuilds or that it takes a long time to compile? 3.58 is in the repos & there is a 4.0 overlay. Think there are even cvs ebuilds floating around.
Compiling is not the issue. That is very fast on modern computers. Also, the ebuilds often are in portage alright. The problem however is that it sometimes takes AGES for them to be marked stable. And yes, I know you can "fix" that. However, that usually leads to a cascade of masking issues which you again have to maintain etc.

Yeah, I know the --depclean trick. Unfortunately on my gentoo boxes it crashes (and has to be run several times) more often than I have time for.

Re:Trouble (1)

thr33way (1217978) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013582)

Okay, I fail to understand this - the developers feel that they aren't ready to be marked stable... so they aren't marked stable... you think they should be simply because.... what? upstream said its the stable release? that makes it less buggy? I don't understand all these people who constantly bitch about how "slow" things are to go "stable" but refuse to use anything but stable.... If a developer doesn't feel the package isn't ready to go stable... it doesn't go stable. Remember there are other configurations out there beside your own. If you want something "stable" go use a distro where everything is identical. They only need to work out the bugs for the exact settings that they specify that you get the priviledge of using.

gentoo (2, Informative)

johnm1019 (1070174) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012286)

I think gentoo has some incredible flexibility and it'd be a shame to see the project go by the wayside.

Re:gentoo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012630)

So much for being "open" :)

Because this worked so well last time (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012298)

So far it's looking good for him (5, Informative)

alveraan (945484) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012302)

There's a sticky post in the gentoo forums dealing with this. So far Daniel got a pretty positive response and frankly... as a user that has seen gentoo slowly falling apart over the past few years, I'm glad he's motivated to bring it back on track: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-644321.html [gentoo.org]

Should we care? (-1, Troll)

mustafap (452510) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012310)

So a distribution might die. Good. There are too many of them anyway.

Re:Should we care? (5, Insightful)

Nyago (784496) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012350)

Except that Gentoo happens to be one of the best. Maybe if one of the dozens of Red Hat clones using the same crappy RPM system died, nobody would miss it, but... Gentoo is too important. Even the non-Gentoo users I know rely on the Gentoo forums and wiki and documentation for help.

Re:Should we care? (2, Interesting)

Mantaar (1139339) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012354)

No. I think diversity in Linux is a Good Thing. There are hundreds of distros out there and that's really good to see, because they're all competing with each other, sharing their work with each other, forking one another and then merging back... If a distro dies, ten new ones spawn. That's very good, it contributes to a diversity which makes the Linux community an interesting place to live in.

And that 'but it confuses the newbies' argument just doesn't cut it anymore. For the complete boons, there's Ubuntu and probably SuSE. For everyone else, there's choice. I like choice. Right now I chose Debian, but that has changed in the past and will probably change in the future.

... as long as it's not RPM-based...

Re:Should we care? (0, Flamebait)

mustafap (452510) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012376)


I disagree. In fact your point:

> There are hundreds of distros out there

is the bit that I would be concerned with. While I can't draw on any formal evidence, it seems obvious that there comes a point where diluting the development effort across an ever increasing number of distributions becomes counter productive.

I'll shut up now because this is hardly a new idea, but thanks for the debate.

Re:Should we care? (2, Insightful)

muuh-gnu (894733) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012532)

> it seems obvious that there comes a point where diluting the development effort

This nonsense argument about dilluting effort gets repeated over and over. How exactly is it "obvious" that if I do something the way I think is the best, and work independently of the few "majors", I am dilluting the work of somebody else? Its called competition, and, as I least heard about it, it promotes diversity and is rather healthy for a ecosystem of any kind. There is no reason why there shouldnt be extreme diversity in the software landscape. You and your likes seem to suffer from some kind of software xenophobia. How exactly does some obscure source based distro you never heard of, make _you_ counterproductive? Using your reasoning Linux and the BSDs shouldnt even exist because theyre dilluting somebody else's windows based "development efforts".

Re:Should we care? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012802)

>Using your reasoning Linux and the BSDs shouldnt even exist because theyre dilluting somebody else's windows based "development efforts".

Classic Straw Man Argument there. Well done!

His point is that if you have 100 developers each working on a distro, that's worse than having 100 developers working on a single distro.

Anybody remember MSX?

Exactly.

Only upstream matters (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013078)

Except it isn't a good point at all because all the developers work together anyway regardless of which actual distribution they are working on.

1) Developers of the different distros contribute all their changes back to upstream. It doesn't matter how many developers are working on which distribution because the fixes all end up back in the same place.

2) Not only this but the different distributions are all going in different directions and have different goals. When something is successful they'll borrow from each other.

3) Ubuntu's goal is to bring Linux to the masses. Debian's goal is to provide a libre operating system. There is no way you could put both developers of those groups together on a single distribution because they both have different goals, but it doesn't matter because they both share from each other and fix problems.

4) A bug in Ubuntu could be a bug in Debian which could be a bug in every distribution. What is most important though is upstream which is where all the changes take place. You seem to have made the mistake of thinking that every distribution has to code all the upstream fixes themselves when what actually happens is that they pull down the latest updates on all these projects and spend a lot of their time making sure everything in the distribution works. If it doesn't file a bug upstream and get it fixed. Hey, now it works on other distributions too!

5) So as you can see everything is co-operated on, even proprietary programs. While reading the uvc webcam driver mailing list yesterday a developer filed a bug in the Skype beta bug tracker as he found a problem with Skype's webcam implementation and even offered to co-operate with them on how to fix it.

Re:Only upstream matters (0, Troll)

mustafap (452510) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013390)

>Except it isn't a good point at all because all the developers work together anyway

In some cases, yes. But is that true of the majority?

    Yes, if we are talking about drivers.

    Are KDE and Gnome working together?

My experience of managing an open source project which forked several ways was that the dilution of effort *did* affect other peoples work. 'Camps' appear, with work being duplicated simply because people would not take the effort to work together. You only have to look at how I was marked a 'troll' earlier on to see how difficult it is for some technical folk to consider a reasonably stated argument. Why debate something when you can fork, and ignore the people you disagree with.

Of course we need diversity. But do we need so much?

Re:Should we care? (1)

wanderingknight (1103573) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013400)

A sibling post already nailed it, but summarized, the point is as follows: It's fucking open. The regular secrecy rules of capitalist competition don't apply here; 90% of the time, changes are forced to be made open (obviously, depending on what license we're talking about). Any change in any distro is open for any other distro to grab and to use. And since every distro, in the bottom, is the same fucking system, only that delivered in a slightly different way, any progress of any distro is good for the whole community.

Re:Should we care? (1)

rjames13 (1178191) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012960)

I think he is trying to say that if everyone for instance worked on Gentoo then work on Gentoo would proceed much faster. This thinking is flawed for another reason than what you pointed out. Distro's have a purpose, it may not seem like it to someone who sees 300 distros and thinks OMG that is way too many. But each Distro was designed to solve a problem, different from another Distro. If everyone worked on say Gentoo then only the Gentoo problems would be solved not the others. For example there are some Distros that are for Desktop use, some for Servers, some for partitioning, some for system rescue, some for High Performance Computing. Having one Operating System to solve all problems is a flawed idea, much better to break up Operating Systems into the groups of problems they solve, which is exactly what has been done.

Re:Should we care? (1)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013350)

Besides that, the great thing about the current Linux landscape is that most of the distro "trees" out there come from one or two "roots" which means that most of the software developed from those roots can be spread to the trees without duplicating effort. I run several Debian packages on my Xandros 4 Pro, as I'm sure that many Ubuntu and other Debian based distro users do. But I wouldn't have Linux if I had to run Ubuntu(can't stand it) or Red Hat(REALLY can't stand it) just as I'm sure that Ubuntu and Red Hat users would hate it if they had to all switch to Xandros.


As I've said before, all we really need is an easy to use website with side-by-side comparisons of features along with a way to search and see which ones support your particular hardware "out of the box", so folks can find the right one to fit their needs without having to try dozens like I did.


For me, Xandros just works. For you, it might be Debian, Ubuntu, or one of the myriad of other flavors. We simply need a central place you can check out the different choices and find what is right for you without downloading every distro on the planet. But I think Vista is a good example of why choice is a good thing. With Linux you can choose to be cutting edge and have the bling, or like Xandros be rock solid and just work out of the box without the latest effects, or even build it yourself like Gentoo. Choice is one of the great things about OSS IMHO.

Re:Should we care? (5, Interesting)

jd (1658) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012416)

The problem lies not with the number of distributions but with what the different distributions offer. Needs, and therefore "ideal" solutions, tend to be specialized. General-purpose distributions have to be generalized. This means that general-purpose distributions will meet most of most needs, but can never really be ideal for any of them.

Gentoo's approach of configuring and compiling at point of install should - in theory - solve this problem. You can adjust what gets compiled with what options and can therefore tailor the solution exactly to what you need. This is great for some of the more complicated packages, where there are many optional components, some of which may be mutually exclusive. This is also great when you have packages that - if you compile in everything - the package become unwieldy and sluggish.

In practice, the maze of options and the staggering number of potential compiler flags for tuning things -- it's simply too complicated for the majority of users and even for a very large number of software engineers. A better solution, in my opinion, is to have users describe a basic distribution and the platform on which it is to run, and then have a central cluster use herustics to grind out a way to achieve it.

Personally, I'd do this by compiling a mini distro locally that used a very standard package manager and didn't invalidate assumptions by mainstream distributions also using that package manager. Then the user could use existing repositories to add the stuff that's not critical to them but they still want. Alternatively, the cluster could spit out all of the necessary scripts, databases and configuration files for a Gentoo-style distro to build that perfect foundation.

However, ultimately, I do believe this to be the area virtually all distros get it wrong. The foundation components are the most critical, but they are also the least reusable. Correct that and you correct 99% of the (few) problems people have with Linux.

no. Gentoo is different enough (1)

alizard (107678) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012644)

at a technical level that it's worth saving. Someday, distributing apps as binaries may hit a wall in terms of efficiency and matching individual hardware and if that day comes, we'll be glad there's another way to do things out there which has people who understand it.

mod fuP (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22012318)

FrreBSD 4roject, [goat.cx]

Gentoo as a learning aid (3, Interesting)

dmneoblade (848781) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012356)

Gentoo was my way of learning a lot about linux sysadmining in a short time. In a couple weeks, I learned how to compile packages, manage partition issues, compile kernels, deal with numerous config files, and many other skills. I later switched to Ubuntu, but I still appreciate my time spent with gentoo as a great learning aid. Just enough help to make it not as hard as LFS, but hard enough to be challenging.

Re:Gentoo as a learning aid (1)

matria (157464) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012596)

Then you should really appreciate the LFS program...http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ [linuxfromscratch.org]

Re:Gentoo as a learning aid (1)

jawtheshark (198669) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012816)

... Which he mentions in his own post ...

Re:Gentoo as a learning aid (2, Funny)

Teppic_52 (982950) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012888)

Quote from the Gentoo forums

I would have used LFS, but didn't fancy using a notebook as a package manager

Re:Gentoo as a learning aid (1)

rjames13 (1178191) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012978)

What's wrong with make uninstall? It works...sometimes :)

Gentoo needs drobbins (4, Insightful)

Reverse Gear (891207) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012386)

The reason for this offer from Daniel is imho not as important as it is that he is offering to step up back as the leader of this project and take his job down to part time so that he again can put some energy into the role as leader of Gentoo Linux.
Gentoo badly needs some leadership right now, Daniel has done it well before and had Gentoo thriving while he still was at the helm, so let's get him back there and get this ship back on course.
I really hope that the council will accept this offer for the best of Gentoo and not let their personal agendas stand in the way of the good of Gentoo ... though I fear that might happen once again.

Leadership: Gentoo-way (2, Funny)

Dark Coder (66759) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012412)

#
# emerge -C gentoo-leaderships
# emerge -uDv gentoo-leaderships
# echo "Deep Leadership Upgrade: Done."
Here's to hoping that its "package" dependencies don't break.

will fail silenly (1)

tiq (23806) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013266)

You wan this I think:

emerge -C gentoo-leaderships &&
  emerge -uDv gentoo-leaderships &&
  echo "Deep Leadership Upgrade: Done."

Why is the foundation required? (2, Interesting)

grahammm (9083) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012414)

I have been a user of Gentoo for time and have never seen an explanation of why the foundation is needed or even what it does. Looking at the home page under 'About Gentoo', 'Philosophy' and 'Social Contract', I do not see a foundation mentioned at all. To quote from 'About gentoo'

To advise on and help with Gentoo's global development, a 7-member council is elected on a yearly basis which decides on global issues, policies and advancements in the Gentoo project.
. To my mind the council seems to be sufficient, so why the need for and fuss about a(n almost unmentioned) foundation?

Re:Why is the foundation required? (1)

Rakishi (759894) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012448)

The foundation is from what I can tell the LEGAL entity behind gentoo so the domain belongs to the foundation, for example.

Re:Why is the foundation required? (1)

Teppic_52 (982950) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012650)

They own the IP too, all the Gentoo specific configs have their copyright notice in them.
I believe they control the bank account too.

Re:Why is the foundation required? (1)

grahammm (9083) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012826)

They own the IP too, all the Gentoo specific configs have their copyright notice in them.
But all of the IP is licensed under GPL-2, so anyone can use, modify and/or distribute it subject to the GPL-2 rules. I know that where a 'natural' person owns copyrights that if they die then the copyright passes to their heirs. What happens to copyright which is owned by a corporate entity when that entity is dissolved?

Re:Why is the foundation required? (1)

Teppic_52 (982950) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012908)

What happens to copyright which is owned by a corporate entity when that entity is dissolved?
I believe that to be one of the current problems.

Re:Why is the foundation required? (1)

greenrd (47933) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013032)

If someone buys the copyright (remember an entity going bankrupt will sell assets to pay creditors), they get it. If no-one buys it... who's going to sue? It's effectively public domain, right?

happens to copyright? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013046)

This is well defined under the incorporating state law. They pass the IP, liabilities, money and other property to another willing entity incorporated under the same clause.

501c3 -> 501c3. Happens all the time. Though the legal negotiations usually last until bank accounts approach zero.

Re:happens to copyright? (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013124)

Any code changes are licensed under the GPL, your state is welcome to make changes to their GPL'd code and keep it secret, that is if they can find which lines were edited. Otherwise they might be violating someone elses GPL'd code which would mean they lose their right to use that persons GPL code that was included with theirs rendering any of their newly acquired code useless.

Since a lot of upstream projects request that you assign over your copyright to the project's admin, actual code owned by Gentoo could not even exist.

Gentoo (-1, Troll)

tiny69 (34486) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012580)

Troll mode on:

Gentoo has always been a group of amateurs. When Gentoo first started, they'd SPAM Slackware IRC channels. "You know how to compile software. Do you want to become a developer for Gentoo?"

Just look at the history of problems they've had with emerge or whatever they call it. /me ducks

The state of Packagage Managers (1)

Zombie Ryushu (803103) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012700)

There is but one Linux. But there are multiple forms of packaging. Mandriva and Fedora/RedHat/CentOS can be lumped into the category of having dependancy resolution problems too rigid. Mandriva specifically suffers a loss of redundacy when a source of RPMs fail. Yum keeps mirror catalogs. urpmi from Mandriva has the added ability of using SSH and Kerberos to "Mass Deploy" applications, and can centralize with LDAP. No other package Manager can do that.

But both urpmi and yum fail at handling source code package. You have to download them and compile with rpm --rebuild.

When it comes to Debs, I have no idea how to build Debs. Ubuntu and Debian lack the SSH/Kerberos mass deply ability and are even HARDER to recompile than RPMs.

Portage Handles source Code gracefully. Thats its strength.

I sorta wish that some of these projects would merge. I wish that urpmi handled mirror failures and did a better job than it does. I wish that urpmi could handle source code. Likewise, I wish that yum could use SSH/Kerberos

Now, Slackware tends to be problematic, no package dependancy can result in chaos.

I also take issues with things like Autopackage RPM and DEB are here to stay. get over it.

Re:The state of Packagage Managers (1)

Yfrwlf (998822) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013020)

I wish everything was modular like it should be, so "Linux" was a single "platform", and that it didn't matter what distro you were running because it was merely an certain selection of packages and nothing more, and if you liked the good things about one distro but not others, you could install those good things on your own distro.
 
Linux desperately needs modularity and a universal package management system, so it won't fragment and die like most of Unix.

Re:The state of Packagage Managers (1)

BlackCreek (1004083) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013066)

When it comes to Debs, I have no idea how to build Debs.
FYI: I think the ``Correct Way'' is: 1. Either download directly or use apt-src 2. then: dpkg-source -x $package_name.dsc cd $package_name dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot Or you could *try* to use apt-build (but I don't know if they ever got that to work as advertised). In a hurry you could also use "checkinstall" http://asic-linux.com.mx/~izto/checkinstall/ [asic-linux.com.mx] (which is a sort of hack for packages without the files to use the first two suggestions). Cheers,

Re:The state of Packagage Managers (1)

BlackCreek (1004083) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013092)

> When it comes to Debs, I have no idea how to build Debs.

FYI:
I think the ``Correct Way'' is:

1. Either download directly or use apt-src
2. then: dpkg-source -x $package_name.dsc
cd $package_name
dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot

Or you could *try* to use apt-build (but I don't know if they ever got that to work as advertised).

In a hurry you could also use "checkinstall" http://asic-linux.com.mx/~izto/checkinstall/ [asic-linux.com.mx] (which is a sort of hack for packages without the files to use the first two suggestions).

Cheers,

Re:The state of Packagage Managers (3, Insightful)

rjames13 (1178191) | more than 6 years ago | (#22013094)

Now, Slackware tends to be problematic, no package dependancy can result in chaos.

Yes and us Slackware users divert that chaos through /dev/random increasing our cryptographic key generation abilities.

Seriously I have used Slackware since before ver 3 and have never seen chaos from dependancy issues. You make it sound like it crashes computers at random. But as someone who actually knows how it works I can tell you this, all a unresolved dependancy issue does is stop a specific program from running until that dependancy is met. If foo needs bar then the system does not crash foo just complains and exits. This is Linux not Window95.

Gentoo & OpenEmbedded are Unique Linux Dists (1)

Anomynous Coward (80091) | more than 6 years ago | (#22012954)

The form of 'metadata' stretched out on top of both these distributions are what make them unique.

portage for Gentoo & bitbake for OpenEmbedded

With each, a (usually) high degree of control is given in how to shape the distribution's function and attributes. And this is repeatable from "first principles" compilation of source code (from tool chain onwards).

What is needed is research and standardisation in the ontology of this metadata and it is for this I believe Gentoo can still play an essential role.

Anyone who has spent a lot of time tweaking parts of their application, OS space, kernel and boot methods would certainly appreciate the ability to reproduce that work from scratch if need be.

To publish and share this metadata distribution 'state' is to fine tune the virulence of GNU/Linux beyond the GPL and into the real (and virtual) system space.

shine, .vortex

Suffered more than that ... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013262)

I was a long time Gentoo user who got fed up and move on. As a software developer myself I found it too laborious to figure out why the latest emerge brought my system down. QA was non-existent and especially so for x86_64 platforms.

Gentoo overall is a decent idea for people who like configurability, but it's too fragile. For instance, I recall one update to the latest glibc which had some bugs in the portage script. Next thing you know nothing, and I mean nothing, works, since they all link against it. There is no "roll back" ability in gentoo, which honestly would be a good idea (and given they have installed files lists it's entirely possible).

I switched to Ubuntu and haven't looked back. While it's less configurable than Gentoo it's more than good enough, and it "just works."

In reality, Gentoo needs to improve the QA and safety (e.g. roll backs) facets more than their leadership.

Please make a donation. (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013322)

www.freerice.com

No thanks, Ubuntu is king (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013534)

Say what you will about Ubuntu, at least Mark Shuttleworth didn't kneel before Microsoft.

Gentoo (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013566)

I've was using Gentoo since pre version 1.0, I've submitted ebuilds that got accepted in portage and was a contributer at heart. I noticed a big change when Daniel Robbins stepped down, a big enough change to get me to drop the use of Gentoo.

I would love to welcome Daniel Robbins back and and I wish there was a way to allow community vote.

I gave up on Gentoo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22013580)

Leadership was a mess and it trickled down to the regular users. Fortunately, I found a system that lets me be even more elitist and I haven't been happier. OS X is great, and my new octo core Mac Pro is AWESOME! I can download mp3s really quickly now.
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