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Mozilla M13 (Alpha Version) is Out!

Roblimo posted more than 14 years ago | from the slowly-but-surely dept.

Mozilla 362

try67 (and many others) wrote to tell us Mozilla Milestone 13 was made available yesterday. Check the release notes here. You'll see full builds for Linux, Win32, and Mac OS 8.5. And the source, of course. This is the long-awaited Mozilla Alpha version. Have fun!

cancel ×

362 comments

First (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332098)

But when will a Win32 API based Netscape using Gecko be released?

Don't forget the mirrors... (4)

Telcontar (819) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332101)

This is the mirror list [mozilla.org] of ftp.mozilla.org mirrors. I checked the nearest mirror to me, it was up to date; so don't /. the main ftp server :-)

It will be important for *many* developements (1)

Reinout (4282) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332108)

Hello all,

I think mozilla will be important vor many other developements related to the internet. XML comes to mind here. When a good decent standards-compliant browser is freely available for all platforms, things can start rolling!

First, i'll try my newly downloaded mozilla, then I'll read your thoughts upon this subject.

greetings,

Reinout

First post with M13 (-1, Smartass) (3)

darylp (41915) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332111)

Just downloaded it now. It's working a hell of a lot better than previous releases, so if you were put off by it a while back, give it another go!

Note to Win32 users: You must grab the install version, as there's a few library files that need to be bang up to date which the normal version can't fix.

Re:First (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332113)

Why the H was this moderated dowm? Because I put "first" in the title?
This is a valid concern. I'm waiting for the next version of Navigator which will use the Gecko rendering engine for displaying pages, and the WIn32 libs for the actual browser. In other words, a windows application using new browser technology for use on windows. What's the problem with that?

strange priorities? (2)

hkon (46756) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332115)

Am I the only one thinking (after having read the release notes) that the mozilla team might benefit from focusing slightly differently? I mean, they make a browser with an integrated editor and mail/news functionality, but with stop and back-buttons that quote:"fails intermittently"??

Layers & control (3)

robwills (121453) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332117)

I have just downloaded and run M13 and am using it to post this comment !

However, I have tested it on a site that uses layer hiding/showing and it does not show/hide the layers ... at all :(

Still, this looks and feels really nice, and will use it to browse sites without layers.

Keep up the good work.

3rd time lucky maybe (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332207)

But when will a Win32 API based Navigator using Gecko be released by Netscape/AOL (not Mozilla, NETSCAPE/AOL) THIS IS A SERIOUS COMMENT. DO NOT MODERATE IT DOWN!

Alpha =/= ready (1)

icqqm (132707) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332212)

Well I'm glad they've finally hit the alpha stage. Now we'll just have to wait for the various less-informed to uninstall their browsers and switch to Mozilla just to find out it doesn't work half the time. Strange considering most of the problems seem simple enough to fix...

Alpha? (1)

ryan360 (123742) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332215)

What's the need for the term "Alpha"? It already seems stabler than my copy of Communicator 4.7. I'm a happy man.

Free the lizard.

Re:Layers & control (1)

darylp (41915) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332219)

The LAYER tags, as used in Netscape 4, aren't being supported in Mozilla at the moment. Don't know whether the Netscape-branded version (Mozilla != Netscape) will have extra code to handle them, but I doubt it.

Mozilla w/ Proxy! (1)

PacketMaster (65250) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332222)

Mozilla M13 works withs proxy servers, something it wouldn't seem to do for me before this release. I immediately gave it the nastiest test I could think of -- the web interface for MS Exchange. Is runs the pages better than IE5! NICE job Team Mozilla!

Re:3rd time lucky maybe (1)

puetzk (98046) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332226)

Next milestone is supposed to be the netscape branded beta release, if that's what you mean...

Tal about ./ effect! (1)

DerFeuervogel (136891) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332229)

It is interesting to watch the /. effect in action. Within Minutes the server is crawling to deliver i386-Linux.tar.gz. [mozilla.org]
An article on this phenomenon or a reference to previous discussion would be nice. How slashdot.org avoids this is indeed a tribute to their setup.
I guess I can get it tonight after the rush is over. The mirrors are crawling too :0)

-DF

Alpha/Beta? (1)

Griim (8798) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332232)

Does this mean that there will be an M14 Beta before it's finally declared stable? Or is this the stage before final release, (meaning everything beforehand was technically a beta)?

this is potentially...ummm... (2)

matticus (93537) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332235)

i support the development of mozilla fully and all, i just can't help thinking how mozilla/netscape is going to recover the millions of users that MS stole. I still remember when netscape was king of the hill, and i still use netscape, because like it or not, messenger is a great email client. but how is this going to affect the millions of users that use IE because "it was already installed on their computer?" the hardest browser battle yet may be trying to get former netscape users back to mozilla rather than just giving up. but for that we need a stable browser whose bandwagon we can jump on.

Re:Layers & control (5)

RPoet (20693) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332245)

As quoted from this very interesting article [lycos.com] at WebMonkey:

Most notably, and are gibberish to Communicator 5 and will be ignored. The same goes for the Navigator 4 DOM extentions -- if you use document.layers[] in your JavaScript, it will fail. In fact, Communicator 5 will be more similar to IE 4 and IE 5 than to Communicator 4.

Re:First (1)

Ptolemarch (11506) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332248)

A Win32 API-based Netscape using Gecko

Um, that's what Mozilla [mozillazine.org] is. If you're wondering when it'll finally be released as a full product (not Alpha, not Beta, and bearing the Netscape logo), we're all wondering that.

The philosophy seems to be the same one that has made Linux good: It'll be done when it's done.

(But it's predicted to happen sometime about April or May.)

Re:strange priorities? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332251)

haha How very true. It kept comming across my head that very thought, but I never really had an answer. Will there be a version of Mozzilla that is only the browser and not anything else (mail/news/editor)?? Anyone know.

Re:Tal about ./ effect! (1)

MostlyHarmless (75501) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332254)

This story [slashdot.org] discusses the slashdot effect. There also is an addenum [slashdot.org] that describes the /. effect on the /. effect paper :-).

void recursion (void)
{
recursion();
}
while(1) printf ("infinite loop");
if (true) printf ("Stupid sig quote");

Lucky 13? (2)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332256)

1. I notice this one's out more or less on schedule, without said schedule being altered ex post facto. (That's not a troll, just an observation -- I'm 110% behind Moz, and don't really care when the releases come, just so long as they come, and they're done right.) The previous release was IMO probably the first which could be appreciated by non-geek types as being something resembling the kind of software they're used to using. Let's hope M13 is even more so. an

2. Don't forget, kids, not only to use Moz from home, but be sure to follow your kindly old Uncle Zontar's example and install it on your machine(s) at work as well... Let the PHB's see you using it... Let it be known to them that you regard it as something to be taken seriously, and that it's not just some toy. Thank you.

3. Slightly offtopic: Why does M12 support my scroll wheel under Win98 but not 95? Both are MS Intellimöuser both using the v 3.0 drivers.

Using M12 to post while I download M13... :)

Zontar The Mindless,

pretty cool (1)

DarkClown (7673) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332260)

Nice to see this solid build (it rocks - check it out!) come out right as Shaver is stepping down as project leader. Any word on who his replacement will be?

Re:strange priorities? (1)

Paul Carver (4555) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332264)

I agree that it would be nice to have a fully functional web browser rather than a partially functional web browser and a partially functional news and mail program (which I'll never use because there are already available mail and news programs that are far superior to anything that will ever be in Mozilla), but it's too late to gripe about it now. The Mozilla team has inherited the Netscape philosophy that news and mail are somehow part of a web browser and nobody's going to convince them they're wrong.

Mozilla w/ Proxy, but no auth (3)

Krollekop (86346) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332266)

Mozilla does work pretty well with Proxy, but I advise you to skip this release if your proxy requires authentification, like mine does.

Indeed it seems this alpha build can not remember your proxy password, which means that you have to enter your id and password dozens of times (frames + images) for each url you visit. I finally gave up after visiting my third bookmark. Sigh.

Initial thoughts (2)

Chemical Serenity (1324) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332268)

I managed to snarf it just as the comment got posted. I'm glad I got it early.

M13 is definately worthy of being called a browser now. The rendering speed has substantially improved, and there doesn't appear to be suffering any of the old rendering glitchies. Scrolling is finally nice and smooth. Slashdot appears to render pretty much exactly as NS4.7 does it.

I'm quite impressed with the rendering speed of complex tables. A stats matrix I generate as part of a traffic tracking system produces a page with several thousand elements... M13 was able to rip through that in about a second, give or take .5. Verrry nice.

There's still some UI issues... text centering, odd ugliness here and there. For example, it'd be nice to have the mouse switch to a pointy-style when hovering over a scrollbar, rather than staying in the "I" shape (which only occurs periodically, so there's obviously some sort of glitch there). It IS still alpha though, I won't sweat it too much.

Keep up the excellent work Mozilla peeps. You're almost there.

--
rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)

Re:Mozilla w/ Proxy! (1)

azzy (86427) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332274)

I downloaded M13 (serious probs w/ IE won't bore you with).

But I can't get it to accept a proxy and work.

No proxy is not an option for me :(


Have I missed something? Does the proxy only work for you?
</whine>
Well, it is only an alpha....

I never looked at it closely before, but... (1)

TheDullBlade (28998) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332276)

...it's a monstrosity. It's a great wallowing pig of an application like Netscape. No wonder it's taking so long to get up to speed, they aren't doing a core functionality and building up layers of extra gadgets and niceties around it, they're globbing everything they can think of into it at once and seeing what emerges.

Oh well, they can't all be Lynx. ^_^

Re:First (2)

acb (2797) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332281)

The philosophy seems to be the same one that has made Linux good: It'll be done when it's done.

But will it be much better than MSIE 5.0? Other than it running on Linux, what advantages will it have over IE?

-- acb, running Netscape 3.0 but tempted to buy a more powerful machine to run vmware and IE5

WOW! (1)

Arickx (27115) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332284)

Cool.. Mozilla used to crash like hell on Slashdot and formatting really sucked (had those very same problems for a loooong time, up until MS12), but now I'm actually using it to post this very message. The guys have sure made a LOT of progress over the past months and I can only congratulate them on a brilliant effort finally coming to fruition. Keep up the good work!

__
Arickx
L'Enfer, c'est les autres.

Mozilla gtk themes ? (1)

mbyte (65875) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332288)

Hi,
I remember using some early mozilla version which
was using my gtk-theme. Now M12, M13 don't use it.

Bug or feature ? :)


Want to know what they fixed? (3)

vanguard (102038) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332290)

The list of bugs fixed in M13 is here [mozilla.org]

As just a rough estimate, it looks like about 760 bugs were fixed. Cool huh?

Re:Alpha? (1)

thue (121682) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332291)

And much faster!

Re:Alpha =/= ready (1)

kmcardle (24757) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332295)

Strange considering most of the problems seem simple enough to fix...
Get off your duff, download the source, and start hacking. If it is so simple, fix it.
--

Stabler than M12? (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332297)

I just downloaded and installed the Win32 version of Mozilla M13. First impressions:

The bad:
  • That worthless side panel is still there, and I still see no way to turn it off.
  • It crashed twice after I started it. First, I went to www.logitech.com and it crashed in necko.dll. Restarted, went to www.logitech.com and crashed in mscvrt.dll. Restarted, went to www.logitech.com and it worked fine. The crashes I don't mind too much, as long as they are predictable. :)
  • Check boxes still don't check.
  • Tab still doesn't work to move among text entry fields.
  • My Logitech wheel mouse doesn't scroll (even after the latest drivers downloaded from Logitech)
  • Keyboard repeat rate is *slow*


The good:
  • Text entry is *much* faster. No flashing anymore when typing.
  • Startup seems faster
  • I'm posting with it right now and everything looks pretty good.

Is M13 as slow as M12 (2)

wowbagger (69688) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332303)

I keep reading about M12 being faster than Netscape 4.7, faster than Exploiter, etc.


Great, let's give this a shot. I pull down the RPM for M12, install it, and run it. Displaying web pages isn't any faster than Netscape, the UI responds glacially, and certain sites still crash it.


Am I missing something? Am I doing something wrong? I'm running these tests on a PPro 200 with 288M of RAM, running RH6.1. From all the comments I've heard, M12 should have flown on my system. Has anyone else seen this? Do I have a stale library?


I plan on pulling M13 down later today (at work, over the fat pipe, rather than my 28.8 link at home) but, really, is M13 really better than M12?

Re:First (2)

Issue9mm (97360) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332305)

Not to sound like TOO much of a zealot, but the fact that it runs on Linux is a HUGE advantage over IE.

If it's stable, and, while I'm not in a position to get it right now, but hear that it is, then that's really all it needs to do to hook most people.

When I'm in a win32 environment, I prefer IE5 (God, save my soul) to Netscape, and version. I still detest IE4, and won't use it simply on principle, but IE5 is stable, and supports standards (translated: all I want out of a browser). I don't want Outlook Express, I don't need any other package inclusions, simply stability, and the ability to render pages correctly.

If Mozilla can do that, AND run on Linux, that's mighty impressive. Now all they've got to do is find a way to redeem themselves to the public that has turned to the darkside (yes master, it will be done.)

Re:Is M13 as slow as M12 (3)

Chemical Serenity (1324) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332309)

I didn't try M12 (too busy doing Real Life(tm) stuff), but M13 is certainly in the ballpark of NS4.7 in a lot of things, and appears to be substantially faster in such things as complex table rendering.

P2-333 w. 128mb, Riva TNT video, RH6.1.

There's still some work to be done with certain aspects (scrolling is nice and clean, UNLESS you wiggle the scrollbar up and down... then it gets kinda sluggish. Oh, and the key repeat rate is friggin' painful. Use the mouse to navigate around text entry boxes). It's apparent that it's still in beta, but it's come a *LONG* way.

At the very least it's worth checking out.

--
rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)

Re:Alpha/Beta? (2)

CAPSLOCK2000 (27149) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332312)

There are some more Milestone's on the way.
A full(?) schedule is at http://www.mozilla.org/projec ts/seamonkey/milestones/ [mozilla.org] .
Currently the Milestones are scheduled approx. 1 month from each other.
Milestone 17 (the last in the schedule) is scheduled for 5/19/00.

Re:Alpha? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332314)

I agree. It stable and fast.

In short, yes (1)

Paul Carver (4555) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332317)

Why the H was this moderated dowm? Because I put "first" in the title?

You post as an Anonymous Coward with a subject line of "First" and you're surprised that it gets moderated down? What were you expecting? If you have something worth saying don't associate yourself with the "first posters", use a meaningful subject line. And it wouldn't hurt to log in. You could get a email address from one of the free web mail services if you don't want to log in with your own address.

Re:First (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332318)

What I meant was a version of communicator which looks the same as, or similar to 4.7, but uses the Gecko rendering engine plugged in as an ActiveX control to render the pages.
The M12 release has mozilla.exe, the browser, and viewer.exe for the gecko engine. What I'm advocating, is the gecko rendering engine as an ActiveX control within a native windows application (like the 95/NT version of Navigator).
I understood this was the approach Netscape was going to take.

Re:First (1)

Issue9mm (97360) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332320)

Well, probably. I personally probably wouldn't have bothered to moderate you down, instead opting to use my moderation points to make others go UP, effectively smothering your little comment, that's probably why.

C'mon, don't play. You had to expect it. You take credit for first post, and then only list a half-intelligent, single-sentence post??? Not much thought involved methinks. Little hint, THINK MORE / post less. If you couldn't think of something smarter to say, God help you. But I believe that you could have, but instead opted to make your comment short, so as to make in time for first.

Judging by the comment I'm replying to, you could have done better in your 'first post', and not have been moderated down.

Fails to work at all on this NT box (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332325)

I'm at work, so I tried running it on NT, and all I get is "nNCL: registering deferred (0)". Not even as much as a window opened. Am I missing something? I'd really like to use it (of course, i won't since Javascript probably won't work and Java certainly won't, and I actually need those). Oh well, I'll keep downloading new versions, one of these days a release is bound to work onthis box.

Re:strange priorities? (2)

Daniel (1678) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332327)

I'm not particularly happy with the design choices (mail and news in a Web browser? Come on!) either, but in their defense: I suspect that the Mozilla browser team has been working more on what you could loosely term "backend" code (rendering, internal algorithms to handle navigation, etc) and hasn't put much effort into the interface; making the back button work right is irrelevant if the code to go back when it's pushed doesn't work.
On the other hand, if the bug here is in the backend code, I retract my defense. :-)
Daniel

Re:First (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332331)

Pretty much none... IE has been the best browser for a while and Netscape 5 will close the gap some but it's still simply not very good.

Re:this is potentially...ummm... (1)

CAPSLOCK2000 (27149) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332333)

Look at it this way. Most IE users use it because it came with the system. Most Netscape users use is because they choose to.
Many "professionals" want to use Netscape but are forced to use IE because of some feature. If Mozilla includes those features there will be another big shift.
OTOH many Netscape users are still using Netscape in awaiting of Mozilla. If Mozilla turns out not so good as the expect (I don't think so!) they will move to IE out of desperation.

Customisation (3)

lovebyte (81275) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332335)

Indeed! Can you customise IE5? Can you change routines, add options, ... with IE5? Nope!

I predict that when Mozilla will be finally released (and relatively bug-free), there will be plenty of improvements that people will do to it. I know I want to add things to Mozilla, but I will wait until it's stable.

Re:Stabler than M12? (1)

Yarn (75) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332336)

View|Sidebar toggles the sidebar, however, it uses a checkmark which you seem to be having troubles with. Its fine in Linux, I'll check out M13/Win32 the next time I reboot.

Re:Mozilla gtk themes ? (2)

Daniel (1678) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332337)

It's a feature. The Mozilla people have evidently decided that they're too good to use native widgets and are opting instead for something that looks like a bad rendition of a TV set. *shrug*
Daniel

Re:Stabler than M12? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332338)

To remove the sidebar, look in the menu "View" and
remove that check from "sidebar".

Works for me ;-)

MS stole NS users, but Linux steals MS users (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332339)

...and there is no IE in LInux

Re:Stabler than M12? (1)

hcsiii (29340) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332340)

View->Side Panel turned it off for me in M13 and M12.

Hasn't crashed for me yet. But I couldn't copy your message for the reply. Selected the text, looked at the edit menu, copy still grayed. Tried Ctrl-Insert and Ctrl-C, to no avail.

I too am posting with M13.

Re:this is potentially...ummm... (2)

trickfish (57639) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332341)

I see mozilla as a real threat to IE's hegemony. This is why:

Linux + Mozilla + Transmeta = Kick Ass Web Device

Embedded Systems, Net access appliances, Web pads...call them what you will, they don't want to run WinCE unless they have to. These devices want powerful, low-cost systems that offer flexibility. Everything Windows isn't. Everything Linux+Mozilla can be.

The competetive advantage of Windows as a development platform ("guarantee" of compatibility and existing market) is diminished in the handheld/embedded systems market, particular if we are looking at apps delivered over the web (in which case technologies such as Java and XML will really shine, and platform becomes less relevant).

In the web-access-device scenario, speed, uptime, bang-for-the-buck systems have the advantage, hence the attention being paid Linux in this area. Throw Mozilla into this mix and you have a total software side solution for web access devices, thin clients, etc. etc. etc.

I personally can't wait to see what happens with these possibilities...

Ethan

Re:strange priorities? (1)

SmileyBen (56580) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332342)

Yes.

In fact you can already install just the browser (apparently - don't ask me how), but you still have to download the lot, since they're trying to keep it simple...

Re:strange priorities? (4)

Matts (1628) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332343)

I think the decision was made simply because throwing all the resources at the browser would have yielded simply too many people working on the core technology, and an impossible to manage project. This way they've split the teams up into sensible chunks working on seperate things. Throwing the other people at the browser/renderer wouldn't really have helped things IMHO.

(I kind of agree though from a user POV, but I know from management experience that they're doing the right thing).

Have they fixed the default fonts/colors yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332344)

I guess I could download it, but every time I see tiny fonts and WHITE menus, unlike any other GTK or KDE program that I run. Can I easily make mozilla play nice with KDE?

Re:Is M13 as slow as M12 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332345)

M13 still feels a tad sluggish on my PII/450 (Mandrake 6.1, G400). It's now nice and usable, though I think I'll stick with 4.7 for awhile longer. I miss the zippy days of 2.02.

Re:Screenshot (4)

Yarn (75) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332346)

Try MozillaZine [mozillazine.org]

Re:Is M13 as slow as M12 (1)

discore (80674) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332347)

quick benchmark:
(on a cablemodem)

windows98 box
pII-350 239meg ram millenium g400 (while securecrt was opened):

pages load 2-3 seconds faster than netscape 4.7 i deleted explorer.

linux box
amd-k2 450 64ram viper 770 (enlightenment, suse-6.3)
pages loading about the same or maybe a tad slower.

synapsis: its a resource hog. arent all browsers? from the looks of the default font when i first started it up these guys have big monitors (i couldnt read it on my 17" in 1124x864) big monitors means nice computers. what can ya do?

at the very least another decent browser has some along. im using it to type up this comment.

thanks mozilla


ps. this text field is acting a bit choppy heh

Re:Why not moderate this down (1)

Griim (8798) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332348)

This isn't 'bait' so much as it is 'Offtopic'

Re: Turning sidebar off. (2)

Matts (1628) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332349)

View->Sidebar

Also, regarding crashes - make sure you deleted your old registry and install directory.

Re:First (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332350)

At least on my machine (PII/450), MSIE 4/5 under Win98 feel much faster (scrolling, rendering, "back") than M13 or 4.7. But then again, MSIE 5 for Solaris isn't too bad either (course it doesn't match any of the Solaris CDE apps, looks like it was torn right out of Windows). Anywho, M13 has come a long way, but still needs a kick in the rear for speed and some menu organizaion.

Re:Stabler than M12? (1)

mdxi (3387) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332351)

The second option in the View menu is "Sidebar".

Uncheck it and the sidebar magically disappears.

This same technique works for the three toolbars, which are found under the *first* option in View, "Toolbars".

AOL and Mozilla? (OT) (3)

_Gnubie_ (14485) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332352)

A week ago I was watching the 6 o' clock news here in Ireland. A report on AOL's new software devel house for 400 ppl here was mentioned. They showed screenshots of software engineers and they were all using MOZILLA. Ok It was just a really quick screenshot and I didnt see MSVC++ open with AOL-Mozilla.cpp being editted :)

How is Netscape going to pull itself out of the pit and back into direct competition with IE? Can you say "Mozilla on every single AOL users desktop" ?

Re:Have they fixed the default fonts/colors yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332353)

It still looks pretty goofy under my KDE setup. Haven't played with it much yet (downloaded it just now). Also seems like they had a monkey do the menu and settings layouts.

Re:Stabler than M12? (1)

Salant (69004) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332354)

-snip-

It crashed twice after I started it. First, I went to www.logitech.com and it crashed in necko.dll. Restarted, went to www.logitech.com and crashed in mscvrt.dll. Restarted, went to www.logitech.com and it worked fine. The crashes I don't mind too much, as long as they are predictable. :) Check boxes still don't check.
-snip-

Alpha :)

A few impressions (3)

TummyX (84871) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332355)

It's usable, certainly much more than NS4.7 which I can't stand. Like previous versions, you can resize the window (eg. max/min) without the browser reloading the page from the server, just like IE & Opera has been doing for over 2 years :P. It's nicely done, a bit slower than IE, but I guess the reason for that is the same reason why the drop down menus, and just about everything in the UI seems abnormally sluggish.

The thing on the left (a copy of window's extensible explorer bands?) doesn't expand properly after it's colapsed, it kindda dissapears and doesn't draw itself properly.

Fonts, does Mozilla not support native windows fonts? I now portability is an issue, but I'd kind of like mozilla to honour my exotic fonts if they're installed in windows.

CSS seems to work nicely now, like IE :P.

I'm going to start testing web pages now with mozilla as well as IE (i gave up on NS4.7 ages ago).

I know mozilla is supposed to be 'standards compliant' and all, but I still find that IE always seems to be able to render and support the more exotic parts of the standards while mozilla is till 'getting there'.

Oh well, looks promising. Anyone know if there's an ActiveX wrapper for mozilla yet (IE has had that since IE3)....which is why so many apps have integrated HTML (WinAmp, Neoplanet, Office, and other 3rd party ones I can't remember :)).

Re:Stabler than M12? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332356)

and why does that damn thing always segfault on Suse's on startup but on Redhat runs ok ?

any hints appreciated :/

Awsome browser (1)

infodragon (38608) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332357)

I'm using mozilla now. It is a little slow but much better than the previous release. I like the look and feel. I definatly renders microsoft ASP pagse better and faster than it did before and better than netscape 4.7. So far I haven't found any web pages it can't render. I'm really excited now. I can't wait for the beta release.

Re:Stabler than M12? (1)

DeadSea (69598) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332358)

My font sizes in Mozilla are small enough to be almost unreadable. (I'm using it under linux). Changing the default fonts does nothing., Selecting "bigger font" does nothing, and selecting the "readable" stylesheet does nothing.


I won't be able to use it until I can make the fonts a bit bigger, but other than that I really like it.

Despite what others say about the side toolbar, I find it quite useful. It's a nice place for bookmarks, since on a large monitor, you get a lot more real estate in the sideways directory. I am always wishing that I could see more verticle web space but I have room to spare on the edges.

Aggggg.... My eyes now though.


Re:Mozilla w/ Proxy! (1)

PacketMaster (65250) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332359)

I can't say I'm having the same problems. I'm running behind an HTTP-only proxy on Win2000 and it's humming along.

Re:Customisation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332360)

Yes, you can. Go read a book on COM. I've built several custom browsers for corporations based around the MS HTML rendering engine; you can do a lot with COM.

Sometimes, infinitely customisable software isn't a good thing, you know. What was that I read somewhere about merging linux with W2K so everyone could spend more time configuring their OS??? ;-)

Re:NOOOOOO! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332361)

A good text browser is w3m, it handles frames. The lynx code isn't the best. Apparently, there's another text mode browser called "links" that is not lynx, but I haven't found it anywhere yet.

Also, in the height of wierdness, there's an Amiga port of Lynx hacked to display inline images (!) on the Aminet.

still NOT usable (1)

Ender Ryan (79406) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332362)

I don't know why some of you are saying it's more usable than nutscrape 4.7... maybe on a fast box it is. BUT, on my PII 233, with 96 megs ram, running RH 6.1, it is WAY slower than nutscrape 4.7. Not only that, but a large number of pages still are not rendered quite right. Scrolling is very choppy, this text box I'm typing in is extremely chopppy...

If this thing requires a PII450 to run properly, that's just not good enough. This thing should be able to run on a low end pentium or a 486, IE4 and nutscrape 4.x both do.

Sorry to sound like such a party pooper, but this thing just seems like it's still got a long, long way to go.

I sure hope I'm wrong though, I'd really really like to be using a fast, stable browser in Linux...


Re:I never looked at it closely before, but... (5)

bjb (3050) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332363)

No, no, no.. You're missing the point of how this program is evolving.

The first cut was a monstrosity because it was simply the snapshot (more or less) of the current Communicator code with some minor changes. We all know Communicator is enormous.

The second cut was a total rewrite; basically what you see today. The key improvement here, besides the fact that it was a total rewrite, is that the HTML rendering engine is FAR more efficient and handles all the standards properly as per specifications (you can't say that about Communicator, IE or Opera!)

The rendering engine (Gecko) is more or less completed; they are still tweaking and adding minor features to it, but without a program to wrap around the engine, what's the point? Now what you're seeing is the addition of a mailer, news reader, preferences, history, etc. etc, eg. all the other crap that makes a modern web browser. Yes, this stuff is going to add to the code size, but the most important part of Mozilla is that the HTML rendering engine is quite good and very efficient.

Now only if I can get this release to build on Solaris... ;-)

--

iCab (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332364)

They ought to steal some ideas from iCab, the mac only web browser. The thing I like about iCab (other than being only 2.8 megs and using about 4 megs of ram) is the security. It basically has the internet junkbuster stuff built in. It will filter out images by keywords (such as "ad") or by IP. It also selectively blocks cookies. Netscape let's you have it prompt you, but iCab let's you list hosts you will always accept and always decline cookies from. If you tell it to prompt you, it will bring up a dialogue with not just accept and decline, but also always accept from this host, and always decline from this host. And it also let's you set your user agent to get into sites that try to block you (or to screw with people's log analyzers :) Let's see some of the features in mozilla!

SSL (1)

Xtacy (12950) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332365)

the last mozilla i downloaded didn't have SSL capabilities, and i think i read somewhere that due to the export crap, SSL would be a third party product to add to mozilla, any clue when this would be?

I run a site that is all SSL and a few other sites i need to get to are SSL so it makes it difficult to move to the new browser at this time :(

Netscape (For Alpha!) Out (1)

John Goerzen (2781) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332366)

I glanced at the headline; it's a bit confusing. Remember that there is an Alpha platform, and in fact, Netscape for Linux Alpha was released barely two days ago, so we're all excited about that :-)

Re:Is M13 as slow as M12 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332367)

Mozilla isn't beta yet. This is the first alpha release. Alpha means "there's still bugs, and we know about lots of them, and they're not fixed yet, and this release may not be feature-comlete".

Beta means "we've fixed all our most known bugs, but there's bound to be more, but this release should be feature-complete". Microsoft software generally never gets past beta by these definitions, but of course they release it as if it's a finished product.

Re:First (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332368)

Oh I see.
But do I see anything I wasn't seeing before?
No.
I've already expanded the "half intelligent" comment in this thread and others, so I'll let it lie.

Too early for an alpha (1)

Webmonger (24302) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332373)

I don't know how they can call this an alpha release when there are important bugs outstanding.

CSS2 provides a way to achieve the same effects as frames with none of the drawbacks. It's called "fixed positioning". Mozilla implements it, but their implementation needs to be, err, "fixed".

For heaven's sake, I have been waiting for a good implementation of this standard since it was called CSS-P. (Now you can't find mention of CSSP on the W3C site!)

Re:Mozilla w/ Proxy! (1)

StaticLimit (26017) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332374)

That's a darned good point. I crash Communicator 4.7 somewhere around 5 times a day any time I'm doing serious web development. Lousy environment to develop for. About half the time, it just stops processing the page after a certain number of characters.

I'm really looking forward to a Mozilla that fully supports DHTML (an earlier post mentioned that layers don't work).

- StaticLimit

Have you looked closely at Lynx? (1)

The Pim (140414) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332375)

You actually might be even more disgusted ;)

Lynx is a terribly twisted bit of code. Many security holes have been found, most of them suggesting bad design. I guarentee there are many more to be found if anyone looks. I would be petrified to surf with Lynx if anyone cared to target exploits to it.

But I still love it. Slick browser.

Strange Gray Lines (1)

Uri (51845) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332376)

Does anyone else occasionally get these strange gray lines [cam.ac.uk] which refuse to refresh, especially when scrolling up a page?

Re:Customisation (1)

lovebyte (81275) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332377)

Come on! You cannot customise everything that way. And I am not saying everyone should customise everything. If you have some good ideas and want to experiment, then you can do it.

Re:Stabler than M12? (1)

Seraph (9484) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332378)

I am the poster of the original comment. It wasn't checkmarks on the menu with which I had problems, but checkmarks on HTML forms, such as the "post anonymously" button. It was checked when I made that last post, but I couldn't tell it. (And on my only post that has ever actually been moderated up, too! *grumble*)

Anyway, the View|Sidebar thing worked perfectly. I just went back and looked and that was in M12 as well--somehow I had missed it.

Oh, and here on my work PC the problems with the tab key and the checkboxes do not occur, so maybe it is a video card/driver or OS issue? I'm running Win98 with a Rage Pro at work; my home machine has Win95 with a Matrox Millennium. Anyone with a similar setup having similar problems? I just assumed they were widespread, so I haven't reported them as bugs--they were so fundamental, surely they would soon be fixed! However, if it's limited to my certain setup, maybe it is time to dig out my Bugzilla password.

Or, and this just occurred to me, perhaps it is a problem with the scroll mouse driver. (I have already read the Logitech scroll mouse tips in the release notes.)


NOOOOOO! (2)

TheDullBlade (28998) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332380)

Say it ain't so!

Lynx is as small and efficient as ed, and that's all there is to it!

(hands over ears)
LALALALALALALALALA

Re:Stabler than M12? (1)

revnight (8980) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332382)

which version of SuSE are you using? 6.3 works fine, i just had to set up a symlink.

Mozilla renders widgets using its layout engine (1)

divec (48748) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332383)

It's quite a clever idea, makes the UI standard across all platforms. Of course, the drawback is that you lose your GTK themes.

Re: whoops (1)

TummyX (84871) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332386)

M13 just crashed :)

It is just a milestone, so I'll forgive it :P
Before IE5, IE was known to crash once or twice too.

Re:Stabler than M12? (2)

MindStalker (22827) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332393)

I've noticed that the scroll mouse workes much better in win98 than in win95 for mozilla. This may be your problem, thought why that is I don't know.

Re:strange priorities? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332394)

The inclusion of a mail and news apps is not strange at all.

Mozilla is the way that Netscape have chosen to develop Netscape 5.0 and Communicator 5.0. While geeks and more advanced users recognise the value of having an app which does one dedicated task and does it well (like a web browser, a separate e-mail client and so on), the average Joe Bloggs down the road that Netscape is targetting will install Communicator on their machine and use all its components. They like the consistent look and feel and can't be bothered installing a separate application, and having to - shock horror - enter their mail server details and so on.

Netscape's objectives are more based around Communicator anyway. Haven't they dropped the standalone browser release? Since it's an integrated suite of apps, it's not surprising that it contains a mail and news apps.

Netscape is targetting ordinary consumers. People that just use the web and the Internet as a tool in their life rather than building their lives around it. Hence the inclusion of mail, news, Winamp, AOL Messenger and so on.

Re:strange priorities? (2)

Surak (18578) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332395)

Hmmmmm...is that anything like that philosophy that Web browsers are somehow part of the operating system? :P

FIVE messages on the SIDEBAR???? (1)

Surak (18578) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332396)

*FIVE* messages to tell the guy how to turn of the FREAKIN' SIDEBAR? Isn't this a little EXCESSIVE? Sheesh!

FWIW, I *like* the sidebar.

*ducking*

Re:Stabler than M12? (1)

DeadSea (69598) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332397)

I just discovered that changing the character set helps a lot. Either unicode or windows character sets seem to work just fine.


Re:Layers & control (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 14 years ago | (#1332398)

Wow! Microsoft is toast now!

Re:Mozilla w/ Proxy! (1)

n-baxley (103975) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332399)

I have to disagree, I'm running WinNT through a transparent proxy server and I can't get out with any of the settings. With M12, I was able to set it to direct connection and browse everything but our company stuff behind the firewall, now, I can't get out with any proxy setting ON M13 OR M12! I would think that this would be a high priority since I'm guessing many users are behind proxy firewalls. Nate

Ugly as hell in 8-bit color thought! (1)

Horizon_99 (58767) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332402)

I'm on my work machine (win95) wich can only do 256 colors in 1024x768 and I have to say the interface is butt ugly at this color dept and the page refresh is a bit jittery too...

Re:SLASH LICENSE (1)

Cadaver (12501) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332403)

Since when has the GPL required this?

--

Re:Mozilla w/ Proxy! (1)

DrXym (126579) | more than 14 years ago | (#1332406)

You can use a proxy, just modify the default prefs file "all.js" to contain your proxy settings. Details are somewhere in the Bugzilla system and numerous Deja articles.
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