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Texas Creationist Museum Facing Extinction

kdawson posted more than 6 years ago | from the going-the-way-of-the-dinosaurs dept.

It's funny.  Laugh. 824

gattaca writes "A small Texas museum that teaches creationism is counting on the auction of a prehistoric mastodon skull to stave off extinction. The founder and curator of the Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum, which rejects evolution and claims that man and dinosaurs coexisted, said it will close unless the Volkswagen-sized skull finds a generous bidder. 'If it sells, well, then we can come another day,' Joe Taylor said. 'This is very important to our continuing.'" Meanwhile, the much larger Creation Museum in Kentucky that we discussed and toured when it opened last year seems to be thriving.

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wha? (1)

Kim Jong Ill (1033418) | more than 6 years ago | (#22093988)

'If it sells, well, then we can come another day,' Come again?

Re:wha? (1)

Potor (658520) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094136)

i always knew creationism was porn, but i thought it was intellectual porn. now i know otherwise...

Evolution is a theory too (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22093992)

Hate to be the one to break it to y'all, but evolution is pretty much just a theory too. Theory as in, not fact. (My pastor has a really good explanation of this.) What makes it better than proposing Creationism?

Think about it.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (5, Informative)

Daniel_Staal (609844) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094030)

Falsiblity. Predictive ablity.

Some resemblence to the facts we can find in nature.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (2, Funny)

UbuntuDupe (970646) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094310)

So biology professors have a higher genetic fitness than Christian fundamentalists? :-P

Re:Evolution is a theory too (5, Insightful)

Captain Splendid (673276) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094330)

Y'know, it occurs to me that anti-evolutionists don't just have a problem with evolution, but also geology, cosmology, carbon dating, physics. Any I missed?

Re:Evolution is a theory too (5, Insightful)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094412)

Y'know, it occurs to me that anti-evolutionists don't just have a problem with evolution, but also geology, cosmology, carbon dating, physics. Any I missed?

Sexuality. Other religions.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22094428)

that wouldn't be anti evolutionists that would be people who are creationalists. It is possible to be both anti evo and anti creation.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1)

evanbd (210358) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094550)

Modern medicine and drug-resistant diseases.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (2, Insightful)

Daniel_Staal (609844) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094564)

Biology and it's whole sub-genere called 'medicine' come to mind...

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1, Troll)

stokessd (89903) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094070)

All the substantiation behind it maybe? The fact that it doesn't break laws of thermodynamics etc.

If an all-powerful god can create all of life and everything, how do you explain cancer and the other flavors of suffering god's creatures are facing? If he's involved in the day to day, he's pretty nasty, our best hope is that he's an absentee landlord.

Sheldon

Re:Evolution is a theory too (2)

jandrese (485) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094182)

I think the point is that he's supposed to talk up his love for everybody, but in secret only loves the ones that suck up to him. That's why animals have such a rough go of it, they aren't smart enough to brown nose the one way that really counts.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22094264)

I would think someone should do a little research before making comments on such a subjet.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1)

Shakrai (717556) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094544)

If an all-powerful god can create all of life and everything, how do you explain cancer and the other flavors of suffering god's creatures are facing?

Forgot about all of those mundane things. What's cancer in the grand scheme of things? The question I've always posed is: If God is all-powerful and loves us so much, then why the hell did he create a universe that's going to end in a big freeze [wikipedia.org] or big rip [wikipedia.org] , the end result of which is the extinction of every single life form in the universe.

Keep your fucking Bible out of my science classroom please. We can talk about creationism in theology class, where it belongs.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (5, Insightful)

southpolesammy (150094) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094072)

Believe whatever you want while within your church. Just keep it out of the science classroom.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1)

0a100b (456593) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094106)

Evolution must be better because God thinks so, how else can this museum be on the brink of extinction?

But seriously, my professor probably has a better explanation than your pastor.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (4, Informative)

ruiner13 (527499) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094112)

Theories can be tested to be proven or disproven using scientific methods. Creationism cannot. What scientific research would you propose to test the "theory" of creationism? Evolution can be studied by examining DNA progression, fossil records, etc.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1)

IdleByte (879930) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094244)

Agreed, saying creationism is right just because is the equivalent of saying 5+3 = 13 because god says so.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (5, Insightful)

Daniel_Staal (609844) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094388)

Actually, I think a better argument is the predictiveness argument: Science is about learning to understand and predict the world around us, so we can make it better. (Of course 'better' has a host of different meanings, but regardless of which we choose, we need to be able to understand and predict, so we can choose the results of our actions.)

Evolution makes predictions that are accurate enough to be useful, regardless of whether is it aboslutely true or not. (For the record: It's as true as anything we've ever come up with.)

Creationism makes no predictions. In fact, it prevents them: Why did this happen? God did it. Will it happen again? If God wants it to. Will it stop? If God gets bored. Can we influence it? If God decides to be influenced, yes. In the end, 'God' is unknowable and unexplainable, so by saying God did it we have stopped all thought, inquiry, or prediction on the topic.

Which is probably why it is attractive to some people: They don't want to think.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (0, Troll)

Entropius (188861) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094138)

Think about it.

I have. Have you, or do you let your pastor think for you?

"Theory" is just a term for "scientific idea that has some measure of acceptance and support." The theory of evolution has a huge amount of support, and is tested every day.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1)

Billosaur (927319) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094298)

And it was labeled a "theory", as all good scientific explanations are. At the time. I think by now, "theory" is a misnomer when it comes to evolution. Scientifically speaking, it's on the same par as the "laws" of gravitation, planetary motion, and thermodynamics. Note I put these things in quotes, because even laws are subject to change, such as when Newtonian gravity was altered and enhanced by Einstein's theories.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1)

e4g4 (533831) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094478)

"theory" is a misnomer when it comes to evolution
I disagree. "theory" is perfectly apt for describing everything in science, be it evolution or gravitation. Calling it a "law" is, I think, dangerous as it projects the image that our understanding of the universe as framed in said laws is immutable, which is, of course, preposterous. The problem here is that creationists and scientists clearly disagree on the definition of the word "theory", and as anyone who's ever entered a heated debate knows, no meaningful discussion can be had when two parties disagree on fundamental definitions.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1)

ByOhTek (1181381) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094532)

We are refining too much still to give it the same respect as gravity in terms of bredth and depth, but all things considered it is extremely unlikely that the "final" theory will be significantly different from what we have now for a scientist, or noticably different for the those who haven't studied it extensively.

What I call the "final" result is the state where all the main points and conjectures are highly unlikely to change, and the smaller details are what will get filled in. More or less the state (I think) Gravity is at today.

So is gravity (1)

spun (1352) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094174)

Theory means something different in the language of science than it does in everyday speech. All of science is theory. Gravity is a theory. The 'law' of supply and demand is a theory. Theories do not pretend to be fact, but good theories accurately predict outcomes. It doesn't matter whether they are true or not, they provide us with information. Creationism is not a theory because it can not be used to predict useful information. Theories can never be proven 'true' but they can be proven not to predict things correctly. As creationism makes no predictions that can be shown to be false, it can not be disproved like a real theory can. Therefore, it is useless mental masturbation. Evolution is not, it makes useful predictions, and so far, all of them have been shown to be true. So evolution has utility, whereas creationism has none.

Definition of theory (1)

jbeaupre (752124) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094570)

Oh great and powerful wikipedia, what say ye? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory [wikipedia.org]

My wife teaches middle school science. One of the curriculum requirements is for students to understand what theory and law means in science (not as detailed as the link, the kids are only 12). Oh, yeah, and she teaches in KY a few miles from the creationist museum. Ironic, eh?

Re:So is gravity (1)

Av8rjoker (1212804) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094576)

Last I heard it was the LAW of gravity. Science can have so much evidence that it turns into a law, which can be proven with experimenting. Can you experiment with religion?

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1)

Ginger Unicorn (952287) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094214)

that's a very very transparent troll. C- for effort though.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1)

Freeside1 (1140901) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094222)

Because all dinosaur fossils that have been found are way older than all human fossils. Besides, how did Noah fit 2 of every dinosaur on the ark?

Re:Evolution is a theory too (2, Insightful)

ByOhTek (1181381) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094290)

First of all, we are talking scientific theory vs. layman's theory.

What a non-scientist calls a "theory", a scientist calls a hypothesis, and isn't remotely worth of theory status.

1) Evolution is a scientific theory. To achieve theory status in science, you typically have to test something rigorously and show it to hold up well. The theory of evolution has mathematical/statistical models defining it, explains evidence found on earth very well, and can be tested.

2) A law is achieved by one of two methods: a theory that is not disproved (or even seriously challenged) for a ridiculously long time can achieve "law" status in the books. Alternatively if it can be rigorously proven that no other explanation is possible, the process might be sped up a bit.

3) Creationalism, as the ministers at the church I went to when I was younger suggested, DOES NOT conflict with evolution. The former is the who and why, the latter is the how.

May I ask how your pastor described a theory and went over it?

Also, may I ask how creationalism can be mathematically and statistically defined, as well as tested? For all I've seen in this argument, I've yet to see a good mathematical or statistical model for creationalism, or an accurate test.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1)

e4g4 (533831) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094296)

A theory [wikipedia.org] in science is defined to be something that is both testable and falsifiable. Relativity, both special and general, is a *theory*. To this day, relativity is still known as the "theory of relativity" - in spite of the fact that there is solid, factual evidence to suggest that relativity is, in fact, a correct interpretation of the laws of physics at speeds approaching c and in gravitational fields. Creationism, or Intelligent Design, on the other hand, is not a theory. Why? Because it's not falsifiable - you can't definitively say "if life was created, we would not see [some property of life]" because the counter argument "because God made it that way" can always be made.

Oh, and ending a statement with "Think about it" does not strengthen your point.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (3, Informative)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094302)

Hate to be the one to break it to y'all, but evolution is pretty much just a theory too. Theory as in, not fact. (My pastor has a really good explanation of this.) What makes it better than proposing Creationism?
This is a strawman argument, and an old one at that. That word "theory" doesn't mean what you think it means.

The closest word to theory in the sense you use (as in 'guess') in the scientific community is 'hypothesis.' An hypothesis is just a guess. Maybe a somewhat educated one based on observation, by still just a guess.

OTOH, a theory is something much more substantial than a guess -- it is falsifiable, repeatable, consistent, and verifiable. Gravity is "just" a theory. Evolution and gravity meet these same scientific criteria.

Creationism does not. It is not verifiable (no, your 'Good Book' doesn't count). It is not falsifiable (we can't prove that without it, there would be no man). And it is not repeatable. (We can't just make a man in a lab from dirt.)

So Creationism doesn't meet the criteria for theory. It merely meets the criteria for hypothesis, and not a very good one as it's based on only one observation -- a 6,000 year-old story written in a book.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (2, Insightful)

LnxRocks (759556) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094474)

"Creationism does not. It is not verifiable (no, your 'Good Book' doesn't count). It is not falsifiable (we can't prove that without it, there would be no man). And it is not repeatable. (We can't just make a man in a lab from dirt.)"

I have to chime in on this. These same points would also seem to apply to evolution.

specifically:
verifiable - Design and evolution are 2 conclusions both reached from varying interpretations
repeatable - You can't evolve man in a lab either.
falsifiable - based on number 2 it will always be a matter of probability whether man evolved.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (5, Informative)

Kozar_The_Malignant (738483) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094448)

Hate to be the one to break it to y'all, but evolution is pretty much just a theory too. Theory as in, not fact.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya
From the BioTech Life Science Dictionary: theory definition:"In science, an explanation for some phenomenon which is based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning. In popular use, a theory is often assumed to imply mere speculation, but in science, something is not called a theory until it has been confirmed over the course of many independent experiments."

What makes it better than proposing Creationism?
  • Evolution is supported by repeatable, publicly observable experimentation. Creationism is not
  • Evolution is supported by massive amounts of publicly observable evidence. Creationism is not.
  • Evolution is falsifiable. Creationism is not.
  • Evolution makes testable predictions. Creationism does not.

Think about it.
I strongly urge you to begin doing so, rather than following the lead of charlatans.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (1)

clickclickdrone (964164) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094572)

You say it like we don't know - it's called 'evolution theory' or 'the theory of evolution' which is kind of a hint. Difference being, unlike the Church's angle, this one features this thing called evidence.

Re:Evolution is a theory too (2, Insightful)

PinkyDead (862370) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094580)

Words, eh! Who'd have though they could have more than one meaning:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=theory [reference.com]

Evolution would be under definition #1, whereas creationism comes under definition #7.

Creationism in Europe? (3, Interesting)

nlitement (1098451) | more than 6 years ago | (#22093996)

Has any fellow European of mine ever come across any serious creationists? Is this solely an American phenomenon?

Re:Creationism in Europe? (-1, Flamebait)

Schnoogs (1087081) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094044)

You do understand that it was Europe that dumped this religion on us?

Re:Creationism in Europe? (2, Insightful)

Lemmy Caution (8378) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094118)

While there's a kernel of fundamentalism in the UK, I'm afraid this particularly virulent, anti-science, Know-Nothingist, inerrantist version of Christianity is an American invention.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22094170)

Actually, many people went to North America so they could practice their faith without fear of persecution.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (4, Informative)

dada21 (163177) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094248)

You do understand that it was Europe that dumped this religion on us?

No, they didn't. The modern, and very flawed, Evangelical movement was kicked into high gear by some power-hungry madmen by the names of Dwight L. Moody and Cyrus Ingerson Scofield. Moody had a big effect on the British and Irish, actually, promoting their crazed movement there, too.

* I'm a Protestant-leaning Christian, but definitely not of the Evangelical nature. Sadly, most of my friends and family are still under the sway of the madness called the modern Evangelical movement. I also have a soon-to-be-published book (electronic as well) that I'd love to share with slashdot readers who are interested in why it is time for Christianity to take a new direction.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (1)

Ginger Unicorn (952287) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094370)

Are you a native american indian then? Cos otherwise europe hasnt "dumped" anything on you, europe dumped you on them.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22094392)

You do understand that it was Europe that dumped this religion on us?

Actually, it's more that Europe dumped on your ancestors because of that religion, and your ancestors got all snippy and left with it.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (2, Interesting)

dintech (998802) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094074)

I used to work for a well known company in London and met a colleague visiting from Moscow. He stanuchly believes that God created everything and that evolution probably can't be relied upon. Being a colleague I couldn't really push him too far on the point for fear of HR reprisals...

Re:Creationism in Europe? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22094492)

How long ago was that, anyway? I only know one single family where most are still members of some rather conservative christian sect, and most of those again apparently believe in creationism. I can still remember when one girl of that family was asked in class during a discussion of plate tectonics why she was looking so angry, and her answer was that that'd all be nonsense, since god created the world 5000 years ago. I've not met anyone else, even very devout christians who have ever admitted to a belief in creationism.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (2, Informative)

SharpFang (651121) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094148)

none that would have any significant political influence.

There is still a bunch of uneducated people 'right on the bottom', but nobody at least somewhat educated, somewhat influential, somewhat famous takes creationism seriously.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (1)

Thunderstruck (210399) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094574)

What about Pope Benedict?

Re:Creationism in Europe? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22094232)

No I really haven't. Not that I can remember anyway. And that's the truth. -Norway

Re:Creationism in Europe? (2, Interesting)

Potor (658520) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094234)

I recently gave a talk in Brussels, and there were definitely a few creationists there, but I suspect that they were American, or at least North American. The thing is, they were not yokals, but highly paid expats.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (2, Informative)

oliderid (710055) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094246)

It depends if you consider Turkey as European.
http://www.harunyahya.com/ [harunyahya.com]

This organization is litteraly sending thousands of books (called Atlas of Creation) to schools around Europe.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15857761/ [msn.com]
Nobody clearly understands where their funds come from...But they are "huge".

Re:Creationism in Europe? (2, Informative)

BlueParrot (965239) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094284)

It differs a lot from country to country. Ireland is one thing , Sweden quite another. I've met some creationists, but most of them are of the "God created the universe , Big Bang and the standard model takes it from there... " kind of creationists. We don't get many "young earth" creationists where I am , but I dunno what it is like in the rest of Europe.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (2, Insightful)

ruiner13 (527499) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094332)

Um, isn't the Vatican in Europe? There might be a few people there who believe.

There are Fundamental Protestants there? (1)

georgeha (43752) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094424)

The Popes have said evolution is largely correct.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (2, Insightful)

stewbee (1019450) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094476)

Most Catholics that I know actually believe in evolution. In general, those that take the bible literally are those that tend to believe in Creationism. Catholics tend not to have a literal interpretation of the bible.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (2, Funny)

Rogerborg (306625) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094496)

Um, isn't the Vatican in Europe? There might be a few people there who believe.

You mean the cleaners and janitors? Most likely, but is there anyone influential there who believes that a big beardy man buried dinosaur skeletons to fuck with our minds?

Re:Creationism in Europe? (1)

Woldry (928749) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094530)

Yes, but Roman Catholicism has no problem with evolution. The previous pope declared that there is no contradiction between the Bible and the theory of evolution. (The current pope, being significantly more conservative in most respects, may someday contravene that declaration, but at present, it still stands, AFAIK.)

Re:Creationism in Europe? (4, Informative)

Ecuador (740021) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094420)

Nope, this is just here in the US. Actually, I have problems even explaining what Creationism is to most of my European friends. In the end they sort of figure it out ("Oh, it's like that hollow earth stuff").

The church in many European countries is busy trying to show that if the Bible is read like it is supposed to (i.e. not taken literally) it really does correspond with the scientific findings. 7 days for god is obviously some billion years for man they tell you and they take it from there, showing how through metaphors the scientific facts known to us were hidden in the text.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (1)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094422)

There's probably the same amount in America as anywhere else. The only difference is that we have multiple 24-hour news networks that have to make-up stories to keep going. Yeah, some wacko made a museum in his garage and now he's out of money-- that wouldn't be "news" before CNN/MSNBC/Fox News came along. At best it'd be a paragraph in the local paper.

In short, I doubt it's actually an issue, it's just way, way over-reported in the news.

Re:Creationism in Europe? (1)

clickclickdrone (964164) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094426)

>Is this solely an American phenomenon?
Thankfully yes. Never heard of it outside the US although it may exist elsewhere (I haven't been everywhere and asked, just wanted to clarify..)

Re:Creationism in Europe? (1)

Teun (17872) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094462)

I'm not sure whether this is a good or a dumb question you're asking.

Possibly a good question in the sense you might be genuinely wondering if this sort of thought has any followers in Europe like in America.
Or maybe a dumb question by even suggesting creationism could at all exist in Europe as opposed to America where it seems to thrive.

As a European that travels a lot I can tell you with some confidence that creationism is as good as non-existent in Europe and when it's mentioned it is generally met with an 'only in America' disdain.

Of course also in Europe there are (fundamental religious) groups who see their holy scripture as a mathematical fact book but they have no political or social credibility of any sort. Quite the contrary, the vast majority of Europeans sees them at best as weird and more likely as idiots.

The last classification can easily befall the USofA due to the apparent seriousness with which this silly debate is approached.

Quick.... (5, Funny)

geek42 (592158) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094016)

... no one buy it!

Re:Quick.... (1)

houstonbofh (602064) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094254)

No problem... Everyone here knows "God Blessed Texas" so it has to be a fake... ;)

Re:Quick.... (1)

ByOhTek (1181381) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094416)

I've been not buying it all my life.
Why would I quit now?

Texas and Kentucky... (4, Funny)

ruiner13 (527499) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094026)

Two states where I'm pretty sure you could find arguments against evolution just by looking at the local populace. I guess if they don't believe in evolution they don't feel the need to do so themselves.

Re:Texas and Kentucky... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22094280)

Whoever marked the parent post as flamebait has never been to texas nor kentucky.

Re:Texas and Kentucky... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22094444)

So you're suggesting these people are instead proof of intelligent design?

Re:Texas and Kentucky... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22094502)

If they are, I hope the designer got fired.

Re:Texas and Kentucky... (1)

JonWan (456212) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094568)

I'm glad somebody modded this funny, but it's more true than you might think. They don't call it the BIble belt for nothing.

Natural Selection (1)

rotide (1015173) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094032)

And just like animals, this museum joins the ranks of other extinct beings. Sometimes a runt like this is born but without the proper tools, Natural selection eventually catches up with it!


Lets just hope it didn't procreate first!

keep an open mind (1)

Essequemodeia (1030028) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094060)

If I bid on that fossil those creationists better start playing ball. Jesus descended from a fish and although he spread love and happiness to his diaspora of disciples he probably was the kind of person who would punch you in the arm every thirty seconds while you talked to him face to face. Jesus was a land of contrast.

The Market Speaks! (3, Insightful)

dada21 (163177) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094084)

I'm a Christian of the preterist nature. I believe in evolutionary forces as part of God's creation. I don't believe in a 6000-year old Earth (neither do most Jews who hold the Old Testament in a different way than many Christians do). I also think the debate of evolution versus creationism is really repugnant and a waste of time when there are so many other things we can be spending our time on (we meaning "us Christians.")

I can't even begin to count the billions of hours wasted by Christians in living life in ways completely counter to what our God teaches us. Look at the battle over the 10 Commandments, laws of the Israelites' God that have been countermanded by Christ's teaching to a much more simpler set of rules (completely love God first, completely love others second). And yet, when we dig deeper into the "Why" of modern Christian thought, we come up against the same problem that I see in those who are pro-government: we need "leaders" and we need "rules" and we need "penalties" to keep us in line.

What has happened to the powerful individual in today's society? Evolution versus creationism is a debate that strikes at the heart of my question: why is it that we need "teacher-leaders" to stick to a specific standard, rather than what the individual kid in a unique place in their specific city/society needs to be taught? I can't even understand why science is taught to ALL children, along with higher level maths, when the kids today can barely count, let alone read or speak properly. I had a 20-something in my town use a calculator at a checkout line 2 weeks ago when I gave her $21.01 for a $6.06 charge. Unbelievable.

Creationism and evolution are both articles of faith, and really have no purpose for MOST students. Then again, I truly believe that even High School is worthless for 70% of society considering what it is churning out.

Re:The Market Speaks! (5, Insightful)

pubjames (468013) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094304)

Creationism and evolution are both articles of faith

You start off sounding like a very reasonable person, and then end with that.

You have faith in something you cannot prove. Like the existence of a god.

There is tons of evidence for evolution and none against it so no "faith" is required. Or is gravity an article of faith too, because you never know, one day something might fall upwards?!

Re:The Market Speaks! (3, Informative)

Entropius (188861) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094328)

Evolution is not an article of faith. It's a matter of fact, something you can walk around and see in organisms that change quickly (bacteria, insects).

Re:The Market Speaks! (1)

Blakey Rat (99501) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094358)

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless
beyond words.

When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of
elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of
restraint.

-- Hesiod, Eighth Century B.C.

Your complaint is as old as human civilization.

I can't even understand why science is taught to ALL children, along with higher level maths, when the kids today can barely count, let alone read or speak properly. I had a 20-something in my town use a calculator at a checkout line 2 weeks ago when I gave her $21.01 for a $6.06 charge. Unbelievable.

Do you think there were stupid kids in the 1960s? Or in the 1920s? Or in the 1870s? In which decade could every single American easily do that math problem? And when you answer, try to come at me with some documentation instead of relying on old wives' tales.

Re:The Market Speaks! (1)

Dr. Manhattan (29720) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094366)

I can't even understand why science is taught to ALL children, along with higher level maths, when the kids today can barely count, let alone read or speak properly.

Yes, there are problems with the educational system in the U.S. Big ones, even. But that doesn't mean that we should give up on the idea of a well-educated populace. A few hundred years ago the notion of universal literacy would have been laughable, but we have multiple societies today where literacy approaches 100%. I can't help but hear "why should we teach those slaves to read?" in your question, though I know you didn't mean it that way.

(As to your attempt to equate creationism and evolution - well, only one is an 'article of faith' in any reasonable sense, and as to why we should teach evolution more generally, see David Wilson's "Evolution For Everyone". I think you'd find it interesting.)

Re:The Market Speaks! (1)

dada21 (163177) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094542)

Yes, there are problems with the educational system in the U.S. Big ones, even. But that doesn't mean that we should give up on the idea of a well-educated populace. A few hundred years ago the notion of universal literacy would have been laughable, but we have multiple societies today where literacy approaches 100%. I can't help but hear "why should we teach those slaves to read?" in your question, though I know you didn't mean it that way.

I take exception to the idea that we have anywhere near 100% literacy in the U.S. Reading various blogs today points to me that this is true. Literacy rates have FALLEN [lewrockwell.com] since compulsory education has been forced on us. Literacy rates in the 1800s were higher than they are today. Google old English books from that time frame and see if the kids today can comprehend any of it.

We live in a society of Cliff's Notes and txt5p3k, definitely not a literate society. Just because a person comprehends phonics enough to "read" doesn't mean that they are literate.

Re:The Market Speaks! (2, Funny)

Rogerborg (306625) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094440)

FYI, here's what I just read:

I'm a Christian blah blah zombie saviour blah cognitive dissonance blah blah invisible sky giant blah BOOGY MAN blah blah nothing at all to do with the subject under discussion blah

Thank you for your insightful contribution, which I rather suspect stands ready to be cut and pasted into any discussion featuring the words "science", "religion" or "bat shit insane cultists who view everything in relation to their paranoid schizophrenia about a huge beardy man who will torture them for ever unless they flatter him".

Re:The Market Speaks! (1)

Pebble (99243) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094504)

Why did you want 14.95 in change? Surely 21.06 would have been better?

Re:The Market Speaks! (2, Interesting)

robot_love (1089921) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094506)

Hi, I've been looking for a Christian who believes evolution poses no problem to Christianity for a few months. May I ask you a question?

How do you deal with the problem of original sin? I see the problem as thus: If evolution is true, there was no literal Adam. If there was no Adam, there was no "fall". If there was no fall, what do we require Jesus to "save" us from?

I (as an ex-Christian) deal with this by saying Christianity is not real. I had a long talk with my father (a conservative evangelical minister) over Christmas, and he feels that evolution would completely undermine his faith so he deals with it by saying evolution is not real.

I am quite curious how you feel about this issue. I rewrote this post about 4 times but couldn't find words that I was confident implied I'm not looking for a fight, so I'm resorting to this disclaimer. You'll get nothing but polite and (hopefully) well-thought out responses from me. I look forward to your answer!

Re:The Market Speaks! (1)

BlueParrot (965239) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094578)

I had a 20-something in my town use a calculator at a checkout line 2 weeks ago when I gave her $21.01 for a $6.06 charge. Unbelievable.


I have a degree in mathematics and quite frankly I would have used a calculator as well. Not because I couldn't do the maths in my head, but because I'd want to make sure to get it right. Besides, being able to do 4-digit arithmetic in your head is hardly the best metric for mathematical ability. As one PHD in maths told me when I was teasing him for getting his change wrong in the pub: "Why would I need to get that stuff right? It is only occasionally I come across numbers anyway."

When it comes to teaching people science. Well, if we are to continue to use a democratic system of governance it is in society's best interest that the voters are not completely ignorant about how the world works. I agree with your point about it being a bit futile thou. I've run into a physics students who claimed that a 1m^2 solar cell at 100% efficiency would exceed the power output of a nuclear power plant. There isn't a good way to describe how I felt when I heard that little gem.

Re:The Market Speaks! (1)

IchNiSan (526249) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094588)

Sounds like maybe you need the calculator, why would you give someone extra money(one dollar one cent over twenty) in order to get back $14.95??????? Why not just give the extra five cents and get to 15 even? I don't blame someone for using a calculator for that, you just gave fucked numbers.

God will... (2, Funny)

TapeCutter (624760) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094154)

...either smite them with bankruptcy or send a saviour to the auction, their accountant has been weighing their sins and thinks a press release might help. /ducks

TEXAS !?! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22094156)

Holy dog shit! Only steers and creationists come from Texas...

.... and this guy doesnt look like a steer [mtblanco.com] to me!

SCORE! (1)

IdleByte (879930) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094184)

Score one for reality...

Planetarium (1)

Chaos Rules (114689) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094192)

Does their Planetarium at the bigger museum have the sun revolving around the earth?

The KY Creation museum (3, Interesting)

techpawn (969834) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094200)

The KY Creation museum isn't too far away from here and everyone that I've talk to that has gone or wanted to go hasn't done so out of religious belief but out of morbid curiosity or think it's funny. Their success is the same as that of the bearded lady, or so it seems to me. Once people get over the initial shock and humor it'll fade into obscurity.

Illogical, insane, and institutionalized... (2, Insightful)

beheaderaswp (549877) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094236)

I sometimes wonder about the wisdom of giving free publicity to organizations like these. From my standpoint they represent an institutionalized mental illness- that of denying reality. Denying reality is certainly akin to "doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result".

I do understand the religious issues that fuel these kinds of organizations. But it has always seemed to me that since "truth" is central to any religious belief, that an attempt to derail truth through ignorance or outright deception was a horrible "sin".

With the way organizations like this adhere to biblical writing, one might be able to accuse them of having a book as "god" rather than the apparently supernatural "God of the Gaps" most people seem to engage in their spirituality.

The inerrancy of God seems plausible to me. The in inerrancy of a book seems like sheer insanity.

Re:Illogical, insane, and institutionalized... (1)

dada21 (163177) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094442)

With the way organizations like this adhere to biblical writing, one might be able to accuse them of having a book as "god" rather than the apparently supernatural "God of the Gaps" most people seem to engage in their spirituality.

I agree, and I'm a Christian. Biblical writing, especially modern translations, are full of errors because of what common and power-hungry men wanted.

The inerrancy of God seems plausible to me. The in inerrancy of a book seems like sheer insanity.

God is inerrant, that I agree with. The Bible, though, was never MEANT to be "inerrant." Modern Evangelicals call the Bible "The Word", and "The Word" is inerrant in the Bible, but the Bible is not The Word!

For Christians who disagree:

Isaiah 38:4 "Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah, saying," the word is someone that can speak.

Jeremiah 7:1 "The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, " again, someone that can speak.

Ezekiel 25:1 "And the word of the LORD came to me saying, " same thing.

Zec 6:9 "The word of the LORD also came to me, saying, " Duh.

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

My pastor, who is an Evangelical, holds up the Bible and calls it "the Word" and I cringe. The Word was with God from the beginning, and was God, and was fulfilled by his other name: Jesus. To me, as a Christian, the Word is love. True love, for God, for others, without judgment or hatred or penalty from my hand.

How hard would it be for modern Christians to change from being haters and judges and penalizers, into what Christ truly embodied?

For those who "hate" Christians, would you change your mind if the Christians really loved everyone, and stopped with the stupid harsh judgment and power-mongering that we do today?

Well... (1)

19061969 (939279) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094240)

If it fails, then I guess that's evolution - it wasn't fit to survive in its environment. Perhaps some nice creationist being will be kind enough to make them survive market forces.

Way to advertise for them.. (1)

tji (74570) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094288)


Couldn't this story have waited until AFTER they had to close?

Re:Way to advertise for them.. (1)

clickclickdrone (964164) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094522)

This is /. - they probably thought it *would* have closed by the time the story appeared given the less than steller timeliness of most articles here.

Teh funnay (5, Funny)

mingot (665080) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094340)

The funny part about the original CNN article I read on this said that Heritage Auction Galleries estimated the age of the thing to be at around 40,000 years old. At least the musuem guy is letting smarter people sell the thing.

Re:Teh funnay (1)

Critical Facilities (850111) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094464)

Even better, on the "museum" website, there's this page [mtblanco.com] where the guy explains why Giant Humans existed. Priceless.

Obviously a fake. (4, Funny)

philicorda (544449) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094396)

How can they sell this skull as a 40,000 year old artifact if they claim it's less than 6000 years old?

Definitional clarity, please (1)

Empiric (675968) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094398)

"...which rejects evolution..."

"Rejects evolution" has lots of possible senses, and I'm wondering if the museum asserts:

a) Rejects that evolutionary processes occur
b) Rejects that evolutionary processes exhaustively explain human existence
c) Rejects the premise that evolution leads by logical inference to an atheistic position

Anyone know what specifically the museum asserts? My usage subset above, in my mind, ranges from "indefensible" to "very reasonable"--and on the basis of "rejects evolution" alone I'm not sure what an appropriate response would be.

I've been to it. (3, Informative)

JonWan (456212) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094404)

It's about 35 miles from me on the road to Lubbock. He has some really nice fossils, but his interpretation is just plain weird. He built a huge human leg bone to show people what the "giants" would have looked like. The problem is he didn't take into account the strength of the bone and simply scaled it up to giant size. The local schools take classes on field trips to see the museum, I need to ask the high school kid that works for me what they are told when they visit. Knowing the teachers around here they teach this stuff in their class, it's shame really.

Pick it up cheap in liquidation (1)

Dr_Barnowl (709838) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094482)

I sincerely hope that all the real natural history museums have the sense not to bid on this. Not only would they be funding an institution that opposes and mocks them, they'll be passing up the opportunity to buy the mastodon skull and everything else that this "museum" holds at bargain prices when it goes bankrupt.

The Great Creationist Debate (3008) (1)

PinkyDead (862370) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094484)

Did Creationist Museums and Humans actually co-exist?

(god, I hope this shit isn't still about in a 1000 years).

Maybe it could evolve... (1)

Bullfish (858648) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094514)

into something like a museum of human gullibility, a museum of political credibility or some other absurdity.

Wel...sort of (1)

djupedal (584558) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094524)

"is counting on the auction of a prehistoric mastodon skull to stave off extinction."

Makes for a nice lead in, but the large gold nugget that is also being auctioned off, and expected to bring +USD$1 mil., will do a considerable bit more staving if you ask me. I can understand how a restored mastodon skull paper-weight would grab more attention leading up to said auction, however.

Difficult Decision (3, Interesting)

areReady (1186871) | more than 6 years ago | (#22094540)

Say you are a legitimate museum/educational institution capable of purchasing this skull.

Do you:

a) Purchase the mastodon skull to preserve an excellent fossil and put it on display for educational value, including its true age?

b) Allow this absurdity and insult to rational intelligence that is a Creation Museum die?
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