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Time for a Vista Do-Over?

samzenpus posted more than 6 years ago | from the better-luck-next-time dept.

Microsoft 746

DigitalDame2 writes "'There's nothing wrong with Vista,' PC Mag editor-in-chief Lance Ulanoff tells a Microsoft rep at this year's CES. 'But you guys have a big problem on your hands. Perception is reality, and the perception is that Vista is a dud.' He goes on to confess that the operating system is too complex and burdened by things people don't need. Plus, Vista sometimes seems so slow. Ulanoff gives four suggestions for a complete Vista makeover, like starting with new code and creating a universal interface table. But will Microsoft really listen?"

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Nothing wrong (5, Funny)

QuickFox (311231) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245108)

Indeed there's nothing wrong with Vista. Except of course the operating system.

Re:Nothing wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245172)

Actually, Vista is an incompetence detector. You are hereby notified that you have 24 hours to report to the disintegration chamber.

Re:Nothing wrong (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245234)

Its funny this article should come up today; one week ago I installed Vista on my toilet seat. Well, not exactly my toilet seat, but the little Eepc I have sellotaped to the bottom of it, so I can my family's fecal throughput throughout the summer. Unfortunately the machine is in no way capable of running such a bloated operating system, and the resultant poor performance of my toilet seat has caused my family to succumb to devestating constipation. My wife has twice now had to make use of a shoe-horn, and the resulting mess resembles muddy conglomerate. Would it be a good idea to re-install Linux? I'm sure that there is plenty of open-source software that is capable of accurately monitoring fecal throughput? I will keep the Vista DLL's handy in case any functionality is missing from the Linux Kernel, but I assume this is pretty unlikely?

I'd say Vista was definately due for a do-over, or maybe a do-do-over!

Re:Nothing wrong (5, Insightful)

belthize (990217) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245326)

That was pretty much my reaction, read premise: "Nothing wrong with Vista", read
conclusion: "Completely rewrite Vista". Errm .... read middle. Ahh the premise
was wrong ... gotcha.

Belthize

Re:Nothing wrong (5, Funny)

netdur (816698) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245336)

there's nothing wrong with Vista
                  [deny] [allow]

Re:Nothing wrong (5, Funny)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245350)

At least the disc it comes on is pretty and shiny. Unless it came preinstalled on your computer, in which case, you probably don't have a disc, so, errmmm...scratch that.

I was tryin' to say something nice about Vista! Honestly!

Re:Nothing wrong (5, Interesting)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245398)

Are there any numbers that detail the number of vista machines that are due to retail sales, vs. those with vista preinstalled. And of the ones with Vista pre-installed, how many of those had XP as an option.

Re:Nothing wrong (4, Funny)

QuickFox (311231) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245490)

At least the disc it comes on is pretty and shiny.
The box looks nice too.

Let's be honest and give Microsoft credit where credit is due.

Re:Nothing wrong (2, Interesting)

CollectivelyUnique (1230550) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245452)

I have heard so many horror stories about visit that I am terrified to upgrade.

Re:Nothing wrong (2, Funny)

woodrad (1091201) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245594)

I feel the same way about emacs.

Re:Nothing wrong (4, Funny)

Hillgiant (916436) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245622)

I agree. The Operating System in emacs is terrible.

Universal interface table? (2, Insightful)

GreatBunzinni (642500) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245116)

You mean like POSIX [wikipedia.org] ?

Re:Universal interface table? (4, Insightful)

baldass_newbie (136609) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245140)

Vista can be POSIX compliant via a translation layer. But that isn't the problem. The problem is that it's unstable, unusable bloatware. Cripes, I couldn't get Windows Update to run with Microsoft Tech Support. If Microsoft can't get their software to update, how can an average user?

Sorry, the problems are much deeper (and higher) than simply being POSIX compliant. (I'm fighting the urge to say "look at Gnome".)

Re:Universal interface table? (1)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245506)

The problem is that it's unstable, unusable bloatware.

And yet here we are, running it fine everyday. Even performing better than XP.

Cripes, I couldn't get Windows Update to run with Microsoft Tech Support. If Microsoft can't get their software to update, how can an average user?

Something is wrong with your computer. That doesn't mean ALL Vista users are having your issue. I'd suspect most aren't. I've heard a lot of complaints about Vista, this hasn't been one of them.

Re:Universal interface table? (4, Funny)

somersault (912633) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245508)

look at Gnome
give fishing rod to gnome
sleep
take fish from gnome
eat fish

Don't mind me, I'm also fighting the urge to use Multi User Dungeons. I was a fool to think that rehab was the end of it.

Can we get back to Apple news, please??? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245216)

Where the fuck is Leopard 10.5.2? I don't give a shit about some obscure bug fixes for iWork '08 and iWeb. iHate Apple's PR-based software update schedule. How about pushing updates as they're finished instead of waiting for them to coincide with shipments of the MacBook HotAir?

bah (5, Insightful)

tritonman (998572) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245122)

Every 2-bit nerd thinks he knows what's best for Microsoft, why should Microsoft listen to him? Because he has a blog and people read his blog? Like they don't already have qualified people working on their PR problems.

At any rate, Vista's bad image isn't due to perception, I have Vista Ultimate, running on a machine that can definitely handle it, it runs HORRIBLY, this great PC has become my secondary PC which I now rarely use. I'm not the only one like this, I know a couple other people with the exact same "perception" that they got by actually using the operating system.

Re:bah (2, Insightful)

canUbeleiveIT (787307) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245202)

At any rate, Vista's bad image isn't due to perception, I have Vista Ultimate, running on a machine that can definitely handle it, it runs HORRIBLY...
I agree. After the old Toshiba died recently, I bought a new dual-core notebook. Unfortunately, it was not offered with XP and I could not find all of the drivers, so I guess that I'm stuck with Vista. I will admit that Vista has a pleasing interface and now my XP machine's graphics look so old-timey, but damn is this Vista machine SLOW.

The XP desktop boots in half the time and the applications crack right open. On the Vista machine, Opera and Firefox crash regularly and even Outlook hangs up too often. The overall experience is frustrating although I'm hoping that it will get better with a service pack or two.

Re:bah (1)

morgan_greywolf (835522) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245306)

I agree. After the old Toshiba died recently, I bought a new dual-core notebook. Unfortunately, it was not offered with XP and I could not find all of the drivers, so I guess that I'm stuck with Vista. I will admit that Vista has a pleasing interface and now my XP machine's graphics look so old-timey, but damn is this Vista machine SLOW.
The 32-bit Vista drivers might work on XP. You could give it a try. Or you could switch to a competing OS [ubuntu.com] and use Windows XP running under something like VirtualBox for those Windows apps you can't live without. (SCNR! :))

Re:bah (4, Funny)

chrish (4714) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245310)

This is the nice thing about new Windows releases; it makes the previous version seem insanely fast.

Re:bah (3, Funny)

somersault (912633) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245562)

Indeed.. you should see how quick I can finish Minesweeper on Windows 3.1! I also have Quake running at 1600fps, but my monitor can't keep up :(

Re:bah (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245542)

Depending on what you need the machine for, you might be better off just going with Linux. I have a laptop that came with Vista, and it was extremely slow (Celeron 1.5 GHz, 512 MB RAM). I installed Mandriva, and it is now extremely responsive. The interface looks really nice (better than Vista), because Compiz runs beautifully, so I get all the eye-candy, without any slow downs. Now I only use my laptop for internet surfing, watching videos recorded from the TV Tuner on my media centre, web development, and a little light graphic editing. So it does absolutely everything I need. It may not work for everyone, but it sure got me a really nice laptop for way less than what a Vista machine would cost if I wanted it to run as fast.

Re:bah (1)

Pecisk (688001) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245206)

Every 2-bit nerd thinks he knows what's best for Microsoft, why should Microsoft listen to him? Because he has a blog and people read his blog? Like they don't already have qualified people working on their PR problems.
Seemingly they can't damage control Vista failure in PR level, because almost every journal/newspaper openly criticizes Vista. Of course, PR people are not miracle makers - if shit hits da pan heavily, all you can do is stand back and overlook damage and keep your clothes clean.

Re:bah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245220)

I have Vista Ultimate, running on a machine that can definitely handle it


If you have a machine that is rated as being able to run Vista Ultimate, but it runs so horribly that you don't use the machine ... then here is an idea ... wipe Vista and install Linux on the thing. Or, if you aren't quite that brave ... install Linux on it as a dual-boot.

Linux would absolutely fly on a machine that is rated as Vista Ultimate capable. You would probably end up using it as your primary machine as intended.

Re:bah (4, Interesting)

zappepcs (820751) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245232)

I don't think I'm a 2-bit nerd, but I can say this, watching MS languish in the mire that is Vista is somewhat satisfying. Not just because it's good to see goliath having a bad hair day, but because for every day that this continues, more people will begin to realize that F/OSS is not only usable, but valuable. Hopefully, gone are the days when windows defines home computing and the desktop experience.

Re:bah (2, Insightful)

psbrogna (611644) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245592)

I think you're right on with the "realization" comment. But I suggest there's two realizations: 1. the value of the two different kinds of software & 2. (the more imporant one I think) the value of the respective development models. To me, the latter is the more interesting: how much more rapid and efficient the development models typically used by F/OSS projects are than their commercial counterparts. What I'm taking away from the last 20 years is that regardless of the state of given F/OSS project at any point in time, the real benefit is thats over the long run, more collaborative dev. models lead to better value than does typical non-F/OSS models which seem to try and maximize market share and shareholder value. And in fact s/w with a long lineage of commercial development may eventually reach an unmaintainable state with questionable value to the consumer.

Re:bah (4, Insightful)

zeromorph (1009305) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245240)

At any rate, Vista's bad image isn't due to perception,

I think you can count that as captatio benevolentiae [wikipedia.org] of the author, just as a device to get MS to listen to him or to sound more balanced to some audience. As you can see he goes on to advice them to do a complete make over:

Ulanoff gives four suggestions for a complete Vista makeover, like starting with new code and creating a universal interface table.

I think he actually says: Vista is completely flawed. I mean, come on: "starting with new code." He just wraps it into some rhetorics.

Re:bah (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245292)

He's also naive in assuming that MS simply want to sell a good operating system that does what people want at a decent price.
 
This forgets about business and political machinations behind the scenes; for example if MS didn't include their media player, and video and DRM technologies by default in the $20 version of Windows, they might not stand such a good chance of having them become standard and grabbing a critical share of the market. (Remember that the EU were unhappy that MS *were* bundling Media Player). He also forgets that MS want to please those in various positions of influence in business and industry as much as it wants to please its "customers".

This isn't an "M$ sucks!" rant (well, not completely)- just an acknowledgement that they'll do something for medium-to-long term strategic reasons even if it sometimes conflicts with what Joe Public wants.

For example, some have cynically suggested that the intrusive UAC is simply a way for MS to say "we did something about security and people just ignore it/turn it off/etc, so it's not our fault". Of course, it's probably also a fault of people writing software that relies on privileges it shouldn't have.... but then MS did nothing about- and even encouraged- this sort of thing all through the XP years.

PR won't fix this one (1)

Mr. Underbridge (666784) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245348)

Every 2-bit nerd thinks he knows what's best for Microsoft, why should Microsoft listen to him? Because he has a blog and people read his blog?

Of course not...if he were the only one. He isn't. Every 2-bit, 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit and 64-bit nerd who has used Vista seems to be saying the same thing. That's a problem.

Like they don't already have qualified people working on their PR problems.

Appears it isn't working. PR can't polish a turd.

Re:PR won't fix this one (2, Funny)

Loibisch (964797) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245470)

Appears it isn't working. PR can't polish a turd.
Of course they can. The result will be a shiny turd...see the resemblance to Vista? :)

Re:PR won't fix this one (2, Insightful)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245548)

I think much of the "Vista failure" is the herd mentality. People raved and raved about the Blair Witch Project. Was it really a good movie? I hated it, and I think most people looking back today hate it. But everyone was agreeing with everyone else, because they wanted to be part of a group.

Re:bah (1)

psbrogna (611644) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245526)

Why should a company listen to their potential customers? Oh- I dunno, because maybe then the customer might be interested in purchasing the product. While I'm more of a 2-bit nerd then a business expert, I'm pretty sure listening to your customer is an important part of creating, marketing and selling a succesful product.

New Code? (1, Insightful)

Organic Brain Damage (863655) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245130)

C'mon. Starting over from scratch on something like Vista seems a bit drastic. How about some fixes instead? Most widely-used software doesn't come into being whole-cloth in v1.0. Most of it is grown on top of inferior prior versions. Eventually it turns into Windows ME and it's time to start over. But by then the start over (NT) had been through a number of releases.

Re:New Code? (5, Insightful)

baldass_newbie (136609) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245174)

I see your name is apt. Do you even understand what you just wrote and how it conforms to what has actually happened in Windows releases?
Widely-used software is usually paradigm shifting and has feature sets that people not only want but feel they need. Word 6 made a splash because you could open/edit/save in either Word or WordPerfect format - something the folks in Orem scoffed at. Excel had the ability to use either Lotus or Excel keystroke commands while the 1-2-3 folks were wondering whether mouse support was that important.
I tell folks that if they get a Mac they don't have to buy DVD burning software, picture management software, music tools, backup software, etc. and they say, "Wow - that's hundreds of dollars of software I don't have to buy." Plus they hear how stable OS X is and that seals the deal.
It's perceptions and paradigm shifts.

And like it or not, Vista was started from scratch and went the wrong way. Monolithic kernels ain't the answer hence MinWin.

Re:New Code? (0, Troll)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245322)

And like it or not, Vista was started from scratch and went the wrong way. Monolithic kernels ain't the answer hence MinWin.

Monolithic kernels aren't the answer if you are trying to build a great computing platform. But if your plan is to sabotage rival software and to maintain the King-of-the-hill position, then it is the perfect set up. Bloated API makes it difficult for people to write emulators and virtualizers. I am sure there is a lot of internal opposition to the very idea of MinWin. If a clean, lean and mean API exists that will execute all the byte code of Windows executables, a reimplemented MinWin will run as a process in Linux and Apple in no time. And I am sure MSFT knows that, and there are people inside MSFT who will throw monkey wrenches in that process. Finally when MinWin comes out, it will be as big as Vista.

Re:New Code? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245334)

"Widely-used software is usually paradigm shifting and has feature sets that..."

Sorry, I was going to write a coherent response, but my eyes glazed over by that point.

Re:New Code? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245356)

And like it or not, Vista was started from scratch and went the wrong way. Monolithic kernels ain't the answer hence MinWin.

That term, "monolithic kernel"... I don't believe it means what you think it means. I do believe that the concept you have in mind is "bloat".

Re:New Code? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245358)

Monolithic kernels ain't the answer hence MinWin.
This was just way off the mark. MinWin is hardly a microkernel - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7#MinWin [wikipedia.org]

And btw, when did kernels enter this debate? I was under the impression that most of Vista`s woes reside in the userspace - the general bloat, the buggy and unresponsive interface. Plus, I don`t think we`ll ever be able to assess the quality of Vista`s kernel, what with the closed source and all that.

Re:New Code? (4, Insightful)

Yetihehe (971185) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245364)

tell folks that if they get a Mac they don't have to buy DVD burning software, picture management software, music tools, backup software, etc. and they say, "Wow - that's hundreds of dollars of software I don't have to buy."
Just wait till they hear about linux, this is anoder hundreds of dollars they don't have to spend.

Re:New Code? (2, Informative)

sucker_muts (776572) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245420)

Monolithic kernels ain't the answer hence MinWin.

To be more exact, it's not the kernel itself that's so bloated, but the multiple layers around it to provide a 'basic' operating system, API's for userland apps to run, DRM management in sound and video subsystems, probably lots of code to make truly important software to run (like they did various other times [joelonsoftware.com] ), ... that make Vista so slow on 2+ year old hardware.

Re:New Code? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245456)

Like buying a new windows computer that comes with Roxio/Nero, has Windows Media 11 etc on it? Stores push the software because, guess what? They get MONEY for doing that. I can take a computer, slap on free CD Burner XP(which does my DVDs too), put on iTunes for free, etc and not spend a dime.

And of course buying the mac they pay hundreds of dollars more just to get the Mac.

Re:New Code? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245572)

> And like it or not, Vista was started from scratch and went the wrong way. Monolithic kernels ain't the answer hence MinWin.

Of course! It's not like Linux has a monolithic kernel or anything...

Re:New Code? (1)

plague3106 (71849) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245576)

Vista, and I believe all NT based kernels, are hybrid kernels [wikipedia.org] , not monolithic. BSD is also a hybrid kernel, and from what I understand is actually more stable than even Linux.

Re:New Code? (1)

bmartin (1181965) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245620)

I agree that Mac OS X, the Mac platform, and all of the bundled software kick a lot of ass.

But... monolithic kernels aren't the answer? Have you ever heard of Linux? BSD? Solaris? Windows... anything?? Mac OS X?

Hybrid kernels are technically monolithic; they are not minimal in any way, and despite the fact that system services are modular, they are run in kernel space; crashing a service can bring down the entire system. Services in a microkernel-based OS run in user space; they can often be swapped out if they crash. The fact that Windows makes excessive use of RPC doesn't make it a microkernel.

Did you mean, "Everyone uses a monolithic kernel and MS and Apple like to try to soak up the market that really should belong to AIX?" Microkernels have their place... if you're hosting a commercial web site on Blade or i5 servers, I highly recommend against using anything but AIX. The scalability and stability are second to none.

Re:New Code? (1)

skiman1979 (725635) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245214)

If I'm not mistaken, Longhorn, which became Windows Vista, was supposed to be (I think even advertised) as a complete rewrite. At any rate, there are only so many times that you can apply patches and fixes to code before it's time to just scrap it and start over. Security needs to be implemented in the design of a system, from the very beginning of the life cycle, not added in as an afterthought through patches.

Re:New Code? (1)

ozmanjusri (601766) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245464)

Longhorn, which became Windows Vista, was supposed to be (I think even advertised) as a complete rewrite.

Except that rewrite was abandoned late 2004 and the actual Vista which hit the shrinkwrap was based on the Windows Server 2003 codebase, aka XP/2000.

Re:New Code? (1)

ps236 (965675) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245580)

It's not true that 'there are only so many times you can apply patches and fixes'.

Like the Ship of Theseus [wikipedia.org] you can fix things indefinitely, and while it's just an improvement of the old thing it is also a new thing.

Linux has been around longer than Windows 9x or NT, and how many 'patches' have there been for that - loads (even just for the kernel, never mind all the 'extra's, which aren't generally counted as 'part of linux' but their MS equivalents *are* counted as 'part of Windows'), but I don't see anyone saying how it needs to be scrapped and something else started from scratch.

On something as long established as the NT codebase, patching and refactoring is generally a safer & wiser approach than rewriting.

If Vista WAS a complete rewrite, then that is probably at least half the problem. XP was 'good enough' for most people. Really, all that Microsoft should have done is add the new GUI and security features and some other stuff and leave most of it the same. (I'd *hope* that's what they actually did, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a total rewrite)

Re:New Code? (1)

that this is not und (1026860) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245342)

Most widely-used software doesn't come into being whole-cloth in v1.0.

You just pointed out part of the problem. Windows Vista shouldn't be a 'v1.0' product. Yet Microsoft has this tendency to throw things away and start over to a far greater degree than would be the case with a well-engineered software product.

Part of the strength of some other software options, i.e. NetBSD or even Linux to a degree, is that changes and further developments are evolutionary. As changes are implemented to the codebase everything just gets gradually better. There is a convergence process that takes place, and there's no reason to ever fall back to '1.0 land.' That's part of why Microsoft and all the closed-off proprietary software solutions are ultimately in trouble. The competition just keeps getting ever more and more better.

This is a serious problem for Windows in more than one way. The observer gets the feeling that Microsoft shitcans big parts of the code base and starts over with every 'version' of Windows. On another level, it seems like the only practical way to upgrade or improve an actual Windows install is to shitcan the big mess and start over from a bare install.

Software shouldn't be like that and the architecture of Operating Systems should certainly be designed better than that.

Windows 7 (1)

4D6963 (933028) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245138)

But will Microsoft really listen?

Somehow I'm pretty sure they've heeded the market's opinion but you won't see the consequences of it before Windows 7. Which makes me bet they won't wait 5 years to release that one.

Re:Windows 7 needs to learn from Apple 8 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245294)

which Steve Jobs regarded as a piece of crap so after a few years development OS X was released.

Perception = Reality? (5, Insightful)

TripMaster Monkey (862126) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245152)

Lance sez:

Perception is reality, and the perception is that Vista is a dud.


You know, Lance, many of us have first-hand experience with the "reality" of Vista. To argue that "perception is reality, and the perception is that Vista is a dud", in the same sentence as "there's nothing wrong with Vista" gives the impression that our perceptions are not based on reality (to put it mildly). To put it not so mildly, you're calling us either deluded, or liars. Is that really what you want to say, Lance?

Re:Perception = Reality? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245272)

Considering that's exactly what's going on, then probably, yes.

It's too bad not everyone succumbs to groupthink, huh.

Re:Perception = Reality? (4, Insightful)

idiotnot (302133) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245376)

Ah, that stupid catch phrase.....

I tend to ask people who utter it the following question: "If a tree falls in the woods, and there's nobody there to hear it, does it ever fail to make a sound?"

Reality exists despite perception. Vista isn't a great product. Vista isn't a horrible product, and I'd argue that it's far better than XP was when it was released. And that should be the real comparison. XP was a pile of excrement until SP1. Even then, it wasn't secure until SP2. Vista is stable and secure, although the performance needs help in some places. I've been running it since March, and the only problem I've had was with the stupid mp3/network thing.

PC Mags publisher pleading to Microsoft (2, Funny)

sjwest (948274) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245510)

Dear Large Advertsing client, I Lance do love your products, and i hate it when people say your product is rubbish. Apple wont spend as much, and that Penguin is mean.

Steve Please Please don't throw that a chair at me, but if you only made a few changes i could tell people that your products are the greatest yet and people who use Vista wont laugh at me like they are currently doing.

I think it is best that i call all users of Vista 'retarded' and my readership too since they do not see the amazing things i see in it. Thus I retain my journalistic integrity and you also win because i cannot never ever upset you.

Please send me a large cash sum, Love and kisses your bestest publisher friend in publishing.

Love Lance

But... (1, Redundant)

miknix (1047580) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245176)

Will it run Linux??

Re:But... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245536)

You're an idiot.

Single Shred Of Proof Of Vista Dudness (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245190)

I remember these types of articles back in the Win2k days but they didn't last as long. So far Vista looks like it is going through the exact same pattern as previous Microsoft OSs:

1) Wild predictions of doom on the Net before release

2) Smug declarations of the new OS flopping

3) Most consumers start getting the new OS as part of new computers

4) Businesses wait for the first service pack before making the leap

I've yet to see anyone give actual hard and verifiable numbers showing Vista being a marketplace dud anything more than the wishful thinking on the part of some people.

Re:Single Shred Of Proof Of Vista Dudness (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245244)

Computer makers have never switched back to offering earlier versions of Windows before.

Q.E.D.

Soooo. (4, Insightful)

samael (12612) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245192)

He wants them to throw away all the backward compatibility that all of the big corporate customers really care about.

And he wants them to sell a version that doesn't play music out of the box.

Is it me or are these both _really stupid_ ideas?

Re:Soooo. (4, Insightful)

gruntled (107194) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245448)

I agree with you that Microsoft's entire business model is based on backward compatibility (you can't count on upgrade sales if your users have to replace all their applications). But this model has locked Microsoft into a death spiral; their code must become increasingly complex, cumbersome, and buggy to be able to guarantee that users can still run that package written for 3.11 in some fashion. Plus, the only real way for Microsoft to address its security issues is to completely rewrite their OS code.

I think Microsoft could solve this conundrum by taking a page from Apple's playbook. To make the transition to a unix environment practical for its users, Apple designed a "transition system" that allowed applications for its old OS to run in a virturalized environment. Now, Apple has a completely redesigned, rock-solid, relatively secure OS, and they did it without abandoning their customer base.

BS (2, Insightful)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245196)

Perception is part of reality, but it's not all of it. Regardless of public perception, either Vista will, or it will not, have drivers for some particular video card. It will, or it will not, let you watch a HD movie over a non-HDCP video channel.

The problem with Vista isn't merely perception. It's the fact that in this case, the general public's perception of crappiness is a pretty good predictor of the reality that Vista is going to cause you, as an individual, lots of problems.

All this does not matter, Labels love it (4, Insightful)

arivanov (12034) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245208)

All this does not matter.

Labels love it and they are happy with it and its top-to-bottom DRM. This is what MSFT wanted, this is what it got. Now they will happily shovel it down our throats do we like it or not.

It a repeat of the sad story of Media Center Edition of Microcrapware. If you deliberately remove all functionality that users are interested in you should not expect something to sell. Pick up a MCE Remote and look. It is missing "My Videos", "My Music" and any hint of fetching existing content from the hard disk. Yep. Right, We peones are not supposed to have content that has not been approved and blessed for distribution by a label ya know. Only recorded content for ya. Dumb, idiotic, no-seller from day one, but labels are happy.

Microsoft is not doing pesky Apple (or Hauppage) things and offering the users what they actually want. That is good ya know.

Vista is the same, just on a bigger scale. An OS made to order for the labels. No wonder it is crap.

Re:All this does not matter, Labels love it (2, Insightful)

TripMaster Monkey (862126) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245256)

Now they will happily shovel it down our throats do we like it or not.
The more intolerable they make windows, the more attractive they make Apple & Linux.

Let them keep pumping rounds into their foot, I say.

Yeah, but... (1)

PinkyDead (862370) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245210)

...is Windows ready for the *nix yet?

What's the problem, anyway? (5, Insightful)

rbonine (245645) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245212)

I've been running Vista 64-bit for over a year. No bluescreens, no incompatible hardware, no problems with media files of any type - divx, xvid, mp3, wma, etc. I don't have any intention of going back to XP.

I wonder how many of the "Vista sucks" crows are trying to run it on outdated hardware. Vista does like a lot of memory - I wouldn't touch it without at least 1.5 GB - but this isn't 2001 any more. There should be an expectation that a modern OS will require more RAM and CPU than an OS released 7 years ago. (I have a Pentium D CPU, so I'm nowhere near state of the art, but I have 2 GB RAM).

Re:What's the problem, anyway? (1)

pandrijeczko (588093) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245436)

I wonder how many of the "Vista sucks" crows are trying to run it on outdated hardware.

Why do I need to update my hardware? To run Vista...

Why do I need Vista as opposed to Windows XP? I'm a gamer and it has DirectX 10.

How many games today are taking advantage of DirectX 10? A handful...

So please explain to me what other advantages Vista will give me before I dig into my pocket and upgrade hardware that already runs everything that I need it to just fine at the moment.

Re:What's the problem, anyway? (5, Insightful)

ledow (319597) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245502)

Stick it in a domain-networked environment (such as, ooh, every office in the world). Now try to use it without your hundreds of users moaning like hell because they can't get simple things done... like, e.g. log in locally once a PC is connected to a domain without having to know the PC's EXACT name. Being able to switch off all that UAC etc. junk and have it just work as XP did on a Windows network. Not have to upgrade every PC to something approaching twice what you could get away with on XP (so, that's a 25% upgrade cost per-PC, multiplied by the number of PC's, adding the hours worked by the technicians in upgrading it OR all-new PC's and the associated rebuild-etc. costs for doing it out-of-cycle). Invest in more disk space because every PC image now takes 15Gb of useless crap before you start compared to about 4-5 on XP - servers with large pre-build images love this one, you just multiplied the size of some of their largest single files by 3.

Now you have done all the "technical bits", wait and see how much legacy software that is mostly out of your control just stops working, or requires workarounds, or slows down (despite the computer upgrades). Watch your network graphs dip in correlation to the playing of music/video files on the PC's (although in a properly managed network, that shouldn't be a concern). Oh, and then you have the minor, obviously-we-should-be-there-by-now-anyway, of DVD-sized installation disks (and therefore network-shares, etc.), the fact that virtually everything you were running on XP runs with no difference or gets worse and that you have nothing really "new" to show for all that hard work and hassle. It's still an OS, it still just runs Word, it still just prints and saves on network shares. But for some reason you've had to change everything along the way to get to that point and the only thing you'll see difference is a dip in your client performance graphs. Oh, and to turn off all the whizzy new features to stop your users playing with them, you're really talking about waiting for Server 2008 with all the upgrade costs that involves.

It doesn't really matter what you use at home. You could use anything from MythTV to Windows Vista, Windows ME to MacOS. Nobody really cares so long as it gets their work done. What matters is what do you choose when you need to change. You try justifying Vista upgrades in a business environment, or to a little old granny who types up the minutes of the church council meetings. The problem is not "Why are people slating Vista?" but more "What does Vista actually DO that it didn't before for the average user?". 64-bit? Who cares. All that means is that drivers are harder to come by and some older stuff might not work. More than 4Gb RAM? So what? Doesn't crash any more than XP? Why did I have to move off XP then? UAC? Ha. The mental equivalent of "Yes to All" defeats that quite quickly.

Really, there's not much left. Home use, because it came with the computer? Fine. Use it. Home use upgrade? You can find a million reasons not to bother but we'd start with cost and what advantages it brings. Business use? Not until it's a de-facto standard. And there's not much chance of that happening while XP Pro disks and Vista->XP downgrade rights still exist.

Re:What's the problem, anyway? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245544)

Vista does like a lot of memory - I wouldn't touch it without at least 1.5 GB - but this isn't 2001 any more.
You obviously haven't seen the hardware they're selling Vista on these days, have you?

Re:What's the problem, anyway? (4, Insightful)

LehiNephi (695428) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245560)

There should be an expectation that a modern OS will require more RAM and CPU than an OS released 7 years ago.

Why should this be an expectation? I would expect that a modern OS would use less CPU and RAM (due to optimization) than one released several years ago, unless it is providing significantly improved functionality. I think this is why people are so down on Vista. It asks for much more, but only gives marginally more, than XP.

Meanwhile.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245218)

But will Microsoft really listen?


MS CEO : What are u saying? i can hear u from up here in mount Olympus. But thanks for your attention...Don't forget to buy Vista the best OS we pulled out of our as...development center

New Code (3, Funny)

A beautiful mind (821714) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245228)

Ulanoff gives four suggestions for a complete Vista makeover, like starting with new code(...)
Brilliant idea! I think it needs a catchy name though. I got it! They could name it after a breed of cattle to signify strength, like the Texas Longhorn.

Oh wait...

What the foxtrot is he going on about? (1)

sapphire wyvern (1153271) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245236)

Create a universal interface table for all applications that can be written to by current software manufacturers. It should be small and light, and when you run the new OS, it should automatically collect what it needs from the Microsoft site or the primary vendor site. It would put most of the processing work on the original application and leave the OS safe to act as traffic cop without getting bogged down.
Ok. Evidently I fail at operating system architecture, because I can't even parse this paragraph. What on earth is he going on about? It seems like automated package/dependency management... (collecting what it needs from vendor or Microsoft's sites) or maybe kernel/userspace divisions or control of access to hardware (allowing the OS to act as traffic cop). I don't get it. Someone help me out?

Another common mistake. (5, Insightful)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245238)

Lance Ulanoff, like most other people, make the mistake of thinking the people who fork over money to buy Vista are the customers of Microsoft. Sorry, Lance, that is not true. They are not. They have been vendor locked into MSFT "environment" and it would be impossible for them to get out without paying a lot. So them getting ticked off is not a major concern for MSFT.

On the other hand, if MSFT can show that it plug the "digital hole" and tell the media giants that "Windows is the delivery platform for digital content that cant be pirated" then all of them will provide content only in MSFT approved format, and they will achieve a vendor-lock in the media sphere similar to the vendor-lock they got in the corporate world. So the thinking goes in Redmond. So they add layers and layers of stuff, signed drivers, protected video path, protected audio path etc etc. MSFT is trying to sell vista to media companies. Not to the poor dolts who own/buy the PCs.

Some of his suggestions look quaint. "Start all over, and forget 100% backward compatibility!" he urges. Vista has already given up on compatibility. So much of old software, libraries and drivers don't work in Vista. Active X is dead. OpenGL support is being eviscerated to supplant it with MSFT owned rendering schema. Office2005 SP3 just announced it is going to stop importing Office97 files due to "security concerns". (Just when OpenOffice started rendering and saving Office97 format files better than MSFT itself. coincidence?). No. It is a myth that the backward compatibility makes MSFT code slow.

MSFT never had long term focus. It flits about from this latest thing to the next latest thing in a desultory manner. As long as the vendor-lock in Office product keeps pumping money into its coffers it does not have any real incentive to find the managers who manage the projects well and those who build empires under them. Right now the bee in the bonnet of MSFT is to get a lock on entertainment somehow. It compromises everything else for that goal. And that is why Vista sucks as a computing platform.

Re:Another common mistake. (1)

WeBMartians (558189) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245402)

Spot on! "CUSTOMERS of Microsoft" is the real (mis)perception and it is at the company itself. When MS deploys Windows, it does not perceive that deployment (either on a new machine or as a purchase of an upgrade) as the delivery of a tool but as the installation of a channel through which other sales may be made. That is the reason that there is so much cruft: "Lite" versions of various packages, not-quite-hidden means of automatically installing and starting unwanted software, the "Community" part of MSVS, DRM, the whole MSN annoyance.

Like anything new, these channels have unintended consequences: I am waiting for the uproar when the minimal PC for education starts soliciting children to sign up for MSN Adult.

Some of this is an attempt to do what Google made famous: offer something that is wanted/needed/required and pay for it through advertisements. In the case of Windows, the model is a bit more onerous in that there is an up-front fee (purchase price). So far, the model has worked - Microsoft's profits are quite healthy, thank you. However, there is absolutely no good will toward the company. Whether or not in the near future this will bite them is the question.

He he (1)

Fuzzypig (631915) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245286)

My old man is very stuck in his ways, has worshipped MS since year dot, but after 6 months on Vista on a new PC, drivers crashing and stuff failing he said stuff-it and went straight out and bought an Apple imac! Shocked the hell out of all us! He wanted real stability and safe phone supported software. I don't have time to attempt an Ubuntu brainwashing exercise, but when he went out and just bought an Apple and has stuck to it to the point of almost boxing up his PC ready for eBay, that says something about the average appliance-centric PC user getting fed up with MS and their BS.

They'll listen...... (1)

edwardpickman (965122) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245290)

but what they'll hear are it needs more features. They will try to speed it up and nix of of the most annoying bits but I'll be shocked if much of the bloat goes away. The most we can hope for is being able to more easily turn off unwanted features or if we are really lucky they'll be turned off by default. I don't see security changing much. A lot of the problems seem pretty entrenched into the OS. I'm guessing they'll spit out a less offensive version then try to address most of it in the following release. Given the development cycle on this dog I wouldn't hold my breath on any major fix any time soon. Most people will grin and bear it. We've all seen slow downs from one release to the next but this seems more bloat related than any of the past issues. Some were trying to support next gen processors or needing more horsepower but this feels like a bloat issue. A faster processor may not be a real fix. They may have cut loose DOS but there's still a lot of old support in Windows which is good and bad. I don't want more bells and whistles personally I want both 32 bit and 64 bit support like Mac has, better memory management, and to handle a realistic amount of ram. More than anything I want stable and I'd like to get back to NT stability where if a software happened to crash you didn't have to reboot and at times hard boot. I had to hard boot NT 351 once the whole time I used it. Rebooting is common on my Win 2000 and XP machines. Stable, faster, 32/64 bit support and maybe support 32 gig of ram or more. Is that too much to ask for?

No choices - VISTA, or get a Mac/Linux.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245300)

Just went to Best Fly and looked at laptops. All the new, shiny laptops come with Vista with no ready option to load XP. Sales staff indicated that there were no options for XP and all the new device drivers were VISTA only. This is what they are telling folks off the street! Of course, I know that you can probably go to HP or Gateway and get a "downgrade" at least on some models, but the BB sales staff were basically saying take it or leave it and not even mentioning the Mac display around the corner. I was surprised to see a new, large Mac display with laptops, large monitors, etc, but not the new Mac Air.


We can all complain but so long as Vista is being FORCED on the market there will be no options.


There is a saying that "Perception is Reality". Microsoft would be smart to learn that. They could turn Vista around and make it a win-win situation. Right now, it is only a win for them and not customers due to the massive uptake driven by forced adoption and forced EOL of XP drivers, etc. Due to the perception, more will consider Mac and some even Linux for desktops, but uptake will be slow.


Also, as far as stats on Vista vs ..., most of the dozens of computers I have purchased for desktop/development/Internet use came with Windows because either it was a good deal, it was all I could get at the time (like a laptop), or it was what my customer or corporate provided. Most of these have been wiped and had Linux loaded or, like the laptop, setup for dual boot and booted into Windows once every few months for things like Windows-only corporate training or to access media or video that only Windows could handle. These clearly would count as "windows" sales despite being a "Linux computer". However, my next purchased (not built or bare bones) will most likely be a Mac!

My Vista Ultimate runs fine. (1)

Xenobiotic (1230540) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245332)

I have a pretty good laptop, and everything runs smoothly. Only reason I use Vista is because I need to run Visual Studio for school. MS Should Open Source their Kernel(my guess). Open Source is the future IMO and if MS wants to survive in the OS market that is exactly what they should do. Like I said, my Vista runs fine, but I hate to know that 60%(or more) of the OS is just bloat.

The only thing good about Vista (1)

Techogeek (1148745) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245366)

In my opinion, the only thing good about Vista is the Aero interface. I love how Vista looks but I don't like how it works. I'll be sticking to XP until either another functionally equivelant version of Windows comes out or till I die from old age. I fear the latter will happen first.

They can't, they don't want to, it would kill them (2, Insightful)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245370)

"Do an Apple and start with new code. Forget about supporting every piece of hardware and software ever written. For people with major compatibility issues, keep Vista Premium around. You'll be surprised at how many people simply want to move forward."

MS is not Apple. Its software is used far more widely and people depend on it. MS already faces the nightmare of having to support several versions of its OS because if a critical security hole is found in an old windows version MS has to fix or face millions of hijacked PC's and another smear on its reputation.

Vista is in fact the move by MS to go to ONE base, no longer the 9X/NT seperation, one kernel to rule them all! They already broke plenty of legacy applications with it and getting lots of flak because of it. Yes, it might sound smart to just start over but MS really can't do it, because there would be a side effect. IF MS broke backwards support, then when people would finally be forced to move their legacy app from a now unsupported OS, they might CHOOSE a different OS!

By keeping old apps running on their latest OS, they make surepeople have no real incentive to switch their old apps to a different OS. See the recent IE7 and IE8 debate where companies who build their intranet apps for IE6 are faced with having to alter them. Why if you have to pay developer anyway, why not make the app browser neutral and avoid having to do the same for IE9? Force people to chance and they might chance in a direction you do not like.

Anyway, what did Apple really do? They switched their OS9 for one of the oldest OS'es still around? Apple did NOT write new code, they used existing code, existing ANCIENT code.

"Stop trying to make Windows all things to all people. Build it for three core tasks: e-mail, Web browsing, and document creation (which would cover 75 percent or more of the computing world's needs). Sell the OS for $19.99. Then build a dozen or so add-ons that users can bolt on to create the task-oriented OS they want: writing, music, video creation, art work, accounting and business, and so on."

Isn't this exactly what people been bitching about, that MS has to many different versions of its OS? It is already hard enough to get people to cough up once for software, constant upgrades are really going to upset them. It is already a support nightmare because what user really knows which OS version they run let alone what upgrades they installed? BAD IDEA!

"Create a universal interface table for all applications that can be written to by current software manufacturers. It should be small and light, and when you run the new OS, it should automatically collect what it needs from the Microsoft site or the primary vendor site. It would put most of the processing work on the original application and leave the OS safe to act as traffic cop without getting bogged down.

Does this guy even know MS? MS doesn't want third party developers to have an easy time, MS is well known for introducing unpublished API's that its own apps use to make them seem better then third party apps. This idea would totally go against MS business practices. Give a third party an even chance, and why, people might just use that product instead of your own.

"Stop tooting your own horn!"

MS lives by the fact that to a lot of people Computers == Microsoft. It has to toot its own horn very hard to make sure it drowns out anyone who might claim otherwise. They also toot a lot about what their NEXT piece of software is going to do, hoping nobody will be able to hear the spoil sports who point out the software that already does what MS is saying MIGHT happen.

Check up on the history of MS vs OS/2. MS not tooting its own horn would run counter to the way the company has competed.

As for Apple, show me an apple product that does NOT display its logo rather clearly. Everyone knows what an iPod looks like. Apple is just better at making their tooting seem subtle.

On the whole I think this guy is a MS fanboy who is jealous because Apple fanboys get all the boys (lets be honest here). MS isn't Apple and can't be. Same as Apple can't be MS. Stop dreaming that all companies should be the same.

Vista is a turd, in some ways it reminds me of the MMO Vanguard. An intresting idea, lots of promises, followed by a bugged launch with lots of promised features missing and now that you look at it a year later with lots of patches and more powerfull hardware, you see that for a year old game/OS it has aged incredibly badly and that the idea's and promises still aren't a reality.

But don't worry, Windows 7 will be different.

MS releases roughly go like this. They promise heaven, they deliver hell, patch it so it becames merely purgetory and then we linger there hoping the next release will deliver us all.

And here is the killer. It works. As long as MS is raking in billions in sales, why on earth should they chance? It would be like telling some old rockband is to old to tour and nobody wants to hear them anymore etc etc when fans are killing each other for tickets that sold out in minutes.

Apple Koolaid (2, Interesting)

webword (82711) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245374)

Well, I got so sick of my HP laptop with Vista that I decided to buy a MacBook. Programs weren't running, random pop up windows, security issues, setting up my home wireless, sudden performance drops, UI feature creep, sidebar failures, and more.

I'm serious, it was really bad and with the HP bloatware, the laptop was a nightmare. So, I bought a Mac and I have to tell you, it's been great. There are some minor issues but they really are minor. I'm now drinking the Koolaid.

Re:Apple Koolaid (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245404)

more likely you're a fanboi trolling. there isn't much bloatware on an hp at all. unless you consider a few shortcuts for isps bloatware. it just sounds like whining to me.

and i can attest to the fact that if you were having endless pop ups and security issues it probably means that you're an amateur who probably has no business with a pc.

A Vista Do-Over? (1)

W33B (901545) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245382)

Windows cloverfield
"unleash the beast"

©weeb inc. 2008

It's pretty dang nice, actually. (4, Interesting)

Bilby Baggins (1107981) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245392)

I started using Vista Home Premium when I bought my new Toshiba laptop, about 5 months ago. At first I was going to just install XP on the system, as I was quite apprehensive about Vista's compatibility issues with much of the software I need to use day to day. But, as an IT contractor, I knew I would have to start supporting Vista sooner or later, so I took the plunge.

I also expected that the first thing I would do is turn off all of Vista's "pretty" including Aero, and make it look as much as 9x/2k as possible. That's what I'd done with XP (Blue...ugh!) and I figured Microsoft's latest UI-gloss would be the same. Based on what the media had told me, I thought the DRM would be horribly intrusive, the security ever-present and annoying, but useless.


Ehm... whoops! I was a bit surprised. Vista runs quite well on this new but definitely not top-end laptop. It's a bit slow to fall into sleep mode or wake up, but not bad considering the 2GB of ram it has to deal with every time I close the lid. Bootup isn't too slow, and although shutdown is a bit laggy, I shut the system down rarely so that's not much of an issue.

As for DRM... what DRM? I have MP3 files, DivX, MPEG-video, watch DVDs and listen to (and rip) CDs quite often, and have not had it bother me yet. I don't use the frankly horrific Windows Media Player or it's associated store, nor do I use iTunes. Using either of those will of course result in DRM and associated DRM-related issues, but that's YOUR problem, not mine. My CD-quality ripped MP3 files have no DRM, thank you very much.

The security screen that darkens the window when you are installing, uninstalling, updating, changing, or even just copying files into the Program Files directory is a bit overused, but the implementation is great- as far as I can tell, it does a system "stop" and holds everything until you make a decision, possibly stopping malware from auto-installing as easily as in the past. I wish I could select when I want it to happen more specifically then "on" or "off" but maybe in a future patch that'll happen. "Run as Administrator" is a bit vexing in that you can't log in as "Administrator" (AKA root) but you can make shortcuts automatically run specific programs as administrator (Netstumbler requires this as it needs low-level access to the wireless NIC).

The wireless and network connection screens take a little getting used to, as they are new since XP, but the ease-of-use and controllability are still present, and I do prefer it a great deal over Apple's over-simplified system.

Oh, and Aero? Shiney! I actually rather enjoy the transparencies, and most of the transitions are quite unobtrusive. The new start menu is nice in some ways, although I wish it responded faster to opening folders, which is perhaps more an issue with the laptops slow drive speed. Making the task bar 2 level tall works very well, and the start icon expands slightly to fill it's area better.

My major annoyances have mostly to do with the aformentioned wireless connectivity, and with IE7. For some reason, when I load media-rich websites sometimes that window will crash. This doesn't happen on any of the other Vista or XP systems I run IE7 on, so it may be a driver issue. The wireless has problems connecting to open APs sometimes, and for some vague reason doesn't like the occaisonal brand of AP (SonicWall seems to be the worst). I think both of these issues will be fixed shortly, and neither are hugely problematic for me.

Overall, I rather like Vista, for all of it's shortcomings. I wish I had it installed on a powerful-enough system to play games on, though. DirectX 10, anyone? I AM looking forward to Windows 7 though, if Microsoft pulls off most of what it wants to do for that OS, it should be quite the system.

Re:It's pretty dang nice, actually. (1)

dave420 (699308) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245556)

I've been using Vista for months, on an average Dell computer, and it's fine. It's fast, runs everything I want, doesn't crash, and gives me no problems. I don't know where all this hatred comes from.

Interface Bloat? (1)

MECC (8478) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245394)

One wonders what Dave Cutler thinks [wikiquote.org] of all the Vista bloat.

Really nothing wrong? (1)

unbug (1188963) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245410)

This guy says there is nothing wrong with Vista and then goes on to explain what he thinks is wrong with it? "Too complex", "burdened by things people don't need", "slow", "in-your-face" UAC. Doesn't sound like "nothing" to me.

But that's what they did! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245414)

Ulanoff gives four suggestions for a complete Vista makeover, like starting with new code...

According to Microsoft, that is exactly what they did. The biggest reason we were givebn for Vista's delays was a complete rewrite of some of the most critical components. Microsoft has recently made a big deal out of completely rewriting the TCP/IP stack (coincidentally, one of the biggest bitches about Vista is network performance).

So what does Mr. Ulanoff expect? After 5 years and so much rewrite went into the current release of Vista, does he really expect that another rewrite would be any better?

Ulanoff himself said it best: ...but is this the operating system we all want?"

NO

Vista is really not that bad. (1)

BountyX (1227176) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245426)

I use Mac OSX 10.4, Linux Fedora (on my laptop), and Windows Vista Business on my main desktop machine. From my personal experience, yes Vista does come bloated and you have to trim it down. This does not make it a BAD operating system. Vista is a great operating system, I have Opera, Visual Studio, and Outlook running and my machine is currently using 456 mb of memory. My Mac runs at about 520 mb memory and my Linux runs 382 mb memory. All on similar machines...this OS talk is just politics and people supporting their own preference. If you want compare services running, applications running, OS imprint, benchmarks, you will find out that all the systems are identical. If youre too lazy to optimize Vista, use a minimalist distro of Linux. If you prefer a complete streamlined system and conformity with eye candy, use Mac. If you really think about it, Windows is the perfect balance between conformity and configuration. On Mac, everything follows a streamlined look, streamlined interface, and strict apple standards. On windows, there is a standard, but people sometimes follow them and sometimes not. On Linux, you get the ultimate configuration, so you pretty much define your own standard. This is a matter of preference. Execution speeds are more or less the same. I really do not notice any difference between any of the systems after they are optimizedexcept my EFI enabled hackintosh has better benchmarks than my apple machine in every area except thread spawning.lol

Listened too much? (2, Insightful)

ZeroExistenZ (721849) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245444)

I remember the cries "OH no! Windows sux because of running as an administrator. That's why we have virii!". Now we're stuck with annoying popups. If I want to perform a "ipconfig /release", I have to create a shortcut to cmd, right-click and "run as Administrator" to be able to do that task.

"Oh no! Windows users are too stupid to protect themselves from hackers and spyware!", so now we have by default this "spyware remover", running on the background, doing most of the time nothing but hogging up memory.

"But they're so stupid, they install everything in their email attachments! YOu cannot trust the internets!", so now I have to "allow" whenever I click a program installation.

After all the criticism, most "features implemented", you now say "yeah, that's cool. But it was better before, when I had all these remarks."

I dislike working with Vista, it's counterproductive, when it should be more productive, and makes me feel less in control of what's going on in my PC; if something hangs, I haven't gotten the slightest clue. "Which obscure process now is behaving badly? Just when I reboot I get a "check for a sollution online", so halfly sell my soul to MS raping my bandwidth sending the dumpfiles to get a "no currently known sollution.".

The seem to have listened to all this whining, and those whining the hardest seem to have been the most hardcore PC user; "oh no, I don't like to spend all this time in managing my PC! Do it for me!" But when they do "ANTI TRUST!" or whatever they come up with. Pounding their chest to distinguish themselves from the "illiterate computer users who need to be protected for themselves on the internets", yet ending up with the same sollution being frustrated they've gotten what they asked for.

In the end, it's still Microsoft. Their implementations will still suck, they'll still have talented people -wherever you can see that or not- who are motivated in what they do (I cannot believe a programmer or project manager is thinking how to fuck you over best, or make the most money. They are motivated to "make a difference", just like many people inhere.)

And yes, most of their products suck, I don't like their marketting strategy. That doesn't change the fact there are geeks working there.

Vista was marketted as "the built from scratch", but it also required to exceed the expectations of a "next generation OS". You can't start over with "DOS Aero" and expect people to wait another 10 years for Web 2.0-like GUI.

Stop whining, if you want perfect software, play Duke Nukem Forever. It's been perfect for years now :)
Thank god for opensource.

Will MS Listen? (3, Interesting)

darkvizier (703808) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245462)

Of course MS isn't going to listen to anyone asking them to rewrite an OS from scratch, when they just spent nearly a decade doing so. That's absurd. Now some suckers have participated and provided feedback for their public beta... cough, I mean *release*, they're going to tweak things here and there, maybe rewrite some major problem areas, strip out some of the bloat, and release their next OS.

Anyone else notice where their programming languages are going? Extensibility, re-usability, modularity, and *really* good library support... we're finally seeing an effective implementation of what object oriented programming claimed to be all along. I would not be surprised then, to see that they've taken the same approach with their operating system design.

Their next OS will be better, and though we might complain, most of us will end up with it running on our machines. And you know, after a few years we might actually start to like it. That's my prediction.

Re:Will MS Listen? (1)

ledow (319597) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245546)

I've got a rusty old bicycle to sell. Bargain at only £400. You know, after a few years you might actually start to like riding it. That's my prediction. Wanna buy it?

In their pocket... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245472)

Hmm. Is Microsoft's biggest fanboy aiming for a shred of credibility with this article?

first thoughts (2, Interesting)

psbrogna (611644) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245474)

My first thought on seeing the title (without reading the post or article) was "I'm sure the Edsel team would have liked a do-over also." After reading the wikipedia article on Edsel & the parent Vista post, I wonder if there are parallels that could be drawn between the failures (design flaws, misalignment with market needs, timing, perception/buzz, etc). Both projects were very long, complex & represented significant investments with disappointing payoffs.

New code??? (2, Insightful)

trailerparkcassanova (469342) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245476)

If someone told me I needed "new code" I would be sure I was listening to an idiot. What "new code" would you like? Sheesh......

Boy are we glad... (1)

Loibisch (964797) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245498)

Boy are we glad that there's nothing wrong with Vista a complete do-over won't fix!

Am I getting his notion right?

Microsoft Preacher (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245532)

His whole diatribe, while attempting to appear critical of Microsoft, actually seems to push a Microsoft agenda if recent patent applications/awards are any indication.

I don't remember the patent number, but it was reported here on Slashdot that Microsoft has filed (or has been awarded?) a patent that describes a method for selling a stripped-down operating system with an add-on capability to extend the features. Add-on modules included luxury items like a network connection, perhaps at a higher cost for a faster connection, printer connections, faster operating system speed, etc. You would pay an annual license fee for each feature, and the system would rever to reduced functionality mode if you didn't fork over the cash.

But the base OS would be cheap. Or free.

Maybe MinWin is the beginnings of this. The GUI costs extra.

-M

I had to put a Vista machine on a LAN yesterday (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22245588)

I had to put a Vista laptop on an the wired LAN yesterday while I swapped out a wireless access point.

It took me longer to find the correct dialog than it took me to do everything else - including joining Mac/linux machines and the vista laptop to the new wireless network. I was tempted to try ipconfig, even though I've never used it to bring up an interface on a windows box -- it's more intuitive than Vista's butt-ugly GUI.

It has to be said, there's something SPECIAL about Vista...

Reality is Perception (4, Insightful)

hey! (33014) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245600)

Quantifying perception -- that's where things get squirrely. True, gratuitous changes can give bad first impressions, but Vista's more serious problems do nothing to dispel those impressions.

Take a statement like "Vista is slow." There is no single thing that is "speed" when it comes to operating systems. Vista isn't
"slow" in the sense of failing to do many units of computational work per unit time on average. It's "slow" in the sense that you can't rely upon it to respond to input in a consistent amount of time. Serious work has a rhythm to it; you can adapt yourself to a tool that is slow, but effective, but you can't to a tool that doesn't behave in exactly the same way every single time you use it. Using Vista is like dancing with a partner who has a lot of fancy moves, but can't hear the music.

Most of Vista's faults you can adapt to, like it's unnecessarily complicated and cluttered file dialog box. But you can't adjust to the fact that it really needs far more memory than its claimed minimum if you don't want to deal with a user interface that freezes every so often because of swapping. I know swapping is the case because I'm writing this on a laptop with 2GB of RAM that is almost unbearable to use without 2GB of ReadyBoost flash. I'm running pretty much the same workload as was acceptable under 1GB on XP or Linux but as I type this, I can see the access light on the flash drive almost continually blinking as the OS goes for cached pages.

Microsoft probably could make Vista a viable platform if they simply made 4GB the minimum required RAM. Or if they could make it possible to use Vista with the rated minimum RAM requirements. I had an open mind, because people always complain when Microsoft changes things, excepting maybe Windows 2000 where they were ready to try anything after the stability nightmare that was NT 4. And maybe Windows 7 will be that kind of improvement over Vista. But for now I can say I started with an expectation that Vista would be at least OK once I got to use it, but after almost a year I have to say it's the first operating system I've ever used whose performance is a serious problem for my productivity. These are greatly alleviated by ReadyBoost, but even so it's a relief to boot into Linux and not feel like I'm constantly fighting the operating system. In fact, I've begun to boot into Linux and do my work in an XP virtual machine, which feels faster than running the same user tasks directly on Vista.

Vista works for me, so far (1)

ionymous (1216224) | more than 6 years ago | (#22245618)

3 weeks ago I bought a Dell M1530 laptop with Vista home edition.
I was concerned at first because of all the negatives I'd been hearing about Vista.

Again... I've only had it for 3 weeks, but I can't seem to find any big problems.
I can run Firefox fine. I can run HalfLife fine. BZFlag works fine.
It can see my network fine. UltraVNC viewer works fine.

I guess I will start seeing the problems later?
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