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Danish ISP Tele2 Challenges Pirate Bay Blockade

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the arr-they'll-never-take-the-rum dept.

Censorship 129

krasmussen writes "After Monday's injunction on Danish ISP Tele2 to block access to The Pirate Bay, the company has now decided to take the case further in court. 'We do not like being put in a role where we as ISP have to regulate people's freedom of speech' says Nicholai Pfeiffer, regulatory manager i Telenor, which owns Tele2. However, because the current ruling against Tele2 still stands, the customers are not going to regain access to The Pirate Bay at the moment."

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Possible interim solution: (3, Funny)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325766)

Tele2 can post a list of legal open proxies on their website, and instructions on how to set one up? They can still comply with the court order, but meanwhile stick by their principles.

/P

Re:Possible interim solution: (5, Informative)

BSAtHome (455370) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325820)

The Pirate Bay already beat them to it: http://thejesperbay.org/ [thejesperbay.org]
The name is a parody on the chairman of the IFPI...

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

thegux (892222) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325898)

Would anyone be able to post an English translation of that page?

English Translation (5, Informative)

andersh (229403) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326282)

The Fogderetten (court) of Fredriksberg decided on Tuesday the 29/1 that Danish Internet provider Tele 2 must block their customers from accessing The Pirate Bay.

While the reasoning and contents of the verdict has not reached the public yet, the consequences are already clear: Danish Internet users have been censored and cannot visit the world's largest bittorrent tracker - The Pirate Bay. With this Denmark joins the company of Turkey and China, the two and only other countries in the world that blocks their citizens from accessing the site.

The case was brought to the court by the IFPI who had previously successfully used the same strategy with regards to the Russian music site AllofMP3. The IFPI is fighting a desperate struggle to keep control over how music is distributed, and The Pirate Bay has been a thorn in their eye for a long time.

On this page you can learn how to circumvent the block. We do not want to let the recording industry decide what information we as Internet users have access to.

P.S. I did not use a lot of time on this translation, it might have some typos and errors. Also I'm Norwegian and not Danish so please excuse any mistakes.

Danish Hypocrisy (0, Flamebait)

Orion Blastar (457579) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326536)

They won't censor the Mohamed Cartoons that Muslims find offensive, but they'll go out of their way to censor a BitTorrent web site?

They support free speech when it mocks religion, but they don't support free speech when it comes to BitTorrent. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Don't give me that "they only block it because it violates copyright laws" because on The Pirate Bay there is open source materials and files in the public domain and shareware as well that are 100% legal. They are called legal torrents. Legal torrents are much more than just Linux ISOs, many music artists release open source OGG and MP3 files for free as well under an open source license. Michael David Crawford [geometricvisions.com] is one such musical artist that has had his works silenced by fascist laws and actions against BitTorrent sites. In fact he even lists many other music artists just like him who also share their music for free on BitTorrent [goingware.com] and that is the real reason that recording companies are shutting down BitTorrent web sites, to silence the competition and sabotage their efforts to release free and alternative music by independent open source musical artists and force everyone to buy commercial CDs instead.

What Government Intervention? (5, Insightful)

andersh (229403) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326716)

They won't censor the Mohamed Cartoons that Muslims find offensive, but they'll go out of their way to censor a BitTorrent web site?

What rubbish! The Danish government has no responsibility for what the press does in a free country. As long as the press is not in violation of Danish law they're free to publish what they want.

And if you didn't read the facts it was the IFPI that brought the [Pirate Bay] case to court. That's not the Danish government either - so you are way out of line.

Re:What Government Intervention? (3, Interesting)

Hatta (162192) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327714)

What rubbish! The Danish government has no responsibility for what the press does in a free country. As long as the press is not in violation of Danish law they're free to publish what they want.

Replace "press" with "search engine" in that and it applies quite well the Pirate Bay.

And if you didn't read the facts it was the IFPI that brought the [Pirate Bay] case to court. That's not the Danish government either

The court isn't the Danish government?

- so you are way out of line.

No, your government is being hypocritical. But really, all governments are hypocritical. This is a relatively small inconsistancy on the scale of government hypocrisy.

Still Not The Government (1)

andersh (229403) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327968)

Replace "press" with "search engine" in that and it applies quite well the Pirate Bay.

Yes, it does, doesn't it? And the government didn't act in either case.

And there have been cases in Scandinavia where even just linking has been enough to close you down. I would not rule it out even if you claim to be "just" a search engine.

The court isn't the Danish government?

Did you intentionally read that the wrong way? Because the sentence clearly says the IFPI is not a part of the Danish government. The courts are part of the Danish state, but they don't act on their own. The party that brought the case to the court is who's responsible for the issue.

No, your government is being hypocritical

Sorry, I am Norwegian, it's not my government.

Legal Concepts and Legality (1, Insightful)

andersh (229403) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326796)

Don't give me that "they only block it because it violates copyright laws" because on The Pirate Bay there is open source materials and files in the public domain

You are totally and utterly wrong. If the majority of files on the Pirate Bay were legal it would perhaps be a different matter. But the vast majority of files on The Pirate Bay are illegal and violate copyright laws in many or most countries. So the few legal torrents available don't change things at all.

If you sell pirated and legal CDs out of the trunk of your car - you are still guilty of selling illegal copies.

Re:Legal Concepts and Legality (2, Insightful)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327044)

If you sell pirated and legal CDs out of the trunk of your car - you are still guilty of selling illegal copies.

...would I be equally guilty if I merely posted a user-modifiable map of where these trunk-selling bootleggers are located?

/P

Guilty As Charged (1)

andersh (229403) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327132)

...would I be equally guilty if I merely posted a user-modifiable map of where these trunk-selling bootleggers are located?

Well, since you asked, yes, you would probably be guilty here in my country, Norway.

Danish and Norwegian law is quite similar, and we also happen to be subjects of the same EU laws.

A few years ago we had a case against a simple linking site called napster.no. No files were ever stored on the server. Just simple links to other sites where the material was. Not only did they find the person behind it guilty - it went all the way to the Supreme Court.

The point however was that regardless of what your views are on The Pirate Bay if the Danish courts rule that they are violating copyright laws (or other laws) they have the right to take away access to the site. Also did I mention that both in Denmark and Norway we have a government prescribed child pornography censorship and filtering system? All the major ISPs volunteered to join it.

Re:Guilty As Charged (3, Insightful)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327234)

Well, since you asked, yes, you would probably be guilty here in my country, Norway.

In that case, when do we see Google banned (specifically, Google cache)? And the Wayback Machine [archive.org] while we're at it?

I'm not saying it to pick a fight, but it stands to reason that Google's cache and archive.org can be modified easily enough by anyone with the right know-how (basically, you just modify the site that either one is caching). Will the IFPI demand their removal next?

The whole Child Porn thing is IMHO a red herring. Child Pornography is direct evidence of a criminal act (namely, the sexual abuse of a minor), and blocking such things is done in deference to the victims, not because it's liable to bring civil charges. TPB, even if all it ever did was IP violation, contains zero evidence of any crime (IP and copyright violations are civil acts, not criminal ones - it only becomes criminal when you try to sell the copies).

In this case, we're talking about a court bending over backwards to satisfy the civil demands of a cartel, and in the process do two things:

1) create bad precedents, and

2) perform collateral blockage (I think the legal term is "estoppel"?) against legitimate distributors who use/rely on that particular torrent tracker.

/P

Re:Guilty As Charged (3, Interesting)

andersh (229403) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327544)

In that case, when do we see Google banned (specifically, Google cache)?

I did say probably because it would have to proved in a court of law. Not everything is as clear cut as you or I would like it. Even if I am a lawyer.

blocking such things is done in deference to the victims

I only mentioned it to give you some insight into the way our countries work. It's certainly not done out of deference - it's simply censorship regardless. No court ever ruled the sites on the list are illegal. "First they came for..."

IP and copyright violations are civil acts, not criminal ones

Sorry, that's only in the US. European law can be very different to what you are accustomed to.

TPB, even if all it ever did was IP violation, contains zero evidence of any crime

Again that's not really true according to the example I just told you about (napster.no). Even linking is considering illegal here now. Not that I personally agree with it. They have yet to challenge access to The Pirate Bay here in Norway, but they have a law firm working on it.

create bad precedents

Nope, that's not the way the Scandinavian Civil Law system works. The way precedents work in the Anglo-American Common Law system is not applicable here. It's not really a significant ruling, it's not even a High Court ruling. It can easily be overruled and interpreted away by the higher courts.

Re:Guilty As Charged (1)

shark72 (702619) | more than 6 years ago | (#22329900)

"I'm not saying it to pick a fight, but it stands to reason that Google's cache and archive.org can be modified easily enough by anyone with the right know-how (basically, you just modify the site that either one is caching). Will the IFPI demand their removal next?"

Probably not. Despite the braying of the "it's just lke Goooooooooogle!" idiots, intent and scope are likely big factors European-style law, just as they are in the US. This goes for crimes as well as torts -- in Europe, juast as in the US, your fate might be quite different if you accidentally run down a pedestrian in your car, vs. plotting to kill them with a handgun. The law tends to have these sorts of tests to avoid the slippery-sloping of the examples you've given.

"TPB, even if all it ever did was IP violation, contains zero evidence of any crime (IP and copyright violations are civil acts, not criminal ones - it only becomes criminal when you try to sell the copies)."

That's not the case in the USA, for what it's worth. All you have to do in the US is distribute more than $1,000 worth of work in three months -- no sales required. If TPB were being tried in the US, it would be for facilitating copyright infringement, or contributory infringement, or something similar. I don't know if the same test applies for civil vs. criminal in these cases. I believe it's moot, as it would be in the best interests of the rightsholders to keep filing lawsuits a la MGM v. Grokster.

And, of course, in Sweden it might be completely different.

"create bad precedents"

Huh? What precedent? Do you mean the Google slippery slope? Don't worry about this: the courts understand the difference between Google and a site set up to facilitate, promote and encourage piracy.

"perform collateral blockage (I think the legal term is "estoppel"?) against legitimate distributors who use/rely on that particular torrent tracker."

That's not what estoppel is generally understood as meaning. I think the closest concept that applies to the situation you're describing is "tortuous interference," but you wouldn't have a case. The ten-second solution is "just use another tracker" and if you can come up with that instantly, then so would the defendant.

Re: !Guilty As Charged (2, Interesting)

moxley (895517) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327614)

Google does the same thing. Would they be guilty?

Maybe the Pirate Bay needs to find a way to include a whole bunch of other stuff in their indexes (witha checkbox to remove those results on queried results if the user would like) - then any similar laws wouldn't be able to affect them without affecting Google and every other search engine - and who's going to put an onerous burden on them?

Re: !Guilty As Charged (1)

shark72 (702619) | more than 6 years ago | (#22329986)

"Maybe the Pirate Bay needs to find a way to include a whole bunch of other stuff in their indexes (witha checkbox to remove those results on queried results if the user would like) - then any similar laws wouldn't be able to affect them without affecting Google and every other search engine - and who's going to put an onerous burden on them?"

Such a tactic would depend on finding a court that didn't understand the difference between Google and a site set up for the purpose of promoting, facilitating and encouraging piracy. I know that we all like to joke about stupid judges and stupid prosecutors, but you need to take a pragmatic view here: if you can easily understand the difference, expect the court to understand, as well.

The original Napster tried the "we're just a search engine" defense. Grokster went the safe-harbor route as well. The courts didn't buy it in either case, yet this bit of history is apparently unknown to many Slashdotters. If TPB were operating in the US, it would be a legal slam dunk. It's safe to be cynical here and expect the laws of the EU nations to follow.

Re: !Guilty As Charged (1)

jhol13 (1087781) | more than 6 years ago | (#22330254)

Google does the same thing.
Actually, no, they do not do the same thing. They do not directly and on purpose have links to infringing material. Whether this is legally big enough difference is another matter ...

Oh, btw, Fredrik Neij, Gottfrid Svartholm, Peter Sunde and Carl Lundstrom has gotten charge of about $200'000 in fines and of two years jail. The prosecutor is asking for extremely harsh punishment, the reasoning is that TPB has big advertisement income.

The charge is "conspiracy and help for copyright infringement" (i know, my legalese-english is not very good).

Re: !Guilty As Charged (1)

Pofy (471469) | more than 6 years ago | (#22331036)

>They do not directly and on purpose have links to infringing material.

Ehh, what do you mean by "directly"? Why do you claim it is directly in one case but not the other? How do you get to the "on purpose"? In one case the site is automatically going arround looking for files and index them if they find them (one have to actually take specific actions to op-out). In the other case, the ones with the files has to tell the site to index it. (Yes I know one can go to google and tell them as well.) The only thing ending up there is what others put there. That is the main difference.

>Oh, btw, Fredrik Neij, Gottfrid Svartholm, Peter Sunde and Carl Lundstrom has
>gotten charge of about $200'000 in fines and of two years jail.

No, you can't get both a fine and jail in Sweden, you get one or the other. The $200,000 is a pacyback of what the prosecutor claim is the sum they gained on the crime. The "two year in jail" is also just the maximum possible listed sentence for the crime. It is not what they have been "charged" with. Since the trial has not started, the prosecutor has actually not said anything about what sentence he will ask from the court. It can be jail (of varying time) but it can also be a fine. We don't know yet.

>The prosecutor is asking for extremely harsh punishment, the reasoning is that
>TPB has big advertisement income.

So no, he is not asking for anything extreme at all. He hasn't even asked anything at all. The sum of money is what he claims is their gain (I know it is not the proper word but can't figure out a better one) which he claim he can prove. it is not a punishment or sentence though.

> The prosecutor is asking for extremely harsh punishment, the reasoning is that TPB has big advertisement income.

Re:Guilty As Charged (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22327660)

Hi buddy!

Just to clarify. The Danish government has nothing to do with the Danish childporn filter. That is an initiative by the Danish ISPs and Red Barnet.

I'm confident that Tele 2 will win this one in court. One would only have to read 11a in the law about copyright, which clearly states that ISPs are neutral even if the content is "illegal".

As a Dane, let me say... (2, Interesting)

KlaymenDK (713149) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326806)

As a Dane, let me say that this is stupid (the ruling, not your generalization). "We" won't go out of our way to censor BitTorrent; in fact many of us will go out of our way to *not* censor it. I bet that Jesper has no deeper understanding of what BitTorrent is than "it's that thing the pirates use".

I also believed that the papers (and, more recently, Wikipedia) should be able to show pictures of religious symbols. If the "infidels" (their words) can't take it and start burning embassies, who's being narrowminded then?

Re:Danish Hypocrisy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22327030)

They only block it because
1. politicians don't know their technology, and
2. the media isn't there to pressure/help them, like they were with the cartoons.

Re:English Translation (1)

Husgaard (858362) | more than 6 years ago | (#22328042)

"Fogedretten" is the correct danish name for this special kind of court. It is a special kind of court used to get preliminary injunctions fast, and is considered a level lower than the court of first instance (called Byretten in danish).

And the court decision is basically a preliminary injunction. When Fogedretten considers the arguments of plaintiffs in such a case, they need no proof, only that the arguments are shown to be probable. Such a decision is almost always followed later by a real court case.

TFA states that Tele2 is a major ISP in Denmark. But Tele2 only has a 4 percent market share [yahoo.com] , so it is quite small.

This is not the first case of this type raised by IFPI against danish ISPs. It is the third case, and all have been raised against Tele2. None of these cases have been followed by a real court case. Instead all the ISPs have started doing the filtering too, although no court has told them to do so. Nobody really knows why. But a few days ago I was told by a reliable source that in the first of these cases (about blocking allofmp3.com) IFPI paid Tele2 to accept to continue blocking and not to go further with the case. I guess the reason Tele2 is willing to fight now is that they have realized that this will never end unless they start fighting back.

So why is such a decision possible at all? The copyright fundamentalists have over the years developed some very twisted case law here in Denmark, mostly in cases where their opposition lacked expertise in copyright law.

One twisted thing established in case law is that a link on the web is considered a public performance of what is linked to, done by the person doing the link. So if I link to a newspaper article on the web, I do a public performance of the article I link to, which is illegal without permission. (So now you know why Google news doesn't exist in Denmark.) This is a bit simplified, as case law has evolved to the point where legally there are about a dozen different kinds of links, depending on how an where you link, even though they all are simple hypertext references.

Another twisted thing established in case law is that all content traveling through the net of an ISP is considered copied by the ISP. The rationale is that when IP packets are forwarded by a router they are copied from the incoming interface to the outgoing interface. And here in Denmark it is illegal to copy any part of a copyright work, no matter how small.

Local legal experts say that if this decision holds up, IFPI could easily get Google blocked in Denmark if they wanted.

Re:English Translation (1)

Auldclootie (1131129) | more than 6 years ago | (#22329594)

Pirate Bay is not blocked in China.

Re:Possible interim solution: (2, Insightful)

jim.hansson (1181963) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325922)

wonder what will thepiratebay will do when the ISP is ordered to block the IP:s, insteed of only fu*king up the DNS?

Re:Possible interim solution: (4, Insightful)

meringuoid (568297) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326208)

wonder what will thepiratebay will do when the ISP is ordered to block the IP:s, insteed of only fu*king up the DNS?

Get another IP? It's not as if it's hard to do; spammers seem to manage. Let the Danish courts play the same game of whack-a-mole that mail admins do.

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

jim.hansson (1181963) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326298)

do you mean that the pirate bay should start using a botnet? that could be so funny and troublesome at the same time :-)

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

emj (15659) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326616)

Actually I would think that this is the next step for P2P using a botnet to spread their index.

No Get Out Of Jail Free Card (2, Insightful)

andersh (229403) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326892)

Let the Danish courts play the same game of whack-a-mole that mail admins do

I'm sorry but you do realize the courts never bother with actual IP adresses? They just issue a general directive that requires the ISP to block access regardless of what it takes or if it's even possible.

The courts don't have to bother with such mundane issues as the time and money it will take to block a moving target. They will just fine the ISP if they don't take enough action in the eyes of the court. The target can move, the ISP will suffer increased costs - but the users will still find their site.

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

Yvanhoe (564877) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327038)

Or open a .onion server. This is a server only accessible through the EFF-sponsored network Tor.

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

jopsen (885607) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326566)

They aren't as far as I remember from earlier the discussions the Danish childpornography filter is also implemented as a DNS only filter...

But if they do block the IPs it's just a matter of getting a dynmic IP (Joke)... But multiple IPs would do, they just change every day... no problem, just make sure the old IPs still redirect, so users of cached DNS resolution isn't left out...

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

KublaiKhan (522918) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325840)

Nice idea, but I can see a couple problems with it--namely that they could then be considered to be 'aiding and abetting' as it were (and thus potentially held liable) and also the number of tech support calls such a project would generate might be inconveniencing to the way they run their business.

Nice thought, though.

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326052)

The tech support load I didn't think of... and you're right ab't that.

OTOH, they can deflect the 'aiding and abetting' charge by saying it has nothing to do with TPB. Simply post a news/press release about how it's part of a super-secret networking efficiency R&D project that Tele2 has going (or somesuch)... as long as the proxies are legit and legally open (e.g. no compromised machines), IMHO it would be fairly litigation-proof.

Now if anyone were to build a toolbar(?) that any ol' user could install and automatically seek and use legit open proxies upon hitting a single on-off button, then stupid rulings like this would be impossible.

/P

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

compro01 (777531) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326198)

xBbrowser (formerly torpark) has such functionality to switch between regular access and tor routing.

Re:Possible interim solution: (-1, Troll)

brit74 (831798) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326452)

And by "stick by their principles", you mean "facilitate the theft of other people's hard work?"

Re:Possible interim solution: (-1, Troll)

brit74 (831798) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326860)

Ha ha. Can't take a little bit of criticism without labelling me a troll? Sorry, I forgot I'm in the upside-down world of slashdot, where theft is praised, and people who disagree are buried by a mob of freeloading slackers. Long live getting something for nothing and shafting the creator!

Re:Possible interim solution: (-1, Flamebait)

cliffski (65094) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326914)

Indeed, welcome to slashdot. I love the way people talk about this as "censorship". These people need to read a dictionary. TPB is not being blocked because it has the writings of Karl Marx, Osama Bin Laden or Adolf Hitler. There is no political motive here. None of the games, movies, TV programs or music at TPB is being blocked, but the theft of that material is.
If my local bookshop locks its doors at night and requires payment in return for the books during the day, is that censorship?
But hey, this is slashdot, all content creators are 'THE EVIL RIAA' and thus worse than terrorists :(

Re:Possible interim solution: (2, Insightful)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327018)

Perhaps you could tell us which exact laws TPB has broken? In their jurisdiction, they have broken none.

Sorta blasts your argument apart right there, doesn't it?

/P

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

uniquename72 (1169497) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327198)

TPB is not being blocked because it has the writings of Karl Marx, Osama Bin Laden or Adolf Hitler.
No one is saying that TPB doesn't make stealing music easier. But at what point does that make all internet searching illegal?
Fact is, I can use Google to find any info available on TPB. You must also support the closing of Google then, no?

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

cliffski (65094) | more than 6 years ago | (#22331454)

a long discredited and silly argument. Google indexes everything without prejudice, and does not give out instructions deliberately on where to host copyrighted material. TPB does, and its a question of intent, in legal terms.
To compare TPB with google is frankly stupid.

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326984)

Well, FWIW, it wasn't me who modded ye.

It isn't that TPB is some great big illegal operation (it is perfectly legal within the framework of their jurisdiction), nor that they act as a torrent tracker (they are, for torrents regardless of content*).

The big deal is that there is a great big precedent where information is blocked due to content.

We often praise people who find ways to break past China and Saudi Arabia's forms of Internet censorship... why all the sudden do you cheer the same censorship in an EU member state?

Do you realize that all I would need to do to shut down a torrent tracker in Denmark now is to post a link or four leading to some IFPI-owned content, then pack off a C&D notice? I have no kick against someone wanting to control stuff that they have rights to, but the route they took to do so is appalling, to say the least. I don't poison a noisy neighborhood dog to get him quiet, I go to the dog's owner and see about getting him to keep his animal quiet. The IFPI did the equivalent of setting out buckets of antifreeze in this analogy... and it is IMHO wrong.

/P

* this does include a rather large amount of links leading to legal/legit content, such as: WoW patches, Linux distros/updates, FOSS binaries, artist-permitted multimedia distribution, and various other items of a perfectly IP-respecting nature).

Re:Possible interim solution: (1)

brit74 (831798) | more than 6 years ago | (#22329002)

Well, FWIW, it wasn't me who modded ye.

(nod) Yes, I understand that you can't mod and post within the same article.

The big deal is that there is a great big precedent where information is blocked due to content.

Isn't that what a C&D letter does? When you shut down child-porn sites, aren't you doing it on the basis of content?

We often praise people who find ways to break past China and Saudi Arabia's forms of Internet censorship... why all the sudden do you cheer the same censorship in an EU member state?

That's because we have ideas about what should and shouldn't be allowed in society. When people break past China's or Saudi Arabia's ridiculous, oppressive laws, I cheer them because they are fighting against a corrupt system. Stealing digital content from their creators is not "fighting a corrupt system"; it's just "getting stuff without paying for it". You label it all under one term: "censorship", and I simply don't think all these different situations can be subsumed under one word and treated uniformly.

Let me put it this way: Western governments will put you in jail for theft. Saudi Arabia will put you in jail for preaching any religion other than Islam. Do you argue: "you support the people who Saudi Arabia puts in jail, but you condemn the people the United States puts in jail" - as if I'm guilty of some double-standard? Do you conclude that "putting people in jail is wrong"? No.

"Net censorship" which prevents theft of digital content (music, movies, software, etc, etc) is different than net censorship that is used to hide government crimes from their people. Just as putting someone in jail for believing the wrong religion is different than putting someone in jail for theft.

I don't poison a noisy neighborhood dog to get him quiet

Nobody's dead.

I go to the dog's owner and see about getting him to keep his animal quiet

And you think piratebay is just going to say, "Oh, I'm sorry. I won't let that happen again." Of course not. I recently read an interview with the creator of piratebay. What's his view on copyright? He said that people claim piratebay hates copyright, but that wasn't true at all - he says that piratebay simply doesn't care about copyright. He flat-out saying he doesn't care if copyrighted material is on there against the author's wishes. You know what else piratebay is working on? An anonymous system. Where's your cease and desist letter going now? Piratebay is aiding and abetting criminals - and they are doing whatever they can to aid them even more in the future.

Re:Possible interim solution: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22330166)

I'd mod you insightful, but I don't have that much karma to blow.

Less Than Honorable (1)

milsoRgen (1016505) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325778)

Although I'm sure the ISP is more about protecting their bottom line as opposed to protecting freedom of speech. I'm still often left in awe at some of the actions European citizens and governments take to protect users rights as opposed to rolling over at the beck and call of the entertainment history or government here in the US. Kudos to them!

Re:Less Than Honorable (1)

milsoRgen (1016505) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325796)

the one time i don't use preview... history=industry

Re:Less Than Honorable (4, Funny)

Lithdren (605362) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325886)

ERROR: Unable to load page. www.ThePirateBay.com (Arrr) has been blocked by court injunction for your own protection. We are unable to provide you access to this wonderfull service at criminally low prices!

If you object to this injunction, please write your state representative to have the law changed at:

Jack "The price is right!" Representation
12345 Pork Barrel Depot
Washington, DC 20004


If only they'd handle it this way, in the US of A.

start the arms race to defeat the firewalls (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22325782)

this should spur development of new tools to evade firewalls and stop
the advance of filtering of our packets. going to court to stop these
types of problems will only end in the users circumventing the fix time
and time again.

Re:start the arms race to defeat the firewalls (1)

jim.hansson (1181963) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325978)

maybe we should really thank IFPI for pushing the development of application that hides what the user is doing.

here's idea: mask the traffic as VOIP, that way it will get high priority also :-o

ah the wonders of proxies (4, Funny)

Coraon (1080675) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325786)

ah http://www.prospector.cz/Free-Internet-services/Web-proxy/ [prospector.cz] , without you I would be torrent-less...that is of course if I lived there. Fortunately I live in Canada the Tortuga of the internet, where the torrents flow like water and our government is still afraid of its people.

Re:ah the wonders of proxies (1)

compro01 (777531) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326280)

Fortunately I live in Canada the Tortuga of the internet, where the torrents flow like water and our government is still afraid of its people.
unless you use Rogers or Bell C, who both seem to be taking a dislike to torrents, and encrypted traffic too.

though fortunately, Bell is required by CRTC regs to lease out their lines to other providers for a fixed fee, so it's a near-certainty that anyone wanting to get away from them can find an alternate ISP that doesn't do such things.

Re:ah the wonders of proxies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22326870)

Fortunately I live in Canada the Tortuga of the internet, where the torrents flow like water and our government is still afraid of its people.
Really? [theregister.co.uk]

Re:ah the wonders of proxies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22327934)

Says the person from the country that shut down demonoid...

All things must end riaa and the rest just haven't learned that yet...

Whoa (1)

rakuen (1230808) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325790)

An ISP that isn't Anti-P2P? Does anyone have a contact in hell to see what's going on down there? I guess that leaves a bit of hope for the future...

Re:Whoa (4, Funny)

veganboyjosh (896761) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325986)

They did say duke nuke'em's coming...

Re:Whoa (1)

Markspark (969445) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326152)

P2P is definately what drove the broadband into every Swedes home (almost every swede then, but still)
and without P2P, what would your average joe do on the internet? (except view webpages, but that he could do of a modem)

Re:Whoa (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22326238)

haven't you heard
porn, the broadband is for porn

Re:Whoa (1)

robertjw (728654) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326620)

Haven't you heard?
P2P is for porn.

Re:Whoa (2, Informative)

alx5000 (896642) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326194)

Fairly common in Europe (or at least Spain), where there's a lot of competition among ISP's (some places are still subject to some monopoly, but they're an over(under?)whelming minority). Not being able to use P2P reduces users' satisfaction, and leads to saying "byebye" and choosing another carrier.

Re:Whoa (1)

Smordnys s'regrepsA (1160895) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326384)

An ISP that isn't Anti-P2P? Does anyone have a contact in hell to see what's going on down there? I guess that leaves a bit of hope for the future...

Maybe they had too many call center reps quit after the shit storm of callers complaining about their breaking the internet?

At least they put up a fight (1)

guruevi (827432) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325798)

Unlike AT&T or some other American counterparts which apparently give the government access to listen and block with a smile.

I hope this ban gets lifted. The RIAA and their cronies have done too much damage to the economy already. Personally, I haven't bought any RIAA-affiliated music since 2002 and I have a lot of songs, go to Indiefeed or something similar for real 'free' music and then sponsor those artists.

Dykes (2, Funny)

mbarron (673170) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325818)

Too bad the network admin, just can't pull his finger out of the firewall.

Re:Dykes (2, Informative)

digithed (445564) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325856)

It's Denmark not Holland.

Re:Dykes (2, Funny)

R2.0 (532027) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326002)

I think he was referring to the sexual orientation of the admins.

Challenges? (1)

krilid (1171645) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325866)

The article mentions that a meeting has been held but no decision on whether to appeal the court order.

Pirates Bay is finished (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22325882)

Until the whack a mole pops up elsewhere. What an exercise in futility. "Introducing the new Cisco Pandoras Box Lock Router."

This is not packet filtering, only a DNS block (5, Informative)

Gnavpot (708731) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325914)

Just to clear up the confusion in some of the comments:
The court did not order Tele2 to do any packet filtering. Tele2 will only have to remove piratebay.org from their DNS servers.

So no need for proxies or firewall circumvention tools this time.

Re:This is not packet filtering, only a DNS block (1)

Bryansix (761547) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326078)

Really?! So now all the users have to do is use one of the billions of tools on the net to find the IP address of a domain and their in? Well if they use IIS and host headers then it's a little more complicated. Gotta edit that hosts file. Other then that though, they are in. Courts are so stupid!

Better solution (4, Informative)

77Punker (673758) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326110)

Just use a different DNS server. I started using OpenDNS a while ago because the DNS servers at my school were quite unreliable.

Re:Better solution (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327088)

That is not a better solution. A better solution is that the DNS is NOT blocked. What you propose is a workaround, nit a solution.

In fact it is WORSE as it agrees with the fact that the ISP must be filtering.

Also as a workaround, you can add "83.140.176.146 thepriratebay.org" to your hosts file.

Re:This is not packet filtering, only a DNS block (1, Redundant)

karmatic (776420) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326148)

Actually, they just recommend using OpenDNS (see The Jesperbay [thejesperbay.org] , a Pirate Bay website).

Re:This is not packet filtering, only a DNS block (1)

CodeBuster (516420) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326328)

Which their clients could easily dodge by using an alternative DNS server OR they could simply type in the IP address for the pirate bay instead of "thepiratebay.org".

Re:This is not packet filtering, only a DNS block (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 6 years ago | (#22328526)

That would be so hilarious if it just wasn't such a pathetic "solution" by them.

What are they going to do next? Keep asking ISP's to adjust their DNS records? Where to draw the line? The Pirate Bay has, after all, still not been ruled down by Swedish court, and Denmark AFAIK uses the same kind of copyright laws due to also being members of the EU. So correct me if I'm wrong, but these should be pretty harmonized as for those laws.

Bold move (5, Insightful)

eebra82 (907996) | more than 6 years ago | (#22325924)

Fighting this new law is not only important to the people of Denmark, but also to the rest of the European Union. European politicians tend to agree on many issues and it takes only one country to influence the rest.

Re:Bold move (1)

Valdrax (32670) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326082)

Unfortunately, that very fact means that it's going to be one hell of a fight for Tele2 and the Pirate Bay considering that most EU countries are heading towards stronger copyright restrictions against P2P sharing.

Re:Bold move (1)

xenobyte (446878) | more than 6 years ago | (#22331502)

It's a very nessesary fight! - It is about the right of one industry to restrict the freedom of expression in general just because it's possible, convinient and of great symbolic value. The core issue is that IFPI should spend their money on making people choose to pay for their music and movies instead of downloading them for free. Procecuting your potential customers is beyond stupidity and only works due to monopolitic laws surrounding intellectual property.

Why does people break the law and download mosic and movies? - Well, that question isn't hard to answer and IFPI is sure to know the answer: Price and availability. People mostly download new movies because it isn't available in other forms locally or in a convinient form (for home use). People discuss new movies globally but the release of them are hardly ever global; rather it's usually region by region, format by format - a very outdated method. Changing this would eliminate many more downloads than a thousand lawsuits. Lowering the prices to the bargain bin level from the start would also make more willing and able to afford DVDs. The production cost of a DVD is still so low that there's a profit even at bargain bin level. Sure it might also mean that the stars need to stop getting obscene paychecks but that's a detail. If you're truly interested in the acting art, the pay shouldn't need to be more than what you need to live on (including savings for out-of-work periods).

Re:Bold move (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22326478)

They are only vollowing orders!

Parallel Universe? (3, Informative)

andersh (229403) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327062)

European politicians tend to agree on many issues and it takes only one country to influence the rest.

Excuse me, but what Parallel Universe do you live in? Is it nice there? Because one thing is for sure here: European politicians do not agree on many things at all. I wonder what made you write that? There's not a single issue that doesn't come across differently in every European country. Take the War in Iraq, the EU CAP, the EU itself, religion and religious issues such as abortion, ethnic discrimination, immigration, European integration, NATO organisation and so on.

Fighting this new law is not only important to the people of Denmark, but also to the rest of the European Union

No, it's not important to the people of Europe. Any verdicts in Denmark will have practically zero value outside. If it was decided upon in the Court of First Instance perhaps. This case will not change anything in Europe in general.

Re:Parallel Universe? (1)

eebra82 (907996) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327224)

European politicians do not agree on many things at all. I wonder what made you write that? There's not a single issue that doesn't come across differently in every European country. Take the War in Iraq, the EU CAP, the EU itself, religion and religious issues such as abortion, ethnic discrimination, immigration, European integration, NATO organisation and so on.
You are not looking at it from the right angle. I am obviously not saying that the entire EU ministry is agreeing on everything. My point is that some countries in Europe are looking at internet regulations (Germany, Spain, etc) and Denmark will surely not be of great help from this point of view since they've clearly taken the first step of controlling the internet. So if Denmark does this, Germany watches that, it will have a good reason to follow because it certainly looks better to imitate Denmark rather than China and Turkey alone.

Last but not least, just because there are indifferences, you must also admit that the reason the EU exists is because there are in fact a lot of agreements within the EU. Otherwise, it wouldn't exist at all. And the whole point of the union is to agree more.
No, it's not important to the people of Europe. Any verdicts in Denmark will have practically zero value outside. If it was decided upon in the Court of First Instance perhaps. This case will not change anything in Europe in general
It is ignorant of you to believe that a country cannot have an effect on the rest of the EU. Prior to this case, Europe had no cases of internet censorship (except for child pornography, etc). Not only will it cause debates, but also concerns over privacy in other countries if governments with similar thoughts reflect on the ideas of a pioneering Denmark.

Also, I am fluent in French, German and Spanish. Please tell me how I just spotted articles on this topic in major news papers from all three countries?

Crossborder Politics (1)

andersh (229403) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327730)

Denmark... since they've clearly taken the first step of controlling the internet

You think this is the first such action? What do you call taking down Oink? Or Tv-links.co.uk? That happened in the UK a few months ago by the way. Or Sweden attacking ThePirateBay? This is not a new or innovative form of policy.

You are not looking at it from the right angle. I am obviously not saying that the entire EU ministry is agreeing on everything.

I think it's you who's not looking at it from the right angle. Europe and the EU is like the Eurovision Song Contest - everyone agrees within the regional subgroups, but are at odds with the rest of Europe.

Europe had no cases of internet censorship (except for child pornography, etc)

Sorry, but that's not true. In all the different countries in Europe there have been any number of cases. I especially find a ruling from my own country very interesting. Napster.no was convicted of simply linking to external sites where illegal MP3 files were stored. Or how about the French ruling on Nazi memorabilia on Ebay? There are loads of other cases.

It is ignorant of you to believe that a country cannot have an effect on the rest of the EU

No, I am not saying that people cannot be affected by reading about it. But it has no effect on the legal systems of the different countries. The EU has not harmonized all the different legal systems and courts of Europe. We are still too far away from each other for it to easily cross borders. It's split along historical lines from the Northern European states, Roman Law to Common Law in the UK. There's a huge variety that does not accept foreign verdicts easily. Politicians on the other hand are receptive.

the reason the EU exists is because there are in fact a lot of agreements within the EU.

The reason the EU exists is a well known historical fact. A forced marriage. Now, you might agree on a few things - yet it has proven increasingly difficult to agree on new and important issues such as the Constitution. A few trade laws are not as hard to pass. How about the proposed North African-Mediterranean area Sarkozy wants? Or allowing Turkey into the fold? A European President?

I am actually quite in favor of a federal European Union - but at the moment it's just a dream. You/we are really not that united yet.

Re:Crossborder Politics (1)

jhol13 (1087781) | more than 6 years ago | (#22330604)

Napster.no was convicted [...]
What on Earth has that anything to do with EU?

Re:Parallel Universe? (1)

Njovich (553857) | more than 6 years ago | (#22331494)

Excuse me, but what Parallel Universe do you live in? Is it nice there? Because one thing is for sure here: European politicians do not agree on many things at all. I wonder what made you write that? There's not a single issue that doesn't come across differently in every European country. Take the War in Iraq, the EU CAP, the EU itself, religion and religious issues such as abortion, ethnic discrimination, immigration, European integration, NATO organisation and so on.

Well, I think the GP is right. You'll find that both in the European Commission, and the Parliament, a single country can push an issue very far. On many issues, other countries will see advantages in helping the directive (or objection to it) forward. Also, don't forget there are worlds of difference between being roughly neutral and actively working against a directive. Of course, there is generally no consensus, and there will be disagreement about the colour of the shed and all. The issues you mention are more difficult than that, but for other things this often goes.

If a country like Denmark is strongly for or against killing copyright violations, this could strongly affect the outcome of directives. Right now the Danish government seems opposed to it to the extend of blocking the Pirate Bay from DNS. Just getting them to rethink the validity of that reasoning within the frames of their own laws can mean a lot. A more neutral stance could potentially give a lot more protection for pirates EU-wide.

Re:Bold move (1)

Mathness (145187) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327728)

Fighting this new law is not only important to the people of Denmark, but also to the rest of the European Union.
What new law is that? The ruling is based on well know Danish (copyright) law, and Danish law hardly extend to other countries. Unless it is advanced into an EU court it will probably not have any significant effect in other countries.

Just to clarify (1)

Tukz (664339) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326004)

This isnt't the first time Tele2 does this.
Doing the entire allofmp3.com episode, Tele2 was the first to filter out allofmp3.com, and the rest soon followed.

Tele2 was picked for that reason, some speculate. Tele2 does it, everyone else follows out of fear.
Now Tele2 just won't stand for it, since Pirate Bay never got convicted like allofmp3.com did.

I think it's a good move on Tele2 to reject this first hand. There is no conviction against Pirate Bay. Pirate Bay has not been convicted of breaking the law, so Tele2 should NOT be forced to deny access to it.

On that note, it's only a DNS block, not any kind of content filtering.
Use a different DNS server or static route and it will circumvent it.

(opendns.org ftw)

If it were me... (1)

TheSpengo (1148351) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326186)

I would put a link on my website titled "want to know why you can't connect to thepiratebay.org?" that links to a brief explanation of the situation as well as a link to a proxy and a description of how to use it. :)

Ohmygod (1)

tehniobium (1042240) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326224)

For the first time ever I'm actually proud of being from denmark...way to go tele2!

Re:Ohmygod (1)

KlaymenDK (713149) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326930)

For the first time ever I'm actually proud of being from Denmark.
For the first time ever? Wow, man. There is tons of other stuff to be proud of. The vikings, if you consider them Danish, were quite apt shipbuilders, sailors and traders. Then there's the Rosetta stone. In more modern times, Danish companies make world-leading noise measurement apparatus and hearing aids; the Danish institute of technology (DTU) provides unique magnetism detectors for the Ørsted satellite, as well as (the only?) star-positioning camera technology.

Oh, and Carlsberg!

Re:Ohmygod (1)

DanJ_UK (980165) | more than 6 years ago | (#22328280)

Carlsberg do indeed make the best adverts in the world, Heineken all the way though.

Re:Ohmygod (1)

EvilIdler (21087) | more than 6 years ago | (#22329142)

Oh, and Carlsberg!
I think you would have people's attention with just that.

Good Neighbors (1)

andersh (229403) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326970)

For the first time ever I'm actually proud of being from denmark...way to go tele2!

Kjære nabo, is this when I tell you that Tele2 in Denmark [tele2.com] is a division of Norwegian Telenor? ;)

Re:Good Neighbors (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22327538)

Kjære nabo, is this when I tell you that Tele2 in Denmark [tele2.com] is a division of Norwegian Telenor? ;)

kära granne, is this when I tell you norway is only a part of the swedish/norway union, ohh wait did they disolve the union in 1905, f**k

Come on! It was a joke! (1)

andersh (229403) | more than 6 years ago | (#22327856)

kära granne, is this when I tell you norway is only a part of the swedish/norway union, ohh wait did they disolve the union in 1905, f**k

Come on, it was just a joke! :)

Of course, the fact that the company is Norwegian owned doesn't change much, but the management does what it's owners want. So I suppose Telenor might want Tele2 Denmark to appeal the verdict to sell more. Or it could be the management decided on their own they had to fight it so they don't loose customers. All the same, I was just joking.

And before that short period of the Swedish-Norwegian Union we spent 400-500 years with Denmark :D

This thing ain't over yet (1)

JosefAssad (1138611) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326236)

The IFPI's gameplan seems to be to establish precedent with a smaller ISP, in this case Tele2.

The other ISPs in the Danish market though do not seem to be willing to play along [politiken.dk] (yes, I just linked to a Danish article. No, I'm not translating the WHOLE THING!):

The top part goes something like:

ISPs Ignore Bailiff's Ban on thepiratebay.org - Frustrated ISPs are continuing to hold the door to thepiratebay.org open, even if the bailiffs court has asked Tele2 to close down access.

So, what with most of the ISPs digging their heels in it doesn't look quite so cut and dried yet.

Tele2 (1)

eitreach (1211194) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326290)

Glad to see they didn't try to bribe anyone. Two kroner just doesn't buy as much for them as it does for the average danish consumer.

Top Ten (1)

SeaFox (739806) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326336)

'We do not like being put in a role where we as ISP have to regulate people's freedom of speech'

Oh, I saw this episode of Lettermen! I believe the list was titled "Things AT&T will never say".

American ISP (1)

Nonillion (266505) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326398)

You certainly wouldn't see this in an American ISP. They're too busy bending over to the government yelling, Thank You Sir May I Have Another!

Priceless! (1)

SplatMan_DK (1035528) | more than 6 years ago | (#22326472)

I am no pirate myself ... but ...

Buying a .ORG domain in Denmark: 20 USD

Buying a .ORG domain name resembling BOTH "The Pirate Bay" and the Marketing Manager of IFPI in Denmark, "Jesper Bay": PRICELESS!

(see http://thejesperbay.org/ [thejesperbay.org] )

:-D

- Jesper

Official /. stance (1)

billcopc (196330) | more than 6 years ago | (#22329400)

I'm new here (riiiiiiight!). What's the official /. stance on TPB ? Pro or Con ?

On one hand, what they're doing is technically illegal, and they're fully aware of it. On the other hand, they're doing it for a very good reason: to test, provoke and popularize the concept of free speech and of course, to bring grand attention to the evils of modern copyright law (Thank^H^H^H^H^HFUCK YOU Sonny Bono!)

Personally, I like The Piraty Bay's attitude and I support their cause. The fact that they have a real life political party that's got quite a bit of traction (for a niche party), that just makes it even more respectable to my eyes. In today's reality of court abuses and rampant corruption, an outfit like Piratbyran is a much needed counterbalance to corporate terrorism.

Re:Official /. stance (1)

HybridJeff (717521) | more than 6 years ago | (#22330126)

"On one hand, what they're doing is technically llegal." I corrected your typo for you.

You guys just dont get it.... (2, Interesting)

FlyingGuy (989135) | more than 6 years ago | (#22330744)

This is only the opening Salvo... This thing is far from over.

Even Sweden will eventually fold to the political pressure, just like "secret" Swiss bank accounts eventually became not so secret. There is such a huge amount of money riding on this that eventually its going to happen, it just is, it is inevitable.

I mean enjoy the ride as long as you can, but like any other carnival ride, it eventually ends. Thats just the way it is. You or I might not like it, but thats long and short of it.

You misunderstand net resilience (1)

Xest (935314) | more than 6 years ago | (#22331512)

When enough standard torrents like this are shut down and enough people are affected people will instead start using encrypted, anonymous services which aren't so hard to shut down.

Yes P2P as we know it now will likely end up being dealt a heavy blow, but then people will move on to something else. This simply isn't a war that can be won without cutting access to entire types of data stream at the ISP simultaneously destroying lots of valid business applications at the same time.

It's futile to try and fight this without also damaging citizens rights, legitimate business applications and combined hence the entire economy of that particular country.

There is indeed a lot of money being poured into fighting piracy, and enough for governments to accept the bribes and so forth right now however there is a tipping point at which the damage to citizens rights and the economy will make a particular goverment so unpopular they wont be able to take bribes from anyone. The cost of fighting the war on piracy will be so much higher than actually winning it would ever be so no, you're wrong, it's simply not a fight that can ever be win. It's very similar to Vietnam and Iraq - winning battles is easy with their resources, but winning the war is impossible without somehow winning over the hearts and minds of the people, that's something you can't ever achieve whilst simultaneously suing them and eroding their rights.

The recording/movie industries have shown they're incapable of changing their ways, as such they can never win this war.

^_^ (1)

Skal Tura (595728) | more than 6 years ago | (#22331384)

Hurray for Tele2 to standup!

Now, i wonder do they sell anything i could as a foreigner buy so they get my support ^^

No censorship ty! :) It takes a lot of guts for a business to fight for this, every spend on the courts is away from their profitability directly, while the benefits in profitability are indirect and cannot be calculated, meanwhile, a good-faith-do-no-evil CEO recognizes something like this has priceless value, and it's a must to fight against censorship.

Hurray for Tele2! :)
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