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Mozilla Opens Thunderbird Email Subsidiary

kdawson posted more than 6 years ago | from the need-a-cute-mascot dept.

Mozilla 186

alphadogg is one of several readers to note the opening of the Mozilla Foundation's new subsidiary, Mozilla Messaging, charged with developing the free, open source Thunderbird email software. Mozilla Messaging will initially focus on Thunderbird 3, which aims at improving several aspects of the software, including integrated calendaring and better search. ZDNet UK's coverage leads with the interest the new organization has in developing instant-messaging software.

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186 comments

I don't care. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22480768)

I'm sorry, I simply don't give a shit.

Exchange Server? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22480784)

Will the calendar work with exchange?

Re:Exchange Server? (3, Insightful)

Sorthum (123064) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481350)

Lord I hope so. Right now we're approaching it from the other end; using Zimbra to support Outlook users. I'd love to offer a complete groupware solution that worked cross-platform...

Re:Exchange Server? (4, Informative)

EvilRyry (1025309) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481584)

With the openchange project working on libmapi, I could certainly see this as a possibility. The SOAP calls that were previously relied by Evolution and Apple Mail on are far too slow and unstable.

I am convinced that this question is irrelevant. (4, Interesting)

an.echte.trilingue (1063180) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482288)

A lot of people use the example of Exchange Server as a reason that open source will not displace MS in the business world. They like to point out that no open source program interfaces properly with its calendaring function, damning all these clients to hobbyist hell. It has become an obsession.

However, I think that in trying to emulate outlook in this respect, open source projects such as thunderbird have lost the innovative edge that other OSS projects have. I am convinced that Exchange Server is as good as dead and google docs is going to kill it. Google docs does everything that Exchange Server does, and it is in many respects better. It is innovative (labeling, for example), and most importantly, you don't need a client of any kind to use it. Just a web browser and there is no client side configuration at all. From an IT side, it is certainly easier to deploy and manage than Exchange server. Google already offers domain accounts for free, I think at least in part to prevent small and growing businesses from getting hooked on Exchange in the first place.

I bet that in the near future google is going to start selling the software that runs google docs for clients to run on their own servers. I would also bet that they will develop Exchange Server migration tools soon.

However, there is no reason why an open source project could not have done this. In the arena of website content management systems, open source projects such as TYPO3, Joomla! and phpwebsite are the leaders because instead of trying to emulate Microsoft Frontpage, they came up with good, innovative solutions oriented toward real people. Similarly, SugarCRM and phpBMS are leaders in small to medium business client management systems for the same reason: instead of emulating Microsoft Access, they are innovative, powerful, easily managed web-based solutions. None of these projects are less ambitious than google docs.

In getting so hung up on the question you just posed, we are going to see yet another generation of Outlook clones that will never be as good as Outlook because the open source developers cannot take the Exchange Server apart like Outlook developers can. We should stop asking that question and start asking what we can do to make that question irrelevant.

Hmmm (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22480806)

Let's just hope it takes a more sober, considered and ethical approach to life than its wayward cousin [shelleytherepublican.com]... the whole Mozilla project seems to be a little too 'Yurpeen [shelleytherepublican.com]' for my tastes.

The real story (5, Informative)

savala (874118) | more than 6 years ago | (#22480818)

The CEO of this new Mozilla Messaging company writes the most insightful blog post containing the most hopeful look at the future of messaging [ascher.ca] and how Thunderbird could make a difference there... and slashdot links to mostly useless informationweek and zdnet stories?? Bleh...

David Ascher really gives me hope for where things are going - but he can't do it alone. And he can't get the people who'd help to do so if he's being ignored!

always look on the bright side (1)

stoolpigeon (454276) | more than 6 years ago | (#22480886)

of life.
 
He'll still get attention - and you get bucket loads of slashdot karma. It's a win ... something.

Re:The real story (3, Insightful)

Otter (3800) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481260)

The CEO of this new Mozilla Messaging company writes the most insightful blog post containing the most hopeful look at the future of messaging ...

Out of curiosity, what do you think is so insightful about it? Ascher seems enthusiastic, and a pleasant guy to work for, but I didn't see any specific novel ideas in there, just a lot of "Email is important...room for improvement...add useful features...listen to our users" boilerplate.

It also struck me as odd that a decade after Netscape stuck email into the web browser and few years after Firefox stripped it back out, he's proposing to put it back in!

Re:The real story (1)

palegray.net (1195047) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482696)

It also struck me as odd that a decade after Netscape stuck email into the web browser and few years after Firefox stripped it back out, he's proposing to put it back in!
Opera [opera.com] seems to like this approach. I haven't used their product in ages, though.

Re:The real story (3, Insightful)

fm6 (162816) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481290)

That's all very interesting, and a lot of Ascher's ideas sound really good. But before they start converting Thunderbird into the Collaboration Platform for the 21st Century[TM], I wish they'd spend a little time polishing up its rough edges. Nothing major, just irritating stuff like there not being keyboard shortcuts for all the editing commands.

Another thing: does Mozilla spinning off Thunderbird mean that it will get even a smaller share of their revenue for R&D? Tbird has not exactly been growing and improving by leaps and bound, and the Mozilla foundation seems to have little interest in it. Spinning it off into a separate organization sounds suspiciously like they're just plain cutting it loose. And if the new TBird org can't find it's own funding, the mail client's future is anything but bright.

Re:The real story (4, Interesting)

savala (874118) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481538)

Polishing the current Thunderbird is (at least from the impression I get) actually one of the main goals for Thunderbird 3. It's not all that exciting to talk about, so it only got the "a set of other user interface improvements" line in davida's article, but it's definitely known that making the program just a little bit better in many small ways (my personal pet peeve on this plane is not being able to search across all accounts) would make it hugely more useful for many people, and just good enough for a whole bunch of new potential users.

And no, spinning Mozilla Messaging off actually means it has the chance to finally get the attention it deserves. The Mozilla Corporation has been totally focussed on Firefox (since that's their big cashcow, and it's hard to do two things well), and the Mozilla Foundation is mostly just an oversight and broad planning organization, so a separate organization was needed to let email stand on its own. The Mozilla Foundation hopes that Mozilla Messaging will find its own source of income fairly soon, but they're heavily investing in it right now, and I suspect that if Mozilla Messaging is successful in furthering the goals from the Mozilla Manifesto [mozilla.org], but without attracting a lot of income of its own, that funding will just keep on coming (bankrolled by the money Firefox earns). That's pure speculation on my part, and obviously MoFo won't say anything like that, because that would remove much of the incentive for Mozilla Messaging to find its own sources of funding - but it'd make sense.

Where's the beef? (1)

swb (14022) | more than 6 years ago | (#22483222)

I went trolling Mozilla.Com for Thunderbird development info (roadmaps, release date projections) recently and found it startlingly bare in terms of Thunderbird related material.

Basic functionality works pretty well, but the editor is braindead, especially when it comes to switching back and forth between HTML/Plain Text edits.

And there needs to be some more options/tuning of the IMAP engine. First off, 5 connections as the default is broken, and I'd like to see IMAP locks get broken and stay broken by other IMAP client access. Thunderbird tends to hang on to them which makes other client access (eg, remote) go read-only, which sucks when your pocket vibrates with "new" mail Thunderbird has conveniently re-marked "unread". Outlook Express does this better.

I'd also like to see the reading pane status selectable per account (eg, on for news, off for email).

But development seems pretty bare.

Re:The real story (1)

garett_spencley (193892) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481764)

"Another thing: does Mozilla spinning off Thunderbird mean that it will get even a smaller share of their revenue for R&D? Tbird has not exactly been growing and improving by leaps and bound, and the Mozilla foundation seems to have little interest in it. Spinning it off into a separate organization sounds suspiciously like they're just plain cutting it loose. And if the new TBird org can't find it's own funding, the mail client's future is anything but bright."

As a Thunderbird user I consider that to be a good thing. If the Mozilla foundation isn't interested in it's development then I would rather see it fall into the hands of people who are.

And if no one is (which I think unlikely) then eventually I will just have to stop using Thunderbird and find something that is under active development.

Re:The real story (1)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482690)

I'm figuring they end up getting shoved to the corner just like Seamonkey.Which is really sad,as all they seem to care about anymore is Firefox.I've personally converted more people to Seamonkey(and I wish they'd change the stupid name!) than I ever could to Firefox.You'd be surprised how many folks are still using Win9x or Win2K(I even have a customer that refuses to let go of his WinME,yuck!) and are still using an unsupported IE with OE.And while it would be too difficult to talk them into learning two separate programs,having their email just a click away has made Seamonkey a self seller.They especially love how Seamonkey will give them a little alert when they are browsing so they know when a new email has arrived.It is just a shame how they seem to care only about Firefox since the Google deal.


And does anyone know if Seamonkey is getting paid for having Google as the default search engine? Because if Mozilla is keeping the cash the developers should sell it to another engine.I just hope Seamonkey keeps going instead of being another Netscape.It is always nice to have choices.

Re:The real story (1)

zsau (266209) | more than 6 years ago | (#22483444)

What I wish is that Thunderbird behaved like a normal program on my computer. Compared to Evolution or Balsa, Thunderbird is a lot more polished and useful. But I have given up trying to use it, because it has silly problems like not mixing in completely with my current theme (it seems to be adapting it somehow, treating my computer like it's running Windows and then converting the current theme along those lines, instead of just using my theme), and not obeying my system settings (for instance, for most programs, like Balsa or Evolution or Epiphany or whatever, I can simply change or delete a key binding by pressing the key when I'm on that menu — because I have clumsy fingers I keep typing "Control-Arrows-(release control) Enter-Enter", for instance (to delete a section of the email), but I release control on the other side of pressing enter — this means I accidentally send an unfinished email. But as far as I can tell, there's no way to get rid of that dangerous feature!

It is because of this that I use Balsa at the moment, which mostly works as an email client, but misses a number of features I'd like. It's just, Balsa mightn't be finished, but it never tries to work against me. Thunderbird does. The biggest and best change Thunderbird and Firefox could make is to abandon their ugly, buggy, incomplete and unnecessary proprietry cross-platform toolkits, which are nothing but trouble, and simply use Gtk+ on Linux, Cocoa on the Mac, and whatever it is that Windows uses this week (Windows Forms I think it's called?).

I can has program improvements? (2, Interesting)

Eggplant62 (120514) | more than 6 years ago | (#22480958)

Rofl, like the folks concerned would see them. Anyway, what would be nice would be an effective filtering mechanism for Usenet groups. I try to use the current filtering system in Thunderbird and it just sucks all kinds of ass. I'd also love to see a way to rescind filtering and accidentally killed threads.

Yeah, I know, wishful thinking, good luck.

Re:I can has program improvements? (1)

letxa2000 (215841) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482908)

I use Thunderbird but have been frustrated from the beginning. Am I the only one that has problems with the Thunderbird editor mangling the formatting?

If I reply to someone, I can no longer effectively quote/reply in-line because it either inserts too many blank lines to separate the quoted text, or not enough blank lines and my reply is stuck right to the reply text with no blank line between them.

And sometimes even if I'm just composing an email from scratch with no quoted message at all, it sometimes just mysteriously takes blank lines out of my message so it looks like I can't even format my paragraphs correctly.

Am I really the only one that has this problem? If I can't fix it I'm so close to switching email programs... I just don't know what I should use instead.

Open source and standards ftw! (2, Insightful)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481020)

All these stories about open source software seem to be joining in a symphony that is ringing a death knoll for MS.
I guess not everything needs to be a MS killer, but where will they be once jabber based instant messaging, calDAV calendaring, and SSL IMAP are commonplace, easily integrated, federated and administered?
What FireFox did to their web dominance, these open protocols, standards and software will do to the rest of their business. (Embarrass and decimate.)

What advantages will Exchange have over a system that integrates and works nicely on a dozen different hardware devices, from servers to phones, without having to pay MS a single dollar?
Sure they'll still have their Visual Studio and Office, but boy they'll be crying over how much money they should/could have been making.
Consider their failures:
-XBox
-XBox 360 (May be early to call it a complete failure, but now that HD-DVD is dead, sony will ride them like a reverse cowgirl)
-Live? wtf?
-MSN Search
-Windows Mobile

They are truly stuck in a rut, a rut that seems to be getting deeper and deeper. (I should add...Thanks to Linux, Mozilla, FOSS, open-ness in general and other ideas that MS simply can't comprehend.)

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (4, Insightful)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481116)

All these stories about open source software seem to be joining in a symphony that is ringing a death knoll for MS.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I've been hearing that for at least 10 years now, be it with Linux or other non-Microsoft software ventures. Truth is, Microsoft is still there and it still beats the crap out of most of its competition by virtue of its monopolies.

I love Linux as much as the next guy, I use it professionally, but Microsoft is still the big rabid dog of a bad software company it's always been, and it won't go away anytime soon.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (1)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481680)

I'd just like to add my agreement here...

Microsoft won't die tomorrow morning. It won't die next year.

IMHO, it'll take about a decade to push them down to a 33% desktop market share, so long as things keep trending as they are now. After all, it took 8 years just to push them down below 90%, and a lot of that was Apple's doing in the desktop realm. Ubuntu helped a bit, and it didn't hurt that Windows Vista blew chunks. But... even on a favorable curve, it'll still take awhile to dislodge the monopoly to a point where they're forced to play nice or die... and this depends on things growing as they have so far, for both Linux and Apple alike.

/P

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22482016)

I kind of agree. I think too much is made of beating Windows and replacing it with any alternative, where most users don't want to buy in to that zealotry (or perfect ideal, depending on your viewpoint). What would make a big difference is to let users keep Windows and slowly undermine the applications they run on there - reducing the marketshare of Office would stick MS where it really hurts.

If thunderbird could beat Outlook and Exchange then that'd be quite something - but it'd need to integrate very easily with Active Directory, and Exchange calendaring (or no existing Outlook user could user it). Nobody really cares about integrated IM though, the challenge lies in making it work with what the user currently uses.

That's partly how firefox made it - you could replace IE with it and continue to do everything you used to do. Its a shame I cannot replace Outlook with Thunderbird in the same way.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22481914)

"Truth is, Microsoft is still there and it still beats the crap out of most of its competition by virtue of its monopolies."

But not in Outlook's case. My company just got bought by IBM. We transitioned from Outlook to Lotus. Jesus Christ I wish we still had outlook. Lotus 8 is at shit-load better than 7 at least...

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (1)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481918)

You're right, in that MS still beats teh crap out of most of its competition by the virtue of its monopolies.
I do believe, however, that the landscape has changed much in recent years, to the point where people are understanding that adopting open standards, as opposed to proprietary ones (ie. Exchange) is good for the long-term business.
I don't believe that that used to be one of the concerns in the past, before FFox came on scene and shown that a better product can in fact, be better and open source, than something that MS squirted out.
But no, MS won't go away anytime soon, I know that, however, I think that open standards and software now hitting the enterprise and business market are the beginning of the end of their brash dominance.

Someone in an earlier post mentioned I forgot to add Zune to my list of failures.
What's a Zune? another one of their compact devices designed to use their fantastic Mobile OS? Kinda like the Origami? Kudos to you MS on building integrating capable software and devices and being the model company to show how well your software (doesn't) works on the very devices you've made.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (5, Funny)

eln (21727) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481122)

That's a nice thought, but if I had a dime for every time someone said a particular piece of technology would be the death of Microsoft, I could buy Microsoft and kill it myself.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (3, Insightful)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481250)

You're absolutely right. I'm sure that the XBox360's higher install number and sales rate that keeps pace with the PS3 [vgchartz.com] are all just a backwards sign of it's utter failure. With the rate that Windows is losing ground to Linux, it'll only be another 30 years before it's no longer the dominant player! Windows Mobile also being the dominant player in that field is a fluke, I'm sure, and it's going to fail soon. When you take those factors into account, they've only got a few decades of ridiculous power and profits! THEY'RE DOOMED!!!!

That is, unless they break into a new market or do just about anything else that keeps the status quo. Also, since Firefox hasn't cut IE's install rate to below 50%, the terms "embarrass" and "decimate" might be premature, although decimate does technically apply.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (2, Informative)

Penguinisto (415985) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481946)

Two words concerning Xbox 360: Channel Stuffing. Factor that out (and use a halfway accurate chart this time, Sport [vgchartz.com])*. Now couple it with the device's inability (still) to turn any profit at all?

Suddenly things don't look so good for the 360.

Even worse news? Compare this little puppy [vgchartz.com] for growth rates.

By the by, Windows Mobile is now being outsold by iPhones in the North American market, and Everyone Else ('cept Palm) in the global markets (ref: Canalys; will dredge up on request).

Microsoft has exactly two main sources of income: Windows licensing, and Office licensing. If they start losing out on those (which looks to be the case as time passes), the whole house of cards will come crashing down on them.

* you used game sales in your chart, not device sales. You also used a single week of game sales as a metric, which is kinda dumb).

Like I said elsewhere, MSFT won't die tomorrow, but I certainly wouldn't count on building an entire career based on 'em...

/P

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (1)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482238)

you used game sales in your chart, not device sales. You also used a single week of game sales as a metric, which is kinda dumb
I was using the total install numbers on hardware, which is on the front page. I was also linking to the site in general, so I apologize for the miscommunication.

That being said, the chart you linked to shows more installed PS3's for the time since they were launched, but it doesn't change the fact that the XBox has more systems sold. Does it look like the XBox may fail in the future? Yes, but that's only a prediction. For right now, it's not a failure, it's doing quite well.

My point isn't that Microsoft won't tank in the future, it's that predictions of any sort are going to have a chance to fail, and even if the prediction's true, Microsoft's doing extremely well and can live off of its momentum for a long time yet. Celebrating their passing is premature at best.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22482442)

You do realise vgchartz are a laughing stock who guesstimate numbers from a tiny sample size?

Try looking up public sources of numbers collated and published from NPD. You might learn that for 2007, worldwide, PS3 outsold Xbox360. Or that through Jan 08 in America, PS3 outsold Xbox360 [neogaf.com] (and almost caught up with the supply constrained Wii).

Xbox360 is currently in a bit of a rut, and Sony is gaining some momentum despite being way behind.
But while MS are happy to throw money around, does the perceived success or failure of Xbo360 really matter? They have their MS controled set-top box ready in living rooms around the world, which I imagine is all they really want.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22482624)

Bullshit.

With HD-DVD dead, we know all sales of the Xbox 360 are for games.

But with Blu-ray pulling ahead, and stories like Samsung being sued for defective players [slashdot.org] reminding us that the PS3 is the only forwards-compatible Blu-ray player, you can't help but wonder how many PS3s are being used as Blu-ray players.

Thankfully Sony knows the answer: 87% [punchjump.com].

So subtract 87% of the PS3 market, and you have a much better idea of how many PS3s are being used for gaming. Which really doesn't paint the Xbox 360 is that bad a light.

The current sales bump is solely due to Blu-ray. The analysts know it and Sony knows it. The PS3 is dead as a gaming platform and was still-born as an online gaming network.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (2, Insightful)

moderatorrater (1095745) | more than 6 years ago | (#22483002)

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The PS3 is certainly seeing inflated sales from being a bluray player, but you're going to have to make the argument that this marginalizes the numbers. Look at the sales of Devil May Cry 4 and you can see that they're roughly proportional to the install base of the two systems, ie the ratio of PS3 DMC 4 sales to XBox DMC4 sales is close to the ratio of XBox machines to PS3 machines.

Next, you're argument that 87% bought the system for watching movies isn't accurate, since the article doesn't claim they only watch movies, just that they had watched movies. Since they've offered free movies with the PS3 for most of its lifespan so far, most people who bought one for any reason have probably watched a blu ray movie on it.

To sum up, your argument relies on the supposition that buying the PS3 for one reason means that you're not going to use it for other reasons. This is silly.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22483412)

I feel bad for all the morons buying DMC4 for the PS3, when the Xbox 360 version is not only graphically superior, it also doesn't have that 20-minute startup cost and has load times that can only be called longer if you're timing them with a stopwatch.

DMC4 is a good argument for why the Xbox360 will succeed. It was designed for the PS3 from the start - but the PS3 version is worse in every way!

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (2, Informative)

cp.tar (871488) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482872)

Also, since Firefox hasn't cut IE's install rate to below 50%, the terms "embarrass" and "decimate" might be premature, although decimate does technically apply.

Well, that depends on where you live.
In certain parts of Europe, Firefox has 40%+ market share. Count in some other alternative browsers and there you have it... IE's dominance is dwindling.
Of course, nothing Mozilla does will be enough to lower the IE install base, since IE comes bundled with Windows, but OS X and Linux are slowly making inroads there as well.

It will take time, and MS is still very strong, but things are changing.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (2, Insightful)

jdoss (802219) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481256)

I'm far from an MS fanboy but the only real failure I see on your list of "failures" is MSN Search. XBox did well enough, and XBox 360 is a definite win to the extent that it has creamed Sony with this generation of consoles so far. Live is a rebranding of their MSN services just as they've had forever... it can certainly be considered a failure in that it doesn't bring in the money it needs to or should, but I see that set of services as a stop-gap between them in everyone else. No need to give other companies the power and money that all those unsolicited IE programs opening to the Live homepage brings. And Windows Mobile? No doubt its crap, but there's also no doubt that its one of the standard bearers on the mobile market to this day.

Now if you think that Blue-Ray's win will give Sony a leg up, I can cede that point to you, but if there's no backward compatibility between the PS3 and earlier PS consoles, you're in for a rude awakening. People who've done their homework who care about it are not pleased. And people who have not done their homework and buy one anyway will be getting some severe buyer's remorse. Sony's fragmented their PS3 line 3 or 4 ways due reduce cost. Blue-Ray wins but it does not necessarily follow, at this point, that the PS3 will gain ground to the degree that people expect. The PS3 is, in the end, a gaming machine. Taking away the backwards compatibility aspect is a bad, bad decision I think they'll regret.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (1)

ivan256 (17499) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481424)

In terms of profitability, the only success I see on his list is Windows Mobile. I'm not sure what metric you'd use to call it a failure, unless you're counting "usability"... But that's subjective. Any reasonable business person would call it a success. The 360 is currently in third place in week-to-week sales, so it's still too early to call it a "success". Especially since it's lost such an enormous amount of money, while it's competitors (the Wii and the PS3) are currently selling at a profit.

You also seem to be misinformed. Only one PS3 model has lost backwards compatibility. If you want it, just buy the model that has it. Seems simple enough.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (2, Informative)

Toonol (1057698) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481810)

From what I understand, Sony is manufacturing two models of the PS3. The less expensive (presumably more numerous) model has no compatibility, while the more expensive model has software compatibility. The model with 100% hardware compatibility has been discontinued.

This business of both Sony and Microsoft manufacturing numerous versions of their consoles, with slightly differing capabilities, is terrible. Who wants to do research before buying a game console? Another thing Nintendo did right.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (1)

PitaBred (632671) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482466)

Microsoft also has a 16.4% [reghardware.co.uk] failure rate of the 360's that's seriously eating into their possibility of profiting from it. I suppose they'll write the couple billion that they're in the hole on that endeavor off as a marketing expense...

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (1, Offtopic)

Planesdragon (210349) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481358)

Consider their failures:
-XBox
-XBox 360 (May be early to call it a complete failure, but now that HD-DVD is dead, sony will ride them like a reverse cowgirl)
Neither the original nor the 360 can be justifiably called "failures." "Unprofitable" maybe, but not "failures."

I wouldn't buy a PS3 over a 360 (I have neither) unless the PS3 has at least a 20% price advantage. In fact, I've recommended the 360 to people who have absolutely no interest in playing games, just because it's the easiest media-center-extender to buy.

MS is burning cash to get market share, and it's working.

OTOH, if you slap on "Zune" to that list you've got something.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (1)

TooMuchToDo (882796) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482674)

And I don't care how many dividends they give out to shareholders, they'll still have cash to burn to buy market share.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (3, Funny)

heffrey (229704) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481492)

What's a "death knoll"? Are MS going to be wiped out by some evil killer hillock? Or will it they be put out to graze on a grassy knoll?

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (1)

Tibor the Hun (143056) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481728)

Oh, geez, you've got me. The troll/insightful in me made me so feverish, I got my words confused.
But thanks for the pretty imagery :)

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (2, Funny)

nuzak (959558) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482270)

It's a death gnoll, a really nasty breed of hyena-man.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (4, Interesting)

slyn (1111419) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481574)

*And yet MS still controls an approximate 75% [hitslink.com] of the web browser market, Windows still controls an approximate 90% [hitslink.com] of the OS market, and there has been more than 2x [nexgenwars.com] as many 360's as there are PS3s sold.

As much as I might like Linux and OSS ideologies to replace Windows and MS, I honestly believe you would have to be living in dream land to think that MS is all of the sudden going to implode, let alone do it within the next 2-3 years. Just like Firefox has slowly and steadily taken market share from IE6+7, Linux will slowly and steadily take market share from Windows.

Why won't it happen fast? Firefox is a (if not the) poster child OSS program, and receives a significant amount of word of mouth advertising. It is free (in many ways, but cost is the only one that the vast majority cares about), and is almost 100% of the time rated as better than IE in reviews. And yet despite all these reasons its (albeit growing) market share is around 15%, compared to the vastly worse IE 6's 42ish% and IE 7's 32ish%.

Obviously, technical superiority and free-ness are not good enough reasons to get everyone to switch over in one big surge. Over time as Linux and OSS software in general continues to improve, the momentum to change will increase, but this change will not happen overnight. Here's to hoping for a majority market share in the next 3-4 years, but I wouldn't bet money on anything less than 6 years, and I wouldn't be surprised if it took 10 or more.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic or defeatist, but rather realistic. If it weren't for the fact that I am a tech nerd and encouraged people to switch I think nearly all my friends and family would still be using IE, let alone know what Linux is.

*Disclaimer: Yes I realize no market share analyzer is 100%, or even 90% accurate, and yes I realize these often have a tendency to under-represent Linux, but these statistics do give at least a general idea of where the majority is at.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (1)

Eggplant62 (120514) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481722)

And yet despite all these reasons its (albeit growing) market share is around 15%, compared to the vastly worse IE 6's 42ish% and IE 7's 32ish%.


Well, it's kind of hard to supplant the de facto browser installed with every copy of the Windows OS, don't you think? It's not for lack of trying or any fault of Mozilla's that Firefox isn't on top. Add to that the lack of any kind of decent ActiveX script reader for Firefox so that it might work well with all the idiotic corporate IE-only applications, and there's the problem in a nutshell.

Monopoly has it's influences, eh?

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22481672)

Get back to me when Linux and Thunderbird can easily, quickly sync with smartphones. Look at the device compatibility list for OpenSync, which is by far the best tool out there for this purpose, and you'll see how painfully short it is. Then look at the installation/HOWTO for using it. What's not to love about having to use the command line and manually editing configuration files to get contacts on my phone?

And by the way, it works with Evolution - not Thunderbird. Well played. (Not that there's anything wrong with Evolution.)

Until this problem is solved, you can forget about Linux replacing Windows even despite what you have said about XMPP, calDAV, and anything else. Furthermore, Firefox hasn't defeated Internet Explorer, and Mozilla hasn't defeated Microsoft. Firefox is a competitor to Internet Explorer - a pretty popular one at that. Competition is a good thing for everyone involved.

I'm for the scenario you've put forward, but I just don't see it happening any time soon while smartphones (I mean, hello, everybody in business has one now, and they're virtually useless with Linux) have such terrible support. Funambol is a neat system for maybe narrowing some of the gaps there, but it's still not enough I don't think.

I'd like to switch my business over to Linux, and I think we'd be alright replacing Microsoft Office with OpenOffice.org (and OpenGroupware, perhaps, if needed) and the Adobe software we use now with Inkscape and, I guess, GIMP for what few things it's any good at doing. To tell you the truth, this smartphone issue is a killer for me. The sooner that's resolved, the sooner Linux might actually be able to make in-roads. They just can't continue to lag behind everything if they're serious about competing in this sector (which they may not be; after all, who is "we" anyway?).

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (1)

NMagic (982573) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482156)

Not to mention the fact that the rest of my family can't function using a non-Windows computer. Even with how easy Ubuntu is, you have to admit that the daily, run-of-the-mill person will have trouble trying to figure out what to do with it. MS has that market cornered because not only is it easy to use, everybody around you uses it too. It's been firmly embedded in almost every industry as the desktop OS of choice, and would be way too painful for most industries to change. Call me a pessimist, but I don't see MS going anywhere... Ever.....

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22482272)

-XBox 360 (May be early to call it a complete failure, but now that HD-DVD is dead, sony will ride them like a reverse cowgirl)

Are you high? The only connection between the 360 and HD-DVD was an add-on drive that added nothing to the console's capability as a game system. If you are one of the handful of people that bought it, disconnect it to make space for a Blu-Ray player. It's true that Blu-Ray gives PS3 games better storage capacity than the DVDs on the 360, but that's been true since launch, and has nothing to do with HD-DVD.

Even if the failure of HD-DVD somehow meant the PS3 is somehow more attractive as a *game system* because it can play Blu-Ray movies, there is nothing preventing Microsoft from releasing a Blu-Ray add-on drive for the 360, save for perhaps how it would play in the press since Blu-Ray is perceived (wrongly [wikipedia.org]) as Sony's format.

Vendor lock in (1)

headbulb (534102) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482330)

The reason that Microsoft has such a stronghold in certain markets is they have vendor lock in.

Office formats in the past weren't easily usable with other office suites.
Exchange server doesn't work with other email clients without a plug in. (this is for the extra stuff such as calender in outlook)
MSN messenger would not be easy to bring over to the jabber platform for the simple reason that Microsoft decided it would be a good idea to use users email addresses as users login names. Try explaining to a user why they need another @example ontop of their login. End user confusing yes.

The live services. Is one of the most confusing branding methods. Is it for the xbox is it a messaging platform? It's more of a umbrella brand that includes everything.

Windows mobile, I don't know how they got that on so many mobiles other then at the time people wanted features that other operating systems didn't offer (Palm, Symbian.) Hopefully there will be more choice once Android hits (which I really like, it does things right for a mobile platform)

So will Microsoft go away as soon as we would like. Well no unfortunately but the options of replacement have been good and are eating away at Microsoft's once empire. This discussion could go on for a long time as to what is vendor locked in or why people keep going with a broken methodology.

They (the people) don't know better, and Microsoft takes advantage of that. That's what I attribute most of it too.

Re:Open source and standards ftw! (1)

0racle (667029) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482922)

Thanks dude. I just spent all day trying to find a decent Exchange replacement and I needed a laugh.

another run around the block (1)

westlake (615356) | more than 6 years ago | (#22483198)

All these stories about open source software seem to be joining in a symphony that is ringing a death knoll for MS.

Allow me - again - to propose a moratorium on all "Microsoft is dying" posts until all the following conditions are met:

1 MS stops reporting 15%-20% growth each quarter.

2 MS stops reporting 30% growth in "emerging markets," 20% growth in the EU and 15% growth in the U.S.

3 MS no longer has the energy or the resources to underwrite projects such as the design and launch of a communications satellite for Africa. Microsoft plans comms satellite for Africa [africaninformer.com]

4 MS stops paying dividends.

5 MS no longer holds $20 billion - $30 billion - $40 billion in cash.

6 MS begins borrowing money to meet its expenses - not to finance a takeover of Yahoo!

Better Search Sounds Good (4, Interesting)

bn0p (656911) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481032)

I would like to see a search capability like that in the defunct Bloomba e-mail client (now the basis of WordPerfect Mail). The entire text of every piece of mail was indexed which made searches very fast. It was also easy to set up virtual folders (based on search criteria) to associate your e-mail according to several criteria. A given mail could appear in several folders, not just one. The company called it a Personal Content Database [vldb.org]. The Bloomba client also incorporated a calendar and an anti-spam proxy.

The company producing the software, Stata Labs [statalabs.com], sold the technology to Yahoo in 2004. It has since been resold to Corel for use in their WordPerfect Mail.


Never let reality temper imagination

Re:Better Search Sounds Good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22481902)

Umm... You mean Apple Mail with Spotlight and Smart Mailboxes? Cause I have that right now....

Shared Calendars are what's needed (4, Insightful)

sasha328 (203458) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481062)

Email is not what people are after. Dopn't get me wrong, people want to send and receive email. That's a no brainer, but, there are a myriad to clients out there that do the job quite well. Some of the clients are stand-alone and some are web based.
Some of the clients also offer a "calendar" where you can store events.
However, what the world needs (to avoid Microsoft's dominance) is a shared calendaring system integrated into the same email client. I use Outlook at work. At the end of the day, I care nothing what I use to send emails with, but I do care that I can view others' calendars in Outlook, and that I can send them invites and see if they've got something in the calendar or not. That is what many people are looking for, not another email client.
This will never happen on the client side if there is no server backend to manage the data and the sharing permissions.
If you build it, people will come.
My two cents.

Re:Shared Calendars are what's needed (4, Insightful)

ivan256 (17499) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481234)

You're right, of course...

However, I can't help but think we'd see double digit percentage productivity gains if such things didn't exist. Shared calendars mean that people can see you're available and book you up solid with meetings, leaving no time to work. There isn't even plausible deniability, because they can see your calendar. You have to schedule fake appointments for yourself to get some time to work.

Re:Shared Calendars are what's needed (1)

jalefkowit (101585) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481534)

Any good shared-calendar system (including, yes, MS Exchange) will allow you to reject meetings that people propose for your calendar. They will even let you propose alternate dates and times for the meeting so that you can still have the meeting but at a time that's better for you.

Re:Shared Calendars are what's needed (1)

kamatsu (969795) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482028)

Even so, the advent of such huge PIM and shared calendar technology, combined with the increasing use of blackberries, has made some corporate friends of mine never stop working. The technology enables their work to follow them home. My father had to turn off his blackberry when he got home because people would keep emailing and asking for meetings and so forth sometimes at horrible hours of night.

Re:Shared Calendars are what's needed (2, Insightful)

Knara (9377) | more than 6 years ago | (#22483132)

Even so, the advent of such huge PIM and shared calendar technology, combined with the increasing use of blackberries, has made some corporate friends of mine never stop working. The technology enables their work to follow them home. My father had to turn off his blackberry when he got home because people would keep emailing and asking for meetings and so forth sometimes at horrible hours of night.
It is their choice to continue in jobs that encourage this sort of coworker behavior. Then again, if you're working for a very large (multinational?) corporation, the meeting request you just got at 1am may have come from someone in Germany. where it's an acceptable hour to be doing such things. But, then again, it's obvious that it wasn't a large problem for your father, since he TURNED IT OFF at night. Doesn't sound like it was much of an issue, does it.

WebDAV/CalDAV (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22481666)

Lightning supports both WebDAV [wikipedia.org] and CalDAV [wikipedia.org], which allow calendar sharing. It plays with google calendar & Apple's iCal. It just doesn't play with Outlook/Exchange.

Evolution works with exchange, as does MS's Outlook Web Access.

Re:Shared Calendars are what's needed (1)

Techman83 (949264) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482576)

Yes Shared calenders that work! Outlook _with_ exchange does all sorts of sharing, but it's an absolute abortion. I guess I was spoilt with Groupwise, because it did it so much better.

Re:Shared Calendars are what's needed (5, Insightful)

rabiddeity (941737) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482756)

I agree that calendars are necessary for corporate deployment. But while you mentioned other stand-alone clients, where are they? I need something that doesn't suck security-wise (*cough* Outlook Express), is supported on multiple platforms (sorry KMail), isn't packaged with a bunch of other stuff I don't need (no thanks, Seamonkey), is full-featured and graphical (I love you pine and mutt, but most users won't deal with a CLI), and doesn't have annoying interface bugs (Thunderbird, you are really on the edge here). First and foremost, I want a program that does email perfectly. A stand-alone client like that currently does not exist. (And don't tell me to go to webmail, I'm not going to put up with waiting several seconds between each email, and I need to be able to read my old mail and compose new mail on an airplane.)

Corporate users should have a "corporate plugin" with all the calendaring and shared address book stuff in there. Have it as an option during install, sure, but if I'm a home user I don't want the clutter of Outlook and I certainly don't want the bloat.

Re:Shared Calendars are what's needed (1)

MojoStan (776183) | more than 6 years ago | (#22483314)

I need something that doesn't suck security-wise (*cough* Outlook Express),
I'm not disagreeing with your comment, but the free, supposedly more secure successor to Outlook Express (for Windows XP) and Windows Mail (Vista) has been released by Microsoft: Windows Live Mail [live.com] (more info here [microsoft.com]). I haven't used it yet, but it looks like a significant improvement over Outlook Express and a smaller improvement over Windows Mail. It's definitely not as full-featured as Thunderbird, but it's a must-upgrade for all those users who've gotten used to the Outlook Express interface.

So when we point out the inadequacies of current email clients, our criticisms of Outlook Express should be updated to criticisms of Windows Live Mail.

Flooded client market; use standards (1, Interesting)

Rinisari (521266) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481402)

I think that the IM market is already quite flooded with competitors (competing protocols and competing unofficial multi-protocol clients). The most intelligent thing for Mozilla to do is perhaps build its own @mozillamail.com email system (or similar domain) with easy Thunderbird integration and integrate it with an XMPP client/server. XMPP is the way to go these days. In that way, folks who already have XMPP accounts (Livejournal users, Gmail users, and soon AIM users) can contact those using the Mozilla Mail service.

I am pretty sure (1)

Lewrker (749844) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481414)

another obscure IM client with a neurotic-friendly GUI will catch on in all the heavily saturated markets.

Encryption (5, Interesting)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481482)

Personally, what I'd like to see is an e-mail client that comes by default with working encryption... that is to say, it tells other e-mail clients what encryption choices it offers and learns from messages it receives and always chooses the best encryption option when sending messages to others. Further, I'd like that choice to handle when I send a message to a CC list of 30 people, such that it will send messages to all users, some encrypted and some not, but still letting all users get the full CC list for responses. Ideally I'd like to see this built upon an open standard that has buy in not only from the Thunderbird team, but also other major vendors (IBM, Sun, Apple, etc.) as well as other types of software (IM, VoIP, video conferencing, etc.)

Seriously, in this day and age doesn't ist seem idiotic that easy to use encryption is not a built in feature for most e-mail clients? I know why Google hasn't done this (they have a conflict of interest) but what have e-mail software vendors been doing for the last 5 years? How is it possible that someone like Apple hasn't jumped on this and made a snarky advert where the "Mac guy" says, "Oh really, I put my mail in envelopes so random strangers and people at the post office can't read the letters I send to my bank and girlfriend."

Re:Encryption (1)

metamatic (202216) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481600)

Thunderbird comes by default with working encryption. Get yourself a private/public key pair and certificate from Thawte and off you go. When people e-mail you with signed messages, it learns their public keys and you can then send them encrypted mail.

Re:Encryption (2, Interesting)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481736)

Thunderbird comes by default with working encryption.

The last version I tried only supported SMIME which was not on by default and did not generate a key by default. It also was a pain when dealing with any other client since it includes an attachment to the file, which most people assume is a virus. Random chars in your sig are okay, but attachments are not in a normal work environment. It never seemed to learn that those addresses don't have SMIME support and stop sending them and did not handle CC's as I outlined above, making group discussions a mess. Basically, I had to know about it and set it up, and then it was still so user unfriendly I had to disable it. If this has changed in a recent version, please let me know. I'll try it again in a few months anyway, but I don't have a lot of hope.

Re:Encryption (1)

DigitalCrackPipe (626884) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482320)

I've wanted to have encryption on email for at least 10 years, but the biggest reason I haven't pursued it is that I don't really trade many messages with people who would go through the trouble to set up current offerings. And without a universal solution, there just aren't enough people who use the same email service/software to make it practical to install something that lets you communicate with only a small number of people (that's probably why Apple hasn't jumped on this yet - Apple fanatics still communicate with non-believers). The lack of consumer concern (or perhaps understanding) for email privacy seems to be a big reason there aren't a lot of options for it. A simple-to-use solution with cross-platform compatibility (that also has some free implementations) would go a long way towards getting mass-consumer adoption. Maybe the success of DomainKeys is indication that the community (and businesses) might be ready for some improvements to email.

How is the Penelope project affected? (4, Interesting)

robkill (259732) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481560)

Are the Qualcomm developers who support Penelope [mozilla.org] part of this? Will their work be incorporated into Thunderbird, or is it a separate project?

Bring back Eudora! (1)

ChemGeek4501 (1044544) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481572)

After Qualcomm got out of the e-mail client business and handed Eudora over to Mozilla, I wish that the Mozilla folks would just enhance the Eudora program - like they were "supposed to do." Whine-ingly

Re:Bring back Eudora! (0)

zonker (1158) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482160)

^^ Mod this guy up!

Even though Eudora has been EOL for a while now I continue to use it. It's a great program and has a bunch of features Thunderbird lacks that I actually use frequently. I use Thunderbird on my work computer and frankly it doesn't seem like it has made much progress since the Netscape 4.5 days.

If all else fails though it would be nice for the Mozilla guys to write a really good importer to bring over my Eudora stuff for when I do choose to move. It would be especially helpful if the file formats are the same across platforms (I don't know if they are currently or not).

Re:Bring back Eudora! (1)

SeaFox (739806) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482886)

I wish that the Mozilla folks would just enhance the Eudora program - like they were "supposed to do." Whine-ingly

Do you have a source for that?

From what I saw of the news postings, the idea of Mozilla taking over Eudora was never so they could enhance the existing codebase, it was to create a new version of Eudora based on Thunderbird [mozillazine.org].

I personally think the new Eudora was meant to be part of a roadmap where Qualcomm's old product was absorbed into Thunderbird. Interface changes and feature crossover would have eventually made the two projects redundant. It's more an exercise in getting Eudora users to move to Thunderbird instead of going to O.E.

Re:Bring back Eudora! (1)

Yaa 101 (664725) | more than 6 years ago | (#22483094)

You are wrong, the last version of Eudora has been a disaster, especially IMAP, you must not forget that the code is quite old.
It is not uncommon to start coding all over every number of years, often you get into a deadlock after some time, it does not matter how you plan things, also feature requests.
This is because the future does not exist (yet), one can learn while stumbling though and this is what is happening around us all the time.

I personally think that it is possible to let Thunderbird look and feel like Eudora, it just needs the right XUL overlays and graphics.

Instant messaging eh? (0)

obeythefist (719316) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481638)

Thunderbird is a great email client, but I've never seen an open source IM client that's adequately compatible with "the big four", ICQ, MSN, Yahoo and AIM. Trillian does it quite well, they are adding more and more compatibility with the alpha.

Is there a reason the guys at Cerulean can do IM so well where the open source community hasn't to date?

Re:Instant messaging eh? (4, Insightful)

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) | more than 6 years ago | (#22483090)

I've never seen an open source IM client that's adequately compatible with "the big four", ICQ, MSN, Yahoo and AIM.

Did you try Google? For me it lists 13 of them: SIM, Proteus, Pidgen(GAIM), OpenWengo, Miranda, Meebo, Kopete, Fire, Centericq, BitlBee, Ayttm, Agile Messenger, and Adium.

Is there a reason the guys at Cerulean can do IM so well where the open source community hasn't to date?

Trillian is a fine IM client, provided you only use Windows (don't need suport for other OS's) and don't mind paying for interoperability with some protocols. I used to use it when trapped on a Windows box at work years ago. That said, claiming the open source clients can't compete or don't exist just exposes that you've never bothered to look. For a reality check go look at the comments on arstechnica when the Trillian OS X client was announced. To summarize, the reaction was a big yawn, since there are several clients available on both Linux and OS X that are free (as in beer) and OSS and are as functional and polished or more. Heck Trillian doesn't even support OTR without a beta version of a third-party plug-in. In fact plug-ins only work on the pro "for pay" version so if you want to chat with something like a Google GTalk user, or XMPP over ZeroConf you have to shell out for a non-crippled version. If you're stuck using just Windows it is a reasonably easy answer, but I'd rather use Pidgin these days and probably Kopete within the next few months now that it is abstracted from the OS enough to be built for Windows and OS X.

Let me answer your question with a question. Why do you assume there are no OSS solutions instead of spending 2 minutes with Google?

Happiness = free, stable centralized calendering (2, Interesting)

Glowing-Wind (786539) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481820)

Having just solved an enigmatic Microsoft Exchange problem that even their own support "specialists" could not assist with, I really hope this is the light at the end of the tunnel for a centralized messaging/calendering platform. Keep it simple, keep it safe. My god, my bosses spend thousands of dollars each year for platform licenses, upgrades and my labor, just to keep the ugly monster that is "groupware" running. All for just a synchronized calendering and email program so the managers can share their agendas without headaches. Assuming that is ALL they use their Outlook clients for, is it the server backend really that complicated to develop? Why is it 2008 and the only other alternatives that I could possibly levee the executives for is IBM and Novell? Until a low-cost or free competitive alternative appears that is stable and reasonably straight-forward to troubleshoot, it sometimes hard not to suspect the industry of committing pseudo Programmed Obsolesce [wikipedia.org].

Re:Happiness = free, stable centralized calenderin (2, Informative)

yelvington (8169) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482846)

You might want to try Citadel [citadel.org], which has integrated email, group conversations and shared calendaring.

What kind of shoes did the milkman wear? (1)

chrishillman (852550) | more than 6 years ago | (#22481998)

I'd like to see an email client that hooked into all of these social networking sites that I use and aggregate the messages from those. I have a few friends that only got email accounts to join Facebook and MySpace (say what you want). My personal email relies much more on contact with web pages than actual "direct" email. Don't get me started with SMS messages (no, the phone kind not the M$ abomination).

I think it is a generational thing but soon email clients will go the way of the milkman, unless some smart company was to bridge the two.

Re:What kind of shoes did the milkman wear? (1)

yelvington (8169) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482310)

I'd like to see an email client that hooked into all of these social networking sites that I use and aggregate the messages from those.


You can subscribe to your Facebook notifications as an RSS feed in Thunderbird, and click to open each message in Firefox.

Give the money to KDE (3, Interesting)

tmk (712144) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482042)

The Mozilla Foundation has the money, bit I like the KDE applications better. Kmail beats Thunderbird by far - and the rest of the kde-pim applications are pretty well developed. Could the Mozilla Foundation join forces with KDE? there are many, many challenges. For example there is an urgend need for an appication that synchronizes with your online calendar and your cell phone. KDE applications could use somthing like Linkification and severals other Mozilla addons, Mozilla needs help in evrythin which is not a browser.

Instant-Messaging Software (1)

EddyPearson (901263) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482092)

"ZDNet UK's coverage leads with the interest the new organization has in developing instant-messaging software."
Yeah, because thats really what we need right now, yet ANOTHER IM protocol/app.

XMPP is king, upgrade your clients accordingly.

If Mozilla want to do something useful, they should develop a Evolution server suite, which should be AS EASY TO USE and as powerful as Exchange, and I mean GUI's for the 90% of sysadmins who don't want to spend years reading manpages and breaking config files. Then you'll really see Evolution Client adoption in businesses.

The open source movement could have real potential if there where more collaboration between projects. This I feel will always be a thorn in the side of the OS movement, as collaboration is MUCH easier in person and with money to throw at problems. It'd be great to see some projects forking to try some collaborations. Like a uber-groupware package :p

People ultimately choose Microsoft software because everything comes neatly packaged, and slots together wonderfully easily for a beginner. Exchange working with Active Directory, and Office on the client machines, is very easy to set up and maintain, they work together in harmony, and by and large, it doesn't break. People and monopoly commissions bitch constantly about Microsoft's reluctance to open its protocols, to allow similar interoperability with other systems, but the best way to beat them, is to provide to decent competition.

Compare this to a Linux setup. You'll need to download many different packages, and glue them together with config files to get a comparable setup. Even then, lets face it, working with config files, and with Linux setup in general is nothing like as intuitive as the Microsoft experience. (Don't take from this that I don't like Linux, far from it, it is my OS of choice, but it simply doesn't appeal to non techies)

That is all.

Gmail for now (1)

dj_tla (1048764) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482472)

The two things that keep me using gmail:
  - Grouping related emails into conversations
  - Unobtrusive chat built-in

I don't use chat enough to remember to start up MSN or AIM or whatever when I'm at the computer. But I'll chat occasionally on gmail because it's always open if I'm at my computer anyway.

Put those two things into Thunderbird and I'll use it.

No mention of Eudora (2, Interesting)

Redbaran (918344) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482564)

So with there being no mention of the Eudora code base that Qualcomm gave to the Mozilla folks, does this mean there are no plans for those features in Thunderbird? Does Eudora only have implications for the Penelope [mozilla.org] project?

I think it would be a shame if all we got out of Qualcomm's Eudora are some very superficial changes (new buttons, etc). Then again, maybe I have an overly rosey memory of Eudora and it really didn't have much to contribute.

While I have my little soap-box, how come Thunderbird doesn't start off with a Junk email folder so that I can mark something as Junk and have it go to that folder? Apparently, there are people out there who don't get Junk email!

How About Not Losing E-Mail As A Priority? (1)

xanadu113 (657977) | more than 6 years ago | (#22482808)

How about not losing e-mail as a priority for Thunderbird 3.0? Or an automated backup system? I've had Thunderbird lose all my e-mail randomly, the profile became corrupted and there was no easy way to retrieve it.. (Which is why I use IMAP now.. =) )

firefox? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22482884)

that shit sucks. it's for nigger fags.

Well, you know what they say: (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22483134)

You can't polish a thunderturd.
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"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
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