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Diebold Leaks 2008 Election Results

samzenpus posted more than 6 years ago | from the vote-early-vote-often dept.

It's funny.  Laugh. 196

samzenpus writes "With all the scrutiny that Diebold has received in past few years you'd think that they would be more careful but apparently due to a malfunction in some machines, they have leaked the results to the 2008 presidential race early. Hopefully this will be the nail in Diebold's coffin. Surely we have another company in this country that can run a sham election better."

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196 comments

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First Lady! I mean... Um... Post. (-1, Offtopic)

ClintJCL (264898) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575358)

FL^HP!

The Onion on /.? (-1)

DrLang21 (900992) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576330)

Can anyone tell me why is there an article from The Onion on here? Is Slashdot trying to join the ranks of sensationalist reporting?

Re:The Onion on /.? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22576922)

Take a look at the "topic" icon - that foot thingy? If you hold the mouse over it for a second or two, it'll give you a secret message about the reason the article was posted.

end of the internet (5, Funny)

Fusen (841730) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575368)

Wow, embedding a flash movie directly on slashdot. Considering 90% don't RTFA this is going to be the worst /.ing that's ever happened!

Re:end of the internet (-1, Offtopic)

kestasjk (933987) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575446)

I didn't know they posted pure non-tech humor on /.

Re:end of the internet (2, Informative)

Skuldo (849919) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575946)

You're posting on the politics site..

Re:end of the internet (1)

tverbeek (457094) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576860)

I'm pretty sure that electronic voting involves technology.

Re:end of the internet (1)

Firehed (942385) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575808)

Must I append "WTFVITS"* to my sig?

*watch the effing video in the summary, of course.

Re:end of the internet (-1, Troll)

Itninja (937614) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576202)

What Flash? Oh, you must mean the one I just blocked. Make your ad blocker of choice block this: http://www.theonion.com/content/themes/common/assets/videoplayer/flvplayer.swf [theonion.com]
Or better yet, this:
http://www.theonion.com/*

Re:end of the internet (4, Insightful)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576426)

Or, not. Cause, you know, it's not an ad. And it doesn't auto-play, so it's not hurting anyone.

I swear, some people miss no opportunity to smugly mention their ad-blocker.

Re:end of the internet (3, Insightful)

orclevegam (940336) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576480)

I swear, some people miss no opportunity to smugly mention their ad-blocker.
I don't use an ad-blocker, I use a flash-blocker. The fact that it sometimes catches ads is just a bonus.

Re:end of the internet (1)

Angostura (703910) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577346)

I don't use an ad-blocker, I use a flash-blocker.


Hmmm, you say that as if it were a good thing.

Re:end of the internet (1)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576494)

"What Flash? Oh, you must mean the one I just blocked. Make your ad blocker of choice block this..."

I don't have to use the adblocker.

They don't allow Flash here at work. It is a bummer....keeps us out of other sites too.

:-(

Re:end of the internet (5, Insightful)

DirtyHerring (635192) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576558)

They don't allow Flash here at work. It is a bummer....keeps us out of other sites too.

Where do you work? Smart decision makers there.

Re:end of the internet (5, Funny)

v1k (958019) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577290)

Adobe.

Re:end of the internet (1, Funny)

PReDiToR (687141) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576224)

Oh, that greyed out box with the NoScript logo is a Flash movie?
Glad it got caught by NoScript [noscript.net] rather than FlashBlock [mozdev.org] !
Yet, I wonder. Would AdBlock Plus [adblockplus.org] have caught it if those two were disabled?

Re:end of the internet (1)

Fast Thick Pants (1081517) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576544)

Nope... not with the standard EasyList filter subscription, anyway.

They just thought... (1)

an.echte.trilingue (1063180) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577050)

I think it is part of a clever ploy to DOS the onion. What better way to bring their server to a crashing halt than to embed a multimedia element directly into the summary?

This ranks right up there with the time kdawson linked to 84 gigabyte digital photo [slashdot.org] from the summary a couple years ago.

Or at least, the video appears /.'ed for me.

Re:end of the internet (1, Insightful)

thomas.galvin (551471) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577092)

More to the point, why does Slashdot seem to be joining the whole "audio and video" trend? I had hopped that we were still a fairly literate group of people... if I want video and pics, I'll go to digg. I come here to read.

And this isn't in idle...why? (5, Insightful)

Volante3192 (953645) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575376)

Funny, probably, but does it really belong in what's supposed to be a serious section?

Re:And this isn't in idle...why? (1)

dal20402 (895630) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576240)

I had no idea Sam the Eagle had the computer skills to not just post, but login to, /. . Congratulations, birdbrain.

Re:And this isn't in idle...why? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22576830)

Now that's fucking hilarious. A Slashdot subscriber and a Mac luser accusing someone -else- of being incompetent.

Was it worth the money to get that little ASCII-anus next to your name you worthless asswipe?

Re:And this isn't in idle...why? (4, Insightful)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576318)

I think we would first have to argue if Politics (at least this specific form of politics) can really be considered serious in the first place.

Re:And this isn't in idle...why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22577196)

Funny, probably,
Spoken like a true Nerd.

Re:And this isn't in idle...why? (1)

Maxmin (921568) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577330)

Because it's April F ... uh, nevermind.

Thats bad? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22575398)

With the votes leaked the raw data is out...so there was no time to apply "democracy" to the data.
This way if X won...u cant say it was because there was inner agreement and tempered data.

Yum (0, Redundant)

DoubleDownOnEleven (690607) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575406)

A deliciously onion-y story.
Damn, they got me too. I was calling my co-workers over to see the latest Diebold mistake :(.

Since when was this Digg? (3, Insightful)

Stuart Gibson (544632) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575458)

I didn't realise /. had started posting links to things the submitter happened to find amusing today.

Re:Since when was this Digg? (1)

djupedal (584558) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575530)

./ has successfully climbed out of the social toilet and firmly landed in business sector muck - how common.

Re:Since when was this Digg? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22576868)

Since about 2002.

You must be new here.

Re:Since when was this Digg? (4, Informative)

LarsWestergren (9033) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576920)

I didn't realise /. had started posting links to things the submitter happened to find amusing today.

Then you honestly can't have been here very long. The foot icon appears at least a couple of times a week on the frontpage and indicates a "funny" story submission. If it displeases you, you can filter away these stories in your preferences.

Re:Since when was this Digg? (5, Funny)

crossmr (957846) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577158)

Ron paul 2008!!! digg me down haters!!!

Re:Since when was this Digg? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22577246)

I agree, /. is serious business [slashdot.org] . :)

Re:Since when was this Digg? (1)

MC Negro (780194) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577250)

I didn't realise /. had started posting links to things the submitter happened to find amusing today.
I'm not quite ready to call this Digg until I see at least THREE separate marijuana legalization stories in the RSS feed, each sandwiched between a Ron Pa,er,Obama-worship/Hillary-bashing article, and every other post calling America a fascist police state.

Seriously though - I'm not crazy about this embedded video business. I hope this isn't a trend Slashdot embraces.

It's asinine to post Onion satire as news here (0, Troll)

parboy (574249) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575528)

What is this, April Fool's Day? Don't waste our time with this trash.

Re:It's asinine to post Onion satire as news here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22575782)

Guess we know who woke-and-boke this morning. In the future, hit the bong after you've posted to /. for the day.

Re:It's asinine to post Onion satire as news here (5, Funny)

geminidomino (614729) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576384)

Guess we know who woke-and-boke this morning. In the future, hit the bong after you've posted to /. for the day.
Says the guy who actually just used the 'word' "boke"

Re:It's asinine to post Onion satire as news here (5, Insightful)

justkeeper (1139245) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575796)

You're on slashdot so your time can be wasted.

Re:It's asinine to post Onion satire as news here (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22575952)

Problem is that I already had spread that around the office today, at least 35% though it was real and were outraged.

Most people dont pay attention, and simply believe what is fed to them. Like the submitter.

Re:It's asinine to post Onion satire as news here (1)

spiffyman (949476) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576072)

Most people dont pay attention, and simply believe what is fed to them. Like samzenpus.
There, fixed that for you.

are we seriously reading this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22575544)

Hurrrr let's link to the onion and pretend it's news!

Good God, why is this garbage on the front page?

Uhh - this was on the Onion two days ago??? (0, Redundant)

nickull (943338) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575600)

Did the author check the sources?

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/diebold_accidentally_leaks [theonion.com]

WTF???

Re:Uhh - this was on the Onion two days ago??? (1)

BridgeBum (11413) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576208)

Congratulations, you duplicated the link in the article.

Weirdness with CSS??? (1)

nickull (943338) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576320)

I actually didn't see any earlier link to the Onion (using Safari Version 3.0.4 (5523.15) (webkit engine), Intel MacBook Pro, Leopard 10.5.2) however viewing with FF it shows up. I have screenshots. Bug?? Nevertheless, very funny. The Onion guys must be ROTFL.

Samzenpus is an idiot for posting this. !news (2, Insightful)

mw13068 (834804) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575662)

This is not news, it doesn't matter, it's not /.

Start spamming /. with this stupid shit at your own risk.

not news to YOU maybe (1)

Dahamma (304068) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576658)

I'm sure it was an honest mistake. I don't think Samzenpus realized it was fake. Those Onion guys can be pretty darn tricky!

Re:not news to YOU maybe (2, Insightful)

geekoid (135745) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576788)

If Samzenpus viewed that, an actually thought it was a real news item then they should be immediatly banned from the internet..hell, anything with a computer.

It does belong on /., but under humor because it was pretty damn funny.

Re:Samzenpus is an idiot for posting this. !news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22577286)

rofl, at your own risk? OH NO I might awaken DIRE NERD RAGE

Next thing you know.. (-1, Troll)

HasselhoffThePaladin (1191269) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575750)

...they'll be posting stories from Fox News. FFS, is this the last 2 minutes of Brit Hume's newscast?

Re:Next thing you know.. (3, Insightful)

Jazon Bladen (938809) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576140)

... And MSNBC and CBS will take this news seriously and have a Breaking News story about it, condemning Diebold and demanding that their corporate assets immediately be seized and all contracts immediately anulled and terminated.

Umm... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22577194)

You say that as if it would be a bad thing... :-)

LOL... So with 9 months to go... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22575762)

The dems are already preparing an excuse just in case the improbable happens and they actually manage to lose this presidential election. The sad part is that a lot of people will believe in it.

Holy mother of Moses! (1)

sunami88 (1074925) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575768)

Everybody saw that too, eh? Embedded video in a summary? Someone's playing a trick on us, mark my words. We've all seen deceptive/wrong headlines before, but this is freakin ridiculous.

wrong but that does not matter (2, Insightful)

dario_moreno (263767) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575798)

This time the media (not Diebold) are going to have an apparently nice democrat elected, since Bush went a little too far but it should be obvious that once again it won't make any notable difference. Kucinich, Paul or Nader would have, but this would be against so many interests....

Re:wrong but that does not matter (1, Insightful)

stinerman (812158) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576462)

Meh, I actually think that Obama has a small chance of being a once-in-a-lifetime figure that might get *some* good done. He's certainly the best Democrat since I've been alive (but that isn't saying too much).

I might actually vote for him in the general if he doesn't throw away half his issues like most politicians do after the primary. The Libertarians and Greens are both going to run unpalatable candidates, and Nader will be lucky if he gets on more than a handful of state ballots.

Now in a Clinton-McCain race, all bets are off. I could see myself writing in some joker or just leaving the ballot blank.

Re:wrong but that does not matter (2, Interesting)

0p7imu5_P2im3 (973979) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577272)

Don't give up your vote just because the Republicrats limit you to two bad candidates. Men fought and died to get you that vote. Leaving a ballot blank is the modern day equivalent of burning the US flag.

If you really want to show them who's boss, and prove that they cannot limit your vote, vote for a third party that offers a candidate that is closer to your values than the Republicrats. I'm not a Libertarian shill, but the Libertarians are a freedom-based compromise between the Republicrats. Personally, I was really hoping Ron Paul would run third party or independent, but that football team mentality of "my party first, the country second" runs deep. And there's also Nader, but don't vote for him unless he has enough states such that he could possibly win (same goes for the Libertarians, but they usually get enough states).

Re:wrong but that does not matter (3, Interesting)

geekoid (135745) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576848)

Do you really think those guys would have made a difference?

Really, there not king, they need other people to agree on things,. have two parties not liking you gets exactly nothing done. Granted, getting nothing done would have made the last 7 year much better.

Of course the media screwed Edwards. I didn't want him to win, but the media just ignored him and tried to makes it a Race/Woman thing. frankly I applaud both candidates for not rising to that bait.

Avoid ./ fees... (-1, Flamebait)

djupedal (584558) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575800)

"Did you know subscribers can see articles in the future?"

Did you know that if you link to the RSS feeds you can see the 'articles in the future' w/o having to pay? [slashdot.org]

Bonus tip: Firefox [mozilla.com] with 'Flashblock' will simply frame the courtesy/inane embedded flash and you can once again stuff the ./ editor's head back between his/her ass, where it usually resides.

= = = = = = = = =
Mods please note: This is simply an exercise to determine how to lower karma - if you're just looking to burn points, don't bother wasting them...there are better alternatives than making my day, thanks.

Re:Avoid ./ fees... (1, Flamebait)

Firehed (942385) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575842)

= = = = = = = = =
Mods please note: This is simply an exercise to determine how to lower karma - if you're just looking to burn points, don't bother wasting them...there are better alternatives than making my day, thanks.

Translation: "My karma is teetering on the brink of going negative. Don't mod me down, bro!"

Re:Avoid ./ fees... (0)

djupedal (584558) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576824)

...bump...see above, thanks.

Re:Avoid ./ fees... (1)

djupedal (584558) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577430)

...bump - see above, thanks.

Mod points with nowhere to go (3, Funny)

kenj0418 (230916) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575816)

I have mod points today -- but unfortunately theres no way to mod-down a submitter.

It's not April 1st (1)

suprcvic (684521) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575860)

...so why is this on the front page?

Re:It's not April 1st (1)

Kifoth (980005) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575976)

It's not on the front page any more, but at the time of posting, it is still showing up on the front page's RSS feed (and yes, I did refresh the feed just before posting this...).

Bug?

Whoops. (1)

Damocles the Elder (1133333) | more than 6 years ago | (#22575930)

Is it just me, or did and editor confuse the Slashdot submission form with the idle.slashdot submission form?

Well, now that The Onion is being cited... (2, Insightful)

rickb928 (945187) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576000)

/. is pretty flushed down the toilet.

Secretly, I'm proud of the Onion gang. They succeed at being seen as legit, relevant, newsworthy, true (!), and just plain really neato. The best TV news is still the Jon Stewart stuff. Life goes on.

Glad also to see someone else gets duped. I haven't been taken by The Onion ever, but the Washington Post has caught me a few times...

And since when has it been a wast of OUR time to revel in the delightful agony of a fellow /.'r getting completely fooled, or fooling us in the bargain?

Re:Well, now that The Onion is being cited... (1)

dougmc (70836) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576448)

I doubt the submitter was fooled.


Personally, I liked the piece.

hahaha (1)

Jerzakie (776112) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576048)

Man I watched this on the TiVO Onion News Network last night, this is some seriously funny stuff.

WTF FTW! (1)

meist3r (1061628) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576050)

Come on, really? The Onion news on slashdot? Who approved this post or did I just miss some invisible winking emoticons? And If Diebold had really f*cked it up, no one in the world would be allowed to even know about this -don't you think?

Ha! (1)

interval1066 (668936) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576122)

And my karma sucks.

This is a bit early... (1)

Wolfger (96957) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576146)

...for April Fool's. So much for any pretense Slashdot had of being "news".

Re:This is a bit early... (1)

Wanado (908085) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576308)

Yep, looks like Slashdot was the premature one covering a video article from The Onion before April 1st. Oops.

Re:This is a bit early... (1)

orclevegam (940336) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576414)

I think slashdot may have just jumped the shark... with frickin lasers.

Re:This is a bit early... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22576942)

Slashdot hasn't been news since 1999.

WTF? (1)

GoodNicksAreTaken (1140859) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576232)

WTF? The Onion.. someone at /. woke up with their shoulders between their thighs today!

Are we digg now? (1)

thePowerOfGrayskull (905905) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576236)

Seriously, if I wanted embedded videos about non-tech subjects, that would be my first stop...

Ahhhhh, NoScript. (0)

FrameRotBlues (1082971) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576270)

Thank You, NoScript, for not wasting my bandwidth. I knew I installed you for good reasons.

Before I saw the 'Onion' tags... (2, Interesting)

martinQblank (1138267) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576300)

...I had a brief moment where I seriously considered that it could, in fact, be true. Hmmm.

Re:Before I saw the 'Onion' tags... (1)

MBGMorden (803437) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576984)

Yeah. This stuff is excuseable on April 1st. It's a long running gig on Slashdot and is part of our culture.

But, for all the crap that gets posted, I still expect this to at least TRY to be a "news" site. By simple virtue of this NOT being April 1st, when I first read this I was like "OMG - there's gonna be a shit storm on the news tonight!". Then when I moused over the link and saw "theonion.com" I was just left puzzled as to WTF the editor was thinking - particularly disturbing is that he was both the editor AND submitted. If this guy actually is a paid employee of Slashdot, he should be canned immediately.

Best quote, with /. standard (1)

JackStraight (1024643) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576340)

"If you can't trust your shadowy overlords to keep a secret, what it the purpose of voting in a puppet democracy?"

Fark (2, Insightful)

_14k4 (5085) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576412)

When did this site become fark? This was on _that_ page yesterday, and to top it off, did not involve an embedded flash movie.

That's two posts in one day that have those flash movies in them. One of the reasons I read /. is because there is little network traffic during the visit. I suppose that's not very true anymore, unless I go to the text only theme.

Text only: Doesn't work (1)

wowbagger (69688) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576754)

Sorry, but I am using the text-only theme, and the Flash is STILL there. Of course, Adblock Plus and Flashblock took care of that, but....

Re:Fark (1)

cheesekeeper (649923) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576842)

Are you paying by the byte? Or is someone looking over your shoulder?

Re:Fark (1)

_14k4 (5085) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576894)

You're kidding, right? You do realize that "time to display in the browser" is a function of the amount of data transmitted, no? Also, I'd rather spend the cpu time, and therefore electricity, on rendering crap I want to read.

Funny excerpt (4, Insightful)

guruevi (827432) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576418)

"This country is based on the fantasy that the government is the voice of the people"

Best quote, ever, and true as well.

I agree!!! (2)

astro128 (669526) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576434)

This is not news!!! Humorous, yes but this is a news site and fake news doesn't belong here.... especially when its a video!

The most amusing thing is... (1)

th3rtythr33 (1191409) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576538)

How stuck up you all are. QQ some more. Thank you for approving this. It made my day.

Off topic (1)

mcsqueak (1043736) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576556)

Can a tag this whole 'news' story as offtopic? A fake frickin' VIDEO in the news section?!

Seriously, if I wanted Onion 'news', I'd go to the Onion's website. There is a reason that Slashdot, the NY Times and NPR are on my toolbar as quicklinks... and it isn't because I want fake news.

Solution (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22576598)

Go into Help & Preferences. Look under the section "Your Preferences." Under the subsection "Index," select the "Authors" preferences. Uncheck samzenpus.

THIS JUST IN (4, Insightful)

Gay for Linux (942545) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576642)

BREAKING NEWS STORY: Comments posted on a slashdot thread earlier today indicate its readers are a bunch of humorless, whiny fags.

voting tech IS tech (2, Insightful)

jahknow (827266) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576678)

To the "why is this here on /." replies, I humbly submit the following: Please note that this IS a geek/tech-related post. Note the explicit warning of humor, as exhibited by the big monty python foot icon. If anyone takes offence (sp) at this being yet another US-centric post, well, I'll give you that, but just remember that US political and technological affairs do affect everyone -- just ask an Iraqi... or an Afghani, or an Iranian, or a Cuban, or a Vietnamese... I'm too lazy to link to the 12,000 non-humorous /. posts on the sad state of e-voting in the states, but I'm sure you've already ignored those posts once. That said, the video itself was stale, predictable Onion humor -- you really needn't read past the headline, as there's not much more too it.

In other news...... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22576702)

In a reaction to The Onion news flash China orders 10 million voting machines.

Ok, I've read all of the comments to this point (1)

SpaceLifeForm (228190) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576780)

And, of course, I could not RTFA.

So, tell me, who is going to win?

Depressing.. (1)

StarfishOne (756076) | more than 6 years ago | (#22576940)

Seeing the title of this 'news' item in my RSS reader, I actually thought: 'finally proof that things are not being played in a fair way'. Too bad...

Burried (1)

fulldecent (598482) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577052)

... oh wait

Am I the only one- (1)

Steauengeglase (512315) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577280)

-who hasn't been able to laugh at recent Onion articles?

First it was the one about the nation being happy voer the Patriot's Super Bowl loss and now this. They are slowly becoming the most honest news source out there.

hmm (1)

thatskinnyguy (1129515) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577350)

I couldn't watch much after the 50th time they mispronounced Diebold. It's Dee-bold! Not Die-bold!

Where am I? (1)

pjludlow (707302) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577436)

Did my bookmark take me to Digg somehow with a Slashdot theme? I wouldn't have expected any story from "The Onion" to make frontpage /. material.

Am I the only one that appreciates it? (1)

jfbilodeau (931293) | more than 6 years ago | (#22577454)

I like a good laugh from time to time, and I'm glad /. does not take itself too seriously. I'm sorry and surprised at the amount of people bitching at /. for dropping a bit of humour in my day (that is not MS centric). Cheers, J-F
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